Sunday Times: 38 days Britain sleepwalked into disaster (Boris to resign trending)

[Samm]

Coronavirus: 38 days when Britain sleepwalked into disaster
Boris Johnson skipped five Cobra meetings on the virus, calls to order protective gear were ignored and scientists’ warnings fell on deaf ears. Failings in February may have cost thousands of lives

Article on Sunday Times: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/coronavirus-38-days-when-britain-sleepwalked-into-disaster-hq3b9tlgh

Here's the full article (without the paywall): https://archive.is/20200418182037/https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/coronavirus-38-days-when-britain-sleepwalked-into-disaster-hq3b9tlgh

If even the Sunday Times are criticising this government then you know they've ****ed this up, Giant expose into this government's major failings, they've cost the lives of over 15,000 people and probably more. If you read this and still have faith in our government's actions then I feel for you.

Thread about the article here;
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More reactions here;
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[Samm]

Boris to resign is now trending on Twitter;

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[Saph]

drag ha!

[SherzyK]

Well said :clap1:

Regardless of political stance, you can’t deny he’s been very negligent up until this point. The amount of lives that could have been saved had he acted sooner and not underestimated how lethal of a virus it was

[arista]

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[Samm]

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For once Piers Morgan talks a bit of sense

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[arista]

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same First name as our Mod

[arista]

"Piers Morgan talks a bit of sense "


Yes back Live GMBHD itv
monday 6AM

[Liam-]

As much as I agree with everything that has been said, nothing will happen, Tories will never be held to account, especially not Boris,, he seems to have a hold over a demographic that see him as some sort of untouchable deity above reproach, someone else will be blamed for now, until it’s all over and they can lay the blame once again at the feet of the NHS like they always do.

[arista]

drag ha!


Bitchy

[arista]

As much as I agree with everything that has been said, nothing will happen, Tories will never be held to account, especially not Boris,, he seems to have a hold over a demographic that see him as some sort of untouchable deity above reproach, someone else will be blamed for now, until it’s all over and they can lay the blame once again at the feet of the NHS like they always do.

Wise Words
Slick Liam.

He will blame his Science Advisers

[Niamh.]

1251768176704204801





same First name as our ModIt's not me [emoji33] I did know a Niamh Walsh though

[arista]

It's not me [emoji33] I did know a Niamh Walsh though

I know its just a Rare name.

[arista]

For Samm

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[arista]

Live Debate now on LBC Radio.

[Brother Leon]

About time they got called out on the disaster show. Too long there’s been an “oh we can’t dare call out the government at this time” sentiment, which was a damn joke.

[Smithy]

Appalling that he didn’t even turn up to the Cobra meetings, hope your weekend breaks were worth the thousands of lives

[MTVN]

I'm not sure this is as damaging a report as its being made out

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This is an interesting thread by someone who has examined the minutes of meetings carried out by Nervtag - New and Emerging Respiratory Virus Threats Advisory Group - in Jan and Feb

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Quite interesting to see the likes of Owen Jones - who has ranted against the Murdoch media for years - now swearing by their journalism. And as for what's trending on Twitter, that's always been completely disconnected with public opinion. I remember in the 2019 election Labour content and supporters totally dominated Twitter to the extent they thought they were going to come good on election day

I'm sure there will have been failings and mistakes made across numerous bodies - the government sure but also Sage, PHE etc - and they'll be able to be assessed in time. This desperation that we need to assign blame right now and get the pitchforks out is crazy though, as is the idea that our PM should resign right in the middle of the worst peacetime crisis in the last century - we need a stable government.

[Kizzy]

Yep finally the scales are falling from the eyes of many and the the right wing are massing the usual suspects to aid with damage limitation. .. pfft

[arista]

About time they got called out on the disaster show. Too long there’s been an “oh we can’t dare call out the government at this time” sentiment, which was a damn joke.


Sure Brother Leon
but what will change?

[Kizzy]

As much as I agree with everything that has been said, nothing will happen, Tories will never be held to account, especially not Boris,, he seems to have a hold over a demographic that see him as some sort of untouchable deity above reproach, someone else will be blamed for now, until it’s all over and they can lay the blame once again at the feet of the NHS like they always do
All of this!

[arista]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EV6-ZfqU8AAe_bu?format=jpg&name=small

[arista]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EV88F3yXsAEIMVv?format=jpg&name=medium

[user104658]

As much as I admire the unshakeable optimism; Boris will never face any sort of reckoning for this. I'd put the hopes of it in the same category as the excitement in the latter half of last year that the Tories could be voted out, when in fact, the landslide victory was never anything short of inevitable.

However yes even taking Covid completely out of the equation, Boris is out of his depth as PM. He's just not the sort of politician who should ever have been given the top job. Unprofessional and "silly"... a showman... a clown. He's not stupid but that's how he's conducted and progressed his entire career so it's not exactly surprising that now that he's reached the top and doesn't need to play thouse games any more... he doesn't actually know how to stop and put on a more sensible hat. He just doesn't have one.

[Crimson Dynamo]

If you actually read the article it basically says that the Government followed the scientific evidence from The CMO and the scientific committee. The article has very little to say other than it's easy now to see what should have been done in Feb

[Livia]

If you actually read the article it basically says that the Government followed the scientific evidence from The CMO and the scientific committee. The article has very little to say other than it's easy now to see what should have been done in Feb

And yet here's another whiney anti-government thread.

[Liam-]

And yet here's another whiney anti-government thread.

Anti-incompetence, not anti-government, major difference

[Kizzy]

I'm not sure this is as damaging a report as its being made out

1251811216877551616

1251801283587080195

This is an interesting thread by someone who has examined the minutes of meetings carried out by Nervtag - New and Emerging Respiratory Virus Threats Advisory Group - in Jan and Feb

1243611194512072704

Quite interesting to see the likes of Owen Jones - who has ranted against the Murdoch media for years - now swearing by their journalism. And as for what's trending on Twitter, that's always been completely disconnected with public opinion. I remember in the 2019 election Labour content and supporters totally dominated Twitter to the extent they thought they were going to come good on election day

I'm sure there will have been failings and mistakes made across numerous bodies - the government sure but also Sage, PHE etc - and they'll be able to be assessed in time. This desperation that we need to assign blame right now and get the pitchforks out is crazy though, as is the idea that our PM should resign right in the middle of the worst peacetime crisis in the last century - we need a stable government.

For perspective. .

30th Jan the WHO declare a global public health emergency and boris addresses the nation on 31st about....brexit.

2nd March NERVTAG predict 500,000 deaths in a nation of 70 million, 3rd March boris addresses the nation to cheerfully boast about shaking hands with Covid patients in hospital.

That's the reality of the situation, it's wouldn't have mattered if the scientists had screamed in his ear with a megaphone. ..Boris does what boris wants.

[Livia]

Anti-incompetence, not anti-government, major difference

Well, the government are being called incompetent. Don't see people claiming the same about Italy and Spain. Anyone can say now that they would have done things differently.

[user104658]

2nd March NERVTAG predict 500,000 deaths in a nation of 70 million, 3rd March boris addresses the nation to cheerfully boast about shaking hands with Covid patients in hospital.

To be fair - unless something DRASTICALLY changes, 500k deaths seems like a huge over-estimation at this point.

[Kizzy]

And yet here's another whiney anti-government thread.

And here you are as usual not to comment on the thread but to have a whine.. Go police chat and games Livia they don't talk about issues affecting our lives that much there I'll bet the government is rarely mentioned!

You will never stop anyone having or voicing their views and opinions, it makes me wonder why you indulge in this charade every time anyone posts any critique.

[Samm]

Well, the government are being called incompetent. Don't see people claiming the same about Italy and Spain. Anyone can say now that they would have done things differently.

Because most of the users on this forum are/live in the UK? It’s a forum centred around Big Brother UK ffs, of course posters are going to focus on our government.

If you look at Germany for example you can see how they followed the correct measures, I believe it’s mentioned in the article. As for the scientific advisers, they’re advisers, not leaders of our country, they don’t make the decisions, the government shall be hold accountable.

[Samm]

And here you are as usual not to comment on the thread but to have a whine.. Go police chat and games Livia they don't talk about issues affecting our lives that much there I'll bet the government is rarely mentioned!

You will never stop anyone having or voicing their views and opinions, it makes me wonder why you indulge in this charade every time anyone posts any critique.

Well said kizzy! :wavey:

[Livia]

And here you are as usual not to comment on the thread but to have a whine.. Go police chat and games Livia they don't talk about issues affecting our lives that much there I'll bet the government is rarely mentioned!

You will never stop anyone having or voicing their views and opinions, it makes me wonder why you indulge in this charade every time anyone posts any critique.

Well, fortunately you don't get to say what I say or where I say it.

Stick to the topic and please stop discussing me.

[Livia]

Because most of the users on this forum are/live in the UK? It’s a forum centred around Big Brother UK ffs, of course posters are going to focus on our government.

If you look at Germany for example you can see how they followed the correct measures, I believe it’s mentioned in the article. As for the scientific advisers, they’re advisers, not leaders of our country, they don’t make the decisions, the government shall be hold accountable.


I was going to reply until you added the FFS.

Now you can FO.

[Kizzy]

To be fair - unless something DRASTICALLY changes, 500k deaths seems like a huge over-estimation at this point.

At which point.. this was the observations in late feb/ March from NERVTAG prior to lockdown. You might not agree but that's besides the point, I've heard of armchair psychology but armchair epidemiology?

[MTVN]

For perspective. .

30th Jan the WHO declare a global public health emergency and boris addresses the nation on 31st about....brexit.

2nd March NERVTAG predict 500,000 deaths in a nation of 70 million, 3rd March boris addresses the nation to cheerfully boast about shaking hands with Covid patients in hospital.

That's the reality of the situation, it's wouldn't have mattered if the scientists had screamed in his ear with a megaphone. ..Boris does what boris wants.

Maybe because we left the EU on the 31st Brexit was slightly relevant. At that time we had 2 cases in the UK

[user104658]

armchair epidemiology?

And what exactly is it that you think you're doing Kizzy? If you're going to start applying "rules" to people's opinions, you could at least apply them to yourself as well. You seem to have very strong opinions on what should/shouldn't have been done and what effect those actions will have had. You're very, very sure about it, in fact? And of how much better things would be now if only things had been done the way Dr Kizzy Hindsight thinks they should have been done? Have you been secretly night-schooling in virology to gain the upper hand in TiBB soapboxing?

Glass houses, stones, etc...

[Denver]

Do people really expect a 2 year lockdown the second news spreads of the first case?

A lockdown is not easy and you cant just close everything without serious though.

Also WHO have backtracked a few times so they are nit that reliable

[Kizzy]

Well, the government are being called incompetent. Don't see people claiming the same about Italy and Spain. Anyone can say now that they would have done things differently.

They will be held accountable by their own people, we are concerned with our own response and there is nothing wrong with questioning that.

I think you are being really unfair and more than a little insensitive to Italy seeing as they were affected so quickly and severely. .. They had precious little time to prepare, we on the other hand had Italy as a model we saw the spread and the deaths and still dragged our heels.

[Denver]

At the end of the day lockdown the country was not realistic in Jamuary when little was known

[arista]

Because most of the users on this forum are/live in the UK? It’s a forum centred around Big Brother UK ffs, of course posters are going to focus on our government.

If you look at Germany for example you can see how they followed the correct measures, I believe it’s mentioned in the article. As for the scientific advisers, they’re advisers, not leaders of our country, they don’t make the decisions, the government shall be hold accountable.

Yes Samm
Roche have loads of testing labs
Nothing like the UK.
We have yet to build more
than the 2 new testing labs they have.

We have to become "in house"
Stop posting Our English tests to Roche in Germany

[user104658]

We don't even know yet if strict lockdown AT ALL was a good idea, we won't know for years, I personally still think the after-effects are probably going to be so far beyond what people are imagining that it'll be viewed, in historic terms, as a catastrophic global error of judgement. A chapter entitled "lol... wups" in the history books of the year 2220. My feeling is that the next decade is going to make the last few months look like a holiday camp, and 1000-deaths-a-day look like good old times.

But we'll see, I guess. As Kizzy points out I'm not an expert but then :shrug: there are no experts in any of this, because the world is in entirely uncharted territory, feeling its way along a wall like Sandra Bullock in a blindfold. So there's that.

We'll see, I guess.

[arista]

At the end of the day lockdown the country was not realistic in January when little was known


Yes no Death count then.

[Kizzy]

And what exactly is it that you think you're doing Kizzy? If you're going to start applying "rules" to people's opinions, you could at least apply them to yourself as well. You seem to have very strong opinions on what should/shouldn't have been done and what effect those actions will have had. You're very, very sure about it, in fact? And of how much better things would be now if only things had been done the way Dr Kizzy Hindsight thinks they should have been done? Have you been secretly night-schooling in virology to gain the upper hand in TiBB soapboxing?

Glass houses, stones, etc...

Hit a nerve there I see... if I've had an opinion I've backed it with fact, you did the opposite, you took the fact NERVTAG were advising the pandemic may see half a million dead and you countered with your opinion.

[Denver]

We don't even know yet if strict lockdown AT ALL was a good idea, we won't know for years, I personally still think the after-effects are probably going to be so far beyond what people are imagining that it'll be viewed, in historic terms, as a catastrophic global error of judgement. A chapter entitled "lol... wups" in the history books of the year 2220. My feeling is that the next decade is going to make the last few months look like a holiday camp, and 1000-deaths-a-day look like good old times.

But we'll see, I guess. As Kizzy points out I'm not an expert but then :shrug: there are no experts in any of this, because the world is in entirely uncharted territory, feeling its way along a wall like Sandra Bullock in a blindfold. So there's that.

We'll see, I guess.

The country was lockdown because people didnt care they was advised to social distance so what did that do? Get closer to strangers then they get have done.

It was a very last case scenario that could have been avoided

And it seems to work for Sweden as they dont have a massive death count

[arista]

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/660/cpsprodpb/C6BA/production/_111847805_f-stim-19aprsmall.jpg

[arista]

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/660/cpsprodpb/114DA/production/_111847807_f-obs-19apr1uk02.jpg

[user104658]

Hit a nerve there I see... if I've had an opinion I've backed it with fact, you did the opposite, you took the fact NERVTAG were advising the pandemic may see half a million dead and you countered with your opinion.

You did hit a nerve Kizzy - there's nothing I like less than a hypocrite, and you soapbox your opinions on here dressed up as "fact" on the daily... which is fine... but then to take issue with other people and make sarcastic comments for having a counter-opinion? Ridiculous.

Cherry picking scattered segments of information that happen to suit your political agenda does not constitute "backing yourself up with facts".

[arista]

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/660/cpsprodpb/0752/production/_111847810_f-sunday-people.jpg

[Kizzy]

Maybe because we left the EU on the 31st Brexit was slightly relevant. At that time we had 2 cases in the UK

And maybe it's because it's because he's a weak leader. If he wasn't he'd have realised that during a global pandemic we have more important things to worry about and we require relevant and up to date information on that?

[Denver]

And maybe it's because it's because he's a weak leader. If he wasn't he'd have realised that during a global pandemic we have more important things to worry about and we require relevant and up to date information on that?

You do realise it wasnt a global pandemic in January?

[Denver]

And you can say it was because WHO told me but the facts are you cant fall something a global pandemic when only a few people had died

[Kizzy]

We don't even know yet if strict lockdown AT ALL was a good idea, we won't know for years, I personally still think the after-effects are probably going to be so far beyond what people are imagining that it'll be viewed, in historic terms, as a catastrophic global error of judgement. A chapter entitled "lol... wups" in the history books of the year 2220. My feeling is that the next decade is going to make the last few months look like a holiday camp, and 1000-deaths-a-day look like good old times.

But we'll see, I guess. As Kizzy points out I'm not an expert but then :shrug: there are no experts in any of this, because the world is in entirely uncharted territory, feeling its way along a wall like Sandra Bullock in a blindfold. So there's that.

We'll see, I guess.

No you're not, there are epidemiologists though who thankfully are experts. I think they will do a better job than you or Sandra :)

[Denver]

No you're not, there are epidemiologists though who thankfully are experts. I think they will do a better job than you or Sandra :)

Bit not you who are cloaming to know more then anyone else?

[Kizzy]

You do realise it wasnt a global pandemic in January?

30 January 2020

The WHO Director-General reconvened the Emergency Committee (EC). This was earlier than the 10-day period and only two days after the first reports of limited human-to-human transmission were reported outside China. This time, the EC reached consensus and advised the Director-General that the outbreak constituted a Public Health Emergency of International Concern (PHEIC). The Director-General accepted the recommendation and declared the novel coronavirus outbreak (2019-nCoV) a PHEIC.*This is the 6th time WHO has declared a PHEIC since the International Health Regulations (IHR) came into force in 2005.

[MTVN]

The WHO did not announce a global pandemic until March 11th

[Denver]

30 January 2020

The WHO Director-General reconvened the Emergency Committee (EC). This was earlier than the 10-day period and only two days after the first reports of limited human-to-human transmission were reported outside China. This time, the EC reached consensus and advised the Director-General that the outbreak constituted a Public Health Emergency of International Concern (PHEIC). The Director-General accepted the recommendation and declared the novel coronavirus outbreak (2019-nCoV) a PHEIC.*This is the 6th time WHO has declared a PHEIC since the International Health Regulations (IHR) came into force in 2005.
You cant call something with less then 10 deaths a global pandemic at that point, countries had to seek advice on the situation and do what they thought was best and the earliest advice was only the old wherein danger so that's why they were protected at first

[Denver]

I know on the 26th of January china had about 200 cases and 3 deaths and its had 1 case in a about 8 other countries so there is no way you would call that a global pandemic

[user104658]

No you're not, there are epidemiologists though who thankfully are experts. I think they will do a better job than you or Sandra :)

I'm not trying to do any sort of "job", I'm having an opinion. I know it confuses you when people exist who have opinions that differ from yours, Kizzy, but considering a couple of weeks ago you thought that the four common coronavirus strains were "This one", "The Bird Flu", "A sneeze" and "That feeling you get when something spicy goes down the wrong way" I'm content with following the official advice of the experts, whilst maintaining my own opinions and not having them altered by whatever you happen to have read most recently.

[Kizzy]

The WHO did not announce a global pandemic until March 11th

That's right ok yes but prior to that it was still a Public Health Emergency of International Concern (PHEIC). Which has enough gravitas to warrant a mention don't you think?... it's a bit of a game changer in relation to international relations.

[Denver]

Also people are forgetting that everyone was told the young and healthy would surive it and very unlikely to catch it again hence why Boris went ahead with allowing people to stay and and not social distance it wasnt something he did out of spite he did what he was advised

[Kizzy]

You cant call something with less then 10 deaths a global pandemic at that point, countries had to seek advice on the situation and do what they thought was best and the earliest advice was only the old wherein danger so that's why they were protected at first

You're right it wasn't a pandemic, was reading the wrong link in the timeline however a Public Health Emergency of International Concern (PHEIC) is still pretty serious therefore the point I made initially about it not even warranting a mention in his brexit speech on 31st of Jan is still valid.

[Kizzy]

I'm not trying to do any sort of "job", I'm having an opinion. I know it confuses you when people exist who have opinions that differ from yours, Kizzy, but considering a couple of weeks ago you thought that the four common coronavirus strains were "This one", "The Bird Flu", "A sneeze" and "That feeling you get when something spicy goes down the wrong way" I'm content with following the official advice of the experts, whilst maintaining my own opinions and not having them altered by whatever you happen to have read most recently.

TS.. calm down, I passed a comment on your post you didn't like it I get it.

[Kizzy]

Bit not you who are cloaming to know more then anyone else?

I'm not cloaming anything.

[Samm]

The country was lockdown because people didnt care they was advised to social distance so what did that do? Get closer to strangers then they get have done.

It was a very last case scenario that could have been avoided

And it seems to work for Sweden as they dont have a massive death count

Sweden’s population is 10 million our population is over 60 million, they’re death count would of course be lower regardless

[Livia]

"Boris to resign trending..." In the title.

All you need to know about this thread. Anti-government propaganda supported with dubious statistics and hindsight.

[Livia]

Sweden’s population is 10 million our population is over 60 million, they’re death count would of course be lower regardless

Statistics I've seen are worked out per head of capita.

[Denver]

Sweden’s population is 10 million our population is over 60 million, they’re death count would of course be lower regardless

Yes but people listen over there where as more people went out then usually when they was advised to stay in which was the reason for a full lockdown.

The state of people in clubs and bars was horrendous when they was told to stay home and now those same people are the o es telling people to stay at home and be safe.

You have to blame the government for letting people to do it and not being stricter but also blame the people who didnt and still dont give af about spreading it.

I do think we should have gone into lockdown the day he advices people to stay in doors

[Kizzy]

Statistics I've seen are worked out per head of capita.

Are these non dubious stats though?...

[Cherie]

Yes but people listen over there where as more people went out then usually when they was advised to stay in which was the reason for a full lockdown.

The state of people in clubs and bars was horrendous when they was told to stay hsdome and now those same people are the o es telling people to stay at home and be safe.

You have to blame the government for letting people to do it and not being stricter but also blame the people who didnt and still dont give af about spreading it.

I do think we should have gone into lockdown the day he advices people to stay in doors


So true they had to be forced to stay at home, they really needed the nanny state to step in but are now complaining it wasn’t done soon enough when there was an advisory out for at least a week before lockdown to stay at home

[Livia]

Are these non dubious stats though?...

Who knows? I rarely post stats because they're mostly fiction.

[user104658]

TS.. calm down, I passed a comment on your post you didn't like it I get it.

You're aggressively baiting but w/e

[Liam-]

"Boris to resign trending..." In the title.

All you need to know about this thread. Anti-government propaganda supported with dubious statistics and hindsight.

Stating facts is propaganda now?

[Livia]

Stating facts is propaganda now?

Facts? Looking back and telling someone you would have done it differently is not facts.

[Liam-]

Facts? Looking back and telling someone you would have done it differently is not facts.

No, you specifically said the mention of the fact that something is trending as ‘proof’ that this thread is nothing but ‘propaganda’, why is factually stating something is happening propaganda?

[Kizzy]

You're aggressively baiting but w/e

Are you joking, you have a pink fit because I challenged your comment and then accuse me of baiting? Im not apologising for my comments, I stand by them so let it go and stick to the topic.

[Livia]

No, you specifically said the mention of the fact that something is trending as ‘proof’ that this thread is nothing but ‘propaganda’, why is factually stating something is happening propaganda?

It's not me, I'm afraid, Liam, it's your comprehension that's lacking.

If it's trending, it's trending. No argument there.

But why is it trending? Because of propaganda.

[Livia]

Are you joking, you have a pink fit because I challenged your comment and then accuse me of baiting? Im not apologising for my comments, I stand by them so let it go and stick to the topic.

Do you ever read your posts back Kizzy? You're the queen of the pink fit.

[Kizzy]

It's not me, I'm afraid, Liam, it's your comprehension that's lacking.

If it's trending, it's trending. No argument there.

But why is it trending? Because of propaganda.


Here is your lesson of the day kids..

If you don't agree with public opinion it's propaganda.
Let's clap the syllables. ..
PROP A GAN DA.

[Kazanne]

"Boris to resign trending..." In the title.

All you need to know about this thread. Anti-government propaganda supported with dubious statistics and hindsight.

Yep,I ignore these now, people just love to sit back and slag the government off ,NO ONE knows how many would have died but I guess its always best to blame someone,other than the source of where it came from.

[Samm]

All this anti-government bull**** is draining, I'm challenging the government, as people should be able to do, hold the government accountable for actions they make, since they do run the country and effect our lives it's important for people to challenge the government.

Way better then practising this oh our dear leader :( crap, I don't feel sorry for our MPs or PM for doing their job, they chose to be a MP or a Prime Minster for a reason it's not a job you just land yourself in.

NO ONE knows how many would have died but I guess its always best to blame someone,other than the source of where it came from.

Yes we do, with the right action and protective PPE deaths could of been avoided. As for the source China's government of course has blood on their hands however it doesn't beg the question that the virus could of been prevented from spreading rapidly in the UK with more action and flight checks at major airports which was ignored.

[user104658]

Are you joking, you have a pink fit because I challenged your comment and then accuse me of baiting? Im not apologising for my comments, I stand by them so let it go and stick to the topic.A "pink fit"? I'm frustrated because your default is angry sniping and sarcasm, it's impossible to work with at all. Every single post you make is passive aggressive. It makes bothering with engaging in threads you're in a boring waste of time. As I generally enjoy the forum... Yes... That does annoy me. You win?

[arista]

Here is your lesson of the day kids..

If you don't agree with public opinion it's propaganda.
Let's clap the syllables. ..
PROP A GAN DA.



But its all they have Kizzy.
Labour Party are not in power

[arista]

[Originally Posted by Livia
"Boris to resign trending..." In the title.]


Yes its just a Twitter Frenzy
Anti Conservatives.

Ideal for Samm


Its Fake
of course as he is not resigning

[GiRTh]

This is going to be a story whether some like it or not. Piers Morgan just slammed Boris and his friend Trump on CNN for not repsonding quickly enough to the threat. This is going to come up guys so get used to the discussion

[Smithy]

Yep,I ignore these now, people just love to sit back and slag the government off ,NO ONE knows how many would have died but I guess its always best to blame someone,other than the source of where it came from.

You ignore them and yet here you are...

[GiRTh]

jv1gCFy3iMI
Theres definitely something wrong when I agree with Piers.

[bots]

people arent really understanding the realities. The lockdown only reduces the pressure on the NHS, it reduces the rate that people are admitted to hospital. It doesn't stop people dying. We have no vaccine in sight, so people are going to continue to die for a while yet. We wont be locked down until an vaccine is produced.

All these people saying that such and such a country did it better than another is meaningless until we are at least 2 years down the line and can evaluate it properly

[GoldHeart]

All this anti-government bull**** is draining, I'm challenging the government, as people should be able to do, hold the government accountable for actions they make, since they do run the country and effect our lives it's important for people to challenge the government.

Way better then practising this oh our dear leader :( crap, I don't feel sorry for our MPs or PM for doing their job, they chose to be a MP or a Prime Minster for a reason it's not a job you just land yourself in.



Yes we do, with the right action and protective PPE deaths could of been avoided. As for the source China's government of course has blood on their hands however it doesn't beg the question that the virus could of been prevented from spreading rapidly in the UK with more action and flight checks at major airports which was ignored.


Exactly
Back in January when the outbreak happened in the UK, why did Boris drag his feet and dither so much.
And same goes for America etc.

The lockdown and the travel ban should of been in effect from the start. Or atleast quicker than it was. The actions have been slow to stop this virus or to atleast control it :bored: .

Even when Boris put us in lockdown on march 16th it still wasn't firm enough, it was more a case of "I advise you" . He had to do yet another announcement urging people to STAY HOME .

This has gone beyond "wash your hands for 20 seconds" :facepalm: .

Someone was spraying the streets to rid of germs, again another belated thing .

All we can do now is keep self isolating and hope they make a breakthrough with testing and vaccination.

[rusticgal]

people arent really understanding the realities. The lockdown only reduces the pressure on the NHS, it reduces the rate that people are admitted to hospital. It doesn't stop people dying. We have no vaccine in sight, so people are going to continue to die for a while yet. We wont be locked down until an vaccine is produced.

All these people saying that such and such a country did it better than another is meaningless until we are at least 2 years down the line and can evaluate it properly


You are absolutely right...it was to take the pressure off the NHS and bed availability.

[arista]

jv1gCFy3iMI
Theres definitely something wrong when I agree with Piers.



Yes I record that Show
Piers is so right on USA and UK


Great you posted the Video
Girth.

[MTVN]

Piers general attitude has just been that everything could have been solved if we just 'do more', 'sort it out', 'pull your finger out' etc. The idea that it's just a lack of will standing in our way. I do like him but he always simplifies everything and specialises in shouty, accusatory journalism which doesn't provide much in the way of answers but does let him claim that he's 'holding the government's feet to the fire' and pat himself on the back

[GiRTh]

Piers general attitude has just been that everything could have been solved if we just 'do more', 'sort it out', 'pull your finger out' etc. The idea that it's just a lack of will standing in our way. I do like him but he always simplifies everything and specialises in shouty, accusatory journalism which doesn't provide much in the way of answers but does let him claim that he's 'holding the government's feet to the fire' and pat himself on the backI agree, he's a total prick at times but on this issue he is absolutely right. The election doesnt matter if Trumps politial opponent can point to hundreds of thouands of americans dead while Donnies bickering with reporters at press conferences. The other day Trump used about 20 minutes of his presser to rant about the democrats holding up his federal judge appointments. What that had to do with national testing or virus policy is beyond me but thats what was on his mind. Same with Boris. Where is he? We know he had the virus but did he really almost die? IF not then why is he not at the daily briefings or why isnt he addressing the nation more often?. Chris Cuomo still does his nightly show on CNN even though he was diagnosed about three weeks ago.

[MTVN]

I agree, he's a total prick at times but on this issue he is absolutely right. The election doesnt matter if Trumps politial opponent can point to hundreds of thouands of americans dead while Donnies bickering with reporters at press conferences. The other day Trump used about 20 minutes of his presser to rant about the democrats holding up his federal judge appointments. What that had to do with national testing or virus policy is beyond me but thats what was on his mind. Same with Boris. Where is he? We know he had the virus but did he really almost die? IF not then why is he not at the daily briefings or why isnt he addressing the nation more often?. Chris Cuomo still does his nightly show on CNN even though he was diagnosed about three weeks ago.

Boris was still working 16 hour days nearly 2 weeks after he was diagnosed and that probably played some part in his condition worsening. I think the general advice is to spend a week recovering for every day spent in ICU so I don't think he should rush back to work.

It will be interesting to see how Trump's election chances will be affected. Guess it will all depend on how much he is the one blamed for those deaths. I think most polls so far still show that more Americans think he has handled it well than those who think he's handled it badly. A lot of people will agree with his criticisms of China, the WHO etc. and even though they've been badly hit by the virus just look at some of the protests there to see the differing expectations a lot of Americans have of their government. If lockdown is the only solution they'll consider the cure worse than the disease

[GiRTh]

Trumps approval ratings are tanking so I dont know what you're looking at when you say most Americans think he's handled it well. Most people are tuning into Gov Cuomo's pressers because its the only place they'll find out whats going on.

Poll: Trump's approval rating drops as coronavirus pandemic, economic crisis continue (https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2020/04/16/gallup-poll-trump-approval-slips-coronavirus-economic-crisis-continue/5147032002/)

In the meatime Cuomos approval are going thru the roof.

New Yorkers approve of Cuomo’s response to coronavirus pandemic (https://nypost.com/2020/03/30/new-yorkers-approve-of-cuomos-response-to-coronavirus-pandemic-poll/)

[Crimson Dynamo]

Boris popular with GBP

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2020/04/02/first-time-nearly-decade-britain-approves-its-gove

[bots]

Trumps support bounced up a little and has now leveled back again. Past presidents did much better in the ratings at a time of crisis

Like I said earlier, this shouldn't be measured over a month, it should be measured over 2 years at least. It's understandable at such a time that people want someone to blame, but the critical factor was to keep within the NHS's capacity, and so far, that has been successful

[MTVN]

Trumps approval ratings are tanking so I dont know what you're looking at when you say most Americans think he's handled it well. Most people are tuning into Gov Cuomo's pressers because its the only place they'll find out whats going on.

Poll: Trump's approval rating drops as coronavirus pandemic, economic crisis continue (https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2020/04/16/gallup-poll-trump-approval-slips-coronavirus-economic-crisis-continue/5147032002/)

In the meatime Cuomos approval are going thru the roof.

New Yorkers approve of Cuomo’s response to coronavirus pandemic (https://nypost.com/2020/03/30/new-yorkers-approve-of-cuomos-response-to-coronavirus-pandemic-poll/)

Yeah I was a bit out of date with that, think it was the late March/very start of April polls I'd been thinking of

I know Cuomo always speaks well but what else has he done to get such strong ratings?

[GiRTh]

Yeah I was a bit out of date with that, think it was the late March/very start of April polls I'd been thinking of

I know Cuomo always speaks well but what else has he done to get such strong ratings?He's telling the nation whats going on. Doing the job of the president while Donnie is bickering with reporters, going on for 20 minutes about what the democrats arent giving him, boasting that he's done so much you'd think the threat was over and he single handedly got rid of it, telling the country to defy the 'stay at home' order but only in states run by Democrats and pushing a dangerous untested 'miracle' cure in Hydroxychloroquine.

Hydroxychloroquine: how an unproven drug became Trump’s coronavirus 'miracle cure' (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/06/hydroxychloroquine-trump-coronavirus-drug)

That one on its own deserves further scrutiny. How dangerous is that for the President to push an untested drug. If people defy the 'stay at home' order or take the 'miracle' drug and get sick or worse die, I dunno, but couldnt it be argued that Trump was responsible for their death? I bet some clever lawyers a ready to file papers the moment it happens. Trump isnt thinking, his petty disputes and vendettas take over his entire thought process. If he loses in November it may ony be a few months before he sees the inside of a court.

[Cherie]

people arent really understanding the realities. The lockdown only reduces the pressure on the NHS, it reduces the rate that people are admitted to hospital. It doesn't stop people dying. We have no vaccine in sight, so people are going to continue to die for a while yet. We wont be locked down until an vaccine is produced.

All these people saying that such and such a country did it better than another is meaningless until we are at least 2 years down the line and can evaluate it properly

exactly people seem to be missing the point that the whole point of lockdown is so the NHS isn't overwhelmed and have to make decisions about who can have a ventilator and who doesn't like the Italian medics had to do, so that has not happened so it has to be said the lockdown was timed correctly, but when we do ever get back to normal, the virus will still be around but it will be at a time when seasonal flu is not so prevalent, so we make go back to semi normal from June to October then possibly lock down again to prevent another surge :shrug:

[Kazanne]

Piers general attitude has just been that everything could have been solved if we just 'do more', 'sort it out', 'pull your finger out' etc. The idea that it's just a lack of will standing in our way. I do like him but he always simplifies everything and specialises in shouty, accusatory journalism which doesn't provide much in the way of answers but does let him claim that he's 'holding the government's feet to the fire' and pat himself on the back

I agree,I like him well I did until now he has been so shouty and bullish I cant stand to watch him anymore, he never lets anyone finish what they want to say ,he just likes the sound of his own voice,I mean what would any government gain from not doing all they can do in this situation,its easy for us to sit back and complain but there is so much they have to get right ,and I don't think it helps with people critising all the time,its not an easy thing to get right,infact has anyone got it right so far ? as for the death count, why are people saying people have died from suspected Covid19,if they are not sure ? and isn't there supposed to be a lack of testing? if so HOW do they know a person has infact died from the virus ? if they cant be tested,I don't get that some people don't see this as a really hard thing to get right, it really cant be easy,I am sure the government would not make things difficult on purpose,too many quick to judge imo and too soon.

[MTVN]

He's telling the nation whats going on. Doing the job of the president while Donnie is bickering with reporters, going on for 20 minutes about what the democrats arent giving him, boasting that he's done so much you'd think the threat was over and he single handedly got rid of it, telling the country to defy the 'stay at home' order but only in states run by Democrats and pushing a dangerous untested 'miracle' cure in Hydroxychloroquine.

Hydroxychloroquine: how an unproven drug became Trump’s coronavirus 'miracle cure' (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/06/hydroxychloroquine-trump-coronavirus-drug)

That one on its own deserves further scrutiny. How dangerous is that for the President to push an untested drug. If people defy the 'stay at home' order or take the 'miracle' drug and get sick or worse die, I dunno, but couldnt it be argued that Trump was responsible for their death? I bet some clever lawyers a ready to file papers the moment it happens. Trump isnt thinking, his petty disputes and vendettas take over his entire thought process. If he loses in November it may ony be a few months before he sees the inside of a court.

Trump is up there every day though giving the briefing and taking questions, he probably spends more time than any other world leader taking questions from the media. Cuomo gets a lot of credit but I remember him saying there was no question of him locking down NYC in mid March even though the virus was already everywhere and then he did so a couple of days later. Wouldn't argue with the hydroxychloroquine stuff

[GiRTh]

Trump is up there every day though giving the briefing and taking questions, he probably spends more time than any other world leader taking questions from the media. Cuomo gets a lot of credit but I remember him saying there was no question of him locking down NYC in mid March even though the virus was already everywhere and then he did so a couple of days later. Wouldn't argue with the hydroxychloroquine stuffCuomo admits he got things wrong, Trump doesnt. Like I said, Trump acts like the threat has gone and he singehandedly got rid of it. We all know that not true but thats what Americans are hearing every day at Trumps pressers; at Cuomo pressers they hear whats really going on. Trump wants to re-open all businesses by May 1st. Its ludicrous but that the kind of garbage hes spouts at his conference - when he's not moaning about the Democrats. One is showing leadership while the other is more intersted in his own petty feuds.:shrug:

[bots]

people make right decisions for the wrong reasons, and wrong decisions for the right reasons too. I can't abide the way Trump has weaponised the virus for his own political gain, and the man lacks any form of moral fiber, but we have to understand that America is a huge country with vast areas still unaffected by the virus. There is no point in locking a state down if they only have a handful of people infected. NYC is a completely different beast.

It's like us locking down isolated hamlets in Scotland, it doesn't make sense

[James]

Thinking about the November election, I think the Democrats need to be careful because if they accuse Trump of things he wasn't responsible for, it will improve his re-election chances.

[Kizzy]

A "pink fit"? I'm frustrated because your default is angry sniping and sarcasm, it's impossible to work with at all. Every single post you make is passive aggressive. It makes bothering with engaging in threads you're in a boring waste of time. As I generally enjoy the forum... Yes... That does annoy me. You win?

Let it be known, I don't care.
I don't care what you make of my posts or how they make you feel. I as a forum member I am as entitled to an opinion on any thread as anyone. I wont be responding to any further outbursts.

[arista]

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/10F45/production/_111854496_f-dmirr-front20.jpg

[arista]

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/0221/production/_111854500_f-the-times-20-04-20-pg-1.jpg

[arista]

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/107D9/production/_111854576_f-gd-20apr1front01.jpg

[arista]

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/7751/production/_111854503_f-sun-front-page.jpg

[arista]

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/2931/production/_111854501_f-i-front-page-20-april.jpg

[Smithy]

“Boris fury at smears”

Aye telling everyone you skipped Cobra meetings to go on holiday is a smear isn’t it

[arista]

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/13655/production/_111854497_f-metro-p1-apr-20.jpg

[arista]

“Boris fury at smears”

Aye telling everyone you skipped Cobra meetings to go on holiday is a smear isn’t it


He Claims he was updated.
Anyone can backtrack and attack.


Soon Johnson PM
is to return to Work.
The he can answer direct to the Press
again

[arista]

Thinking about the November election, I think the Democrats need to be careful because if they accuse Trump of things he wasn't responsible for, it will improve his re-election chances.



Yes November Election
Joe Biden has to stay hidden
as Covid 19 could kill him off
as he is so old....................

[arista]

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/18475/production/_111854499_f-dtel-1001cc-dtndt-1-20042.jpg

[arista]

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/5041/production/_111854502_f-star-front-20-04-20.jpg

Zayn Malik.]

[Crimson Dynamo]

PPE procurement is not the job of HM government it's the senior NHS staffer.

[Kazanne]

He Claims he was updated.
Anyone can backtrack and attack.


Soon Johnson PM
is to return to Work.
The he can answer direct to the Press
again

I have been told that he doesn't actually have to attend all the meetings ,He has a competent team and IF anything was needed for him to be there,then he would.

[michael21]

Yes November Election
Joe Biden has to stay hidden
as Covid 19 could kill him off
as he is so old....................

Your talking about a human :fist:

[Kazanne]

PPE procurement is not the job of HM government it's the senior NHS staffer.

I know.How do they spin it as the PMs fault for items not getting there on time,maybe ,just maybe it might be the fault of the top cats at the NHS and bad admin, we all know they can be imcompetent and waste money etc.just because something comes under the name NHS, does not make it perfect.:wavey:

[user104658]

PPE procurement is not the job of HM government it's the senior NHS staffer.

Management can only put in the orders - they don't have any ability to bring it in in bulk from abroad, or to ensure that production rates are increased in the UK for ongoing availability. It's up to NHS management to order enough of it but when there's a massive supply issue in an emergency, it really needs to be the government that sources it from elsewhere or makes arrangements with manufacturers.

[GoldHeart]

“Boris fury at smears”

Aye telling everyone you skipped Cobra meetings to go on holiday is a smear isn’t it

He's such a tool bag ! :facepalm:

[MTVN]

The government has posted quite a lengthy rebuttal to many of the claims made in the article: https://healthmedia.blog.gov.uk/2020/04/19/response-to-sunday-times-insight-article/

It seems there is quite a growing backlash to what is being regarded as pretty sloppy journalism on the part of the Sunday Times

[GoldHeart]

Yes November Election
Joe Biden has to stay hidden
as Covid 19 could kill him off
as he is so old....................

Because Trump is such a spring chicken !???? :skull::whistle:

[arista]

Because Trump is such a spring chicken !???? :skull::whistle:


Sure Trump is also at Risk.


He could be taking meds already

[The Slim Reaper]

The government has posted quite a lengthy rebuttal to many of the claims made in the article: https://healthmedia.blog.gov.uk/2020/04/19/response-to-sunday-times-insight-article/

It seems there is quite a growing backlash to what is being regarded as pretty sloppy journalism on the part of the Sunday Times

A growing backlash from a certain section. The times has always been the paper with the closest ties to the conservative party, and suddenly, the party who spaffed £100m on no deal preparation propaganda are suddenly all out in force to knock down an article they didn't like, and their pushback is somehow seen as more truthful?

The same cabal that acted illegally during the referendum? The same folks with the big red bus? The people funded by Russia? Yeah, it's no surprise that the tory party is putting out an extensive rebuttal, when they can't even be arsed to record the number of care home deaths.

[Kizzy]

The government has posted quite a lengthy rebuttal to many of the claims made in the article: https://healthmedia.blog.gov.uk/2020/04/19/response-to-sunday-times-insight-article/

It seems there is quite a growing backlash to what is being regarded as pretty sloppy journalism on the part of the Sunday Times

The rebuttal has some inconsistencies too, look at the response relating to the editor of the Lancet on 23rd Jan...
He rejects the findings of one study on the global impact without evidence, it was basically his opinion.
One week later as further evidence emerged he called for a global public health emergency, essentially this vilified the original article as entirely correct.

Can I also point out that this is the same editor of the Lancet that refused to retract an article that suggested vaccines cause autism for 12yrs.

https://twitter.com/richardhorton1/status/1220606842449072128?s=19

The responses to this tweet are very interesting.

The COBRA meetings the PM Missed were not due to his presence not being required, he was on holiday.

There was a COBRA meeting on 29th Jan the global health emergency was declared on the 30th and in a speech to the nation on the 31st boris mentioned nothing in relation to covid 19.

[MTVN]

A growing backlash from a certain section. The times has always been the paper with the closest ties to the conservative party, and suddenly, the party who spaffed £100m on no deal preparation propaganda are suddenly all out in force to knock down an article they didn't like, and their pushback is somehow seen as more truthful?

The same cabal that acted illegally during the referendum? The same folks with the big red bus? The people funded by Russia? Yeah, it's no surprise that the tory party is putting out an extensive rebuttal, when they can't even be arsed to record the number of care home deaths.

I've seen quite a few journalists starting to unpick the story now and question its accuracy. It's not about who's telling the truth as such, it's about the quality of the journalism and giving it appropriate scrutiny. Like can we really infer that Hancock wasn't bothered about the virus because he was said to have 'bounced out of Whitehall' after a meeting about it and been 'breezy' with journalists? And like this article points out, how much credence can we give to some of the sources:


The piece says: 'Last week a senior adviser to Downing Street broke ranks and blamed the weeks of complacency on a failure of leadership in cabinet. The prime minister was singled out.' This would be a very serious thing for a genuine No. 10 staffer to do. But was this a No. 10 staffer? The phrase 'a senior adviser to Downing Street' is not how the Sunday Times usually describes No. 10 sources. It may be because the article has not been penned by the politics team. But the phrasing leaves room for it to be an external adviser to No. 10 rather, than a staffer. In fact, it could be anyone on any committee advising government – and from what the report doesn’t say it seems that the source didn’t have very good access.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/did-the-government-really-brush-aside-the-coronavirus-threat-in-january-/amp?__twitter_impression=true


And more problems with the articles sources

1252138116191748100

Then there was the big focus put on us sending PPE to China. It was true that we sent a small supply when they were at the height of the crisis but then it doesn't point out how we have received more than forty times what we donated from China

Keeps being said on here how healthy it is to question things so surely the same applies to this article.

[Crimson Dynamo]

In the middle of January, a WHO delegation declared that there was ‘no clear evidence of human to human transmission’. Yet by then it was already quite obvious that Chinese authorities had sought to engage in a cover-up. The police had actually threatening a Wuhan doctor, Li Wenliang, with arrest for daring to warn colleagues of a new illness which had reminded him of Sars. In the end, Dr Li died of Covid-19 himself.

(Spectator)

Did the ST do anything about this article wise ,?

Or does in not suit the owners agenda?

[Kizzy]

In the middle of January, a WHO delegation declared that there was ‘no clear evidence of human to human transmission’. Yet by then it was already quite obvious that Chinese authorities had sought to engage in a cover-up. The police had actually threatening a Wuhan doctor, Li Wenliang, with arrest for daring to warn colleagues of a new illness which had reminded him of Sars. In the end, Dr Li died of Covid-19 himself.

(Spectator)

Did the ST do anything about this article wise ,?

Or does in not suit the owners agenda?

Seeing as the owner is the most pro government person in the media who knows. Maybe he's had enough of the bull? Haven't we all? ...

[Kizzy]

Oh dear...Oh dear oh dear...

Every scientist of integrity on SAGE should resign immediately'

Richard Horton, the editor of The Lancet medical journal, has accused the government of having 'Utterly corrupted independent scientific advice."

He tweeted:*"If true that Dominic Cummings attended meetings of SAGE, then every scientist of integrity on SAGE should resign immediately. You have forfeited any claim you might have had to providing independent scientific advice to government.

"If it is true that Dominic Cummings attended meetings of SAGE, then the government led by Boris Johnson has utterly corrupted independent scientific advice; but I’m afraid to say that the scientists who sit on SAGE have allowed themselves to be corrupted, including the CSA/CMO."

The chuckle bros of politics boris and Cummings in bovver again.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/coronavirus-update-live-latest-uk-news-cases-deaths-covid-19-today-a9481346.html

[James]

Making SAGE scientists resign at this time would be about as sensible as injecting disinfectant.

[arista]

Making SAGE scientists resign at this time would be about as sensible as injecting disinfectant.

Very True
James.

[Kizzy]

Making SAGE scientists resign at this time would be about as sensible as injecting disinfectant.

But Mr Horton is the person relied upon in the government rebuttal of the times article remember, are his services no longer required as the voice of reason against fake noos?

This is yet another example of why the public lose faith in the govt, they keep being found out in areas like this where independent advisors are anything but. As the saying goes, don't shoot the messenger!

[Kizzy]

Can I just leave this here? It's to counter the boring It's new they didn't know'! Trope.... They very much DID know.

rn55z95L1h8

[Livia]

How funny is it that people who hate the Tories come up with all the "they knew all along..." bunkum? Politicising a national emergency is dumb.

[user104658]

Meh. Obviously I'm no Tory but :shrug: I don't see the dishonesty on this one. They didn't lockdown earlier because, no matter how hard we wish, hope and pray otherwise, no matter how many times Arista insists we'll be on lockdown until 2029, the simple fact is that lockdown is functionally voluntary and extremely finite.

They didn't lock down earlier because the earlier they locked down, the earlier in the curve people would have started to give up on it.

Did they mistime it? Who knows, maybe, but the logic was sound. The lockdown is starting to disintegrate already, if we had locked down two weeks earlier, it would have been collapsing two weeks ago - at peak deaths.

Now... would earlier lockdown have meant earlier and lower peak? Maybe, that's possible, but it's also possible that it wouldn't have and we would have had increasing numbers breaking it before it had any effect at all.

In short; the idea that we could and should have locked down earlier hinges on the idea that we can lock down indefinitely when in terms of social psychology it was always obvious, and now becoming increasingly evident, that that just isn't the case.

[Livia]

That's fair enough, TS. The fact for some people is that the Tories would be damned if they did and damned if they didn't. I'd just like to see the criticism saved for the post match analysis.

[user104658]

That's fair enough, TS. The fact for some people is that the Tories would be damned if they did and damned if they didn't. I'd just like to see the criticism saved for the post match analysis.

I agree with that, there's a lot of overly-confident talk about what was and wasn't done right, which country had the right idea, who-dun-it-best... when to continue your metaphor, we're just finishing up the second game of the first set, in a 5-set Wimbledon final that's going to stretch on into the evening.

There are so many variables that are going to play into what was right, we won't know until someone properly crunches the numbers - the initial Covid deaths, the effect of lockdown, the knock-on non-covid health effects, the longer term effect of the economic damage... and that's data we're not going to have for several years.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion of course, to say "Hmm I'm not so sure about this?" but the concrete "THIS was right, THIS was wrong, they should have done THIS" is all very premature and like I said over-confident.

There's no evidence base for this. It doesn't exist, this has never happened before. On the plus side... ? ... there will be one next time :umm2:.

[smudgie]

Some people that are moaning about the lockdown being delayed will be the same ones now moaning for it to be lifted.

[Cherie]

Some people that are moaning about the lockdown being delayed will be the same ones now moaning for it to be lifted.

:clap1: and most of them don't appear to even bother with the daily briefings just get their news from the Sun/Mail etc

[Liam-]

So let me get this straight, during a national emergency, where we saw what was happening to other countries around the world due to the virus, our governments early strategy was to let as many people catch the virus as possible before they chose to do anything, just to see if an unproven theory would be correct, tens of thousands of people have now died, many more possibly than what they’re actually telling us, but the government shouldn’t be criticised or be held to account? Not quite sure that’s how this democracy thing works tbh

They’re only now just discussing closing the airports from the worst hit countries, like come on, how is that in anyway not negligent and downright idiotic?

[user104658]

Some people that are moaning about the lockdown being delayed will be the same ones now moaning for it to be lifted.

The mainstream press right now :joker:. They're managing to do both at the same time, which is quite impressive really.

[user104658]

So let me get this straight, during a national emergency, where we saw what was happening to other countries around the world due to the virus, our governments early strategy was to let as many people catch the virus as possible before they chose to do anything, just to see if an unproven theory would be correct, tens of thousands of people have now died, many more possibly than what they’re actually telling us, but the government shouldn’t be criticised or be held to account? Not quite sure that’s how this democracy thing works tbh

They’re only now just discussing closing the airports from the worst hit countries, like come on, how is that in anyway not negligent and downright idiotic?

Like I said you can share an opinion that you think they've taken the wrong path etc. but you can't fully hold them to account before there's an outcome to hold them to account for... we still have no idea what this all looks like long-term. You're making concrete assertions based on no data (there is no data!) which is pointless.

[Liam-]

Surely the amount of people that have died is a good place to start holding them to account?
Or are we going down the ‘well, they don’t really count cause the majority of them would have died anyway so :shrug:’ routine that seems to come with every ‘leave the government alone!’ defence everywhere lately

[Livia]

So let me get this straight, during a national emergency, where we saw what was happening to other countries around the world due to the virus, our governments early strategy was to let as many people catch the virus as possible before they chose to do anything, just to see if an unproven theory would be correct, tens of thousands of people have now died, many more possibly than what they’re actually telling us, but the government shouldn’t be criticised or be held to account? Not quite sure that’s how this democracy thing works tbh

They’re only now just discussing closing the airports from the worst hit countries, like come on, how is that in anyway not negligent and downright idiotic?

Longest sentence of the week award.

[Livia]

Surely the amount of people that have died is a good place to start holding them to account?
Or are we going down the ‘well, they don’t really count cause the majority of them would have died anyway so :shrug:’ routine that seems to come with every ‘leave the government alone!’ defence everywhere lately

Labour would have done much the same as the Tories if they'd got in at the last election. Except we'd have Diane Abbott, as Home Secretary, handling the logistics. Now that would be something to see...

[Liam-]

Longest sentence of the week award.

Labour would have done much the same as the Tories if they'd got in at the last election. Except we'd have Diane Abbott, as Home Secretary, handling the logistics. Now that would be something to see...

So rather than try and defend a point, you divert to attack grammar and pose hypotheticals nobody knows the answers to, good job

[Livia]

So rather than try and defend a point, you divert to attack grammar and pose hypotheticals nobody knows the answers to, good job

Whereas you will blindly follow your party regardless of what they're up to.

This whole bloody thread is built on hypotheticals.

[user104658]

Surely the amount of people that have died is a good place to start holding them to account?

Only if the number of deaths massively - and proportionately to population size and density - outweighs deaths elsewhere at the end of the crisis. Since - and I know we all wish this was not true - we're barely in the beginning phases of the total toll of Covid-19 there's absolutely no way we can assess the overall damage or how it stacks up in comparison to other approaches. We're trying to compare nations right now when we have no idea what the eventual outcome is going to be, and comparing it based on ongoing data is utterly meaningless. For example, if a country that managed to completely nip the covid-19 infection in the bud this month suffers a complete economic collapse in a year's time as a result, and a more measured approach could have mitigated that, then a "as few immediate deaths as possible at all costs" approach will have been absolutely the wrong approach. Thus, comparing current death figures? Utterly pointless, one-dimensional "pop" outrage in a situation that's going to involve a decade or more of layer upon layer of complexity.

We're already seeing cancer patients slipping through the net and countless other unforeseen complications... we're less than two months in. We have no idea what this looks like in 6 months. "Not good" is probably an understated estimation.

[Liam-]

Whereas you will blindly follow your party regardless of what they're up to.

This whole bloody thread is built on hypotheticals.

Will I? That’s a very bold statement to make, I don’t even belong to a party so

[Kizzy]

How funny is it that people who hate the Tories come up with all the "they knew all along..." bunkum? Politicising a national emergency is dumb.

Anyone can state the obvious Livia. ..it's not an exclusive club.

[Kizzy]

I agree with that, there's a lot of overly-confident talk about what was and wasn't done right, which country had the right idea, who-dun-it-best... when to continue your metaphor, we're just finishing up the second game of the first set, in a 5-set Wimbledon final that's going to stretch on into the evening.

There are so many variables that are going to play into what was right, we won't know until someone properly crunches the numbers - the initial Covid deaths, the effect of lockdown, the knock-on non-covid health effects, the longer term effect of the economic damage... and that's data we're not going to have for several years.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion of course, to say "Hmm I'm not so sure about this?" but the concrete "THIS was right, THIS was wrong, they should have done THIS" is all very premature and like I said over-confident.

There's no evidence base for this. It doesn't exist, this has never happened before. On the plus side... ? ... there will be one next time :umm2:.

It's reactions like this that show you didn't even glance at the Whitty lecture I posted, which in 2018 laid out pretty much to the letter what would happen, how our services would be stretched, the need for adequate amounts of PPE, the spread, lockdown, isolation.

Can I respectfully say to anyone mocking the posts of others to not do so from a position of ignorance? I left that information to remove the suggestion that my comments simply come from a place of governmental mistrust with no basis....that lecture is the basis.

[user104658]

[/B]

It's reactions like this that show you didn't even glance at the Whitty lecture I posted, which in 2018 laid out pretty much to the letter what would happen, how our serviced would be stretched, the need for adequate amounts of PPE, the spread, lockdown, isolation.



Can I respectfully say to anyone mocking the posts of others to not do so from a position of ignorance? I left that information to remove the suggestion that my comments simply come from a place of governmental mistrust with no basis....that lecture is the basis.This has nothing to do with what I was talking about? I was pointing out that there is no evidence base for the absolute best practice during a modern global pandemic, because this is the first modern global pandemic. There literally can't be an evidence base... Where would it have come from? There are theories, plenty of them, and I won't argue that the failure to adequately prepare healthcare services with adequate capacity and equipment lies squarely on the governments (plural, right back to Blair, let's face it)...

But I'm talking about people's certainty that the timing of lockdown was wrong. That the current figures serve as "proof". They don't... There's no way to know which approach was right until analysts can reflect on the bigger picture once all's said and done,and it'll be years until we reach that point.

For now people can say they don't THINK the government made the right moves and explain why, but it's far from evident or obvious.

For example as I've repeatedly said, I think the collateral damage done to public health by a lockdown going on for too long would be devastating and worse than the damage done by Covid itself. I don't "know" that, I just worry that it might be the case. Time will tell, but not for quite a while, so it's too early to be confidently stating what was right or wrong.

[Kizzy]

This has nothing to do with what I was talking about? I was pointing out that there is no evidence base for the absolute best practice during a modern global pandemic, because this is the first modern global pandemic. There literally can't be an evidence base... Where would it have come from? There are theories, plenty of them, and I won't argue that the failure to adequately prepare healthcare services with adequate capacity and equipment lies squarely on the governments (plural, right back to Blair, let's face it)...

But I'm talking about people's certainty that the timing of lockdown was wrong. That the current figures serve as "proof". They don't... There's no way to know which approach was right until analysts can reflect on the bigger picture once all's said and done,and it'll be years until we reach that point.

For now people can say they don't THINK the government made the right moves and explain why, but it's far from evident or obvious.

For example as I've repeatedly said, I think the collateral damage done to public health by a lockdown going on for too long would be devastating and worse than the damage done by Covid itself. I don't "know" that, I just worry that it might be the case. Time will tell, but not for quite a while, so it's too early to be confidently stating what was right or wrong.

Not sure why you are now fixated of 'evidence based' responses, there is a response. .. it's the response I posted, it may be a novel coronavirus however there is still best practice and contingency planning for a novel virus. It may not have happened before, that does not mean it has not been prepared and planned for at a local and national level.

Where we did not have 'absolute' best practice we had a well researched and documented script for resilience and preparedness in the UK. That was the point I was making.
There are those for whom this pandemic is the realisation of a life's work... All their labours are now being played out in real time.

So I'll play it your way, I don't know that they got it wrong but based on what we know, that the likes of Whitty, the WHO and many others were expecting and waiting for this eventuality across the globe.

A pandemic is easier to prepare and plan for I would say though than a public response to a lockdown, it is nigh on impossible to say how each individual nation will respond. I don't have as negative view of the British public than most it seems, which may surprise some...

I feel this is our time to shine, to show as I feel we are doing, that we can work together for the greater good...no matter how long or how deep we have been divided, so long as we are informed and supported.