The pensioner retorts: 'F. off! Yes you're a monkey.'

[arista]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8712975/Racist-pensioner-beaten-London-bus-two-black-passengers-calling-monkeys.html?ito=social-twitter_dailymailUK&__twitter_impression=true

Video Clip on above link.


https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2020/09/09/08/32953980-8712975-The_pensioner_is_accused_of_calling_the_black_pass engers_monkeys-m-39_1599637524118.jpg


[Shocking moment racist pensioner is beaten up
on a London bus by two black passengers
after calling them 'monkeys'
The pensioner calls black passengers 'monkeys'
in the clip from a London bus
Two passengers exchange angry words
with the pensioner during confrontation
They tell him to 'get off the bus' and
the pensioner eventually swings at them
In response, two young men punch the
pensioner several times in the head]


Was on a tweet
so I had to post it.

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2020/09/09/08/32953808-8712975-The_pensioner_is_accused_of_calling_the_black_pass engers_monkeys-a-38_1599637520767.jpg

[Liam-]

Violent racist gets smacked up, as it should be

[Niamh.]

I wouldn't be jumping around celebrating that an old guy got punched however it's hard to have sympathy either when he's got such a vile mouth on him

[UserSince2005]

Calling someone an animal and then them acting like an animals. Silly old man. He should have known better.

[arista]

Calling someone an animal and then them acting like an animals. Silly old man. He should have known better.


He is stuck in the past.

[user104658]

The reaction should never be violence, filming and reporting him was enough.

[Kazanne]

The reaction should never be violence, filming and reporting him was enough.

I agree with this , they would have had more credibility had they just filmed it and ignored him, all very much in the wrong. He is of an age that he was probably brought up this way and probably not fully composmentis, no excuses here just a thought and they were wrong to punch him in the head.

[Liam-]

We can’t all be perfect and not react when a racist abuses someone and takes a swing first

[Livia]

We can’t all be perfect and not react when a racist abuses someone and takes a swing first

Keep that as your defence.

[Jordan.]

We can’t all be perfect and not react when a racist abuses someone and takes a swing first

Weird tibb was telling us murder was acceptable as long as it was self defense only a couple of weeks ago but punching a definite no no

[UserSince2005]

We can’t all be perfect and not react when a racist abuses someone and takes a swing first

You need to be locked up if you cant control your emotions without attacking someone.

[Liam-]

If you don’t want to get smacked, don’t take a swing at someone, it’s as simple as that, old person or not, people shouldn’t be expected to keep their cool and behave when a bigot racially abuses them and takes a swing at them

[Liam-]

Weird tibb was telling us murder was acceptable as long as it was self defense only a couple of weeks ago but punching a definite no no

White people can murder people in ‘self defense’ but heaven forbid black people defend themselves against violent racists

‘Angry lefties!! :fist:’

[Vanessa]

Violence is never acceptable in any circumstances.

[user104658]

White people can murder people in ‘self defense’ but heaven forbid black people defend themselves against violent racists

‘Angry lefties!! :fist:’

Neither is defensible, neither was self-defense. Self defense is action you have to take to stop an immediate and active attack. Going in swinging on someone who has backed down is retaliation. If someone is hitting you and you hit back to make them stop then you're defending yourself. If someone punches you in the face and then a few minutes later you walk over and punch them in the face, you're both guilty of assault.

[Liam-]

Neither is defensible, neither was self-defense. Self defense is action you have to take to stop an immediate and active attack. Going in swinging on someone who has backed down is retaliation. If someone is hitting you and you hit back to make them stop then you're defending yourself. If someone punches you in the face and then a few minutes later you walk over and punch them in the face, you're both guilty of assault.

‘Other passengers stand between the arguing parties and try to defuse the situation, while encouraging the two black commuters to leave the bus.

They do, but more angry words are exchanged before the pensioner jumps to his feet and appears to swing at the black passengers.

He is then punched several times, leaving him with a black eye and a bump on his head.‘

They were leaving, he got up to them and swung at them, they didn’t ‘go back’ to him.

[UserSince2005]

imagine trying to justify an old man being attacked. embarrassing.

[Liam-]

Ah, they got back on the bus, but the old guy got up and swung first so, sorry, he asked for it

[Ammi]

...not wishing to open a whole can of worms/..type thing...I know that some older people can have quite prejudiced views on race as well as other things and it can never be excused as a generation thing because it was prejudice back in the day and remains prejudice...but since the referendum/result...it feels that those prejudices are much more vocal, rather than staying within the head and thoughts...which if they have to be felt and could never be changed, is the best place for them...

[Liam-]

If a violent old bigot started calling me a ******, puff, queer, pillow biter or whatnot and then took a swing at me then sorry, but I was raised to defend myself, I’m not gonna potentially take a beating from a bigot because they’re old, not happening I’m afraid

[The Slim Reaper]

Violence is never, ever acceptable. Unless you're waaaay over on the Left, right Liam? Then you can smack anyone who disagrees with you.

Boris the lefty.

C9MUwBEJRwk

[user104658]

‘Other passengers stand between the arguing parties and try to defuse the situation, while encouraging the two black commuters to leave the bus.

They do, but more angry words are exchanged before the pensioner jumps to his feet and appears to swing at the black passengers.

He is then punched several times, leaving him with a black eye and a bump on his head.‘

They were leaving, he got up to them and swung at them, they didn’t ‘go back’ to him.

I watched the video with my eyeballs, I didn't need a synopsis, he was nowhere near them when they approached on the attack. I'm not justifying what he said or did, throw the racist old arsehole in jail for his final days, whatever... throwing your hands around is never the right response unless you absolutely have to. You "being raised" to respond to violence with violent retaliation doesn't really put a dent in that.

[Ammi]

If a violent old bigot started calling me a ******, puff, queer, pillow biter or whatnot and then took a swing at me then sorry, but I was raised to defend myself, I’m not gonna potentially take a beating from a bigot because they’re old, not happening I’m afraid

..yeah...(...from the vid that we can see atm...)... the older guy did actively appear to pursue the physical, as well as his verbal abuse...so obviously never condoning violence....it would surely be a ‘self defence’ and a ‘was it reasonable force’, type thing...and it went out of shot a bit so hopefully the police could determine that...

[Crimson Dynamo]

we obviously dont see how it started but essentially when a bully attacks someone he only does so when he knows he wont get hurt, that is why they do it. If that old frail man had been a strapping 6 foot 4 30-year-old the aggressive attackers would have done nowt.

Its not about racism its about bullying imo

vile all around andf again an out of context video that is very one sided

where have we seen that before

:rolleyes:

[user104658]

..yeah...(...from the vid that we can see atm...)... the older guy did actively appear to pursue the physical, as well as his verbal abuse...so obviously never condoning violence....it would surely be a ‘self defence’ and a ‘was it reasonable force’, type thing...and it went out of shot a bit so hopefully the police could determine that...

:shrug: it doesn't go out of shot, one of the men is stood at the front of the shot with his chest right next to the camera, the ol' racist is off to the top right of the shot up a step a good 6ft away, the guy turns around and climbs the step moving towards him, he pushes him away and then he throws the punch. The old man is the initial verbal aggressor, and the initial physical aggressor. The attack was provoked but it was not by any stretch of the imagination self defense, he moved towards him with clear intent.

[edit to add] I personally don't think provokation is often a good reason for physical retaliation and it shows an alarming lack of self control. On top of that, physically attacking someone who is clearly far physically weaker than you are for any reason - again other than to stop an immediate threat to yourself of someone else - is morally abhorrent. That's regardless of whether or not that happens to be a good person.

[Ammi]

:shrug: it doesn't go out of shot, one of the men is stood at the front of the shot with his chest right next to the camera, the ol' racist is off to the top right of the shot up a step a good 6ft away, the guy turns around and climbs the step moving towards him, he pushes him away and then he throws the punch. The old man is the initial verbal aggressor, and the initial physical aggressor. The attack was provoked but it was not by any stretch of the imagination self defense, he moved towards him with clear intent.

...well, you obviously have greater eyeballs than me, TS...because I couldn’t determine everything you say from the vid...but I guess that if it was always so clear, the justice system would be a lot easier and maybe not even always necessary...I did say ‘appear to pursue the physical’...because that’s how it appeared to be to me and if that was the case then ‘/self defence/reasonable force..’ etc would come into it...I guess we’ll have to wait to see...

[Liam-]

How did he ‘approach him with intent’ walking up to someone isn’t violence, the violent racist started the physical altercation, a violent racist doesn’t deserve sympathy if someone retaliates, sorry

[Liam-]

..yeah...(...from the vid that we can see atm...)... the older guy did actively appear to pursue the physical, as well as his verbal abuse...so obviously never condoning violence....it would surely be a ‘self defence’ and a ‘was it reasonable force’, type thing...and it went out of shot a bit so hopefully the police could determine that...

Exactly, the boys were getting off the bus and get got up to pursue them still shouting abuse, why they had to get off when they were the ones being racially abused is beyond me but heyho, old white people can do what they want without repercussions apparently

[user104658]

How did he ‘approach him with intent’ walking up to someone isn’t violence, the violent racist started the physical altercation, a violent racist doesn’t deserve sympathy if someone retaliates, sorry

Him deserving sympathy =/= it being the right thing to do. I think he brought it on himself, I know he started the altercation, I think he should have had to answer (legally) for his actions. I don't think two large young men should have continued a physical altercation that they did not need to continue with someone smaller and frailer than them. How they felt is justifiable - I don't find their actions justifiable. He was not an active physical threat.

Moral judgement aside - I don't think it's a good look and if they'd caved in his head (which is actually quite feasible if a young fit guy is punching an old brittle skull full force) they'd achieve nothing other than getting themselves thrown in jail for a long time.

[Liam-]

If you’re ‘old and frail’ you shouldn’t be out abusing people and starting fights, not everyone has the ability to bite their tongue and not retaliate when they’re attacked and I don’t think they have to either, if you’re tough enough to throw a punch, don’t be surprised when you get something back, old or not

[Niamh.]

I wouldn't say it was justifiable of them to hit him however I can understand why they got that angry

[Fetch The Bolt Cutters]

Deserved

[user104658]

If you’re ‘old and frail’ you shouldn’t be out abusing people and starting fights, not everyone has the ability to bite their tongue and not retaliate when they’re attacked and I don’t think they have to either, if you’re tough enough to throw a punch, don’t be surprised when you get something back, old or notNot to be overly patronising (well... Actually yes to probably be overly patronising) but I suspect you'll feel differently when you're older. Violence in response to violence solves nothing and most people figure that out eventually.

[Liam-]

Not to be overly patronising (well... Actually yes to probably be overly patronising) but I suspect you'll feel differently when you're older. Violence in response to violence solves nothing and most people figure that out eventually.

I’m 25, not a teenager, my opinions aren’t less valid than yours because you’re middle aged :hmph:

[user104658]

I’m 25, not a teenager, my opinions aren’t less valid than yours because you’re middle aged :hmph:They're not more valid either, and my opinion and observation is that people - at least the ones with half a brain - get less inclined to violence and justifying unnecessary violence as they get older.

I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt, really. Maybe your opinion won't change and you'll continue advocating for violent response to violence. In which case my opinion would be that you still have growing up to do.

My opinion on this would have been very different when I was 25.

[Liam-]

I didn’t say my opinion was more valid either, but carry on making it personal if you wish, it’s only what you accuse other people of doing all the time, but sure

[Ammi]

I wouldn't say it was justifiable of them to hit him however I can understand why they got that angry

...yeah, this exactly...’in a perfect world’...but the world is far from perfect ...and even if he felt those prejudices and continued to do so forever and ever..the older guy’s ‘wisdom of age’....should have never levelled that hateful abuse in the care of his own safety...



....(..I still can’t see clearly that it most definitely wasn’t open to the reasonable force’ thing...

[user104658]

I didn’t say my opinion was more valid either, but carry on making it personal if you wish, it’s only what you accuse other people of doing all the time, but sureI'm not making it personal, I'm specifically disagreeing with your opinion that retaliatory violence is a justifiable/morally sound response to aggression and pointing out that I find that younger people (not saying all do, or that no older people do) are more inclined to hold that position.

It's all entirely relevant to this thread?

[Ammi]

..I really don’t think that Liam is advocating for violent responses to violence as a whole, as such, he’s very anti violence from what I’ve seen of his thoughts...but more, that violence may inevitably happen because ‘all responses aren’t equal..’...and the older man in his wisdom of years should have known that...



...anyways, that all really...the vid isn’t clear enough for me tbh...

[user104658]

..I really don’t think that Liam is advocating for violent responses to violence as such

He quite openly and explicitly has.

[bots]

it's all about the circumstances of the particular interaction. I know I have gotten particularly angry in some interactions and I even hit someone one time :fist:

Peer pressure can have an enormous impact, similarly if someone feels intimidated etc, they can hit out ... it may be wrong ... but it happens. People rarely get any training on how to de-escalate a situation, and it's probably the most important lesson you can learn in life

[arista]

He quite openly and explicitly has.


Yes 2nd post on this thread

Liam posted:
"Violent racist gets smacked up, as it should be"

[The Slim Reaper]

Yes 2nd post on this thread

Liam posted:
"Violent racist gets smacked up, as it should be"

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/MadOptimisticCanary-small.gif

[user104658]

it's all about the circumstances of the particular interaction. I know I have gotten particularly angry in some interactions and I even hit someone one time :fist:



Peer pressure can have an enormous impact, similarly if someone feels intimidated etc, they can hit out ... it may be wrong ... but it happens. People rarely get any training on how to de-escalate a situation, and it's probably the most important lesson you can learn in lifeThe only person I've ever hit that wasn't in actual self defense was at Uni and it was some tit from the rugby team which obviously is justified.

Also, relevant to the thread, I was 21 at the time and I wouldn't dream of it now. Not even a rugger.

[arista]

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/MadOptimisticCanary-small.gif

For Sure

[reece(:]

Think it's not the place for white people to comment on how a POC should react in the immediate instance of hateful racism towards them.

I will say that the bus driver should have immediately thrown the vile man off the bus though.

[Niamh.]

Think it's not the place for white people to comment on how a POC should react in the immediate instance of hateful racism towards them.

I will say that the bus driver should have immediately thrown the vile man off the bus though.

I think it's society's place to comment on violence regardless of colour actually but I do agree that the old man should have been the one asked to leave

[Kizzy]

I agree with this , they would have had more credibility had they just filmed it and ignored him, all very much in the wrong. He is of an age that he was probably brought up this way and probably not fully composmentis, no excuses here just a thought and they were wrong to punch him in the head.

If there's no excuses why are you making excuses?...
My dad was born in 1926, he would never have dreamed of speaking that way about anyone.

That said I don't think they were right to hit him at all either. Yes they would have been very angry and frustrated but as said having filmed the whole thing it was certain there was going to be some justice. This might not be as severe now due to their retaliation.

[user104658]

Think it's not the place for white people to comment on how a POC should react in the immediate instance of hateful racism towards them.

I will say that the bus driver should have immediately thrown the vile man off the bus though.Up to the point of physical violence I agree, at that point I 100% disagree.

[Jack_]

1:00:59 (and also 25:16)

bgwS_FMZ3nQ

[Jigs]

Deserved

Period

[arista]

Think it's not the place for white people to comment on how a POC should react in the immediate instance of hateful racism towards them.

I will say that the bus driver should have immediately thrown the vile man off the bus though.


No, he could get Hurt.

[Ramsay]

Lesson learned

[Kizzy]

Not to be overly patronising (well... Actually yes to probably be overly patronising) but I suspect you'll feel differently when you're older. Violence in response to violence solves nothing and most people figure that out eventually.

Then at these right wing get togethers in city centres why are the majority of the participants acting violent 40+?

[user104658]

No, he could get Hurt.I agree it's too much to expect a driver to step in themself. He should have told him to get off and contacted police.

[Liam-]

I'm not making it personal, I'm specifically disagreeing with your opinion that retaliatory violence is a justifiable/morally sound response to aggression and pointing out that I find that younger people (not saying all do, or that no older people do) are more inclined to hold that position.

It's all entirely relevant to this thread?

My age has nothing to do with it, so bringing it up to invalidate my opinion and telling me I need to grow up and that ‘anyone with half a brain’ would be against violence, is most definitely making it person, but like I said, you do you.

As it happens, I don’t believe in violence, unless you’re being attacked and then I believe you should defend yourself within a certain level, if they had dragged him to the floor and kicked his head in, I’d agree with you, but they didn’t, as far as victims of racial abuse and violence go, they were quite restrained

[Cherie]

The girl was the best of the lot, trying to ensure there was no violence, its nasty to hit out at an old person like that, the guy could be done for GBH now and get a record, you need to control yourself in public, yes the old guy was a racist but he now has the upper hand with a big egg on his forehead :omgno:

[Jigs]

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ConcreteMiserlyDuckling-small.gif https://thumbs.gfycat.com/MenacingTerrificIrukandjijellyfish-small.gif

Talk **** get hit
Age is just a number

[Samm]

should of thrown him off the bus when an incoming trunk was on it’s way :love:

[Liam-]

..I really don’t think that Liam is advocating for violent responses to violence as a whole, as such, he’s very anti violence from what I’ve seen of his thoughts...but more, that violence may inevitably happen because ‘all responses aren’t equal..’...and the older man in his wisdom of years should have known that...



...anyways, that all really...the vid isn’t clear enough for me tbh...

Thank you Ammi, having words put in my mouth gets quite tiring, so does being told my views are less valid first because of my sexuality and now my age

Yet we’re told we should respect and acknowledge everyone else’s opinion as equal, it’s exhausting at times

[user104658]

Then at these right wing get togethers in city centres why are the majority of the participants acting violent 40+?



I find that younger people (not saying all do, or that no older people do ) are more inclined to hold that position.



Maybe your opinion won't change and you'll continue advocating for violent response to violence. In which case my opinion would be that you still have growing up to do ..

I cover my bases Kizzy [emoji14]

Those people are not grown ups, and do not have half a brain between them.

[The Slim Reaper]

55:03 (and also 25:16)

bgwS_FMZ3nQ

A shame that folks won't really watch this and just scroll past it, especially the ones that really need to see it, in particular the "white genocide" crew.

[user104658]

My age has nothing to do with it, so bringing it up to invalidate my opinion and telling me I need to grow up and that ‘anyone with half a brain’ would be against violence, is most definitely making it person, but like I said, you do you.





I'll temper my opinions to spare your feelings then shall I?

[user104658]

Thank you Ammi, having words put in my mouth gets quite tiring, so does being told my views are less valid first because of my sexuality and now my age



Yet we’re told we should respect and acknowledge everyone else’s opinion as equal, it’s exhausting at timesNo one is putting words in your mouth, you've consistently advocated for violent retaliation throughout the thread. I'd gather the quotes but honestly there are so many I don't think that's even necessary.

[Liam-]

I'll temper my opinions to spare your feelings then shall I?

You haven’t hurt my feelings at all, I just find it hypocritical that you’re one of the first ones to get on your high horse and say people shouldn’t make discussions personal or, we shouldn’t try to invalidate people’s opinions, yet you’re quite happy to do both of those things yourself, if you want to debate my opinions that’s fine, that’s what SD is, but I think you’ll find it’s against the rules to insult and discuss people’s characters, but like I said, if that’s what you want to do then fine

[Liam-]

No one is putting words in your mouth, you've consistently advocated for violent retaliation throughout the thread. I'd gather the quotes but honestly there are so many I don't think that's even necessary.

I haven’t advocated violence, I’ve advocated self defence against violence, if you think people should just sit back and let someone swing on them, that’s perfectly fine, good for you, I believe people have the right to defend themselves up to a certain point and if you don’t agree, that’s also fine

[Oliver_W]

One crime or immoral act shouldn't be used to justify another, especially when it's coming from a weak old man who can be ignored.

[Jack_]

A shame that folks won't really watch this and just scroll past it, especially the ones that really need to see it, in particular the "white genocide" crew.

The entire video is excellent (and helps contextualise the excerpts), though probably a bit much to expect people to sit through. I used to be of the school of thought that “all violence is bad and made equal” until I watched this and did some follow up reading

[user104658]

You haven’t hurt my feelings at all, I just find it hypocritical that you’re one of the first ones to get on your high horse and say people shouldn’t make discussions personal or, we shouldn’t try to invalidate people’s opinions, yet you’re quite happy to do both of those things yourself, if you want to debate my opinions that’s fine, that’s what SD is, but I think you’ll find it’s against the rules to insult and discuss people’s characters, but like I said, if that’s what you want to do then fineYou're mixing up ad hominem with holding an opinion relevant to the topic that happens to apply to you, and you therefore find offensive.

I said that advocating retaliatory violence is a dumb thing to do. I stand by that.

I said that in my experience, younger people are more likely to advocate for retaliatory violence. I stand by that.

Both statements are 100% relevant to the thread. They are not unrelated personal attacks. In order to not offend you or be accused of getting personal, I would have had to keep those valid opinions out of the discussion.

That's not how it works. You feeling personally attacked by an opinion relevant to the topic does not make those opinions ad hominem attacks. :shrug:

I haven’t advocated violence, I’ve advocated self defence against violence, if you think people should just sit back and let someone swing on them, that’s perfectly fine, good for you, I believe people have the right to defend themselves up to a certain point and if you don’t agree, that’s also fineThat isn't what happened though, he didn't immediately swing back in self defense, he retaliated. They're not the same thing.

[Denver]

Who decided to reincarnate the Dinosaurs

[Kizzy]

They're not more valid either, and my opinion and observation is that people - at least the ones with half a brain - get less inclined to violence and justifying unnecessary violence as they get older.

I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt, really. Maybe your opinion won't change and you'll continue advocating for violent response to violence. In which case my opinion would be that you still have growing up to do.

My opinion on this would have been very different when I was 25.

You as a white straight man have nothing to feel frustrated about though do you?

You just moralise to others who have direct experience of prejudice.

Remember you mentioned groupthink recently? You have been told that young people can't rationalise and you've applied it here.
However, you also know that psychologically our experiences shape us as people, that is counter to the 'growing up' or 'maturing brain' theory isn't it? and is personal to each individual.
Liams experiences as a gay man of prejudice might have more to do with his response than how old or younget he may be.

I find the suggestion that a man of 25 is still not seen as having a brain capable of rationale, and when does that begin to decline 40+? So you are only at optimum decision making capacity for 15yrs of your adult life?
How has the human race survived for so long on such limited efficacy?

[Liam-]

You're mixing up ad hominem with holding an opinion relevant to the topic that happens to apply to you, and you therefore find offensive.

I said that advocating retaliatory violence is a dumb thing to do. I stand by that.

I said that in my experience, younger people are more likely to advocate for retaliatory violence. I stand by that.

Both statements are 100% relevant to the thread. They are not unrelated personal attacks. In order to not offend you or be accused of getting personal, I would have had to keep those valid opinions out of the discussion.

That's not how it works. You feeling personally attacked by an opinion relevant to the topic does not make those opinions ad hominem attacks. :shrug:

You said you’d give me the benefit of the doubt that my opinion is because I’m young, therefore invalidating my opinion because of my age, whatever your experience, it’s got nothing to do with me, I didn’t find what you said offensive, I just think it’s completely arrogant to assume I only think the way I think because of my age and that I’ll think differently when I ‘grow up’

That isn't what happened though, he didn't immediately swing back in self defense, he retaliated. They're not the same thing.

You must be watching something completely different, the old bigot swung and the bloke swung back.

If the bigot had just been a bigot and was spouting words and he was punched, I’d agree with you, but the fact of the matter is, he started the violence, we have no right to expect people not to defend themselves based on who’s doing the violence, do I think every act of violence deserves a physical reaction? No, but I refuse to condemn people who act out of self defense against volatile, violent racists, no matter how many times you call me dumb or childish.

[user104658]

You as a white straight man have nothing to feel frustrated about though do you?

You just moralise to others who have direct experience of prejudice.

Remember you mentioned groupthink recently? You have been told that young people can't rationalise and you've applied it here.
However, you also know that psychologically our experiences shape us as people, that is counter to the 'growing up' or 'maturing brain' theory isn't it? and is personal to each individual.
Liams experiences as a gay man of prejudice might have more to do with his response than how old or younget he may be.

I find the suggestion that a man of 25 is still not seen as having a brain capable of rationale, and when does that begin to decline 40+? So you are only at optimum decision making capacity for 15yrs of your adult life?
How has the human race survived for so long on such limited efficacy?

The development of abstract reasoning happens in early adolescence (12+ Kizzy, at no point have I tried to say that a 25 year old isn't capable of abstract reasoning ffs :joker:. Talk about conflation.

Also are you using "frustration" as advocacy for personal physical violence?

[Ammi]

The entire video is excellent (and helps contextualise the excerpts), though probably a bit much to expect people to sit through. I used to be of the school of thought that “all violence is bad and made equal” until I watched this and did some follow up reading

...I’ll try to find time to watch it i it’s entirety, Jack...is it of the thought processing of ‘all responses aren’t equal..’...type thing..?.../...I will try to find time to watch it, though...

[Kizzy]

I cover my bases Kizzy [emoji14]

Those people are not grown ups, and do not have half a brain between them.

Or...you've just disproved your own opinion.

Some young people have a certain response and some older people have a certain response then age is not the factor
You are also implying that intelligence is a factor, which imo Liam disproves because he advocates a certain way and he is very intelligent. So what's left? Life experience.

[The Slim Reaper]

The entire video is excellent (and helps contextualise the excerpts), though probably a bit much to expect people to sit through. I used to be of the school of thought that “all violence is bad and made equal” until I watched this and did some follow up reading

I've added it to my watch later for the next time I need some background noise, so I'll give the whole thing a watch at some point.

[Ammi]

If there's no excuses why are you making excuses?...
My dad was born in 1926, he would never have dreamed of speaking that way about anyone.

That said I don't think they were right to hit him at all either. Yes they would have been very angry and frustrated but as said having filmed the whole thing it was certain there was going to be some justice. This might not be as severe now due to their retaliation.

...yeah that’s the thing, Kizzy...age is not a reason, it’s an excuse...Race prejudice was as unacceptable back in the day as it is now...and for those who did and still do have that mindset.../...it shows a lack of growth in a lifetime given...

[user104658]

You must be watching something completely different, the old bigot swung and the bloke swung back.

He swung at them as they were leaving the bus, various people started to intervene and get between them, the guy who swings back is near the camera, he turns and approaches Old Mr Racist (I suppose trying to guess why would be speculation) and the old man then hit out at his approach and then backs away, at which point he moves in and throws several punches. He doesn't need to to stop a continuing attack. It isn't self defense. It's retaliation. I've just rewatched it 4 or 5 times. I get why he's angry, I get why he's frustrated, I get the impulse to lash out, I'm not even judging him for it. BUT I don't think he should have lost control and I'm never going to agree that it was the right thing to do. If I had to guess I think he might regret it, because losing control/composure feels like ****, though obviously I can't speak for him.

[user104658]

The entire video is excellent (and helps contextualise the excerpts), though probably a bit much to expect people to sit through. I used to be of the school of thought that “all violence is bad and made equal” until I watched this and did some follow up reading

I watched both of the time stamps you gave and a good chunk of the rest. I do think the video is interesting and thought provoking though I'm not sure it's entirely relevant? It's talking about political violence. Hand on heart, do you think the incident in the OP video is an example of the type of political violence being discussed in that video?

[Kizzy]

The development of abstract reasoning happens in early adolescence (12+ Kizzy, at no point have I tried to say that a 25 year old isn't capable of abstract reasoning ffs :joker:. Talk about conflation.

Also are you using "frustration" as advocacy for personal physical violence?

I'm not talking about abstract reasoning, I'm sure you've skimmed psychnet or such Web pages for insight. However I did suggest that personal experience is what determine future responses. We are not cookie cutter people unfortunately.

No I'm not using frustration to advocate violence, if you read my post again I use frustration to describe the feelings of the prejudiced minority and suggest that may be the catalyst for a difference in opinion from your own very privilege driven logic.

[user104658]

I'm not talking about abstract reasoning, I'm sure you've skimmed psychnet or such Web pages for insight.

If anyone was looking for an example of ad hominem :joker:


No I'm not using frustration to advocate violence, if you read my post again I use frustration to describe the feelings of the prejudiced minority and suggest that may be the catalyst for a difference in opinion from your own very privilege driven logic.

Ahh so you're using frustration as a justification for an onlooker advocating violence, rather than frustration of those involved being used as a reason for advocating violence.

I can see the difference but I still don't agree with you. Honestly this thread is an eye opener although I'm not sure why at this point. "How DARE you say that advocating retaliatory violence isn't a good idea!!". It could only be 2020.

[Moniqua]

maybe next time he should keep his fat mouth shut? :hehe:

[Babayaro.]

Video isn't the best as it's very shaky and quite short, but the old man is clearly a horrible person who got what he deserved, really.

It was hardly a beating up either, like the article suggests, so I think the two men were quite restrained in their reactions.

[Ammi]

...this is another article ...(...not condoning violence obviously..)...the older guy called people the ‘N’ word as well....


‘My cousin was leaning on the hand bars and the man randomly pushed his elbow off. So he did the normal thing and turned around confused and asked, “Why did you push my arm off?”

‘The man then replied by shouting, “Don’t talk to me you monkey,” which is when my friend turned around and said, “What did you say?” ‘We were all so shocked and then the man proceeded by shouting, “Stop talking to me you monkeys, ******* off,” repeatedly. She added another passenger on the bus reported the elderly man to the bus driver who called the police. The camerawoman said that before the physical altercation, ‘the bus driver called the police on the white man, but they clearly didn’t get there in time’. ‘The man then began calling us n****** and saying we shouldn’t be on the bus. He then kept coming forward as if he was going to push us,’ she added.

‘But then as you can see in the video ended up actually swinging for my friends, which is why they hit him. It was simply self defence.’ She said the other bus passengers advised the group leave the scene before the police arrived. ‘Everybody on the bus suggested us leaving. They all already know how the system is. We would have been arrested,’ she explained. In a lengthy post accompanying the clip, the Instagram user wrote: ‘Imagine being on the bus minding your business when a man begins calling you a monkey and a n***** and shouting at you to get off the bus. Keep in mind he tried swinging first.’


In a caption on one of her Instagram clips, she claimed the pensioner ‘got what he deserved’. A spokesperson from the Metropolitan Police told Metro.co.uk: ‘Police were alerted shortly before 6.40pm on Tuesday, September 8, to reports of a racially aggravated assault on a bus on Lawrence Street, NW7. ‘It was alleged that a man made racist remarks towards another passenger while on board the 251 bus towards Arnos Grove. ‘Following this, the man who reportedly made the remarks was then assaulted.Officers attended and found a 70-year-old man with head injuries. ‘London Ambulance Service also attended and the man was taken to hospital.


...full article..


Read more: https://metro.co.uk/2020/09/09/racist-pensioner-is-beaten-up-on-london-bus-after-calling-passengers-monkeys-13245132/?ito=cbshare
Twitter: https://twitter.com/MetroUK | Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/MetroUK/

[Oliver_W]

Name-calling doesn't warrant violence, even if it does expose him as a twat.

[Liam-]

He wasn’t punched because of the names, he was punched because he was violent first

[Ammi]

...being called ‘a monkey’ or a ‘N’ isn’t name calling, it’s racial abuse ...and it’s also been reported as him becoming physical first as well.../..the video isn’t clear enough, though... so we’ll see...but ‘name calling’ does diminish something very series in the most disrespectful way...

[Oliver_W]

Oh come on, his "getting physical" could be ignored by moving a few feet away. The response was no way proportionate.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Were they not taught sticks and stones?

I'm sure all the extreme left violence in America has influenced them.

Which is shocking

[bots]

i know it can some times be very difficult to keep your cool under extreme provocation, the law was on their side, the police had been called and they were never in danger from a potty mouthed pensioner

[Liam-]

Yeah, let’s just ignore racial abuse and violence

[Babayaro.]

Ammi & Liam are right!

[Oliver_W]

Yeah, let’s just ignore racial abuse and violence

What's the use in responding to it? His mind's not gonna be changed and no-one was agreeing with him, so ignoring him was literally the best thing to do.

[thesheriff443]

Racism and violence are both crimes.

[Liam-]

Ammi & Liam are right!

Well Ammi is more alt-right but thank you

[Oliver_W]

Racism and violence are both crimes.

Punching a weak old man is worse than using bad words, maybe they can take each other to court?

[Liam-]

What's the use in responding to it? His mind's not gonna be changed and no-one was agreeing with him, so ignoring him was literally the best thing to do.

Why should they ignore it? Why should they sit and listen to a horrible racist pig racially abuse them and turn the other cheek? Why should we be expecting them to suffer through it? They shouldn’t just have to accept and absorb horrible, volatile and violent bigoted abuse

[Oliver_W]

Why should they ignore it? Why should they sit and listen to a horrible racist pig racially abuse them and turn the other cheek? Why should we be expecting them to suffer through it? They shouldn’t just have to accept and absorb horrible, volatile and violent bigoted abuse

Sure, shout him down. Call him names back. That's as far as it should go.

[user104658]

...being called ‘a monkey’ or a ‘N’ isn’t name calling, it’s racial abuse ...and it’s also been reported as him becoming physical first as well.../..the video isn’t clear enough, though... so we’ll see...but ‘name calling’ does diminish something very series in the most disrespectful way...


I have to ask something here Ammi, I'm afraid. If, in the context of school children, a child was racially abusing another child... would you then take no action if that child turned around and punched them in the face (hard enough to give them multiple contusions)?

Would you take no action if the other kid hit first?

Would you take no action, even if the kid being abusive was a known and persistent bully?

I'm hoping and assuming that the answer to all of those, is that physical violence is never the appropriate response. That defending yourself is OK if someone won't get off of you, for example, is OK but if someone hits you and runs away... you tell someone, you don't chase after them and hit them back.

And assuming all of those things (and I really do hope I'm right, that a teacher wouldn't ever justify children carrying out physical retaliation)..

WHY on earth would it be OK for grown adults to engage in unnecessary physical retaliation?

I'm not talking about empathy here; of course you might understand why a kid would hit back. I understand why the people on the bus were frustrated, upset, enraged and hit back. Empathising with why it happened is NOT the same thing as condoning it, and certainly not the same as encouraging it or advocating for it as an appropriate course of action.

Can we forgive these guys for being frustrated, hurt and lashing out? Absolutely... but should we be telling them (and others) that it was justified? In fact not even just justified - but the RIGHT thing to do?

I just can't imagine it.

I can't imagine that you'd be approached by a child saying that another child did something to them - even something awful - and the response would be "Oh you should have socked them one back, right in the side of the head, little Jimmy".

[Liam-]

Nah, anyone that’s big enough to feel comfortable starting violence should be big and comfortable enough to expect it back

[user104658]

Nah, anyone that’s big enough to feel comfortable starting violence should be big and comfortable enough to expect it back

This outlook is childish and I personally don't feel like (or that I should have to) shy away from saying that. Really ridiculous.

[Liam-]

This outlook is childish and I personally don't feel like (or that I should have to) shy away from saying that. Really ridiculous.

That’s your opinion and I respect that

[user104658]

Sure, shout him down. Call him names back. That's as far as it should go.

I agree, everyone on the bus should have been giving him a mouthful and/or telling him that he was massively out of line. As soon as he started getting physically violent the bus should have been stopped, and the police called. Again I know that's "ideal world" stuff and again I understand WHY those men lost control and lashed out at him, I'm not condemning the action, I'm just also never going to condone it.

[thesheriff443]

Punching a weak old man is worse than using bad words, maybe they can take each other to court?

In terms of a court sentences yes.

But most arguments and violence starts with people exchanging words insults

You don’t know the person you are arguing with and in turn don’t know what they will do.

[Oliver_W]

Nah, anyone that’s big enough to feel comfortable starting violence should be big and comfortable enough to expect it back

Would you say the same about a gobby little ten year old who thinks he's a hardman? Because that old man is about as threatening.

[Liam-]

Would you say the same about a gobby little ten year old who thinks he's a hardman? Because that old man is about as threatening.

No Oliver, I wouldn’t condone adults attacking children, we’re talking about adults here

[Josy]

The guy was a racist prick.

Violence is never the solution to anything though. It should never be applauded or encouraged.

[Crimson Dynamo]

And when we find out the old aged pensioner has altzheimers or another mental health disability which caused his outburst

Then what?

[Josy]

And when we find out the old aged pensioner has altzheimers or another mental health disability which caused his outburst



Then what?Someone suffering with alzheimers or a serious mental health problem wouldnt be on a bus alone

[Liam-]

Alzheimer’s doesn’t cause racism either

[Josy]

Alzheimer’s doesn’t cause racism eitherActually any form of dementia can cause serious loss of inhibition which is often displayed as insults, sexism, racism etc

But that's neither here nor there relating to this thread.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Someone suffering with alzheimers or a serious mental health problem wouldnt be on a bus alone

Often they wander off, my dad used to get down the town when he wasn't to get out the house.

He was in m and s not shouting "monkeys" on busses, I will add

[Swan]

In a sense it's a shame the two guys reacted with violence, had they just let him be, there wouldn't be a debate about whether they acted appropriately and all the attention would be on the racist old man.

I kinda feel it's hard to have too much of an opinion when it all happened in the heat of the moment. It's fair to say violence is never the answer (which is true) but emotions must have been all over the place. Anger, frustration, upset. They didn't handle it the right way, but yeah i can sympathise with the situation they were put in.

[Liam-]

Actually any form of dementia can cause serious loss of inhibition which is often displayed as insults, sexism, racism etc

But that's neither here nor there relating to this thread.

Lack of inhibition yes, which means they’re more likely to say how they feel or what’s on their mind, it wouldn’t create a thought that wasn’t already there I don’t think

[Oliver_W]

No Oliver, I wouldn’t condone adults attacking children, we’re talking about adults here

All adults aren't equal, they were clearly much stronger than him and had no need to physically retaliate.

[Josy]

Lack of inhibition yes, which means they’re more likely to say how they feel or what’s on their mind, it wouldn’t create a thought that wasn’t already there I don’t thinkWell you would be wrong thinking that then because it actually does create thoughts that the person wouldnt normally have.

[user104658]

Lack of inhibition yes, which means they’re more likely to say how they feel or what’s on their mind, it wouldn’t create a thought that wasn’t already there I don’t think

:umm2: I know you're not saying that it would be justifiable for people to start punching elderly people with dementia "because they were clearly still racist beforehand". At the very least, draw the line there. Surely. :shocked:

[Ammi]

I have to ask something here Ammi, I'm afraid. If, in the context of school children, a child was racially abusing another child... would you then take no action if that child turned around and punched them in the face (hard enough to give them multiple contusions)?

Would you take no action if the other kid hit first?

Would you take no action, even if the kid being abusive was a known and persistent bully?

I'm hoping and assuming that the answer to all of those, is that physical violence is never the appropriate response. That defending yourself is OK if someone won't get off of you, for example, is OK but if someone hits you and runs away... you tell someone, you don't chase after them and hit them back.

And assuming all of those things (and I really do hope I'm right, that a teacher wouldn't ever justify children carrying out physical retaliation)..

WHY on earth would it be OK for grown adults to engage in unnecessary physical retaliation?

I'm not talking about empathy here; of course you might understand why a kid would hit back. I understand why the people on the bus were frustrated, upset, enraged and hit back. Empathising with why it happened is NOT the same thing as condoning it, and certainly not the same as encouraging it or advocating for it as an appropriate course of action.

Can we forgive these guys for being frustrated, hurt and lashing out? Absolutely... but should we be telling them (and others) that it was justified? In fact not even just justified - but the RIGHT thing to do?

I just can't imagine it.

I can't imagine that you'd be approached by a child saying that another child did something to them - even something awful - and the response would be "Oh you should have socked them one back, right in the side of the head, little Jimmy".


...you can ask, TS, obviously you can...but I’m not going to answer...because your thought processes are excluding something that I said early in the thread that I was considering alongside the hateful racial abuse...
....and something that some people on the bus had also said as we see../ has been reported also etc...I’ll leave a quote here...

..yeah...(...from the vid that we can see atm...)... the older guy did actively appear to pursue the physical, as well as his verbal abuse...so obviously never condoning violence....it would surely be a ‘self defence’ and a ‘was it reasonable force’, type thing...and it went out of shot a bit so hopefully the police could determine that...

[Liam-]

Well you would be wrong thinking that then because it actually does create thoughts that the person wouldnt normally have.

Ah well after some reading I was mistaken

:umm2: I know you're not saying that it would be justifiable for people to start punching elderly people with dementia "because they were clearly still racist beforehand". At the very least, draw the line there. Surely. :shocked:

If you know I wasn’t saying that then this post was entirely pointless

[reece(:]

And when we find out the old aged pensioner has altzheimers or another mental health disability which caused his outburst

Then what?
Just wondering why you are trying to come up with these what if scenarios to try and justify this man's racial abuse, hmm.
Sure, shout him down. Call him names back. That's as far as it should go.

Racial hate speech is not "name calling".

[Oliver_W]

Racial hate speech is not "name calling".

At its core, that's literally what it is.

If I was on a bus and someone called me a fag, I wouldn't care less. Maybe it would technically be homophobic hate speech, but it only hurts if you let it.

[Marsh.]

And when we find out the old aged pensioner has altzheimers or another mental health disability which caused his outburst

Then what?

If ifs and buts were candy and nuts we'd all have a merry Christmas.

[Niamh.]

If ifs and buts were candy and nuts we'd all have a merry Christmas.[emoji28]

[Marsh.]

At its core, that's literally what it is.

If I was on a bus and someone called me a fag, I wouldn't care less. Maybe it would technically be homophobic hate speech, but it only hurts if you let it.

It's not all about you. Understanding the world is about looking outside of your own experiences.

[Ammi]

If ifs and buts were candy and nuts we'd all have a merry Christmas.

...what if we all had a nut allergy, though...

[Marsh.]

...what if we all had a nut allergy, though...

Fight the nut?

[Ammi]

Fight the nut?

...you fight the nut...if you fall, I will cashew...:fan:...

[Oliver_W]

It's not all about you. Understanding the world is about looking outside of your own experiences.

Sure, but very few perspectives should hold words and violence at the same level.

[Marsh.]

Sure, but very few perspectives should hold words and violence at the same level.

Nobody said it should but judging the level of someone else's abuse off a low level abuse you think you can handle is a nonsensical comparison.

[Oliver_W]

Nobody said it should but judging the level of someone else's abuse off a low level abuse you think you can handle is a nonsensical comparison.

If he's man enough to slug out an old man, he's man enough to ignore nasty words.

[Marsh.]

If he's man enough to slug out an old man, he's man enough to ignore nasty words.

That wasn't the point I responded to. I responded to your claim that he should deal with racism because of a hypothetical scenario of a completely different situation involving yourself, which is not comparable.

Someone else's experience isn't void just because you live a completely different life.

[Oliver_W]

That wasn't the point I responded to. I responded to your claim that he should deal with racism because of a hypothetical scenario of a completely different situation involving yourself, which is not comparable.

Someone else's experience isn't void just because you live a completely different life.

I don't know what kind of life he leads, his life could be almost identical to mine :shrug:

[Jack_]

I watched both of the time stamps you gave and a good chunk of the rest. I do think the video is interesting and thought provoking though I'm not sure it's entirely relevant? It's talking about political violence. Hand on heart, do you think the incident in the OP video is an example of the type of political violence being discussed in that video?

No, but I don’t think it’s beyond the realms of possibility that this man has either directly or indirectly been exposed to and influenced by racist ideology. And while an old man sitting on a bus may not be “building fascism” per se, it’s this kind of insidious (and yet direct) racism which mustn’t be left unchallenged.

If I’m being honest, do I think punching him was necessary? Probably not. Do I understand why they did? Yes. Do I particularly care that’s the course of action they chose? No, not really. I shared the video more because I noticed the “all violence is bad and never acceptable” argument cropping up, and thought it was relevant to illustrate that that argument is founded on a lot of false equivalences. I think it’s an interesting topic in its own right.

[Crimson Dynamo]

If he's man enough to slug out an old man, he's man enough to ignore nasty words.

Let's face it they attacked because they knew he was old a weak. It was a cowardly attack.

[GiRTh]

As usual on this forum. :bored:

I love the way the onus is always on the black person to calm the situation. :bored:. If this man is going to walk around talking like that on the streets then he needs to know that quite a few people are going to object to what he's saying and those people will react in different ways. Violence is never the answer, but do we try and council this man if he is abusing us.? Do you really think counselling and re-education will help this man? The words he use make me think he's already quite far down a certain path.

I’m waiting for the – Maybe he was mortified when he went home and regretted his words. So many trying everything they can to defend him but talk like that and people are not going to like it; so maybe he should review his own approach to these situations.

[user104658]

As usual on this forum. :bored:



I love the way the onus is always on the black person to calm the situation. :bored:. If this man is going to walk around talking like that on the streets then he needs to know that quite a few people are going to object to what he's saying and those people will react in different ways. Violence is never the answer, but do we try and council this man if he is abusing us.? Do you really think counselling and re-education will help this man? The words he use make me think he's already quite far down a certain path.



I’m waiting for the – Maybe he was mortified when he went home and regretted his words. So many trying everything they can to defend him but talk like that and people are not going to like it; so maybe he should review his own approach to these situations.

You're right, let's hope he gets a brain bleed and dies eh. These guys definitely won't face charges because, after all, any reasonable judge would see that there was no real choice but to cave his skull in,it was unavoidable, and any reasonable person would have done the same.

:shrug:

Its not about giving a **** about an old racist man. It's about expecting or at least hoping for better from people regardless of the circumstances, or at least understanding that it wasn't the RIGHT course of action even if you can empathise with why it happened.

[GiRTh]

You're right, let's hope he gets a brain bleed and dies eh. These guys definitely won't face charges because, after all, any reasonable judge would see that there was no real choice but to cave his skull in,it was unavoidable, and any reasonable person would have done the same.

:shrug:

Its not about giving a **** about an old racist man. It's about expecting or at least hoping for better from people regardless of the circumstances, or at least understanding that it wasn't the RIGHT course of action even if you can empathise with why it happened.Your first paragraph is not what I said at all and I'm a bit surprised by you TBH TS you've taken it that way. What if I came up to Scotland and started chatting sh*t in Glasgow pubs? How long would I last and could I claim that those nasty people shouldnt resort to violence? The argument would be made that I was quite aware of what I was saying and how it would be construed.

Second paragraph is laughable. How long you been on this forum? 'Hoping for better from people' :joker:

[Oliver_W]

As usual on this forum. :bored:

I love the way the onus is always on the black person to calm the situation. :bored:.

The onus is on every person to control themselves and not throw their fists around.

[GiRTh]

The onus is on every person to control themselves and not throw their fists around.The onus on people is to conduct themselves with dignity at all times. DIdnt see much dignity from this man

[Oliver_W]

The onus on people is to conduct themselves with dignity at all times. DIdnt see much dignity from this man

Doesn't mean others need to sink to his level.

[GiRTh]

Doesn't mean others need to sink to his level.And when he sinks to that level different people will react in different ways.

[Oliver_W]

And when he sinks to that level different people will react in different ways.

Sure, but that doesn't excuse violence.

[Crimson Dynamo]

As usual on this forum. :bored:

I love the way the onus is always on the black person to calm the situation. :bored:. If this man is going to walk around talking like that on the streets then he needs to know that quite a few people are going to object to what he's saying and those people will react in different ways. Violence is never the answer, but do we try and council this man if he is abusing us.? Do you really think counselling and re-education will help this man? The words he use make me think he's already quite far down a certain path.

I’m waiting for the – Maybe he was mortified when he went home and regretted his words. So many trying everything they can to defend him but talk like that and people are not going to like it; so maybe he should review his own approach to these situations.

Jesus said..turn the other cheek

Wise words

[bots]

Jesus said..turn the other cheek

Wise words


LT quoting Jesus .... i've seen it all now :shocked:

[Crimson Dynamo]

LT quoting Jesus .... i've seen it all now :shocked:

It's when I quote slim that we know we are in the End Days

:hehe:

[user104658]

Your first paragraph is not what I said at all and I'm a bit surprised by you TBH TS you've taken it that way. What if I came up to Scotland and started chatting sh*t in Glasgow pubs? How long would I last

Not long

and could I claim that those nasty people shouldnt resort to violence?

Yes. That is really the entire point.

The onus on people is to conduct themselves with dignity at all times. DIdnt see much dignity from this man

Exactly! The onus is on people to control themselves at all times. Not "Until someone else starts being a prick, then it all goes out the window and you can start throwing punches and it's fine". :shrug:.

[GiRTh]

Exactly! The onus is on people to control themselves at all times. Not "Until someone else starts being a prick, then it all goes out the window and you can start throwing punches and it's fine". :shrug:.And I suppose that would include not talking sh*t in front of people who may, if a person doesnt express themselves in a polite and respectful manner, take offence and in some cases, quite serious offence.

[Oliver_W]

And I suppose that would include not talking sh*t in front of people who may, if a person doesnt express themselves in a polite and respectful manner, take offence and in some cases, quite serious offence.

Taking "serious offence" is no more a justification for violence than falling wildly in unrequited love is an excuse for rape. Feelings don't excuse actions.

[GiRTh]

Taking "serious offence" is no more a justification for violence than falling wildly in unrequited love is an excuse for rape. Feelings don't excuse actions.People react differently. :shrug: We're not trained to deal with these situations. However, it would be nice if these situations never occured in the first place. :thumbs:

[user104658]

And I suppose that would include not talking sh*t in front of people who may, if a person doesnt express themselves in a polite and respectful manner, take offence and in some cases, quite serious offence.

Yes but I haven't at any point tried to defend the racist old guy. Him being a piece of **** doesn't justify responding violently. Whether he was "asking for it", "should have expected it", even "deserved it" - all totally irrelevant to my opinion on whether they should have actually done it.

[Marsh.]

As usual on this forum. :bored:


Ikr. Contrary Mary always comes into these threads to come up with a myriad of excuses for racist people.

[Kizzy]

If anyone was looking for an example of ad hominem :joker:



Ahh so you're using frustration as a justification for an onlooker advocating violence, rather than frustration of those involved being used as a reason for advocating violence.

I can see the difference but I still don't agree with you. Honestly this thread is an eye opener although I'm not sure why at this point. "How DARE you say that advocating retaliatory violence isn't a good idea!!". It could only be 2020.

Never been guilty of that have you TS?
You're projecting now I never said that advocating retaliatory violence was a good idea at all... But I can get my head around the reasons why others may find being in that situation more challenging, and not just cos they is fick.

[Black Dagger]

YASSSS SIS beat his ass x

[user104658]

But I can get my head around the reasons why others may find being in that situation more challenging, and not just cos they is fick.

I've said (repeatedly) that I understand why the men involved were so angry and frustrated and I empathise with the reasons they were lashing out. But there are people on this thread not just saying they understand why it happened, or that it was inevitable that something like that would happen - they're arguing that it was the right course of action. Applauding it. That's what I find immature and/or "fick". The people in this thread were not there, they don't have the defense of it being "in the heat of the moment", their reasoned response is that responding with violence was the right thing to do. Frankly if this was 5 years ago, I'd be flabbergasted that I have to defend thinking that that sentiment is wrong and stupid. Not any more, sadly.

[Ammi]

...anyways, last few thoughts ..(...for the moment...)...it isn’t reasoned or relevant to ask...’what would you do...’...on a personal level...because it is obviously very personal and emotional and not reasoned at all to have that asked of you in discussions such as this...and there has also very much been a repeated vein of thought of looking at the older guy possibly becoming physical first, which isn’t for me as clear as maybe it is for some...’ I don’t condone but, though.../...this isn’t all completely clear..’...type thing...


...’Always’ and ‘Never’ are two of the most powerful words and the middle ground and also reasoned ground, imo...would be ‘human’ ...and that must have a ‘right’ to that as well...Jack, I think...always adds very interesting discussions and thoughts to stories like this, which are topics in their own right, as he said...


“all violence is bad and never acceptable” argument cropping up, and thought it was relevant to illustrate that that argument is founded on a lot of false equivalences. I think it’s an interesting topic in its own right.”

[caprimint]

The reaction should never be violence, filming and reporting him was enough.
Exactly, people never learn

[The Slim Reaper]

It's when I quote slim that we know we are in the End Days

:hehe:

Jesus said..turn the other cheek

Wise words

https://media1.tenor.com/images/2b6852f901db261f17a232d5abf6715e/tenor.gif?itemid=16146153

[caprimint]

If he's man enough to slug out an old man, he's man enough to ignore nasty words.
Right? It's so tragic that people's first thoughts are to be violent because they can't control themselves. It's a massive problem

[Niamh.]

Right? It's so tragic that people's first thoughts are to be violent because they can't control themselves. It's a massive problem

tbf judging by the video, that wasn't actually the men's first thoughts, they became violent not after the verbal insults but after the man made a swing for them, not saying I think that was the right thing to do, clearly the man wasn't ever going to be a real physical threat to them, but there was a fair bit of provocation from him before they reacted that way

[Crimson Dynamo]

takes verbal assault, catches punch, no violence - lesson learned

Qv424Q7neKs

[caprimint]

I can't imagine that you'd be approached by a child saying that another child did something to them - even something awful - and the response would be "Oh you should have socked them one back, right in the side of the head, little Jimmy".
:joker:

[Livia]

Provocation is not a defence for assault.

[Niamh.]

Provocation is not a defence for assault.

I didn't say it was?

*If that was aimed at me

[Livia]

I didn't say it was?

*If that was aimed at me

It wasn't aimed particularly at you, but at everyone who said they were provoked.

[Niamh.]

It wasn't aimed particularly at you, but at everyone who said they were provoked.

Well, my last post where I used that word was just pointing out that violence wasn't their first thought(judging by the video), I wasn't defending their "right" to be violent, just saying there was more provocation than what was being made out in the post I quoted.

Again, I'm not for a minute saying that how they reacted was the right thing to do but I can see why they got so angry as well

[Livia]

Yes, I can see why they got angry. And the old man was out of order. But I abhor the support they seem to have got on here for beating up an old man. And that is not aimed at you.

[Tom4784]

I wonder if people would be so defensive of the racist if he was black and the two guys were white.

If you're going to abuse someone and then try to hit them, you're provoking a fight. None of this wouldn't happen if he had kept his racist mouth shut.

[user104658]

I wonder if people would be so defensive of the racist if he was black and the two guys were white.

No one (really) has been defensive of the racist rather than critical of resorting to unnecessary physical retaliation, and it would be exactly the same no matter who was involved.

[Niamh.]

If I'm being totally honest I think I'd be more inclined to swing a little more towards it being an OK thing to do had he been a younger, stronger looking man, rather than an older, frail looking guy. Not sure if that's being a bit biased or maybe then it would seem more like self defense because there would have been more of a threat (psychically) to the two men? hhmmm

[user104658]

If I'm being totally honest I think I'd be more inclined to swing a little more towards it being an OK thing to do had he been a younger, stronger looking man, rather than an older, frail looking guy. Not sure if that's being a bit biased or maybe then it would seem more like self defense because there would have been more of a threat (psychically) to the two men? hhmmm

I agree and not just because of him being more of a threat, I think people (in not wanting to offend older people maybe?) really underestimate how much the human body declines past 60. You can see it quite visibly in this video - massive contusion appears on the side of his head in minutes, from a punch that wasn't even that hard, and would most likely not even put a mark on a 40 year old. The bones and blood vessels of a 70 year old are not robust. If you punch a 40 year old you're probably going to cause a black eye or a bust nose (note: you CAN still do a lot more damage accidentally so it's st5ill not a great idea). If you punch a 70 year old in the head... you're at serious risk of causing a skull fracture or bleed on the brain. There's a reason that "having a fall" is a much more serious thing when you're past a certain age.

Again even if you want to take the old guy out of the equation completely in terms of caring what happens: There isn't a judge in the world who is going to hear that a 30 year old punched a 70 year old in the head and caused a brain haemorrhage that resulted in death - for ANY reason other than to stop a real, immediate, active threat to themselves or others - and not have it result in the person throwing the punch going to jail on a manslaughter charge. Not worth it, stupid idea, stupid and reckless action.

And no, before we start pretending again, this weak-arse 70 year old bloke throwing his boney little hands around does not constitute a real or active threat.

[bots]

everyone appears to want a more tolerant society, but that works both ways. Tolerance means you don't beat the **** out of someone if they say some bad things. Equally of course, people should be more respectful of everyone around them

[Kizzy]

I've said (repeatedly) that I understand why the men involved were so angry and frustrated and I empathise with the reasons they were lashing out. But there are people on this thread not just saying they understand why it happened, or that it was inevitable that something like that would happen - they're arguing that it was the right course of action. Applauding it. That's what I find immature and/or "fick". The people in this thread were not there, they don't have the defense of it being "in the heat of the moment", their reasoned response is that responding with violence was the right thing to do. Frankly if this was 5 years ago, I'd be flabbergasted that I have to defend thinking that that sentiment is wrong and stupid. Not any more, sadly.

You are still not getting it... the reason (potentially) may be due to not a reasoned response but learned behaviour, when faced with an aggressive challenge and fight or flight kicks in , who are we to say that someone's response is to fight, It's innate isn't it?

I may be wrong it's just a theory that the gay men in the thread feel the same way as they have been in similar threatening situations.

[user104658]

You are still not getting it... the reason (potentially) may be due to not a reasoned response but learned behaviour, when faced with an aggressive challenge and fight or flight kicks in , who are we to say that someone's response is to fight, It's innate isn't it?

I may be wrong it's just a theory that the gay men in the thread feel the same way as they have been in similar threatening situations.

Again, though, empathising with them isn't the problem, and you can empathise with them and say that you understand why it happened, without stating that they did the right thing. Even if you're saying that these are the things that make them more inclined to think that they DID do the right thing... all your saying is that their objectivity is hampered by their own experiences. Which is also totally fine - but absolutely NOT a reason for anyone who can see that this action was wrong, reckless and dangerous to shy away from saying so. What sort of world are we looking for here, really? "I can understand why you think this was right, so I'm not going to discuss why I think it was not."?

[Kizzy]

I agree and not just because of him being more of a threat, I think people (in not wanting to offend older people maybe?) really underestimate how much the human body declines past 60. You can see it quite visibly in this video - massive contusion appears on the side of his head in minutes, from a punch that wasn't even that hard, and would most likely not even put a mark on a 40 year old. The bones and blood vessels of a 70 year old are not robust. If you punch a 40 year old you're probably going to cause a black eye or a bust nose (note: you CAN still do a lot more damage accidentally so it's st5ill not a great idea). If you punch a 70 year old in the head... you're at serious risk of causing a skull fracture or bleed on the brain. There's a reason that "having a fall" is a much more serious thing when you're past a certain age.

Again even if you want to take the old guy out of the equation completely in terms of caring what happens: There isn't a judge in the world who is going to hear that a 30 year old punched a 70 year old in the head and caused a brain haemorrhage that resulted in death - for ANY reason other than to stop a real, immediate, active threat to themselves or others - and not have it result in the person throwing the punch going to jail on a manslaughter charge. Not worth it, stupid idea, stupid and reckless action.

And no, before we start pretending again, this weak-arse 70 year old bloke throwing his boney little hands around does not constitute a real or active threat.
Right ...so you've changed your stance now from violence is never an answer to it us if it's a fair fight?...pfft.

[user104658]

Right ...so you've changed your stance now from violence is never an answer to it us if it's a fair fight?...pfft.

No and I'd be interested to see if you can point out where I said that (which you won't be able to, because I didn't).

[Kizzy]

everyone appears to want a more tolerant society, but that works both ways. Tolerance means you don't beat the **** out of someone if they say some bad things. Equally of course, people should be more respectful of everyone around them

How much are people expected to tolerate? ...sounds like victim blaming.

[Kizzy]

Again, though, empathising with them isn't the problem, and you can empathise with them and say that you understand why it happened, without stating that they did the right thing. Even if you're saying that these are the things that make them more inclined to think that they DID do the right thing... all your saying is that their objectivity is hampered by their own experiences. Which is also totally fine - but absolutely NOT a reason for anyone who can see that this action was wrong, reckless and dangerous to shy away from saying so. What sort of world are we looking for here, really? "I can understand why you think this was right, so I'm not going to discuss why I think it was not."?


Right so you've taken on board the difference in life experience being a factor. However, that was not your explanation for the thought process, it was age.

You cited the reason many agreed with the action was predominantly due to their maturity. All I argued against was that point.

[arista]

1303969056932982785

[Niamh.]

I don't really see what "woke culture" has to do with this particular incident tbf Arista

[Ammi]

...I also find ‘woke culture’ interesting...it’s not a term or label that I really ever use or have used tbh...but so far as I can ‘woke it out’...pun intended, yes...so much was blamed as being a reactionary to PC...’PC caused this’ etc...’if society hadn’t become so PC’...‘it’s the PC crowd’...etc, etc...now those anti PC and anti labelling people are now labelling ‘woke’...is that how it works...this is what happens with a mindset of labelling so we’ll fix that and label right back...

[Kizzy]

1303969056932982785

If you don't think before you speak then you have the right to be as offensive as you like!

: idc:

[user104658]

...I also find ‘wok culture’ interesting...


I know you meant to say woke but this has made me really hungry :laugh:

[Ammi]

I know you meant to say woke but this has made me really hungry :laugh:

...you say woke, I say wok...let’s call the whole thing off...:laugh:..

[Crimson Dynamo]

I know you meant to say woke but this has made me really hungry :laugh:

I like a good orange wok my self

[Marsh.]

1303969056932982785

The old man was being creative was he, arista?

[Glenn.]

You can imagine the magnitude of surprise I felt when I came in here and see the racist pig is being painted the victim.

[Oliver_W]

You can imagine the magnitude of surprise I felt when I came in here and see the racist pig is being painted the victim.

There's such a thing as there being no good people in a given situation. He shouldn't have been saying those things, and the man shouldn't have punched him.

Who do you think came off worse - the one who heard some mean words, or the one with the broken face?

[Glenn.]

The one with the broken face deserved a broken face. The ones who ‘heard some mean words’ about them didn’t

[Oliver_W]

The one with the broken face deserved a broken face. The ones who ‘heard some mean words’ about them didn’t

No-one "deserves" anything. The black guy didn't earn the insults, but he also didn't earn the right to punch anyone.

[Tom4784]

If you start ****, you better be ready to deal with ****. If the man kept his racist mouth shut and didn't try to hit someone after goading them, then this wouldn't have happened.

You can't provoke a response and then complain when someone retaliates.

[Glenn.]

No-one "deserves" anything. The black guy didn't earn the insults, but he also didn't earn the right to punch anyone.

Sure

[GiRTh]

If you start ****, you better be ready to deal with ****. If the man kept his racist mouth shut and didn't try to hit someone after goading them, then this wouldn't have happened.

You can't provoke a response and then complain when someone retaliates.:clap2:

[Crimson Dynamo]

If you start ****, you better be ready to deal with ****. If the man kept his racist mouth shut and didn't try to hit someone after goading them, then this wouldn't have happened.

You can't provoke a response and then complain when someone retaliates.

This isnt the wild west

:facepalm:

[Glenn.]

No it’s 2020

[Oliver_W]

It's shocking how people here seem to have such low expectations of black people - I think they're as capable of controlling themselves as anyone else, but listening to people here you'd think it's normal to expect them to resort to violence...

[arista]

The old man was being creative was he, arista?

No The Old fella on post one
is Vile.


I just posted that clip has a good ending.

[Liam-]

What’s shocking is people expecting black people to sit and listen to racist abuse thrown at them and turn the other cheek to keep the peace

[Crimson Dynamo]

It's shocking how people here seem to have such low expectations of black people - I think they're as capable of controlling themselves as anyone else, but listening to people here you'd think it's normal to expect them to resort to violence...

that is a good point Oliver

[arista]

I don't really see what "woke culture" has to do with this particular incident tbf Arista


Yes its not really connected

The Old fella is Vile.
He would not even know what the woke word ,is.

[Oliver_W]

What’s shocking is people expecting black people to sit and listen to racist abuse thrown at them and turn the other cheek to keep the peace

So is violence the answer instead of shouting the racist down or walking away?

[Liam-]

So is violence the answer instead of shouting the racist down or walking away?

If it’s just words then yeah the best thing they could do is retort with words, but as soon as someone swings on them, then it’s fair game, they didn’t just react to words, no matter how many times you try to frame it that way

[Liam-]

‘Why can’t they just sit and let people racially abuse them in public? They’re so unreasonable! Just let us be racist fgs’

[Crimson Dynamo]

Martin Luther KIng


"Prior to reading Gandhi, I had about concluded that the ethics of Jesus were
only effective in individual relationships. The "turn the other cheek" philosophy
and the "love your enemies" philosophy were only valid, I felt, when individuals
were in conflict with other individuals; when racial groups and nations were in
conflict, a more realistic approach seemed necessary. But after reading Gandhi,
I saw how utterly mistaken I was.

Gandhi was probably the first person in history to lift the love ethic of Jesus
above mere interaction between individuals to a powerful and effective social
force on a large scale. Love for Gandhi was a potent instrument for social and
collective transformation. It was in this Gandhian emphasis on love and
nonviolence that I discovered the method for social reform that I had been
seeking."


how soon wise words have been forgotten

[Oliver_W]

‘Why can’t they just sit and let people racially abuse them in public? They’re so unreasonable! Just let us be racist fgs’

"An old whose punch you probably wouldn't even notice is a physical match for someone about a hundredth of his age, and therefore going full on Chris Brown is justified"

[GiRTh]

It's shocking how people here seem to have such low expectations of black people - I think they're as capable of controlling themselves as anyone else, but listening to people here you'd think it's normal to expect them to resort to violence...Who's said anything like thatt?? So when I pointed out that if you go into any area and start acting provocatively an incident might occur; was that making a statement about all people who are from that area?. Your assumptions are quite scary at times TBH. Speak to anyone in an provacative manner and you'll probably get a reaction. Race doesnt come into it.

[Liam-]

"An old whose punch you probably wouldn't even notice is a physical match for someone about a hundredth of his age, and therefore going full on Chris Brown is justified"

A grown up violent racist is a violent racist, don’t throw a punch at a random person and expect them not to hit you back just because you’re old

[The Slim Reaper]

Martin Luther KIng


"Prior to reading Gandhi, I had about concluded that the ethics of Jesus were
only effective in individual relationships. The "turn the other cheek" philosophy
and the "love your enemies" philosophy were only valid, I felt, when individuals
were in conflict with other individuals; when racial groups and nations were in
conflict, a more realistic approach seemed necessary. But after reading Gandhi,
I saw how utterly mistaken I was.

Gandhi was probably the first person in history to lift the love ethic of Jesus
above mere interaction between individuals to a powerful and effective social
force on a large scale. Love for Gandhi was a potent instrument for social and
collective transformation. It was in this Gandhian emphasis on love and
nonviolence that I discovered the method for social reform that I had been
seeking."


how soon wise words have been forgotten

Just remind me how white supremacists rewarded Dr King, for all his talk of peace and integration?

[user104658]

You can imagine the magnitude of surprise I felt when I came in here and see the racist pig is being painted the victim.

The one with the broken face deserved a broken face. The ones who ‘heard some mean words’ about them didn’t

If you start ****, you better be ready to deal with ****. If the man kept his racist mouth shut and didn't try to hit someone after goading them, then this wouldn't have happened.

:clap2:

it’s 2020


Well with thoughtful and nuanced discussion like this, who could argue? Good job chaps you did it, everything will be better now, and lessons have been learned all round. Personally I just hadn't looked at it that way before, but you've really opened my eyes.

[user104658]

Just remind me how white supremacists rewarded Dr King, for all his talk of peace and integration?

You're right Slim - did he really think that sort of namby-pamby rhetoric would work? LOL what an absolute idiot! What an absolute dope! So naive, really sad. If he'd done the sensible thing and gone out cracking skulls, the civil rights movement would be LIGHTYEARS ahead of where it is now am I right?

[Liam-]

Why are you so agitated by people not agreeing with you on this?

[The Slim Reaper]

You're right Slim - did he really think that sort of namby-pamby rhetoric would work? LOL what an absolute idiot! What an absolute dope! So naive, really sad. If he'd done the sensible thing and gone out cracking skulls, the civil rights movement would be LIGHTYEARS ahead of where it is now am I right?

I hope this post is snarkily aimed at other people, because you've extrapolated a hell of a lot if that's a genuine reply to my post.

Also worth noting, that even as MLK was spreading his message of peace, he was accused of causing rioting and violence.

[user104658]

Why are you so agitated by people not agreeing with you on this?

I have no problem with reasoned disagreement, I get tired of bothering to think about a topic only to be met with a wall of boring dogma.

[user104658]

I hope this post is snarkily aimed at other people, because you've extrapolated a hell of a lot if that's a genuine reply to my post.

Also worth noting, that even as MLK was spreading his message of peace, he was accused of causing rioting and violence.

My point was that MLK was well aware of how he was likely to be rewarded by white supremacists for his words and actions, and yet he continued to fight using words instead of fists, which is why he's remembered as great. But here we are in a thread in 2020 arguing over whether or not it's OK (or apparently even desirable) for a racist old man to get his head bashed in on a bus. Depressing as **** really.

[The Slim Reaper]

My point was that MLK was well aware of how he was likely to be rewarded by white supremacists for his words and actions, and yet he continued to fight using words instead of fists, which is why he's remembered as great. But here we are in a thread in 2020 arguing over whether or not it's OK (or apparently even desirable) for a racist old man to get his head bashed in on a bus. Depressing as **** really.

I actually agree with your stance in this thread. But lets be honest, do you think the post I replied to was a genuine attempt to contribute? And that's why it received the flippant reply I gave it.

[Crimson Dynamo]

My point was that MLK was well aware of how he was likely to be rewarded by white supremacists for his words and actions, and yet he continued to fight using words instead of fists, which is why he's remembered as great. But here we are in a thread in 2020 arguing over whether or not it's OK (or apparently even desirable) for a racist old man to get his head bashed in on a bus. Depressing as **** really.

Spot on

:clap1:

[user104658]

I actually agree with your stance in this thread. But lets be honest, do you think the post I replied to was a genuine attempt to contribute? And that's why it received the flippant reply I gave it.

I can't tell at this point, I've gotten a bit on edge with this one, should probably have stepped off a few hours ago :umm2:.

[Liam-]

*A violent, racist old man

[Crimson Dynamo]

about as violent as Theresa may :joker:

[user104658]

*A violent, racist old man

Sure but as I said earlier, I'm just not accepting that an old man throwing his boney little hands at adult men is a realistic threat... it's just nonsense. I also don't believe for a second that the retaliation was because of the physical attack, it was because of what he was saying. At least I actually HOPE so because like I've said, I understand why the things he was saying could cause someone to lose their cool and lash out... if it wasn't for the words that had been spoken there'd be no justification AT ALL for a large young adult male "hitting back" at a 70 year old throwing some feeble punches.

[GiRTh]

My point was that MLK was well aware of how he was likely to be rewarded by white supremacists for his words and actions, and yet he continued to fight using words instead of fists, which is why he's remembered as great. But here we are in a thread in 2020 arguing over whether or not it's OK (or apparently even desirable) for a racist old man to get his head bashed in on a bus. Depressing as **** really.MLK was not the only civil rights leader around at the time. Tell us your thoughts on Malcolm X and the black panthers seeing as you're so disapproving of the comments made that you're seriously attempting to invoke MLK. With MLK all three were considered terrorists. All three are revered in the black community.

I said in my original post that violence is not the answer but I get that when a person starts acting provocatively and violently they're the one who need to address ther behaviour and not so much the person who reacts to their provocation.

[Liam-]

The only thing they did wrong was the second guy joining in, that was probably too much

[Tom4784]

It's shocking how people here seem to have such low expectations of black people - I think they're as capable of controlling themselves as anyone else, but listening to people here you'd think it's normal to expect them to resort to violence...

Imagine the mental gymnastics required to try to make people who think the racist was in the wrong somehow racist themselves.

[Oliver_W]

Imagine the mental gymnastics required to try to make people who think the racist was in the wrong somehow racist themselves.

Both the racist and the puncher were in the wrong.

[Tom4784]

Both the racist and the puncher were in the wrong.

But if the racist didn't do what he did, nothing would have happened. If you provoke a situation and turn violent, you can't act like a victim if it goes south.

The racist gets the lion's share of the blame because if it weren't for him, we wouldn't be talking about this because it wouldn't have happened.

[Liam-]

Both the racist and the puncher were in the wrong.

Nah

[Oliver_W]

But if the racist didn't do what he did, nothing would have happened. If you provoke a situation and turn violent, you can't act like a victim if it goes south.

The racist gets the lion's share of the blame because if it weren't for him, we wouldn't be talking about this because it wouldn't have happened.

Don't victim blame, if a woman goes out in a short skirt and takes a shortcut through a bad neighbourhood, it's still not her fault if she gets raped.

The blame for him getting punched goes to the man who punched him.

[Liam-]

That is... possibly the worst analogy or comparison I’ve seen on here. Wild.

[Oliver_W]

That is... possibly the worst analogy or comparison I’ve seen on here. Wild.

Says someone who thinks using words is worse than using fists.

[Liam-]

Says someone who thinks using words is worse than using fists.

You’ve just compared a volatile racist to a rape victim, either you actually don’t see the glaring difference or you’re just sensationalising to get a reaction, either way, it’s foul

[Ramsay]

That is... possibly the worst analogy or comparison I’ve seen on here. Wild.

Insane

[Oliver_W]

You’ve just compared a volatile racist to a rape victim, either you actually don’t see the glaring difference or you’re just sensationalising to get a reaction, either way, it’s foul

I've compared a victim of assault to a victim of rape. One used provocative words, one wears "provocative" clothes.

[Liam-]

Yeah, you’re looking for a reaction, not a good look Oliver

[Niamh.]

Don't victim blame, if a woman goes out in a short skirt and takes a shortcut through a bad neighbourhood, it's still not her fault if she gets raped.



The blame for him getting punched goes to the man who punched him.Thats a really really horrific comparison

[Fetch The Bolt Cutters]

Don't victim blame, if a woman goes out in a short skirt and takes a shortcut through a bad neighbourhood, it's still not her fault if she gets raped.

The blame for him getting punched goes to the man who punched him.

:umm2:

[Fetch The Bolt Cutters]

Ban

[Tom4784]

Don't victim blame, if a woman goes out in a short skirt and takes a shortcut through a bad neighbourhood, it's still not her fault if she gets raped.

The blame for him getting punched goes to the man who punched him.

Did you just try to compare a racist man getting violent with someone else and getting punched for it... to a woman getting raped?

Do you think that racially abusing someone and swinging at them is akin to a woman inviting sexual assault if she wears a short skirt?

A woman going out an about is not provoking someone to attack her because of her outfit choice, it's not comparable to a man racially abusing someone and then trying to hit them. The man is not a victim here, but the woman in your comparison is. It's just quite an insane comparison to make. You're literally comparing a man starting a fight to a woman being raped and calling them both victims when the situations couldn't be more different. I'm actually kind of stunned, I've seen a lot of bad comparisons but that one might take the cake.

[Tom4784]

I've compared a victim of assault to a victim of rape. One used provocative words, one wears "provocative" clothes.

Racially abusing someone is as provocative as a woman going about her day in a short skirt?

Have I hit my head and ended up in the 50's in a comatose fever dream?

[Kizzy]

Well with thoughtful and nuanced discussion like this, who could argue? Good job chaps you did it, everything will be better now, and lessons have been learned all round. Personally I just hadn't looked at it that way before, but you've really opened my eyes.

And thanks to the white man to school black men on how to react to being called a monkey.

[Marsh.]

Don't victim blame, if a woman goes out in a short skirt and takes a shortcut through a bad neighbourhood, it's still not her fault if she gets raped.

The blame for him getting punched goes to the man who punched him.

:umm2:

[Glenn.]

Don't victim blame, if a woman goes out in a short skirt and takes a shortcut through a bad neighbourhood, it's still not her fault if she gets raped.

The blame for him getting punched goes to the man who punched him.

I’m sorry what?

I think we should just end the discussion here if this is how far you’ve come.

[Oliver_W]

Okay I take that comment back, it was too extreme of a comparative example, and stupid.

But it's still victim blaming to suggest the old man deserved or was asking for the violence he received.

[Marsh.]

It may be a bit strong to say he "deserved" it but, technically, he was asking for it. You don't get aggressive and start throwing your hands around if you're not 'asking' for a fight.

[Oliver_W]

It may be a bit strong to say he "deserved" it but, technically, he was asking for it. You don't get aggressive and start throwing your hands around if you're not 'asking' for a fight.

Sure, I subscribe to the "play stupid games, win stupid prizes" philosophy :joker: I agree he was technically asking for it, and bit off more than he could chew.

[Moniqua]

fook y'all

[Moniqua]

bunch of facists!

[Swan]

fook y'all

bunch of facists!

Hard to argue with that.

[thesheriff443]

You can’t have mob justice.

If you truly want the world to be a better place every one should be treated the same for rewards and punishment.

[Swan]

You can’t have mob justice.

If you truly want the world to be a better place every one should be treated the same for rewards and punishment.

Logic, lol.

[Glenn.]

Okay I take that comment back, it was too extreme of a comparative example, and stupid.

But it's still victim blaming to suggest the old man deserved or was asking for the violence he received.

I mean that’s great but he did ask for by throwing the first punch. His stupid racist arse violently escalated it.

[Jigs]

Okay I take that comment back, it was too extreme of a comparative example, and stupid.

But it's still victim blaming to suggest the old man deserved or was asking for the violence he received.

Surely the victim is the person who is being racially abused in the first place. Without the old guy mouthing off there is no story. He tried to victimize someone for the colour of the skin, he himself only became a victim after the fact.