View Full Version : Free speech case.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/02/14/police-compared-stasi-gestapo-judge-rules-interfered-freedom/
Jessica.
14-02-2020, 06:23 PM
What was the tweet? It's still being recorded as a hate incident. The right to free speech in the UK still has conditions, it doesn't allow for hateful or abusive expression.
What was the tweet? It's still being recorded as a hate incident. The right to free speech in the UK still has conditions, it doesn't allow for hateful or abusive expression.
It was a lot of tweets about transgenders, you would be banned on here if you posted them..
It was a lot of tweets about transgenders, you would be banned on here if you posted them..Shows you how authoritarian they are on here. Even the courts of the land don't agree with them.
Oliver_W
14-02-2020, 06:32 PM
Parm I wished you'd paste the article or at least relevant parts if you want to start a discussion...
Police compared to Stasi and Gestapo by judge as he rules they interfered in freedom of speech by investigating 'non crime' trans tweet
Humberside Police unlawfully interfered with a man's right to freedom of expression by turning up at his place of work over his allegedly "transphobic" tweets, the High Court has ruled.
Former police officer Harry Miller, 54, who founded the campaign group Fair Cop, said the police's actions had a "substantial chilling effect" on his right to free speech.
Mr Miller, who is from Lincolnshire, claims an officer told him that he had not committed a crime, but that his tweeting was being recorded as a "hate incident".
(cuts off here due to paywall)
> https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/02/14/police-compared-stasi-gestapo-judge-rules-interfered-freedom/
He didn't even write the tweets himself, he reposted someone else's limerick, so it's pathetic he got even a portion of the blame.
Citing 30 potentially offensive tweets, the PC singled out a limerick Mr Miller had retweeted which questioned whether transgender women are biological women. It included the lines: "Your breasts are made of silicone, your vagina goes nowhere."
:joker:
Oliver_W
14-02-2020, 06:33 PM
What was the tweet? It's still being recorded as a hate incident. The right to free speech in the UK still has conditions, it doesn't allow for hateful or abusive expression.
It should do. Until violence is called for, nothing should be off the table.
Jessica.
14-02-2020, 06:36 PM
It was a lot of tweets about transgenders, you would be banned on here if you posted them..
I just looked into it and saw some awful tweets which he retweeted. He seems like a very hateful man and I am glad that he ended up in court for what he said even if the judge didn't see it as a crime. I agree that he has the right to say that he doesn't understand trans people but the way he went about it was not warranted and I hope he will make better decisions in the future.
Jessica.
14-02-2020, 06:38 PM
He didn't even write the tweets himself, he reposted someone else's limerick, so it's pathetic he got even a portion of the blame.
I believe he was reprimanded for multiple tweets and not just that verse that he retweeted.
Jessica.
14-02-2020, 06:38 PM
It should do. Until violence is called for, nothing should be off the table.
It doesn't matter if you think it should though, it's the law.
Parm I wished you'd paste the article or at least relevant parts if you want to start a discussion...
> https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/02/14/police-compared-stasi-gestapo-judge-rules-interfered-freedom/
He didn't even write the tweets himself, he reposted someone else's limerick, so it's pathetic he got even a portion of the blame.
:joker:
The relevant parts are the tweets themselves..bbc news just showed them...but I'm not going to on here..Im no daft oliver. .:nono:
Elliot
14-02-2020, 08:02 PM
It should do. Until violence is called for, nothing should be off the table.
Racism shouldn’t be off the table? Homophobia shouldn’t be off the table? (Don’t understand why it’d be different for transphobia anyway but w/e)
Oliver_W
14-02-2020, 08:53 PM
Racism shouldn’t be off the table? Homophobia shouldn’t be off the table? (Don’t understand why it’d be different for transphobia anyway but w/e)
Nope, it's all just words.
If people want to be exposed as racists, homophobes, or transphobes then give them the spotlight!
I've said umpteen times but freedom of speech is NOT freedom from consequences
Oliver_W
14-02-2020, 09:50 PM
I've said umpteen times but freedom of speech is NOT freedom from consequences
I completely agree with this. And there should only be consequences if violence is called for. Otherwise, the law has no place when it comes to the sounds peoples' mouths make.
If someone walks up to a black guy and calls him the N-word, he shouldn't face any legal consequences. The black guy is completely free to call him a cracker, and they can both go on their merry way. Or the black guy can punch him in the gob. Then the white guy can either hit him back, or file assault charges.
That's how it should be, anyway.
I completely agree with this. And there should only be consequences if violence is called for. Otherwise, the law has no place when it comes to the sounds peoples' mouths make.
If someone walks up to a black guy and calls him the N-word, he shouldn't face any legal consequences. The black guy is completely free to call him a cracker, and they can both go on their merry way. Or the black guy can punch him in the gob. Then the white guy can either hit him back, or file assault charges.
That's how it should be, anyway.No sorry I completely disagree with you, hate speech is against the law and therefore should be dealt with accordingly
Oliver_W
14-02-2020, 10:16 PM
No sorry I completely disagree with you, hate speech is against the law and therefore should be dealt with accordingly
I didn't say hate speech wasn't against the law. I was saying the law shouldn't have an opinion on it whatsoever, and it shouldn't be dealt with at all.
Jessica.
14-02-2020, 10:18 PM
I didn't say hate speech wasn't against the law. I was saying the law shouldn't have an opinion on it whatsoever, and it shouldn't be dealt with at all.
You don't deserve that opinion since you obviously haven't spent your life dealing with hateful people.
Oliver_W
14-02-2020, 10:31 PM
You don't deserve that opinion since you obviously haven't spent your life dealing with hateful people.
Everyone deserves an opinion.
I didn't say hate speech wasn't against the law. I was saying the law shouldn't have an opinion on it whatsoever, and it shouldn't be dealt with at all.You are basically saying people should be allowed to be as hateful as they like towards others as long as no violence is involved
michael21
14-02-2020, 10:49 PM
Why is catfish not against the law some but not all are hurtful I seen It on mtv
Cat the show cat the show
Oliver_W
14-02-2020, 11:00 PM
You are basically saying people should be allowed to be as hateful as they like towards others as long as no violence is involved
Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying :)
Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying :)I dont really know what kind of reply you expect to that.
Oliver_W
14-02-2020, 11:07 PM
I dont really know what kind of reply you expect to that.
You could try saying why you think people shouldn't have the right to say what they want?
You could try saying why you think people shouldn't have the right to say what they want?I dont think that though, people saying what they think/want and people inciting hatred are two completely different things, the latter is harrasment and abuse both of which are illegal and rightly so.
Jessica.
14-02-2020, 11:16 PM
What do you think would benefit us if it were legal to say hateful and abusive things?
What do you think would benefit us if it were legal to say hateful and abusive things?
Absolutely nothing..
Oliver_W
15-02-2020, 12:22 AM
I dont think that though, people saying what they think/want and people inciting hatred are two completely different things, the latter is harrasment and abuse both of which are illegal and rightly so.
Hatred is just an emotional response, "inciting" it shouldn't be a legal matter either.
What do you think would benefit us if it were legal to say hateful and abusive things?
How would it be beneficial to control what people can and cannot say? Why is people not feeling upset for a few minutes more important than freedom?
Hatred is just an emotional response, "inciting" it shouldn't be a legal matter either.
How would it be beneficial to control what people can and cannot say? Why is people not feeling upset for a few minutes more important than freedom?
I think the thought is..
Why would you want to say hateful things.:shrug:
Imo there is no need of it outside comedy or parody...
Oliver_W
15-02-2020, 01:18 AM
I think the thought is..
Why would you want to say hateful things.:shrug:
Imo there is no need of it outside comedy or parody...
There's no need to eat more than enough to stay alive, and no need to watch television. We should be able to do things we don't need, as long it doesn't directly lead to violence.
people say hateful and spiteful things everyday - many examples are on this very forum, nobody bats an eye and it's not illegal, but it suddenly becomes a problem if a protected group is referenced. It's not a level playing field.
Personally, i think things have gone too far. We are now at the point where if 1 single person takes offence at something someone said, then it is classified as a hate incident. That is 100% wrong, and I can't believe that is now the law.
Mystic Mock
15-02-2020, 08:25 AM
To me I'd meet Oliver halfway on this topic.
I personally don't think that verbally attacking a group of people on Social Media should see you arrested. And I do agree with Oliver that violent hate crimes should definitely see the thug that committed the offence arrested.
However we do get cases where say a Lesbian woman is getting harassed by a straight guy for being a Lesbian, and he keeps hurling abuse at her, imo that individual should also be arrested for harassment and a hate crime as he would've deliberately targeted her because she's a Lesbian.
Obviously I'm just putting out a hypothetical scenario there (that was also quite long winded) but I hope that you guys understand what I'm trying to say.:joker:
thesheriff443
15-02-2020, 08:38 AM
You can cause pain/distress and fear by using words without the need for physical violence so that’s why the law is rightfully in place.
And even calling someone fat and ugly can lead to them taking their own life.
It’s about what’s being said who it’s being said to, why it’s being said and who is saying it.
Nicky91
15-02-2020, 08:44 AM
To me I'd meet Oliver halfway on this topic.
I personally don't think that verbally attacking a group of people on Social Media should see you arrested. And I do agree with Oliver that violent hate crimes should definitely see the thug that committed the offence arrested.
However we do get cases where say a Lesbian woman is getting harassed by a straight guy for being a Lesbian, and he keeps hurling abuse at her, imo that individual should also be arrested for harassment and a hate crime as he would've deliberately targeted her because she's a Lesbian.
Obviously I'm just putting out a hypothetical scenario there (that was also quite long winded) but I hope that you guys understand what I'm trying to say.:joker:
yes i understand, i mean on social media you can block certain people, or put your profile to private (visible to friends only)
in real life, and out on the Streets, you can't so you're less protected against hate crime
people say hateful and spiteful things everyday - many examples are on this very forum, nobody bats an eye and it's not illegal, but it suddenly becomes a problem if a protected group is referenced. It's not a level playing field.
Personally, i think things have gone too far. We are now at the point where if 1 single person takes offence at something someone said, then it is classified as a hate incident. That is 100% wrong, and I can't believe that is now the law.Of course it's not a level playing field though because certain groups of people haven't been targeted by hate and prejudice for centuries.
Of course it's not a level playing field though because certain groups of people haven't been targeted by hate and prejudice for centuries.What about groups like Brexiteers? All thick, racist, bigots who don't know what they're doing. Have they been the target of hate crimes over the past few years?
Katie Hopkins receives abusive comments everyday. Is she the victim of hate crimes?
Katie Hopkins receives abusive comments everyday. Is she the victim of hate crimes?I would say she is more guilty of inciting hate than receiving it tbh
That said, none of it is ok IMO
Elliot
15-02-2020, 11:20 AM
as long it doesn't directly lead to violence.
But hatred often leads to violence..
But hatred often leads to violence..Only if the person commiting the violence, is violent.
Kizzy
15-02-2020, 01:46 PM
Have you seen the flak the creator of father ted is getting over his views?
e79k6LILL1I
Livia
15-02-2020, 01:52 PM
people say hateful and spiteful things everyday - many examples are on this very forum, nobody bats an eye and it's not illegal, but it suddenly becomes a problem if a protected group is referenced. It's not a level playing field.
Personally, i think things have gone too far. We are now at the point where if 1 single person takes offence at something someone said, then it is classified as a hate incident. That is 100% wrong, and I can't believe that is now the law.
There's nothing more to be said.
Kizzy
15-02-2020, 02:05 PM
That's not what's happening though, one person is not offended many are... What is the issue is the opinions and views of those who have spoken out against certain topics relating to the trans community and being vilified for it.
As seen here being investigated, losing work, receiving death and rape threats.
Elliot
15-02-2020, 02:10 PM
That's not what's happening though, one person is not offended many are... What is the issue is the opinions and views of those who have spoken out against certain topics relating to the trans community and being vilified for it.
As seen here being investigated, losing work, receiving death and rape threats.
Hating trans people is basically the status quo in the uk :skull: I swear every media personality here has some sort of variety of these views.. it’s not like it’s this unpopular opinion speaking truth to power.
Kizzy
15-02-2020, 02:36 PM
Hating trans people is basically the status quo in the uk :skull: I swear every media personality here has some sort of variety of these views.. it’s not like it’s this unpopular opinion speaking truth to power.
That's not true, and a celebrity is not void from an opinion they have no more power than you or I to change anything except a wider reach.
Oliver_W
15-02-2020, 05:56 PM
Of course it's not a level playing field though because certain groups of people haven't been targeted by hate and prejudice for centuries.
No-one has been alive for centuries. Things have moved on, we're not our ancestors. Class/wealth has more impact on people's lives than their race. Otherwise, the playing field is basically level.
No-one has been alive for centuries. Things have moved on, we're not our ancestors. Class/wealth has more impact on people's lives than their race. Otherwise, the playing field is basically level.I never said anyone has been alive for centuries but hate and prejudice certainly has
Also wouldn't say things had moved on so much when we still have people saying hate speech is ok and should be allowed
Withano
15-02-2020, 06:14 PM
Hatred is just an emotional response, "inciting" it shouldn't be a legal matter either.
How would it be beneficial to control what people can and cannot say? Why is people not feeling upset for a few minutes more important than freedom?
If you think freedom is the ability to call a black person a ******, then you’ve never truly been restricted.
Withano
15-02-2020, 06:23 PM
Katie Hopkins receives abusive comments everyday. Is she the victim of hate crimes?
The words she chooses to use is not part of her DNA or culture so no, not even close
Oliver_W
15-02-2020, 06:23 PM
I never said anyone has been alive for centuries but hate and prejudice certainly has
Also wouldn't say things had moved on so much when we still have people saying hate speech is ok and should be allowed
Anyone can be hateful, it's not restricted to white straight cis people.
Anyone can be hateful, it's not restricted to white straight cis people.No one said it is? What an odd comment
The words she chooses to use is not part of her DNA or culture so no, not even closeWhat you talking about? I don't know what you're saying.
user104658
15-02-2020, 07:31 PM
No-one has been alive for centuries. Things have moved on, we're not our ancestors. Class/wealth has more impact on people's lives than their race. Otherwise, the playing field is basically level.
Bit in bold, in the absolute most basic sense yes, but if you don't realise that there is an absolutely massive disparency in class and wealth based on race... You're not paying attention.
Oliver_W
15-02-2020, 08:10 PM
Bit in bold, in the absolute most basic sense yes, but if you don't realise that there is an absolutely massive disparency in class and wealth based on race... You're not paying attention.
Sure, but the difficulties a poor black person would face are the same ones a poor white person would face.
Withano
16-02-2020, 10:17 AM
What you talking about? I don't know what you're saying.
Katie is hated for her life choices. It’s not a hate crime until she’s hated for something that she has no control over.
Oliver_W
16-02-2020, 12:02 PM
And even calling someone fat and ugly can lead to them taking their own life.
If someone kills themselves over a bit of name-calling, they're probably messed up anyway and should have been institutionalised or at least given proper help before that could be allowed to happen.
That's not what's happening though, one person is not offended many are... What is the issue is the opinions and views of those who have spoken out against certain topics relating to the trans community and being vilified for it.
As seen here being investigated, losing work, receiving death and rape threats.
The issue is that people are vilified for their views, the views themselves aren't a valid thing to be an issue.
It's ridiculous that statements like "I don't want biological males in female spaces" are tarred with the same brush as "transpeople should be killed"
Twosugars
16-02-2020, 12:05 PM
Yeah lock up the vulnerable. As long as hate merchants have all the freedom to abuse!
The law is right, hate speech is a crime.
Oliver_W
16-02-2020, 01:22 PM
Yeah lock up the vulnerable. As long as hate merchants have all the freedom to abuse!
Do you think someone who'd kill themself over words should be left unsupervised?
Kizzy
16-02-2020, 01:27 PM
Sure, but the difficulties a poor black person would face are the same ones a poor white person would face.
That's not true, if it were why the discrepancy in stop and search? There is perdjudice and stereotyping to factor in.
Twosugars
16-02-2020, 01:38 PM
Do you think someone who'd kill themself over words should be left unsupervised?
The extend of ignorance in this post makes any dialogue pointless.
Oliver_W
16-02-2020, 01:39 PM
That's not true, if it were why the discrepancy in stop and search? There is perdjudice and stereotyping to factor in.
Are financially disadvantaged black people statistically more likely to be carrying something they shouldn't than a financially disadvantaged white person?
Livia
16-02-2020, 01:48 PM
Young black and ethnic men are more likely to be involved in knife crime both as perpetrators and as victims. That's a fact.
As stop and search has fallen, knife crime has risen. Speaks for itself.
Kizzy
16-02-2020, 01:48 PM
Are financially disadvantaged black people statistically more likely to be carrying something they shouldn't than a financially disadvantaged white person?
That wasn't your point.. your point was the issues they face are the same, they are not as white poor don't have the added predudice and stereotyping do they?
thesheriff443
16-02-2020, 01:54 PM
If someone kills themselves over a bit of name-calling, they're probably messed up anyway and should have been institutionalised or at least given proper help before that could be allowed to happen.
The issue is that people are vilified for their views, the views themselves aren't a valid thing to be an issue.
It's ridiculous that statements like "I don't want biological males in female spaces" are tarred with the same brush as "transpeople should be killed"
It’s usually kids that kill themselves after being targeted by other kids.
I think you are talking sh1t.
Livia
16-02-2020, 01:58 PM
All's well for the white poor. Well, that's a relief.
Oliver_W
16-02-2020, 02:39 PM
That wasn't your point.. your point was the issues they face are the same, they are not as white poor don't have the added predudice and stereotyping do they?
Being stopped and search isn't a huge hardship. If they just play along, they'll probably fotlrget all about it after an hour. S+S isn't exclusively a black issue, it happens to whites too, so they do face the same issues.
The Slim Reaper
16-02-2020, 02:51 PM
As the false tropes about knife crime have appeared again, posting this again.
6Huz1nx-j_Q
Oliver_W
16-02-2020, 02:52 PM
As the false tropes about knife crime have appeared again, posting this again.
6Huz1nx-j_Q
Got a transcript or tl;dr?
The Slim Reaper
16-02-2020, 02:55 PM
Got a transcript or tl;dr?
TLDR there are more important social indicators across the whole world, than being black/ethnic???? equals stabby stabby stab stab.
Oliver_W
16-02-2020, 02:59 PM
TLDR there are more important social indicators across the whole world, than being black/ethnic???? equals stabby stabby stab stab.
What do things across the whole world have to do with stabbings in London? What was his actual point, and does it show or suggest the crime rates have been misinterpreted?
The Slim Reaper
16-02-2020, 02:59 PM
Being stopped and search isn't a huge hardship. If they just play along, they'll probably fotlrget all about it after an hour. S+S isn't exclusively a black issue, it happens to whites too, so they do face the same issues.
1228734357889785856
Only 4 mins. Give it a watch and see if changes your opinion.
The Slim Reaper
16-02-2020, 03:02 PM
What do things across the whole world have to do with stabbings in London? What was his actual point, and does it show or suggest the crime rates have been misinterpreted?
Because those same indicators in London are prevalent in the favelas of brazil or the run down areas of Liverpool or Glasgow etc.
This is relevant because Glasgow actually had a worse knife Crime epidemic than London (per capita), and they addressed it successfully.
Oliver_W
16-02-2020, 03:07 PM
1228734357889785856
Only 4 mins. Give it a watch and see if changes your opinion.
Eh, the way he presents it means we have to just accept black people are regularly thrown against the wall and over the car hood for no reason. I appreciate he was (probably) just using colourful language, but the pudding felt over-egged.
I take his point though - people might be pissed off at being needlessly searched, so try to run away, and get arrest for that. I'd be interested to see percentages of "black crime" which show evading arrest and knife/drug offences.
Thank god it was subtitled, his voice really pisses me off lol
Because those same indicators in London are prevalent in the favelas of brazil or the run down areas of Liverpool or Glasgow etc.
And what are those indicators?
This is relevant because Glasgow actually had a worse knife Crime epidemic than London (per capita), and they addressed it successfully.
How did they do that?
vBulletin® v3.8.11, Copyright ©2000-2025, vBulletin Solutions Inc.