Do you think the government has done a good job with Covid-19 (2)

[Withano]

Results from 12/04

Excellent: 3.57%
Good 14.29%
Ok 17.86%
Bad 42.86%
Terrible 21.43%

I said bad job last time, I’m changing my vote to terrible.

[Samm]

Considering we are going to have one of the worst death tolls in Europe. No

[MTVN]

Your last thread is here: https://www.thisisbigbrother.com/forums/showthread.php?t=366486

[Kazanne]

They are doing the best they can imo.so yes they are doing a good job.

[Withano]

Your last thread is here: https://www.thisisbigbrother.com/forums/showthread.php?t=366486

Thankssszzz

[Crimson Dynamo]

I'd be very interested in the judging criteria...

[Withano]

I'd be very interested in the judging criteria...

I went by deaths, health service aid, and response times

But some people voted good so they probs used different criteria

Use whatever criteria you want.

[Zizu]

Considering that every single government over the last 60 years has taken about 6 months to change even the slightest little thing I reckon they’ve done amazingly well


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[MB.]

I think you only have to look at the response of a country like Vietnam to understand some of the ways in which we've dropped the ball (and continue to do so)

[bots]

You can only blame the government for so much. Much is related to the dense population,. We must also take into account that our health service has managed to keep many people alive from other diseases creating a lot of vulnerable people, unlike other countries, and this means that we have a section of society that is much more likely to die when a virus like this comes along.

As i've also said before, lets judge after 2 years after weather patterns etc equalise around the world, and we can see what the picture is then

I am not saying that this government hasn't made mistakes, far from it, i just think that people should be clear on actual facts rather than speculating, and the facts will only come out after 2 or more years

[Denver]

People blaming them for deaths expecting them to save everyone is absurd

[Denver]

You have to blame the jobless chavvy benefit scum who wont do as they are told and attack people from police to supermarket workers ect, they are the reason we wont come out anytime soon

[MB.]

You have to blame the jobless chavvy benefit scum who wont do as they are told and attack people from police to supermarket workers ect, they are the reason we wont come out anytime soon

I'm sure "poor people are to blame" is precisely the narrative the government would like to emerge from this, yes

[Denver]

I'm sure "poor people are to blame" is precisely the narrative the government would like to emerge from this, yes

Career criminal are on job seekers for a reason not because they cant get a job

[DouglasS]

An okay job. They’re doing their best but it’s an impossible task. There will be many casualties regardless and people seem to forget that and act as if it’s simple. It’s unknown territory and every action people will criticise.

[The Slim Reaper]

They're doing their best...

1255575112352518144

[Denver]

They're doing their best...

1255575112352518144

Its seems you know of mystery cure that would stop people dying

[Denver]

Also to note The UK is highly populated for the size of the country so it's easier for the virus to run through it compared to other countries

[The Slim Reaper]

Its seems you know of mystery cure that would stop people dying

Yes, because that's exactly what i said.

I've pointed out the problems with the governments strategy (or lack thereof) from the start. Our carers still don't have the right equipment, we're not tracing and isolating nearly enough, despite claims that we have "the capacity" to test 100k per day.

The way we've handled this has been pretty appalling. Stick to reading the sun.

[Smithy]

People blaming them for deaths expecting them to save everyone is absurd

You have to blame the jobless chavvy benefit scum who wont do as they are told and attack people from police to supermarket workers ect, they are the reason we wont come out anytime soon

Then it is the GOVERNMENTS responsibility to impose stricter conditions, in Spain you’re not allowed out of your house for exercise, only for shopping, you would be fined otherwise, you are not allowed to go to work without special reasons, it is the government who should impose these restrictions, if people aren’t listening that’s because it isn’t being enforced properly

https://i.makeagif.com/media/2-19-2019/-vvPTu.gif

[Cherie]

Then it is the GOVERNMENTS responsibility to impose stricter conditions, in Spain you’re not allowed out of your house for exercise, only for shopping, you would be fined otherwise, you are not allowed to go to work without special reasons, it is the government who should impose these restrictions, if people aren’t listening that’s because it isn’t being enforced properly

https://i.makeagif.com/media/2-19-2019/-vvPTu.gif

In Spain people fear the Guardia Civil, no one fears the police here

In fact you see footage of people actively challenging them and spitting and coughing, I doubt anyone spat in the face of the Spanish police, and if they did they would be beaten to a pulp with no come backs, so you can't really compare the two

[Smithy]

In Spain people fear the Guardia Civil, no one fears the police here

In fact you see footage of people actively challenging them and spitting and coughing, I doubt anyone spat in the face of the Spanish police, and if they did they would be beaten to a pulp with no come backs, so you can't really compare the two

Are you implying that the majority of people flouting the rules in the UK would challenge the police?

You only need to see pictures of who is out and about to see it’s mostly family’s and students

[Cherie]

Are you implying that the majority of people flouting the rules in the UK would challenge the police?

You only need to see pictures of who is out and about to see it’s mostly family’s and students

I would imagine they would?

[Smithy]

I would imagine they would?

I think that’s a very unfair assumption to make

[Zizu]

Also to note The UK is highly populated for the size of the country so it's easier for the virus to run through it compared to other countries



That’s always been one of my concerns given we’re a tiny little isolated island absolutely crammed to the hilt with gawd knows how many people .. ( it’s far , far more than the official figures that’s for sure )


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[MTVN]

They're doing their best...

1255575112352518144

Two problems with this are that a) the 45000 is not yet a definite, its an extrapolation and b) it doesn't take into account that if you performed the same extrapolation for all other countries then it would also increase their death tolls drastically

[Saph]

OK

https://cdn.thisisbigbrother.com/customavatars/avatar37810_1450.gif

[Zizu]

In Spain people fear the Guardia Civil, no one fears the police here

In fact you see footage of people actively challenging them and spitting and coughing, I doubt anyone spat in the face of the Spanish police, and if they did they would be beaten to a pulp with no come backs, so you can't really compare the two


Yes that’s my take on things , pretty much .


Gawd knows what I’d do if I was a cop and some scroteball spat in my face ... as they do fairly regularly


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[Marsh.]

People blaming them for deaths expecting them to save everyone is absurd

Who expected everyone to be saved? Or have you just invented that?

[Beso]

Sick of the sight of that weasly looking bloke each night and his nasal tone.

I want that old women that is the expert to be pm after all this..unless Boris comes back soon at 5pm..

[Marsh.]

You have to blame the jobless chavvy benefit scum who wont do as they are told and attack people from police to supermarket workers ect, they are the reason we wont come out anytime soon

Laughable comment.

[Cherie]

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/coronavirus-uk-has-suffered-one-of-the-worlds-most-horrendous-outbreaks-world-health-organisation-official-says/ar-BB13nBIh?ocid=spartanntp

The UK has suffered one of the world's most horrendous outbreaks of coronavirus, a senior World Health Organisation (WHO) official has said.
Asked whether the UK would end up with the highest death rate in Europe, Dr Margaret Harris, said: "We won't really know who had the highest rates, what really went on, until after this is over and we can analyse it properly. Clearly you are having a horrendous outbreak and making a tremendous effort to care for everybody but at this stage it wouldn't be fair to make a judgement one way or another."




The fact that Italy, Spain, UK, France, and USA, Belgium and Germany have all been so badly affected so badly makes me wonder about the virus being man made :idc: I know its been disputed and sequenced etc in a lab but still.....

[Cherie]

Sick of the sight of that weasly looking bloke each night and his nasal tone.

I want that old women that is the expert to be pm after all this..unless Boris comes back soon at 5pm..

The Irish one?

[The Slim Reaper]

Two problems with this are that a) the 45000 is not yet a definite, its an extrapolation and b) it doesn't take into account that if you performed the same extrapolation for all other countries then it would also increase their death tolls drastically

The figures are from the ONS, but I accept the b part of the post.

[Beso]

The Irish one?

Her that looks like the quiet one....bet she ain't though.

[Cherie]

Her that looks like the quiet one....bet she ain't though.

You have lost me :laugh: Is that Alison McClean

[Denver]

Laughable comment.

So your claiming that incidents like this have not been happening?

[Marsh.]

So your claiming that incidents like this have not been happening?

Am I claiming that unemployed, lower class, benefit claiming people are not all the same and aren't as you describe? Yes.

Am I claiming that the people whose behaviour has been a problem aren't all unemployed or benefit claimants? Yes.

[Kizzy]

Also to note The UK is highly populated for the size of the country so it's easier for the virus to run through it compared to other countries

That is not true at all.

[Beso]

You have lost me :laugh: Is that Alison McClean

The one that does the graphs.

[Beso]

That is not true at all.

Correct..


I have a very important couple of stats that prove that.

Ive said it ages ago when the numbers were in the 20s..they are in the 250 region now.


So I luve in thurrock a very densely populated area of 170 thousand where towns just flow into the next one.....I come from the Scottish Borders, farming country..so the towns are spaced out and it only has a population of 120 thousand...



Thurrock has less covid 19 patients than the borders.only by about ten...but it's always been behind them.


Both are doing well I would say though.


Just to add...Thurrock is 30 miles from london at most...and I would say the borders is the same from Edinburgh. ..separated by hills though
...unlike the a13 down here

[Denver]

That is not true at all.

So you are saying the UK is the same size of France, USA, Germany, Spain ect?

[Kizzy]

In Spain people fear the Guardia Civil, no one fears the police here

In fact you see footage of people actively challenging them and spitting and coughing, I doubt anyone spat in the face of the Spanish police, and if they did they would be beaten to a pulp with no come backs, so you can't really compare the two

I don't think that is true tbf. I wouldn't think for a moment that theres any merit in advocating a militia type response over our methods for enforcing civil obedience either.

There are powers our police have now that aid them if there is an issue, I haven't seen many cases of assaults thankfully the threat of a long prison sentence is a better deterrent than a smack in the mouth. (Though my guess is they'll get both)

[Kizzy]

So you are saying the UK is the same size of France, USA, Germany, Spain ect?

That's not what you said you said the UK is highly populated for its size...it isn't.

[Beso]

Also to note The UK is highly populated for the size of the country so it's easier for the virus to run through it compared to other countries

Incorrect..:nono:


I have a very important couple of stats that prove that.

Ive said it ages ago when the numbers were in the 20s..they are in the 250 region now.


So I live in thurrock a very densely populated area of 170 thousand where towns just flow into the next one.....I come from the Scottish Borders, farming country..so the towns are spaced out and it only has a population of 120 thousand...



Thurrock has had less covid 19 patients than the borders.only by about ten...but it's always been behind them.


Both are doing well I would say though.


Just to add...Thurrock is 30 miles from london at most...and I would say the borders is the same from Edinburgh. ..separated by hills though
...unlike the a13 down here

[Zizu]

That is not true at all.



Care to offer some comparable countries ??

France, Spain and Italy look to be considerably larger than the uk yet we have the largest population by some distance I’d say .


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[Kizzy]

I put bad job as the response was slow, the appropriate advice was not followed by the government themselves leading to us becoming a rudderless state in a pandemic. There has been conflicting statements from ministers suggesting a cover up of misinformation and a poor procurement process for essential services to access adequate equipment.
I only didn't put terrible because nobody has been advised to inject disinfectant. ..yet.

[Denver]

That's not what you said you said the UK is highly populated for its size...it isn't.

You are forgetting we are a little island with very little land space with over 60m people all inhabited a virus will spread through this country quicker then it has Germany be they had the space to have the facilities and sanctions we didnt

[Kizzy]

Care to offer some comparable countries ??

France, Spain and Italy look to be considerably larger than the uk yet we have the largest population by some distance I’d say .


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No... I was commenting on the suggestion the UK is highly populated only, it isn't.

[Kizzy]

You are forgetting we are a little island with very little land space with over 60m people all inhabited a virus will spread through this country quicker then it has Germany be they had the space to have the facilities and sanctions we didnt

We have plenty of land space, the issue is areas of concentrated conurbation ... we need to spread out a bit.

[Crimson Dynamo]

They're doing their best...

1255575112352518144

You are quoting some random who is a "consultant,in sponsorship:"


Seriously?

[Marsh.]

We have plenty of land space, the issue is areas of concentrated conurbation ... we need to spread out a bit.

No! Leave what little green space we have left green. :nono:

[Kizzy]

No! Leave what little green space we have left green. :nono:

Little...There's masses! Is it fair that a few own so much land and the many occupy so little?

Look at what's happening now, we're dying because lord farquad needs his 600 acres for croquet :idc:

[Marsh.]

Little...There's masses! Is it fair that a few own so much land and the many occupy so little?

Look at what's happening now, we're dying because lord farquad needs his 600 acres for croquet :idc:

Croquet or not we'd suffer more with less green space. Mother Earth needs a break.

[Kizzy]

Croquet or not we'd suffer more with less green space. Mother Earth needs a break.

How about we spread out but have more inner city green spaces, how will mother earth like that?

[Smithy]

How about we spread out but have more inner city green spaces, how will mother earth like that?

Just got off the phone to her and she’s down for it

[arista]

"Then it is the GOVERNMENTS responsibility
to impose stricter conditions"

Yes Smithy

[The Slim Reaper]

You are quoting some random who is a "consultant,in sponsorship:"


Seriously?

Stats are from ONS.

he's a journalist

Seriously.

When you have nothing to add, question the source not the info.

[caprimint]

They couldn't have done any better

[DrunkerThanMoses]

Not really. I mean it’s a difficult response for any government so I do give them a bit of slack but at the same time compared to other countries their handling has been terrible. They had a time period where there was warnings and they did little to nothing to prepare the country for a outbreak. And like smithy said they needed to make restrictions more in place instead of blaming everyone else but themselves.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Stats are from ONS.

he's a journalist

Seriously.

When you have nothing to add, question the source not the info.

Your sources are always nobody's with huge hard left axes to grind

It's worth noting

[Livia]

The poll is pointless on a heavily Left leaning forum quite out of step with the rest of the country.

[user104658]

They're doing their best...

1255575112352518144

Where is 45k coming from, and how on earth do you use an unofficial/assumptive inflated figure (even if it's accurate) to make a percentage comparison to a global figure that's based on official reported figures. Just really dumb stuff, sorry.

[Nicky91]

You have to blame the jobless chavvy benefit scum who wont do as they are told and attack people from police to supermarket workers ect, they are the reason we wont come out anytime soon

pretty sure i can remember i had a ban once because of insulting people

really no need to call em that :shrug:

[Tom4784]

They've done a terrible job and if it wasn't for Rishi Sunak, we'd have been in a much worse position.

Boris was inattentive and didn't care, he skipped a lot of meetings about Corona and he's probably relieved as **** that he got it because now he gets sympathy when really, he should be getting criticised all over the place for his handling of the crisis.

If you want to see an example of a good response to this crisis, look no further than New Zealand. Jacinda Ardern is a prime example of what leaders should be doing.

[Denver]

pretty sure i can remember i had a ban once because of insulting people

really no need to call em that :shrug:

they are that if they feel the need to attack police or spit at supermarket staff and say they hope they get Rona and die they deserve it

[Cherie]

Not really. I mean it’s a difficult response for any government so I do give them a bit of slack but at the same time compared to other countries their handling has been terrible. They had a time period where there was warnings and they did little to nothing to prepare the country for a outbreak. And like smithy said they needed to make restrictions more in place instead of blaming everyone else but themselves.

if the thickos wont follow the current restrictions, what makes you think they will follow more rigid ones :shrug:

[Denver]

They've done a terrible job and if it wasn't for Rishi Sunak, we'd have been in a much worse position.

Boris was inattentive and didn't care, he skipped a lot of meetings about Corona and he's probably relieved as **** that he got it because now he gets sympathy when really, he should be getting criticised all over the place for his handling of the crisis.

If you want to see an example of a good response to this crisis, look no further than New Zealand. Jacinda Ardern is a prime example of what leaders should be doing.

New Zealand is a tiny country with fewer citizen and are not a rich country so its easier to lockdown and do whatever

[Denver]

I cant help but think if labour was in and did the same things people would be ****ting in their hands and clapping

[Tom4784]

Never forget that if Boris had his way, things would have carried on as normal and we'd be sacrificing the elderly and the vulnerable with the excuse of building 'herd immunity'.

[Nicky91]

they are that if they feel the need to attack police or spit at supermarket staff and say they hope they get Rona and die they deserve it

yes all that is unnecessary ok partially agree with you there, but really no one deserves to be insulted like that either, not even groups of people you dislike

[Withano]

The poll is pointless on a heavily Left leaning forum quite out of step with the rest of the country.

Would you let your political opinions infer with your honest feeling on something as huge as corona? Or you just being super baity like usual and implying that others have?

[Tom4784]

I cant help but think if labour was in and did the same things people would be ****ting in their hands and clapping

Perhaps you should stop complaining about hypothetical situations that will never happen and actually focus on the issues at hand.

I know you have a hardon for Boris but complaining about Labour ain't gonna change the fact that he ****ed up badly. Whataboutism is nothing but a distraction tactic for people with nothing to add.

[Denver]

Lives wouldnt have been saved either way its 50/50 if you catch it so there is no point saying labour would have stopped people dying when its impossible to stop people dying with a vaccine, the thing that is saving most people is how their immune system deals with it and of course the doctors are trying to help them but its not really something that can be stopped right now

[Denver]

Also ive seen many a people who claim Tories have ****ed up to then go and break lockdown rules so that makes their opinion immediately invalid

[Withano]

Can anybody who voted ‘good or excellent’ point out anything specifically good or excellent that they have done?

I feel like all those votes have just come alongside of angrily shouting that lefties don’t understand, instead of actual logical thinking so far

[The Slim Reaper]

Where is 45k coming from, and how on earth do you use an unofficial/assumptive inflated figure (even if it's accurate) to make a percentage comparison to a global figure that's based on official reported figures. Just really dumb stuff, sorry.

No need to apologise to me, I find a lot of the stuff you've posted on the subject has been really dumb stuff too, going back to your pro herd immunity stance at the start to the whining about even having a thread for it. It's all good, soldier.

[Denver]

Can anybody who voted ‘good or excellent’ point out anything specifically good or excellent that they have done?

I feel like all those votes have just come alongside of angrily shouting that lefties don’t understand, instead of actual logical thinking so far

Im guessing you will be benefiting from the furlough scheme

[Tom4784]

Lives wouldnt have been saved either way its 50/50 if you catch it so there is no point saying labour would have stopped people dying when its impossible to stop people dying with a vaccine, the thing that is saving most people is how their immune system deals with it and of course the doctors are trying to help them but its not really something that can be stopped right now

Adam, sweetie, you really need to hear this and hold it deep in your heart. Labour is not in power, they haven't been in power for ten years. You can't just keep trying to shield the government by pointing the finger at a party who will likely never get back into power. Deal with reality, the Tories have been in charge for the past 10 years, when will you start holding the government accountable?

You only have to look at countries like South Korea (which really recovered well from basically being hit with it right out of the gate) and New Zealand to see examples of how good government actions can help ease the crisis. Our government did the bare minimum and was fully prepared to let Corona cull the 'weak'. No amount of handwringing or whataboutism is going to change that.


Also ive seen many a people who claim Tories have ****ed up to then go and break lockdown rules so that makes their opinion immediately invalid

Yes, thank you for that dismissive highly suspicious anecdotal evidence, much appreciated.

[Kizzy]

The poll is pointless on a heavily Left leaning forum quite out of step with the rest of the country.

Just over a third of those who have responded have said the govt are doing ok or better, for a 'heavily left leaning' forum that's not bad.. how is this out of step with the GP as a whole?
What percentage would you say would bring that in line with the rest of the country?


Oh... look here.

'Two thirds of people think government imposed lockdown too late, poll suggests

The number of people who believe the government did not act quickly enough in dealing with the coronavirus outbreak is increasing, according to a poll.

Two thirds of adults think ministers brought in strict measures to deal with the emergency too late, a rise from 57% two weeks ago,*the*Ipsos Mori*survey (pdf)*found.'

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2020/apr/30/uk-coronavirus-live-boris-johnson-latest-updates?page=with:block-5eaabe168f0882b206dcff8f#block-5eaabe168f0882b206dcff8f

[Denver]

Adam, sweetie, you really need to hear this and hold it deep in your heart. Labour is not in power, they haven't been in power for ten years. You can't just keep trying to shield the government by pointing the finger at a party who will likely never get back into power. Deal with reality, the Tories have been in charge for the past 10 years, when will you start holding the government accountable?

You only have to look at countries like South Korea (which really recovered well from basically being hit with it right out of the gate) and New Zealand to see examples of how good government actions can help ease the crisis. Our government did the bare minimum and was fully prepared to let Corona cull the 'weak'. No amount of handwringing or whataboutism is going to change that.




Yes, thank you for that dismissive highly suspicious anecdotal evidence, much appreciated.

Because they are 2 countries that are the exact same size of the UK to compare to.

[Brother Leon]

How anyone can vote higher than “bad job” I don’t know. This government has truly been a disaster for the most part throughout this pandemic. The only positive they can possibly be proud of is their stimulus packages and even then they’ve still neglected some sections of people with it.

[Zizu]

They've done a terrible job and if it wasn't for Rishi Sunak, we'd have been in a much worse position.

Boris was inattentive and didn't care, he skipped a lot of meetings about Corona and he's probably relieved as **** that he got it because now he gets sympathy when really, he should be getting criticised all over the place for his handling of the crisis.

If you want to see an example of a good response to this crisis, look no further than New Zealand. Jacinda Ardern is a prime example of what leaders should be doing.



Weren’t New Zealand one of the last to get it though and learnt from everyone else’s mistakes plus they’re miles out on a limb and not crammed to the hilt like us ..

I bet they have stricter border control than we do .. their land mass looks similar to ours yet they have around half the number of people in London


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[Withano]

Im guessing you will be benefiting from the furlough scheme

I’m a key worker, but I dont see the relevance they have ****ed over the self-employed, Business owners, the unemployed, and those that work on commission. Barely qualifies for ‘good’ even ignoring about all the other factors

[Kizzy]

Lives wouldnt have been saved either way its 50/50 if you catch it so there is no point saying labour would have stopped people dying when its impossible to stop people dying with a vaccine, the thing that is saving most people is how their immune system deals with it and of course the doctors are trying to help them but its not really something that can be stopped right now
ok... who's said Labour would have stopped people dying...and what vaccine?

[user104658]

No need to apologise to me, I find a lot of the stuff you've posted on the subject has been really dumb stuff too, going back to your pro herd immunity stance at the start to the whining about even having a thread for it. It's all good, soldier.

No need to be petty, but for the sake of accuracy, I was never "Pro" herd immunity as a strategy I just think it's ultimately an inevitability after careful management of the initial surge. I think people's total reliance on waiting for an effective vaccine or treatment that may never materialise is a bit naive. I still think that but we'll see I guess? The only dumb part of the conversation I remember is when you claimed that herd immunity without vaccination "doesn't exist" :idc:.

I also didn't whine about there being a thread for it, I whined about 2S's relentless swamping of the thread with posts every 10 minutes and called it unhealthy (he later ended up leaving, stating that he wasn't coping. Shocker.) and I whined about Arista's daily death league table which is still as morbid and functionally useless as it ever was. In fact, far from moaning about there being a thread, I believe I asked for those league table posts to be split off into a separate thread so that this one would actually be useful.

Feel free to take your fear and frustration out on me though Slim, I can take it for a while. Stoic champ.

[Tom4784]

Because they are 2 countries that are the exact same size of the UK to compare to.

New Zealand as a land mass is comparable to ours, they are less populated but South Korea has a comparable population to ours. Both took decisive action early on and both have done well to combat the problem.

What is your next excuse for not criticising the government?

[Denver]

South Korea had the labs and the face mask culture before that helped we dont have testing labs in the dozens that we can use

[Tom4784]

Weren’t New Zealand one of the last to get it though and learnt from everyone else’s mistakes plus they’re miles out on a limb and not crammed to the hilt like us ..

I bet they have stricter border control than we do .. their land mass looks similar to ours yet they have around half the number of people in London


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

The governments of the world knew how bad it would be long before it got as bad as it did. The UKand the US in particular knew but did nothing. You can't really say that the governments were caught unaware when they had advanced warnings in January and February.

[Tom4784]

South Korea had the labs and the face mask culture before that helped we dont have testing labs in the dozens that we can use

So, South Korea's government were more prepared for an outbreak then our own government? Thank you, I agree that our government was woefully underprepared.

[Denver]

Didnt WHO keep changing their minds about how bad it was and leading governments on with their false facts and protection of China

[Denver]

So, South Korea's government were more prepared for an outbreak then our own government? Thank you, I agree that our government was woefully underprepared.

Do you know why South Korea was prepared? because of SARS which didnt effect us but hugley effected them

[user104658]

There is emerging, albeit anecdotal, data from SK that suggests their success is partly down to some fairly draconian and punitive practices and harsh authoritarian control measures so - as with all of the other lauding of countries with strict controls and aggressive policing - let's please just not. When all is said and done, you would rather have Covid than a fear-state with a declining economy. Really.

[The Slim Reaper]

No need to be petty, but for the sake of accuracy, I was never "Pro" herd immunity as a strategy I just think it's ultimately an inevitability after careful management of the initial surge. I think people's total reliance on waiting for an effective vaccine or treatment that may never materialise is a bit naive. I still think that but we'll see I guess? The only dumb part of the conversation I remember is when you claimed that herd immunity without vaccination "doesn't exist" :idc:.

I also didn't whine about there being a thread for it, I whined about 2S's relentless swamping of the thread with posts every 10 minutes and called it unhealthy (he later ended up leaving, stating that he wasn't coping. Shocker.) and I whined about Arista's daily death league table which is still as morbid and functionally useless as it ever was.

Feel free to take your fear and frustration out on me though Slim, I can take it for a while. Stoic champ.


Keep those shoulders broad and strong, young Wallace.

I wouldn't underestimate your own role in TS needing time off either.

[Denver]

There is emerging, albeit anecdotal, data from SK that suggests their success is partly down to some fairly draconian and punitive practices and harsh authoritarian control measures so - as with all of the other lauding of countries with strict controls and aggressive policing - let's please just not. When all is said and done, you would rather have Covid than a fear-state with a declining economy. Really.

The people complaining would cry like a baby if they were in Korea and China where you would be arrested or even shot for leaving the house

[Denver]

Didnt South Korea force most of their young males into voluntary service and lined the streets with the Army?

[Cherie]

Slim v TS, not as good as cherie v kizzy but it's a great distraction :laugh:

[The Slim Reaper]

Slim v TS, not as good as cherie v kizzy but it's a great distraction :laugh:

So modest.

[Cherie]

So modest.

I have my moments of modesty, the time is not now :fist:

[user104658]

The people complaining would cry like a baby if they were in Korea and China where you would be arrested or even shot for leaving the houseTo be fair it is important to draw the distinction between NK (shot) and SK (a modern society) but the risk is in believing that just because SK isn't NK, it's infallible. They've (anecdotally) been using some unpalatable surveillance and control tactics and openly publishing people's confidential medical details to anyone who wants to see them.

We're at risk of "baby out with the bathwater" stuff here I think. People happily accepting unthinkable breaches of privacy and freedoms in pursuit of a "no holds barred" solution.

One that floodgate is opened you can never really close it and I genuinely sometimes wonder what sort of world we're going to wake up to once the Covid question is answered.

[user104658]

Slim v TS, not as good as cherie v kizzy but it's a great distraction [emoji23]It's not happening Cherie, I think we'd both end up banned. You'll have to find some other fantasy to harden your nips :hmph:

[Cherie]

It's not happening Cherie, I think we'd both end up banned. You'll have to find some other fantasy to harden your nips :hmph:

:bawling:

[user104658]

:bawling:Marsh is arguing with Oliver about blackface in another thread, that should tide you over.

Actually I can't in good conscience recommend that thread... it is a dumpster fire.

[Tom4784]

Do you know why South Korea was prepared? because of SARS which didnt effect us but hugley effected them

So we in the past few decades alone have seen various diseases come and go and none of the governments, including this one were truly prepared for a pandemic?

Is that really an excuse? Seems like incompetence to me. Perhaps you should put down your allegiances for a second and just see the situation for what it is, not re-interpreting it to cast Boris as the hero.

[Niamh.]

Slim v TS, not as good as cherie v kizzy but it's a great distraction :laugh:

and I thought when TS first joined that maybe he was Slim in disguise because they were so similar :hehe:

[Denver]

So we in the past few decades alone have seen various diseases come and go and none of the governments, including this one were truly prepared for a pandemic?

Is that really an excuse? Seems like incompetence to me. Perhaps you should put down your allegiances for a second and just see the situation for what it is, not re-interpreting it to cast Boris as the hero.

\You tell me one disease this century that has hit the UK like this?

[Tom4784]

Didnt South Korea force most of their young males into voluntary service and lined the streets with the Army?

You know what would be easier on you than all this defensive flailing? Accepting the simple truth that your beloved Tories are not perfect and that, outside of Sunak's handling of the Stimulus packages, the government majorly **** the bed on this one.

When you're trying to undermine countries that have handled the crisis relatively well to defend a government that has not, you just got to take a breather and take the blinkers off for a second.

[Denver]

You know what would be easier on you than all this defensive flailing? Accepting the simple truth that your beloved Tories are not perfect and that, outside of Sunak's handling of the Stimulus packages, the government majorly **** the bed on this one.

When you're trying to undermine countries that have handled the crisis relatively well to defend a government that has not, you just got to take a breather and take the blinkers off for a second.

South Korea threaten men with jail if they dont join the army so maybe learn your facts before trying to throw them away as false

[Cherie]

and I thought when TS first joined that maybe he was Slim in disguise because they were so similar :hehe:

same :laugh:

[arista]

How anyone can vote higher than “bad job” I don’t know. This government has truly been a disaster for the most part throughout this pandemic. The only positive they can possibly be proud of is their stimulus packages and even then they’ve still neglected some sections of people with it.


Yes watch Live 5PM
Johnson PM
I do hope the Press push him hard

[Tom4784]

\You tell me one disease this century that has hit the UK like this?

Moving the goalposts, are we? As expected.

We've seen a bunch of viral threats in my lifetime alone. Swine Flu, Foot and Mouth, Bird Flu, SARS, Ebola etc.

Do you honestly think a government has done a good job if they don't think 'hmm, other countries have been hit hard by viral outbreaks over the years, maybe we should be prepared just in case?' Pretty much all the governments that have been in power since I've been alive have failed in this regard but I'm guessing you'd only defend the blue governments.

The Government had advanced warnings about how bad it was going to be, they chose not to be prepared, they chose not to take preventative action, they originally chose pure inaction before the outrage corrected their course.

You can plug your ears and hold your eyes shut but the truth of the matter, for the most part, our government ****ed up.

[Tom4784]

South Korea threaten men with jail if they dont join the army so maybe learn your facts before trying to throw them away as false

Many countries have forms of National Service, I don't agree with it but it has absolutely nothing to do with Corona you you're still flailing and doing exactly what I said you were doing.

Try thinking, not as a drone, but for yourself, for once.

[Denver]

Moving the goalposts, are we? As expected.

We've seen a bunch of viral threats in my lifetime alone. Swine Flu, Foot and Mouth, Bird Flu, SARS, Ebola etc.

Do you honestly think a government has done a good job if they don't think 'hmm, other countries have been hit hard by viral outbreaks over the years, maybe we should be prepared just in case?' Pretty much all the governments that have been in power since I've been alive have failed in this regard but I'm guessing you'd only defend the blue governments.

The Government had advanced warnings about how bad it was going to be, they chose not to be prepared, they chose not to take preventative action, they originally chose pure inaction before the outrage corrected their course.

You can plug your ears and hold your eyes shut but the truth of the matter, for the most part, our government ****ed up.

Swine Flu was inefective
Sars didnt have any deaths and no only cases so stop claiming it was a major virus swiping through the UK
Ebola had very few cases in the UK

so there you go claiming they were major UK problems when you should be infect researching the stuff you say

[Tom4784]

Swine Flu was inefective
Sars didnt have any deaths and no only cases so stop claiming it was a major virus swiping through the UK
Ebola had very few cases in the UK

so there you go claiming they were major UK problems when you should be infect researching the stuff you say

Adam, you need to read what I actually wrote and not what you imagined I wrote.

Tell me, point out exactly were I said that SARS was a major virus that swept through the UK. Go on, I will wait.

My advice to you would be to read posts twice, once is obviously not enough for you to understand what I'm saying.

[Denver]

But didnt most of those things happen in a labour government? But it's the tories faulttestong labs wasnt built

[Tom4784]

My whole point is that it's dumb for any government to be unprepared for a viral outbreak, Bill Gates, in the wake of Ebola, took a stance that every government should be prepared for this kind of situation and they didn't listen, they didn't learn from the woes of other countries and the UK remained unresponsive when our government could have done more to prepare.

[Denver]

We could have afforded testing labs of we didnt squander tens of millions of invading countries for fun

[user104658]

So we in the past few decades alone have seen various diseases come and go and none of the governments, including this one were truly prepared for a pandemic?

.

See I don't disagree with this, but then it's not a Tory thing. It is a small-t tory thing, in the sense that its a neoliberal capitalist thing, where since Thatcher pretty much everything has been overlooked in favour of City of London and economic gain so government has been far too distracted to think about "stuff like this", but that applied to Blair-Brown Labour tories just as much as Tory tories.

It's also way beyond the scope of just the UK.

So is there blame? Yes there's an absolute tonne of historic blame, there are no real excuses for governments, politics and economies having gone this way but that was the case long before Covid. No excuse for corporatism, political cronyism, all of it.

However if you just accept that as "what is", because really what else can you do, it comes down to assessing the government on what's happened since late January. Have they done a stellar job, best in the world? No there are plenty of crap moves and errors. Could they be worse? You only have to glance across the Atlantic to say "ohhh yes, apparently so". They could have done nothing at all and let it swamp the NHS, that hadn't happened. They could have turtled up to protect the economy at all costs, that hasn't happened.

Thus the only option for how they've handled this is "OK". It's not good. It could clearly be worse. We hope lessons will have been learned, but we know they probably won't have been.

[Kizzy]

Listen...I'll take all you bitchez on, and win :)

[Tom4784]

But didnt most of those things happen in a labour government? But it's the tories faulttestong labs wasnt built

Adam, I don't know how to make this more clear and simple to understand.

The Tories have been in power for a decade now, do you know what a decade is? Ten whole years. You can't keep blaming old governments forever when a decade of potential change and action has gone by under the Tories. A good government learns from the past, the world has seen a bunch of outbreaks over the years and our governments, both Labour and Tory have failed to prepare for a pandemic. If Labour was in charge, I'd say the same. The government has ****ed up, Ebola should have been a wakeup call to be prepared but they weren't, they should have been doing more when they heard how bad things were going to get back in January/February but they did not.

Adam, this isn't about Tories or Labour, this is about our government not doing what they should have been doing. Aside from the Stimulus packages, they ****ed up hard.

[Cherie]

Keeping capacity in the NHS has been a success?

The Furlough scheme in the main, obviously there are gaps, but in a country this size are you really going to get everyone?

Ventilators haven't run out

The cash thrown at Imperial and Oxford to find a vaccine which would be a huge boost to the economy if they find one

The Nightengales

The protection of the shielded and the huge effort to ensure they have food boxes which you hear nothing about at all :suspect:

Schools kept open for key worker families and the vulnerable






The bad from me has been PPE disaster, non testing at airports, and herd immunity, but then Sweden are trialling that and no one is complaining that their Government are ****ers :laugh: Testing as well but that is finally kicking in, oh and asking people to take responsibility for self isolating after returning from an infected country, just didn't happen

[Denver]

Also all of this **** about building test labs, we are running out of land to keep building we cant just keep destroying places to make buildings

[Zizu]

Yes watch Live 5PM

Johnson PM

I do hope the Press push him hard



Why ??

Two weeks or so out of intensive care .. he should he recuperating at home .. especially being a new father ..

They had a female triathlon on the LBCa few days ago and she was in a similar state as Boris and she said it took her 6 WEEKS to get back to feeling ok again


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Liam-]

How anyone can vote higher than “bad job” I don’t know. This government has truly been a disaster for the most part throughout this pandemic. The only positive they can possibly be proud of is their stimulus packages and even then they’ve still neglected some sections of people with it.

.

Let’s not forget that before lockdown they purposely downgraded the virus so that they wouldn’t have to adhere to the stricter ppe measures that would have been in place.

The simple fact that flights from infected countries are still allowed to come in should be pissing more people off than it is, but then again #BackBoris

[Kizzy]

One of the biggest failures that has gone under the radar a little is under staffing, we built field hospitals which is great but who have we got to work in them.
Removing the bursary led to a drop in uptake in nursing degrees, the reduction of immigration for low paid workers has added to that shortfall. Now we have shiny new hospitals and no nurses.. Where's the backlash?

[Denver]

One of the biggest failures that has gone under the radar a little is under staffing, we built field hospitals which is great but who have we got to work in them.
Removing the bursary led to a drop in uptake in nursing degrees, the reduction of immigration for low paid workers has added to that shortfall. Now we have shiny new hospitals and no nurses.. Where's the backlash?

They gave all students in their final year a pass and asked people to come out of retirement I'm not sure what else could have been done

[Denver]

.

Let’s not forget that before lockdown they purposely downgraded the virus so that they wouldn’t have to adhere to the stricter ppe measures that would have been in place.

The simple fact that flights from infected countries are still allowed to come in should be pissing more people off than it is, but then again #BackBoris

The Scientists downgraded it and Boris acted on what he was told so that blame lays with scientists not the government

[user104658]

.





The simple fact that flights from infected countries are still allowed to come in should be pissing more people off than it is, but then again #BackBoris

Only if you're living in early March? I don't know why people haven't realised that having a few thousand people fly in from other infected countries, of whom maybe a few dozen might be infected, makes absolutely no difference in the UK where there are likely already millions of infections. Like literally zero difference. People are complaining about flights coming in from "infected places" like we aren't one of the infected places! The passengers are statistically less likely to have the virus than your next door neighbour.

People have taken guidance from months ago when we had few cases and were still trying to track n trace and are applying it to a country that is in the middle of an active pandemic.

Tl;Dr... For now, it doesn't matter if a few plane passengers are carrying Covid.

[Kizzy]

.

Let’s not forget that before lockdown they purposely downgraded the virus so that they wouldn’t have to adhere to the stricter ppe measures that would have been in place.

The simple fact that flights from infected countries are still allowed to come in should be pissing more people off than it is, but then again #BackBoris

To be fair if they are British citizens we have a duty to repatriate them. Anyone who has come back from anywhere should have been quarantined though. They brought my nephew back from tenerife about 4 weeks ago, I was shocked he went straight back to work!

[Denver]

The thing I disagree with the most is not making people self isolate on arriving back in the country as in the earlier stages it could have helped a lot

[user104658]

One of the biggest failures that has gone under the radar a little is under staffing, we built field hospitals which is great but who have we got to work in them.
Removing the bursary led to a drop in uptake in nursing degrees, the reduction of immigration for low paid workers has added to that shortfall. Now we have shiny new hospitals and no nurses.. Where's the backlash?I agree with you there Kizzy (a miracle!) - the total failure to address NHS understaffing that's been going on (and getting worse!) for years now is a huge problem, and very much an austerity/Tory problem. And they've tried to solve it by throwing volunteers and students at the problem as though that's a viable alternative to having a full roster of properly trained staff.

[Denver]

I'm also not sure they should make nurses go to Uni? I know they never use to

[Kizzy]

Only if you're living in early March? I don't know why people haven't realised that having a few thousand people fly in from other infected countries, of whom maybe a few dozen might be infected, makes absolutely no difference in the UK where there are likely already millions of infections. Like literally zero difference. People are complaining about flights coming in from "infected places" like we aren't one of the infected places! The passengers are statistically less likely to have the virus than your next door neighbour.

People have taken guidance from months ago when we had few cases and were still trying to track n trace and are applying it to a country that is in the middle of an active pandemic.

Tl;Dr... For now, it doesn't matter if a few plane passengers are carrying Covid.
A few dozen on a plane could infect the whole plane, so that is full planes arriving unaware they are infected. I still say that regardless of the current infection rate for their own safety and that of the vulnerable they might come into contact with isolation for 7 days is beneficial.

[Kizzy]

I agree with you there Kizzy (a miracle!) - the total failure to address NHS understaffing that's been going on (and getting worse!) for years now is a huge problem, and very much an austerity/Tory problem. And they've tried to solve it by throwing volunteers and students at the problem as though that's a viable alternative to having a full roster of properly trained staff.

It's not a mirace I talk a lot of sense ..the probability was you would agree with me at some point.

[user104658]

A few dozen on a plane could infect the whole plane, so that is full planes arriving unaware they are infected. I still say that regardless of the current infection rate for their own safety and that of the vulnerable they might come into contact with isolation for 7 days is beneficial.I still think this thinking is based on the idea that someone coming in on a plane is more likely to be a carrier than the average Brit... Which just isn't true at this point. If anything we should ban OUTGOING flights to protect others from US.

[Kizzy]

I'm also not sure they should make nurses go to Uni? I know they never use to

Well ..That's got s grain of truth to it too, it is vocational and I've heard it's not as clinically based as it should be... My sister still reminds me when it's enrollment, she's disappointed I didn't follow her. Haha!

[Kizzy]

I still think this thinking is based on the idea that someone coming in on a plane is more likely to be a carrier than the average Brit... Which just isn't true at this point. If anything we should ban OUTGOING flights to protect others from US.

Ive just explained what my thinking is based on, I can't speak for everyone though, I'll let you do that.

[Nicky91]

quite a lot of governments messed up from the beginning here

but who are doing good jobs now for me personally are: Italy (with added help from Russia and Cuba they made the spread slow down, numbers decrease now) Germany (Merkel is a very stable leader especially worth a mention how she handles this crisis), France (Macron also shows to be quite stable as leader, no nonsense going for safety over economy which is how it should in every country around the world)

Belgium (who even do not have a real government, their interim government handled properly opting quite fast for total lockdown)


Austria, Denmark going quickly for lockdowns, especially denmark who had events without audiences even sooner

Czech Republic, who first in lockdown, now closed their border too (but giving permission for sports like recreational tennis/golf with social distancing measures)

Russia, Putin is a very stable leader, kept his country out of covid problems for long time, only got worse when someone got back from holiday but despite that also keeping things more or less under control


my own country, i don't like Van Dissel's approach, i prefer Hugo de Jonge here more from RIVM to give us advice, i like our virologist Ab Osterhaus who also has seen it very clear based upon research on covid, Rutte as PM, hmm he does stay calm in a crisis, yesterday he got mad (ok rightfully mad since people were going out on Streets and stores in masses again which isn't good to slow down the spread)

[Kizzy]

They gave all students in their final year a pass and asked people to come out of retirement I'm not sure what else could have been done

:joker::joker::joker:

[Crimson Dynamo]

quite a lot of governments messed up from the beginning here

but who are doing good jobs now for me personally are: Italy (with added help from Russia and Cuba they made the spread slow down, numbers decrease now) Germany (Merkel is a very stable leader especially worth a mention how she handles this crisis), France (Macron also shows to be quite stable as leader, no nonsense going for safety over economy which is how it should in every country around the world)

Belgium (who even do not have a real government, their interim government handled properly opting quite fast for total lockdown)


Austria, Denmark going quickly for lockdowns, especially denmark who had events without audiences even sooner

Czech Republic, who first in lockdown, now closed their border too (but giving permission for sports like recreational tennis/golf with social distancing measures)

Russia, Putin is a very stable leader, kept his country out of covid problems for long time, only got worse when someone got back from holiday but despite that also keeping things more or less under control


my own country, i don't like Van Dissel's approach, i prefer Hugo de Jonge here more from RIVM to give us advice, i like our virologist Ab Osterhaus who also has seen it very clear based upon research on covid, Rutte as PM, hmm he does stay calm in a crisis, yesterday he got mad (ok rightfully mad since people were going out on Streets and stores in masses again which isn't good to slow down the spread)

Yes Putin has had an excellent pandemic

[Denver]

:joker::joker::joker:

Just to be clear I'm on about during the pandemic and not since they have been in charge, because I've never agreed with punishing the NHS to save money

[Denver]

quite a lot of governments messed up from the beginning here

but who are doing good jobs now for me personally are: Italy (with added help from Russia and Cuba they made the spread slow down, numbers decrease now) Germany (Merkel is a very stable leader especially worth a mention how she handles this crisis), France (Macron also shows to be quite stable as leader, no nonsense going for safety over economy which is how it should in every country around the world)

Belgium (who even do not have a real government, their interim government handled properly opting quite fast for total lockdown)


Austria, Denmark going quickly for lockdowns, especially denmark who had events without audiences even sooner

Czech Republic, who first in lockdown, now closed their border too (but giving permission for sports like recreational tennis/golf with social distancing measures)

Russia, Putin is a very stable leader, kept his country out of covid problems for long time, only got worse when someone got back from holiday but despite that also keeping things more or less under control


my own country, i don't like Van Dissel's approach, i prefer Hugo de Jonge here more from RIVM to give us advice, i like our virologist Ab Osterhaus who also has seen it very clear based upon research on covid, Rutte as PM, hmm he does stay calm in a crisis, yesterday he got mad (ok rightfully mad since people were going out on Streets and stores in masses again which isn't good to slow down the spread)

The same Russia that is in the same group of China,Iran and NK by hiding the true number to make their countries look better?

[Samm]

They gave all students in their final year a pass and asked people to come out of retirement I'm not sure what else could have been done

Student nurses aren’t being paid for the work they do however, even if it’s their passion and they enjoy doing it. They should be paid.

[Denver]

Student nurses aren’t being paid for the work they do however, even if it’s their passion and they enjoy doing it. They should be paid.

I didnt see this bit? I though they walked straight into a paid job but yes I dont agree with not paying them

[Nicky91]

The same Russia that is in the same group of China,Iran and NK by hiding the true number to make their countries look better?

Russia who closed that border with China, (and Mongolia who did so the same also their border closed with China)

''hiding true numbers'' well then none of number statistics are truthful since we all have more deaths than it being shown, but if you do not test enough, or don't give attention to care homes you'll never know immediately how many deaths you actually got

[Denver]

Russia who closed that border with China, (and Mongolia who did so the same also their border closed with China)

''hiding true numbers'' well then none of number statistics are truthful since we all have more deaths than it being shown, but if you do not test enough, or don't give attention to care homes you'll never know immediately how many deaths you actually got

It's a known fact some countries are not putting Rona has the cause of death to drive numbers down

[Samm]

I didnt see this bit? I though they walked straight into a paid job but yes I dont agree with not paying them

They get money from a placement, however it’s not the same as a paid nurse job. Labour MPs are promising a plan to wipe their student debt which I think would be a good gratitude

[Kizzy]

Just to be clear I'm on about during the pandemic and not since they have been in charge, because I've never agreed with punishing the NHS to save money

They have put the patients and staff at risk by taking this route.... can't you see that?

Student nurses have limited clinical experience this is a big ask to forgo a whole year of important education that is designed to prepare them for the role in general, not a pandemic.
Retirees are in the most vulnerable group, it's obvious why they are at risk.

This should never have been suggested, if they weren't spread paper thin initially this 'solution' wouldn't have been see as the only option.

[The Slim Reaper]

1255763137351094272

[Kizzy]

I don't know how boris will face other world leaders knowing he put our doctors, nurses and care workers in bin bags ...then body bags.

[Cherie]

1255763137351094272

PPE has ben a shambles, I wonder where SK get theirs from, once this is done countries need to start manufacturing their own, relying on others does not work in a crises

[Zizu]

PPE has ben a shambles, I wonder where SK get theirs from, once this is done countries need to start manufacturing their own, relying on others does not work in a crises



Manufacturing has to be a priority for us after this is all over ..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Kizzy]

There was a brilliant response from UK businesses, our govt didn't want to know.

[Cherie]

There was a brilliant response from UK businesses, our govt didn't want to know.

which businesses? and I wonder about the scale, its not a time to get rid of your huge scale suppliers given the amount required.

I recall Matt Hancock saying they had been contacted by some businesses which had set up the day before!

If they did turn down genuine offers it should be investigated for sure

[Kizzy]

which businesses? and I wonder about the scale, its not a time to get rid of your huge scale suppliers given the amount required.

I recall Matt Hancock saying they had been contacted by some businesses which had set up the day before!

If they did turn down genuine offers it should be investigated for sure

Well of course he's going to play it down isn't he? I didn't think for a second he'd admit to any procurement failings.
There were many reports of local businesses offering to support local hospitals. On a larger scale business had taken orders from other countries before receiving any response from our own govt.

How odd there was an old reply to a post when I tried to quote you then :/

[Livia]

A global pandemic leading to a global shortage of PPE. It's hard to understand...…..

Just like the global crash that Labour claimed was responsible for them emptying the treasury last time they were in.

[Crimson Dynamo]

It's the same as if the world was thrown into new ice age. Posters would be tweeting pictures showing how wellcanada and Siberia are doing and criticising the UK for not having thousands of snowploughs in London.

Lol

[Kizzy]

A global pandemic leading to a global shortage of PPE. It's hard to understand...…..

Just like the global crash that Labour claimed was responsible for them emptying the treasury last time they were in.

:joker: :joker: :joker:

You just can't help yourself can you?

This has all been addressed over the many pages liv, you might want to keep up. We've been through the crash of 08, the pandemic of 09 and the GE of 10....

The issue of resilience and preparedness, contingency planning and stockpiling has also been discussed at length, I can reiterate for you if you like? I don't mind.

[Kizzy]

It's the same as if the world was thrown into new ice age. Posters would be tweeting pictures showing how wellcanada and Siberia are doing and criticising the UK for not having thousands of snowploughs in London.

Lol

And there would be those making nonsensical analogies too.

[Zizu]

100,000 targets apparently achieved.


The guy was right to be confident after all !!


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[Kizzy]

100,000 targets apparently achieved.


The guy was right to be confident after all !!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Which guy and which target...There's been a few.

[The Slim Reaper]

100,000 targets apparently achieved.


The guy was right to be confident after all !!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

You need to source that. They were 67k short yesterday or the day before. They continually say they have the capacity for 100k, but we're nowhere near testing that number.

[Cherie]

You need to source that. They were 67k short yesterday or the day before. They continually say they have the capacity for 100k, but we're nowhere near testing that number.

They were at 81k on 29/04 source ...the briefing

[Kizzy]

They were at 81k on 29/04 source ...the briefing

So they underestimated by a 5th, remember that figure was rounded down from Johnsons 250,000 too.

[Cherie]

So they underestimated by a 5th, remember that figure was rounded down from Johnsons 250,000 too.

the deadline was yesterday so they have to add in the figures of those tested yesterday.

[Zizu]

You need to source that. They were 67k short yesterday or the day before. They continually say they have the capacity for 100k, but we're nowhere near testing that number.



I’ve seen reports that 100,000 was reached... I did say ‘apparently’ in my post ..


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[Zizu]

Which guy and which target...There's been a few.



Are you being deliberately obtuse ?


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[Kizzy]

Are you being deliberately obtuse ?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

No, are you being deliberately provocative? Johnson or Hancock? 100,000 or 250,000?

[Kizzy]

the deadline was yesterday so they have to add in the figures of those tested yesterday.

Have you seen any indications we may hit the target, given that the number for the amount of people actually tested is almost half that at 54,000?
As you see its not a target of 100,000 people but tests, you can achieve this by testing the same people multiple times. That doesn't help those needing or wanting that initial test. At just over 54k that number is woeful.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/coronavirus-covid-19-information-for-the-public

[bots]

The government is likely to meet or "come close" to its target of 100,000 daily UK coronavirus tests, Communities Secretary Robert Jenrick has said.

Health Secretary Matt Hancock said the government would achieve the aim by the end of April - which was Thursday - and those figures are expected later.

Just over 81,000 tests across the UK took place on Wednesday, but ministers said there was capacity for more.

It comes as the PM said the UK was now "past the peak" of the outbreak.

Mr Jenrick told BBC Breakfast: "I don't have the figures yet, they'll be published later today... but it looks like we'll either meet the target or come close."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52496227

[Kizzy]

The government is likely to meet or "come close" to its target of 100,000 daily UK coronavirus tests, Communities Secretary Robert Jenrick has said.

Health Secretary Matt Hancock said the government would achieve the aim by the end of April - which was Thursday - and those figures are expected later.

Just over 81,000 tests across the UK took place on Wednesday, but ministers said there was capacity for more.

It comes as the PM said the UK was now "past the peak" of the outbreak.

Mr Jenrick told BBC Breakfast: "I don't have the figures yet, they'll be published later today... but it looks like we'll either meet the target or come close."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52496227

Should they hit it there have still only been 54.5 k tested... how is that seen as a positive?

This is the issue the focus is on the wrong thing, the approach shouldn't be on 'targets' that's a business based approach. . This is not business it's people.

The 'target' should there need to be one should be 100, 000 people tested not 100,000 tests. I'm sure that's what the majority of people were expecting when the target was announced tbh.

[Withano]

This thread just serves as proof that people can be blinded by their political persuasion.

The best defences so far have been ‘best they can’ and ‘labour are also bad’. And even with them sharing this, they still believe they’ve done a good job. This is your best defence lol to tens of thousands of deaths, deadly delays, and our healthcare being funded by a lone-100-year old citizen.

**** me put the daily mail down.

[The Slim Reaper]

This thread just serves as proof that people can be blinded by their political persuasion.

The best defences so far have been ‘best they can’ and ‘labour are also bad’. And even with them sharing this, they still believe they’ve done a good job. This is your best defence lol to tens of thousands of deaths, deadly delays, and our healthcare being funded by a lone-100-year old citizen.

**** me put the daily mail down.

If 100k being murdered by austerity wasn't enough to satisfy the bloodlust of the tories and their supporters, what makes you think a few more thousand will scratch their itch?

[Denver]

Have you seen any indications we may hit the target, given that the number for the amount of people actually tested is almost half that at 54,000?
As you see its not a target of 100,000 people but tests, you can achieve this by testing the same people multiple times. That doesn't help those needing or wanting that initial test. At just over 54k that number is woeful.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/coronavirus-covid-19-information-for-the-public

They can have the tests available but they cant force people to take them and some people have been reluctant to do so

[The Slim Reaper]

1256239001448693765

[The Slim Reaper]

They can have the tests available but they cant force people to take them and some people have been reluctant to do so

People have been screaming for tests, especially care workers, so the claim that people just don't want to take them is obviously wide of the mark.

[Denver]

The test are available to all workers out there so there is a reason they are not taking them

[Cherie]

1256239001448693765

if people have asked for the home test, they have to assume they will test themselves, I assume like the ones going to the test centres with no symptoms, a lot of the home tests are being snapped up by people who have no symptoms so they can use them at a later date

[Zizu]

No, are you being deliberately provocative? Johnson or Hancock? 100,000 or 250,000?



I DID state the target number of 100,000 in my original post

Clear as day to everyone else ...


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[The Slim Reaper]

if people have asked for the home test, they have to assume they will test themselves, I assume like the ones going to the test centres with no symptoms, a lot of the home tests are being snapped up by people who have no symptoms so they can use them at a later date

Counting those tests sent out as tests that have been done though is pretty misleading. We don't work the census from the gov forms that are sent out.

[Denver]

Wasnt it the ability to do 100k a day and not actually doing 100k a day the target

[Zizu]

Have you seen any indications we may hit the target, given that the number for the amount of people actually tested is almost half that at 54,000?
As you see its not a target of 100,000 people but tests, you can achieve this by testing the same people multiple times. That doesn't help those needing or wanting that initial test. At just over 54k that number is woeful.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/coronavirus-covid-19-information-for-the-public



They apparently’ tested over 81,000 people on Wednesday so I’ve no idea where your figures are coming from ..

It’s almost as though you want the government to fail ... can’t be because you’re a labour supporter surely ?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[The Slim Reaper]

Wasnt it the ability to do 100k a day and not actually doing 100k a day the target

No.

[The Slim Reaper]

They apparently’ tested over 81,000 people on Wednesday so I’ve no idea where your figures are coming from ..

It’s almost as though you want the government to fail ... can’t be because you’re a labour supporter surely ?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

They didn't, gov figures show they tested 54k. Watch the twitter clip I posted a few posts ago as to how that's been explained.

[Zizu]

Wasnt it the ability to do 100k a day and not actually doing 100k a day the target



That was always my take on things ..

You can only set a target on something that you can measure ... ie the the number of tests made AVAILABLE to the public .

How can they be expected to predict a figure of how many tests WILL be done or how many people will even come forward for a test on any given day ..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Zizu]

The thing I disagree with the most is not making people self isolate on arriving back in the country as in the earlier stages it could have helped a lot



Yes I agree ... everyone makes mistakes though , presumably they will learn from any mistakes made


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[The Slim Reaper]

That was always my take on things ..

You can only set a target on something that you can measure ... ie the the number of tests made AVAILABLE to the public .

How can they be expected to predict a figure of how many tests WILL be done or how many people will even come forward for a test on any given day ..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Because that's he best way of attacking the virus head on, in conjunction with tracing contacts and isolation.

Why would it be impossible for the number of tests carried out to be measured?

[Zizu]

Student nurses aren’t being paid for the work they do however, even if it’s their passion and they enjoy doing it. They should be paid.



Any source to confirm that point ?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Zizu]

There was a brilliant response from UK businesses, our govt didn't want to know.



Can we possibly keep political bias out of this thread ??

It’s just not helpful


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[The Slim Reaper]

Can we possibly keep political bias out of this thread ??

It’s just not helpful


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Just remind us what the thread title says...

[Zizu]

Should they hit it there have still only been 54.5 k tested... how is that seen as a positive?



This is the issue the focus is on the wrong thing, the approach shouldn't be on 'targets' that's a business based approach. . This is not business it's people.



The 'target' should there need to be one should be 100, 000 people tested not 100,000 tests. I'm sure that's what the majority of people were expecting when the target was announced tbh.



It’s impossible to have a target for tested people .. ..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[The Slim Reaper]

It’s impossible to have a target for tested people .. ..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

It's not, and why on earth would you think it is?

[Zizu]

Just remind us what the thread title says...



Well it presumably assumes that we will all be behave like grown ups and not make it into a ridiculous political tennis match


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[Denver]

People are still complaining despite us testing more the SK ever have and most other countries

[Cherie]

Counting those tests sent out as tests that have been done though is pretty misleading. We don't work the census from the gov forms that are sent out.

true enough

[Zizu]

It's not, and why on earth would you think it is?



How can the government possibly know how many people will want / be available for the test / be able to get to a test site / how many are too poorly to even go for a test etc etc on any given day .

You can only set a target for specifics.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[The Slim Reaper]

Well it presumably assumes that we will all be behave like grown ups and not make it into a ridiculous political tennis match


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Who is acting childish? Name names.

[The Slim Reaper]

How can the government possibly know how many people will want / be available for the test / be able to get to a test site / how many are too poorly to even go for a test etc etc on any given day .

You can only set a target for specifics.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

All of these can be measured and are already measured through many different areas of life. You're making it sound as though data collection is on par with time travel.

[Zizu]

Right ... I refuse to get involved in any more ridiculous disagreements with Labour supporters it’s just pointless.

I have no political affiliations




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[The Slim Reaper]

Right ... I refuse to get involved in any more ridiculous disagreements with Labour supporters it’s just pointless.

I have no political affiliations




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

What arguments? You've asked questions, I've answered and asked my own. What does labour support have to do with anything?

[Denver]

122,347 tests were done yesterday

[The Slim Reaper]

Wasnt it the ability to do 100k a day and not actually doing 100k a day the target

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EW8YsO4XkAEMp8c?format=jpg&name=medium

[Zizu]

122,347 tests were done yesterday


That’s such great news ..for most people ..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Denver]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EW8YsO4XkAEMp8c?format=jpg&name=medium

At least they proved all the doubters wrong

[Zizu]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EW8YsO4XkAEMp8c?format=jpg&name=medium



Are you really going to continue to bleat on about this great achievement ?

Over 120,000 tests DONE yesterday alone ..



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[reece(:]

The gov have been shocking, but NHS, key and care workers have done tremendously.

[The Slim Reaper]

Are you really going to continue to bleat on about this great achievement ?

Over 120,000 tests DONE yesterday alone ..



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

That pic was to just address Adams query about whether the tests were supposed to be based on capacity or reality.

If they've genuinely hit their target then fair play to them, and hopefully we can get our arses moving as we're way down on the list for tests as things stand.

I need to see the data though, as their previous claim turned out to be 54k. Especially as they may have changed the rules to reach the target.

[The Slim Reaper]

At least they proved all the doubters wrong

It's about doing the best for everyone in the country, not trying to prove people wrong. Peoples lives are at risk, my guy.

[The Slim Reaper]

Posting for the article.

1256216619803643904

[MTVN]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EW8YsO4XkAEMp8c?format=jpg&name=medium

I've seen people retweeting that a lot but think it might have been a semantic error from whoever wrote it. This was tweeted two days earlier

1256223480623874052

And the BBC article at the time also talks about tests not people: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52140376

[MTVN]

Hancocks original announcement

1256258275529633800

[Kizzy]

They can have the tests available but they cant force people to take them and some people have been reluctant to do so

Are you avin a bubble?

[Kizzy]

They apparently’ tested over 81,000 people on Wednesday so I’ve no idea where your figures are coming from ..

It’s almost as though you want the government to fail ... can’t be because you’re a labour supporter surely ?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
There's a link in the post that shows exactly where they are from.... the government. Stop attempting to politicise the issue.

[Zizu]

There's a link in the post that shows exactly where they are from.... the government. Stop attempting to politicise the issue.



The irony ...


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[Kizzy]

The irony ...


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Where's the irony?... show me one post ive made with a political slant.

[Zizu]

Where's the irony?... show me one post ive made with a political slant.



Oh my lord .. . you’re soooo funny !

( at times)


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[bots]

Where's the irony?... show me one post ive made with a political slant.

:joker:

[user104658]

Where's the irony?... show me one post ive made with a political slant.I actually can't tell if you're joking or not Kizzy :umm2:

[Brother Leon]

1256491591079952384

1256508272770715649


But, but... 100,000 tests.

[Cherie]

1256491591079952384

1256508272770715649


But, but... 100,000 tests.

122,000 tests including 27,000 home tests, so approx 93,000 tests complete would you be congratulating the hard work if they got to 101,000, they are human beings carrying out all the work you know, it’s not carried out by magic :skull: you know fallible human beings like yourself who make mistakes ..

[Liam-]

1256491591079952384

1256508272770715649


But, but... 100,000 tests.

They’ll be counted, as well as the ones they have to resend, even more fudged numbers for them to get themselves of to, shameful

[The Slim Reaper]

Anecdotal issues with actually getting tested

1256513550731837440

[The Slim Reaper]

When even the mail stop buying the tory BS...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EW_bbXNXQAA2oNo?format=jpg&name=medium

[Tom4784]

122,000 tests including 27,000 home tests, so approx 93,000 tests complete would you be congratulating the hard work if they got to 101,000, they are human beings carrying out all the work you know, it’s not carried out by magic :skull: you know fallible human beings like yourself who make mistakes ..

You should never make excuses for any governments that lie, even the ones you happen to support. Hold them accountable, don't try to sweep inconvenient truths under the carpet.

the 100k figure is dodgy and if they are lying about that, what else are they lying about?

[Kizzy]

Ok I'll rephrase for those who are having a dig. I have been critical of the current governments response... where I haven't politicised the issue is suggesting any other party could or would have done better....

Where I got my information was questioned, it was a .gov website.
I was accused of wanting the government to fail because I'm a labour supporter, I don't.
To suggest that is akin to saying I'm happy about the current level of deaths due to the poor initial response to the virus, and I am not!

[The Slim Reaper]

Dont forget, Boris decided his end of year holiday wasn't enough for a new pm, so he took half of February off for another holiday, with the virus already rampaging across Europe and well on it's way here.

[Cherie]

You should never make excuses for any governments that lie, even the ones you happen to support. Hold them accountable, don't try to sweep inconvenient truths under the carpet.

the 100k figure is dodgy and if they are lying about that, what else are they lying about?

I dont know, im sure you have a long list

Btw I have never voted Tory but I have Labour including our current useless London Mayor, I am supporting the current governments efforts to get on top of the crisis yes, unlike you who are willing them to fail

Btw did you sort out the distance errors in your shop...shameful if you havent addressed it

[Kizzy]

I dont know, im sure you have a long list

Btw I have never voted Tory but I have Labour including our current useless London Mayor, I am supporting the current governments efforts to get on top of the crisis yes, unlike you who are willing them to fail

Btw did you sort out the distance errors in your shop...shameful if you havent addressed it

Another unnecessary comment... are you aware what you are suggesting here? I've been accused of this too, that there is some joy in the failings we've experienced in the country due to the slow response and PPE issues. And worse are hoping for worse.

Can you understand how insulting that is? This goes beyond politicising the issue it's downright offensive.

[Withano]

, unlike you who are willing them to fail

Nobody is willing them to fail. What a cruel and unusual thing to say.

But, they are failing. It is not helpful to be blind to this because tens of thousands of people are dying. I’m guessing there’s tens of thousands of people yet to come.

People claiming their efforts are good or excellent as it stands are the ones who are truly (unintentionally) willing the country to fail if anything.

Demand more from your government.

[Zizu]

They’ll be counted, as well as the ones they have to resend, even more fudged numbers for them to get themselves of to, shameful



Wow ... such paranoia

How do you sleep at night !?


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[Zizu]

Nobody is willing them to fail. What a cruel and unusual thing to say.



But, they are failing. It is not helpful to be blind to this because tens of thousands of people are dying. I’m guessing there’s tens of thousands of people yet to come.



People claiming their efforts are good or excellent as it stands are the ones who are truly (unintentionally) willing the country to fail if anything.



Demand more from your government.



Thousands are dying across the world so are all governments failing?

We are fairly unique I’d say ... 70 million crammed into a relatively small landmass !!


I see people comparing our death count unfavourable with flamin New Zealand yet although we both share roughly the same landmass they have under 5 million population !


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[Withano]

Thousands are dying across the world so are all governments failing?

We are fairly unique I’d say ... 70 million crammed into a relatively small landmass !!


I see people comparing our death count unfavourable with flamin New Zealand yet although we both share roughly the same landmass they have under 5 million population !


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Several governments across the world has done poorly in protecting their citizens. Yes? Would you disagree?

[Zizu]

Several governments across the world has done poorly in protecting their citizens. Yes? Would you disagree?



Name them ...


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[Tom4784]

I dont know, im sure you have a long list

Btw I have never voted Tory but I have Labour including our current useless London Mayor, I am supporting the current governments efforts to get on top of the crisis yes, unlike you who are willing them to fail

Btw did you sort out the distance errors in your shop...shameful if you havent addressed it

What a load of ****. I'm not willing anything to fail, you just cannot handle criticism of the government. Governments should be held accountable for their actions, if you disagree with that then you'd probably love living in China or North Korea but I for one believe in freedom. If you see that as me willing the government to fail in the middle of a crisis then that is a catastrophic failure on your part to understand what I'm saying. Do better.

Nice attempt at baiting there at the end, stay pressed and obsessed and remember your basic reading comprehension, it'll help you differentiate between wanting to hold a government accountable to it's lies and hoping it fails xx.

[Beso]

Considering this is Britain, and the way Britain is today..the government has done exceptionally well on keeping the population under control and the army off the streets.

[Withano]

Several governments across the world has done poorly in protecting their citizens. Yes? Would you disagree?

It’s terrifying that there could have been 200k+ less worldwide deaths if governments acted promptly, but this doesn’t matter to some. All efforts were still excellent in some people’s eyes. Terrifying.

If nobody had your attitude, there would be far less deaths because the government would have to listen to the people.

Unfortunately, they are right in knowing they can literally get away with murder.

[Zizu]

It’s terrifying that there could have been 200k+ less worldwide deaths if governments acted promptly, but this doesn’t matter to some. All efforts were still excellent in some people’s eyes. Terrifying.



If nobody had your attitude, there would be far less deaths because the government would have to listen to the people.



Unfortunately, they are right in knowing they can literally get away with murder.



You know that you’re agreeing with yourself there ?


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[Cherie]

What a load of ****. I'm not willing anything to fail, you just cannot handle criticism of the government. Governments should be held accountable for their actions, if you disagree with that then you'd probably love living in China or North Korea but I for one believe in freedom. If you see that as me willing the government to fail in the middle of a crisis then that is a catastrophic failure on your part to understand what I'm saying. Do better.

Nice attempt at baiting there at the end, stay pressed and obsessed and remember your basic reading comprehension, it'll help you differentiate between wanting to hold a government accountable to it's lies and hoping it fails xx.

So i take it by your failure to respond you never bothered to protect your customers by moving the stickers 2m apart, a simple enough task, yet the government is not doing a good enough job for you, got it

A reminder of what you said

No, it just encourages people to defy the lockdown for pointless ****, social distancing will not be observed because it isn't being observed now. Most shops I go (including my own work place) into have those distancing stickers everywhere but most of them aren't even spaced a meter apart, never mind two.

[Beso]

You know that you’re agreeing with yourself there ?


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And he expects the government to cope with a world wide pandemic fit enough for his eyes.

[Tom4784]

[/B]

So i take it by your failure to respond you never bothered to protect your customers by moving the stickers 2m apart, a simple enough task, yet the government is not doing a good enough job for you, got it

A reminder of what you said

No, it just encourages people to defy the lockdown for pointless ****, social distancing will not be observed because it isn't being observed now. Most shops I go (including my own work place) into have those distancing stickers everywhere but most of them aren't even spaced a meter apart, never mind two.

Cherie, why do you think it's acceptable to bring up my life like that? If I said the same thing to you, you would have blown up so practice some self awareness and know that this is not the path to go down.

Honestly, you're being very ****ing creepy. You is a TV show, not a how-to manual.

[Beso]

Dezzy..you openly brought your life onto the forum when you plugged your book.

So it's fair for Cherie to simply ask you about your work environment during such difficult times...no?

[Tom4784]

Dezzy..you openly brought your life onto the forum when you plugged your book.

So it's fair for Cherie to simply ask you about your work environment during such difficult times...no?

Not when her friends used that information to harass me outside of the forum, no.

I get the feeling that she's trying to fish for more details about my work and I won't oblige.

You guys don't understand this but I'm entitled to a life outside of this forum. You and yours' need to follow my lead, I'd never pull that **** on any of you, don't feel justified in bringing my personal life into **** it doesn't belong in.

[Cherie]

Cherie, why do you think it's acceptable to bring up my life like that? If I said the same thing to you, you would have blown up so practice some self awareness and know that this is not the path to go down.

Honestly, you're being very ****ing creepy. You is a TV show, not a how-to manual.

Lol you posted on the forum ...you know nothing about me...if I had posted what you did on the forum I would say its fair game..

It’s not creepy to quote something you posted so don’t bother trying to move the goalposts and intimate that :laugh: you haven’t bothered to protect your customers, its someone else’s responsibility .. probably the government ...we get it

[Tom4784]

Lol you posted on the forum ...you know nothing about me...if I had posted what you did on the forum I would say its fair game..

It’s not creepy to quote something you posted so don’t bother trying to move the goalposts and intimate that :laugh: you haven’t bothered to protect your customers, its someone else’s responsibility .. probably the government ...we get it

You just don't get it, do you? You lack empathy, Cherie.

[Cherie]

Not when her friends used that information to harass me outside of the forum, no.

I get the feeling that she's trying to fish for more details about my work and I won't oblige.

You guys don't understand this but I'm entitled to a life outside of this forum. You and yours' need to follow my lead, I'd never pull that **** on any of you, don't feel justified in bringing my personal life into **** it doesn't belong in.

Lol I have no need or desire to fish for information,, I’m just gifted with a half decent memory, you said yourself you sign off peoples holidays so you are management and even if you weren’t in the current climate most people would bring an error in distancing to management attention.... ...don’t drag me into your book review thing..nothing to do with me mate as well you know...:hee:

[Cherie]

Dezzy..you openly brought your life onto the forum when you plugged your book.

So it's fair for Cherie to simply ask you about your work environment during such difficult times...no?

Cheers Parm... xx

[Cherie]

You just don't get it, do you? You lack empathy, Cherie.

My friends would not agree :laugh:

[Beso]

Not when her friends used that information to harass me outside of the forum, no.

I get the feeling that she's trying to fish for more details about my work and I won't oblige.

You guys don't understand this but I'm entitled to a life outside of this forum. You and yours' need to follow my lead, I'd never pull that **** on any of you, don't feel justified in bringing my personal life into **** it doesn't belong in.



But you brought your life onto the forum via your book, what happened after that has sod all to do with Cherie.

You are taking your anger that's built up from that incident out on Cherie and that's very unfair cause she is simply asking you a question about another side of your life..you ain't prince harry son..you can't pick and chose!

[Tom4784]

My life is not up for debate, end of.

[Beso]

My life is not up for debate, end of.



Unless there's profit to be made.:hehe:


Stop cluthing your pearls.Cherie asked a simple question that merely whiffed the smell of your life