DO the Labour Party actually like Britain?

[Crimson Dynamo]

?

is this at the crux of their staggering decline?

https://c.files.bbci.co.uk/F567/production/_115132826_69ceaeaa-0047-40db-8e91-53f2692b869b.jpg

https://swp.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/featured-image-for-FB-shares-1200-x-630px.jpg

[arista]

Well they want you to follow their views?

[Crimson Dynamo]

Well they want you to follow their views?

but is it that their views are just unrealistic?

[arista]

but is it that their views are just unrealistic?


Yes hence the Terrible Local Elections in England for Labour
Starmer is not connecting.

[Zizu]

Yes hence the Terrible Local Elections in England for Labour

Starmer is not connecting.



In my humble opinion, Starmer ‘looked’ potentially good for about the first 2 weeks of his ‘reign’ and I was rather optimistic about the political scene .. then he very rapidly just became a complete joke early last year .

Initially he was backing the government in everything - as they fought against Covid began promising that the political parties would all fight as one against the pandemic... that lasted a few weeks and then he started jumping on any passing bandwagon that found any kind of fault with the Tory strategies.

Now he’s almost a caricature of his former , poll winning self ... he’s actually not even worth listening to now .


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[bots]

Starmer's face in that video yesterday was very weird, i wasn't sure whether he was really angry or was about to cry. It certainly wasn't the face of someone in control

[user104658]

“Does labour like Britain as it stands after a decade of Tory government”

.... well no probably not, otherwise they would not exist? :think: that’s sort of how democracy works isn’t it.

They aren’t currently electable though, they’ve become a mess of identity politics because they (mistakenly) believe there’s more voting power there than there is. They’ve made the classic mistake of confusing “loudness” with actual numbers and have thus alienated the core voter base.

[Swan]

You never know what you're going to get from Labour, there's massive inconsistencies, massive flip flopping across the board. The same could be said for the Tories at times, but Labour seems to be such a divided party and they lack any form of consistency or true leadership. The party unity is non-existent at the moment.

Can't say im a great fan of either party, however from the outside looking in it's easy to see why life-long Labour voters have lost all faith in the current regime.

Edit - As for the actual thread title question, i don't honestly know what they like anymore.

[bots]

i think the labour party have become an echo chamber pretty much like social media. They reinforce each others doctrines, everyone in their bubble goes ... yeah, lets have more of that, and the result is, it bears no relation to what the population of the uk believe is important to them. The labour party are trying to change the populations thinking rather than reflect what the population actually want.

[arista]

Conservative MP's
have had calls for better bin collection.

Not about Starmer standing in a John Lewis
Wall Paper section.


We do not need silly tactics Starmer?


Ref:LBC, Times Radio DAB, Radio 4, Radio 5
BBCnewsHD, SkyNewsHD, Ch4HDnews & Wion HD

[arista]

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2021/05/08/00/42715024-0-image-a-9_1620429007063.jpg

[Oliver_W]

“Does labour like Britain as it stands after a decade of Tory government”

.... well no probably not, otherwise they would not exist? :think: that’s sort of how democracy works isn’t it.

They aren’t currently electable though, they’ve become a mess of identity politics because they (mistakenly) believe there’s more voting power there than there is. They’ve made the classic mistake of confusing “loudness” with actual numbers and have thus alienated the core voter base.

That's a fair and balanced response, pretty much crystalised my views :)

The core voter base is (of course) against things like racism and homophobia by and large, but that doesn't translate to "fling open the borders" and "allow males into women's spaces and sports".

Which isn't all Labour talk about, but as you say the louder voices are heard most, and it allows the mainstream media to paint a caricature.

[The Slim Reaper]

I think the question is completely disingenuous when the dominant party votes against feeding poor children, uses the pandemic to transfer our taxes to their mates, and with a pm who said "let the bodies pile high." Just like society, we have posters that cheer them on through all this.

There are machinations that have been taking place within labour for years, with the right of the party openly working against the left. All of this has been laid out within their internal reports but Starmer has refused to release them.

It's not about echo chambers, and believing they are listening to twitter, which just doesn't add up to anything for one simple reason, twitter is probably more openly left wing (when it comes to labour representation), but absolutely nothing about Starmers leadership has been lw. The left has been purged completely from labour, which is a weird way to surrender your party to the loudest, "woke" mob.

[Crimson Dynamo]

But Sir Keir Starmer and his people are no less distant from Labour’s former heartland. It was perfectly respectable for them to
oppose Brexit at the referendum, but it was reprehensible to try to stop it afterwards by using lawyers’ tricks against the
largest vote for anything in British history. A constituency which voted nearly 70 per cent for Brexit has taken its by-election
chance to say to Labour and its ultra-Remainer candidate: “How many times do we have to tell you?” A similar percentage re-
elected the Conservative Ben Houchen as Mayor of the wider Teesside.

In the current, divisive culture wars, Mr Corbyn and Sir Keir are on the same, wrong side. At the height of last year’s Black
Lives Matter madness, Sir Keir and his deputy Angela Rayner were photographed “taking the knee”. They live in a world in
which “human rights” have become synonymous with well-paid litigation on behalf of extremists – making life tough, for
example, for British ex-servicemen in Northern Ireland and easier for former members of the IRA. They do not seem much
interested in the rights of people in places like Hartlepool. Voters notice.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/05/07/first-time-suspect-reports-labours-death-not-exaggerated/

as per Charles nails it

[The Slim Reaper]

Imagine thinking that supporting equality puts anyone on the wrong side, although I get why some would feel like that. It's truly bizarro world at the moment. I imagine these times are like thatchers time, a pm and party openly hostile to the working classes and immigrants, being voted in by the same folks that have watched their communities destroyed.

I was making a bit of food earlier with the radio on, and a caller from Hartlepool phoned in to praise the tories for giving them 9 foodbanks, not criticising them for the austerity that made them a necessity. We have a one party state with the media echoing the government exactly in an increasingly authoritarian society with a government removing checks and accountability from themselves by the day.

The areas in which labour did well - such as preston, salford, and wales all had an identity and a vision to offer. Everywhere else they were nondescript tory-lites.

[The Slim Reaper]

In my humble opinion, Starmer ‘looked’ potentially good for about the first 2 weeks of his ‘reign’ and I was rather optimistic about the political scene .. then he very rapidly just became a complete joke early last year .

Initially he was backing the government in everything - as they fought against Covid began promising that the political parties would all fight as one against the pandemic... that lasted a few weeks and then he started jumping on any passing bandwagon that found any kind of fault with the Tory strategies.

Now he’s almost a caricature of his former , poll winning self ... he’s actually not even worth listening to now .


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I've never liked starmer, but you liked him when he was blindly following the tories, but when he wasn't 100% supportive of their corruption and murder, you stopped liking him? :laugh:

[bots]

i would be very surprised if starmer is still leader at the next election. The problem is not really starmer, the problem is the labour party and there is no easy fix there

[Zizu]

I've never liked starmer, but you liked him when he was blindly following the tories, but when he wasn't 100% supportive of their corruption and murder, you stopped liking him? :laugh:



Initially everyone in Britain were supporting the government..


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[Zizu]

Imagine thinking that supporting equality puts anyone on the wrong side, although I get why some would feel like that. It's truly bizarro world at the moment. I imagine these times are like thatchers time, a pm and party openly hostile to the working classes and immigrants, being voted in by the same folks that have watched their communities destroyed.



I was making a bit of food earlier with the radio on, and a caller from Hartlepool phoned in to praise the tories for giving them 9 foodbanks, not criticising them for the austerity that made them a necessity. We have a one party state with the media echoing the government exactly in an increasingly authoritarian society with a government removing checks and accountability from themselves by the day.



The areas in which labour did well - such as preston, salford, and wales all had an identity and a vision to offer. Everywhere else they were nondescript tory-lites.



All those problems you mentioned go back way further than ten years ...


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[Crimson Dynamo]

i would be very surprised if starmer is still leader at the next election. The problem is not really starmer, the problem is the labour party and there is no easy fix there

the problem is the labour party stopped being the labour party in the eighties and now has no idea what it is now. It died first in Scotland and now in England

[The Slim Reaper]

All those problems you mentioned go back way further than ten years ...


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If only there was data. Look at foodbank usage prior to 2010 tory austerity vs now.

[Zizu]

If only there was data. Look at foodbank usage prior to 2010 tory austerity vs now.



What’s the data for the five years before that ??


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[The Slim Reaper]

What’s the data for the five years before that ??


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The UK had 40k foodbanks before Cameron's election victory. We now have over 1.5 million. More foodbanks than McDonalds franchises.

[Zizu]

The UK had 40k foodbanks before Cameron's election victory. We now have over 1.5 million. More foodbanks than McDonalds franchises.



Sounds horrendous though stats can be interpreted in different ways ..




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[Swan]

The UK had 40k foodbanks before Cameron's election victory. We now have over 1.5 million. More foodbanks than McDonalds franchises.

1.5 million? That sounds like way too many. That's an insane number!

[The Slim Reaper]

Sounds horrendous though stats can be interpreted in different ways ..




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If you have a different way to interpret that, then go for it. Tories told everyone what they were going to do and they did it. They cut the bottom out of the safety nets whilst exploding the debt they told everyone they were making the cuts to reduce.

[Tom4784]

I don't think anyone with common sense should like the UK as it stands, it's terrible and nothing will ever change because the public don't mind swallowing Tory **** because they think that someone they don't like is suffering worse.

We live in a repugnant spineless country, and the few things that are good about it atm are under threat by the tories and a complacent public that's all too happy with Boris stamping on their throats.

[The Slim Reaper]

1.5 million? That sounds like way too many. That's an insane number!

You're right. I mixed up food parcel numbers with foodbanks. It was 40k food parcels handed out in 2010 versus 1.7-2m in the year before the pandemic.

[user104658]

The left has been purged completely from labour, which is a weird way to surrender your party to the loudest, "woke" mob.

This is largely correct but it's left behind a husk and not much more; a barebones collection of people without a core ideology lurching between New Labour and Corbynism instead of wiping the table and refocussing on the core issues that centre-left voters are actually concerned with, areas that are being failed in massively by the Tories as you've pointed out.

Given that and your other thread, there are two things I'd add to what I said before;

I think labour have been very guilty of performative "wokeness", or what might often be termed "champagne socialism" in an attempt to appeal to a group that seems bigger than it is, because it's louder than its size in numbers, but a lot of that rhetoric and a lot of those policies don't appeal whatsoever to the centre-left, or really, just to the average joe who can largely see that the Tories are uncaring scum but are more afraid of that loud group of moral absolutists. "Better the devil" and all that.

Which plays into the second point I had here; you point out that the left has been pretty much purged, I agree or at least agree that the top of the party is trying hard to do so, however ... it would be a massive assumption to think that the bulk of voters are politically active or aware enough to actually know what's happening within Labour. Labour will = Corbyn for quite a few years to come in the minds of the less-politically-engaged.

[Swan]

You're right. I mixed up food parcel numbers with foodbanks. It was 40k food parcels handed out in 2010 versus 1.7-2m in the year before the pandemic.

Well it doesn't read well either way. Though it would be fair to factor in a growing population (over 4 million since 2010) and the lack of job opportunities over the past 10 years. The rise of internet shopping, Amazon etc. A large majority of retail workers, immigrants arriving with nothing but the shirt on their backs was always going to lead the need for more food/shelter, no matter which government was in charge.

The number is too many, 1 is too many, however people falling on hard times was always going to be inevitable (mainly due to the rise of internet shopping and buying habits changing). Would Labour over the last 10 years had a reduced number? Who knows, realistically it's impossible to know.

[Tom4784]

Well it doesn't read well either way. Though it would be fair to factor in a growing population (over 4 million since 2010) and the lack of job opportunities over the past 10 years. The rise of internet shopping, Amazon etc. A large majority of retail workers, immigrants arriving with nothing but the shirt on their backs was always going to lead the need for more food/shelter, no matter which government was in charge.

The number is too many, 1 is too many, however people falling on hard times was always going to be inevitable (mainly due to the rise of internet shopping and buying habits changing). Would Labour over the last 10 years had a reduced number? Who knows, realistically it's impossible to know.

The UK population was 62m in 2010, an increase of 4m wouldn't push up the number of food banks and such so much based on that alone.

You mention a lack of job opportunities for the past ten years, pray tell, which party has been in charge for the past ten years? It's down to governments to foster economic growth. The idea that things would have been the same under any government is baseless conjecture that serves to defend the incompetence of the tory governments.

[Swan]

The UK population was 62m in 2010, an increase of 4m wouldn't push up the number of food banks and such so much based on that alone.

You mention a lack of job opportunities for the past ten years, pray tell, which party has been in charge for the past ten years? It's down to governments to foster economic growth. The idea that things would have been the same under any government is baseless conjecture that serves to defend the incompetence of the tory governments.

All im saying is no Government could have controlled the decline in Retail when every year more people turn to internet shopping as their primary source for spending. Im not defending anyone. It's just common sense. A growing population and the lack of Jobs inevitably would have played a huge part in so many needing to turn to food banks.

Im not saying it's right, im saying it's basic logic.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Dr Janice Morphet, a visiting professor at University College London and author of Beyond
Brexit, has said: “a good showing at the local elections could encourage Johnson to make
a run for an early general election - after a good summer, while booster jabs are being
given and before any new variants require further lockdowns later in the year”. Whether
that happens or not, Starmer’s next moves will be vital. As even he admits, his party still
has “a mountain to climb” to win back voters.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/labour-keir-starmer-hartlepool-byelection-loss-reshuffle-b933749.html

[rusticgal]

In my humble opinion, Starmer ‘looked’ potentially good for about the first 2 weeks of his ‘reign’ and I was rather optimistic about the political scene .. then he very rapidly just became a complete joke early last year .

Initially he was backing the government in everything - as they fought against Covid began promising that the political parties would all fight as one against the pandemic... that lasted a few weeks and then he started jumping on any passing bandwagon that found any kind of fault with the Tory strategies.

Now he’s almost a caricature of his former , poll winning self ... he’s actually not even worth listening to now .


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Yes you are spot on there...

[user104658]

All im saying is no Government could have controlled the decline in Retail when every year more people turn to internet shopping as their primary source for spending. Im not defending anyone. It's just common sense. A growing population and the lack of Jobs inevitably would have played a huge part in so many needing to turn to food banks.

Im not saying it's right, im saying it's basic logic.

The retail and service sectors are actually still growing, service sector still substantially, physical retail is stagnating but it's not falling (yet). Yes there have been company and store closures with certain brands and "the highstreet" is flagging, but the sector overall isn't in decline and so there aren't fewer jobs requiring experienced retail staff. The massive increase in food bank use simply can't be attributed to retail job losses.

That said, I haven't seen any solid data on what the cause IS so can't make any concrete statements about fault. HOWEVER, the most likely culprits are increasing cost of living and (especially) increasing cost of housing as a percentage of income leaving less money for other things and increasing difficulty for other things after essential bills. These are the main factors in increasing child poverty, and increasing child poverty is one of the major factors in increasing foodbank usage.

[edit to add]

Why this is relevant; The Government absolutely COULD be doing more to control ballooning property prices, rents and household fuel costs.

[Tom4784]

All im saying is no Government could have controlled the decline in Retail when every year more people turn to internet shopping as their primary source for spending. Im not defending anyone. It's just common sense. A growing population and the lack of Jobs inevitably would have played a huge part in so many needing to turn to food banks.

Im not saying it's right, im saying it's basic logic.

That's still baseless conjecture. You don't know how other governments could have adapted, you're just assuming one thing based off the government we had.

[Swan]

That's still baseless conjecture. You don't know how other governments could have adapted, you're just assuming one thing based off the government we had.

And you're just assuming i think the Tories have done better than what Labour would have. Im saying there is no way to know.

You're free to point out where i said the tories have done a great job, and that Labour would have been terrible. But again, i didn't say anything of the sort.

[The Slim Reaper]

This is largely correct but it's left behind a husk and not much more; a barebones collection of people without a core ideology lurching between New Labour and Corbynism instead of wiping the table and refocussing on the core issues that centre-left voters are actually concerned with, areas that are being failed in massively by the Tories as you've pointed out.

Given that and your other thread, there are two things I'd add to what I said before;

I think labour have been very guilty of performative "wokeness", or what might often be termed "champagne socialism" in an attempt to appeal to a group that seems bigger than it is, because it's louder than its size in numbers, but a lot of that rhetoric and a lot of those policies don't appeal whatsoever to the centre-left, or really, just to the average joe who can largely see that the Tories are uncaring scum but are more afraid of that loud group of moral absolutists. "Better the devil" and all that.

Which plays into the second point I had here; you point out that the left has been pretty much purged, I agree or at least agree that the top of the party is trying hard to do so, however ... it would be a massive assumption to think that the bulk of voters are politically active or aware enough to actually know what's happening within Labour. Labour will = Corbyn for quite a few years to come in the minds of the less-politically-engaged.

There isn't any Corbyn faction left, so I completely disagree with you saying there is a husk. The left have been completely ejected and sidelined. This current labour party should be a centrist/labour rights paradise. Where is the Corbynism coming from within the party?

If voters still see Corbyn as the problem with labour, then it's interesting they would wait for him to leave before taking it out on the party, because Corbyn had his own party working against him from the minute he took over, and never once performed this badly, and his policies are still extremely popular when polled.

There is a simpler explanation that the country is lurching dangerously to the right, and with the soapbox and media amplifying the same dangerous non-conformist buzzwords into their mics everyday, it is the natural conclusion, when coupled with a narcissistic pm and his cabal actively looking to take advantage of the situation for themselves.

I believe the use of wokeness is little more than a method to delegitimise anyone that speaks up against the regime. The courts are woke according to Boris and Priti, folks saying don't be racist are woke according to Andrew Neil, and on and on it goes.

It's easier to call someone woke than to ponder out loud why they can't be as racist as they'd like. It also has the aspect of divide and conquor purposefully built in, and when mixed with the English love of all things toff, it works as we're seeing.

[Swan]

The retail and service sectors are actually still growing, service sector still substantially, physical retail is stagnating but it's not falling (yet). Yes there have been company and store closures with certain brands and "the highstreet" is flagging, but the sector overall isn't in decline and so there aren't fewer jobs requiring experienced retail staff. The massive increase in food bank use simply can't be attributed to retail job losses.

That said, I haven't seen any solid data on what the cause IS so can't make any concrete statements about fault. HOWEVER, the most likely culprits are increasing cost of living and (especially) increasing cost of housing as a percentage of income leaving less money for other things and increasing difficulty for other things after essential bills. These are the main factors in increasing child poverty, and increasing child poverty is one of the major factors in increasing foodbank usage.

[edit to add]

Why this is relevant; The Government absolutely COULD be doing more to control ballooning property prices, rents and household fuel costs.

What you've added to my argument i agree with. House pricing, the lack of affordable housing, and the lack housing in general has played a huge part too.

bib - Yep i'll happily agree with that.

[user104658]

There isn't any Corbyn faction left, so I completely disagree with you saying there is a husk. The left have been completely ejected and sidelined. This current labour party should be a centrist/labour rights paradise. Where is the Corbynism coming from within the party?

Within the party (as in the party membership) there is still a massive Corbyn support base... I personally know people who are committed Corbynists and are heavily active within the party (people who were at events rubbing shoulders with Corbyn himself 2 years ago). "The Party" in this sense is not the active career politicians of the party who I agree have been actively purged. But then, again, with that I would say there's a difference between the SMALL proportion of politically engaged people knowing this element has been purged, and the bulk of the general voting public knowing this. I would guess from some pretty anecdotal evidence that the bulk of voters are not aware of how quickly this has happened, and they will associate Labour with Corbynesque policies and actions for a good few years.

If voters still see Corbyn as the problem with labour, then it's interesting they would wait for him to leave before taking it out on the party, because Corbyn had his own party working against him from the minute he took over, and never once performed this badly, and his policies are still extremely popular when polled. I agree to an extent but you could argue that they haven't "waited for him to leave" - the party never did well under Corbyn, and the fact that they're doing even worse now can surely be attributed to them losing many of his supporters whilst failing to gain back many of his skeptics. This is why a flip-flopping party is always going to be in decline... every time they flip they lose some support, and then when they flop, it doesn't all come back.

There is a simpler explanation that the country is lurching dangerously to the right, and with the soapbox and media amplifying the same dangerous non-conformist buzzwords into their mics everyday, it is the natural conclusion, when coupled with a narcissistic pm and his cabal actively looking to take advantage of the situation for themselves.

Absolutely there is a concerning slide to the right and of course Tories are going to be scrabbling to take advantage; sadly, they do it rather well and people are successfully being hoodwinked into believing that the Tories aren't just "unconcerned for the poor" - but that they have concern for anyone other than the actually-wealthy.

I think though there's a very real and very problematic shying-away when it comes to examining and acknowledging WHY this surge in sympathies for the right is happening, WHY there's been a foothold for the Tories to exploit in the first place. Why is their tune reaching so many ears? What fears are they exploiting to gain that support (and it is, always, down to fear). Identity politics, "right-think", moral absolutism and tribalism and some of the worst and most aggressive aspects of left-leaning political rhetoric play into this in HUGE ways and it's going to be unstoppable for as long as people dogmatically refuse to acknowledge it. Are there bigots attached to it? Of course, yes, but there are also huge numbers of people who think of themselves more as individualists/libertarians who are prepared to "join the battle against it" and (very very sadly) many who don't fall into that category but are worried enough by the push towards anti-intellectualism to abandon Labour, who have (in the past) been keen to support it, out of ... "wokeness". Disingenuous support for something they mistakenly believe is wildly popular. These people will never vote Tory but they're being siphoned off. To the SNP up here. To the Greens and even it seems back to the Lib Dems down south. Which will always leave the Tories with disproportionate power because of FPTP voting.

I believe the use of wokeness is little more than a method to delegitimise anyone that speaks up against the regime. The courts are woke according to Boris and Priti, folks saying don't be racist are woke according to Andrew Neil, and on and on it goes.

It's easier to call someone woke than to ponder out loud why they can't be as racist as they'd like. It also has the aspect of divide and conquor purposefully built in, and when mixed with the English love of all things toff, it works as we're seeing.

Of course it's over-simplified and weaponised but it's not the first term that has been or will be and if that makes terms off-limits we'll just be in a constant battle to find new words to sum up the same things. The problem comes when people want to scoff, be dismissive, say "Pfft u are just a woke!" as a shut-down tactic. I don't think that should stop a term being examined to see if it is in any way "a real thing", or preclude discussion of whther or not it might be a bad thing. To try to ignore that anti-intellectualism, populism, moral absolutism and group-think are huge problems on the left is ultimately not going to help anyone. Are there comparable issues on the right? Yes of course there are ... but that's not really the point. You don't ignore your own house's problems because the neighbours have similar issues.

[The Slim Reaper]

Within the party (as in the party membership) there is still a massive Corbyn support base... I personally know people who are committed Corbynists and are heavily active within the party (people who were at events rubbing shoulders with Corbyn himself 2 years ago). "The Party" in this sense is not the active career politicians of the party who I agree have been actively purged. But then, again, with that I would say there's a difference between the SMALL proportion of politically engaged people knowing this element has been purged, and the bulk of the general voting public knowing this. I would guess from some pretty anecdotal evidence that the bulk of voters are not aware of how quickly this has happened, and they will associate Labour with Corbynesque policies and actions for a good few years.

Of course there would be support for Corbyn within what should be a left wing party, but a look at the membership numbers shows they are falling through the floor. Labour are putting themselves in a political no mans land by not standing for anything. Starmer has dropped his election pledges, not Corbyn or the left. Again, Corbyn's policies were always more popular than the party when the gbp is polled. It's way too simplistic to even attempt to put this on "well the voters didn't know that Corbyn wasn't there" when we've seen Starmers poll numbers, and the constant freefall. The same voters that had him as popular when he took over, can't now, with a straight face or a modicum of honesty try and say that his popularity has fallen because of Corbyn.

I agree to an extent but you could argue that they haven't "waited for him to leave" - the party never did well under Corbyn, and the fact that they're doing even worse now can surely be attributed to them losing many of his supporters whilst failing to gain back many of his skeptics. This is why a flip-flopping party is always going to be in decline... every time they flip they lose some support, and then when they flop, it doesn't all come back.

The party hasn't done well for decades, apart from a brief spell in the 90's - 00's so there has again been a consistent downward trend. Again, it's just not true to put that on Corbyn, especially when he did well in 17, and that's when we saw the media and his own party turn completely crazy with the lies. I've never seen any politician offer hope to young people in the same way Corby did/does, because his message resonates. People are free to like or dislike Corbyn, I think he had faults as a politician, but I'm not really interested in listening to the constant lies about him or his character.

Absolutely there is a concerning slide to the right and of course Tories are going to be scrabbling to take advantage; sadly, they do it rather well and people are successfully being hoodwinked into believing that the Tories aren't just "unconcerned for the poor" - but that they have concern for anyone other than the actually-wealthy.

I think though there's a very real and very problematic shying-away when it comes to examining and acknowledging WHY this surge in sympathies for the right is happening, WHY there's been a foothold for the Tories to exploit in the first place. Why is their tune reaching so many ears? What fears are they exploiting to gain that support (and it is, always, down to fear). Identity politics, "right-think", moral absolutism and tribalism and some of the worst and most aggressive aspects of left-leaning political rhetoric play into this in HUGE ways and it's going to be unstoppable for as long as people dogmatically refuse to acknowledge it. Are there bigots attached to it? Of course, yes, but there are also huge numbers of people who think of themselves more as individualists/libertarians who are prepared to "join the battle against it" and (very very sadly) many who don't fall into that category but are worried enough by the push towards anti-intellectualism to abandon Labour, who have (in the past) been keen to support it, out of ... "wokeness". Disingenuous support for something they mistakenly believe is wildly popular. These people will never vote Tory but they're being siphoned off. To the SNP up here. To the Greens and even it seems back to the Lib Dems down south. Which will always leave the Tories with disproportionate power because of FPTP voting.

Lets cut to the chase. You mentioned this in the other thread about moral absolutes, but until you expand on what areas you think these exist, then I'll never really know the definitions and parameters of the discussion, so would ask that you're specific in what areas these exist.

In my opinion, this lurch to the right isn't complicated. We've seen it in pretty much every place in the world at different times on both the left and right. A government creates a crisis at home that attacks the needs of it's population (austerity), attacking mostly the lives of the working and middle classes, but it has this ready made solution and group to blame (Immigrants, the EU), and they know how to fix it with multiple silver bullets - leave the eu to fund our NHS, end wokeness (whatever that fcuking word is supposed to mean), all the time dividing and conquering as they go along. It's not a new thing.

Of course it's over-simplified and weaponised but it's not the first term that has been or will be and if that makes terms off-limits we'll just be in a constant battle to find new words to sum up the same things. The problem comes when people want to scoff, be dismissive, say "Pfft u are just a woke!" as a shut-down tactic. I don't think that should stop a term being examined to see if it is in any way "a real thing", or preclude discussion of whther or not it might be a bad thing. To try to ignore that anti-intellectualism, populism, moral absolutism and group-think are huge problems on the left is ultimately not going to help anyone. Are there comparable issues on the right? Yes of course there are ... but that's not really the point. You don't ignore your own house's problems because the neighbours have similar issues.


Again, I need to see your working outs, because although I don't necessarily disagree, at the moment there aren't any specifics.

[Tom4784]

And you're just assuming i think the Tories have done better than what Labour would have. Im saying there is no way to know.

You're free to point out where i said the tories have done a great job, and that Labour would have been terrible. But again, i didn't say anything of the sort.

And I never said you did, try reading what I actually said before you try to ram words down my throat.

I rejected the idea that you said that any government would have changed the landscape of the retail or work environment and the economy, I said that was baseless conjecture that had the added effect of defending the current government whether you meant that or not. We don't know how other party led governments would have reacted so saying that it would have been no different regardless of the leadership is baseless conjecture.

Try arguing against what I'm actually saying, not what your imagination says I wrote.

[user104658]

Lets cut to the chase. You mentioned this in the other thread about moral absolutes, but until you expand on what areas you think these exist, then I'll never really know the definitions and parameters of the discussion, so would ask that you're specific in what areas these exist.

Gender and general identity philosophy, race issues, issues relating to and interwoven with mental health (slightly more complex and highly related to identity politics)... to give specific examples... but it’s broader than that.

As a summing up, it’s whenever and wherever someone is deciding what “feels right” and then creating the intellectual structures to prove that it is in fact right after the fact. Deciding on the conclusion and then developing the thinking to fit the conclusion rather than the other way around. Then the secondary aspect where it becomes about group identity; it becomes not even about deciding what feels right as a starting point, but rather “accepting the group consensus on what is right” and going from there. It doesn’t apply to everyone who holds any opinion or set of opinions obviously but it is easy to spot because people immediately fall apart when asked to elaborate. They can’t offer any real advice on reaching their conclusion because they didn’t reach the conclusion for themselves, so the result is frustrated (often young) people insisting “what I think is right, you just think as I think!” Whilst being totally unable to tackle the “why?”.

Again that’s where my thoughts on it get complicated. Often the conclusions are perfectly sound and reasonable. But the aggression that comes with frustration at being unable to justify those conclusions when pushed is significant and offputting . So people have to be categorised, and some people are right, and some are wrong, and they are the enemy.

It’s not a partisan left-right issue it applies across the board. A gammon is no better-reasoned than a woke. But the key point is that both are fundamentally positive that they are RIGHT, based mostly on things they have been told rather than their own reasoning, and being asked for their reasoning is deemed an offensive challenge and will most likely see you labelled as [something] and others warned that you are [something].

But yeah basically my observation (worry?) is that I see a lot of the same types of people with the same types of thinking (or lack of thinking) right across the political spectrum, and that is the real problem. That is the massive well of emotion-driven crude oil that the politicians are more than happy to exploit.

The major differences are that the driving factor on the left is the concept of moralism and group-wellbeing whereas the right tends towards impulses for selfishness and individualism.

I’d argue that that’s why the right finds it so much easier to “get the numbers” too... at the base level, humans are instinctually driven towards selfish gains; the survival of self first and foremost and then small groups with close ties. Genuine concern “for mankind” or larger groups isn’t something that comes to people easily and actually REQUIRES a deeper level of philosophical and introspective thought. Divide and conquer is part of it but divide and conquer isn’t even difficult when all you actually have to do is distract and people will automatically tend towards self-interest.

[GoldHeart]

It doesn't help that there's so much Tory bias everywhere , especially in the media.

Labour are not taken seriously anymore, and it doesn't help the fact that Starmer might aswell be Tory, he's a complete snakey tool and I don't like him.

[arista]

John McDonnell
said on Marr BBC1HD
he (Starmer) needs to give Jeremy Corbyn back his whip?

[Crimson Dynamo]

SIR – There is an irony to Labour losing its core “working-class” vote in the Hartlepool by-election.

The party was created to defend the rights of workers against the elite ruling class but has evolved to become the party of and for that class, now made up of (among others) university-educated metropolitans, the judiciary, education institutions, the Civil Service and the BBC.

Dr David Slawson
Nairn

SIR – Sir Keir Starmer stood shoulder to shoulder with Jeremy Corbyn, seeking to make him prime minister in full knowledge of his economic illiteracy, contempt for patriotism and support for anti-Semitic factions. He voted to remain in the EU – and, had things gone his way, we would be part of its vaccine programme.

What judgment. The British people have no difficulty in seeing him for what he is: a master of hindsight and opportunism.

David Crigman QC
Birmingham

[The Slim Reaper]

Gender and general identity philosophy, race issues, issues relating to and interwoven with mental health (slightly more complex and highly related to identity politics)... to give specific examples... but it’s broader than that.

As a summing up, it’s whenever and wherever someone is deciding what “feels right” and then creating the intellectual structures to prove that it is in fact right after the fact. Deciding on the conclusion and then developing the thinking to fit the conclusion rather than the other way around. Then the secondary aspect where it becomes about group identity; it becomes not even about deciding what feels right as a starting point, but rather “accepting the group consensus on what is right” and going from there. It doesn’t apply to everyone who holds any opinion or set of opinions obviously but it is easy to spot because people immediately fall apart when asked to elaborate. They can’t offer any real advice on reaching their conclusion because they didn’t reach the conclusion for themselves, so the result is frustrated (often young) people insisting “what I think is right, you just think as I think!” Whilst being totally unable to tackle the “why?”.

Again that’s where my thoughts on it get complicated. Often the conclusions are perfectly sound and reasonable. But the aggression that comes with frustration at being unable to justify those conclusions when pushed is significant and offputting . So people have to be categorised, and some people are right, and some are wrong, and they are the enemy.

It’s not a partisan left-right issue it applies across the board. A gammon is no better-reasoned than a woke. But the key point is that both are fundamentally positive that they are RIGHT, based mostly on things they have been told rather than their own reasoning, and being asked for their reasoning is deemed an offensive challenge and will most likely see you labelled as [something] and others warned that you are [something].

But yeah basically my observation (worry?) is that I see a lot of the same types of people with the same types of thinking (or lack of thinking) right across the political spectrum, and that is the real problem. That is the massive well of emotion-driven crude oil that the politicians are more than happy to exploit.

The major differences are that the driving factor on the left is the concept of moralism and group-wellbeing whereas the right tends towards impulses for selfishness and individualism.

I’d argue that that’s why the right finds it so much easier to “get the numbers” too... at the base level, humans are instinctually driven towards selfish gains; the survival of self first and foremost and then small groups with close ties. Genuine concern “for mankind” or larger groups isn’t something that comes to people easily and actually REQUIRES a deeper level of philosophical and introspective thought. Divide and conquer is part of it but divide and conquer isn’t even difficult when all you actually have to do is distract and people will automatically tend towards self-interest.

There are definitely areas of both agreement and disagreement here, but I'm going to say we need to break them down further. For example, what is the moral absolute you think is objectional when it comes to racial equality, and what thinking argument needs to be made to justify it? Because for me, that's a pretty surface level issue, it also ignores the fact that these arguments have been back and forth for centuries, and all the previous eugenicist arguments have been completely debunked.

We do find agreement when it comes to gender especially. I rarely ever comment myself in those threads (as an example) because I'm still trying to work out where my own positions on the subject fall. I know what my positions are, but it's where my positions lead where my issues are revealed. For example, I'm for transgender equality, but I don't think they should be taking part in sports, but then exclusion from sports, especially within schools is also pretty damaging imo, but sports are also exclusionary for someone with the wrong body size, or an odour issue. I just haven't seen any satisfying arguments for how these additional issues are resolved, and I do think there is a certain left wing orthodoxy here so i do take your point. Just for a bit of context though, people didn't just start banging out about these rights for a laugh, it was in response to the "blokes in women's bathrooms" brigade. Which of course was a fully thought out, fully reasoned, intellectual discipline.

Same as antifa, which is actually a good example, because if you got 5 lefties in a room, I'd be amazed if you only received one opinion, but to the wider point, antifa didn't just spring up for a laugh, it was in response to the increasing popularity of neo-nazis and fascism, which now holds power over one of the 2 parties in America.

I do think there are issues where morality exists and where simple right and wrong are in combat, but cognitive dissonance is a thing for a reason, and I do think you've both-sides this a little too far.

Finally, I'd just like to thank you for taking part in a good faith discussion, an increasingly and depressingly rare thing these days on here.

[joeysteele]

I can agree with lots of points made by Slim and TS.
I find both fascinating in their posts because they analyse in generally a positive way.

Labour has big problems in my view at present however not beyond turning around.

I was no supporter of Corbyn myself.
I make no secret that I see someone like Andy Burnham or even Wes Streeting as people I'd vote for leader of the party.

However I loved Corbyn's policies, in 2017, on the doorsteps people really liked the vision of them.
Hence his removing May's overall majority.

I was dismayed that after over a year, Starmer hasn't made a major policy statement.
You don't need to be in a hall with your invited audience to do that.

I feel Labour would be even more foolish to dump a lot of Corbyn's policies.

However, voters need to hear something.
Starmer has as yet neither thrown out all the last manifesto and hasn't created any new one either.

Of course Labour like Britain but Britain is a very divided place all round.
To its Nations and the regions of England too.

I can't say I've been impressed with a good proportion of voters in England lately.

However, and on this thread too.
As a Labour party member, we need to hear the criticisms as well as any praise.

I know Slim's views, and many others.
I know Slim is disappointed re the loss of Corbyn.

So as a member of Labour, learning the thinking of those on here I agree with and don't, is important.

The post above from LT too, who it's no secret I usually disagree bigtime with.
As to the first letter in it.
I think has much relevance and truth there.

I am happy to say I'm confused where Labour are at present, and have no idea where we're going on policy.

I wish Labour was more like the SNP with clear direction and policies.
The SNP moving more left than right, with it's social policies, independence issue aside.
Has been in power after the last 4 elections.
Being clear and decisive with an incredible in my view leader.

Why Labour faffs about, saying loads of words that go over voters heads.
Rather than get the short sharp message slogans to get interest, I haven't a clue.

In the party, I and many others are pushing to get PR adopted as policy.
That would be a start.

It would send the Cons into absolute panic.

However, I'm looking forward on this thread and others, as being in the Labour party, I'm too close to the problem, so can't see the solutions.
So it's interesting to read others views, not just praise but the criticisms too.
Because that's where learning comes from.

I mean, that anyone, foe or friend of Labour even needing to ask does Labour like Britain.
Is worrying in itself.
However, with the thinking you can take voters for granted by some in Labour, and thinking like Starmer that publicity stunting, is how to capture support, with vague and even incomplete policy making.
I'm not even surprised at the question.

So thanks to those offering their observations, from the polar opposite view to Labour and from those who I still think would, like myself, who would like to have a party again to be proud of as still Labour supporters, and those who aren't any longer but who could be won back.
If they see a genuine effort and credibility.
Neither of which I now fear will come from under Starmer's leadership.

[Beso]

If hating anyone with a different opinion is hating the uk.

Then yeah, I guess they and their supporters do.

[joeysteele]

If hating anyone with a different opinion is hating the uk.

Then yeah, I guess they and their supporters do.

Except for this comment of course as usual which I refute completely.
Because I've had massive personal insults for my support of Labour on here by hard-line Con supporters.

Funny how the Cons wouldn't be accused of not liking Britain though.

[The Slim Reaper]

I can agree with lots of points made by Slim and TS.
I find both fascinating in their posts because they analyse in generally a positive way.

Labour has big problems in my view at present however not beyond turning around.

I was no supporter of Corbyn myself.
I make no secret that I see someone like Andy Burnham or even Wes Streeting as people I'd vote for leader of the party.

However I loved Corbyn's policies, in 2017, on the doorsteps people really liked the vision of them.
Hence his removing May's overall majority.

I was dismayed that after over a year, Starmer hasn't made a major policy statement.
You don't need to be in a hall with your invited audience to do that.

I feel Labour would be even more foolish to dump a lot of Corbyn's policies.

However, voters need to hear something.
Starmer has as yet neither thrown out all the last manifesto and hasn't created any new one either.

Of course Labour like Britain but Britain is a very divided place all round.
To its Nations and the regions of England too.

I can't say I've been impressed with a good proportion of voters in England lately.

However, and on this thread too.
As a Labour party member, we need to hear the criticisms as well as any praise.

I know Slim's views, and many others.
I know Slim is disappointed re the loss of Corbyn.

So as a member of Labour, learning the thinking of those on here I agree with and don't, is important.

The post above from LT too, who it's no secret I usually disagree bigtime with.
As to the first letter in it.
I think has much relevance and truth there.

I am happy to say I'm confused where Labour are at present, and have no idea where we're going on policy.

I wish Labour was more like the SNP with clear direction and policies.
The SNP moving more left than right, with it's social policies, independence issue aside.
Has been in power after the last 4 elections.
Being clear and decisive with an incredible in my view leader.

Why Labour faffs about, saying loads of words that go over voters heads.
Rather than get the short sharp message slogans to get interest, I haven't a clue.

In the party, I and many others are pushing to get PR adopted as policy.
That would be a start.

It would send the Cons into absolute panic.

However, I'm looking forward on this thread and others, as being in the Labour party, I'm too close to the problem, so can't see the solutions.
So it's interesting to read others views, not just praise but the criticisms too.
Because that's where learning comes from.

I mean, that anyone, foe or friend of Labour even needing to ask does Labour like Britain.
Is worrying in itself.
However, with the thinking you can take voters for granted by some in Labour, and thinking like Starmer that publicity stunting, is how to capture support, with vague and even incomplete policy making.
I'm not even surprised at the question.

So thanks to those offering their observations, from the polar opposite view to Labour and from those who I still think would, like myself, who would like to have a party again to be proud of as still Labour supporters, and those who aren't any longer but who could be won back.
If they see a genuine effort and credibility.
Neither of which I now fear will come from under Starmer's leadership.

Hi Joey.

just to point out, Corbyn was and is a thoroughly decent man, and you will know perhaps more than anyone else on here (apart from me) exactly how his party, especially right wing labour worked against him and the left when there was a real chance of gaining power in 17, and then on to 19, which after the scare he gave them, made sure he would be destroyed by the Murdoch and tory press. He never hid in fridges when the world was lying about him and he never dodged Andrew Neil.

Give me another British politician leading a party with his record and policies and I will happily vote for them again, but labour are now in a destructive phase and will take a few years to get themselves back together imo, and reintroducing Mandelson just highlights how devoid of ideas and decency the party is.

That said, if labour enter a non-tory political coalition with PR front and centre, I would support the party through that election cycle again, but until then, I'll be a greenie for the foreseeable.

[Beso]

Except for this comment of course as usual which I refute completely.
Because I've had massive personal insults for my support of Labour on here by hard-line Con supporters.

Funny how the Cons wouldn't be accused of not liking Britain though.

Tough ****..

We have all had personal insults on here

[The Slim Reaper]

Except for this comment of course as usual which I refute completely.
Because I've had massive personal insults for my support of Labour on here by hard-line Con supporters.

Funny how the Cons wouldn't be accused of not liking Britain though.

The too busy to attend pandemic meetings because i'm busy getting donors to pay for my flat, and refusing to feed poor children party really loves Britain.

[joeysteele]

Tough ****..

We have all had personal insults on here

Indeed it is tough.
Doesn't make it right either however

[Beso]

Indeed it is tough.
Doesn't make it right either however

We agree on that..

[jet]

The too busy to attend pandemic meetings because i'm busy getting donors to pay for my flat, and refusing to feed poor children party really loves Britain.

Yet the Cons are winners and Labour are losers. If Labour and their supporters can come with why this is other than the mantras 'Con voters are thick sheeplike idiots who are up Boris's backside' which I often see on here, then that might set them on the right path. Labour are the eternal victims - who wants to vote for weakness?

[jet]

Hi Joey.

just to point out, Corbyn was and is a thoroughly decent man,


An IRA supporter decent? Never....and that's all I'll say about that, I've been through all this in the past on here and not going there again, but just couldn't let that statement pass.....

[Tom4784]

Yet the Cons are winners and Labour are losers. If Labour and their supporters can come with why this is other than the mantras 'Con voters are thick sheeplike idiots who are up Boris's backside' which I often see on here, then that might set them on the right path. Labour are the eternal victims - who wants to vote for weakness?

Honestly, this post bolstered what I always say about the UK being spineless boot lickers. 'who wants to vote for weakness?' Being corrupt, ****ing up a Covid response by not responding to it when they had months of warnings in advance to do so and being embroiled with endless scandals makes the Tories the 'strong' option?

'It's okay Boris, no matter how much you **** up, we'll vote for you!' That's not strength, that's being a ****ing doormat.

Hell, the whole suggestion of people voting tory to vote for the winner, glory hunting with ****ing political parties, just paints a grim picture of what a tory voter looks like.

Someone who is that deep into a cult mindset can't be saved by being nice to them, they'll vote for the tory boot on their neck, just as long as they think the people they hate will get it worse.

[Beso]

Hated by his party, which is a plus for labour.

[Beso]

Honestly, this post bolstered what I always say about the UK being spineless boot lickers. 'who wants to vote for weakness?' Being corrupt, ****ing up a Covid response by not responding to it when they had months of warnings in advance to do so and being embroiled with endless scandals makes the Tories the 'strong' option?

'It's okay Boris, no matter how much you **** up, we'll vote for you!' That's not strength, that's being a ****ing doormat.

Hell, the whole suggestion of people voting tory to vote for the winner, glory hunting with ****ing political parties, just paints a grim picture of what a tory voter looks like.

Someone who is that deep into a cult mindset can't be saved by being nice to them, they'll vote for the tory boot on their neck, just as long as they think the people they hate will get it worse.

You dont like boris...we get that.

But there is no need to be rude about people who think the wee weird shaped bodied man, and his toosly hair ain't all about being for Great Britain.

Inclusive.


Not like labour, and its fading, angry voters who still attack the honest families with false, desperate bile.

[The Slim Reaper]

Yet the Cons are winners and Labour are losers. If Labour and their supporters can come with why this is other than the mantras 'Con voters are thick sheeplike idiots who are up Boris's backside' which I often see on here, then that might set them on the right path. Labour are the eternal victims - who wants to vote for weakness?

My post was actually in response to another post. I've given pretty nuanced opinions throughout this thread if you'd cared to read them. We go from terrorist sympathisers to victims in the space of a couple of days in your posts, so it's always interesting to see what nonsense you'll come up with next.

If only politics was a meaningless game where your side winning meant you'd be in for bunny rabbits and rainbows, but unfortunately that's not reality, and we all have to live under the party that did exactly what you found objectionable in my post.

Vote for strength - the battle cry of every overachieving fascist.

[The Slim Reaper]

An IRA supporter decent? Never....and that's all I'll say about that, I've been through all this in the past on here and not going there again, but just couldn't let that statement pass.....

Yeah we went through all this before, and you revealed you knew nothing then, just like now. Enjoy your evening.

[joeysteele]

Hi Joey.

just to point out, Corbyn was and is a thoroughly decent man, and you will know perhaps more than anyone else on here (apart from me) exactly how his party, especially right wing labour worked against him and the left when there was a real chance of gaining power in 17, and then on to 19, which after the scare he gave them, made sure he would be destroyed by the Murdoch and tory press. He never hid in fridges when the world was lying about him and he never dodged Andrew Neil.

Give me another British politician leading a party with his record and policies and I will happily vote for them again, but labour are now in a destructive phase and will take a few years to get themselves back together imo, and reintroducing Mandelson just highlights how devoid of ideas and decency the party is.

That said, if labour enter a non-tory political coalition with PR front and centre, I would support the party through that election cycle again, but until then, I'll be a greenie for the foreseeable.

Nothing much wrong with the Greens Slim.
However this is why PR is needed too to get proper representation of them in parliament..

I really hope Labour take the bull by the horns on PR and make it policy.
That will ensure in my view now better government and more representative government too.

I agree with your post.
I never myself believed Corbyn was a bad person.
As you say a few more seats down for the Cons and a few more for Labour in 2017, would have had the Cons out.
His policies then, much like 2019 would have re shaped the UK.
With support of the SNP and Plaid Cymru and the Green too.

He did connect, the media got the shock of their lives, I agree then went into even more overdrive against him.

The anti-Semite rubbish ridiculous.
The massive inquiry didn't find him anti Semitic.
That bile is what is grossly offensive.

Equally, Like you I groaned at Mandelson being wheeled out again too.
I wouldn't have been Labour in the Blair years.
I actually rated Brown more than Blair.

[Beso]

In sure the snp and their one policy agenda would have been right there with Corbyn.

[jet]

Honestly, this post bolstered what I always say about the UK being spineless boot lickers. 'who wants to vote for weakness?' Being corrupt, ****ing up a Covid response by not responding to it when they had months of warnings in advance to do so and being embroiled with endless scandals makes the Tories the 'strong' option?

'It's okay Boris, no matter how much you **** up, we'll vote for you!' That's not strength, that's being a ****ing doormat.

Hell, the whole suggestion of people voting tory to vote for the winner, glory hunting with ****ing political parties, just paints a grim picture of what a tory voter looks like.

Someone who is that deep into a cult mindset can't be saved by being nice to them, they'll vote for the tory boot on their neck, just as long as they think the people they hate will get it worse.

Ummm….oh dear. So anyway, do you have an actual answer as to why so many working class are deserting Labour more than ever and voting Tory other than the usual childish insults which just smack of ‘they are a thick and spineless cult because they don’t think like me’.
Boris is just another Tory leader, no point in heaping all the blame on him, we have to go back to 1974 to find a ‘bona fide’ Labour leader because the one and only successful Labour leader since then was Blair and wasn’t he seen by many to be more centre right than centre left really?
....and I've already told you I don't vote Tory so I haven't a vested interest. I'm from N. Ireland and have always voted SDLP.
So do you have anything other than mindless insults to offer as to why this was/is?

[jet]

Yeah we went through all this before, and you revealed you knew nothing then, just like now. Enjoy your evening.

I know plenty about Corbyn, I was in a position to know, my father knew him well. You just don't believe it, which is fine, why should you. Doesn't make my knowledge any less true though. My last comment on this.

[Tom4784]

You dont like boris...we get that.

But there is no need to be rude about people who think the wee weird shaped bodied man, and his toosly hair ain't all about being for Great Britain.

Inclusive.


Not like labour, and its fading, angry voters who still attack the honest families with false, desperate bile.

You can say what you want about labour, I don't support them so well done on your latest failure to try to rile me, maybe you'll be successful one day, I won't hold my breath.

You see, I'm not like the tory voters who are loyal to the tories to the end. Parties should be loyal to the voters, voters shouldn't be loyal to a party. Tory voters don't get that which is why they constantly vote for a party that ****s on them. It doesn't matter what Boris and the others do, because Tory voters will always vote for them regardless. They will always do what they are told, and I will freely criticise the **** out of them for doing so.

Don't like it? Aww diddums. I have no time for pearl clutching.

[Tom4784]

Ummm….oh dear. So anyway, do you have an actual answer as to why so many working class are deserting Labour more than ever and voting Tory other than the usual childish insults which just smack of ‘they are a thick and spineless cult because they don’t think like me’.
Boris is just another Tory leader, no point in heaping all the blame on him, we have to go back to 1974 to find a ‘bona fide’ Labour leader because the one and only successful Labour leader since then was Blair and wasn’t he seen by many to be more centre right than centre left really?
....and I've already told you I don't vote Tory so I haven't a vested interest. I'm from N. Ireland and have always voted SDLP.
So do you have anything other than mindless insults to offer as to why this was/is?

What you vote for is irrelevant, I wasn't commenting on you. You mentioned Tory voters, I gave my thoughts on Tory voters. It's really that simple.

Why are you getting so offended, why are you so offended by my views on tories if you aren't one? It's quite frankly bizarre.

Honestly, if you want to act like I'm victimising you, go do your routine to someone who might actually care. We all know how this is going to go anyway, you're gonna respond with your latest attempt to turn one of my phrases against me, I'll embarrass you by pointing out that you didn't get the phrase or the context right, you'll get mad, scream a bunch of insults and then act like you're not gonna read my posts for about five minutes until you can't resist the urge to respond. It's all very predictable (cue your attempt to make out that I'm predictable instead, because 'I know you are, but what am I?' is your go to move in every discussion).

I'm bored. I'm just so bored of the disengenuine bull****, bored of the pearl clutching. It's just all too easy, give me a challenge. Just once.

[arista]

On The SkyNewsHD Paper Review
they are saying the young support Labour Now.


Leaving most others
to the Winning Conservatives

[jet]

What you vote for is irrelevant, I wasn't commenting on you. You mentioned Tory voters, I gave my thoughts on Tory voters. It's really that simple.

Why are you getting so offended, why are you so offended by my views on tories if you aren't one? It's quite frankly bizarre.

Honestly, if you want to act like I'm victimising you, go do your routine to someone who might actually care. We all know how this is going to go anyway, you're gonna respond with your latest attempt to turn one of my phrases against me, I'll embarrass you by pointing out that you didn't get the phrase or the context right, you'll get mad, scream a bunch of insults and then act like you're not gonna read my posts for about five minutes until you can't resist the urge to respond. It's all very predictable (cue your attempt to make out that I'm predictable instead, because 'I know you are, but what am I?' is your go to move in every discussion).

I'm bored. I'm just so bored of the disengenuine bull****, bored of the pearl clutching. It's just all too easy, give me a challenge. Just once.

I did, and you ran away from answering it with your usual diversionary BS and bleating about how you expect to get insulted - while throwing out insults. Be big enough to take what you give out without always playing the victim. I'm not offended, I'm participating in a debate.
As for pearl clutching, it comes from one very angry side, and it isn't mine; the little beads must be scattered all over the floor in their thousands. :laugh:

[Tom4784]

I did, and you ran away from answering it with your usual diversionary BS and bleating about how you expect to get insulted - while throwing out insults. Be big enough to take what you give out without always playing the victim.
As for pearl clutching, it comes from one very angry side, and it isn't mine; the little beads must be scattered all over the floor in their thousands. :laugh

Like clockwork, a whole bunch of 'I know you are, but what am I?'. I don't think you even realise you're doing it at this point, it's just an automatic response.

The fact you tried to make out that I'm trying to act like a victim is hilarious because it shows that you have, once again, completely garbled your attempt at reading what I wrote. I wasn't bemoaning your insults, I was mocking the fact that you're entirely predictable, as proven by your response which I called out before you wrote it.

Also, you REALLY need to learn what my phrases mean before you use them, I'm honestly feeling bad for you at this point.

[jet]

Like clockwork, a whole bunch of 'I know you are, but what am I?'. I don't think you even realise you're doing it at this point, it's just an automatic response.

The fact you tried to make out that I'm trying to act like a victim is hilarious because it shows that you have, once again, completely garbled your attempt at reading what I wrote. I wasn't bemoaning your insults, I was mocking the fact that you're entirely predictable, as proven by your response which I called out before you wrote it.

Also, you REALLY need to learn what my phrases mean before you use them, I'm honestly feeling bad for you at this point.

That's all very fascinating and riveting stuff right there I'm sure :bored: but the question wasn't about me and how I choose to respond to your diversions. Can you now answer the question which you have avoided thus far. It was a genuine question asked because your usual 'tory voters are thick and will continue to vote for them even when they s*** on them yadda yadda' doesn't really explain why previous dedicated Labour supporters are now voting for the Cons - from a Tory detractors point of view. If you don't know, just say so, maybe someone else will oblige.

[user104658]

There are definitely areas of both agreement and disagreement here, but I'm going to say we need to break them down further. For example, what is the moral absolute you think is objectional when it comes to racial equality, and what thinking argument needs to be made to justify it? Because for me, that's a pretty surface level issue, it also ignores the fact that these arguments have been back and forth for centuries, and all the previous eugenicist arguments have been completely debunked.

We do find agreement when it comes to gender especially. I rarely ever comment myself in those threads (as an example) because I'm still trying to work out where my own positions on the subject fall. I know what my positions are, but it's where my positions lead where my issues are revealed. For example, I'm for transgender equality, but I don't think they should be taking part in sports, but then exclusion from sports, especially within schools is also pretty damaging imo, but sports are also exclusionary for someone with the wrong body size, or an odour issue. I just haven't seen any satisfying arguments for how these additional issues are resolved, and I do think there is a certain left wing orthodoxy here so i do take your point. Just for a bit of context though, people didn't just start banging out about these rights for a laugh, it was in response to the "blokes in women's bathrooms" brigade. Which of course was a fully thought out, fully reasoned, intellectual discipline.

Same as antifa, which is actually a good example, because if you got 5 lefties in a room, I'd be amazed if you only received one opinion, but to the wider point, antifa didn't just spring up for a laugh, it was in response to the increasing popularity of neo-nazis and fascism, which now holds power over one of the 2 parties in America.

I do think there are issues where morality exists and where simple right and wrong are in combat, but cognitive dissonance is a thing for a reason, and I do think you've both-sides this a little too far.

Finally, I'd just like to thank you for taking part in a good faith discussion, an increasingly and depressingly rare thing these days on here.

Just want to say that I am planning to respond to this when I get a proper chance, currently wrestling with WFH over a broken internet connection/phone tethering which is a nightmare. The thread has gone to the dogs a little but it's an interesting discussion in places so do want to formulate a response.

It's lead to some interesting discussions with my wife about moral absolutism and post-structuralism. We're so metal.

[Livia]

Having a weak opposition is terrible news for Britain. I am not a Labour supporter, but they need to sort themselves out before the next general election. Their last two leaders are a joke. No one was voting for Corbyn and his terrorist mates nor will they vote for Sir Kier, who just "took responsibility" for the disastrous election results last week by sacking Angela Rayner.

[joeysteele]

I'm pleased to hear that Angie Raynor is getting possibly 3 major roles now.

Maybe media pressure there or the outcry from some of us in the Party.

Good grief as a member I get irritated more with my party's leaders than most others bar Johnson.

[bots]

Apart from the disfunction itself within the labour party, they come across like they are preaching to the public and thats never going to get any votes. Part of that comes from the fact that often the things they want to enact are not clear and concise, they require several minutes of explanation and that just causes eyes to glaze over :laugh:

The conservatives have been very successful with their 3 word slogans, people remember them. Ask a labour mp for a slogan and it will be 20 pages long :laugh:

[user104658]

The conservatives have been very successful with their 3 word slogans, people remember them. Ask a labour mp for a slogan and it will be 20 pages long :laugh:

That is true but also so, so depressing.

[bots]

That is true but also so, so depressing.

i think a lot of labours problem is that their policy comes from lots of diverse and inclusive committees, so the end product is just mush when it finally appears. Tony Blair was successful in labour because he didn't let a key message get diluted

[Livia]

I agree about the three word slogans, although "Strong and Stable" took a bit of a battering as I recall.

[Livia]

I agree about the three word slogans, they have been successful, although as I recall, "Strong & Stable" took a bit of a battering, and deservedly so.

[Ammi]

That is true but also so, so depressing.

…it is as you say, really quite saddening to see …

…’getting it done’…regardless of the impact on the Good Friday Agreement…(…for instance…)…because our Boris would be ‘dead in a ditch’…although that is four words, I have to say…)…than think of a delay on Brexit…not good for his career, that delay…anyways, we won’t even touch on the Covid ones ….

[Crimson Dynamo]

i dont see anyone complaining when twitter said only 140 characters please

hopefully its not popular anymore.....

:skull:

[user104658]

I agree about the three word slogans, they have been successful, although as I recall, "Strong & Stable" took a bit of a battering, and deservedly so.

It was quite amusing that they ran a campaign on "stable" and then immediately afterwards all the cards got thrown up in the air :joker:

[joeysteele]

Apart from the disfunction itself within the labour party, they come across like they are preaching to the public and thats never going to get any votes. Part of that comes from the fact that often the things they want to enact are not clear and concise, they require several minutes of explanation and that just causes eyes to glaze over :laugh:

The conservatives have been very successful with their 3 word slogans, people remember them. Ask a labour mp for a slogan and it will be 20 pages long :laugh:


Surprisingly I agree, particularly with the last paragraph.

Blair with his and that song playing, '' Things can only get Better''.
Actually had people singing along at his rallies.

I agree too, the policy has to be clear as to be identified.
Then the further analysis able to be more concisely expressed.

Mind you , I can't talk with how long it takes me to make a point.:joker:

[Crimson Dynamo]

clunk, click, every trip

[Tom4784]

That's all very fascinating and riveting stuff right there I'm sure :bored: but the question wasn't about me and how I choose to respond to your diversions. Can you now answer the question which you have avoided thus far. It was a genuine question asked because your usual 'tory voters are thick and will continue to vote for them even when they s*** on them yadda yadda' doesn't really explain why previous dedicated Labour supporters are now voting for the Cons - from a Tory detractors point of view. If you don't know, just say so, maybe someone else will oblige.

What question are you bleating on about? I either missed it or I've answered it and you're doing that thing you do where you don't like an answer so you ask again and again in hopes of getting an answer you like.

[user104658]

What question are you bleating on about? I either missed it or I've answered it and you're doing that thing you do where you don't like an answer so you ask again and again in hopes of getting an answer you like.

This is the one, I suspect. I mean I think it's been answered dozens of times already but... here it is nonetheless.

do you have an actual answer as to why so many working class are deserting Labour more than ever and voting Tory other than the usual childish insults which just smack of ‘they are a thick and spineless cult because they don’t think like me’.

[Tom4784]

Well, I've answered that a bunch already. Murdoch and right wing media have made constant fools of the public and the public are too glad to go along with it. We live in an era of post truth, we live in a time where one chief brexiter famously said 'We had enough of experts' when all the major financial experts in the world were united in saying that brexit would be a disaster. We live in an age where voters favour fairy tales over reality, where they'll gladly listen to a narrative that paints Tories as victims while ignoring their evidence of wrongdoing.

The answer to your question, Jet, is the same as always. We are a spineless country that accepts incompetence and ignores the facts when it suits us.

[user104658]

Personally I've become convinced that a HUGE part of it is as simple as ... people like to be "on the winning team". Tories are seen as unbeatable, people want their "team" to win, thus they will vote Tory every time, thus making the Tories unbeatable. A closed loop.

You see similar with big sports teams. People want to be supporting the teams that win most often, so they support the teams that are winning, so those teams have more cash, buy the best players, and continue to win.

[Tom4784]

Personally I've become convinced that a HUGE part of it is as simple as ... people like to be "on the winning team". Tories are seen as unbeatable, people want their "team" to win, thus they will vote Tory every time, thus making the Tories unbeatable. A closed loop.

You see similar with big sports teams. People want to be supporting the teams that win most often, so they support the teams that are winning, so those teams have more cash, buy the best players, and continue to win.

Wouldn't surprise me, after all, Jet did say something to that effect about the tories.

It paints a very grim image of the average Tory voter if that's the case.

[Ammi]

….this is an interesting article…I won’t post the whole article, it’s just there if anyone would care to read…(…yes I know it’s a link to an article, not my own thoughts…)…but it feels quite directly relevant to what Dezzy is saying…


https://newrepublic.com/article/161328/successful-political-party-world-tories-conservatives-britain-boris-johnson

…this particularly will give the vibe of the piece…which yeah, fits with what Dezzy is saying…


Even now, after a brutal plague year in which Johnson has led Britain to one of the highest death rates per capita in the world, the Conservatives are still comfortable favorites to win the next election. Britain has lost nearly 120,000 lives to the virus so far, is currently eight weeks into a national lockdown that will last until at least April, and faces the worst economic forecasts of any country in the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development bar Argentina. The government’s blunders have been blatant, repetitive, and devastating. And yet, mirroring government messaging, a majority of people say that the public, rather than politicians, are to blame. The Conservative Party marches on.

[jet]

Playing the blame game….and nobody is to blame but the virus itself. I’ll always say that any UK Gov would have tried its best, got things wrong, got things right...leaders are human beings, imagine a human being making blunders! ....who here would have wanted to be in Boris Johnsons or any leaders shoes? He isn’t a pandemic expert, he could only take advice and direction from this expert and that expert and hope he had got it as right as he could. Maybe posters here could have done it all better if he had only asked for their advice?

Boris had presided over the probably the most successful vaccination programme in the world, if we had had Labour and were still in the EU, thousands upon thousands more would have died, we would still be in the doldrums, doesn't that count at all?

[Crimson Dynamo]

….this is an interesting article…I won’t post the whole article, it’s just there if anyone would care to read…(…yes I know it’s a link to an article, not my own thoughts…)…but it feels quite directly relevant to what Dezzy is saying…


https://newrepublic.com/article/161328/successful-political-party-world-tories-conservatives-britain-boris-johnson

…this particularly will give the vibe of the piece…which yeah, fits with what Dezzy is saying…


Even now, after a brutal plague year in which Johnson has led Britain to one of the highest death rates per capita in the world, the Conservatives are still comfortable favorites to win the next election. Britain has lost nearly 120,000 lives to the virus so far, is currently eight weeks into a national lockdown that will last until at least April, and faces the worst economic forecasts of any country in the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development bar Argentina. The government’s blunders have been blatant, repetitive, and devastating. And yet, mirroring government messaging, a majority of people say that the public, rather than politicians, are to blame. The Conservative Party marches on.




WHO WOULD HAVE THOUGHT THAT THE HARD LEFT NEW REPUBLIC WOULD HAVE THAT OPINION? :laugh:

[jet]

Well, I've answered that a bunch already. Murdoch and right wing media have made constant fools of the public and the public are too glad to go along with it. We live in an era of post truth, we live in a time where one chief brexiter famously said 'We had enough of experts' when all the major financial experts in the world were united in saying that brexit would be a disaster. We live in an age where voters favour fairy tales over reality, where they'll gladly listen to a narrative that paints Tories as victims while ignoring their evidence of wrongdoing.

The answer to your question, Jet, is the same as always. We are a spineless country that accepts incompetence and ignores the facts when it suits us.

But isn’t it capitalism that has made the western world so prosperous?
That prosperity came from hard work and ambition, which a Conservative Gov rewards. People aren’t spineless, they want to feel they can aspire to better things, and a Con gov goes hand in hand with aspirations, the rising above your circumstances and bettering yourselves.
People don’t want a party that see themselves and their supporters as victims, they want a can - do attitude and Boris for his part does that very well.

People trust the Cons, they know what to expect….and Labour haven’t had a leader in years that they can say ‘He/she is the one I’d trust to take me over to Labour’.

[The Slim Reaper]

WHO WOULD HAVE THOUGHT THAT THE HARD LEFT NEW REPUBLIC WOULD HAVE THAT OPINION? :laugh:

Which bit is wrong?

[Crimson Dynamo]

Which bit is wrong?

The government’s blunders have been blatant, repetitive, and devastating.

That is an opinion and its a fairly standard hard-left one

and its one the GBP have no time for as witness the recent elections

[The Slim Reaper]

But isn’t it capitalism that has made the western world so prosperous?
That prosperity came from hard work and ambition, which a Conservative Gov rewards. People aren’t spineless, they want to feel they can aspire to better things, and a Con gov goes hand in hand with aspirations, the rising above your circumstances and bettering yourselves.
People don’t want a party that see themselves and their supporters as victims, they want a can - do attitude and Boris for his part does that very well.

People trust the Cons, they know what to expect….and Labour haven’t had a leader in years that they can say ‘He/she is the one I’d trust to take me over to Labour’.

It's a lot more complicated than that. As an example, capitalism as a concept did and would have no problem with child labour, it was progressive taxation that helped create the benefits that used to exist for yours and post war generations. Reaganomics and the rw orthodoxy that tax cuts for the wealthy equals everyone does better (despite there oly being contrary evidence), that wealth inequality is now on the way back to the era of barons and poor houses.

[The Slim Reaper]

The government’s blunders have been blatant, repetitive, and devastating.

That is an opinion and its a fairly standard hard-left one

and its one the GBP have no time for as witness the recent elections

Well we know as a fact that Boris was too busy decorating to attend his meetings, we know for a fact he wanted and tried to let covid run rampant, and unchecked. It's not opinion when it's backed up by the data. You saying they're only opinions is an opinion.

The rest is just meaningless to the discussion.

[Ammi]

Well we know as a fact that Boris was too busy decorating to attend his meetings, we know for a fact he wanted and tried to let covid run rampant, and unchecked. It's not opinion when it's backed up by the data. You saying they're only opinions is an opinion.

The rest is just meaningless to the discussion.

…as has been said many times as well…governments/government leaders stand up to accountability …but that never will be the case in a ‘one government country’ …thats never going to give us a good quality leadership at all, as it hasn’t…and that would be the same if we’d had all of those years with any other government ….but Boris is a particularly self serving leader…

[The Slim Reaper]

…as has been said many times as well…governments/government leaders stand up to accountability …but that never will be the case in a ‘one government country’ …thats never going to give us a good quality leadership at all, as it hasn’t…and that would be the same if we’d had all of those years with any other government ….but Boris is a particularly self serving leader…

We see everyone rightfully mocking Starmers non-attempt at taking responsibility, whereas the man bragging about shaking hands as the pandemic hit here, hasn't attended one funeral, or phoned one family of the covid dead.

[Ammi]

We see everyone rightfully mocking Starmers non-attempt at taking responsibility, whereas the man bragging about shaking hands as the pandemic hit here, hasn't attended one funeral, or phoned one family of the covid dead.

… he’s kept his vaccine targets obviously and that’s wonderful ….but it doesn’t wipe away everything that came before and his accountability to those grieving families who will never see their loved ones again…

…and there’s the children he was shamed into feeding as well by a football player…and the lack of PPE/protection for our health care workers, despite the advisements….

[Liam-]

I thought we’ve learned by now that Boris is responsible for nothing he does, there’s always someone else to blame

[joeysteele]

… he’s kept his vaccine targets obviously and that’s wonderful ….but it doesn’t wipe away everything that came before and his accountability to those grieving families who will never see their loved ones again…

…and there’s the children he was shamed into feeding as well by a football player…and the lack of PPE/protection for our health care workers, despite the advisements….

100% agree.
I think it obscene any would now overlook the disaster of the past because he's got one single element right now.

It's an insult to those who've died.
Also to their grieving loved ones.

This is a moment of positivity he has, until the full public inquiry comes, once he DARES to hold it that is and not keep putting it off.

[Crimson Dynamo]

I thought we’ve learned by now that Boris is responsible for nothing he does, there’s always someone else to blame

like with Keir and Angela Rayner

[The Slim Reaper]

like with Keir and Angela Rayner

Keir has been torn to shreds for it, mostly by people in his own party/former lab members. That's the difference.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Much has been said and written in recent days about “Long Corbyn” and
the after-effects on Labour’s perception by voters of having been led by a man
seen as a dangerous extremist. And amid all this, the constant heckling and
criticism from the hard Left provides an entertaining Greek chorus on Starmer’s
efforts to detoxify his party.

His greatest challenge, however, is Johnson’s continued and – to many Labour
strategists – baffling popularity among voters, as illustrated by the
Government’s very respectable performance in last week’s elections.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/05/10/problem-could-sir-keir-starmer-simply-not-politician/

[Ammi]

100% agree.
I think it obscene any would now overlook the disaster of the past because he's got one single element right now.

It's an insult to those who've died.
Also to their grieving loved ones.

This is a moment of positivity he has, until the full public inquiry comes, once he DARES to hold it that is and not keep putting it off.

..I mean, seriously…The Labour Party…(…and I’m no Labour gal…)…and Kier Starmer have no accountability or answerability for one single life, for being shamed into not feeding our children or ignoring advice to prepare and protect our NHS workers,p….and they’re the party being asked do they actually like a nation…what about the party who has placed the harm on a nation…?…no questions for them…?…

[bots]

as much as people like to criticize Boris, the tories have won the last 4 general elections and done well in local council elections. So, the tory party don't seem to have a problem connecting with voters, labour does. Saying bad Boris, isn't going to win them an election

[joeysteele]

..I mean, seriously…The Labour Party…(…and I’m no Labour gal…)…and Kier Starmer have no accountability or answerability for one single life, for being shamed into not feeding our children or ignoring advice to prepare and protect our NHS workers,p….and they’re the party being asked do they actually like a nation…what about the party who has placed the harm on a nation…?…no questions for them…?…

None Ammi.
In fact rewards to him it seems for it.

There'll be the usual he's charismatic and a winner tripe soon.

Blair was charismatic and a winner too.

Neither were impressive, or should have been.
Iraq is all Blair's remembered for.

Maybe the bubble will burst for this waste of space too once the public inquiry into covid eventually delivers.

[The Slim Reaper]

Much has been said and written in recent days about “Long Corbyn” and
the after-effects on Labour’s perception by voters of having been led by a man
seen as a dangerous extremist. And amid all this, the constant heckling and
criticism from the hard Left provides an entertaining Greek chorus on Starmer’s
efforts to detoxify his party.

His greatest challenge, however, is Johnson’s continued and – to many Labour
strategists – baffling popularity among voters, as illustrated by the
Government’s very respectable performance in last week’s elections.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/05/10/problem-could-sir-keir-starmer-simply-not-politician/

We pretending you don't keep going back to Corbyn for my benefit?

[Crimson Dynamo]

as much as people like to criticize Boris, the tories have won the last 4 general elections and done well in local council elections. So, the tory party don't seem to have a problem connecting with voters, labour does. Saying bad Boris, isn't going to win them an election

quite right bots

the elections tell their tale

----------------------------

It shouldn't be a shock to the Left-wing media that people vote Tory

The broadcast media and the cultural elite continue to exist in an echo
chamber detached from the public

I think Boris can safely re-tile the kitchen now. Much of the broadcast media
was convinced his No 10 makeover would hurt him in last Thursday’s
elections: we weren’t far off a Newsnight reconstruction with Lewis Goodall,
dressed as Carrie, running around an animated John Lewis with a can of
petrol. But the mood on Have I Got News for You on Friday, recorded when
the votes weren’t counted but obvious nevertheless, was funereal. Why, the
host asked, didn’t Wallpapergate cut through? Given that this show created
the Boris phenomenon, much like The Apprentice invented Donald Trump, the
confusion is strange.

The beat goes on. Someone at Sheffield University says Darwin justified
white supremacy. A school has reported its own chaplain to an anti-terror
unit. And among the stories on the BBC website, at the time of writing, is a
23-year-old girl who has come out as asexual. How many elections must the
Left lose – how many viewers, how many readers? – before the penny drops
that many people find all this irrelevant? Or that when they vote Tory, it’s
not because they don’t care about standards in public life, but that they can’t
see the scandal in this instance?

And far from being a bunch of little Hitlers, they are drawn to a Tory party
that has cleverly occupied the centre ground of cultural feeling, a centre
ground, incidentally, that is much more liberal than it once was. Just not
completely bonkers.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/05/10/shouldnt-shock-left-wing-media-people-vote-tory/

and its that middle ground that Labour crave..

[Tom4784]

Playing the blame game….and nobody is to blame but the virus itself. I’ll always say that any UK Gov would have tried its best, got things wrong, got things right...leaders are human beings, imagine a human being making blunders! ....who here would have wanted to be in Boris Johnsons or any leaders shoes? He isn’t a pandemic expert, he could only take advice and direction from this expert and that expert and hope he had got it as right as he could. Maybe posters here could have done it all better if he had only asked for their advice?

Boris had presided over the probably the most successful vaccination programme in the world, if we had had Labour and were still in the EU, thousands upon thousands more would have died, we would still be in the doldrums, doesn't that count at all?

I'm so sick of this point of view of 'bless Boris, he's doing his best.' Would you say the same if it was Corbyn in charge, making the same decisions? I think not.

If a leader can't lead, they should step aside. I'm tired of people making excuses for incompetence and being all like 'WELL WHY DON'T YOU TRY RUNNING THE COUNTRY?'. The answer to that is that, unlike all the PMs in recent memory, I'm smart enough to know I wouldn't be able to run a country, so I don't. If only Boris possessed that same wisdom.

Presiding over the most successful vaccination effort in the world means little to the 100k+ who have already died in the UK, and who might not have died if we didn't wait until March 2020 for Boris to actually do something when he and the rest of the higher ups in the government knew how bad things would be back in Dec19/Jan20.

I for one don't tolerate epic **** ups and corruption with an 'aw bless him, he's doing his best.' I demand the best from the leadership and if they don't deliver, they don't deserve praise. When a world leader ****s up, people die. That's the reality here. If they can't handle they heat, they can get the **** out of the kitchen and make way for someone who can.

[Tom4784]

But isn’t it capitalism that has made the western world so prosperous?
That prosperity came from hard work and ambition, which a Conservative Gov rewards. People aren’t spineless, they want to feel they can aspire to better things, and a Con gov goes hand in hand with aspirations, the rising above your circumstances and bettering yourselves.
People don’t want a party that see themselves and their supporters as victims, they want a can - do attitude and Boris for his part does that very well.

People trust the Cons, they know what to expect….and Labour haven’t had a leader in years that they can say ‘He/she is the one I’d trust to take me over to Labour’.

The cons don't serve the people, they serve the rich which is why public services are constantly being defunded on the tories and government contracts created for the express purpose of giving money to their friends are rife. The government made out if couldn't feed school children last year, but it handed millions to tory backers in the form of these duff government contracts.

I can understand a rich person voting Tory, they're voting in their own best interest, but the tories have managed to convince the working and middle classes to vote against their own best interests and it's honestly pathetic.

Your point of view in this post is very rosy, and sadly unrealistic. The tories do not give people the tools to succeed, they stick the most vulnerable and in need of help among us in cruel schemes aimed at sanctioning them and denying them funds they need to survive. They don't offer opportunities, they crush the poorest among us for the entertainment and satisfaction of other tory voters that convince themselves that they are better, that they aren't just a few bad days away from being one of those people they villify.

The tories make fools of the working and middle classes, and those classes keep going back regardless. Spineless.

[Tom4784]

I thought we’ve learned by now that Boris is responsible for nothing he does, there’s always someone else to blame

We can't expect Tories to hold their messiah accountable.

[jet]

I'm so sick of this point of view of 'bless Boris, he's doing his best.' Would you say the same if it was Corbyn in charge, making the same decisions? I think not.

If a leader can't lead, they should step aside. I'm tired of people making excuses for incompetence and being all like 'WELL WHY DON'T YOU TRY RUNNING THE COUNTRY?'. The answer to that is that, unlike all the PMs in recent memory, I'm smart enough to know I wouldn't be able to run a country, so I don't. If only Boris possessed that same wisdom.

Presiding over the most successful vaccination effort in the world means little to the 100k+ who have already died in the UK, and who might not have died if we didn't wait until March 2020 for Boris to actually do something when he and the rest of the higher ups in the government knew how bad things would be back in Dec19/Jan20.

I for one don't tolerate epic **** ups and corruption with an 'aw bless him, he's doing his best.' I demand the best from the leadership and if they don't deliver, they don't deserve praise. When a world leader ****s up, people die. That's the reality here. If they can't handle they heat, they can get the **** out of the kitchen and make way for someone who can.

So the leaders of all the other countries did everything perfectly then and avoided loss of life did they? Of course not. They were all fighting an invisible enemy in unprecedented circumstances and I’m afraid the superhuman leader who never does anything wrong that you insist on doesn’t exist and never will.

No countries went into lockdown before March 2020, the same as the UK did as far as I am aware...and you aren’t criticizing the EU’s disastrous vaccine failures which will have cost thousands of lives. Why not?
You appear to only care about the lives lost from the ‘incompetence’
of someone you hate, but not from the incompetence of those you don’t.

[jet]

We can't expect Tories to hold their messiah accountable.

It's you who wants a messiah but you are only going to get a fallible human being no matter what party they lead.

[jet]

Presiding over the most successful vaccination effort in the world means little to the 100k+ who have already died

It means little to the thousands who have already died so just let thousands more die, it means little that they are now being saved, unlike in the EU, eh? Listen to yourself.

[Tom4784]

So the leaders of all the other countries did everything perfectly then and avoided loss of life did they? Of course not. They were all fighting an invisible enemy in unprecedented circumstances and I’m afraid the superhuman leader who never does anything wrong that you insist on doesn’t exist and never will.

No countries went into lockdown before March 2020, the same as the UK did as far as I am aware...and you aren’t criticizing the EU’s disastrous vaccine failures which will have cost thousands of lives. Why not?
You appear to only care about the lives lost from the ‘incompetence’
of someone you hate, but not from the incompetence of those you don’t.

What other countries did is largely irrelevant, it doesn't change the fact that lives were lost when this government knew how bad things were gonna be way before they got bad and did nothing. It doesn't matter if other countries had the same failures, it doesn't change the fact that this government could have taken pre-emptive measures, and they did not.

You may accept mediocrity from the people running this country, but I do not. I have standards.

I don't give a **** about the EU's rollout, it's irrelevant to how we are doing, you're just engaging in endless distractions by making things out to be a competition and that our failures don't matter as long as we're winning and that's a grotesque thing to do. I'm sure everyone who has lost someone is so happy to know that we're doing better than other countries when it comes to vaccinations, I'm sure that makes their loss so much easier that people are treating this pandemic like a ****ing league table.

I care about lives being lost that could have been saved, I don't allow distractions for the easily pleased to take away from the fact that we handled this pandemic badly, that we should have done better and that it was down to the government being slow on the uptake.

Your last non-points just shows how little you understand of what I'm saying, as usual.

[Tom4784]

It's you who wants a messiah but you are only going to get a fallible human being no matter what party they lead.

I just want a competent government that isn't corrupt, I'm not after a messiah. It's a shame you're so used to corruption and incompetence that you think someone who would be just competent would worthy of being called a 'messiah.' It's such a shame your standards have fallen so much that you'd accept the bull**** this government has engaged in.

Again, 'I know you are but what am I?' just isn't working for you. Try something new for a change.

[Tom4784]

It means little to the thousands who have already died so just let thousands more die, it means little that they are now being saved, unlike in the EU, eh? Listen to yourself.

I didn't say that, learn the basics of how to ****ing read before you shove such a vile sentiment down my throat.

Where did I say we should let more people die? I said that the vaccine efforts don't undo the damage that's been done by a sluggish government that was all too slow to act when all this began, when they knew in advance how bad things would be?

How the **** did you turn that into 'let more people die lol!'. I'm so ****ing tired of having to explain things multiple times to you because you can't tell the difference between what I actually wrote and the version you've just dreamt up in your head. Sort it the **** out, Jet.

[bots]

i wish this thread could concentrate on the issues with the labour party, they are the ones not being elected and are not even a realistic opposition party. We can moan about the tories, but unless labour become a viable alternative option, we will have tory governments for the foreseeable future

[Beso]

I think it's all this finger pointing and ridiculing by the labour party and its supporters against anyone who shows any sort of support for the tory party that's made the Tory party as strong as it is.

[joeysteele]

i wish this thread could concentrate on the issues with the labour party, they are the ones not being elected and are not even a realistic opposition party. We can moan about the tories, but unless labour become a viable alternative option, we will have tory governments for the foreseeable future

As a Labour party member, I was interested in the points being raised reasonably on the issues and problems Labour has.
..... and it has problems indeed in certain areas of England definitely.

You bots were making good points I mentioned here and elsewhere, because as a member of the Party, I believe we need to listen to the professional politicians less and to the voters who are in disarray of a political homeland now.


You and I don't agree on politics, we haven't much on the pandemic.
However I've seen good thinking, reasoned from you on this topic.

However I hoped to learn more from those others who can and do try to reason.
I'm not interested in those who just hate Labour anyway.

Labour has to get it's house in order, we as members of it need to listen to those of opposing reasoned views, not just pathetic insulting of the party and it's supporters..

To learn from listening a better way forward.

The Cons sadly are the natural party of government in the nation.
Although that's mainly only in England now.
Labour were rabid and string oppositions in the main.
Then got their opportunities in government, more often once the Cons badly failed, not necessarily because of Labour itself.

I got some things to take from the earlier comments on this thread.
I agree however, and am desperately sad to admit to it, England will inflict only Con government across all the Nations of the UK unless Labour listen and give ourselves a massive shake to really wake up.

Scotland is lost for as long as the SNP is strong.
Labour votes are massively in the SNP camp.
I've no issue with that.
The SNP policies aside from independence are policies I support and in line with Labour's.
No way with the Cons.

Labour still is held onto as to Wales.

It's the some areas of England that's a growing problem for Labour.

Which is why, I and a growing number of party members and even Labour MPs now.
Favour PR for elections.

I really believe absolute power is not a good thing.
Either in the Labour years to 2010 or since then to now.

If I had full influence and power in the Party, I'd be advocating now, to make PR the key policy going forward.
It's a policy which would get the support of the other Parties elected to Westminster and their supporters, including the awful DUP even.

The Cons would be in absolute panic since it would likely remove any Party again gaining absolute power on only around 40% of voters votes cast ever.
Only the Cons and the majority but not all, of their supporters would be against PR.

True and fair elections, or words to that effect, could be a policy that unites to bring it about.
Leaving only the Cons sidelined by it.
Yes Labour under PR would never likely get an overall majority to govern alone.
However neither again would the Cons either.

That would be the prize of PR for me

[Ammi]

…I think that it is important to look at both parties because it’s all entwined in how the voting is being cast, it all has equal relevance…and a serving government should always be questioned and challenged that ‘they’re working in the best interest of the people….’…and not self serving …we always say if constituents have issues etc…you should speak to your MP and raise this issue because that’s absolutely right and the same would apply to a country leader and even more so…especially when that leader has expressed some very questionable things in terms of whether they ‘actually like Britain’ or demographics of Britain with herd immunity talk, we were outraged and that he himself observed little personal safety as a ‘leader’ when we were facing a life threatening pandemic virus….

…anyways, I think there seem to be lots of ‘float votes’ atm and those are the votes that Labour should be taking but they aren’t so they seriously must look at that and why they can’t gain that confidence …Kier Starmer for me is not the guy to ‘save Labour’….I think that maintaining that leading government position is so much easier than taking it…that would require a very strong and popular leader and his popularity seems more ‘Liberal Democrat’ than Labour….I don’t feel he’s been that successful in challenging his opposition in a difficult time that challenge has been so important…so how could we have faith in him as a country strength, he really is just not that person ….and now that we seem to be coming through COVID, I guess there could be a better the devil you know or better the devil you went through with and came through with for some as well…some of those ‘float votes’….


….I really dislike politics because if we have a leader that isn’t so good then it impacts all of us, regardless of who we vote for….and if we have a strong leader working for the people, then we all feel that strength and benefit….


…I’m not sure who would be a good leader for Labour to start climbing those steep steps, Joey would be the better one to say with that…

[joeysteele]

Well Ammi for me, the times I've had a vote for leader of Labour since joining it, has been Andy Burnham, I hold massive respect for Andy.

Or I'd go for someone who really seems to connect we, although not so well known at present.
Someone like Wes Streeting.

On the female possible candidates.
Rachel Reeves commands a lot of respect across parliament and politics I think.

I would love to see those 3 as a front line team.

[bots]

what are the chances of keir still being in place for the next ge? I would say pretty high, in which case, they have to work with what they have. This may be controversial, but with labour, even Keir's hands are tied. He could be in a position where he has policy thrust upon him that he doesnt agree with, or that he just doesnt want in there and yet he has to go in front of the camera and champion it. I dont really think labour has a leader in the traditional sense. He says he takes full responsibility when things go wrong, but he isn't responsible for policy, which I would say was fundamental to winning votes.

The other side of it, which he can control is communication. That certainly needs an overhaul as i've said before. He isn't a bad communicator, but my advice would be to concentrate on what labour bring to the table and leave it to voters to decide if they don't like Boris

[Beso]

Kiers needs to leave his phone number online so we can all connect with him.

[joeysteele]

Labour doesn't normally get rid of leaders quickly.
Kinnock had 2 elections given to him, after already 2 defeats.

I think Starmer unless he decides to make way, will be leader at the next general election.

Which is why he needs an eye catching key policy.
Such as PR.
Which I think would be a major attraction to voters.
Even moreso the new voters feeding in up to the next general election.

Other policies important too.
That would however I think unite the whole of the opposition Parties to a common aim.
With working together to get Johnson out in order to get it.

Only the Cons would really never adopt PR.
It's really my hope to try to persuade Labour members to push for this as policy at conference.

[jet]

What other countries did is largely irrelevant, it doesn't change the fact that lives were lost when this government knew how bad things were gonna be way before they got bad and did nothing. It doesn't matter if other countries had the same failures, it doesn't change the fact that this government could have taken pre-emptive measures, and they did not.

You may accept mediocrity from the people running this country, but I do not. I have standards.

I don't give a **** about the EU's rollout, it's irrelevant to how we are doing, you're just engaging in endless distractions by making things out to be a competition and that our failures don't matter as long as we're winning and that's a grotesque thing to do. I'm sure everyone who has lost someone is so happy to know that we're doing better than other countries when it comes to vaccinations, I'm sure that makes their loss so much easier that people are treating this pandemic like a ****ing league table.

I care about lives being lost that could have been saved, I don't allow distractions for the easily pleased to take away from the fact that we handled this pandemic badly, that we should have done better and that it was down to the government being slow on the uptake.

Your last non-points just shows how little you understand of what I'm saying, as usual.

What happened in other countries is not largely irrelevant; their loved ones are no less special to them than ours are to us. A life lost is a life lost, no matter which country it is in.
Was the UK the only country in the world who ‘knew’ how bad it was going to get? How do you know they knew exactly how ‘bad’? Why did no European country leader, apart from one, or indeed most other world leaders, not act until March or even much much later? Yes, mistakes and bad decisions and tough choices were made, there always will be with such an unprecedented calamity, and leaders will make decisions based on something they have no prior knowledge of from the bevy of experts who do. At least our PM is presiding over a great success story now and not losing even more lives like the EU leaders.

Never mind, we’ll just insist Boris should have been the greatest from start to finish and gloss over the others because I hate him and this country.

Btw, if Corbyn had acted exactly as Boris did, I’d have felt exactly the same, though to be honest, I wouldn’t have bothered to post about it. :hee:

[arista]

Well many reports are saying, in the Queens Speech
in a min.

The Fixed Parliament to Go
so Johnson can have a Summer General Election
2023.


This giving Labour less time to sort out its internal battles.

[jet]

I didn't say that, learn the basics of how to ****ing read before you shove such a vile sentiment down my throat.

Where did I say we should let more people die? I said that the vaccine efforts don't undo the damage that's been done by a sluggish government that was all too slow to act when all this began, when they knew in advance how bad things would be?

How the **** did you turn that into 'let more people die lol!'. I'm so ****ing tired of having to explain things multiple times to you because you can't tell the difference between what I actually wrote and the version you've just dreamt up in your head. Sort it the **** out, Jet.

Welcome to the club! Now you know what it feels like to have someone thinking they can read your mind and putting words into your mouth which you do all the time. Has that little lesson sorted you out Dezzy?

Anyway, we are never going to agree on this subject and people want to get back to the thread topic so I'm finished with this.

[Beso]

If the uk knew how bad it was going to get they wouldnt have had us all locked down spreading covid in our own homes at the start.

[joeysteele]

Well many reports are saying, in the Queens Speech
in a min.

The Fixed Parliament to Go
so Johnson can have a Summer General Election
2023.

I said he'd do this a while ago

He wants an election out the way before any final conclusions of a public inquiry into his pandemic chaos except for vaccination roll out.

So once that's up and running which will take possibly years in order to hear all the evidence from all concerned and aggrieved.

He would look at an earlier election yes.
Pure deceit but transparently so too.

[arista]

I said he'd do this a while ago

He wants an election out the way before any final conclusions of a public inquiry into his pandemic chaos except for vaccination roll out.

So once that's up and running which will take possibly years in order to hear all the evidence from all concerned and aggrieved.

He would look at an earlier election yes.
Pure deceit but transparently so too.


Yes avoid them, he is planning just that.

[arista]

The Queen Is going Live with
the Conservative Party Speech is about to begin


LBC
SlyNewsHD
BBCnewsHD
BBC1HD
Radio 5

[arista]

A Stronger United Kingdom
than before.


Extend 5G Gigabyte Broadband

[joeysteele]

Yes avoid them, he is planning just that.

Which is why deceit has to be got round by cunning.

A policy to unite all opposition Parties to work together and possibly up to two thirds of voters.
That's one way.

So Labour need to think on that this year and next.
HOWEVER to be bold if it was to look at say PR.

Not promise a referendum, just bring it in for the election after next as manifesto policy.

PR is used in all Scottish, Irish, and Welsh elections.
Police and Crime commissioners.
Plus all Mayoral elections.

All brought in without referenda.

[arista]

[Inequality and conversion therapy plans explained

The government said "measures" will be
brought forward to address racial and ethnic disparities.

It also said it will move to ban conversion
therapy entirely, with new funding,
expected by this summer, to support victims.]

[arista]

New Plan for Immigration Legislation explained

[The government will put forward plans for
a "fairer immigration system" that also deters
criminals facilitating "dangerous and illegal journeys".

It will enable the government to
remove "those with no right to be here" more easily.]


https://news.sky.com/story/queens-speech-2021-live-new-bills-to-be-announced-as-government-sets-out-legislative-agenda-12303219

[arista]

[National Insurance Contributions Bill explained

Eight new freeports are to be built to
create "hubs" for trade and to
regenerate communities, the government said.

Employers in freeports will get National Insurance contributions relief.

The relief will also be introduced for employers
of veterans and for the self-employed who
receive NHS Test and Trace payments.]

[arista]

[Social care proposals to come, but no bill for now

Analysis by Joe Pike, political correspondent

The Queen has set out that the government will
bring forward proposals to reform social care,
but that does not necessarily mean a legislative bill.

Don't forget, the prime minister promised
to ‘fix’ the social care crisis on his first day in office back in 2019.
The proposals are expected later this year.
The issue of funding is one of the central questions
they will need to address.]

[arista]

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2021/05/11/11/42840724-9565639-image-a-52_1620729687838.jpg

[arista]

[Queen's Speech: Immigration overhaul will block asylum for people
who have travelled through 'safe' countries such
as France and Belgium as ministers try to deter Channel crossings]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9565749/Government-confirms-immigration-overhaul-Queens-Speech.html

[arista]

Covid-19 Has halted any Social Care Plans.




BBC2HD Politics Live

[arista]

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2021/05/11/12/42841576-9565639-Boris_Johnson_pictured_leaving_for_Parliament_toda y_has_vowed_to-a-63_1620731039900.jpg

Get a bigger Jacket
you fat sod

[Beso]

Hes actually not that fat tbh.

[arista]

Hes actually not that fat tbh.



Look you can tell that Jacket
is under stress.


He needs a Bigger Jacket
so he can do it up without his Fat Belly
pushing out

[arista]

SNP
Live in Westminster
Claim this Queen's Speech
has Nothing For Scotland.

BBC2HD Politics Live.

[arista]

We are Building Brand New Houses
without the New Green Design Power.

More to Convert?

Why not make them Modern.

[joeysteele]

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2021/05/11/12/42841576-9565639-Boris_Johnson_pictured_leaving_for_Parliament_toda y_has_vowed_to-a-63_1620731039900.jpg

Get a bigger Jacket
you fat sod


He doesn't compliment himself in his dress sense.
I mean honestly he is the leader of a Nation.
Nothing statesmanlike about him.

Old footage I've seen of Michael Foot from the early 80s in documentaries had him looking smarter than Johnson.
Yet the media called him scruffy all the time.

[Beso]

It's just another way that shows how well he connects with the electorate....michael foot was around in a totally different time and era.

[bots]

not really sure what many of the latest posts have to do with labour and how they have lost connection with the GBP :laugh:

[arista]

not really sure what many of the latest posts have to do with labour and how they have lost connection with the GBP :laugh:


Sure I filled it up with the Queens Speech today
I am sure LT, will not mind

[arista]

He doesn't compliment himself in his dress sense.
I mean honestly he is the leader of a Nation.
Nothing statesmanlike about him.

Old footage I've seen of Michael Foot from the early 80s in documentaries had him looking smarter than Johnson.
Yet the media called him scruffy all the time.


Johnson has a Fat belly, still
despite his early runs with his dog.

[Tom4784]

i wish this thread could concentrate on the issues with the labour party, they are the ones not being elected and are not even a realistic opposition party. We can moan about the tories, but unless labour become a viable alternative option, we will have tory governments for the foreseeable future

There's no point, there is no opposition. We're basically an unofficial one party nation and the Tories voter suppression laws will only compound that further. There's no point in acting like anyone can oppose the tories until we confront their endless corruption.

I think it's all this finger pointing and ridiculing by the labour party and its supporters against anyone who shows any sort of support for the tory party that's made the Tory party as strong as it is.

Nah, it's just spineless bootlickers with no standards who vote for corruption and incompetence as long as it's their side that's 'winning'.

[Tom4784]

What happened in other countries is not largely irrelevant; their loved ones are no less special to them than ours are to us. A life lost is a life lost, no matter which country it is in.
Was the UK the only country in the world who ‘knew’ how bad it was going to get? How do you know they knew exactly how ‘bad’? Why did no European country leader, apart from one, or indeed most other world leaders, not act until March or even much much later? Yes, mistakes and bad decisions and tough choices were made, there always will be with such an unprecedented calamity, and leaders will make decisions based on something they have no prior knowledge of from the bevy of experts who do. At least our PM is presiding over a great success story now and not losing even more lives like the EU leaders.

Never mind, we’ll just insist Boris should have been the greatest from start to finish and gloss over the others because I hate him and this country.

Btw, if Corbyn had acted exactly as Boris did, I’d have felt exactly the same, though to be honest, I wouldn’t have bothered to post about it. :hee:

Other countries' failure to act does not vindicate our own failures. To be all like '100k people died when the government knew how bad things would be before it got bad, but a bunch of other countries did nothing either, so it's k.'

Again, it's not a ****ing competition between nations, it's so ****ing vile how people think the losses are acceptable because vaccinations are going well now. Say that to the people who lost loved ones, see how they react. A lot of the world leaders failed to act, and a lot leaders failing doesn't magically make that failure okay.

Instead of trying to brush the failures of this government under the carpet, we should be acknowledging them, the people in charge should look at where they have failed and acknowledge those failings, so that when another pandemic happens, we can learn from this one. People like you who just want to gloss over facts and things you don't like are doomed to repeat the same mistakes.

You say I hate this country, but you're the one that refuses to see how things are, that would gladly ignore the bad and doom us to repeat the same **** over and over if you had your way.

Also, don't talk ****. If Corbyn was in charge you'd be frothing at the mouth and I'd be okay with that, since I'd prefer you to be angry at mediocre leadership than sweeping it's failures under the rug and acting like the sun shines out of their arse. I just wish you had such consistency to criticise leaders you like, instead of making excuses for them.

[Tom4784]

Welcome to the club! Now you know what it feels like to have someone thinking they can read your mind and putting words into your mouth which you do all the time. Has that little lesson sorted you out Dezzy?

Anyway, we are never going to agree on this subject and people want to get back to the thread topic so I'm finished with this.

There's a big ****ing difference between me employing reading comprehension and literally , and you literally ignoring what I'm saying to make out that I want people to die when anyone with a basic level of reading could tell you that's not the case.

I read what you say and present my thoughts based on your words, you disregard what I say and make me out to be a psychopath that wants people to die. If you think that's comparable, then you are beyond help.

[bots]

There's no point, there is no opposition. We're basically an unofficial one party nation and the Tories voter suppression laws will only compound that further. There's no point in acting like anyone can oppose the tories until we confront their endless corruption.


there is an opposition, they are just not very good and the voter system isn't corrupt. It's time to stop making excuses and start fixing the problems with labour

[Tom4784]

there is an opposition, they are just not very good and the voter system isn't corrupt. It's time to stop making excuses and start fixing the problems with labour

It's all a lost cause and how can you stand there and make out that forcing people to bring photo ID to be able to vote isn't corrupt? It's voter suppression, pure and simple.

A party could do and say all the right things and it wouldn't matter because the tories will win regardless. People are too used to voting against themselves. Labour is a flop and will never regain it's footing and no other party will ever get momentum. This is Tory Britain, now, and forever.

[arista]

Dezzy it may not be Forever a Tory Britain


But with a possible 2023 Early Summer General Election
Labour are must get a move on
to sort out internal battles.

[Tom4784]

It doesn't matter, labour will never be electable again, and especially not with Starmer in charge, and no other party is in a position to challenge the cultish hold the tories have on people.

A tory supremacy is all I can see, and they'll slowly erode our rights, our public services and people will gladly vote for them to do so. There's no hope for this country.

[jet]

Other countries' failure to act does not vindicate our own failures. To be all like '100k people died when the government knew how bad things would be before it got bad, but a bunch of other countries did nothing either, so it's k.'

Again, it's not a ****ing competition between nations, it's so ****ing vile how people think the losses are acceptable because vaccinations are going well now. Say that to the people who lost loved ones, see how they react. A lot of the world leaders failed to act, and a lot leaders failing doesn't magically make that failure okay.

Instead of trying to brush the failures of this government under the carpet, we should be acknowledging them, the people in charge should look at where they have failed and acknowledge those failings, so that when another pandemic happens, we can learn from this one. People like you who just want to gloss over facts and things you don't like are doomed to repeat the same mistakes.

You say I hate this country, but you're the one that refuses to see how things are, that would gladly ignore the bad and doom us to repeat the same **** over and over if you had your way.

Also, don't talk ****. If Corbyn was in charge you'd be frothing at the mouth and I'd be okay with that, since I'd prefer you to be angry at mediocre leadership than sweeping it's failures under the rug and acting like the sun shines out of their arse. I just wish you had such consistency to criticise leaders you like, instead of making excuses for them.

Have a look at your own reading comprehension skills before you criticize other peoples. I never said the losses were acceptable, or the sun shone out of anyone's arse, I said that some mistakes and bad decisions were made in an unprecedented situation, that IS acknowledging the failures, but as usual you just ignore that and make up what I'm saying instead of what I am actually saying.
No, I wouldn't like Corbyn to be in charge, but again, IF he did exactly what Boris did in the same circumstances, I would feel the same and certainly wouldn't be frothing at the mouth because it was a horrific position for any leader to have to deal with and get 100% right or if not be accused of killing people. But of course you know what people think better than they do. You are the mind reader extraordinaire and never wrong.

[Beso]

It's all a lost cause and how can you stand there and make out that forcing people to bring photo ID to be able to vote isn't corrupt? It's voter suppression, pure and simple.


Why do people think this?

For me it's the opposite if what people are saying..

Take the fact that the cons have been in power for ages now and wiped the floor with all the other parties during the last election, why on earth would they change the rules for voting when they are winning things so easily atm.

It's a poor excuse to say they are trying to block the youth vote..and very condescending to believe that those youths would have voted labour.


It's all whataboutary.

[jet]

It doesn't matter, labour will never be electable again, and especially not with Starmer in charge, and no other party is in a position to challenge the cultish hold the tories have on people.

A tory supremacy is all I can see, and they'll slowly erode our rights, our public services and people will gladly vote for them to do so. There's no hope for this country.

There is great hope for this country for those who don't see negativity everywhere and don't spend their time continually moaning and whining and blaming.

[Tom4784]

Have a look at your own reading comprehension skills before you criticize other peoples. I never said the losses were acceptable, or the sun shone out of anyone's arse, I said that some mistakes and bad decisions were made in an unprecedented situation, that IS acknowledging the failures, but as usual you just ignore that and make up what I'm saying instead of what I am actually saying.
No, I wouldn't like Corbyn to be in charge, but again, IF he did exactly what Boris did in the same circumstances, I would feel the same and certainly wouldn't be frothing at the mouth because it was a horrific position for any leader to have to deal with and get 100% right or if not be accused of killing people. But of course you know what people think better than they do. You are the mind reader extraordinaire and never wrong.

Ah, so we reached the part where you said you were done with the conversation and then come right back because you can't resist. As I called out earlier in our conversation.

You were making excuses for Boris and you were focused on other countries just so you could make out that we were doing well in comparison which glosses over our failures to handle the pandemic well when it came to lost lives that could have been saved with pre-emptive action that this government chose not to do.

Again, for the 4th or 5th time in this topic you try the 'I know you are, but what am I?' tactic and it fails like it did before because you're just projecting your own endless failures onto me. You're the one with the questionable reading capabilities and the overactive imagination, as evidenced by the fact you tried to make out that I wanted people to die, while I said you were glossing over the losses by focusing on the failures of other countries which do not make our failures lesser in comparison. It's not that hard to grasp, do better.

People only have to mention Corbyn and you go into a terrorist sympathiser tirade, you're only lying to yourself if you're gonna make out that you'd be okay if he was in charge.

[arista]

It doesn't matter, labour will never be electable again, and especially not with Starmer in charge, and no other party is in a position to challenge the cultish hold the tories have on people.

A tory supremacy is all I can see, and they'll slowly erode our rights, our public services and people will gladly vote for them to do so. There's no hope for this country.


Starmer is Live on Parliament right now
Both TV news.


He is attacking, Johnson
well.


At this time it is Sir Keir Starmer, no one else is available,

[arista]

Now Johnson PM
is Speaking
thanking pubs/



Going on about His
One Nation Conservatism

More bloody Slogans

Jabs Jabs Jabs
Jobs Jobs Jobs

[Tom4784]

Why do people think this?

For me it's the opposite if what people are saying..

Take the fact that the cons have been in power for ages now and wiped the floor with all the other parties during the last election, why on earth would they change the rules for voting when they are winning things so easily atm.

It's a poor excuse to say they are trying to block the youth vote..and very condescending to believe that those youths would have voted labour.


It's all whataboutary.

It only makes you look bad if you try to use a phrase you don't understand and you then use it wrong. Nothing about pointing out voter suppression is whataboutery, you simply do not understand the conversation.

You also don't understand voter suppression if you don't think that disallowing people the chance to vote if they don't have photo ID IS NOT suppression. The most common form of photo ID is a driving licence and the simple fact is that there's more tory voters who are drivers than there are of their nearest rivals, Labour who have significantly less voters who can drive.

Preventing people from voting if they don't have photo ID is simply a way of limiting the young, the poor and people who simply do not drive and may not have access to photo ID from engaging in their right to vote and have a say. It's suppression, and that's that.

[Tom4784]

Starmer is Live on Parliament right now
Both TV news.


He is attacking, Johnson
well.


At this time it is Sir Keir Starmer, no one else is available,

He is an ineffective coward and I don't care what he has to say unless it's a resignation.

[arista]

He is an ineffective coward and I don't care what he has to say unless it's a resignation.



Well that could come in a year
they are (Press & Labour people) now saying

[Beso]

It only makes you look bad if you try to use a phrase you don't understand and you then use it wrong. Nothing about pointing out voter suppression is whataboutery, you simply do not understand the conversation.

You also don't understand voter suppression if you don't think that disallowing people the chance to vote if they don't have photo ID IS NOT suppression. The most common form of photo ID is a driving licence and the simple fact is that there's more tory voters who are drivers than there are of their nearest rivals, Labour who have significantly less voters who can drive.

Preventing people from voting if they don't have photo ID is simply a way of limiting the young, the poor and people who simply do not drive and may not have access to photo ID from engaging in their right to vote and have a say. It's suppression, and that's that.

Everyone is receiving FREE voting photo ID. So you can come back in from stopping cars to ask the drivers who they vote for:shocked:

I understand this very well thank you, and it's still ridiculous to accuse the cons of suppressing voting, especially when things are going so well for them with people all over giving up on labour and turning to the cons..if anything they would want more people to vote so they can further widen the gap.

[Tom4784]

Everyone is receiving FREE voting photo ID. So you can come back in from stopping cats to ask the drivers who they vote for:shocked:

I understand this very well thank you, and it's still ridiculous to accuse the cons of suppressing voting, especially when things are going so well for them with people all over giving up on labour and turning to the cons..if anything they would want more people to vote so they can further widen the gap.

I'll believe it when I see it.

It's suppression, because it's suppression. Putting any kind of extra limits on voting will inevitable suppress some people from voting. You really can't argue against this, it's just in vain to do so.

[arista]

https://www.citizencard.com/what-is-a-citizencard


Well it is not this one
as they demand £15

[Beso]

I'll believe it when I see it.

It's suppression, because it's suppression. Putting any kind of extra limits on voting will inevitable suppress some people from voting. You really can't argue against this, it's just in vain to do so.

You were describing it as suppressing votes and voters..when its not.

It will imo, get more peope to vote than not. I think if you have a VOTING ID, you will be more inclined to actually go out and use it on polling day. So it will actually increase the voting numbers.

[Swan]

What's to say all these people without photo id would even vote for Labour anyway (or against the Conservatives). Bit strange to assume.

[arista]

The SNP Westminster leader
is angry at Conservatives Laughing at him.

He keeps saying Scotland back him?
(Not all of them in Scotland)

I am sure some vote SNP
to get the benefits.

[arista]

Jacob Rees-Mogg
Live on Times Radio DAB

Says the Labour Party call Voters Stupid.

[joeysteele]

Jacob Rees-Mogg
Live on Times Radio DAB

Says the Labour Party call Voters Stupid.

I think all but Con hardliners, realise Rees- Mogg just talks mostly tripe.

[Liam-]

Jacob Rees-Mogg
Live on Times Radio DAB

Says the Labour Party call Voters Stupid.

Says the ghoul who said the people who died in Grenfell lacked common sense

[Ammi]

I think all but Con hardliners, realise Rees- Mogg just talks mostly tripe.


…:laugh:…Joey educating us all with the very applicable political terms…

[arista]

Says the ghoul who said the people who died in Grenfell lacked common sense


Be Fair
Slick Liam
he is an MP that made a mistake

[Nicky91]

Jacob Rees-Mogg
Live on Times Radio DAB

Says the Labour Party call Voters Stupid.

pot lits kettle :laugh2:

[Withano]

I mean

If Labour were in charge for ten years, I’d imagine the tories wouldn’t like Britain so much.

It’s kinda the point, they have wildly different ideas.

Duhr (no offence)

[Crimson Dynamo]

I mean

If Labour were in charge for ten years, I’d imagine the tories wouldn’t like Britain so much.

It’s kinda the point, they have wildly different ideas.

Duhr (no offence)

wrong

they would not like Labour

that is the point

duhr (no offence)

[joeysteele]

Well it's equally so that Labour doesn't like the Cons, who are in charge.

Nothing at all to suggest Labour don't like Britain either.
If the Cons wouldn't.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Well it's equally so that Labour doesn't like the Cons, who are in charge.

Nothing at all to suggest Labour don't like Britain either.
If the Cons wouldn't.

Labour’s England problem

The impulse to deride patriotism reflects the party’s distance from many core
voters

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/labour-s-england-problem

2016

and now look

[bots]

there are a whole host of reasons why labour is basically unelectable. They are a mess, and as i said way earlier in the thread, i think ultimately in order for a party to emerge that can compete with the tories, it will need to split up, there are too many competing/warring factions that are fundamentally incompatible with each other on policy. That results in a watered down policy from whatever side you view it from. It's untenable really. They can kid themselves otherwise, but the last few years have shown the deep divides. The tory party has divides too, but the branch in charge don't allow policy to be watered down by the more moderate tories to the same extent as labour.

[Tom4784]

You were describing it as suppressing votes and voters..when its not.

It will imo, get more peope to vote than not. I think if you have a VOTING ID, you will be more inclined to actually go out and use it on polling day. So it will actually increase the voting numbers.

No.

Let's say this free voter ID card is a thing for people who don't have other forms of photo ID, how many hoops will a person have to jump through to get one? Because they won't send you one automatically because it's a photo ID, so a person with a Driver's Licence or a paid form of ID instantly has an advantage over someone who doesn't.

It's no different to the voter suppression taking place in Georgia where for future votes, they are banning giving people food or drink while they wait in line.... in Georgia weather... for potentially hours... That's designed to make it harder for people to vote, thus suppressing certain people from voting.

If you add restrictions or make voting harder for people to do in any way, that has the effect of voting suppression.

The problem is that people won't realistically get an automatic voter ID like they currently get a voting slip ahead of a vote. They'll have to likely pursue getting one when the current process is wholly automatic. You get a slip, you can take it with you, easy.

When you add extra restrictions to the right to vote, it won't increase votes, it'll just decrease votes from certain demographics and that is the intended affect here.

[Tom4784]

What's to say all these people without photo id would even vote for Labour anyway (or against the Conservatives). Bit strange to assume.

I saw a graph on Twitter yesterday, that basically detailed that tory voters are more likely to have Driver's licences than Labour and we can only assume that the same would likely hold true to the Green Party and Lib Dems given their views on the environment.

Aside from speculation about the Greens and Lib Dems, there's no assumptions here. The Photo ID law will more likely have an effect on people who don't vote Tory then people who do.

[joeysteele]

No.

Let's say this free voter ID card is a thing for people who don't have other forms of photo ID, how many hoops will a person have to jump through to get one? Because they won't send you one automatically because it's a photo ID, so a person with a Driver's Licence or a paid form of ID instantly has an advantage over someone who doesn't.

It's no different to the voter suppression taking place in Georgia where for future votes, they are banning giving people food or drink while they wait in line.... in Georgia weather... for potentially hours... That's designed to make it harder for people to vote, thus suppressing certain people from voting.

If you add restrictions or make voting harder for people to do in any way, that has the effect of voting suppression.

The problem is that people won't realistically get an automatic voter ID like they currently get a voting slip ahead of a vote. They'll have to likely pursue getting one when the current process is wholly automatic. You get a slip, you can take it with you, easy.

When you add extra restrictions to the right to vote, it won't increase votes, it'll just decrease votes from certain demographics and that is the intended affect here.

I agree with all this.
Strong points.

[arista]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E1I0fQWVcAM464q?format=jpg&name=small

[arista]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E1I0fQXVEAQshg4?format=jpg&name=small

[arista]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E1I0fqxVoAMxb9l?format=jpg&name=small

[jet]

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/politics/14917805/pets-feelings-protected-law-queens-speech/

PETS are to have their feelings protected by a new law, announced today in the Queen's Speech.

It forms part of the government's plan to help improve "the highest standards of animal welfare" in the UK.
The Bill will increase protection for all pets, sporting and farm animals.
Battery cages for laying hens will be banned, as well as sow stalls and veal crates, and CCTV will be installed in all slaughterhouses in England.
It will also end the export of live animals for fattening and slaughter, bring in more effective powers to tackle live stock worrying, and improve standards in zoos.
The new rules, set out by the monarch, 95, at today's State Opening of Parliament, will "eradicate cruel practices" and strengthen the penalties for those who abuse animals.
Maximum sentences will increase from six months to five years under the Animal Welfare (Sentencing) Act 2021.

Great news! :clap1:

[Swan]

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/politics/14917805/pets-feelings-protected-law-queens-speech/

PETS are to have their feelings protected by a new law, announced today in the Queen's Speech.

It forms part of the government's plan to help improve "the highest standards of animal welfare" in the UK.
The Bill will increase protection for all pets, sporting and farm animals.
Battery cages for laying hens will be banned, as well as sow stalls and veal crates, and CCTV will be installed in all slaughterhouses in England.
It will also end the export of live animals for fattening and slaughter, bring in more effective powers to tackle live stock worrying, and improve standards in zoos.
The new rules, set out by the monarch, 95, at today's State Opening of Parliament, will "eradicate cruel practices" and strengthen the penalties for those who abuse animals.
Maximum sentences will increase from six months to five years under the Animal Welfare (Sentencing) Act 2021.

Great news! :clap1:

I rarely have anything positive to say about the Queen, or any royal for that matter, but this certainly is encouraging news. A decent step in the right direction for animal welfare in this country.

It's only they'd put a stop to their 'shoot weekends' next?!

[arista]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E1LAPy8WYAIXeoB?format=jpg&name=small

[user104658]

I rarely have anything positive to say about the Queen, or any royal for that matter, but this certainly is encouraging news. A decent step in the right direction for animal welfare in this country.

It's only they'd put a stop to their 'shoot weekends' next?!

I mean in this case she's a glorified news anchor - she doesn't actually make laws.

[arista]

This one 2020 Sept


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E1LAPcUXEAAXpEs?format=jpg&name=small

[Swan]

I saw a graph on Twitter yesterday, that basically detailed that tory voters are more likely to have Driver's licences than Labour and we can only assume that the same would likely hold true to the Green Party and Lib Dems given their views on the environment.

Aside from speculation about the Greens and Lib Dems, there's no assumptions here. The Photo ID law will more likely have an effect on people who don't vote Tory then people who do.

Well the easiest way to solve this problem would be to provide those who can prove they can't afford a photo id (being on benefits perhaps) a free one. I don't see many objections. Then there can be no doubt.

[Swan]

I mean in this case she's a glorified news anchor - she doesn't actually make laws.

Yeah, i mean like i say, it's encouraging at least. A step forward. We can only hope this becomes law in the near future.

[Ammi]

….I am confused about this and it being part of a new law when much if not all of it was already law…CCTV in slaughterhouses were …but sadly those laws get disregarded as we sometimes see…and battery cages were banned for quite a few years…?..was this all part of EU laws that we’ve been part of anyway but now they have to be made law again because of Brexit…?…I’m not really understanding fully….

…but though, increase in prison time is a good thing and (…may..)…be more of a deterrent to not observing law….

[Ammi]

…it is being reported that the ban on conversion therapy is not quite as stated in the speech…as in it has been in consultation period before and for a long time and will still have consultation period to consider religious beliefs etc …


..Edit:…it was apparently 2018 and Theresa May’s government who promised to ban conversion therapy…it’s been in consultation period since then and now another consultation period will begin…

[jet]

You were making excuses for Boris and you were focused on other countries just so you could make out that we were doing well in comparison which glosses over our failures to handle the pandemic well when it came to lost lives that could have been saved with pre-emptive action that this government chose not to do.

Again, for the 4th or 5th time in this topic you try the 'I know you are, but what am I?' tactic and it fails like it did before because you're just projecting your own endless failures onto me. You're the one with the questionable reading capabilities and the overactive imagination, as evidenced by the fact you tried to make out that I wanted people to die, while I said you were glossing over the losses by focusing on the failures of other countries which do not make our failures lesser in comparison. It's not that hard to grasp, do better.


I'm not glossing over any losses, our losses were devastating and tragic and so were those the world over. To me, I look at the pandemic as to how it was/is affecting the world as a whole, not just us.
IMO comparisons are valid because that is how you judge any performance. If in most other countries the leaders had had great success in handling it and the UK hadn’t, then harsh criticism of Boris would be certainly justified. If most other countries leaders were having great vaccine success, and we weren’t, ditto.

But from the start, we were all in the same boat. Mistakes were made, bad decisions were made, lessons were learned along the way. The UK took chances with the vaccine orders before they knew if they would even work, that too could have been a big mistake, it turned out wonderfully well.
That’s how I view it, and I’m sorry if you don’t like it. I’m not going to follow your strict posting criteria to 'teach' me how you want me to respond, no matter how many times you hope for a different result. I'll respond as me, the way I choose to.

[joeysteele]

I have to take major issue with those advocating the Labour Party split.
To quote Mrs Thatcher as she once said on a EU issue.
I'd echo her NO, NO, NO.

Maybe from my more suspicious mind, that suggestion comes from either happily identifiable or closet hard-line Con supporters.
Who vote Conservative.
Who know any split would MORE likely ensure endless Con rule.
As in the 80s the great gift to the Cons and Thatcher then, who went on to go from a 43 overall majority to a 144 one and 14 years of further power on top of the 4 years they'd already had.

In this ridiculous and outdated election system..
I think, the Cons will always get on or just above 30% of votes in elections.
The Labour party unlikely to fall under 25% in elections.

There's then the rest of voters who at times float between the 2 parties.
Giving one on or just above 40% with the other in the 30s as a percentage.

So for those advocating the Labour Party split into 2 parties.
They know fine well.
When under this archaic election system, the vote would then swing towards a more social conscience and genuine caring policy making.
That with now 2 parties from the one Labour one.

You'd get let's say anything from 15 to 20 % for one and around 20 to 25% for the other.
Leaving the Cons, in the 30% ranges therefore ensuring under this electoral system.
Only the Cons benefit.

Now, if we had PR the split to 2 Parties makes more sense as the possible usual Labour vote in a favourable election, would be proportionally recognised in numbers of seats too.

No, absolutely no to Labour splitting again as in the 80s to suit Con supporters.
No way.
Labour is a broad church, we do disagree in it, we argue with each other, we make life hard for our leaders.
We do though come together on vital issues to remove things like heartless humiliation of the weakest in society, to the sick, disabled and all vulnerable.
Something those hard- line Con supporters don't care one bit as to what policies their Con government inflicts on them.

[Ammi]

…only to add one post…


…tbf, we not only watched ourselves in horror at Italy but they begged us to listen as Boris delayed and didn’t take heed…that was after the not taking heed in preparing with PPE protection that came before…

…these are just some of the things that contributed to the huge loss of life we have …no amount of preparing well for the vaccine is ever going to change that and change the accountability because that goes to protect the lives we have now, not those who are lost…we also don’t compare to every country either because we’re an island and yet we continued and continued and continued with international travel…

https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/uk-news/boris-johnson-coronavirus-crisis-mistakes-19708170


…our government actions and reactions cannot be applied as any generic…’this was a first time thing’ …because this was not without opportunities to be more prepared to preserve life and yet failed to do so in so many different ways…this isn’t the opinion of ‘Labour’ of Labour supporters either, it’s the opinion of other countries of a huge U.K. COVID failure in loss of life….it’s very interesting to post on other forums with mainly International members and see their absolutely correct outlook of how badly our government and Boris has failed…and yeah, I’m sure that many families with losses will echo that as every single one of us also would…

[arista]

1392385032241750016

[jet]

…only to add one post…


…tbf, we not only watched ourselves in horror at Italy but they begged us to listen as Boris delayed and didn’t take heed…that was after the not taking heed in preparing with PPE protection that came before…

…these are just some of the things that contributed to the huge loss of life we have …no amount of preparing well for the vaccine is ever going to change that and change the accountability because that goes to protect the lives we have now, not those who are lost…we also don’t compare to every country either because we’re an island and yet we continued and continued and continued with international travel…

https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/uk-news/boris-johnson-coronavirus-crisis-mistakes-19708170


…our government actions and reactions cannot be applied as any generic…’this was a first time thing’ …because this was not without opportunities to be more prepared to preserve life and yet failed to do so in so many different ways…this isn’t the opinion of ‘Labour’ of Labour supporters either, it’s the opinion of other countries of a huge U.K. COVID failure in loss of life….it’s very interesting to post on other forums with mainly International members and see their absolutely correct outlook of how badly our government and Boris has failed…and yeah, I’m sure that many families with losses will echo that as every single one of us also would…

Well a lot depends on what you chose to read. The majority of countries failed inevitably against an invisible enemy and saying our country didn't fail as much as yours does no good.
Boris has ordered a public inquiry into the Gov response to the pandemic and what lessons are to be learned. The question is did he listen to the advice of the experts or deliberately ignore them, the former is my belief at present. What are the reasons that he didn’t act quickly enough? Nicola Sturgeon said early on that the speed with which the virus tore through the population certainly wasn’t expected.
We don’t know all the ins and outs of what went on and until we do, I’ll not accuse one man, entirely on his own, PM or not, of being solely responsible for very many deaths.

[Tom4784]

Well the easiest way to solve this problem would be to provide those who can prove they can't afford a photo id (being on benefits perhaps) a free one. I don't see many objections. Then there can be no doubt.

I've already mentioned the issues with this in a previous post, so I'm just gonna quote that here to save time.

No.

Let's say this free voter ID card is a thing for people who don't have other forms of photo ID, how many hoops will a person have to jump through to get one? Because they won't send you one automatically because it's a photo ID, so a person with a Driver's Licence or a paid form of ID instantly has an advantage over someone who doesn't.

It's no different to the voter suppression taking place in Georgia where for future votes, they are banning giving people food or drink while they wait in line.... in Georgia weather... for potentially hours... That's designed to make it harder for people to vote, thus suppressing certain people from voting.

If you add restrictions or make voting harder for people to do in any way, that has the effect of voting suppression.

The problem is that people won't realistically get an automatic voter ID like they currently get a voting slip ahead of a vote. They'll have to likely pursue getting one when the current process is wholly automatic. You get a slip, you can take it with you, easy.

When you add extra restrictions to the right to vote, it won't increase votes, it'll just decrease votes from certain demographics and that is the intended affect here.

You can guarantee the process to get one of these free IDs won't be simple or quick, because the only reason to add extra barriers to voting like this one is to make it difficult for certain people to vote. No matter how you cut it, it's voter suppression and if we weren't such a spineless country, we would be up in arms about it but we just accept it, 'cus it's the tories. It's pathetic.

[joeysteele]

…only to add one post…


…tbf, we not only watched ourselves in horror at Italy but they begged us to listen as Boris delayed and didn’t take heed…that was after the not taking heed in preparing with PPE protection that came before…

…these are just some of the things that contributed to the huge loss of life we have …no amount of preparing well for the vaccine is ever going to change that and change the accountability because that goes to protect the lives we have now, not those who are lost…we also don’t compare to every country either because we’re an island and yet we continued and continued and continued with international travel…

https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/uk-news/boris-johnson-coronavirus-crisis-mistakes-19708170


…our government actions and reactions cannot be applied as any generic…’this was a first time thing’ …because this was not without opportunities to be more prepared to preserve life and yet failed to do so in so many different ways…this isn’t the opinion of ‘Labour’ of Labour supporters either, it’s the opinion of other countries of a huge U.K. COVID failure in loss of life….it’s very interesting to post on other forums with mainly International members and see their absolutely correct outlook of how badly our government and Boris has failed…and yeah, I’m sure that many families with losses will echo that as every single one of us also would…


He's being pushed Ammi all ways as to holding a public inquiry.
You are right in your last lines though not that all would very sadly.

There are many groups longing to reveal their evidence on the dangerous and loss of life incurring mess of handling this pandemic by this pathetic PM.

He now says a public inquiry is at least a year off to next Spring, just to begin!!!!
He is procrastinating even on something as vital as that.

This is in my view yes, to ensure the findings of the inquiry cannot be concluded and made known until AFTER the next general election..
I think he's planning a Spring/ Summer or Autumn election in 2023.
To ensure he hasn't to face questioning on the inquiry, which would be still ongoing.
Plus he'd not have any conclusions of the inquiry until after the election.

There is only one thing this PM has that as PM he is adept at.
That is pure dangerous deceit.
Absolutely sickening that enough voters still fall for his clumsy bumbling act.
Unbelievable.

[user104658]

There’s no question at all that it’s a form of voter suppression; there is no indication that there’s anything wrong with the current voting system (other than the inherent flaws of FOTP, but not with the votes themselves) and thus there’s no valid reasoning behind suddenly requiring photo ID.

If an election showed real evidence of widespread fraud then you might understand wanting more security around voting. But that hasn’t happened. So it’s being done for other reasons. That simple.

[Beso]

There’s no question at all that it’s a form of voter suppression; there is no indication that there’s anything wrong with the current voting system (other than the inherent flaws of FOTP, but not with the votes themselves) and thus there’s no valid reasoning behind suddenly requiring photo ID.

If an election showed real evidence of widespread fraud then you might understand wanting more security around voting. But that hasn’t happened. So it’s being done for other reasons. That simple.


The fraud side imo, had only not been done because the loop hole wssnt widely known.

It is now, and it is now open for lawyers to make vast amounts of money on prosecution cases, but boris has now attempted to block this by introducing this scheme that will be needed in years to come if it isnt introduced now.

It's called progression.

[Crimson Dynamo]

anyone can go in and say i live at xyz and vote

we have NO IDEA how much fraud goes on at mo

[Beso]

anyone can go in and say i live at xyz and vote

we have NO IDEA how much fraud goes on at mo

The conservatives probably proved how it can be done by fraudulently obtaining hartlepool.:joker:

I'm joking but its probably true.

[joeysteele]

There’s no question at all that it’s a form of voter suppression; there is no indication that there’s anything wrong with the current voting system (other than the inherent flaws of FOTP, but not with the votes themselves) and thus there’s no valid reasoning behind suddenly requiring photo ID.

If an election showed real evidence of widespread fraud then you might understand wanting more security around voting. But that hasn’t happened. So it’s being done for other reasons. That simple.


It's a pathetic idea.
I believe on Peston tonight, former Con Scottish leader, Ruth Davidson, also thinks it's ridiculous or a word to that effect.

[Ammi]

He's being pushed Ammi all ways as to holding a public inquiry.
You are right in your last lines though not that all would very sadly.

There are many groups longing to reveal their evidence on the dangerous and loss of life incurring mess of handling this pandemic by this pathetic PM.

He now says a public inquiry is at least a year off to next Spring, just to begin!!!!
He is procrastinating even on something as vital as that.

This is in my view yes, to ensure the findings of the inquiry cannot be concluded and made known until AFTER the next general election..
I think he's planning a Spring/ Summer or Autumn election in 2023.
To ensure he hasn't to face questioning on the inquiry, which would be still ongoing.
Plus he'd not have any conclusions of the inquiry until after the election.

There is only one thing this PM has that as PM he is adept at.
That is pure dangerous deceit.
Absolutely sickening that enough voters still fall for his clumsy bumbling act.
Unbelievable.

…of course, the inquiry is being called for…it’s not something he wants and he has the power to postpone it so he does…he can postpone/suspend parliament, he can postpone/suspend the inquiry to his own convenience…postpone/suspend is something he excels at so I find it all completely believable, Joey…this is the man who even before he became leader, held Donald Trump as a figure of admiration and inspiration…it’s all a dishonest game of tactics and ego while he has delayed actions against all advice at the cost of many lives and the families losing those lives because the one thing that defied his postponement/suspension was COVID…but we both know, Joey…that there will never be any accountability….it doesn’t in any way balance any loss of life through inaction who will never see their vaccination but we did though have many heroes worthy of that name through all of this….

[joeysteele]

…of course, the inquiry is being called for…it’s not something he wants and he has the power to postpone it so he does…he can postpone/suspend parliament, he can postpone/suspend the inquiry to his own convenience…postpone/suspend is something he excels at so I find it all completely believable, Joey…this is the man who even before he became leader, held Donald Trump as a figure of admiration and inspiration…it’s all a dishonest game of tactics and ego while he has delayed actions against all advice at the cost of many lives and the families losing those lives because the one thing that defied his postponement/suspension was COVID…but we both know, Joey…that there will never be any accountability….it doesn’t in any way balance any loss of life through inaction who will never see their vaccination but we did though have many heroes worthy of that name through all of this….

I am infuriated Ammi.

His procrastination on this inquiry, is as bad and unforgivable as his procrastination in dealing with the pandemic.

It's an insult, a nothing but a slap in the face to those heavily hurt and aggrieved families of lost loved ones.
Who have singly at first, I'm one of them,I and my Mother, who sought to meet with him as to why things were allowed to happen to hasten loss of life.

Then the singularly separate bereaved families came together, and there are now groups of them.
Who all acted quickly and got quickly medical facts along with other evidence before anything could be tampered with.

He.may well have met with family bereaved of his own friends or MPs.
He has with deceit stated he's met with other families.

He has never met with those I've said above, in fact he's REFUSED to and more than once too.
His heartless supporters won't care about that but supporting him on this makes them more heartless in my opinion, sorry to say.

Con MPs are threatened if they vote against him, he demonstrated what he'd do even to a most senior Con elder, Kenneth Clarke, in ,2019.

I and other thousands of others of those from really aggrieved families have been left waiting so long now for this inquiry to get our evidence presented to it.

Now he shockingly and insultingly says you have to wait another whole year.

So he can cut and run before the inquiry delivers it's findings by holding an election before it does.
With no questioning in the campaign, because as I said the inquiry still ongoing at the time.

A political deceiver and dangerous political liar is ALL I can say about this disgraceful Prime Minister.

Unforgivable 100%

[arista]

1392742554798628864/video/1

[bots]

I can't stand boris, but from a voter perspective he is doing very nicely, moaning about him isn't going to win labour an election

[Ammi]

…when answerability for overwhelming life loss is moaning, that’s just not something I can understand at all…nothing will win Labour an election in any up and coming…(…IMO…)…discussing Boris’ failures as a leader isn’t a Labour v Conservative thing…it’s a worldwide thing and it’s a very necessary thing…and the absolute very least that those in grief deserve…

[joeysteele]

I can't stand boris, but from a voter perspective he is doing very nicely, moaning about him isn't going to win labour an election

So matter what pain or insult Johnson inflicts on people we just have to say well done Boris to suit you and hard-line Con voters.

Well not me, not ever.

I doubt Labour would win an election either if we NEVER moaned at him.
Just to please you and other Con supporters.

[joeysteele]

…when answerability for overwhelming life loss is moaning, that’s just not something I can understand at all…nothing will win Labour an election in any up and coming…(…IMO…)…discussing Boris’ failures as a leader isn’t a Labour v Conservative thing…it’s a worldwide thing and it’s a very necessary thing…and the absolute very least that those in grief deserve…

Nor me Ammi, it's grossly insulting.
As is the lengths Cons will do to try to protect and stop criticism of the odious creep.
Sorry for strong words but if he ever dared meet me and my family I'd tell him that to his face.
Unbelievable.

[bots]

So matter what pain or insult Johnson inflicts on people we just have to say well done Boris to suit you and hard-line Con voters.

Well not me, not ever.

I doubt Labour would win an election either if we NEVER moaned at him.
Just to please you and other Con supporters.

ok, so given i just said i can't stand boris, you reply with that? I see a fixation here that isnt based on reality

[joeysteele]

ok, so given i just said i can't stand boris, you reply with that? I see a fixation here that isnt based on reality

I can't stand Johnson and will never make excuses for him.
Not on this.
Not a chance, never.
I wouldn't even try to IF I really couldn't stand him, wouldn't even want to.

See what you like, I say what my and my family and multi thousands from other unnecessary lost loved ones families are thinking and saying.

Their views more important to me than Johnson and his supporters.

I make no apologies for fighting against Johnson for myself, my family, and helping those other aggrieved families desperately seeking justice for their cruelly lost loved ones unnecessarily.
I don't and never will.

[arista]

1392770336714809347

[arista]

First Question
BBC1HD Question Time
"What is the Point of the Labour Party"

Yes LT.
Your Thread is very Relevant.