Unvaccinated Kids to be BANNED from School, Health Sec. Hancock

[arista]

Matt Hancock MP
is correct on this
As Measles Kills


MMR vaccine


Get that or get your kid Out of our Schools

[The Slim Reaper]

I agree with Arista, and it's not often I get to say that.

[James]

Where did you read they are to be banned from school?

[Toy Soldier]

Do you have an article on this Arista? As I can't find one anywhere.

Personally I'm pro-vax but 100% against government mandated medical procedures. That's never going to change, I'm afraid.

It's also a debate that gives me a massive headache because the "facts" quoted by militant anti-vaxxer AND by militant pro-vaxxers are all utter ****ing nonsense. Rational debate on this went out of the window a LONG time ago. One side has kids dying instantly of brain swelling on being vaccinated - the other is screeching that everyone is going to die of chicken pox and insisting that childhood survival rates in the modern world are mainly down to vaccination. Hint: they are not, they are thanks to sanitation, antibiotics, hospital care and modern fever reduction and rehydration methods. This is well established statistical fact. But if you try mentioning that in a pro vax debate several people will unfailingly lose their heads and start bawling that we're all going to die of rubella, and that vaccines are 100% safe, which that are not. Go and get vaccine box and read the little leaflet inside.

I'm annoyed just thinking about it right now :joker:

Facts:

- Vaccines carry risks
- The effectiveness of vaccination is over-emphasised in terms of mortality reduction
- However, vaccine-preventable illnesses have a HIGHER RATE of risks of largely the same things as you'd get as a vaccine side-effect
- So vaccines ARE still a good idea if you understand anything about statistical risk. It's safer to have them than to not have them (by a long way)
- ...I'll still never advocate government-mandated medical procedures. Ever. Of any kind.

[Twosugars]

Operations carry risks. So what?

Life is full of risks.

It's a balance of probabilities


Supporting the tory minister on this

[Toy Soldier]

Operations carry risks. So what?

Life is full of risks.

It's a balance of probabilities


Supporting the tory minister on this

Yes and the balance of probabilities is clear that vaccination is the right choice. Choice being the operative word. Enforcing it is a very, very slippery slope.

Just like if you need an operation, getting it is the right choice. I'd be pretty ****ing worried if doctors could just knock you out and put you under the knife without consent. Like I said, no one is ever going to convince me that taking away the right to bodily autonomy is a good idea, for any reason.

[arista]

Where did you read they are to be banned from school?

I think its in Conservative Conference this Weekend Manchester
may go Front Page



Sorry its in a Paper (DM)
Was debated Live on Ch5HD AM
(I record it)

https://metro.co.uk/2019/04/26/children-banned-school-arent-vaccinated-9321592/

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/health-secretary-wont-rule-out-14579302

[The Slim Reaper]

Yes and the balance of probabilities is clear that vaccination is the right choice. Choice being the operative word. Enforcing it is a very, very slippery slope.

Just like if you need an operation, getting it is the right choice. I'd be pretty ****ing worried if doctors could just knock you out and put you under the knife without consent. Like I said, no one is ever going to convince me that taking away the right to bodily autonomy is a good idea, for any reason.

Wouldn't this be done to protect children who are unable to be vaccinated, and as such, rely on herd immunisation to protect them?

[Vicky.]

Do you have an article on this Arista? As I can't find one anywhere.

Personally I'm pro-vax but 100% against government mandated medical procedures. That's never going to change, I'm afraid.

It's also a debate that gives me a massive headache because the "facts" quoted by militant anti-vaxxer AND by militant pro-vaxxers are all utter ****ing nonsense. Rational debate on this went out of the window a LONG time ago. One side has kids dying instantly of brain swelling on being vaccinated - the other is screeching that everyone is going to die of chicken pox and insisting that childhood survival rates in the modern world are mainly down to vaccination. Hint: they are not, they are thanks to sanitation, antibiotics, hospital care and modern fever reduction and rehydration methods. This is well established statistical fact. But if you try mentioning that in a pro vax debate several people will unfailingly lose their heads and start bawling that we're all going to die of rubella, and that vaccines are 100% safe, which that are not. Go and get vaccine box and read the little leaflet inside.

I'm annoyed just thinking about it right now :joker:

Facts:

- Vaccines carry risks
- The effectiveness of vaccination is over-emphasised in terms of mortality reduction
- However, vaccine-preventable illnesses have a HIGHER RATE of risks of largely the same things as you'd get as a vaccine side-effect
- So vaccines ARE still a good idea if you understand anything about statistical risk. It's safer to have them than to not have them (by a long way)
- ...I'll still never advocate government-mandated medical procedures. Ever. Of any kind.
Can't disagree with any of this. Its utterly insane the way both sides go on in vax debates, its embarrassing sometimes. My kids are vaccinated, however, it was my choice to do so, just made the most sense. I did know there were (so small its almost negligible) risks but took the 'chance'.

I would not agree with vaccinations being forced on children tbh. Imagine you were made to do it and you were one of the unlucky few and the child had a bad reaction..just..doesn't seem right at all.

Not sure how I feel about banning unvaccinated kids from school either. What are the options? Given a child HAS to have an education legally? Would it be forcing parents to homeschool..something the huge majority of parents probably couldn't do anyway? IDK really..

[Toy Soldier]

Wouldn't this be done to protect children who are unable to be vaccinated, and as such, rely on herd immunisation to protect them?

Yes and also those who have had the MMR but have not developed immunity (which is also a larger proportion than is reported).

But that doesn't really matter because, like I said, I'm against removal of choice and bodily autonomy for any reason. We should encourage vaccination, emphatically, and always, the facts and figures back that up 100%. We should never be tempted to force it because it is a medical procedure, and sets a precedent for other government-mandated medical procedures. Given the state of the world / various governments right now, I have no idea why that prospect wouldn't horrify anyone.

[Vicky.]

Yes and also those who have had the MMR but have not developed immunity (which is also a larger proportion than is reported).

But that doesn't really matter because, like I said, I'm against removal of choice and bodily autonomy for any reason. We should encourage vaccination, emphatically, and always, the facts and figures back that up 100%. We should never be tempted to force it because it is a medical procedure, and sets a precedent for other government-mandated medical procedures. Given the state of the world / various governments right now, I have no idea why that prospect wouldn't horrify anyone.

Yes, was going to say this in my post but didn't know how to phrase it..very very slippery slope..

[arista]

I agree with Arista, and it's not often I get to say that.



Yes its about once a year.

[Toy Soldier]

Not sure how I feel about banning unvaccinated kids from school either. What are the options? Given a child HAS to have an education legally? Would it be forcing parents to homeschool..something the huge majority of parents probably couldn't do anyway? IDK really..

Well that's the point really, it's the disingenuous illusion of choice. "Oh of course you can still CHOOSE not to do it... your child will just have to be home-schooled and never attend public events". Which makes it not a choice, and tantamount to being mandatory, just with a caveat for people who are normally against such things to engage some cognitive dissonance and pretend that they're not going against their usual set of values... which a lot of people are willing to do, because certain institutions (mainly US big pharma that's spilled over into UK pop culture) have done a (very) good job of making people disproportionately terrified of communicable disease.

[bots]

it's a stupid law if it comes in. If any unvaccinated kid goes to school there is a danger they get a disease, but there is a danger they would get it anywhere. They don't put vaccinated kids at risk, so, i just don't see the logic behind it.

Also, the way to keep your kid out of school will be to not vaccinate them, which creates another issue. It's just not thought through

[Twosugars]

Yes and the balance of probabilities is clear that vaccination is the right choice. Choice being the operative word. Enforcing it is a very, very slippery slope.

Just like if you need an operation, getting it is the right choice. I'd be pretty ****ing worried if doctors could just knock you out and put you under the knife without consent. Like I said, no one is ever going to convince me that taking away the right to bodily autonomy is a good idea, for any reason.

The state dictate many things for the public good.
Would you say highway code should be a choice?
Attending diabetic appointments a choice?

[Toy Soldier]

The state dictate many things for the public good.
Would you say highway code should be a choice?
Attending diabetic appointments a choice?

Trying to compare a medical procedure to road safety is nonsense, and attending an appointment for diabetes is a choice.

[Toy Soldier]

Also, the way to keep your kid out of school will be to not vaccinate them, which creates another issue. It's just not thought through

It also furthers a sub-culture where the homeschooled children of parents who didn't vaccinate are even LESS likely to vaccinate their own children, which will only compound the problem in a few generations.

The efforts should be (and always should have been) in honest, open education around the subject and explaining the benefits of vaccination truthfully. Instead the focus is on vilification, scare stories (ur kids will def die!!) and threats (u can't send ur kids 2 school!!) which frankly is just never going to work.

[Vicky.]

Well that's the point really, it's the disingenuous illusion of choice. "Oh of course you can still CHOOSE not to do it... your child will just have to be home-schooled and never attend public events". Which makes it not a choice, and tantamount to being mandatory, just with a caveat for people who are normally against such things to engage some cognitive dissonance and pretend that they're not going against their usual set of values... which a lot of people are willing to do, because certain institutions (mainly US big pharma that's spilled over into UK pop culture) have done a (very) good job of making people disproportionately terrified of communicable disease.

Yeah this seems to be getting more and more common tbh, cognitive dissonance. Purposeful, in many cases I think.

Its not a choice at all if the option is they have to be homeschooled. As I said, so many parents simply could NOT homeschool. It is not as easy as many think it is. And thats before even getting into if the parent works and such..So thats obviously removing their choice entirely.

[Toy Soldier]

Really it's just all yet another great example of the extremism/tribalism we see absolutely everywhere these days.

The anti-vaxxer position is that the risk of vaccines is HUGE and thus, the risks associated with not vaccinating are worth taking.

The militant pro-vaxxer retort position is that the risks from vaccine preventable illness are HUGE or even semi-tongue-in-cheek(?) CERTAIN DEATH!!!... and that the risk with vaccination is ZERO.


ALL nonsense.

The truth is that the personal risk from the common illnesses we vaccinate against - even if you catch one - is very, very small. While the risk from vaccination exists but is statistically miniscule. Thus, vaccination is the rational, sensible choice.

I wish we'd spend more time explaining that, and less screeching about imagined threats and over the top fears.

[Denver]

Vaccination should be mandatory

[AnnieK]

I'm with TS on this....the thought that the government are dictating is a worry to me. My son is vaccinated, I wasn't until I was much older as my brother had convulsions after his immunisations and they refused to do me.

I know a lot.of people who opted for the private separate jabs but the thought didn't enter my head with my boy, I felt the benefits far out weighed the risks.

Education has to be the key with this and the anti vax rhetoric has to be shown for the rubbish it is

[Twosugars]

Trying to compare a medical procedure to road safety is nonsense, and attending an appointment for diabetes is a choice.

I think you're making it into a big big brother like scenario.

It is just vaccines :shrug:

Not buying this thin end of the wedge stuff

[Tom4784]

I hope it goes through, pro-disease people and their offspring should not be allowed around places in which their lack of immunity is a danger to others.

The whole movement is based on nothing but stupidity and narcissism.

[LaLaLand]

Good!

[Ramsay]

I hope it goes through, pro-disease people and their offspring should not be allowed around places in which their lack of immunity is a danger to others.

The whole movement is based on nothing but stupidity and narcissism.

:clap1:

[joeysteele]

If this is really a planned policy.

On balance I'd be against it.

I haven't any children so I'd bow more to the views of parents on this issue.
However education is vital and compulsory.
So in my view a child's education should be the dominating factor.

[Toy Soldier]

I think you're making it into a big big brother like scenario.

It is just vaccines :shrug:

Not buying this thin end of the wedge stuff

It's just vaccines today, and just the main ones today, until they start adding more vaccines that are mandatory, and then slide sideways into other medical procedures. This isn't tinfoil hat stuff; if we give governments the right to make medical decisions for us, they absolutely will grab it with both hands, and thinking that long term it'll remain "just vaccines" is, to be blunt, recklessly naive.

This is what I mean about cognitive dissonance - multiple people on this thread who I am 90+% sure would agree on principle if it was any other topic... ... ... ... "But vaccines eek!".

[Toy Soldier]

I hope it goes through, pro-disease people and their offspring should not be allowed around places in which their lack of immunity is a danger to others.

The whole movement is based on nothing but stupidity and narcissism.

Nonsense "Reddit-rhetoric" like this is only going to compound that subset of people's beliefs and make them close ranks and gain following, ultimately reducing overall vaccination rates. You don't convince people with threats and insults.

If your actual goal is increasing vaccination rates - and not just venting frustration - then you're being part of the problem, not the solution.

Accurate, honest, respectful education will increase vaccination rates. Force and mocking will not. People have been trying this "angry dad" / "shame the parents" routine with it for years if not decades. Rates are still falling. It doesn't work. Grow up.

[Ammi]

...it would be impossible to implement as a ban because it’s compulsory by law for a child to attend school...(..I would also doubt that teachers or unions would be on board with that at all..)...but I guess what it’s doing in screaming this ...is paving the way to scream...’we will fine...’...another day, another tax...etc..

[arista]

...it would be impossible to implement as a ban because it’s compulsory by law for a child to attend school...(..I would also doubt that teachers or unions would be on board with that at all..)...but I guess what it’s doing in screaming this ...is paving the way to scream...’we will fine...’...another day, another tax...etc..


Already a Nursery went on National TV
saying everyone has to prove their kid has been vaccinated

[Kizzy]

Mine were vaccinated however I've never understood why they lump them together, fighting off a virus is hard for a little body..but 3 together? :(

When mine were at school there were worries about MMR causing autism, that has been discredited however makes you wonder how or why it was linked initially :/

[The Slim Reaper]

Nonsense "Reddit-rhetoric" like this is only going to compound that subset of people's beliefs and make them close ranks and gain following, ultimately reducing overall vaccination rates. You don't convince people with threats and insults.

If your actual goal is increasing vaccination rates - and not just venting frustration - then you're being part of the problem, not the solution.

Accurate, honest, respectful education will increase vaccination rates. Force and mocking will not. People have been trying this "angry dad" / "shame the parents" routine with it for years if not decades. Rates are still falling. It doesn't work. Grow up.

I have sympathy with the body autonomy argument, but this point, whilst it makes sense to you or I, doesn't translate in the real world. We have an increasing number of people who trust their gut or a celebrity saying their child looked at a dr for 1 minute and now has autism.

I don't really look at it as either a threat or an insult, but merely a requirement to enter public education. We've seen diseases on the verge of being wiped off the planet, suddenly enjoying a resurgence because of parents that won't vaccinate.

It's also not a specific section of the population; we have religious parents refusing it for religious reasons, we have crystal waving hippie lefties that aren't vaccinating, and we have Jenny McCarthy believing parents. It's too widespread, and it unnecessarily endangers the lives of children that can't vaccinate.

[Toy Soldier]

I have sympathy with the body autonomy argument, but this point, whilst it makes sense to you or I, doesn't translate in the real world. We have an increasing number of people who trust their gut or a celebrity saying their child looked at a dr for 1 minute and now has autism.

I don't really look at it as either a threat or an insult, but merely a requirement to enter public education. We've seen diseases on the verge of being wiped off the planet, suddenly enjoying a resurgence because of parents that won't vaccinate.

It's also not a specific section of the population; we have religious parents refusing it for religious reasons, we have crystal waving hippie lefties that aren't vaccinating, and we have Jenny McCarthy believing parents. It's too widespread, and it unnecessarily endangers the lives of children that can't vaccinate.

Right but attempting to increase vaccination rates through shaming (calling people stupid / trying to tell them that their kids will die) or force (the threat of banning children from public spaces) simply won't work on any of those groups. It'll compound the problem by pushing those already inclined to retreat into sub-communities completely removed from the entire conversation and in 2 or 3 generations you'll have even lower vax rates. Honestly I understand the temptation to try to use force, I just know it won't work, and while you can ban unvaccinated kids from schools, you can't ban them from parks, or soft play areas, or any other public space, so it doesn't really matter.

[Toy Soldier]

There's a YouTube video around somewhere of 3 anti-vaxxers talking to three experts... two of the experts go down the usual internet-age hysteria route, screeching at them like they're feeding their kids plague rats for dinner. The conversation goes absolutely nowhere.

ONE doctor conceeds that vaccines carry small risks, as any medical procedure does, and takes the time to explain the statistics and that the possible vaccine side effects are largely identical to the possible complications of the illnesses - and much rarer - and they actually engage in conversation with him.

It's EXTREMELY illustrative of the situation in my opinion. I haven't been able to find the damn thing though.

[Toy Soldier]

If anyone's interested, here's a very simple pro-vax argument that relies on the real figures and not the lies.

The main fear that anti-vax people have, is brain injury caused by encephalitis. Encephalitis IS a possible vaccine side effect, at a rate of roughly 1 in 130000.

Encephalitis is also a possible side effect of measles, at a rate of around 1 in 600.

In other words, a child is 200x more likely to get "the scariest side effect" from measles than they are from the MMR.

People don't bother to explain that though, they're happier just saying "reeeeeee if your child gets measles their head will fall off, so you must hate them and be pro-death, get out of our schools reee"

[The Slim Reaper]

Right but attempting to increase vaccination rates through shaming (calling people stupid / trying to tell them that their kids will die) or force (the threat of banning children from public spaces) simply won't work on any of those groups. It'll compound the problem by pushing those already inclined to retreat into sub-communities completely removed from the entire conversation and in 2 or 3 generations you'll have even lower vax rates. Honestly I understand the temptation to try to use force, I just know it won't work, and while you can ban unvaccinated kids from schools, you can't ban them from parks, or soft play areas, or any other public space, so it doesn't really matter.

I'm not calling anyone stupid or threatening them, I just advocate having vaccination as an entry requirement if you want your child to attend school. We can't eradicate all risk from every life and never will, but I disagree with because we can't ban them from everywhere then it's pointless trying to protect them when we can.

Anti-vax movements are increasing in popularity already, and the problem with conspiracy theorists, is evidence and facts are used to prove to them that it's just more of a conspiracy, rather than an attempt to help them help their children.

Maybe requiring those children to be vaccinated will help them see in a generation or two, that actually they're not giving our children autism afterall, whereas allowing this issue to go on unaddressed is currently having the opposite effect.

[Toy Soldier]

I'm not calling anyone stupid or threatening them, I just advocate having vaccination as an entry requirement if you want your child to attend school.

I know you haven't, I was mainly referring to comments like this

pro-disease people and their offspring should not be allowed around places in which their lack of immunity is a danger to others.

The whole movement is based on nothing but stupidity and narcissism.

With super-edgy reddit buzz terms like "pro-disease" (often "pro-death") that are sadly not uncommon in this "debate", and entirely unhelpful if not counterproductive.

We can't eradicate all risk from every life and never will, but I disagree with because we can't ban them from everywhere then it's pointless trying to protect them when we can.

Anti-vax movements are increasing in popularity already, and the problem with conspiracy theorists, is evidence and facts are used to prove to them that it's just more of a conspiracy, rather than an attempt to help them help their children.

Maybe requiring those children to be vaccinated will help them see in a generation or two, that actually they're not giving our children autism afterall, whereas allowing this issue to go on unaddressed is currently having the opposite effect.

The problem with not using the facts though is that THAT feeds the idea that it's all conspiracy. Encephalitis occurs as a vaccine side effect. Brain injury occurs in many (not most, but many) cases of encaphalitis. Permanent brain injury *can and does happen as a result of vaccination* and that can be confirmed with very little searching. So if you have a tonne of people shouting that something doesn't happen, when it is a medical fact that it DOES happen, the argument breaks down completely.

For it to be a valid debate and get anywhere the starting point has to be getting those who know that there are risks, to understand that not vaccinating carries far higher risks.

I just can't comprehend why anyone thinks this is going to be addressed with lies and force, or why anyone would want it to be, given the potential for precedent.

[The Slim Reaper]

I know you haven't, I was mainly referring to comments like this



With super-edgy reddit buzz terms like "pro-disease" (often "pro-death") that are sadly not uncommon in this "debate", and entirely unhelpful if not counterproductive.



The problem with not using the facts though is that THAT feeds the idea that it's all conspiracy. Encephalitis occurs as a vaccine side effect. Brain injury occurs in many (not most, but many) cases of encaphalitis. Permanent brain injury *can and does happen as a result of vaccination* and that can be confirmed with very little searching. So if you have a tonne of people shouting that something doesn't happen, when it is a medical fact that it DOES happen, the argument breaks down completely.

For it to be a valid debate and get anywhere the starting point has to be getting those who know that there are risks, to understand that not vaccinating carries far higher risks.

I just can't comprehend why anyone thinks this is going to be addressed with lies and force, or why anyone would want it to be, given the potential for precedent.

That encephalitis point is a really good point that I was unaware of, but is that the main driver of the anti-vax movement (genuine question, as I don't know)? Because the main stuff I've heard about are the actual conspiracy theories. Maybe that's a case of the craziest voices making the most noise?

Is there real world data out there for those that don't want to vaccinate their children for genuine medical reasons vs those that believe the gubmint just want to inject satan's urine into your arm, then that would probably help us identify the most successful approach.

There are probably a lot of people that float across the middle of those 2 positions, that have heard bad things about it, but don't really bother with the details, so I think the regulatory vaccinations in conjunction with education as opposed to either or, would probably be the most effective strategy.

[Twosugars]

It's just vaccines today, and just the main ones today, until they start adding more vaccines that are mandatory, and then slide sideways into other medical procedures. This isn't tinfoil hat stuff; if we give governments the right to make medical decisions for us, they absolutely will grab it with both hands, and thinking that long term it'll remain "just vaccines" is, to be blunt, recklessly naive.

This is what I mean about cognitive dissonance - multiple people on this thread who I am 90+% sure would agree on principle if it was any other topic... ... ... ... "But vaccines eek!".

I do sympathise with your argument TS.
But we've given up our privacy to CCTV. Vaccines is another example where personally I'd expect that common good should trump individual freedom. Sorry, it is my gut reaction even though I understand your concerns

[Tom4784]

Nonsense "Reddit-rhetoric" like this is only going to compound that subset of people's beliefs and make them close ranks and gain following, ultimately reducing overall vaccination rates. You don't convince people with threats and insults.

If your actual goal is increasing vaccination rates - and not just venting frustration - then you're being part of the problem, not the solution.

Accurate, honest, respectful education will increase vaccination rates. Force and mocking will not. People have been trying this "angry dad" / "shame the parents" routine with it for years if not decades. Rates are still falling. It doesn't work. Grow up.

More fool you for trying to reason with stupidity, anti-vaxxers are narcissists that think they can overpower science with essential oils and healing crystals. They do not listen to reason or common sense because they possess neither and their actions are bringing back diseases and illnesses we had all but gotten rid of. Talking to them is like trying to convince a gun nut to see the issue with AR-15s being sold in US supermarkets, they will never listen and I won't waste my time on morons telling them any different. Their actions endanger vulnerable people and all you are doing is empowering them by offering their insane viewpoints an out.

Do not patronise me and tell me to grow up when you're going to be pulling splinters out of your arse for sitting on the fence for a pretty black or white issue. Science vs Stupidity, that is what this boils down to and your tin foil what ifs do nothing but create more reasons for those idiots to stick their heads in the sand.

[Jessica.]

More fool you for trying to reason with stupidity, anti-vaxxers are narcissists that think they can overpower science with essential oils and healing crystals. They do not listen to reason or common sense because they possess neither and their actions are bringing back diseases and illnesses we had all but gotten rid of. Talking to them is like trying to convince a gun nut to see the issue with AR-15s being sold in US supermarkets, they will never listen and I won't waste my time on morons telling them any different. Their actions endanger vulnerable people and all you are doing is empowering them by offering their insane viewpoints an out.

Do not patronise me and tell me to grow up when you're going to be pulling splinters out of your arse for sitting on the fence for a pretty black or white issue. Science vs Stupidity, that is what this boils down to and your tin foil what ifs do nothing but create more reasons for those idiots to stick their heads in the sand.

:clap1: I completely agree, anti-vaccers thing they know more than people who are constantly saving lives. Vaccination should not be a choice, it should be mandatory.

[Toy Soldier]

More fool you for trying to reason with stupidity, anti-vaxxers are narcissists that think they can overpower science with essential oils and healing crystals. They do not listen to reason or common sense because they possess neither and their actions are bringing back diseases and illnesses we had all but gotten rid of. Talking to them is like trying to convince a gun nut to see the issue with AR-15s being sold in US supermarkets, they will never listen and I won't waste my time on morons telling them any different. Their actions endanger vulnerable people and all you are doing is empowering them by offering their insane viewpoints an out.

Do not patronise me and tell me to grow up when you're going to be pulling splinters out of your arse for sitting on the fence for a pretty black or white issue. Science vs Stupidity, that is what this boils down to and your tin foil what ifs do nothing but create more reasons for those idiots to stick their heads in the sand.

It's not a black and white issue when what you're touting as "white" is the frankly utterly insane notion of allowing government-enforced medical procedures. I can only imagine the backflips you must be doing in your mind to advocate for this, based on being frustrated by anti-vaxxers. "Some people make dumb decisions so ... time to cancel the right to bodily autonomy I guess!"

You're also drawing completely false comparisons with things like gun laws. The idea that you can convince anti-vaxxers to vaccinate by screeching at them that being anti-vax is being "pro death" is more akin to the idea that you could convince someone to give up their handgun by repeatedly bellowing that it's secretly a nuclear bomb.

Debate using the facts or don't debate at all. Don't insist on your right to abandon them to boring internet-parrot-rhetoric because it's an issue that you find frustrating.

[Vicky.]

If anyone's interested, here's a very simple pro-vax argument that relies on the real figures and not the lies.

The main fear that anti-vax people have, is brain injury caused by encephalitis. Encephalitis IS a possible vaccine side effect, at a rate of roughly 1 in 130000.

Encephalitis is also a possible side effect of measles, at a rate of around 1 in 600.

In other words, a child is 200x more likely to get "the scariest side effect" from measles than they are from the MMR.

People don't bother to explain that though, they're happier just saying "reeeeeee if your child gets measles their head will fall off, so you must hate them and be pro-death, get out of our schools reee"

:clap2::clap2::clap2:

Nothing to add really. But its very rare for me to agree with you much..but on this every word you have typed..I agree with.

[Tom4784]

It's not a black and white issue when what you're touting as "white" is the frankly utterly insane notion of allowing government-enforced medical procedures. I can only imagine the backflips you must be doing in your mind to advocate for this, based on being frustrated by anti-vaxxers. "Some people make dumb decisions so ... time to cancel the right to bodily autonomy I guess!"

You're also drawing completely false comparisons with things like gun laws. The idea that you can convince anti-vaxxers to vaccinate by screeching at them that being anti-vax is being "pro death" is more akin to the idea that you could convince someone to give up their handgun by repeatedly bellowing that it's secretly a nuclear bomb.

Debate using the facts or don't debate at all. Don't insist on your right to abandon them to boring internet-parrot-rhetoric because it's an issue that you find frustrating.

Be less of a hypocrite, TS. You've been preaching about how we need to handle anti-vaxxers with kid gloves and be respectful to them but you've been screeching at me telling me to grow up because my views upset you. Come speak to me when you've sorted out your hypocrisy because you can't be all 'we need to reason and treat anti-vaxxers with kindness!' in one breath and then be patronising as **** to someone you disagree with. That **** won't fly with me and that hypocrisy will completely upend everything you're saying here.

[Vicky.]

The main fear I hear from parents (mind, sample size is very small..) is the link with vaccination and autism. And no amount of showing them that Wakefield was an a fraud will get them to see reason.

Did he go to prison? He ****ing should have as he is responsible for a LOT of this.

[Tom4784]

The main fear I hear from parents (mind, sample size is very small..) is the link with vaccination and autism. And no amount of showing them that Wakefield was an a fraud will get them to see reason.

Did he go to prison? He ****ing should have as he is responsible for a LOT of this.

To me, the anti-vaxx movement is just another example of how humanity is becoming wilfully dumb to facts. We live in an age where people will believe fairy tales they want to believe are true over science, where people think facts can be overcome with belief and I hate it. I hate how we're sliding back through wilful ignorance.

I will never tolerate an anti-vaxx viewpoint or anything that even slightly validates it because the only way this world will continue spinning is if people drop the fantasy worlds they live in and rejoin reality. The anti-vaxx movement is a testament to stupidity and an insult to all the sacrifices and efforts of people that all but eradicated these illnesses that are coming back.

[Toy Soldier]

Be less of a hypocrite, TS. You've been preaching about how we need to handle anti-vaxxers with kid gloves and be respectful to them but you've been screeching at me telling me to grow up because my views upset you. Come speak to me when you've sorted out your hypocrisy because you can't be all 'we need to reason and treat anti-vaxxers with kindness!' in one breath and then be patronising as **** to someone you disagree with. That **** won't fly with me and that hypocrisy will completely upend everything you're saying here.

I'm talking about the best way to handle them in order to convince them to vaccinate and address a large issue, I'm not saying treat them with kid gloves out of concern for their feelings :think:. Honestly when it comes right down to it I don't care all THAT much about how you speak to them, so long as no one starts sticking needles in anyone with dubious levels of consent. (Remember: consent under duress is NOT consent.)


All of this aside... I've not even started on one of my main gripes with "vax-hyperbole" rhetoric. The constantly touted (and completely incorrect) assertion that infant and child mortality rates have dramatically dropped over the last century thanks to vaccination.

This is false. Vaccination has improved rates slightly, but it is MINISCULE in comparison to the ACTUAL reason for the vast reduction in infant mortality. Which is undeniably, 100%, the discovery of penicillin and further development of anti-biotics.

Why is this important? Because anti-biotics are at risk. Ironically, they're MOST at risk from exactly the same people who are furious at other parents for not vaccinating; the parents who rush their kids for AB's at the slightest cough. And the doctors who over-prescribe them. The effects of AB resistance have the potential to be utterly catastrophic, orders of magnitude above what would happen if EVERYONE stopped vaccinating tomorrow.

But how do you even begin to convince the public of the FACT that anti-biotics are the real reason - almost entirely - for reduced child death, and that we must preserve working anti-biotics and reduce AB resistance progression at all costs - when there's a horde of other people insisting that reduced child mortality is all thanks to vaccination? It's very difficult. Very, very difficult. The idea that vaccines have "saved the children" is firmly rooted in the public mindset.

[Toy Soldier]

The main fear I hear from parents (mind, sample size is very small..) is the link with vaccination and autism. And no amount of showing them that Wakefield was an a fraud will get them to see reason.

Did he go to prison? He ****ing should have as he is responsible for a LOT of this.

The problem is that vaccine-related encephalitis can cause permanent brain injury that can manifest as learning disability, and that often gets "lumped in" with autism (even though it is NOT autism). So people see "evidence" of "something that looks a bit like autism" resulting from vaccine injury and assume that Wakefield must have been right all along.

Of course, we're supposed to lie and pretend that LD can't be a result of vaccination because that's how we'll convince people to vaccinate, and telling the truth "just gives anti-vaxxers ammo". Apparently.

[Tom4784]

I'm talking about the best way to handle them in order to convince them to vaccinate and address a large issue, I'm not saying treat them with kid gloves out of concern for their feelings :think:. Honestly when it comes right down to it I don't care all THAT much about how you speak to them, so long as no one starts sticking needles in anyone with dubious levels of consent. (Remember: consent under duress is NOT consent.)


All of this aside... I've not even started on one of my main gripes with "vax-hyperbole" rhetoric. The constantly touted (and completely incorrect) assertion that infant and child mortality rates have dramatically dropped over the last century thanks to vaccination.

This is false. Vaccination has improved rates slightly, but it is MINISCULE in comparison to the ACTUAL reason for the vast reduction in infant mortality. Which is undeniably, 100%, the discovery of penicillin and further development of anti-biotics.

Why is this important? Because anti-biotics are at risk. Ironically, they're MOST at risk from exactly the same people who are furious at other parents for not vaccinating; the parents who rush their kids for AB's at the slightest cough. And the doctors who over-prescribe them. The effects of AB resistance have the potential to be utterly catastrophic, orders of magnitude above what would happen if EVERYONE stopped vaccinating tomorrow.

But how do you even begin to convince the public of the FACT that anti-biotics are the real reason - almost entirely - for reduced child death, and that we must preserve working anti-biotics and reduce AB resistance progression at all costs - when there's a horde of other people insisting that reduced child mortality is all thanks to vaccination? It's very difficult. Very, very difficult. The idea that vaccines have "saved the children" is firmly rooted in the public mindset.

More attempts at validating the anti-vaxx movement while not dealing with the utter hypocrisy how you approach the different sides. You're just being the Abby Huntsman of anti-vaxx.

At the end of the day we are seeing a rise of infection rates of illnesses that were almost non-existent before, that's purely because of the anti-vaxx movement and their stupidity is putting people who genuinely have valid reasons to not be vaccinated at risk. You can jump through as many hoops as you like but thousands of kids get immunised every day without incident and everything that anti-vaxxers preach is basically bull**** regurgitated from a conman doctor that was struck off the register.

Even if this bill goes through, it's not gonna force parents to immunise their children, it just means that if their insane beliefs are more important to them then the well being of their child, they'll have to homeschool them instead.

[Vicky.]

To me, the anti-vaxx movement is just another example of how humanity is becoming wilfully dumb to facts. We live in an age where people will believe fairy tales they want to believe are true over science, where people think facts can be overcome with belief and I hate it. I hate how we're sliding back through wilful ignorance.

I will never tolerate an anti-vaxx viewpoint or anything that even slightly validates it because the only way this world will continue spinning is if people drop the fantasy worlds they live in and rejoin reality. The anti-vaxx movement is a testament to stupidity and an insult to all the sacrifices and efforts of people that all but eradicated these illnesses that are coming back.

Yeah agree with all this too tbh,

I don't quite understand why some are willing to overlook everything else, and cling on to one study by Wakefield..

[Toy Soldier]

More attempts at validating the anti-vaxx movement while not dealing with the utter hypocrisy how you approach the different sides. You're just being the Abby Huntsman of anti-vaxx.

If pretending that I'm an anti-vax shill helps you to get your head around advocating distasteful levels of government authoritarianism, then by all means continue. I'm not and have presented numerous rguments for vaccination throughout this thread. Just... you know... real ones, instead of imaginary ones.

At the end of the day we are seeing a rise of infection rates of illnesses that were almost non-existent before, that's purely because of the anti-vaxx movement and their stupidity is putting people who genuinely have valid reasons to not be vaccinated at risk. You can jump through as many hoops as you like but thousands of kids get immunised every day without incident and everything that anti-vaxxers preach is basically bull**** regurgitated from a conman doctor that was struck off the register.

I don't disagree with any of that (unless you're trying to claim that vaccine injury rate is zero?), it's just not enough to convince me that the best way to address it is through lies and misquoted statistics, or that it justifies the tacit removal of bodily autonomy by government. Never, ever will.


Even if this bill goes through, it's not gonna force parents to immunise their children, it just means that if their insane beliefs are more important to them then the well being of their child, they'll have to homeschool them instead.

Consent under duress is not consent. This is a concept that already applies to medical procedure consent. This stuff is far more vital to a well-functioning world than vaccination rates. Maybe you don't agree, and that's fine too.

[Ramsay]

Yeah agree with all this too tbh,

I don't quite understand why some are willing to overlook everything else, and cling on to one study by Wakefield..

Dunning Kruger Effect. Usually parents that never did well academically who now want to appear smarter than they are.

[arista]

From The Conservative Conference in Manchester
The Health Secretary has said he consulting
with the NHS Specialists on how to do a ban...........................

[arista]

https://storify.com/services/proxy/2/V0_wDlnkBjJ-m6IdXb7HNA/https/media.fyre.co/uL34wzSf6oJXQu9nRvQO_i%20monday.JPG

[Ammi]

...the compulsory vaccinations for school children is something being considered, something that’s being discussed as a possible proposal...but it very much has complications also..if and when it’s ever ‘confirmed’...which is what the thread title suggests, that the Health Secretary has confirmed the ban...?...very lazy posting, sir...

[arista]

...the compulsory vaccinations for school children is something being considered, something that’s being discussed as a possible proposal...but it very much has complications also..if and when it’s ever ‘confirmed’...which is what the thread title suggests, that the Health Secretary has confirmed the ban...?...very lazy posting, sir...


Corrected
Confirms - removed.

Until it is.

[arista]

LBC Live
With James
has Banned any non- vaccinated kid Parent
from Phoning his Live debate on it.
30mins left /

Good On Him.

Ammi it may be hard to enforce
but its now got the whole nation Backing this Ban.

[arista]

One Caller on LBC
who has Leukemia and if he gets near one of these kids
Unvaccinated, it will Kill him.

[Niamh.]

I'm a bit torn on this one, I'm very pro vax generally and I do think it's irresponsible not to vaccinate your child but If you make it compulsory, where does it stop? My kids have had all their normal vaccinations but a few years back they were offered a vaccine in school for either Swine flu or Ebola (I think it was Swine flu) which i refused after getting some advise from a friend of my mothers who's a Doctor (he said he wouldn't be giving it to his kids, not enough testing etc, too rushed out) but then again all the normal one measles/mumps/rubella etc have been extensively tested and proven to be successful and people are just filling themselves up with social media "facts" and anecdotal issues with the vaccines so I don't know where to stand with it tbh. Someone mentioned bodily autonomy back along (maybe TS?) but the child has no bodily autonomy either way here, it's either their parents deciding what's best for them or the state, it seems like the parents deciding against is putting that child at a greater risk

[AnnieK]

Having thought about it, I can almost get on board with it being compulsory but what worries me is its the kids who will suffer when their parents have made the choice. There will always need to be parental consent to actually get the vax and so little Billy who wants to go to school with his mates and learn will not be allowed to do so because his parent's haven't given consent.

[arista]

Having thought about it, I can almost get on board with it being compulsory but what worries me is its the kids who will suffer when their parents have made the choice. There will always need to be parental consent to actually get the vax and so little Billy who wants to go to school with his mates and learn will not be allowed to do so because his parent's haven't given consent.


Yes I am Glad LBC
spent a hour on this.
And Great James, Presenter
banned the Cocky Parent
who has not vaccinated his kid.

[joeysteele]

From The Conservative Conference in Manchester
The Health Secretary has said he consulting
with the NHS Specialists on how to do a ban...........................

I think a ban on a child going to school is wrong myself.

However I still would bow to the views of Parents.
Reading the posts here are really interesting.

Plus, I commend Matt Hancock for seeming to do a proper consultation process.
It will be interesting too, to hear his conclusions.

[Vicky.]

I think a ban on a child going to school is wrong myself.


I don't really understand how its legal. Given its a legal requirement for children to have an education..

[Marsh.]

The crocodile's dilemma.

[joeysteele]

I don't really understand how its legal. Given its a legal requirement for children to have an education..

Vicky, in the post brexit world I'm not sure what's going to be legal anymore.

However, I haven't children so I think Parents are the key on all child matters.
I agree if a child has to educated then I don't see a present legal way round this myself.

I mean also, how many children are likely not vaccinated anyway?

[Vicky.]

I mean also, how many children are likely not vaccinated anyway?

I would think the vast majority of kids are vaccinated.

I think theres a significant minority that aren't though, and given online presence is growing, and with it the group of people who seem to get their news from social media and the likes (part of the reason for the brexit vote I think, given you mentioned it :p ) the amount of people who chose not to vaccinate based on internet scare stories will be growing too.

I think most parents will fall inbetween the 'you are literally killing thousands of people by not vaccinating!!!!!1' and 'vaccinating my child will cause instant death, I read it on facebook so its gospel' types. And luckily, I reckon the middle ground group will mainly all go for vaccinating based on rational risk analysis..but it is quite worrying that the social media news group is growing.

Probably makes me fall a litte closer to 'omg, murderer' type group for even talking about other parents in this..dismissive way. It doesn't really help and will never convince others to go for vaccination if they do believe all the scare stories. Mind, I honestly don't think that any rational speech would affect them or make them stop catastrophizing to be quite honest.

I don't know what the answer is really. But...this does not do it for me, for the main reason of..you cannot say education is a legal requirement, but then ban groups of children from recieving an education. Or shouldn't..IMO. But I can see where its coming from..at the same time. Odd topic for me, one of those where I half have splinters in my arse from the fencesitting! :laugh:

[joeysteele]

I would think the vast majority of kids are vaccinated.

I think theres a significant minority that aren't though, and given online presence is growing, and with it the group of people who seem to get their news from social media and the likes (part of the reason for the brexit vote I think, given you mentioned it :p ) the amount of people who chose not to vaccinate based on internet scare stories will be growing too.

I think most parents will fall inbetween the 'you are literally killing thousands of people by not vaccinating!!!!!1' and 'vaccinating my child will cause instant death, I read it on facebook so its gospel' types. And luckily, I reckon the middle ground group will mainly all go for vaccinating based on rational risk analysis..but it is quite worrying that the social media news group is growing.

Probably makes me fall a litte closer to 'omg, murderer' type group for even talking about other parents in this..dismissive way. It doesn't really help and will never convince others to go for vaccination if they do believe all the scare stories. Mind, I honestly don't think that any rational speech would affect them or make them stop catastrophizing to be quite honest.

I don't know what the answer is really. But...this does not do it for me, for the main reason of..you cannot say education is a legal requirement, but then ban groups of children from recieving an education. Or shouldn't..IMO. But I can see where its coming from..at the same time. Odd topic for me, one of those where I half have splinters in my arse from the fencesitting! :laugh:

Nothing wrong in being cautious Vicky.

Thank you for all that insight to your thinking.
As a Parent you will know what you want and is best for you.

Thanks again.

[Twosugars]

In this day and age experts and science are unpopular.

Second middle ages coming?

[Ammi]

...a spokesperson from the Conservative party ... “We’re not at the stage of refusing admission. Our priority is on increasing vaccination numbers, and I’ve set out some of the things that we’re doing.”

...I still can’t see how the ban could be implemented when it’s a legal requirement for a child to attend school...it’s also been this government’s aim to ensure all state schools become academies, which many are now...so what state schools will there be anyway, to look at non-vaccination bans...it just all feels like a distraction to me...’oh, look at the anti-vaxxers..!!!...let’s talk about that...’...a little focus away from our lack of dedication to the NHS ...maybe ban the anti-NHS people from parliament, would be more the thing...

[arista]

"I still can’t see how the ban could be implemented when it’s a legal requirement for a child to attend school."

Except a Child that has Not been Vaccinated.


They will change it

[Toy Soldier]

"I still can’t see how the ban could be implemented when it’s a legal requirement for a child to attend school."

Except a Child that has Not been Vaccinated.


They will change it

That's a potential health AND education minefield though because - as I think someone said earlier in the thread - if a parent doesn't want to bother with their child's education, simply refusing to vaccinate will mean they have an "attendance loophole". So you have the kids falling through the cracks in terms of vaccination AND education.

My view on this (I'm sure you'll all be surprised to hear) remains unchanged; consent under duress is not consent, and government being handed the power to make health interventions mandatory is just another step towards a really chilling political future.

I sincerely HOPE that when Hancock starts asking medical experts about "how this would be implemented", a decent number of the doctors do talk to him about informed consent and just how ****ing important it is. This debate (not just here, everywhere) has demonstrated to me that Joe Public really has no idea how important it is, but I hold out a slight (probably naive) hope that doctors do know.

[Cherie]

I worked in a school for special needs for 8 years, we were routinely offered the flu jab each year, I always declined but some co-workers were worried they would be penalised if they declined and then got sick, obviously this wouldn't have been an issue but they felt obliged to take it, some people reacted badly to it, I can only imagine the worry if you were a parent and your first child had an allergic reaction to the jabs given and you were the forced to vaccinate subsequent children. It should be parental choice, most parents look at the pros and cons and take it up because no one wants to see their children get illnesses needlessly, I think the uptake in the UK is 90 per cent, down from 91, obviously if it continues to fall then I think an advertising campaign in the first instance might do the trick, banning kids from school etc is like taking a sledgehammer to crack a nut

[Ammi]

...interesting that there are already vaccination shortages../...indefinite delays to some scheduled vaccinations...so this is something that this government is prioritising...?....while giving no thought/..application to the availability... crazzzy people...