Caitlyn Jenner opposes trans girls in women's sports as unfair

[Niamh.]

Glad she's speaking up as a former elite athlete and transwoman

https://twitter.com/Caitlyn_Jenner/status/1388585005199228928?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 1, 2021</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Caitlyn Jenner, candidate for California governor and former Olympic gold medallist, says she opposes trans girls participating in women's sports.

Ms Jenner, who came out as a trans woman in 2015, told a reporter: "It just isn't fair. And we have to protect girls' sports in our schools."

The Republican candidate for governor gave what appeared to be an impromptu interview to the TMZ website.

A number of US states are considering a ban on trans girls in women's sports.

Mississippi signed such a ban into law in March, although it is expected to face appeals. The Human Rights Campaign - the largest LGBT advocacy group in the US - says some 17 other states are considering similar legislation.


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Caitlyn Jenner was one of the US's most successful athletes in the decathlon during the 1970s and won gold in the Montreal Olympics in 1976.

In recent years, she has been a household name thanks to her involvement in the hit reality show Keeping Up with the Kardashians. Before transitioning, she was married to Kris Jenner and the pair have two daughters, Kendall and Kylie.

Ms Jenner, who has been described as the highest-profile American to come out as transgender, was asked for her opinion on the hot-button issue of trans athletes while out walking her dog to get a coffee.

"This is a question of fairness," she said. "That's why I oppose biological boys who are trans competing in girls' sports in school. It just isn't fair. And we have to protect girls' sports in our schools."

Ms Jenner then took to Twitter to reiterate her stance.

Trans athletes face 'huge' equality fight
Are trans women really a 'threat' to female sport?
The 71-year-old announced her bid to run as a Republican in the Democratic stronghold state of California two weeks ago.

Confirmation of a recall election is expected after a petition against current Governor Gavin Newsom, a Democrat, reached the number required to trigger a vote. Voters would be asked if they want Mr Newsom to stay or another candidate to take on the job.

Ms Jenner's views on trans athletes put her at odds with many activists in the trans community, who argue that legislation targeting trans children is dangerous and discriminatory.

On Friday, another transgender celebrity, Elliot Page, criticised the moves to ban transgender athletes from competing in girls' sports teams in some states.

[Crimson Dynamo]

i mean its basic common sense

i cant imagine anyone would disagree

[Cherie]

saw this yesterday, good to hear this from someone in the community, and also someone who has competed at Olympic level :clap1:

[Oliver_W]

Male people outperform female people in sports, so of course it's unfair to allow transwomen to compete against women.

[user104658]

I think part of what I don't understand with the idea that it SHOULD be open to everyone is... ... well ... that's just not how sports work anyway? Like the idea is that it's "unfair" for a transwoman not to be able to compete in a sport she likes because of something that's beyond her control at birth.

BUT that's inherent to sports? You want to be a professional gymnast but you have wideset hips? Tough **** you can't. I want to be a jockey but I'm 6'2? Nope sorry pal it's not happening.

etc.

There are all sort of barriers to sports, so I don't think another "Well I'd like to do _____, but..." is a huge problem or a huge discrimination.

[UserSince2005]

Olympics should move to gender neutral for each and every sport.

If women want to complete with special allowances then their should be a women only events in the Paralympics for them.

[Niamh.]

Olympics should move to gender neutral for each and every sport.

If women want to complete with special allowances then their should be a women only events in the Paralympics for them.

And boxing should get rid of weight classes, feather weights should train harder if they want to be able to compete with heavy weights!

[UserSince2005]

And boxing should get rid of weight classes, feather weights should train harder if they want to be able to compete with heavy weights!

exactly.

We want to see the best of the best not people getting meddles because they are the best of a bad bunch.

[Niamh.]

exactly.

We want to see the best of the best not people getting meddles because they are the best of a bad bunch.

:laugh2: OK

[user104658]

Olympics should move to gender neutral for each and every sport.

If women want to complete with special allowances then their should be a women only events in the Paralympics for them.

To be fair I have suggested in the past that it would be amazing if they just removed all rules. Performance enhancing drugs? Gobble them down! Robotic enhancements? Hell yeah as many as you want!!

Just people popped full of roids and technology running at 50mph, throwing things hundreds of metres, and knocking lumps off each other.

Hugely unethical? Sure. But it would be a ratings HIT.

[user104658]

exactly.

We want to see the best of the best not people getting meddles because they are the best of a bad bunch.

Meh. With combat sports they're practically different sports. Lower weight classes would be absolutely flattened in one hit by a super-heavyweight ... but super-heavyweight fight classes are nowhere near as entertaining as the speedier classes.

[Beso]

Where will they compete then?

[Niamh.]

Where will they compete then?

within their own sex category

[Livia]

I'm really glad that Caitlin Jenner spoke out on this. She's a respected member of the Trans community and an ex athlete. I'd say that should be the final word on the matter.

[Mitchell]

I'm really glad that Caitlin Jenner spoke out on this. She's a respected member of the Trans community and an ex athlete. I'd say that should be the final word on the matter.

I really wouldn’t go that far, ex athlete and trans woman yes, but respected within the LGBTQ+ community, definitely not.

[Oliver_W]

I'm really glad that Caitlin Jenner spoke out on this. She's a respected member of the Trans community and an ex athlete. I'd say that should be the final word on the matter.
Yes but don't forget ... Hang on ..
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/2YQDLPfu8Jz73ovYBL9WhdsHJS8HM5wS0pn7ObhWfl1MCUHwBr OQsDgJcmc0XpW07CN9uFKrHh8nXRME53m0=s320-l65
Caitlyn is a rich white privileged male celebrity so only has so much sway...

I really wouldn’t go that far, ex athlete and transwoman yes, but respected within the LGBTQ+ community, definitely not.
Maybe the standard LGBT "community", it's the Q+ who seem to have a problem with her.

[Captain.Remy]

I'm really glad that Caitlin Jenner spoke out on this. She's a respected member of the Trans community and an ex athlete. I'd say that should be the final word on the matter.

She's very controversial in the trans community and she definitely should not be the final word on the matter.
She gives her opinion which like all opinions are welcome (as long as they're not transphobic obviously) but it's not a black and white issue and just because she's an ex athelete and a transwoman doesn't mean she gets to decide on her own or be "the final word".
Good for her if she has an opinion on the matter.

[bots]

i think it's more that she is high profile and at least has some experience. Of course people will disagree with her, but in what seems to be an emotive subject area, it's nice to see what i perceive as being common sense

[Niamh.]

She's very controversial in the trans community and she definitely should not be the final word on the matter.
She gives her opinion which like all opinions are welcome (as long as they're not transphobic obviously) but it's not a black and white issue and just because she's an ex athelete and a transwoman doesn't mean she gets to decide on her own or be "the final word".
Good for her if she has an opinion on the matter.

It's very much a black and white issue when it comes to Sport which has always been segregated by sex (not gender) because of physical differences between the sexes

[Oliver_W]

It's very much a black and white issue when it comes to Sport which has always been segregated by sex (not gender) because of physical differences between the sexes

Yeah, good on Caitlyn for drawing a line on this issue early on. Caitlyn has already shown to not give a crap about single-sex spaces when it comes to bathrooms (https://youtu.be/DDUdZaftjw4) (and saw fit to finish that video with a rape joke...) so it's good to know Caitlyn has some respect for fairness in sports.

A bit tangential but it's interesting how LGB and T get lumped in together when homosexuals and transexuals have little in common. A transwoman and a gay man might both be treated differently for being males who don't conform to traditional masculinity, but it ends there. Though I guess same sex marriage applies to both, depending on who the transperson in question wishes to marry.

[Captain.Remy]

It's very much a black and white issue when it comes to Sport which has always been segregated by sex (not gender) because of physical differences between the sexes

Black and white to some probably, but not to all. I mean, I'm a sports guy myself, been practicing for over 20 years and to me it's not a closed topic nor an easy one.
It's a much complex one. The fact that there are a lot of discussions around it shows it's not an easy topic and there are a lot of emotions around it.
I'm not arguing on whether trans people should be allowed or not, but we just can't brush off such a sensitive social issue by saying "This has always been like that so it can't be changed". Society is changing, perceptions are changing etc So let's all try to listen to what everybody has to say in a gently manner. :blush:

[Cherie]

Black and white to some probably, but not to all. I mean, I'm a sports guy myself, been practicing for over 20 years and to me it's not a closed topic nor an easy one.
It's a much complex one. The fact that there are a lot of discussions around it shows it's not an easy topic and there are a lot of emotions around it.
I'm not arguing on whether trans people should be allowed or not, but we just can't brush off such a sensitive social issue by saying "This has always been like that so it can't be changed". Society is changing, perceptions are changing etc So let's all try to listen to what everybody has to say in a gently manner. :blush:

That's the problem though isn't it, as soon as women born as women raise an issue regarding competing against women born as men, they are shut down and called Terfs when really what they want is a level playing field if you will pardon the pun! If it could be discussed at all without the name calling that would be progress

[Crimson Dynamo]

Black and white to some probably, but not to all. I mean, I'm a sports guy myself, been practicing for over 20 years and to me it's not a closed topic nor an easy one.
It's a much complex one. The fact that there are a lot of discussions around it shows it's not an easy topic and there are a lot of emotions around it.
I'm not arguing on whether trans people should be allowed or not, but we just can't brush off such a sensitive social issue by saying "This has always been like that so it can't be changed". Society is changing, perceptions are changing etc So let's all try to listen to what everybody has to say in a gently manner. :blush:

what isnt changing is the size and strength difference between men and women

so im afraid that dictates this

[Oliver_W]

Black and white to some probably, but not to all. I mean, I'm a sports guy myself, been practicing for over 20 years and to me it's not a closed topic nor an easy one.
It's a much complex one. The fact that there are a lot of discussions around it shows it's not an easy topic and there are a lot of emotions around it.
I'm not arguing on whether trans people should be allowed or not, but we just can't brush off such a sensitive social issue by saying "This has always been like that so it can't be changed". Society is changing, perceptions are changing etc So let's all try to listen to what everybody has to say in a gently manner. :blush:

No-one would argue that sports should have barriers to entry such as skill and ability, but sex should also be an accepted barrier. Biological women have no chance against transwomen in competitive sports.

[Tom4784]

Yet she's competed in female golf tournaments herself. Bit hypocritical.

I think what she's saying is ultimately true, unfortunately. Trans women innately have an unfair advantage in female sport while sadly, trans men will have a disadvantage in male sport.

The only real solution I can think of is to have trans men and women divisions which feels exclusionary and unfeasible atm considering there aren't many trans athletes, but it's the only way I can think of that's fair to all involved. Trans athletes won't have to be excluded from sports because of innate advantages or disadvantages, and cisgendered women won't feel pushed out either.

[Captain.Remy]

That's the problem though isn't it, as soon as women born as women raise an issue regarding competing against women born as men, they are shut down and called Terfs when really what they want is a level playing field if you will pardon the pun! If it could be discussed at all without the name calling that would be progress

Yes and it goes both ways too! :blush: No name calling as it doesn't help (In the local shelter for LGBTQ+ people I volunteer at, a lot of debates take place and I haven't heard any, but yes it exists from both ends) and listening!

There are a lot of emotions around these topics :shrug: What used to be acceptable is not anymore to some people, some want to keep it this way ect Tough topic to have an understandable outcome.

[Shaun]

It has to be a sport by sport basis, really, because there are some where physical differences are so minimal. And then there's team sports... would one member of a (football/hockey/netball/basketball) team, who is trans, make that much of an impact on the entire team game?

The whole issue doesn't take into consideration women (who are "born women") being naturally assigned more testosterone, wider hips, broader shoulders etc. being pit against other women. Or men with more oestrogen, slimmer hips, longer legs, etc. If you take some of the greatest athletes of all time - like Michael Phelps for example - he is basically superhuman and not at all comparable to an average man. His chest size and arm length is colossal. Are those instances still classed as a level playing field? Because right now you could argue that every long-distance or marathon runner has very little "femininity" compared to most.

Like TS said, sports are, by definition, exclusive of most body types and physiology... but I suppose the problem is athletic trans people not having any place to compete, not having any career prospects whatsoever, and being rejected from both gendered fields, and the whole subject seems to heading down the path of "stick them in with the paralympics then", as if trans people are a disability, or possess that sense of "otherness" that alienates them from so much of society. It's unfair either way.

[Niamh.]

Yet she's competed in female golf tournaments herself. Bit hypocritical.

I think what she's saying is ultimately true, unfortunately. Trans women innately have an unfair advantage in female sport while sadly, trans men will have a disadvantage in male sport.

The only real solution I can think of is to have trans men and women divisions which feels exclusionary and unfeasible atm considering there aren't many trans athletes, but it's the only way I can think of that's fair to all involved. Trans athletes won't have to be excluded from sports because of innate advantages or disadvantages, and cisgendered women won't feel pushed out either.

Oh I didn't know that, that is pretty hypocritical alright

[Oliver_W]

The most fair way is probably for transwomen to compete in male teams. Have the sex divisions be divided by ... sex.

[Crimson Dynamo]

How many actual people are we talking about here it must be miniscule?

[Niamh.]

It has to be a sport by sport basis, really, because there are some where physical differences are so minimal. And then there's team sports... would one member of a (football/hockey/netball/basketball) team, who is trans, make that much of an impact on the entire team game?

The whole issue doesn't take into consideration women (who are "born women") being naturally assigned more testosterone, wider hips, broader shoulders etc. being pit against other women. Or men with more oestrogen, slimmer hips, longer legs, etc. If you take some of the greatest athletes of all time - like Michael Phelps for example - he is basically superhuman and not at all comparable to an average man. His chest size and arm length is colossal. Are those instances still classed as a level playing field? Because right now you could argue that every long-distance or marathon runner has very little "femininity" compared to most.

Like TS said, sports are, by definition, exclusive of most body types and physiology... but I suppose the problem is athletic trans people not having any place to compete, not having any career prospects whatsoever, and being rejected from both gendered fields, and the whole subject seems to heading down the path of "stick them in with the paralympics then", as if trans people are a disability, or possess that sense of "otherness" that alienates them from so much of society. It's unfair either way.

Obviously there are men and women who are naturally physically superior to other men and women but we're talking here about for the most part biological men are physically stronger, faster etc than biological women, all you need do to see by how much is look at men's records compared to women's, it's the whole reason sex is segregated in the first place because if it wasn't there would be very very few women being good enough to play in mixed sex sports.

In regards to team sports I do think one player can make a massive difference and i do think 1 player could cause more serious injuries to other players too

I get how it's not ideal for genuine transwomen to not be allowed compete with women but it just takes the fairness out of it for biological women to allow transwomen play not least because it leaves the door wide open for people to abuse it (and people would when money and notoriety is involved) I'm not going to post a list of cases where this has already started happening in women's sports because I'm sure I've posted them before

[Beso]

within their own sex category

Which is?

[Niamh.]

Which is?Their biological sex, i don't think anyone is denying that transwomen are biologically male, if they weren't then they wouldn't be transitioning?

[Crimson Dynamo]

Their biological sex, i don't think anyone is denying that transwomen are biologically male, if they weren't then they wouldn't be transitioning?

checkmate

[Beso]

Their biological sex, i don't think anyone is denying that transwomen are biologically male, if they weren't then they wouldn't be transitioning?

They surely wouldn't be running a half marathon or lobbing the shot putt, whilst in the midst of a transitional.


Even a butterfly has to lay down for stuff like that.

[Oliver_W]

They surely wouldn't be running a half marathon or lobbing the shot putt, whilst in the midst of a transitional.


Even a butterfly has to lay down for stuff like that.

:joker:

That's like saying women are too busy menstruating to take part in sports. I doubt transitioning is so time consuming they don't have time for anything else.

[Beso]

:joker:

That's like saying women are too busy menstruating to take part in sports. I doubt transitioning is so time consuming they don't have time for anything else.


Woildnt the medicines they take get them banned under current regulations?

[GoldHeart]

The problem is the assumption that they all want to compete in women's sports ,but that's not the case atall. .

[Niamh.]

The problem is the assumption that they all want to compete in women's sports ,but that's not the case atall. .Nobody has said that

[GoldHeart]

Nobody has said that

I don't mean in this thread Niamh, I'm talking about in general. There was a trans bodybuilding who had misinformation spread about her wanting to compete in women's sports.

[Crimson Dynamo]

I don't mean in this thread Niamh, I'm talking about in general. There was a trans bodybuilding who had misinformation spread about her wanting to compete in women's sports.

so if true that is one specific example

Not

In general

[Conzors]

Hmmmm very tricky one.
I think it’s disrespectful to keep calling someone by their biological gender because it’s what they were born with, things change and people feel differently and if there are ways for people to feel true to themselves then we should allow that and respect them.

On the other hand, sports categories are separated into men and women because of biology, and although trans people want to escape from their biological selves, it also has to be fair amongst everyone. If a trans male was to complete in a male team sport they would have a disadvantage as they are competing with cis males who are, biologically generally, more muscular, quicker, stronger etc - so it wouldn’t be fair on the trans male here.

Trans females compete in cis female sports gives the disadvantage to the other females who have trained hard to be a pro I’m their field, again down to genetics, so wouldn’t be fair on the cis females.

It’s such a thin line and a grey area and most sports empires are scared to address in fear of saying something incorrect and tbh I don’t think there ever will be a resolution, unless you split it into four:
CIS MEN
CIS WOMEN
TRANS MEN
TRANS WOMEM

But who’s saying there will be enough competitors on the trans teams, because like @goldheart said, the case for most trans people is not that they wanna compete in their genders sport.

[Niamh.]

Woildnt the medicines they take get them banned under current regulations?In the states with Joe Bidens new bill all you need do is say which gender you identify as, no medication required

[Niamh.]

Hmmmm very tricky one.
I think it’s disrespectful to keep calling someone by their biological gender because it’s what they were born with, things change and people feel differently and if there are ways for people to feel true to themselves then we should allow that and respect them.

On the other hand, sports categories are separated into men and women because of biology, and although trans people want to escape from their biological selves, it also has to be fair amongst everyone. If a trans male was to complete in a male team sport they would have a disadvantage as they are competing with cis males who are, biologically generally, more muscular, quicker, stronger etc - so it wouldn’t be fair on the trans male here.

Trans females compete in cis female sports gives the disadvantage to the other females who have trained hard to be a pro I’m their field, again down to genetics, so wouldn’t be fair on the cis females.

It’s such a thin line and a grey area and most sports empires are scared to address in fear of saying something incorrect and tbh I don’t think there ever will be a resolution, unless you split it into four:
CIS MEN
CIS WOMEN
TRANS MEN
TRANS WOMEM

But who’s saying there will be enough competitors on the trans teams, because like @goldheart said, the case for most trans people is not that they wanna compete in their genders sport.I don't identify as a cis woman, I identify as a biological woman.

[Beso]

In the states with Joe Bidens new bill all you need do is say which gender you identify as, no medication required

If the women have any sense they will identify as male for the higher pay packet..

I'm back tomorrow with some more useful life tips.:wavey:

[Niamh.]

If the women have any sense they will identify as male for the higher pay packet..



I'm back tomorrow with some more useful life tips.:wavey:If women could just identify out of being women that easily our lives in general would be a lot easier

[bots]

people are just trying to muddy the waters and create conflict and confusion in my humble opinion. Sports should continue to by categorized by biological sex. If within those sex categories there are different genders ... that is something the world will need to get used to, but at least the fairness of competition will be maintained.

[user104658]

If the women have any sense they will identify as male for the higher pay packet..

I'm back tomorrow with some more useful life tips.:wavey:


They wouldn’t be able to compete in the top male tiers. That’s the whole problem, Parmy. One of the Williams sisters did an exhibition match that all but proved this years back; she played a male player who was way down at 100th+ in the rankings while she was #1 in women’s tennis and he beat her fairly quickly. Her technical game (the part you can practice) was miles ahead of his, but the strength and speed of the serve in the men’s game meant she struggled to return serve frequently. It quite succinctly sums up the issue I think. Women can train to be just as skilled as men, but they can’t realistically reach the same strength level... because it’s a basic biological advantage. There’s no way around it.

[Beso]

They wouldn’t be able to compete in the top male tiers. That’s the whole problem, Parmy. One of the Williams sisters did an exhibition match that all but proved this years back; she played a male player who was way down at 100th+ in the rankings while she was #1 in women’s tennis and he beat her fairly quickly. Her technical game (the part you can practice) was miles ahead of his, but the strength and speed of the serve in the men’s game meant she struggled to return serve frequently. It quite succinctly sums up the issue I think. Women can train to be just as skilled as men, but they can’t realistically reach the same strength level... because it’s a basic biological advantage. There’s no way around it.

Then shouldn't they be treated like all the other men who cant make the grade in that case, as that would maintain their acceptance level fairly.

[Crimson Dynamo]

They wouldn’t be able to compete in the top male tiers. That’s the whole problem, Parmy. One of the Williams sisters did an exhibition match that all but proved this years back; she played a male player who was way down at 100th+ in the rankings while she was #1 in women’s tennis and he beat her fairly quickly. Her technical game (the part you can practice) was miles ahead of his, but the strength and speed of the serve in the men’s game meant she struggled to return serve frequently. It quite succinctly sums up the issue I think. Women can train to be just as skilled as men, but they can’t realistically reach the same strength level... because it’s a basic biological advantage. There’s no way around it.

FC Dallas under-15 boys beat the USA Women's National team 5-2

:skull:

[bots]

if you look at the mixed doubles matches at wimbledon, when the man serves against the woman it's hilarious. If they are lucky enough to get the ball back, the follow up smash ends the point

[user104658]

people are just trying to muddy the waters and create conflict and confusion in my humble opinion. Sports should continue to by categorized by biological sex. If within those sex categories there are different genders ... that is something the world will need to get used to, but at least the fairness of competition will be maintained.


The issue there is in performance enhancement though, and it still disproportionately affects women’s sports. A biologically female transman who has been on testosterone for years will ALSO have a distinct strength advantage over unmedicated people. There’s a reason that various hormones are banned as performance enhancing drugs in most if not all sports.

The inverse would be true of men’s sports; if a top male Rugby player starts taking female hormones to transition, he will quickly lose the strength needed to compete in the top men’s tiers.

The problem is that hormones end up with a “half way point” that fits in neither category. Trans women taking hormones lose physical strength, so they’re not as strong as the men, but are still stronger than other women. Transmen gain an advantage over other biological females, but it’s unlikely to be to the extent that they can compete with biological males.

I can appreciate that it’s very complicated. But of course, the focus needs to always remain in no one gaining an unfair advantage, and (first and foremost) safety.

[user104658]

if you look at the mixed doubles matches at wimbledon, when the man serves against the woman it's hilarious. If they are lucky enough to get the ball back, the follow up smash ends the point


It makes for some really boring tennis matches in early rounds to be honest, the big-serve men’s games. Quarter finals and beyond is the only part that’s still good because the top tier players are the only ones who can reliably return a top tier serve and get into the part of the game that’s actually entertaining to watch.

[Niamh.]

Then shouldn't they be treated like all the other men who cant make the grade in that case, as that would maintain their acceptance level fairly.

Are you talking about transmen here or all women? If you're talking about transmen presumably that is what already happens

[user104658]

Tennis is pretty much the only sport I voluntarily watch for fun, as an interesting tidbit of TS info :joker:. But just the final stages of the big 4.

[Niamh.]

Tennis is pretty much the only sport I voluntarily watch for fun, as an interesting tidbit of TS info :joker:. But just the final stages of the big 4.

Was never into tennis at all, definitely more of a combat sport fan myself

[Oliver_W]

The issue there is in performance enhancement though, and it still disproportionately affects women’s sports. A biologically female transman who has been on testosterone for years will ALSO have a distinct strength advantage over unmedicated people. There’s a reason that various hormones are banned as performance enhancing drugs in most if not all sports.

The inverse would be true of men’s sports; if a top male Rugby player starts taking female hormones to transition, he will quickly lose the strength needed to compete in the top men’s tiers.

The problem is that hormones end up with a “half way point” that fits in neither category. Trans women taking hormones lose physical strength, so they’re not as strong as the men, but are still stronger than other women. Transmen gain an advantage over other biological females, but it’s unlikely to be to the extent that they can compete with biological males.

I can appreciate that it’s very complicated. But of course, the focus needs to always remain in no one gaining an unfair advantage, and (first and foremost) safety.
As far as I know, there aren't any specific reles against sportspeople taking performance degrading drugs? Like, laws aside, the leagues don't specifically say "thou shalt not get stoned every night", even though doing so would damage their perfomance?

Transition hormones should be treated similarly. If a transwoman can't keep up with the other males as a result of taking the hormones, the choice should be a)give up the sport or b)stop taking the hormones.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Fury over decision to let transsexual enter Tokyo Olympics: New Zealand's female
weightlifters reveal they are 'told to be quiet' when they complain that a woman 'will lose
out'


New Zealand transgender athlete Laurel Hubbard is set to compete at Olympics
Hubbard competed in men's weightlifting competitions before transitioning
But former weightlifter Tracey Lambrechs has said women are being silenced
Those that complain, she says, are being 'told to be quiet' if they voice concern



https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2021/05/07/16/42672210-9553101-The_athlete_pictured_before_undergoing_her_transit ion_previously-a-11_1620401785867.jpghttps://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2021/05/07/19/42702674-9553101-Hubbard_on_stage_during_the_Women_s_90kg_Final_dur ing_the_Weight-a-2_1620410886134.jpg

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9553101/Fury-decision-let-transsexual-enter-Tokyo-Olympics.html

top comment by miles:

I may be wrong but I have never heard of females who have trans to
males wanting to enter male competitions. I wonder why that is, is it
because they know they wouldn't stand a chance of winning.

:skull:

[Oliver_W]

New Zealand are almost guaranteed a Gold medal in the "female" category, then...

[Elliot]

Didn’t she literally kill someone and get away with it bc she’s rich :skull:

[Niamh.]

Didn’t she literally kill someone and get away with it bc she’s rich :skull:

It was a car crash, presumably that was an accident?

[Crimson Dynamo]

Didn’t she literally kill someone and get away with it bc she’s rich :skull:

no

[GoldHeart]

It was a car crash, presumably that was an accident?

I don't know much about it,but I assumed it was an accident aswell.

[user104658]

It was a car crash, presumably that was an accident?

In February 2015, Jenner was involved in a fatal multiple-vehicle collision on the Pacific Coast Highway in Malibu, California. Kim Howe, an animal rights activist and actress, was killed when Jenner's SUV ran into Howe's car. Accounts of the sequence of collisions have varied, as have the number of people injured.[133] Prosecutors declined to file criminal charges, but three civil lawsuits were filed against Jenner by Howe's stepchildren and drivers of other cars involved in the collision.[134][135] Jessica Steindorff, a Hollywood agent who was hit by Howe's car, settled her case in December 2015. Howe's stepchildren settled their case in January 2016.[136] Financial details were not disclosed in either case.[137]

From good old wikipedia. It seems like there wasn't enough evidence that she was at fault for prosecutors to press charges, but some of the victims felt that she was at fault and filed civil lawsuits for damages which were settled out of court (so unknown how a court would have ruled on those too).

So definitely an accident but in terms of being at fault, an "unknown, not enough evidence either way" situation I think.

[Niamh.]

From good old wikipedia. It seems like there wasn't enough evidence that she was at fault for prosecutors to press charges, but some of the victims felt that she was at fault and filed civil lawsuits for damages which were settled out of court (so unknown how a court would have ruled on those too).

So definitely an accident but in terms of being at fault, an "unknown, not enough evidence either way" situation I think.

Being at fault doesn't stop it being an accident though (unless she was drink driving or something like that?) But she would surely have been Breathalyzed

[user104658]

Being at fault doesn't stop it being an accident though (unless she was drink driving or something like that?) But she would surely have been Breathalyzed

Yeah and (I would have thought) definitely charged if there was proof of intoxication or reckless driving or anything like that. TBH sounds like she just ****ed up/made an error which obviously happens to all drivers at some point, but sadly someone died.

Then again, 25+ years ago my own grandmother was killed by a driver doing 60mph into a village over a blind summit which is pretty unambiguously reckless to me, but they didn't prosecute there either! So I understand families feeling differently I guess.

[Ammi]

…it was (…apparently found by the Sheriff’s office investigations…)…that she was driving at an unfit or unsafe speed for the weather conditions but that no criminal charges would be made…

[Niamh.]

…it was (…apparently found by the Sheriff’s office investigations…)…that she was driving at an unfit or unsafe speed for the weather conditions but that no criminal charges would be made…

Thanks Ammi

[Ammi]

…she did give a settlement of $800,000 to the family, though…

[Marsh.]

Didn’t she literally kill someone and get away with it bc she’s rich :skull:

I guess when you can't argue against what she said, bring up something irrelevant to the topic to distract from it. :skull:

[user104658]

…she did give a settlement of $800,000 to the family, though…

To be fair I think out of court settlements are often seen as an admission of guilt, when really it can just be people not wanting the situation to carry on any longer. Also I guess it sounds like she was considered to be at fault for the accident, but not to a criminal extent, which again I guess is often the case with traffic incidents - e.g. insurers will decide that one, both or neither driver was at fault and that decides liability for the claim but doesn't mean anyone broke the law. Must be hard to live with I suppose.

[Captain.Remy]

Transgender women allowed to play women’s rugby in France – federation (https://sports.inquirer.net/423452/transgender-women-allowed-to-play-womens-rugby-in-france-federation)

[Marsh.]

Transgender women allowed to play women’s rugby in France – federation (https://sports.inquirer.net/423452/transgender-women-allowed-to-play-womens-rugby-in-france-federation)

:/

[Crimson Dynamo]

Transgender women allowed to play women’s rugby in France – federation (https://sports.inquirer.net/423452/transgender-women-allowed-to-play-womens-rugby-in-france-federation)

wtaf

[Elliot]

Transgender women allowed to play women’s rugby in France – federation (https://sports.inquirer.net/423452/transgender-women-allowed-to-play-womens-rugby-in-france-federation)

Purr as they should

[DouglasS]

Most be so frustrating for women who have worked so hard all their life to be the top of the game and are beaten because somebody has superior hormones for the sport and haven’t had to try as hard to be at the top because their bodies enable them to perform better and there’s nothing the born female can do about it, even if she just trains harder..

[user104658]

Purr as they should

World Rugby said that after months of research, it had “concluded that safety and fairness cannot presently be assured for women competing against trans women in contact rugby”

But who cares about namby-pamby concepts like "research" or "women" amirite?

[Oliver_W]

Purr as they should

Why? It's not fair on women, nor is if safe for them.

[Elliot]

PLS not yall pretending to care about women’s sports to hate on trans people

[Oliver_W]

It's not about sports, it's about women. It's not safe or fair for women to play in contact sports against males.

[Niamh.]

PLS not yall pretending to care about women’s sports to hate on trans peopleOh yeah **** women, who cares about us eh?

[AnnieK]

PLS not yall pretending to care about women’s sports to hate on trans people

Where is anyone hating on trans people? I am seeing no hate at all. I.don't.know what the answer is but the simple fact is trans women have a biological advantage on cis women. It doesn't make for a fair playing field. We all want equality but in sports, its impossible.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/dec/07/study-suggests-ioc-adjustment-period-for-trans-women-may-be-too-short

[Niamh.]

Just to add in response to Elliotts comment, first of all you don't need to follow sport or women's sport to care about it as a women's rights issue or to have it effect a woman or girl you know or are related to and secondly I literally have a female boxer as my avatar but I'm only pretending to care about women's sports?

[DouglasS]

Just to add in response to Elliotts comment, first of all you don't need to follow sport or women's sport to care about it as a women's rights issue or to have it effect a woman or girl you know or are related to and secondly I literally have a female boxer as my avatar but I'm only pretending to care about women's sports?

I’m pretty sure Elliot doesn’t even follow women’s sports so that may be why he doesn’t understand that allowing trans women to participate competitively is actually inequality towards women in sport.

Perhaps they should form a trans women’s league separately?

[Niamh.]

I’m pretty sure Elliot doesn’t even follow women’s sports so that may be why he doesn’t understand that allowing trans women to participate competitively is actually inequality towards women in sport.

Perhaps they should form a trans women’s league separately?A solution could be to have everyone compete as the sex they are regardless of which gender they identify as, surely that makes the most sense, as the reason for the two categories in sport is for sex based, biological differences/advantages and actually nothing to do with gender, that would also solve the issue of where non binary people should participate considering they don't identify as either gender

[Ammi]

…the only one thing I’ll say to Elliott and just in general…is that I do think agendas can sometimes mar these things and be very unhelpful…it’s a bit like a genuine protest for instance in a very good cause …but then there may be a small attachment of agenda driven disingenuous stuff…so is it right that the whole point of it be dismissed or disregarded when we know that isn’t the representative….when the voices there are very clear and very genuine…and there are many clear and genuine voices here, Elliott…and there will never be any conversations, very necessary conversations while those voices are dismissed with a general sweeping and judging of all…?…but I’ve said it quite recently that I’m not myself always comfortable with some voices on this topic who generally seem to be resistant to other feminist topics…only this one…and Lord, it’s difficult enough with two groups representing their own ‘inequalities’…

…anyways, I’ve been reading actually quite a bit this morning…I’m not going to post any links because the writings are not articles, they’re on Google Scholar and they’re studies…so really have no ‘bias’ at all, they only have science, nothing more and nothing less…there are many many of them and easy to find if there is any interest but they are sometimes quite extensive……it does still seem to be quite divided in that some sports would probably be okay and deemed as more safe and some not so…and to ensure safety for all, it would seem to have to be less divided and more assured…anyways, I don’t think that I have any more to add atm…

[Oliver_W]

A solution could be to have everyone compete as the sex they are regardless of which gender they identify as, surely that makes the most sense, as the reason for the two categories in sport is for sex based, biological differences/advantages and actually nothing to do with gender, that would also solve the issue of where non binary people should participate considering they don't identify as either gender

Quite. Gender identity is pretty much the same as religion, in that it's an internal belief with no material reality. Allowing transwomen to compete against women makes about as much sense as allowing someone to attempt to swim the Atlantic because they believe they're Aquaman.

[Crimson Dynamo]

excellent response from Ben, not talking down or insulting just a good honest and accurate answer to a question.

Ignore video title as its designed to irritate and was not made by BS

xhX-vrNVlzI

[rusticgal]

Where is anyone hating on trans people? I am seeing no hate at all. I.don't.know what the answer is but the simple fact is trans women have a biological advantage on cis women. It doesn't make for a fair playing field. We all want equality but in sports, its impossible.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/dec/07/study-suggests-ioc-adjustment-period-for-trans-women-may-be-too-short


I totally agree.

[GoldHeart]

PLS not yall pretending to care about women’s sports to hate on trans people

You CAN'T say that for everyone on here Elliot.