View Full Version : Thoughts on diplomatic immunity..?...
...really with regards to this and whether a waiver should be applied or the immunity upheld..?...
Police chiefs have written to the US embassy in London to demand immunity is waived for an American diplomat’s wife who is a suspect in relation to a fatal road crash.
Nick Adderley, chief constable for Northamptonshire Police, said US authorities had been appealed to in “the strongest terms” to apply a waiver and “allow the justice process to take place” in relation to the woman, who has been named in media reports as 42-year-old Anne Sacoolas.
Northamptonshire Police are leading investigations into a collision that killed 19-year-old Harry Dunn, of Charlton, Banbury, on August 27.
Police said the teenager died after his motorbike collided with a car close to RAF Croughton in Northamptonshire, a military base used by the US Air Force.
Police have said the woman allegedly involved in the accident had left the UK, despite telling officers she did not plan to do so.
The US embassy confirmed the incident had involved a vehicle driven by the spouse of a US diplomat assigned to UK who had departed the country, adding that diplomatic immunity was “rarely waived”.
Responding to a question on Twitter, Mr Adderley confirmed that he and Stephen Mold, Police Fire and Crime Commissioner for Northamptonshire, had contacted the embassy for immunity to be waived.
Referring to the diplomat’s wife, Mr Adderley told the BBC: “During the initial investigation we were given some assurances by the American authorities that she would co-operate fully with the police and… that she would not be leaving the community, and would not be leaving the country, and then the next minute we found out that, actually, she and her family had left.
“So, it was really disappointing.
“Which prompted the letter from me to say we want to see justice done, and the family have a right to see justice done.”
Speaking to Sky News, Harry’s mother Charlotte Charles the family was not coping with their loss.
She said: “We’re literally just getting through hour to hour every day, going with the flow of what we need to do.
“Harry was always one that fought for what he thought was right. We’re honouring him by doing this.
“It’s not much to ask – she’s left a family in complete ruin. We’re broken inside and out – many of us, not just direct parents, but the siblings, the grandparents, aunties, uncles, nieces – we’re all broken.
“We’re just utterly shocked and appalled that somebody has been allowed to get on a plane and go home and avoid our justice system.”
Asked if she had a message for Mrs Sacoolas, Ms Charles said: “Just come home. Come back to us. Come back to the UK.
“We’re not a horrible family. We’re a usual UK family that just need to put a face to what we have now as a name.
“Talk to her, find out how she’s feeling. She’s got to be suffering as well – she’s a mum.
“Without knowing who this person is properly, we can’t begin to try and start our grieving process.”
Speaking of the lengths the family would go to have closure from the incident, Ms Charles said: “If we have to we will go to Washington. We don’t want it to have to come to that, we don’t see why it should have to come to that… we just want to sit and talk with her.
“We just don’t understand how you can just get on a plane and leave behind the devastation she has without even speaking to us or facing us, or an apology of any kind.”
https://uk.news.yahoo.com/police-chiefs-urge-us-embassy-053726782.html
Niamh.
07-10-2019, 10:01 AM
I think it would be really bad if the US didn't send her back. Horrible thing to do
we are really talking diplomatic immunity, and i think it is very important to ensure the safety of those representing their government overseas that it is maintained no matter the circumstances
The onus in this case should be on America to take appropriate measures to make sure people are responsible for their actions when representing their country, and punish them for breaking that code of conduct as appropriate
arista
07-10-2019, 10:10 AM
Yes that lady told the Police she was staying in the UK
then went to America.
Cherie
07-10-2019, 10:15 AM
I listened to the boys poor mother yesterday, she needs to be sent back asap, she is obviously guilty of his manslaughter given she took off, this family need justice
Not sure if anyone is watching A confession, but what Becky's family went through to get justice and how the policeman involved was treated makes your blood run cold
Niamh.
07-10-2019, 10:17 AM
I listened to the boys poor mother yesterday, she needs to be sent back asap, she is obviously guilty of his manslaughter given she took off, this family need justice
Not sure if anyone is watching A confession, but what Becky's family went through to get justice and how the policeman involved was treated makes your blood run cold
What's that about?
we are really talking diplomatic immunity, and i think it is very important to ensure the safety of those representing their government overseas that it is maintained no matter the circumstances
The onus in this case should be on America to take appropriate measures to make sure people are responsible for their actions when representing their country, and punish them for breaking that code of conduct as appropriate
...ughhhh, the descriptor just escaped me, I’ll change the title ...thank you for your wisdom, which I quite frequently have immunity from, I think...
Cherie
07-10-2019, 10:25 AM
What's that about?
Its based on a true story of an abduction and murder of Sian O Callagahan by a taxi driver when she was going home from a girls night out, when he is arrested he offers up that he has another victim and but the police officer didn't rearrest him or read him his rights as they were out of the station and he was taking them to where Sians body was, long story short because he wasn't read his rights and he pleaded guilty to Sians murder, he wasn't convicted for Beckys murder, and the policeman was charged with serious misconduct and was demoted, last part tonight, Morgan Freeman and Imelda Staunton are in it
Niamh.
07-10-2019, 10:29 AM
Its based on a true story of an abduction and murder of Sian O Callagahan by a taxi driver when she was going home from a girls night out, when he is arrested he offers up that he has another victim and but the police officer didn't rearrest him or read him his rights as they were out of the station and he was taking them to where Sians body was, long story short because he wasn't read his rights and he pleaded guilty to Sians murder, he wasn't convicted for Beckys murder, and the policeman was charged with serious misconduct and was demoted, last part tonight, Morgan Freeman and Imelda Staunton are in it
Ohh that sounds familiar, was there another show about that a couple of years back?
Even if the lady had wanted to stay and help the police, there would have been lawyers involved that would put her straight on the next plane home
Even if the lady had wanted to stay and help the police, there would have been lawyers involved that would put her straight on the next plane home
...yeah I totally get that also and it has made me think whether diplomatic immunity should be something that’s ever applied at all for this type of thing...she should face the law, not the media and the public...
...yeah I totally get that also and it has made me think whether diplomatic immunity should be something that’s ever applied at all for this type of thing...she should face the law, not the media and the public...
the problem is that unless the people get total, unquestionable immunity they are then vulnerable to kidnap, false charges, imprisonment .... thats why it is total immunity. We have the right to expel diplomats as we see fit, but that is the extent of our jurisdiction
the problem is that unless the people get total, unquestionable immunity they are then vulnerable to kidnap, false charges, imprisonment .... thats why it is total immunity. We have the right to expel diplomats as we see fit, but that is the extent of our jurisdiction
...but a country should have the same right to recall diplomats or their families when a serious crime is known to be have been committed...
Cherie
07-10-2019, 10:53 AM
Ohh that sounds familiar, was there another show about that a couple of years back?
Not about this particular case, but the case is not that old I think it happened around 2011
Niamh.
07-10-2019, 10:57 AM
Not about this particular case, but the case is not that old I think it happened around 2011
hhhmm what's the one I'm thinking of then, the detective broke some sort of protocol and allowed the suspect to bring him to a site where he said the body was dumped or something? I could swear it was a taxi driver and young woman aswell
Cherie
07-10-2019, 10:59 AM
hhhmm what's the one I'm thinking of then, the detective broke some sort of protocol and allowed the suspect to bring him to a site where he said the body was dumped or something? I could swear it was a taxi driver and young woman aswell
oh yeah probably the same case, but I don't think its been dramatized before
Kizzy
07-10-2019, 11:00 AM
we are really talking diplomatic immunity, and i think it is very important to ensure the safety of those representing their government overseas that it is maintained no matter the circumstances
The onus in this case should be on America to take appropriate measures to make sure people are responsible for their actions when representing their country, and punish them for breaking that code of conduct as appropriate
That's why the thread is titled ,thoughts on diplomatic immunity', it wasn't the representative it was his wife, why would she be afforded the same protections?
...but a country should have the same right to recall diplomats or their families when a serious crime is known to be have been committed...
They could only do that by extraditing her if America waived her diplomatic immunity and it's extremely unlikely that America would do that as none of their diplomats would ever feel safe again, and would leave
Kizzy
07-10-2019, 11:07 AM
Was discussing this yesterday, how and why are diplomats above the law? Not just them their family too, you wouldn't expect a representative of a country to reside in another country and not have to abide by their laws...surely?
Even if they abide by yhe laws of their own country that was a crime, I didn't think anyone was above the law.
Kizzy
07-10-2019, 11:13 AM
They could only do that by extraditing her if America waived her diplomatic immunity and it's extremely unlikely that America would do that as none of their diplomats would ever feel safe again, and would leave
Safe to what..kill people?
You would think that diplomats would have the civility to answer for their crimes, he will no doubt be leaving anyway, it may be some time before this is swept under the carpet and his wife allowed to return here without facing police questioning.
...I guess that it could be argued that it’s potentially more dangerous for to her to have diplomatic immunity...?...because this is now being reported worldwide and everyone knows who she is and that there is a death involved and in the USA, already the social media storms are happening with real hate stuff against her.../...the diplomatic protection is an ‘add on’ to the hate...
Oliver_W
07-10-2019, 11:24 AM
Diplomatic immunity has its place, but that place is not when reckless driving leads to a teenager being killed.
Tom4784
07-10-2019, 12:00 PM
The wife should be made to return and face justice, I don't think immunity should count when it comes to deadly crimes.
In an ideal world we'd be able to pressure the US into sending her back but I imagine our government will be keen to brush this under the carpet since we're gonna be dependant on them if we leave the EU without a deal. Can't upset our new masters, after all.
arista
07-10-2019, 12:31 PM
1181175685697691649
Thank You Anna
at UK CNN Business HQ
Kizzy
07-10-2019, 12:42 PM
Wow boris and I agree on something! Hallefrigginlujah!
Does anyone here remember the murder of police woman Yvonne Fletcher?
She was shot by people using sub machine guns from the Libyan Embassy in 1984
The inquest into Fletcher's death reached a verdict that she was "killed by a bullet coming from one of two windows on the west side of the front on the first floor of the Libyan People's Bureau".[1] Following the breaking of diplomatic relations, Libya arrested six British nationals, the last four of whom were released after nine months in captivity.
Two years after Fletcher's murder, the event became a factor in the decision by the British prime minister, Margaret Thatcher, to allow the US bombing of Libya from bases in the UK. In 1999 a warming of diplomatic relations between Britain and Libya led to a statement from the Libyan government admitting culpability in Fletcher's shooting, and the payment of compensation. British police continued their investigation until 2017. Although sufficient evidence existed to prosecute one of the co-conspirators, no charges were brought as some of the evidence could not be raised in court due to national security concerns. As at 2018 no one has been convicted of Fletcher's murder.
A more extreme case perhaps, but the same principles applied back then.
Vicky.
07-10-2019, 02:52 PM
the problem is that unless the people get total, unquestionable immunity they are then vulnerable to kidnap, false charges, imprisonment .... thats why it is total immunity. We have the right to expel diplomats as we see fit, but that is the extent of our jurisdiction
I don't really know much about this topic tbh. But does this mean basically, they can commit crimes and have them waived? Kind of like when you are a police informant (or thats how it seems in shows..dont know much about that either in all honesty :laugh: )
I don't really know much about this topic tbh. But does this mean basically, they can commit crimes and have them waived? Kind of like when you are a police informant (or thats how it seems in shows..dont know much about that either in all honesty :laugh: )
they are basically above the law. They cannot be prosecuted under any circumstances no matter what crime is committed. This is a world wide thing
Vicky.
07-10-2019, 03:03 PM
they are basically above the law. They cannot be prosecuted under any circumstances no matter what crime is committed. This is a world wide thing
Thats utterly disgraceful then, IMO.
Will look into this. Seems a ridiculous decision, even moreso if its the whole world, rather that just us, protecting people who like..potentially commit murder and such :S
Thats utterly disgraceful then, IMO.
Will look into this. Seems a ridiculous decision, even moreso if its the whole world, rather that just us, protecting people who like..potentially commit murder and such :S
well they are there as representatives of foreign governments, so the governments should only be appointing people of the highest integrity. However, many of the diplomats are basically spies that go around assassinating people they don't like so ...... well, its the only method there is to protect the good guys that are there to look after their country's citizens
user104658
07-10-2019, 04:26 PM
Diplomatic immunity is important for the reasons bots has stated and its important that the HOST country can't over-ride immunity, because of the risk of corruption and false charges.
However, I think it should be expected as a matter of etiquette that when it is a genuine crime or legal issue, the diplomats country of origin waives immunity and proceedings go ahead.
Best of both worlds then as it removes the risk to the diplomat from the host country, as the ability to arrest / pursue charges would always have to be triggered by the diplomat's home country.
Kizzy
07-10-2019, 06:48 PM
Does anyone here remember the murder of police woman Yvonne Fletcher?
She was shot by people using sub machine guns from the Libyan Embassy in 1984
A more extreme case perhaps, but the same principles applied back then.
It is literally nothing like what has happened here.... Nothing.
These are the diplomats that we are to believe when they spout of how bad brexit will be:joker:
......I don't think so sonny jim:nono:
Crooked bastards
Marsh.
08-10-2019, 03:42 PM
I thought diplomatic immunity was in relation to another country's laws being in anyway different to that of their home country? So they are "immune" from it? How is she allowed to be "immune" from being involved in someone's death? :shrug:
...apparently, diplomatic immunity doesn’t apply to Anne Sacoolas...and she has actually been fully cooperative with the police since the incident.../...the story is not how it has been reported in the media...is what the media are reporting now../...confusing...
https://news.sky.com/story/diplomats-wife-devastated-and-wants-to-meet-harry-dunns-parents-11833917
The UK and US have agreed to end the "anomaly" that allowed the woman suspected of causing Harry Dunn's death to claim diplomatic immunity.
A court heard last month that the "secret agreement" permitted Anne Sacoolas to return to her home country after a road crash which killed the 19-year-old in August last year outside RAF Croughton in Northamptonshire.
Despite the document now being amended, Harry's alleged killer still remains in the US.
His mother Charlotte Charles said the announcement was a "huge step forward" - adding that one of the family's aims was for this to "never happen to another family again".
But she added their campaign would continue for Ms Sacoolas to be brought back to the UK.
Foreign Secretary Dominic Raab said the changes mean a similar tragedy "could not happen again".
He added: "I know these changes won't bring Harry back, and I appreciate the pain and suffering the family are still going through.
https://news.sky.com/story/harry-dunn-death-uk-and-us-agree-to-end-diplomatic-immunity-anomaly-12033855
Oliver_W
22-07-2020, 11:42 AM
Diplomatic immunity should only be applied in this case if it turns out she's secretly a CIA agent and Harry Dunn was some kind of terrorist, which I'd say is ... unlikely.
I'm pretty sure diplomatic immunity was never meant to be for cases where reckless driving took an innocent life.
Captain.Remy
22-07-2020, 12:40 PM
No diplomatic immunity for anybody. Plain and simple.
You did something wrong, your job shouldn't keep you safe from consequences.
Livia
22-07-2020, 12:48 PM
Diplomatic immunity should only be applied in this case if it turns out she's secretly a CIA agent and Harry Dunn was some kind of terrorist, which I'd say is ... unlikely.
I'm pretty sure diplomatic immunity was never meant to be for cases where reckless driving took an innocent life.
I agree. I see the need for diplomatic immunity but up till now it's been easily flouted.
Livia
22-07-2020, 12:49 PM
It is literally nothing like what has happened here.... Nothing.
Except two people died in the two incidents, and two people got away with it due to diplomatic immunity. So maybe a little like what happened here.
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