Superdrug now taking part in FEMALE ERASURE

[Crimson Dynamo]

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2020/09/04/13/32775900-8697841-image-m-19_1599223042723.jpg
https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2020/09/04/13/32775884-8697841-image-m-20_1599223052592.jpg


'Wait until JK Rowling hears about this!': Shoppers ridicule 'woke' Superdrug
after it launches sanitary products for 'people who menstruate' because the
word woman ‘is not inclusive enough’


Customers slammed the £3.99 Luna brand for saying 'people who menstruate'
One Tweeter said online that it would make a great present for her father
Others criticised Superdrug for 'playing games' with gender identity on labels


https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2020/09/04/13/29319702-8697841-The_Harry_Potter_author_opened_up_after_facing_a_b arrage_of_crit-a-37_1599223633233.jpg


full details in link below



https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8697841/Shoppers-ridicule-woke-Superdrug-launches-sanitary-products-people-menstruate.html

[Shaun]

I really don't get why it's so hard to understand that trans men sometimes still menstruate, and do not wish to be identified as women.

[Fetch The Bolt Cutters]

I really don’t get why people get upset/annoyed over stuff like this

[Smithy]

There’s people starving all round the world and snowflakes get upset about stuff like this?

[Crimson Dynamo]

top comment from the article:

That is highly insulting to women

[Cherie]

If they have transitioned they won’t be menstruating so this is pointless, if they have to use female products while transitioning so be it, they won’t be female forever, I don’t get why some men get so annoyed about an issue that affects women born as women

[UserSince2005]

If they have transitioned they won’t be menstruating so this is pointless, if they have to use female products while transitioning so be it, they won’t be female forever, I don’t get why some men get so annoyed about an issue that affects women born as women

Its not that simple. Just because you identify as a man doesn't necessary mean that you want to have the operation to change sex.
You can have the gender of a male and still menstruate.

[Cherie]

Its not that simple. Just because you identify as a man doesn't necessary mean that you want to have the operation to change sex.
You can have the gender of a male and still menstruate.

Why does the product have to bow to that persons wishes? Are we not all equal allegedly...

[Shaun]

Why does the product have to bow to that persons wishes? Are we not all equal allegedly...

Probably because they're the consumer making the purchase :unsure:

[Liam-]

Why does the product have to bow to that persons wishes? Are we not all equal allegedly...

Yet you seem quite happy to alienate a section of people, is that equal?

[Crimson Dynamo]

how many people are we talking about here

roughly?

[bots]

i think it's inappropriate for men to comment on this particular issue as it is not something that affects them.

[Liam-]

Also I’m pretty sure, if you asked pre-op trans women, I’d imagine writing on the back of a box would be the last thing on their minds

[Cherie]

Probably because they're the consumer making the purchase :unsure:

Eh Im a consumer as well?

[Cherie]

Yet you seem quite happy to alienate a section of people, is that equal?

Not at all the product can be produced with both words .....hows that for equality

For women

For people who menstruate

Everyones happy

[Shaun]

i think it's inappropriate for men to comment on this particular issue as it is not something that affects them.

Delete the thread then LT, we're not allowed to say anything

[Liam-]

Not at all the product can be produced with both words .....hows that for equality

For women

For people who menstruate

Everyones happy

Does ‘people who menstruate’ not cover all basis? What’s wrong with inclusivity?

[Liam-]

I can’t help but find it funny that a large chunk of the women offended by something like this, would probably also be the type of people offended by ‘fathers day’ because it doesn’t include single mothers

[AnnieK]

I'm a bit torn by this......"for people who mensutruate" is fine as far as I'm concerned but in all honesty why does it need any kind of descriptor like that on it? Its a sanitary product and only useful for one thing.

[Crimson Dynamo]

I'm a bit torn by this......"for people who mensutruate" is fine as far as I'm concerned but in all honesty why does it need any kind of descriptor like that on it? Its a sanitary product and only useful for one thing.

I got a whole load of pads in with several boxes of odds i bought at an auction and i used them for packing parcels as they were good for fragile items.

Someone left me neutral feedback with the comment "sanitary pads should not be used as void fill"

:oh:

[Saph]

this is truly disgusting i shall be writing to the ceo of superdrug to have these removed from the shelves!!

[Saph]

im talking about the £1.99 clunky mascara they do btw not this

[Cherie]

I can’t help but find it funny that a large chunk of the women offended by something like this, would probably also be the type of people offended by ‘fathers day’ because it doesn’t include single mothers

:umm2:

[Cherie]

Does ‘people who menstruate’ not cover all basis? What’s wrong with inclusivity?

Why cut out women, the person who menstruates no longer wants to be one!

[Cherie]

10 years ago, maybe :smug:

:worry: will they rebrand Tena lady...Tena person

[UserSince2005]

i think it's inappropriate for men to comment on this particular issue as it is not something that affects them.

Yeah like white people should ignore BLM

[Liam-]

Why cut out women, the person who menstruates no longer wants to be one!

Women aren’t being cut out, the term includes women and people who identify as something else, but still menstruate

[Cherie]

Women aren’t being cut out, the term includes women and people who identify as something else, but still menstruate

Don’t tell me how I should feel Mr Man

[Ammi]

...they are for people who menstruate...I mean, being progressive and inclusive etc is a good and positive thing...I’ve seen lots of positive stuff on Twitter with this, which is encouraging...:lovedup:...it often seems to be the DM ‘pushing issues’ ...and trying to make them a thing’...

[Crimson Dynamo]

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/superdrug-new-sanitary-pads-people-menstruate-a4540671.html

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/superdrug-mocked-launching-sanitary-products-22630029

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/lifestyle/health/range-of-sanitary-products-for-people-who-menstruate-amid-jk-rowling-gender-debate/04/09/

[Liam-]

Don’t tell me how I should feel Mr Man

That’s Mr. Person with a penis to you!

[Oliver_W]

What's the point in changing things like that, only women can menstrate :shrug: women who identify as men often still menstrate, and men who identify as men obviously don't.

[user104658]

"If they said women it would alienate trans men!!!"

"Saying people who mentruate instead of women is gender erasure!!!!"

WOW so stuck, such problem, what do? Impossible to please everyone I just can't think of...

Oh wait you could just leave that entire ****ing paragraph off the back of the box and it would make absolutely no difference to the product, and no one would care, at all.

They put it there because they knew it would generate free advertising. Pff.

https://i.imgur.com/OPIlwzi.png

https://media.giphy.com/media/ToMjGpnXBTw7vnokxhu/giphy.gif

[Marsh.]

Yet you seem quite happy to alienate a section of people, is that equal?

Also I’m pretty sure, if you asked pre-op trans women, I’d imagine writing on the back of a box would be the last thing on their minds

So, is it trivial or is it alienation?

This is, kind of, my problem with the debate. Women are told to stop getting offended or for caring too much about trivial matters like "words on a box" whilst simultaneously being told that trivial matters like "words on a box" are alienating trans people. :shrug: So, effectively, trans people can take issue with words they find degrading or erasing, but cis women can't. It's a double standard.

[Kizzy]

Why are condoms called male condoms?

You don't have to be male to use one.

It just seems to me there is some kind of drive to have 'women' taken off everything.

[Liam-]

So, is it trivial or is it alienation?

This is, kind of, my problem with the debate. Women are told to stop getting offended or for caring too much about trivial matters like "words on a box" whilst simultaneously being told that trivial matters like "words on a box" are alienating trans people. :shrug: So, effectively, trans people can take issue with words they find degrading or erasing, but cis women can't. It's a double standard.

Well not really, my point was nobody is actually asking for these things to be done, but people’s reaction to it being done shows that they are indeed perfectly fine with the idea of certain people not being represented or included imo.

It’s like the equivalent of the strawman of angry flag wavers being mad at black people, for the bbc choosing not to sing a song.

[Marsh.]

Well not really, my point was nobody is actually asking for these things to be done, but people’s reaction to it being done shows that they are indeed perfectly fine with the idea of certain people not being represented or included imo.

It’s like the equivalent of the strawman of angry flag wavers being mad at black people, for the bbc choosing not to sing a song.

Not really an equivalent. Stopping racist actions against minorities has no effect on white people. It helps to move towards equality.

Forcing a change in language women can use about themselves because a minority of people find it excludes them is simultaneously telling one group their feelings on language used to refer to them matters more than the other. That's unequal and a double standard.

[Amy Jade]

Why are people honestly bothered?

So long as it does it's job who gives a **** what it says on the box?

[Liam-]

Not really an equivalent. Stopping racist actions against minorities has no effect on white people. It helps to move towards equality.

Forcing a change in language women can use about themselves because a minority of people find it excludes them is simultaneously telling one group their feelings on language used to refer to them matters more than the other. That's unequal and a double standard.

Nobody is saying women can’t call themselves women, inclusivity is in no way ‘erasure’ or an attempt to silence or eradicate women

[user104658]

Nobody is saying women can’t call themselves women, inclusivity is in no way ‘erasure’ or an attempt to silence or eradicate women

"People who mentruate" in the context used on the box is a stupid and somewhat pointed phrasing, though, since - as I pointed out above - you don't actually "need" the paragraph it's in at all. It can be inclusive by simply not saying either. Choosing to include the stock-phrase "people who menstruate" - one that has already been gathering negative feedback - STRONGLY suggests that they're using it deliberately for free publicity.

[Kizzy]

Well not really, my point was nobody is actually asking for these things to be done, but people’s reaction to it being done shows that they are indeed perfectly fine with the idea of certain people not being represented or included imo.

It’s like the equivalent of the strawman of angry flag wavers being mad at black people, for the bbc choosing not to sing a song.

If nobody asked for it to be done why is it, if you're against this you're that same as racists? Nah...

These are for people with a female reproductive system, that's just a fact, it's not highlighted to offend anyone.

[Marsh.]

Nobody is saying women can’t call themselves women, inclusivity is in no way ‘erasure’ or an attempt to silence or eradicate women

The daft clapback to the use of the word "woman" to describe a born woman suggests otherwise.

[Cherie]

So, is it trivial or is it alienation?

This is, kind of, my problem with the debate. Women are told to stop getting offended or for caring too much about trivial matters like "words on a box" whilst simultaneously being told that trivial matters like "words on a box" are alienating trans people. :shrug: So, effectively, trans people can take issue with words they find degrading or erasing, but cis women can't. It's a double standard.

:clap2:

[Withano]

Terfs are the biggest snowflakes out there

Imagine there’s a 13 year old boy out there somewhere who obviously has not had any surgery and has started menstruating. Products like these would mean the world to him. Butthurt fully grown women with zero sympathy for people going through tougher times than them.

[Liam-]

If nobody asked for it to be done why is it, if you're against this you're that same as racists? Nah...

These are for people with a female reproductive system, that's just a fact, it's not highlighted to offend anyone.

Did I say you were the same as racists? I said the template of the argument is the same, company does something off their own backs, people get mad at the people not asking for it to be done, it’s how the entire ‘culture war’ is stoked

The daft clapback to the use of the word "woman" to describe a born woman suggests otherwise.

What?

[Marsh.]

What?

:laugh: What?

[Marsh.]

Did I say you were the same as racists? I said the template of the argument is the same, company does something off their own backs, people get mad at the people not asking for it to be done, it’s how the entire ‘culture war’ is stoked

Not really. The debate over the use of the word woman has been going long before this brand decided to do this.

They decided to do this for the publicity of what is already a big controversy, with the JK Rowling stories amongst others.

Extreme trans activists are doing more harm than ever to the trans community IMO.

[Cherie]

Not really. The debate over the use of the word woman has been going long before this brand decided to do this.

They decided to do this for the publicity of what is already a big controversy, with the JK Rowling stories amongst others.

Extreme trans activists are doing more harm than ever to the trans community IMO.

yep

[Kizzy]

Terfs are the biggest snowflakes out there

Imagine there’s a 13 year old boy out there somewhere who obviously has not had any surgery and has started menstruating. Products like these would mean the world to him. Butthurt fully grown women with zero sympathy for people going through tougher times than them.

Terf now?...it gets better.

Why would the wording on the box prevent him using them? .. or in some magical way lessen the trauma he is facing?... it wouldn't you're projecting your opinion to demonise anyone who has a counter view on this. Who, if you've noticed are not all women, if you checked your own prejudice you'd see that.

[Crimson Dynamo]

13 year old boys dont menstruate

was that a typo?

[Withano]

Terf now?...it gets better.

Why would the wording on the box prevent him using them? .. or in some magical way lessen the trauma he is facing?... it wouldn't you're projecting your opinion to demonise anyone who has a counter view on this. Who, if you've noticed are not all women, if you checked your own prejudice you'd see that.

Not being funny, but you are a person that menstruates. So is any young transboy. So is any transman. It’s entirely inclusive of all of you and you all share the product. So maybe any person upset by the words should start realising that this product is not all about them.

[Kizzy]

Did I say you were the same as racists? I said the template of the argument is the same, company does something off their own backs, people get mad at the people not asking for it to be done, it’s how the entire ‘culture war’ is stoked


You could've used an analogy that was less slanted then imo.
It alludes that anyone questioning this is in some way biased or ignorant.

[Kizzy]

Not being funny, but you are a person that menstruates. So is any young transboy. So is any transman. It’s entirely inclusive of all of you and you all share the product. So maybe any person upset by the words should start realising that this product is not all about them.

I didn't find being aligned with terfs funny. I'm a woman, why is it so hard to say?

As said inclusivity has to encompass everyone or nobody... Take male/female men/women off everything or nothing for there to be an equal playing field.

[Marsh.]

Funny how the word "man" is not being fought over in the same way. Hmm

[Oliver_W]

Not being funny, but you are a person that menstruates. So is any young transboy. So is any transman. It’s entirely inclusive of all of you and you all share the product. So maybe any person upset by the words should start realising that this product is not all about them.

Transmen are biologically women though.

Maybe the word "female" should be used instead?

[Marsh.]

Transmen are biologically women though.

Maybe the word "female" should be used instead?

Using terms referring to biologial sex to advertise a product to cater to specific biological needs?

Don't be so ridiculous! In 2020?

[Withano]

Transmen are biologically women though.

Maybe the word "female" should be used instead?

Oh if you don’t see how calling a transman a female is rude, discriminatory, or at the least, problematic - I don’t think it’s worth us having a little chat.

[Oliver_W]

Oh if you don’t see how calling a transman a female is rude, discriminatory, or at the least, problematic - I don’t think it’s worth us having a little chat.

They literally are female though :shrug: You can't change your biological sex.

[Marsh.]

Oh if you don’t see how calling a transman a female is rude, discriminatory, or at the least, problematic - I don’t think it’s worth us having a little chat.

Only if they're entirely uneducated.

[Kizzy]

Oh if you don’t see how calling a transman a female is rude, discriminatory, or at the least, problematic - I don’t think it’s worth us having a little chat.

Yes that's it anyone that asks a perfectly innocent question that requires a legitimate answer insult and ignore them.

[Withano]

They literally are female though :shrug: You can't change your biological sex.

Well make your own product that goes in to detail about explaining what a biological female is then. ‘A person that menstruates” is a much faster, kinder, and clearer way to explain this imo.

[Kizzy]

Only if they're entirely uneducated.

How do you get educated if you ask a question and the reply is, I don't think it's worth responding?

[Oliver_W]

Well make your own product that goes in to detail about explaining what a biological female is then. ‘A person that menstruates” is a much faster, kinder, and clearer way to explain this imo.

Nah, the word "woman" covers that quite nicely.

[Withano]

Yes that's it anyone that asks a perfectly innocent question that requires a legitimate answer insult and ignore them.

Nothing I’ve said is worse than transphobia, which is the thinly veiled issue in the thread lbr

[Withano]

Nah, the word "woman" covers that quite nicely.

Oh if you don’t see how calling a transman a female is rude, discriminatory, or at the least, problematic - I don’t think it’s worth us having a little chat.

Should’ve been a bit clearer here

[Kizzy]

Well make your own product that goes in to detail about explaining what a biological female is then. ‘A person that menstruates” is a much faster, kinder, and clearer way to explain this imo.

You are approaching this from one angle. Have you ever considered that girls moving through puberty my be finding the transition to womanhood hard, confusing or traumatic?


If you remove the reference that this is part of their journey are you not doing them a disservice?

[Oliver_W]

Should’ve been a bit clearer here

It's worth talking about, even if some do choose to be offended tbh

Why should women stand aside and surrender their title for some biological males?

[Withano]

How do you get educated if you ask a question and the reply is, I don't think it's worth responding?

See literally every other thread in the last 5 years about trans men. I’ve seen countless different people explain to you and Oliver and other users multiple different times.

It’s a lost cause imo

[Withano]

You are approaching this from one angle. Have you every considered that girls moving through puberty my be finding the transition to womanhood hard, confusing or traumatic?


If you remove the reference that this is part of their journey are you not doing them a disservice?

I’m sure she’ll grow up in a more tolerant generation that realise she’s a woman that menstruates, and there are other people that also menstruates, and with any hope, she’s probably already learned about this and is tolerant of others.

[Kizzy]

Nothing I’ve said is worse than transphobia, which is the thinly veiled issue in the thread lbr

Well it looks like you've made your mind up that anyone who has an opinion that this isn't 100% a great idea is transphobic.

Not much point being in a discussion then.

[Kizzy]

See literally every other thread in the last 5 years about trans men. I’ve seen countless different people explain to you and Oliver and other users multiple different times.

It’s a lost cause imo

So, for 5yrs I've had an opinion you haven't agreed with so that gives you the right to label me transphobic?

[Marsh.]

How do you get educated if you ask a question and the reply is, I don't think it's worth responding?

Well, exactly.

[Marsh.]

Well make your own product that goes in to detail about explaining what a biological female is then. ‘A person that menstruates” is a much faster, kinder, and clearer way to explain this imo.

So an entire gender have to avoid using words that refer to the reality of their biological sex because a small minority of people wish to ignore reality?

[Marsh.]

I’m sure she’ll grow up in a more tolerant generation that realise she’s a woman that menstruates, and there are other people that also menstruates, and with any hope, she’s probably already learned about this and is tolerant of others.

So she must grow up and learn to get over herself and be courteous of others but the transwomen mustn't be triggered because their life experiences are more important?

No.

[Kizzy]

I’m sure she’ll grow up in a more tolerant generation that realise she’s a woman that menstruates, and there are other people that also menstruates, and with any hope, she’s probably already learned about this and is tolerant of others.

Oh right, so now my whole generation is somehow less tolerant? And this generation will have a 'realisation' that their needs have to come secondary? And they're perfectly fine with that. Ok

[Cherie]

So she must grow up and learn to get over herself and be courteous of others but the transwomen mustn't be triggered because their life experiences are more important?

No.

It looks like women have had it too good, it's time we sat down and shut up

[Oliver_W]

It looks like women have had it too good, it's time we sat down and shut up

Women don't even deserve a name, they're simply referred to by their biological functions, apparently!

[Cherie]

Women don't even deserve a name, they're simply referred to by their biological functions, apparently!

yes! Gilead has nothing on this!

[Oliver_W]

yes! Gilead has nothing on this!

I wonder if people trying to tell women what to call themselves and to allow males into their spaces consider themselves feminists :think:

[Withano]

So an entire gender have to avoid using words that refer to the reality of their biological sex because a small minority of people wish to ignore reality?

If it’s specific to things that involves women and transmen, it would save a hell of a lot of time to use a word or phrase that includes them both

Off the top of my head I can’t think of any other time this would be needed

[Withano]

Oh right, so now my whole generation is somehow less tolerant? And this generation will have a 'realisation' that their needs have to come secondary? And they're perfectly fine with that. Ok

Well obviously as a whole, generations are becoming more tolerant? That’s not new. This has been going on for hundreds of years and will continue for a couple hundred more.

[Jessica.]

I'd prefer to erase the word "woman" entirely than to erase transgender identities. Not everyone who menstruates is a woman and it can hurt to see branding make it seem like they don't exist. Call me a person and not a woman if it makes life easier for an already marginalised community.

[Marsh.]

I'd prefer to erase the word "woman" entirely than to erase transgender identities. Not everyone who menstruates is a woman and it can hurt to see branding make it seem like they don't exist. Call me a person and not a woman if it makes life easier for an already marginalised community.

Good idea.

The population can be made up of men and everyone else in the "other" category.

[Jessica.]

Good idea.



The population can be made up of men and everyone else in the "other" category.Or just "people" duh

[Marsh.]

Or just "people" duh

Doesn't really help.

Is the answer to racism just to remove all indications of difference between skin colours, language and culture? No, because you'd be invalidating people's identity.

[Cherie]

Or just "people" duh

No one would be in the wrong body then? they would just be a person, and couldn't transition to be another person :shrug:

[Marsh.]

No one would be in the wrong body then? they would just be a person, and couldn't transition to be another person :shrug:

Yep by erasing individual identity and all the markers of those individuals you completely invalidate the trans journey, which is counter productive.

Fake progress.

[Liam-]

And what’s progressive about certain women clearly not wanting transgender people to be recognised as who they are and want the rights they already have to be stripped away, to suit them and their feelings?

[user104658]

Or just "people" duh

This is a broken circular logic; if it's "just people" then there is no such thing as a trans man. If there are no men or women, just people, then the entire concept of transgenderism is meaningless and there is no marginalized community to protect. A marginalised community of... who? Transmen and transwomen? How can you be a trans-version of something that doesn't exist? How can someone argue that they were born biologically male but "knowing instinctually" that they were in fact a woman, whilst simultaneously arguing that there is no such thing?

Frankly this is why the entire concept of transgenderism is in SERIOUS need of some proper, robust, academic sociological/anthropological study. It's currently a bizarre, illogical mess of contradictions... and yet, there's also a huge pushback around anyone being allowed to have those desperately needed conversations. So it's not going to get any better. If anything it's an area that's continuously fragmenting into ever-smaller subcultures of "lived experience" nonsense.

[user104658]

And what’s progressive about certain women clearly not wanting transgender people to be recognised as who they are and want the rights they already have to be stripped away, to suit them and their feelings?

You're passing judgement on a group (women) who have only had vague rights of their own for a generation or two and telling them to sit down, calm down and "everything will be fine". Also - to be frank - the VAST majority of the people I see doing it are either cis-men or trans-women (people born biologically male). 21st century flavours of the same ol' 19th century story. If you can't see how that's problematic then I don't think you really have much scope in telling others what is and isn't.

[Liam-]

You're passing judgement on a group (women) who have only had vague rights of their own for a generation or two and telling them to sit down, calm down and "everything will be fine". Also - to be frank - the VAST majority of the people I see doing it are either cis-men or trans-women (people born biologically male). 21st century flavours of the same ol' 19th century story. If you can't see how that's problematic then I don't think you really have much scope in telling others what is and isn't.

I’m not telling anyone to sit down and shut up actually, what’s the point in a debate if it’s obvious that people don’t feel that their opinions can be challenged because it’s coming from women? That’s not how life works, speaking as a gay man who’s demographic is also still facing rights based challenges, you’re doing exactly what you’ve just accused me of doing,

[Marsh.]

And what’s progressive about certain women clearly not wanting transgender people to be recognised as who they are and want the rights they already have to be stripped away, to suit them and their feelings?

Nope. Wanting women to retain words that describe them is not wanting to "strip rights" away from anyone.

It's a ridiculous changing of the goalposts used by extreme trans activists.

[Liam-]

Nope. Wanting women to retain words that describe them is not wanting to "strip rights" away from anyone.

It's a ridiculous changing of the goalposts used by extreme trans activists.

There are women out there that are taking it further than wanting to ‘protect their pronoun’, they want to strip transpeople of their rights to use the same bathrooms as them for example, a right they already have, you mention the ‘extreme trans activists’ a lot, but there are people out there actively wanting to discriminate against the trans community

[Marsh.]

There are women out there that are taking it further than wanting to ‘protect their pronoun’, they want to strip transpeople of their rights to use the same bathrooms as them for example, a right they already have, you mention the ‘extreme trans activists’ a lot, but there are people out there actively wanting to discriminate against the trans community

I do mention extreme trans activists who are hijacking genuine trans causes and taking them to the point where it helps no one, least of all trans people. Like I said, it's fake progress.

[Oliver_W]

There are women out there that are taking it further than wanting to ‘protect their pronoun’, they want to strip transpeople of their rights to use the same bathrooms as them for example, a right they already have, you mention the ‘extreme trans activists’ a lot, but there are people out there actively wanting to discriminate against the trans community

Whether or not it's "reasonable", it's not extreme for women to want their single-sex spaces to be maintained.

[Liam-]

Just think of the uproar if straight men turned around and demanded gay men use seperate public toilets because they ‘felt uncomfortable’ or white people demanded white only spaces because they’re scared of being attacked by black people, I don’t see this situation as any different to either of those scenarios.

[Kizzy]

I'd prefer to erase the word "woman" entirely than to erase transgender identities. Not everyone who menstruates is a woman and it can hurt to see branding make it seem like they don't exist. Call me a person and not a woman if it makes life easier for an already marginalised community.

So you don't think transgendered people consider themselves men or women?

[Kizzy]

Well obviously as a whole, generations are becoming more tolerant? That’s not new. This has been going on for hundreds of years and will continue for a couple hundred more.

You don't seem very tolerant of my views...what generation are you?

[user104658]

I’m not telling anyone to sit down and shut up actually, what’s the point in a debate if it’s obvious that people don’t feel that their opinions can be challenged because it’s coming from women? That’s not how life works, speaking as a gay man who’s demographic is also still facing rights based challenges, you’re doing exactly what you’ve just accused me of doing,

No, because I'm not telling women how they should or shouldn't feel about the erosion of their rights and identity (either perceived or real, doesn't really matter) I'm just listening to and accepting/understanding how many women feel about this issue, and noting that a lot of those who are calling them out (and calling them names) for that are people who were born male; be they now cis males of whichever sexuality or transwomen.

I suspect however that, as a member of a group that has some very recent hard-fought rights and as you say, you would perhaps be a little less comfortable with it if you felt like any of those right or any aspects of that identity - which were a LONG time coming, just as they were for women - were the ones that were being asked to "make space". I don't know, ai can't speak for you there.

Other than that I have no idea how you being a gay cis male means you have more agency in talking about this than I do as a straight male? :think: I mean if we're going to get right down to splitting hairs, as a gay male this is an issue that really has nothing AT ALL to do with you, you have far fewer chips on the table when it comes to how it affects women, whereas as someone with a female partner and two female children, how these things affect women actually have a fairly direct affect on things that are very close to home. Thus your focus is heavily biased towards "ally-related-thinking" which is fairly evident as you have a heavy focus on talking about marginalised groups and minorities. I feel that women get less sympathy on this issue than they should because they aren't one.


There are women out there that are taking it further than wanting to ‘protect their pronoun’, they want to strip transpeople of their rights to use the same bathrooms as them for example, a right they already have, you mention the ‘extreme trans activists’ a lot, but there are people out there actively wanting to discriminate against the trans community

"Woman"/"Women" isn't a pronoun, it's a non-specific noun (singular/plural), and has nothing to do with pronouns, nor the preferred pronoun debate. :shrug:

[Kizzy]

Just think of the uproar if straight men turned around and demanded gay men use seperate public toilets because they ‘felt uncomfortable’ or white people demanded white only spaces because they’re scared of being attacked by black people, I don’t see this situation as any different to either of those scenarios.

Look at you parading a succession of straw men around, none of those things bear any relevance whatsoever to this discussion.

[user104658]

Just think of the uproar if straight men turned around and demanded gay men use seperate public toilets because they ‘felt uncomfortable’ or white people demanded white only spaces because they’re scared of being attacked by black people, I don’t see this situation as any different to either of those scenarios.As above, I think this is hyper-focus and selective empathy based on the minorities component of the debate. It's conflation of something that is a completely separate, and entirely different issue.

[Liam-]

Nowhere have I said how woman should or shouldn’t feel, I’m giving my opinion just like everyone else is, not really a fan of words being put in my mouth

[Liam-]

Look at you parading a succession of straw men around, none of those things bear any relevance whatsoever to this discussion.

As above, I think this is hyper-focus and selective empathy based on the minorities component of the debate. It's conflation of something that is a completely separate, and entirely different issue.

I think it’s entirely relevant, the majority of people would be disgusted at those minorities being told they’re not equal or welcome in general spaces with everyone else, so why is it apparently perfectly acceptable to do that very thing to transpeople?

[Beso]

Some men probably do wear them for leaking bum blood...

[user104658]

I think it’s entirely relevant, the majority of people would be disgusted at those minorities being told they’re not equal or welcome in general spaces with everyone else, so why is it apparently perfectly acceptable to do that very thing to transpeople?There are multiple safeguarding and practical considerations (whether we like it or not) and - and this is really the crux of it - for the most part it's nothing to do with anyone saying a flat out "No! NO WAY!". I would take issue with those people, too. The problem is;

A) an unwillingness to allow the safeguarding reasearch to be done based on the premise that it's "offensive" to suggest that it needs to be.

B) an unwillingness (that frequently veers into aggression and name calling) to even hearing women's concerns on the issue, just a stonewall

C) Branding anyone with questions or who thinks that it's a nuanced issue that needs proper assessment before proceeding as "the enemy" or "a TERF" or "hateful".

D) Black and white thinking; the options are support anything and everything that is deemed trans-equality, without a hint of scrutiny or raising any counterpoint, or be branded anti-trans.

Probably more. Boiled down though, my issue (and I believe many peoples issue) is with their being an unwillingness to have non-emotive, nuanced discussion and that seeking it is hateful. It's just extremist nonsense.

[Kizzy]

I think it’s entirely relevant, the majority of people would be disgusted at those minorities being told they’re not equal or welcome in general spaces with everyone else, so why is it apparently perfectly acceptable to do that very thing to transpeople?

They aren't the same they are entirely seperate issues, frankly I'm surprised you of all people choose to lump all those into one generic issue!

It's whataboutism at its most basic.

This has NOTHING to do with gay rights or racism, as has been said on this thread by both straight and gay men this is not a decision that sits well with many...not only born women, if you can't see that then that reflects on you not others.

[thesheriff443]

As a man I’ve bought sanitry towels and tampons for years.

It’s called being an adult.

[Cherie]

The irony for me is when someone transitions the last thing they would want to be referred to is....’a person who’ ...they have travelled a long road to become a man or a woman

[user104658]

As a man I’ve bought sanitry towels and tampons for years.

It’s called being an adult.:think:... F... For yourself?

[AnnieK]

As a man I’ve bought sanitry towels and tampons for years.

It’s called being an adult.

Totally different thing though to be honest :shrug:

[thesheriff443]

Totally different thing though to be honest :shrug:

No there is no difference a man buying a product that’s for women.

A trans woman who is now a man could be buying the product for their daughter or partner as many men do.

[Ammi]

...just to say, Liam...I’ve read quite a few media articles about this and I often read the comments on articles as well...and there is some very, very positive stuff in support of, you know...and also some social media supporting with a few Twitter posts I’ve seen shown on differing media sites....so be encouraged by that, eh...because change in general is always a slow process, I think...

[AnnieK]

No there is no difference a man buying a product that’s for women.

A trans woman who is now a man could be buying the product for their daughter or partner as many men do.

And??? I don't get what your point is here? How does a man buying sanitary products have to do with this debate? The debate is about the wording for whom the product relates ie woman / person who menstruates. I am not seeing what point you are trying to make here?

Personally, I don't care what it says on the packet

[Ammi]

And??? I don't get what your point is here? How does a man buying sanitary products have to do with this debate? The debate is about the wording for whom the product relates ie woman / person who menstruates. I am not seeing what point you are trying to make here?

Personally, I don't care what it says on the packet


...it’s one of those things that I can completely see and understand both sides of it, Annie...‘Women have fought for so long..’...is something I understand so much and have very strong thoughts about...’trans’ is just more in the earlier stages of their ‘fight’ as it were and I’m so, so, so in support of that fight...?....things like this are so important as to be felt as progression and gaining allies etc, I think...

[Cherie]

And??? I don't get what your point is here? How does a man buying sanitary products have to do with this debate? The debate is about the wording for whom the product relates ie woman / person who menstruates. I am not seeing what point you are trying to make here?

Personally, I don't care what it says on the packet

Probably due to this comment in that article

“I run through a million scenarios of people staring at me, questioning me, laughing behind my back. Now I can confidently walk into a Superdrug and if anyone challenged me I could point to the packet and say "look, this is made for me".

[Cherie]

There are multiple safeguarding and practical considerations (whether we like it or not) and - and this is really the crux of it - for the most part it's nothing to do with anyone saying a flat out "No! NO WAY!". I would take issue with those people, too. The problem is;

A) an unwillingness to allow the safeguarding reasearch to be done based on the premise that it's "offensive" to suggest that it needs to be.

B) an unwillingness (that frequently veers into aggression and name calling) to even hearing women's concerns on the issue, just a stonewall

C) Branding anyone with questions or who thinks that it's a nuanced issue that needs proper assessment before proceeding as "the enemy" or "a TERF" or "hateful".

D) Black and white thinking; the options are support anything and everything that is deemed trans-equality, without a hint of scrutiny or raising any counterpoint, or be branded anti-trans.

Probably more. Boiled down though, my issue (and I believe many peoples issue) is with their being an unwillingness to have non-emotive, nuanced discussion and that seeking it is hateful. It's just extremist nonsense.

Great post TS, what is most disturbing for me is that no one can raise a hand and ask ‘how does sharing spaces/sports’ which previously would have been male/female areas only work in practice, and how can we ensure that safe spaces for all women including those who are transitioning/transitioned are not open to exploitation, thats not transphobic, that’s applying logical thinking rather than waving an arm round dismissively and ignoring some vulnerabilities in the approach that any discussion is transphobic...this thread being a prime example

[Ammi]

...to be fair, I do think the ‘non-emotive, nuanced discussion‘ sometimes escape us because ‘of closing down’ and different things in different ways on both ‘sides’ of the debate...really because so many aspects of so many things/trans related are just in their infancy and becoming more spoken about now and that’s a good thing and we have to discuss all negatives and positives, as it were...and because by nature, it has such a large emotional attachment for many as well...at least society has reached the stage where that can happen/...the discussions...I have many both ‘woman’ related and ‘trans’ related discussions and sometimes both together if relevant...etc...with family/friends etc...but often don’t get so involved in forum ones...

[Oliver_W]

Probably due to this comment in that article

“I run through a million scenarios of people staring at me, questioning me, laughing behind my back. Now I can confidently walk into a Superdrug and if anyone challenged me I could point to the packet and say "look, this is made for me".

People aren't gonna stop sniggering because of some words on a box. And the sniggering is probably unrelated to what they were buying, tbh

If a transman needs tampons, people who see him buying them will either assume he's a lesbian, or that he's buying it for a female friend or relative. Other shoppers and checkout attendants don't spend much time thinking about what some rando is buying.

[Withano]

Honestly, the sooner each person realises that this product isn’t exclusively for females, the better.

What a mess. The bulk of you have made yourself out to be cruel and petty tbqh.

[Oliver_W]

Honestly, the sooner each person realises that this product isn’t exclusively for females, the better.

Only females can menstrate though.

They might identify as men and live as men, but they'll always be female.

[Kizzy]

Honestly, the sooner each person realises that this product isn’t exclusively for females, the better.

What a mess. The bulk of you have made yourself out to be cruel and petty tbqh.

No product is exclusively for anyone.. why is the focus on this where is the uproar for the definition of 'male' condoms?

You are quite frankly coming across as sexist in this thread as not once have you acknowledged that the backlash to this isn't predominantly from born women.

I consider your attitude cruel, unwarranted and biased

[user104658]

Honestly, the sooner each person realises that this product isn’t exclusively for females, the better.

What a mess. The bulk of you have made yourself out to be cruel and petty tbqh.

People are looking for an actual debate/discussion on this topic Withano... Save the arrogant, dumbed-down, stonewallish "the sooner people realise the right way to think about this the better" dogmatic nonsense and mantras, pearl-clutching and faux outrage for social media. You're not going to stop anyone here from speaking their mind by calling them "petty and cruel" for simply having questions and counter-opinions. You do realise that by now, surely? You've strolled into the wrong saloon, pard'ner. You don't have a twitter army to hashtag in for a pile on... What gave you the impression that twitter ad hominem are of any use here whatsoever?

[Marsh.]

Just think of the uproar if straight men turned around and demanded gay men use seperate public toilets because they ‘felt uncomfortable’ or white people demanded white only spaces because they’re scared of being attacked by black people, I don’t see this situation as any different to either of those scenarios.

It is very different.

Separated bathrooms tend to be separated, for obvious reasons, based on sex. Not based on sexual orientation or skin colour. It's moving the goalposts of the debate to misrepresent the opposing argument. It's ridiculous.

[Marsh.]

No there is no difference a man buying a product that’s for women.

A trans woman who is now a man could be buying the product for their daughter or partner as many men do.

That's not the issue, in any way, shape or form.

[Marsh.]

Honestly, the sooner each person realises that this product isn’t exclusively for females, the better.

What a mess. The bulk of you have made yourself out to be cruel and petty tbqh.

You've spent most of the thread calling other forum members various things rather than addressing the points of the discussion.

Good for you?

[user104658]

You've spent most of the thread calling other forum members various things rather than addressing the points of the discussion.



Good for you?There's nothing to address, people just have to realise that [insert prescribed stock reasoning], and if they don't then they are [insert randomly generated ad hominem] until they change their thinking. Also JK Rowling is a hag.

[Marsh.]

:skull:

[Elliot]

This thread has done a great job at proving Withano right

[user104658]

This thread has done a great job at proving Withano right

You're going to need to flesh that argument out a little before you start puffing your chest. In what way has it proven him right? Right about what?

[Marsh.]

This thread has done a great job at proving Withano right

"You don't agree with me so therefore you're phobic and cruel and abusive" doesn't really work when all Withano has offered is to call people transphobic for not parroting the well-worn campaign phrases that ultimately mean nothing and help absolutely no one.

Like I said earlier, fake progress that, if anything, actually stalls progress further.

For change to happen, things NEED to be discussed, the nuances worked out and solved.

Change doesn't happen by telling other groups of people "We're changing things FOR you and you just have to accept it. ANY form of concern is transphobic".

That entire brand of activism is false and chaotic.

[Liam-]

And shutting people down because they’re concerned about the very visible patterns of discrimination that has plagued a community forever, as ‘ridiculous’ ‘radical’ ‘emotional’ is helpful how exactly?

It seems like people want free reign to discuss the ‘dangers’ of the trans community, without having their opinions challenged, they call those opposing them dumb or naive or emotional as I mentioned, yet don’t like being referred to as things themselves.

[Marsh.]

And shutting people down because they’re concerned about the very visible patterns of discrimination that has plagued a community forever, as ‘ridiculous’ ‘radical’ ‘emotional’ is helpful how exactly?

It seems like people want free reign to discuss the ‘dangers’ of the trans community, without having their opinions challenged, they call those opposing them dumb or naive or emotional as I mentioned, yet don’t like being referred to as things themselves.

Nobody in here has spoken about the trans community as "dangers". Talking about the dangers of self ID, changing the rules of changing rooms that are separated by sex is not discrimination.

What is dangerous is shutting down opposing discussion as phobic. Dangerous for the trans community.
That is what is being labelled as ridiculous and extreme, not your support of the trans community. You consistently misrepresent what is being said and present it as something more extreme in order to close it down and stick it under the "transphobic" umbrella where it does not belong.

"You can't stop trans people from entering women's changing rooms as it's discrimination" is not challenging any opinion. It's validating one group's concerns and invalidating another. I have no idea what the solution can be in the end, but it's certainly not by dismissing women, their views, their feelings and their rights.

[Liam-]

Wanting to change the rules of public bathrooms or changing areas to exclude trans women is inherently discriminatory, seeing as they already have the right to use them, there is no solution to it, other than the the often suggested, 3rd area specifically for transpeople or bouncers on the door checking people, I understand a woman’s every day anxiety about safety and whatnot, but is the answer to even further marginalise a minority? I don’t think so

I’m not misrepresenting anything, I’m responding to what people are saying and if we really want to talk about shutting down people’s views and invalidating their opinions, TS straight up told me he has more of a right to an opinion on this subject than me because he’s a straight man with kids, I haven’t once told people what they can or can’t say, or how they should feel, I’ve only ever stated my opinion, so I’m not quite sure why this ‘stop dismissing women’ line keeps getting thrown at me

[Marsh.]

Wanting to change the rules of public bathrooms or changing areas to exclude trans women is inherently discriminatory, seeing as they already have the right to use them, there is no solution to it, other than the the often suggested, 3rd area specifically for transpeople or bouncers on the door checking people, I understand a woman’s every day anxiety about safety and whatnot, but is the answer to even further marginalise a minority? I don’t think so

I’m not misrepresenting anything, I’m responding to what people are saying and if we really want to talk about shutting down people’s views and invalidating their opinions, TS straight up told me he has more of a right to an opinion on this subject than me because he’s a straight man with kids, I haven’t once told people what they can or can’t say, or how they should feel, I’ve only ever stated my opinion, so I’m not quite sure why this ‘stop dismissing women’ line keeps getting thrown at me

Well, calling anyone who has an issue with the changing boundaries of "woman" and what that means and any concern at any point of the process by women themselves transphobic is dismissing women. It just is. At every point of the journey it's validating any and all concerns by trans people and taking none on board from cis-women themselves. On social media, the cesspit that it is, it's resulted in sexism being seen as completely fine and rational/normal debate about trans issues being called "TERF" and "Transphobic".

If a club was to close its unisex bathrooms and split them into male and female, would that be "marginalising" men or women? No. So giving transpeople their very own safe space is really not marginalising them. It's literally making space for them and outright recognising and validating their existence.

TS straight up told me he has more of a right to an opinion on this subject than me because he’s a straight man with kids

It think it was more a facetious response to your "my demographic has hard-fought for rights" as though it meant your opinion was worth more. I didn't see it like that but that's what he was referring to. I've been in a sexual relationship with Cal for two years so my opinion is better anyway. :hmph:

[Liam-]

Well, calling anyone who has an issue with the changing boundaries of "woman" and what that means and any concern at any point of the process by women themselves transphobic is dismissing women. It just is. At every point of the journey it's validating any and all concerns by trans people and taking none on board from cis-women themselves. On social media, the cesspit that it is, it's resulted in sexism being seen as completely fine and rational/normal debate about trans issues being called "TERF" and "Transphobic".

If a club was to close its unisex bathrooms and split them into male and female, would that be "marginalising" men or women? No. So giving transpeople their very own safe space is really not marginalising them. It's literally making space for them and outright recognising and validating their existence.

Well, I think that all depends on how people go about having these discussions, if someone goes out of their way to offend transpeople when they discuss it, then it’s fair game to call them transphobes imo, if people want to have a nuanced discussion about something, there’s a way to do it without being purposefully confrontational and demeaning and we all know Twitter and whatnot is a total dystopian nightmare, that goes without saying.

I wouldn’t see a separate area for transpeople as ‘validation’ at all, it would be an acknowledgement that they exist but keeping them away from general public areas, imo that would be seen as a sign that they weren’t accepted in society but instead tolerated.

It think it was more a facetious response to your "my demographic has hard-fought for rights" as though it meant your opinion was worth more. I didn't see it like that but that's what he was referring to.

That’s not what I meant or said at all, he said women have fought for their rights and I said so have LGBT communities and he went on a rant about having more chips on the table so therefore has more of a right to an opinion, if people really care about people’s voices being validated, they shouldn’t put a tier list on the importance of opinions

[Marsh.]

if someone goes out of their way to offend transpeople when they discuss it, then it’s fair game to call them transphobes imo

Nobody has done that in this thread so his comments are not warranted.

if people want to have a nuanced discussion about something, there’s a way to do it without being purposefully confrontational and demeaning

Responding to a woman in this thread who spoke her own opinion about her own rights as a woman and calling her "cruel" and "transphobic" was confrontational and demeaning when there was no need for him to be.

but keeping them away from general public areas, imo that would be seen as a sign that they weren’t accepted in society but instead tolerated.

This doesn't make any sense. Separated changing rooms/toilets are all in their own space. There being 3 doors instead of 2 doesn't change anything.

Women aren't "marginalised and kept away" by having separate facilities to men. Trans people wouldn't be either. In fact, in turn, it would probably make them feel safer and more comfortable too.

[Oliver_W]

That’s not what I meant or said at all, he said women have fought for their rights and I said so have LGBT communities and he went on a rant about having more chips on the table so therefore has more of a right to an opinion, if people really care about people’s voices being validated, they shouldn’t put a tier list on the importance of opinions
tbh I can see what TS means - it's easy to support acting as if transwomen are female in every sense, but TS and many others actually have skin in the game - a wife and female children. Most genuine transwomen will use the bathroom and then leave, but there's always the danger that when you start allowing male people to use female spaces, some predatory men will take advantage.

[Crimson Dynamo]

still wondering what numbers we are talking about here?

because lets face it, its an issue

[Liam-]

Nobody has done that in this thread so his comments are not warranted.



Responding to a woman in this thread who spoke her own opinion about her own rights as a woman and calling her "cruel" and "transphobic" was confrontational and demeaning when there was no need for him to be.

Wait, what? I’m confused, I wasn’t defending anything that’s been said on this thread :suspect:



This doesn't make any sense. Separated changing rooms/toilets are all in their own space. There being 3 doors instead of 2 doesn't change anything.

Women aren't "marginalised and kept away" by having separate facilities to men. Trans people wouldn't be either. In fact, in turn, it would probably make them feel safer and more comfortable too.

I don’t agree with that, separate male and female areas are essential, but by having a separate space for transpeople I think would be a slap in the face for their journey to become their desired gender, I think it would come across as them being thought of as not allowed to integrate.

[user104658]

Wanting to change the rules of public bathrooms or changing areas to exclude trans women is inherently discriminatory, seeing as they already have the right to use them, there is no solution to it, other than the the often suggested, 3rd area specifically for transpeople or bouncers on the door checking people, I understand a woman’s every day anxiety about safety and whatnot, but is the answer to even further marginalise a minority? I don’t think so

I have no issue with people making a case for bathroom segregation being discriminatory (hopefully alongside an argument for making things work alongside safeguarding), I have no issue with anyone arguing passionately for ANY angle on a rights-based discussion. My issue - my entire issue - is the stance that having these arguments at all, or arguing any opinion other than the zeitgeist as defined by trans activists, is inherently transphobic, hateful or unacceptable. That any attempt to acknowledge that there blatantly ARE safeguarding concerns in certain women's spaces and complicated issues in areas like healthcare and sport is somehow bigotted and "cruel" because it triggers some members of a certain demographic. That expert opinion and academic/sociological/anthropological study of transgenderism that falls outwith pre-approved boundaries is so awful that it warrants ending careers. That concerned women voicing those concerns - often in the form of perfectly measured, reasonable questions even if you happen to disagree with their premise - are fair game for an outpouring of bile and (let's face it) misogynistic name-calling.

And that is where things are currently standing, very firmly. Sadly. This is a relatively new phenomenon - it of course goes very much hand in hand with general political discourse from the last 10 or so years - but it is (as Marsh has pointed out a few times) unhelpful and damaging.

Everyone has the right to be who they want to be as an individual, treated with respect and to not be attacked. "Hearing things you don't like hearing" is not an attack, and is not disrespect. Wanting conversations around the way forward that hears and considers transpeople AND women AND (most importantly in my opinion) fully considers safeguarding implications for vulnerable individuals is not "hateful". Seeking a robust evidence-based practice to pursue with children and adolescents who think they might be trans is imperative and not something for the "lived experience" mob to campaign against because they think it should be another way. People believe there is no safeguarding implication? Great! Allow the work to be done to generate a body of work that proves that, and then the next time it's brought up, you can argue that it doesn't with proper backup and citation. The suggestion and desire to be sure about these things isn't designed to "hurt anyone's feelings" and if it does, I can only really be blunt and say that safeguarding trumps feelings every single time. Sorry.

[Marsh.]

Wait, what? I’m confused, I wasn’t defending anything that’s been said on this thread :suspect:

You literally responded to two posts discussing Withano's contribution to the thread that if they don't wish to be called those words of a, b, c they shouldn't be saying x, y, z .
Unless you thought my post was related to a hypothetical? :laugh:


I don’t agree with that, separate male and female areas are essential, but by having a separate space for transpeople I think would be a slap in the face for their journey to become their desired gender, I think it would come across as them being thought of as not allowed to integrate.

I would agree with this if all we were talking about was fully transitioned adults.

But, this discussion involves children and self ID which muddies the waters considerably.

[Cherie]

Wait, what? I’m confused, I wasn’t defending anything that’s been said on this thread :suspect:





I don’t agree with that, separate male and female areas are essential, but by having a separate space for transpeople I think would be a slap in the face for their journey to become their desired gender, I think it would come across as them being thought of as not allowed to integrate.

I agree up to a a point, but take the 13 year old mentioned earlier in the thread would you expect a female of that age to go into a male changing area in school for instance?

[Ammi]

..I agree with Liam in that I don’t profess to know what the solution would be in terms of bathroom spaces etc...but as someone whose thoughts are strongly with human equality and considering the emotional and very difficult journey that is taken by ‘trans’...and how ‘separated’ they would have felt for so long, both before the journey and during it...it would just be awful for that ‘separation’ to continue in terms of those bathroom spaces and male to female finally reaching womanhood...Which is a place that they’d always felt they should have been from birth...

[user104658]

..I agree with Liam in that I don’t profess to know what the solution would be in terms of bathroom spaces etc...but as someone whose thoughts are strongly with human equality and considering the emotional and very difficult journey that is taken by ‘trans’...and how ‘separated’ they would have felt for so long, both before the journey and during it...it would just be awful for that ‘separation’ to continue in terms of those bathroom spaces and male to female finally reaching womanhood...Which is a place that they’d always felt they should have been from birth...Honestly I think people get a bit stuck on the bathrooms part, I don't think it's all that important and I don't think there are actual concerns surrounding safety in public bathrooms (any more than there are in general). The issue there is people's fears and comfort but even then, clearly, the way to tackle it should be compassionately and informative not militantly and aggressively. If a woman who may well have experienced violence from males is legitimately scared about this issue then the aim should be to reassure that person, not to brand them hateful and target them aggressively... That (obviously) does nothing but compound those fears. "UGH you don't have to be scared of transpeople, choke on my dick you stupid transphobe bitch!!". Twitter logic :umm2:.

However, yeah... The public bathroom is really surface level stuff. Child safeguarding, protection of vulnerable women in refuge etc., women's sport, the ability to use frank terminology in healthcare... These are the issues that at the very least need in depth, level-headed examination and discussion without the people trying to do that being targeted with guilt-tripping, accusations and aggression.

[Ammi]

Honestly I think people get a bit stuck on the bathrooms part, I don't think it's all that important and I don't think there are actual concerns surrounding safety in public bathrooms (any more than there are in general). The issue there is people's fears and comfort but even then, clearly, the way to tackle it should be compassionately and informative not militantly and aggressively. If a woman who may well have experienced violence from males is legitimately scared about this issue then the aim should be to reassure that person, not to brand them hateful and target them aggressively... That (obviously) does nothing but compound those fears. "UGH you don't have to be scared of transpeople, choke on my dick you stupid transphobe bitch!!". Twitter logic :umm2:.

However, yeah... The public bathroom is really surface level stuff. Child safeguarding, protection of vulnerable women in refuge etc., women's sport, the ability to use frank terminology in healthcare... These are the issues that at the very least need in depth, level-headed examination and discussion without the people trying to do that being targeted with guilt-tripping, accusations and aggression.



...but I don’t know who these ‘people’ who got a bit stuck on the bathroom stuff are, TS...in terms of this original thread topic...it wasn’t Liam, I don’t think where the diversion began and it wasn’t me...with respect, actually ...it may even been you yourself being part of the bathroom space introduction with...

‘A) an unwillingness to allow the safeguarding reasearch to be done based on the premise that it's "offensive" to suggest that it needs to be.‘..I’m not sure, I’m just skim reading...anyways, no matter because it’s how threads get diverted anyway and encompass many things, is what we often see...any safeguarding concerns are obviously something that have to be a primary as well/...and that safeguarding has to gel with equality also..which is what I profess to not knowing the answer to that and Liam was never dismissing or disregarding that, from what I can see...

...you say ‘compassionately’ and not ‘aggressively‘ and I completely agree with that...but then that last sentence of the first paragraph...really..?...that’s quite a minority ‘Twitter logic’ on this particular news story form what I’ve looked at...or at least there is another quite substantial balance of a completely different mindset... if people do indeed ‘get stuck on stuff’...then by definition of ‘being stuck‘...it can never be considered ‘surface’ at all...

...anyways, I really don’t wish to get involved further in this particular forum discussion atm...(..I won’t say never though, I might dip in and out...)...I’m actually quite confused with your stance and thoughts as well, TS, because they’re quite inconsistent with past similar-ish thread topics ...unless I’m recalling it incorrectly, which is entirely possible as well...

[user104658]

...but I don’t know who these ‘people’ who got a bit stuck on the bathroom stuff are, TS...in terms of this original thread topic...it wasn’t Liam, I don’t think where the diversion began and it wasn’t me...with respect, actually ...it may even been you yourself being part of the bathroom space introduction with...

‘A) an unwillingness to allow the safeguarding reasearch to be done based on the premise that it's "offensive" to suggest that it needs to be.‘..I’m not sure, I’m just skim reading...anyways, no matter because it’s how threads get diverted anyway and encompass many things, is what we often see...any safeguarding concerns are obviously something that have to be a primary as well/...and that safeguarding has to gel with equality also..which is what I profess to not knowing the answer to that and Liam was never dismissing or disregarding that, from what I can see...

...you say ‘compassionately’ and not ‘aggressively‘ and I completely agree with that...but then that last sentence of the first paragraph...really..?...that’s quite a minority ‘Twitter logic’ on this particular news story form what I’ve looked at...or at least there is another quite substantial balance of a completely different mindset... if people do indeed ‘get stuck on stuff’...then by definition of ‘being stuck‘...it can never be considered ‘surface’ at all...

That sentence is a direct quote of something I have personally seen on Twitter, and it's far from isolated; it is constant and prolific on any Social Media discussion of the topic that gains any traction. If the topic is brought up by a woman and sparks debate, threats of sexual violence against that woman will follow. Like clockwork. It's a MASSIVE problem and trying to shoo it away as something minor that is very rare is part of the problem; you have people saying "umm that doesn't happen" to people who are actively watching it happening. Is it a minority? Almost certainly but that's not really the point, is it. Yes it's a minority that goes to those extremes. In my (anecdotal, admittedly) observation though, the less extreme examples (e.g. women being called TERFs, transphobes, harpies, hags, bitches, etc. etc.) for stating anything that questions the trans activist zeitgeist is absolutely not a minority... it's rife. I've seen it on here, multiple times.

...anyways, I really don’t wish to get involved further in this particular forum discussion atm...(..I won’t say never though, I might dip in and out...)...I’m actually quite confused with your stance and thoughts as well, TS, because they’re quite inconsistent with past similar-ish thread topics ...unless I’m recalling it incorrectly, which is entirely possible as well...

When this topic came up a few years ago I had an almost polar opposite opinion to the one I hold now. Since then... direct experience of seeing people quite viciously attacked (perfectly respectful academics), the attempts to shut down and destroy discuission of the issue, the problematic charitable organisations like Mermaids, direct experience of the complete lack of concern for robust evidence-based child safeguarding practices, and an increasingly extreme rhetoric coming from activist groups (not just an issue with trans rights, of course, it's default 2020) has forced me to completely reconsider my stance on this.

Interestingly though, I'd say my issue with this on the other side a few years ago, and my issue now, are actually more or less the same thing. I was getting frustrated at the time by people stating dangers "as fact" with absolutely no evidence. That still happens, but now I'm increasingly encountering people vehemently arguing that there are NO risks, additional considerations, child mental health or safeguarding concerns again with absolutely no evidence. In fact there IS evidence, that is being aggressively ignored, in the child mental health arena that the rhetoric being used by trans activists (not fringe ones, very mainstream groups) is directly damaging to the mental health of trans adolescents.

When it comes down to it, I just want people to be able to do the ****ing legwork and be allowed to do so without being threatened, harrassed or intimidated "because it's hurting people's feelings". It's ridiculous. Grown adults whining about "hurtful stuff" and "things being like a slap in the face" at the expense of actual mental health research and child safeguarding. I have absolutely no time for it.

[Niamh.]

It's so rare to see anyone do a u turn on any subject on TiBB TS but I'm glad you did actually take the time to listen and do some research for yourself. And I agree with that point of yours, research, proper research needs to be done on this, most especially for the sake of children and teenagers, I have read lately that puberty blockers being "fully reversible" is starting to be back tracked on now for one example. This is potential sterilisation of children, that has to be looked at properly

[Liam-]

Thank you Ammi

[Ammi]

That sentence is a direct quote of something I have personally seen on Twitter, and it's far from isolated; it is constant and prolific on any Social Media discussion of the topic that gains any traction. If the topic is brought up by a woman and sparks debate, threats of sexual violence against that woman will follow. Like clockwork. It's a MASSIVE problem and trying to shoo it away as something minor that is very rare is part of the problem; you have people saying "umm that doesn't happen" to people who are actively watching it happening. Is it a minority? Almost certainly but that's not really the point, is it. Yes it's a minority that goes to those extremes. In my (anecdotal, admittedly) observation though, the less extreme examples (e.g. women being called TERFs, transphobes, harpies, hags, bitches, etc. etc.) for stating anything that questions the trans activist zeitgeist is absolutely not a minority... it's rife. I've seen it on here, multiple times.



When this topic came up a few years ago I had an almost polar opposite opinion to the one I hold now. Since then... direct experience of seeing people quite viciously attacked (perfectly respectful academics), the attempts to shut down and destroy discuission of the issue, the problematic charitable organisations like Mermaids, direct experience of the complete lack of concern for robust evidence-based child safeguarding practices, and an increasingly extreme rhetoric coming from activist groups (not just an issue with trans rights, of course, it's default 2020) has forced me to completely reconsider my stance on this.

Interestingly though, I'd say my issue with this on the other side a few years ago, and my issue now, are actually more or less the same thing. I was getting frustrated at the time by people stating dangers "as fact" with absolutely no evidence. That still happens, but now I'm increasingly encountering people vehemently arguing that there are NO risks, additional considerations, child mental health or safeguarding concerns again with absolutely no evidence. In fact there IS evidence, that is being aggressively ignored, in the child mental health arena that the rhetoric being used by trans activists (not fringe ones, very mainstream groups) is directly damaging to the mental health of trans adolescents.

When it comes down to it, I just want people to be able to do the ****ing legwork and be allowed to do so without being threatened, harrassed or intimidated "because it's hurting people's feelings". It's ridiculous. Grown adults whining about "hurtful stuff" and "things being like a slap in the face" at the expense of actual mental health research and child safeguarding. I have absolutely no time for it.


...as I say, I don’t really want to be involved in this discussion in a ‘forum’ way atm...so if it’s okay, I’ll just skim over most in replying but also say that I’ve absorbed all in the reading of...yeah, you’ve been on ‘both sides’ as it were with your stance..:laugh:...that was my recollection and I’m sure, often Vicky’s recollection as well and sometimes, Niamh’s even, maybe....I mean I wasn’t criticising your opposite stance, just more confused by it ...and particularly to something you said...(...which I agree with..)...that to have the discussions needed...’ the way to tackle it should be compassionately’...words of wisdom, TS...I think that rearranging our views is such an essential, tbh...otherwise on everything, we would all be ‘stuck in one place’ and blinkered in our mindsets etc...we all learn every day in every way/ type thing and so many different sources of listening to learn and consider and reconsider..?...etc...my ‘life song’ as it were and actually, one of my chosen ‘death songs’...is Both Sides Now, because we often look at life’s discussions etc from both sides...and that’s a great thing and a very balanced thing...and a very privileged thing...?...and the thing that creates that compassion...that is so essential and so much ‘the right way’, whatever our particular stance/mindset...


...so I guess, final word ...(...for the moment..)...

aCnf46boC3I

[Ammi]

It's so rare to see anyone do a u turn on any subject on TiBB TS but I'm glad you did actually take the time to listen and do some research for yourself. And I agree with that point of yours, research, proper research needs to be done on this, most especially for the sake of children and teenagers, I have read lately that puberty blockers being "fully reversible" is starting to be back tracked on now for one example. This is potential sterilisation of children, that has to be looked at properly

...oops, I didn’t see you post, I must have been (...slowly...)...typing...

[Niamh.]

...oops, I didn’t see you post, I must have been (...slowly...)...typing...

That's alright, wouldn't have liked to have missed the Joni Mitchell song anyway :love:

[Ammi]

Thank you Ammi

...:love:..I wish I had always had and could have your wisdom, Liam...

[Ammi]

That's alright, wouldn't have liked to have missed the Joni Mitchell song anyway :love:

...us ladies and our Joni, eh...:lovedup:...I’m erasing all males of having her heart and soul and that’s that of that...

[user104658]

that was my recollection and I’m sure, often Vicky’s recollection as well and sometimes, Niamh’s even, maybe...

Yes I was guilty of a few of the things I'm now criticising, which I regret. Well, just using "transphobic" a bit liberally I suppose, I don't THINK I called anyone a hag :umm2: ... ... Niamh definitely took some very undeserved flak.

.........I do still lowkey think that Vicky had drank a little TOO much of the Mumsnet Kool-aid though :joker:. That place is a horror show and definitely often the "flipside" of the extreme rhetoric when it comes to this discussion.

[Crimson Dynamo]

TS you called much loved children's author JK Rowling a hag

[Crimson Dynamo]

https://www.americansuperstarmag.com/sites/default/files/images/jk-rowling-070709-1.jpg

[user104658]

TS you called much loved children's author JK Rowling a hag

:suspect: It was sarcasm LT.

[Ammi]

Yes I was guilty of a few of the things I'm now criticising, which I regret. Well, just using "transphobic" a bit liberally I suppose, I don't THINK I called anyone a hag :umm2: ... ... Niamh definitely took some very undeserved flak.

.........I do still lowkey think that Vicky had drank a little TOO much of the Mumsnet Kool-aid though :joker:. That place is a horror show and definitely often the "flipside" of the extreme rhetoric when it comes to this discussion.

...well that was a quick refreshment break..:laugh:...I guess what I was trying to say..(...and very badly tends to be my way...)...is that, having yourself...walked in Liams walk and thought in Liam’s thoughts etc...?...and being in that unique position, more than anyone else in the thread, I would say...?...in terms of thought rearrangement ...(...for me...)... it was important to express that in complete understanding and compassion as well...’well I once leaned more to that but my thoughts now are...’...etc, etc...I mean, that is the main essential ingredient to that much needed discussion recipe...

...right, we really are on a break, TS...because I have stuff to do and I’m too easily distracted atm...

[user104658]

...right, we really are on a break, TS...

:bawling:

https://i.imgur.com/MBtijDs.gif

[Niamh.]

Also, one of my cousins lives in Oregon and one of her daughters is a fantastic athlete. She will be looking to get a scholarship to a College next year based on this, my mother was telling me this at the weekend and my first thought was, I hope for her sake they don't have any boys suddenly identifying as girls competing with her. I know Oregon has laws allowing this so it's a very real possibility.

[user104658]

Also, one of my cousins lives in Oregon and one of her daughters is a fantastic athlete. She will be looking to get a scholarship to a College next year based on this, my mother was telling me this at the weekend and my first thought was, I hope for her sake they don't have any boys suddenly identifying as girls competing with her. I know Oregon has laws allowing this so it's a very real possibility.

It is a very complicated situation in US higher education because of sports scholarships being so huge and so important, and higher education being so expensive. I don't just wonder "if" some males would disingenuously identify as trans "temporarily" in their late teens in order to secure a sports scholarship (if half decent but not good enough to secure one in the male sport) - I think it's flat-out inevitable and even, to an extent, understandable that they'd consider it.

That said, I personally think the main issue there is more to do with the US higher education system, the ridiculous amount of money involved in college sport, sky high tuition fees, and lucrative sports scholarships in general. The whole thing is an unhealthy mess, but baked right into American education culture (I mean, how many teen films and TV shows has the "pressure of the big sports scholarship" featured in?)

[Niamh.]

It is a very complicated situation in US higher education because of sports scholarships being so huge and so important, and higher education being so expensive. I don't just wonder "if" some males would disingenuously identify as trans "temporarily" in their late teens in order to secure a sports scholarship (if half decent but not good enough to secure one in the male sport) - I think it's flat-out inevitable and even, to an extent, understandable that they'd consider it.

That said, I personally think the main issue there is more to do with the US higher education system, the ridiculous amount of money involved in college sport, sky high tuition fees, and lucrative sports scholarships in general. The whole thing is an unhealthy mess, but baked right into American education culture (I mean, how many teen films and TV shows has the "pressure of the big sports scholarship" featured in?)

Of course that's also an issue but it's a separate one imo and should be another topic of debate entirely. This imo should fall into the same topic of sex based categories in sports for fairness and for safety (depending on the sport) Gender identity should not trump sex in the biological sense when it comes to sport

[Liam-]

Is there any evidence to back up this theory that young men will pretend to be transgender in order to infiltrate women’s sport?

[Crimson Dynamo]

there was that runner in SOuth Africa I recall

[Niamh.]

Is there any evidence to back up this theory that young men will pretend to be transgender in order to infiltrate women’s sport?

with all due respect Liam, in this case it doesn't even matter if a biological male is genuinely trans or pretending, either way they will have a physical advantage over women, if that wasn't true there would never have been a need to have sex based categories in the first place

[Liam-]

with all due respect Liam, in this case it doesn't even matter if a biological male is genuinely trans or pretending, either way they will have a physical advantage over women, if that wasn't true there would never have been a need to have sex based categories in the first place

So you would oppose a post op trans woman taking part in women’s events all together?

[user104658]

Is there any evidence to back up this theory that young men will pretend to be transgender in order to infiltrate women’s sport?

It's framed as opinion and hypothesis; the fact that a sports scholarship is the only path for people to access the best University facilities in the US and avoid six-figure tuition fees makes it incredibly likely that people would do literally anything necessary. The issue isn't having an opinion, the issue is seeking to influence policy based on emotion rather than unbiased research by - again - not allowing that research to be done, and deeming the pursuit of that knowledge "offensive".

The point, though, is that assuming that it WON'T happen is the only part that is dangerous and discriminatory against women, because the elephant in the room is that biological males are better sportspeople than women. I don't think genuine transwomen should be able to participate in women's sport. It is an unfair biological advantage and there is abundant evidence of that... it's just something that has to be accepted as part of being trans, at the end of the day. And what a ****ty situation for women in general? Having to repeatedly say "OK listen, we simply don't have the strength or speed to compete with biological males". Women at the top of their sport being forced out because it is a simple biological fact that if transwomen are in female sport, all of the top contenders will be trans. It's not even a question. They will take 1st, 2nd and 3rd and they will secure all of the adacemic sports scholarships for physical sport.

[Withano]

No product is exclusively for anyone.. why is the focus on this where is the uproar for the definition of 'male' condoms?

You are quite frankly coming across as sexist in this thread as not once have you acknowledged that the backlash to this isn't predominantly from born women.

I consider your attitude cruel, unwarranted and biased

If the product is not exclusively for females, why are people adamant that the packaging must say females? “I know it’s not for females, but I want it to say females because I use it and I’m a female and **** the men that use it”? Is literally what this translates to. Which I knew all along I suppose lol.

Honestly I can’t imagine many people would give a single **** if they removed the word ‘male’ from condoms. But I can’t imagine caring over something so petty in the first place

[Withano]

People are looking for an actual debate/discussion on this topic Withano... Save the arrogant, dumbed-down, stonewallish "the sooner people realise the right way to think about this the better" dogmatic nonsense and mantras, pearl-clutching and faux outrage for social media. You're not going to stop anyone here from speaking their mind by calling them "petty and cruel" for simply having questions and counter-opinions. You do realise that by now, surely? You've strolled into the wrong saloon, pard'ner. You don't have a twitter army to hashtag in for a pile on... What gave you the impression that twitter ad hominem are of any use here whatsoever?

I’ve never used twitter in my life and I can’t make much sense of whatever you’re trying to say. It comes down to people getting upset over transmen (very specifically transmen) being included in something that they always shared with females and people not liking that. It’s transphobia.

I don’t think there should be a second opinion or debate on transphobia in the same way there shouldn’t be a debate on whether some aspects of racism is okay. It’s not.

[user104658]

So you would oppose a post op trans woman taking part in women’s events all together?

I can't speak for Niamh but to reiterate, there is no "fair" way for any transwoman to participate in a physical sport against biological females, unless they started taking hormone blockers years before the onset of puberty (at around age 9 or 10), and that is an ethical nightmare in the making.

Basing it on current testosterone levels is over-simplistic, people who have undergone male puberty are likely to have a different bone structure, different body composition, and higher muscle density than a biological female and there's (currently, I guess?) just no way around that. If any one of the top 300-or-so male tennis players in the world transitions to female (and I'm not saying disingenuously - if they were genuinely trans) and took hormones and had reassignment surgery etc... there is a very high likelihood that on entering the women's sport, they would dominate every grand slam. Of course, they would also probably be physically unable to compete in the men's sport at competition level after hormone replacement. It's a situation that sucks but it just is the situation, and people wanting everything to be perfect is unrealistic and (to be blunt) selfish. It would be great for transwomen to be able to participate in female sport. It would be devastating for biologically female sportspeople.

[Niamh.]

So you would oppose a post op trans woman taking part in women’s events all together?

It's framed as opinion and hypothesis; the fact that a sports scholarship is the only path for people to access the best University facilities in the US and avoid six-figure tuition fees makes it incredibly likely that people would do literally anything necessary. The issue isn't having an opinion, the issue is seeking to influence policy based on emotion rather than unbiased research by - again - not allowing that research to be done, and deeming the pursuit of that knowledge "offensive".

The point, though, is that assuming that it WON'T happen is the only part that is dangerous and discriminatory against women, because the elephant in the room is that biological males are better sportspeople than women. I don't think genuine transwomen should be able to participate in women's sport. It is an unfair biological advantage and there is abundant evidence of that... it's just something that has to be accepted as part of being trans, at the end of the day. And what a ****ty situation for women in general? Having to repeatedly say "OK listen, we simply don't have the strength or speed to compete with biological males". Women at the top of their sport being forced out because it is a simple biological fact that if transwomen are in female sport, all of the top contenders will be trans. It's not even a question. They will take 1st, 2nd and 3rd and they will secure all of the adacemic sports scholarships for physical sport.

Yes what TS said basically Liam. It's unfortunate but unavoidable imo

[user104658]

I’ve never used twitter in my life and I can’t make much sense of whatever you’re trying to say. It comes down to people getting upset over transmen (very specifically transmen) being included in something that they always shared with females and people not liking that. It’s transphobia.

I don’t think there should be a second opinion or debate on transphobia in the same way there shouldn’t be a debate on whether some aspects of racism is okay. It’s not.

Oh you don't think? You're in the wrong forum section then. You not wanting it to be a debate or discussion doesn't mean it isn't one or won't continue to be one, and that attitude is basically 90% of the problem. I don't like dogma, groupthink and black-and-white blinkeredness so you can continue to "not think there should be a discussion" but I have literally nothing to say about that, other than that there's going to be a discussion regardless.

[Niamh.]

Just back to the actual original topic, have a look at this survey and tell me women aren't being erased though, everyone has a category except us, we're "other"

(the 3rd page you get to)
https://talktotdaye.typeform.com/to/vgaLcdYj
I am This question is required. *
If you don't identify with any of the below or you do and you'd like to expand on these terms please click other and state/describe.

A
A Man

B
A Transgender Man
C
Gender Nonconforming
D
Non-Binary
E
Intersex
F
Other

[user104658]

Just back to the actual original topic, have a look at this survey and tell me women aren't being erased though, everyone has a category except us, we're "other"

(the 3rd page you get to)
https://talktotdaye.typeform.com/to/vgaLcdYj
I am This question is required. *
If you don't identify with any of the below or you do and you'd like to expand on these terms please click other and state/describe.

A
A Man

B
A Transgender Man
C
Gender Nonconforming
D
Non-Binary
E
Intersex
F
Other

To be fair, having gone through it a bit more I think it's a survey designed to be given to people who have periods but don't identify as female, specifically.

Als o one of the questions is "How young are you?". Is this also a thing now? Is it taboo to ask someone how old they are?

[Niamh.]

To be fair, having gone through it a bit more I think it's a survey designed to be given to people who have periods but don't identify as female, specifically.

Als o one of the questions is "How young are you?". Is this also a thing now? Is it taboo to ask someone how old they are?

It says it's a survey designed for "people who menstruate"

"We're hearing from people who menstruate and learning about different experiences of menstruation. This is an anonymous questionnaire, and with your consent, your response may be published in a collection on our blog Vitals."

[Niamh.]

@MeetDaye are an organic tampon subscription box service, and they're running a survey on the shared experience of menstruation. This survey is inclusive of #trans identities and they'd love to hear from people of all genders!


Just not women apparently

[user104658]

@MeetDaye are an organic tampon subscription box service, and they're running a survey on the shared experience of menstruation. This survey is inclusive of #trans identities and they'd love to hear from people of all genders!


Just not women apparently

I think they forgot to tell the person who wrote the survey then, because ALL of the questions are clearly geared towards trans men/non-binary. They don't even make sense in any other context.

[Cherie]

I agree up to a a point, but take the 13 year old mentioned earlier in the thread would you expect a female of that age to go into a male changing area in school for instance?

you didn't respond to this Liam, I used a 13 year old transitioning female how comfortable do you think they would feel in the boys changing rooms for PE?

there are alot of gray areas that need alot of attention and looking at, and in instances above I would say being separate would be the kindest option?

[Kizzy]

If the product is not exclusively for females, why are people adamant that the packaging must say females? “I know it’s not for females, but I want it to say females because I use it and I’m a female and **** the men that use it”? Is literally what this translates to. Which I knew all along I suppose lol.

Honestly I can’t imagine many people would give a single **** if they removed the word ‘male’ from condoms. But I can’t imagine caring over something so petty in the first place

You're missing the point. Your argument is that it's insensitive to those transitioning from F to M. I'm asking why the same discussion isn't happening for those transitioning from M to F who use condoms. They are not exclusively for 'males'.

Is it not the same, Where is the debate on this?

[Kizzy]

@MeetDaye are an organic tampon subscription box service, and they're running a survey on the shared experience of menstruation. This survey is inclusive of #trans identities and they'd love to hear from people of all genders!


Just not women apparently

Thanks for this Niamh it really does prove that women are being squeezed our of any discussion on this issue for some reason.
My solution is to feature both on the box, that for me would be truly inclusive. To just erase one as a solution without acknowledging the reason for the change is not progress.

[Oliver_W]

If the product is not exclusively for females, why are people adamant that the packaging must say females? “I know it’s not for females, but I want it to say females because I use it and I’m a female and **** the men that use it”? Is literally what this translates to. Which I knew all along I suppose lol.

Honestly I can’t imagine many people would give a single **** if they removed the word ‘male’ from condoms. But I can’t imagine caring over something so petty in the first place

Of course they're specifically for females, no-one but females can menstrate. Same with condoms - only males have penises.

Maybe instead of "man" and "woman" the biological terms "male" and "female" should be used? That way they're included if they identify as the opposite to their sex.

[Ammi]

....hmmm, I don’t know with the survey because it does read like erasing/excluding of ‘woman’....which is very odd for a survey about menstruation etc...I think though, is all I can figure, anyway../...as TS said .. ‘ALL of the questions are clearly geared towards /otherwise they don’t make sense....’...so for a specific reason of trying to be all inclusive as much as possible and so frequent surveys to be able to always include all...


...a slogan of Daye seems to be... ‘It's a new Daye in all things female health’...they have a great website actually because they say how long a read, a certain section will be as well..(5 min read /8 min read etc..)..an ‘advice/help’ section and they have many sections and much advice ...so they do seem to be very much encompassing of all ...they have a section ‘Women’s Health’...and then under that they have things like...‘How Ovarian Transplants May Be The Future Of Menopause Treatment‘...and.... ‘Why Are Black Women Disproportionately Affected By BV & Thrush?‘...I didn’t know that black women were affected more, it’s all very informative stuff and very much supporting of womanhood, I think...another section is ‘Sustainability’...and looks at how eco-friendly etc...’Cultural Musings’ is another section...with a topic of... ‘How To Be Believed When Doctors Take Women’s Pain Less Seriously‘...so really supportive of all things woman, Daye seems to be...yeah the survey is odd and feels quite excluding but it must be targeting something specific, is the only thing I can think...



https://yourdaye.com/

[Withano]

You're missing the point. Your argument is that it's insensitive to those transitioning from F to M. I'm asking why the same discussion isn't happening for those transitioning from M to F who use condoms. They are not exclusively for 'males'.

Is it not the same, Where is the debate on this?

Start a debate on it? I couldn’t care less if they get rid of the word male from ‘male condoms’ and I have no idea if others do. Doesn’t make much sense to me if you’re asking me personally.

[Withano]

Of course they're specifically for females, no-one but females can menstrate. Same with condoms - only males have penises.

Maybe instead of "man" and "woman" the biological terms "male" and "female" should be used? That way they're included if they identify as the opposite to their sex.

you adore roundabouts you.

[Marsh.]

You don't think there's an issue. That's fine.

Others having a different viewpoint is not transphobic. It's a childish way of trying to close the discussion.

[Withano]

You don't think there's an issue. That's fine.

Others having a different viewpoint is not transphobic. It's a childish way of trying to close the discussion.

It’s not transphobic to be confused over the change. It is transphobic to say that transmen are females and the change should be reverted. That’s not a childish way to shut down an argument. That’s a fact to eat up and accept or ignorantly ignore

[Marsh.]

It’s not transphobic to be confused over the change. It is transphobic to say that transmen are females and the change should be reverted. That’s not a childish way to shut down an argument. That’s a fact to eat up and accept or ignorantly ignore

The change should be reverted? What does that mean?

It's not in anyway transphobic to say that transmen who menstruate still have their female biology. That's just a basic fact regardless of how people "feel".

Pussyfooting around feelings with anything does not change reality.

[Kizzy]

Start a debate on it? I couldn’t care less if they get rid of the word male from ‘male condoms’ and I have no idea if others do. Doesn’t make much sense to me if you’re asking me personally.

Hmm you're very invested in this discussion but when it comes to removing the word male you couldnt care less? OK.

[Kizzy]

It’s not transphobic to be confused over the change. It is transphobic to say that transmen are females and the change should be reverted. That’s not a childish way to shut down an argument. That’s a fact to eat up and accept or ignorantly ignore

Again you are skirting around the issue. It doesn't help anyone removing text...add text. Say they are for women and transmen, what's the issue with that?

[Niamh.]

Again you are skirting around the issue. It doesn't help anyone removing text...add text. Say they are for women and transmen, what's the issue with that?Yep, can't see how anyone could have a reasonable objection to that?

[Oliver_W]

you adore roundabouts you.

I'm not sure what you mean by this? I've not heard a single reason not to use "sexed language", boiling it down to biology gets rid of needing to dance around the way people identify.

Some females might identify as men or "nonbinary" lol but they'll never be not female...

[Crimson Dynamo]

Every human needs to feel important.
When you can't conventially you find other ways

[Elliot]

Say they are for women and transmen, what's the issue with that?

No I don’t think anyone would have an issue with that

[Elliot]

The only people that would have an issue with that would be some TERFs as some of them argue ‘Woman’ encompasses both of those

[Cherie]

Not at all the product can be produced with both words .....hows that for equality

For women

For people who menstruate

Everyones happy

Does ‘people who menstruate’ not cover all basis? What’s wrong with inclusivity?

No I don’t think anyone would have an issue with that

You would think?

[Oliver_W]

1302221079893676034

:joker:

It's almost comedic at this point.

[Niamh.]

1302221079893676034

:joker:

It's almost comedic at this point.

Why is always "woman" though? never man

[Cherie]

Why is always "woman" though? never man

mxn

[Oliver_W]

Why is always "woman" though? never man

probably something to do with transwomen being raised with male socialization, and demanding things be changed to accommodate them? That's one theory I've heard as to why you don't hear much from transmen.

[Cherie]

or even better m?n :joker:

[Crimson Dynamo]

bxllox

?

[Elliot]

probably something to do with transwomen being raised with male socialization, and demanding things be changed to accommodate them? That's one theory I've heard as to why you don't hear much from transmen.

You don’t hear from trans men because they have literally no visibility

[Jessica.]

wipe out all humans

[user104658]

No, that's not a typo: 'womxn' is a spelling of 'women' that's more inclusive and progressive. The term sheds light on the prejudice, discrimination, and institutional barriers womxn have faced, and explicitly includes non-cisgender women

:think: They couldn't even get through their own tweet without forgetting.

[Oliver_W]

:think: They couldn't even get through their own tweet without forgetting.

One might almost think the whole thing is BS or something :think:

[Marsh.]

How does one pronounce womxn?

[GoldHeart]

You cannot erase female and woman ! , No matter how much they want to .

There will always be products specifically aimed at women , and it's in the English language to say woman & female.

[Withano]

Hmm you're very invested in this discussion but when it comes to removing the word male you couldnt care less? OK.

I couldn’t actually care about this topic either, I just care about the snowflakey transphobic hysteria lol and I’d respond in the same way if some **** was upset that ‘male’ was replaced with ‘person that uses condoms’. Just unnecessarily sensitive isn’t it.

[Oliver_W]

I couldn’t actually care about this topic either, I just care about the snowflakey transphobic hysteria lol and I’d respond in the same way if some **** was upset that ‘male’ was replaced with ‘person that uses condoms’. Just unnecessarily sensitive isn’t it.

What transphobia?

[Marsh.]

I couldn’t actually care about this topic either, I just care about the snowflakey transphobic hysteria lol and I’d respond in the same way if some **** was upset that ‘male’ was replaced with ‘person that uses condoms’. Just unnecessarily sensitive isn’t it.

The only hysteria has come from your insult-riddled posts tbh.

[Kizzy]

The only hysteria has come from your insult-riddled posts tbh.

True, fancy not caring about the discussion but sitting in judgement of the opinions of others :/