BAME offenders 'far more likely than others' to be jailed for drug offences

[Twosugars]

Black and minority ethnic offenders are far more likely to be sent to prison for drug offences than other defendants, according to groundbreaking research commissioned by the Sentencing Council.

The stark disparity in courtroom outcomes is exposed by the official body that advises judges as it prepares to update guidelines for dealing with drug offenders in England and Wales.

The investigation reinforces concerns raised by the review conducted by the Labour MP David Lammy on behalf of the Ministry of Justice in 2017 that found that BAME individuals face bias in court.

The Sentencing Council’s research concentrated on associations between an offender’s sex and ethnicity and the type and length of sentence they received in three supply-related drug crimes. It drew on statistics from crown court records between 2012 and 2015.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/jan/15/bame-offenders-most-likely-to-be-jailed-for-drug-offences-research-reveals

[Kizzy]

There are disparities between many groups men/ women, black/ white, privileged/ underprivileged, white collar/ blue collar the whole system is flawed.

Seeing examples like this exposes it, our justice system is better than some but needs improvement.

[Twosugars]

Bias in court.

[Twosugars]

Where is Oliver to argue we are all equal?

[Shaun]

Water is wet

[Oliver_W]

Is this a similar thing to the "wage gap" where different positions and hours worked different specific drug crimes result in different pay sentencing? The article didn't say the same drug crimes resulted in different sentences.

Smoking weed while walking down the street is a drug crime, as is pushing class A drugs onto kids. Both drug crimes, both deserve different responses.

[Marsh.]

And you're saying all white drug offences are guilty of smoking weed and the BAME ones are pushing A class drugs onto kids.

Yeah, definitely not racist.

[Oliver_W]

And you're saying all white drug offences are guilty of smoking weed and the BAME ones are pushing A class drugs onto kids.

Yeah, definitely not racist.

Not at all :shrug: people of all races do both things, but they don't all get caught.

[Marsh.]

Not at all :shrug: people of all races do both things, but they don't all get caught.

And women don't work as many hours as men. :thumbs:

[Oliver_W]

And women don't work as many hours as men. :thumbs:

They statistically don't.

https://iwpr.org/publications/gender-inequality-work-hours-future-of-work/

[Beso]

A lot of sentencing is judged upon ones personal circumstances..like jobs, home life etc..most of these kids being sentenced would have had a social visit...so perhaps that's where the blame lies...social sevices.

[Marsh.]

They statistically don't.

https://iwpr.org/publications/gender-inequality-work-hours-future-of-work/

I didn't really ask you to justify why men and women doing the SAME job should be paid differently but I know you like to be different.

[Swan]

I didn't really ask you to justify why men and women doing the SAME job should be paid differently but I know you like to be different.

No you didn't, you said 'and women don't work as many hours as men' (which statistically they don't). Nothing to do with the SAME job argument. Doing the same job, and the same hours is different to not working as many hours. But well played on trying to divert the argument.

[Marsh.]

No you didn't, you said 'and women don't work as many hours as men' (which statistically they don't). Nothing to do with the SAME job argument. Doing the same job, and the same hours is different to not working as many hours. But well played on trying to divert the argument.

HE brought up differing hours/jobs despite the wage gap being about men and women doing the SAME job.

Not the topic of the thread but he brought up one inequality to justify another.

Please read the thread if you're going to join a discussion. :)

[Swan]

HE brought up differing hours/jobs despite the wage gap being about men and women doing the SAME job.

Not the topic of the thread but he brought up one inequality to justify another.

Please read the thread if you're going to join a discussion. :)

Ok Marsh. :)

[Oliver_W]

HE brought up differing hours/jobs despite the wage gap being about men and women doing the SAME job.

Which doesn't happen, if they work the same jobs and the same hours.

[Marsh.]

Ok Marsh. :)

You're very welcome, Swan.

[Marsh.]

Which doesn't happen, if they work the same jobs and the same hours.

Of course it doesn't Oliver.

[Oliver_W]

Of course it doesn't Oliver.

It literally doesn't, this BBC source goes into more detail :)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-37198653

The tl;dr is that the difference in pay is caused by different jobs and working hours, and that they pay disappears for women if you don't count part time workers.

[Oliver_W]

As for the apparent disparity in sentencing, I think juries should be better allocated. I don't necessarily mean black defendents should have an all black jury, but they certainly shouldn't have an all white one.

[Marsh.]

"It's not just about discrimination"

Oliver: Discrimination doesn't exist, guys!

[Oliver_W]

"It's not just about discrimination"

Oliver: Discrimination doesn't exist, guys!

I've never said discrimination doesn't exist :shrug: but unless there's some evidence out there, we can safely assume equal work=equal pay :)

[Elliot]

I've never said discrimination doesn't exist :shrug: but unless there's some evidence out there, we can safely assume equal work=equal pay :)

Idts, people usually refer to the ‘raw’ gender pay gap that just takes a median of all the salary of men and women in the workplace, when you take out the factors that people usually bring up when ‘debunking it’ there’s still a gap. I’ve seen most people attribute it to women in general being given less raises and promotions.

[Marsh.]

I've never said discrimination doesn't exist :shrug: but unless there's some evidence out there, we can safely assume equal work=equal pay :)

Yes, you did. You just said there is no discrimination contributing to the pay gap.

So, no you can't safely assume it's equal because it's not.

[Oliver_W]

Idts, people usually refer to the ‘raw’ gender pay gap that just takes a median of all the salary of men and women in the workplace, when you take out the factors that people usually bring up when ‘debunking it’ there’s still a gap. I’ve seen most people attribute it to women in general being given less raises and promotions.

True, there's probably more of a "promotions gap" than "pay gap"

[Kizzy]

Idts, people usually refer to the ‘raw’ gender pay gap that just takes a median of all the salary of men and women in the workplace, when you take out the factors that people usually bring up when ‘debunking it’ there’s still a gap. I’ve seen most people attribute it to women in general being given less raises and promotions.

That's true, and the blame is put on the women for not valuing their professional worth enough to ASK for a raise.

[Livia]

I thought this was about black people being jailed for drug offences.

[Oliver_W]

I thought this was about black people being jailed for drug offences.

Yeah sorry for the derail. I was just making a comparison - wage gap believers act like the final figures are for the same jobs instead of broad averages, so maybe the differently applied justice ("justice") is for different drug crimes?

I'm gonna enter tin foil hat territory now ... some think the gender gap in prison sentences (with men being jailed more often and for longer) is due due to outsourced prison labour (https://iwoc.iww.org.uk/prison-labour/), i.e. prisons making money from their prisoners. Men on average are stronger than women, and black men are on average stronger than us crackers, so maaaybeeee there's string-pulling so private companies can outsource the "better" physical labour for as little as possible?

[Kizzy]

Yeah sorry for the derail. I was just making a comparison - wage gap believers act like the final figures are for the same jobs instead of broad averages, so maybe the differently applied justice ("justice") is for different drug crimes?

I'm gonna enter tin foil hat territory now ... some think the gender gap in prison sentences (with men being jailed more often and for longer) is due due to outsourced prison labour (https://iwoc.iww.org.uk/prison-labour/), i.e. prisons making money from their prisoners. Men on average are stronger than women, and black men are on average stronger than us crackers, so maaaybeeee there's string-pulling so private companies can outsource the "better" physical labour for as little as possible?

Er... no. Prisoners aren't required to work in a chain gang any longer.

[Marsh.]

Yeah sorry for the derail. I was just making a comparison - wage gap believers act like the final figures are for the same jobs instead of broad averages, so maybe the differently applied justice ("justice") is for different drug crimes?

I'm gonna enter tin foil hat territory now ... some think the gender gap in prison sentences (with men being jailed more often and for longer) is due due to outsourced prison labour (https://iwoc.iww.org.uk/prison-labour/), i.e. prisons making money from their prisoners. Men on average are stronger than women, and black men are on average stronger than us crackers, so maaaybeeee there's string-pulling so private companies can outsource the "better" physical labour for as little as possible?

What century are you discussing?

[Oliver_W]

Er... no. Prisoners aren't required to work in a chain gang any longer.
The underlined part is a link, you boomer :laugh:

What century are you discussing?
This one, apparently:
One3One Solutions is the trading arm of the Ministry of Justice founded in 2012. Over 9,700 prisoners were employed in their profit-making partnerships with private companies, with a total of 13.1 million prisoner working hours being recorded (1).
Private sector prisons (those run for-profit) reported that they delivered over 1.5 million prisoner working hours involving over 1,200 prisoners in 2012/13. (1)
Prisoners working full time at a minimum will receive £4 a week. Prisoners working in workshops run by private companies may earn up to £25 per week if they are lucky.

[Kizzy]

The underlined part is a link, you boomer :laugh:



I'm aware of that no need to be so offensive!!
What was all that rubbish yesterday about rudeness to other forum members?...

Your ridiculous tin pot idea that big strong black men are jailed to do all the prison jobs is laughable!

There is literally nothing in that link to suggest that either.

[Oliver_W]

I'm aware of that no need to be so offensive!!
What was all that rubbish yesterday about rudeness to other forum members?...

Your ridiculous tin pot idea that big strong black men are jailed to do all the prison jobs is laughable!

There is literally nothing in that link to suggest that either.

To be fair I admitted it was pretty tin foil hat :joker:

[GiRTh]

Yeah sorry for the derail. I was just making a comparison - wage gap believers act like the final figures are for the same jobs instead of broad averages, so maybe the differently applied justice ("justice") is for different drug crimes?

I'm gonna enter tin foil hat territory now ... some think the gender gap in prison sentences (with men being jailed more often and for longer) is due due to outsourced prison labour (https://iwoc.iww.org.uk/prison-labour/), i.e. prisons making money from their prisoners. Men on average are stronger than women, and black men are on average stronger than us crackers, so maaaybeeee there's string-pulling so private companies can outsource the "better" physical labour for as little as possible?What the actual F...:conf:

Ollie you're starting to scare me. Where do you get this stuff from? You seem to believe alot of stereotypes and its starting to scare me. Do you think black men have got bigger dicks too? There are strong black men and weak black men, you are simply perpetuating a stereotype, nothing more nothing less. This is not the substance of serious debates.