Indy2 Scotland SNP Demands - 19th October 2023

[arista]

Can Mods or Admin
Please add a poll

Yes to Indy2 Scotland

No to Indy2 Scotland



They are expected to have 63
Then use the Greens to make up the numbers.



The SNP and Conservatives
to Fight this out in the High Courts.

[Tom4784]

Let the people of Scotland have their say. The landscape has changed since the last referendum dramatically and they deserve a choice of whether they want to go down the ****ter with us or try to forge their own path.

There's no point in acting like an abusive ex that won't let someone go when they want to.

[The Slim Reaper]

If we were allowed to kick ourselves in the bollocks with brexit ref, then Scotland should also get a free kick out our bollocks.

[arista]

We are Stuck in a Pandemic
for some years.

[The Slim Reaper]

Wonder what will be left by the time Boris leaves office.

[The Slim Reaper]

We are Stuck in a Pandemic
for some years.

Did you want brexit to stop when the pandemic hit?

[arista]

Did you want Brexit to stop when the pandemic hit?


Its Impossible to Stop Brexit.

[The Slim Reaper]

Its Impossible to Stop Brexit.

Than pandemics don't have to stop anything.

[arista]

Than pandemics don't have to stop anything.


No Brexit is Done.

[The Slim Reaper]

No Brexit is Done.

We all have been.

[joeysteele]

When the poll comes I'll vote yes.

[Crimson Dynamo]

tbh i do think that recovery from the pandemic is priority number one and i think that Nic and her team will agree

[MTVN]

Added the poll

#NotoIndy2Scotland

[arista]

Added the poll

#NotoIndy2Scotland


Cheers.

[user104658]

Now isn’t the time for Indy itself but I’d be happy to have the referendum on the basis that it would then be a decent-ish amount of transition time. Besides the obvious, one of the biggest failings of brexit was that post-referendum the whole process was rushed. They should have taken a few more years to hammer out the plan before triggering.

[James]

Not sure if the poll is for a new referendum or independence but I voted no either way.

[arista]

Not sure if the poll is for a new referendum or independence but I voted no either way.


So did I.

[Cherie]

No they had their ref, and give 17 year olds had the vote then and this time round and Nicola still couldn’t get a majority, it clear it’s as divisive as Brexit and not what the majority want

[arista]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E00QStTUcAAs5iu?format=jpg&name=small

[arista]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E05mzH3VEAIecik?format=jpg&name=small

[arista]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E05mzl-UYAAnmwk?format=jpg&name=small

[arista]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E05mzmNUcAAMjkg?format=jpg&name=small

[Crimson Dynamo]

https://www.thenational.scot/resources/images/12587782.png?display=1&htype=0&type=responsive-gallery

NICOLA Sturgeon told Andrew Marr she 'wouldn't rule out' bringing forward a referendum by spring next year.

It comes as the outgoing head of the vaccine task force has said that by August this year there will be no vaccine circulating in the UK.

The First Minister has said that she would only hold a constitutional vote once the Covid pandemic has passed.

And Clive Dix, vaccine taskforce chief, told the Telegraph yesterday that the country is on track to vaccinate all adults by the end of July.

READ MORE: Michael Gove says Westminster won't take Scottish Government to court over indyref2

Asked by Marr if Scotland would hold a referendum if the by Spring next year, based on predictions, the pandemic was over, Sturgeon said: "That would certainly work for timescale of within the first half of the parliamentary term, but I very much, not just for reasons of an independence referendum, but for many reasons, I desperately hope those predictions are correct.

"But we have to judge that as we go through this year, we’ve still got many significant challenges ahead."


https://www.thenational.scot/news/19289675.nicola-sturgeon-wouldnt-rule-out-indyref2-spring-2022/

[Oliver_W]

SNP didn't get their majority, and most Scottish people didn't vote for pro-independence parties. Maybe she needs to simmer down a bit.

[Crimson Dynamo]

SNP didn't get their majority, and most Scottish people didn't vote for pro-independence parties. Maybe she needs to simmer down a bit.

Holyrood now has a pro-independence majority.

[Oliver_W]

Holyrood now has a pro-independence majority.
Unlike the voters.

[bots]

they can demand a referendum all they like, there is no evidence that there is strong support for it in Scotland

[Crimson Dynamo]

Unlike the voters.

we just had an election with a high turn out and the people of Scotland have voted in a pro-independence majority of MSP's to represent them in our parliament - a larger majority than before

that is a fact

:spin:

[user104658]

they can demand a referendum all they like, there is no evidence that there is strong support for it in Scotland

I mean there is definitely strong support - the 45% that voted for it last time would constitute "strong support" - there is however no evidence that there is majority support but... well... that's the point of holding a referendum isn't it.

Honestly if I had to guess I'd say it'll still be 45% or above, but I don't think it's at over 50% yet.

[Crimson Dynamo]

they can demand a referendum all they like, there is no evidence that there is strong support for it in Scotland

we just had an election with a high turn out and the people of Scotland have voted in a pro-independence majority of MSP's to represent them in our parliament - a larger majority than before


You dont have to be sherlock holmes to see something in that :laugh:

https://i.gifer.com/5A4R.gif

[user104658]

One thing I've never figured out is why Orkney and Shetlands consistently go for Lib Dem :think:. My guess is that they're pro-Union (like Aberdeen, for oil reasons?) but not big enough ****s to vote Tory?

[joeysteele]

This is the point though.

If the Scots support Parties wanting another referendum.
Then no democratically elected force or individual should deny that referendum being held.
That is dictatorship.

By the same token then what was in the Con manifesto may not be morally or legally carried out either.

Anyhow, Nicola Sturgeon is the longest serving leader in power in any Nation of the UK.
She's just won a strong new term, the 4th for the SNP.

I don't think she needs any lectures from Johnson & his henchmen/ women on democracy or what she's been elected to see through.

For me, it's a pity she's not running the whole of the UK.

[Crimson Dynamo]

One thing I've never figured out is why Orkney and Shetlands consistently go for Lib Dem :think:. My guess is that they're pro-Union (like Aberdeen, for oil reasons?) but not big enough ****s to vote Tory?

Well whatever it is when we get independence we should invade and burn their huts and boats

that will learn them

:oh:

[bots]

we just had an election with a high turn out and the people of Scotland have voted in a pro-independence majority of MSP's to represent them in our parliament - a larger majority than before


You dont have to be sherlock holmes to see something in that :laugh:

https://i.gifer.com/5A4R.gif

For starters, not everyone that votes for snp wants independence and secondly, there were more voters for unionist parties than there were for independence parties, so stick that in your pipe and smoke it sherlock :laugh:

[Crimson Dynamo]

For starters, not everyone that votes for snp wants independence and secondly, there were more voters for unionist parties than there were for independence parties, so stick that in your pipe and smoke it sherlock :laugh:

then no one has anything to fear from a wee referendum to see

http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/2011/08/disco.gif

[joeysteele]

For starters, not everyone that votes for snp wants independence and secondly, there were more voters for unionist parties than there were for independence parties, so stick that in your pipe and smoke it sherlock :laugh:

So when the Cons get voted in with say something like planning NHS reforms should it be taken that not all Con voters supported it, so it shouldn't be allowed to be done.

This isn't a vote for actual independence now, it's to the right to hold a referendum to again put the arguments for or against it.
After a democratically held election too.

A Con MP said on TV yesterday, it was 5 years since the last independence one.
They don't even know when the last one was held.
This year will mark actually 7 years since the last one with massive constitutional change occurring throughout the UK done since it too.

[user104658]

Well whatever it is when we get independence we should invade and burn their huts and boats

that will learn them

:oh:

https://66.media.tumblr.com/326f38f549af26d7028e220fb9714eee/6051f0ceadb14711-fc/s500x750/6939a7272510acc60add6efb7156d0e71add01b7.gifv

[James]

Are they really going to break up the country, and turn the UK into a foreign country to Scotland on a basically 50-50 vote?

[Crimson Dynamo]

Both the SNP and Green manifesto stated they would seek a ref in the next term so..

[James]

One thing I've never figured out is why Orkney and Shetlands consistently go for Lib Dem :think:. My guess is that they're pro-Union (like Aberdeen, for oil reasons?) but not big enough ****s to vote Tory?

I think Orkney and Shetland has a slightly separate identity that sets it apart from the rest of Scotland.

Looking at the history of it there is a big Viking influence.

[bots]

I think Orkney and Shetland has a slightly separate identity that sets it apart from the rest of Scotland.

Looking at the history of it there is a big Viking influence.

i worked as a student in shetland an age ago, and it seemed they had more in common with scandinavians than the uk. Wasn't there a vote on shetland for independence from scotland a few years ago? :laugh:

[user104658]

Are they really going to break up the country, and turn the UK into a foreign country to Scotland on a basically 50-50 vote?

It was good enough for Brexit :shrug:.

[user104658]

i worked as a student in shetland an age ago, and it seemed they had more in common with scandinavians than the uk. Wasn't there a vote on shetland for independence from scotland a few years ago? :laugh:

Yes but they managed a staggering 8% for indy :joker:. I think they see themselves as a bit of a separate entity to either Scotland or England, but part of the British Isles nonetheless. Shetland anyway. The younger folks I've met from Orkney tend to quite like a regular jaunt to Glasgow.

[James]

It was good enough for Brexit :shrug:.

I think independence would be way more traumatic than Brexit. The EU is a collection of countries working together, and not a nation state with a national identity.

[Crimson Dynamo]

I think independence would be way more traumatic than Brexit. The EU is a collection of countries working together, and not a nation state with a national identity.

DO you realise the trauma we all felt when showbiz was shoehorned into SD without so much as poll?

:idc:

[Tom4784]

Democracy is democracy, you can't have too many votes, the people should always have their say. If scottish people vote to leave, let them, if they decide not to again and want another vote in a few years time? Let them. Democracy is still democracy.

[arista]

Marr BBC1HD
Told Nicola
if she loses her Court Case
it's Game Over.

[joeysteele]

Marr BBC1HD
Told Nicola
if she loses her Court Case
it's Game Over.

He was utterly ignorant as usual.
He'd never question Johnson the way he does her.
Awful.

[arista]

17:56

Sturgeon tells Boris Johnson Indyref2 is a 'matter of when – not if'

[UserSince2005]

Yes we need scotland out! now!

[arista]

I think independence would be way more traumatic than Brexit. The EU is a collection of countries working together, and not a nation state with a national identity.


Good Warning there
James.

[arista]

Both the SNP and Green manifesto stated they would seek a ref in the next term so..



Yes LT
but once it gets into the High Court
and you Lose


Its Game Over.

[joeysteele]

Yes LT
but once it gets into the High Court
and you Lose


Its Game Over.

I don't think they would lose in the high court actually.
If they took it there, and a manifesto commitment was ruled not to be valid after an election won.

It could open up constitutional chaos on manifesto commitments in other elections too.

No wonder slimy Gove indicated it wouldn't get to a court.
He knows that.

[arista]

I don't think they would lose in the high court actually.
If they took it there, and a manifest commitment was ruled not to be valid after an election won.

It could open up constitutional chaos on manifesto commitments in other elections too.

No wonder slimy Gove indicated it wouldn't get to a court.
He knows that.


Gove MP refuses to talk about it
This in a few years
once Covid-19 is less of a problem
it will end up in High Courts
that could refuse her wish


I mean it's not all of Scotland
that will Vote for this.
So Democracy is not in this
in my view.

[Nicky91]

No

let scotland remain under england's control pls


and hope Sturgeon retires from politics, that amateur can't do anything good anyway

[Niamh.]

I don't have any skin in the game but I think because of Brexit they probably should get a chance to vote again

[joeysteele]

No

let scotland remain under england's control pls


and hope Sturgeon retires from politics, that amateur can't do anything good anyway

Are you being serious.
Sturgeon is the most competent trustworthy leader of any Party at present across the whole of the UK.

[Livia]

If they go ahead with another referendum and they don't get the result they want again, do they get to do it over and over? Wasn't the last referendum said to be a "once in a lifetime vote".

[arista]

Left Winger Live On LBC 10AM show

Debating This now

[arista]

Listen Free Online as well
https://www.lbc.co.uk/

[joeysteele]

Democracy should be if the voters vote for Parties advocating change.
Then regardless of how many times it happens, it should be voted on.

That's real democracy.
Shackling people and Nations by one vote only is not real democracy.
I don't support refusing the will of the voters who bother to vote.

[arista]

Democracy should be if the voters vote for Parties advocating change.
Then regardless of how many times it happens, it should be voted on.

That's real democracy.
Shackling people and Nations by one vote only is not real democracy.
Refusing the will of the voters who bother to vote.


Its Not Democracy
only half to vote.

[joeysteele]

Its Not Democracy
only half to vote.

That's ridiculous arista and I'm surprised you say it

[arista]

That's ridiculous arista and I'm surprised you say it


All I am saying is you would need everyone to vote for it
and so many do not want to be Cut Off.

[joeysteele]

All I am saying is you would need everyone to vote for it
and so many do not want to be Cut Off.

Everyone to vote for it.
Did every single person vote for Brexit or just the majority of those who voted.

Did David Cameron get over ,50% of the votes cast in an election to hold the referendum in his manifesto.

He actually won that general election in 2015 with far less voters votes than the SNP got on Thursday.

[arista]

Everyone to vote for it.
Did every single person vote for Brexit or just the majority of those who voted.

Did David Cameron get over ,50% of the votes cast in an election to hold the referendum in his manifesto.

He actually won that general election in 2015 with far less voters votes than the SNP got on Thursday.



This is Not like Brexit
That's a One only Vote

[joeysteele]

This is Not like Brexit
That's a One only Vote

You may think that.

I can see Brexit revisited in around 12 years or so.
With the losses of the older voters and most newer voters favouring being in the EU.

Even moreso if Labour can be persuaded to adopt PR for elections.

There was only a 3.8% majority after all of those who actually voted.

[smudgie]

If Scotland can afford another referendum then I see no reason to stop them.
Maybe something re how often they could be held put in writing would help with all the mind numbing arguments about it.:shrug:

[joeysteele]

If Scotland can afford another referendum then I see no reason to stop them.
Maybe something re how often they could be held put in writing would help with all the mind numbing arguments about it.:shrug:

That's a good idea.
As to time ranges.

[arista]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E1A1Q6bWUAIfyBq?format=jpg&name=small

[Cherie]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E1A1Q6bWUAIfyBq?format=jpg&name=small

:joker:

[joeysteele]

If that cartoon pic was a real scenario, poor Nicola Sturgeon would be likely wanting a sick bucket for her pronto.

What a nightmare scene for her.

[bots]

if scotland actually want independence they will get it eventually, i can't see what the rush is at the moment just recovering from a pandemic. Nicola can't honestly say that pushing for it now is best for the country

[Crimson Dynamo]

if scotland actually want independence they will get it eventually, i can't see what the rush is at the moment just recovering from a pandemic. Nicola can't honestly say that pushing for it now is best for the country

yes i guess she thinks well i just won an elction on the SNP ticket so i better say a few positive things about indyref2 but in actual fact she has her First MInister head on and realises that getting back on our feet is the priority

[arista]

Back before the First One
2014 Limmy.

srBk-f50LYM

[arista]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E5XPzwHXoAEv-aj?format=jpg&name=medium

[arista]

Live on GMBHD itv

The SNP leader got angry
when Martin told her
she would need a 60% lead
to ask for a referendum

[arista]

Not the Clip with Martin talking to her

1436235678338125824

[Tom4784]

Deleted Post

[user104658]

I don't think now is the time in all honesty. I mean - first and foremost I think "the time" was 2014 but we didn't get past the post... But putting that out of the equation... There's just too much uncertainty with Covid to be going down this route in the next few years.

I largely agree that she just has to make "independence noises" because it's such a big part of the platform the SNP campaign on... And their voters aren't Tory voters so they can't run an election campaign and then immediately disregard the cornerstones as soon as they get into power and expect no one to notice or care.

[arista]

Yes TS
Covid-19, is not gone yet.


I agree with you.

[arista]

SNP Conference Live
Leader on both news channels

[arista]

1437395660618272770

[Beso]

Is she having a dig at boris and his immigration policies yet?

[Alf]

1438471391343427584

[arista]

Yesterdays Paper

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/12446/production/_123322847_343277071-page-001.jpg

[arista]

Then pandemics don't have to stop anything.


The SNP leader
said she will not start until Covid Pandemic is
has gone

[bots]

Scotland don't have nearly the same revenue from oil and gas that they had at the time of the last ref, so their means of financing are further reduced. They could of course still go independent, but it wouldn't be a particularly smart move from an economic perspective.

[arista]

Scotland don't have nearly the same revenue from oil and gas that they had at the time of the last ref, so their means of financing are further reduced. They could of course still go independent, but it wouldn't be a particularly smart move from an economic perspective.



Very Good Point
the SNP leader
has to explain how she can
sort out Funding her nation, alone?

[Kizzy]

How could the revenue from oil and gas have gone down?...They are at an all time high from everywhere else why would Scotland be different?

[bots]

the supply coming from the north sea now is much less than a decade ago, so it's less revenue. The scottish government also have a green policy so its very difficult for oil companies to bring new fields online

[arista]

the supply coming from the north sea now is much less than a decade ago, so it's less revenue. The scottish government also have a green policy so its very difficult for oil companies to bring new fields online


Yes thats true

[Crimson Dynamo]

I cant see there being much of an appetite for a ref until covid is long gone

[UserSince2005]

Covid is gone, time for scotland to go, we cant keep looking after yous

[user104658]

the supply coming from the north sea now is much less than a decade ago, so it's less revenue.

Not according to the Tories a couple of weeks ago :joker:

(In all seriousness, it's likely that there are still quite large reserves still to be tapped)

However...

The scottish government also have a green policy so its very difficult for oil companies to bring new fields online

This is indeed a sticking point. Difficult to run an indy campaign on oil wealth and commit to "going green to save the planet" at the same time.

[user104658]

My current answer by the way is that I'm no longer sure. The current global political landscape is ... a bit all over the place at the moment. In all honesty I'm not convinced any of it is going to be particularly relevant in 50 years time.

Indy would have been right for Scotland, 30 years ago. We'd be sat on an oil fund that would exceed Norway's and in a great position to tackle the 21st century. But now... I dunno. The window of opportunity may have long passed.

[Kizzy]

There are other energy avenues that Scotland could utilise. They have islands first wind, water or solar?

[Crimson Dynamo]

There are other energy avenues that Scotland could utilise. They have islands first wind, water or solar?

Unreliable energy is not a bankable future

[Kizzy]

Unreliable energy is not a bankable future

Well we invested in North Sea gas and that's only lasted what, 60yrs?.. so if the wind and the waves keep moving for that long where's the harm?

[arista]

Was Debated on BBC2HD Politics Live
with an SNP and Scottish Labour Leader.

2023 the SNP
Demand the 2nd Referendum

Johnson PM
still says NO

[arista]

When the poll comes I'll vote yes.


You troublemaker

[bots]

Well we invested in North Sea gas and that's only lasted what, 60yrs?.. so if the wind and the waves keep moving for that long where's the harm?

the scottish government auctioned off a load of sites to energy companies fairly recently to grab some cash, so i dont think other than that the scottish people will get much for it

[arista]

Way back in 2014 at Indy 1
I recorded this
as the Attack BBC sign
made me laugh

CfsjJQrQ3-I

[user104658]

Don’t remind me of Indy 1, as much as the SNP have fallen out of favour with me at this point I’m still pretty much certain that Scotland would be in a better position at this moment in time if we had gone Indy back then.

[arista]

Don’t remind me of Indy 1, as much as the SNP have fallen out of favour with me at this point I’m still pretty much certain that Scotland would be in a better position at this moment in time if we had gone Indy back then.


Sure now its Covid Era.


But to an Indy 2

What money will you have?


Once that is leaked
you will find your mini type brexit
is dangerous for your health

As Money matters

[user104658]

Sure now its Covid Era.


But to an Indy 2

What money will you have?


Once that is leaked
you will find your mini type brexit
is dangerous for your health

As Money matters


It doesn’t matter at this point Arista, everywhere is ****ed, the world ain’t getting fixed. I’m not saying that to be depressing it’s just rapidly becoming fact… enjoy each day at a time, humanity doesn’t have a future :joker:

[bots]

in days gone by we had inflation because employees with the help of unions were able to demand higher and higher wages and therefore buy more stuff

Thats been gone for a generation, and we now have inflation because of supply chain issues of one form or another. This is why i cannot fathom why they think raising interest rates will help. If things are in short supply it means people cant buy enough of what they need/want, raising interest rates isnt going to help that. They need to get the supply issues sorted and then everything will be fine, so thats what the sole focus should be on

[arista]

"humanity doesn’t have a future"


TS
snap out of that.

GTA Game engineers work in Scotland
the whole world loves GTA5.

Industry can not be stopped

[user104658]

"humanity doesn’t have a future"


TS
snap out of that.

GTA Game engineers work in Scotland
the whole world loves GTA5.

Industry can not be stopped

We're going to run out of abundant fossil fuels before we're anywhere close to having a viable alternative, and long past the point of catastrophic climate change. There's no viable path forward for 7+ billion human beings to exist on this planet. It's not something to snap out of ... it's the bare facts.

[arista]

We're going to run out of abundant fossil fuels before we're anywhere close to having a viable alternative, and long past the point of catastrophic climate change. There's no viable path forward for 7+ billion human beings to exist on this planet. It's not something to snap out of ... it's the bare facts.


Thats Years Ahead.
Beyond your kid's lifetime


Mega Solar Farms are being set up.


Even across deserts

This one in California
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f5/02-09-15_First_Solar_Desert_Sunlight_Solar_Farm_%2815863 210084%29.jpg/600px-02-09-15_First_Solar_Desert_Sunlight_Solar_Farm_%2815863 210084%29.jpg

[arista]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FSNvIbXXwAIpwSw?format=jpg&name=small

[arista]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FSNDSmKX0AA0YBn?format=jpg&name=small

[arista]

Today we learn more
from Nicola Sturgeon.

About the Currency and Pensions & other things

Good on GMBHD itv

Reporter Live in Edinburgh

[arista]

The Horrible Leader
is Live


On 3 News channels

[arista]

Now her Co Leader Green MP
is talking

He is only on GBnewsHD

[arista]

She says she has a Right for a 2nd Referendum.

She put up a list
UK at near the Bottom

She thinks Scotland alone will do better.


Debated on Politics Live BBC2HD

Their Scottish reporter said
the No's are in front of the votes this time

[arista]

Johnson has not Granted her a 2nd Referendum

[Crimson Dynamo]

https://www.thenational.scot/resources/images/13886861.jpg?type=responsive-gallery-fullscreen

[arista]

The Polls have it

48% want this vote?

[arista]

She can only do a Wild Cat Referendum
next year
anyway

[Crimson Dynamo]

rL1TogDhQAk

[Cherie]

This would be as bad for Scotland at this time as Brexit is for the UK but carry on

[bots]

it's obviously up to the people, but i just dont see how scotland is viable on its own

[Crimson Dynamo]

I mean westminster is a sh1ithole but noone wants this at mo
literally noone

[arista]

The SNP Leader is Live

19th October 2023 is her
indy 2 date


But Johnson said today - NO

[Beso]

Live..


Talking ****e.

[Beso]

Mr ross talking sense now...

[Beso]

What was she slavering on about saying the Scottish voters sent out a clear msg that they want independence because they voted snp last time round..

Her coalition government with the greens....surely there was more reason than independence for voting them both in.

[user104658]

What was she slavering on about saying the Scottish voters sent out a clear msg that they want independence because they voted snp last time round..

Her coalition government with the greens....surely there was more reason than independence for voting them both in.

Interestingly though, the energy crisis is now one of the most compelling arguments for independence. QUite blatantly the world of fossil fuels is falling apart at the seams. Scotland is already basically 100% energy independent with renewables and with extra to spare (i.e. sell). The UK as a whole will most likely NEVER reach that goal and will happily siphon off Scotland's renewable resources and keep Scotland as dependent on Gas & Oil as the rest of the UK.

The global energy issues are not going away... but they can go away completely for Scotland because we have abundant renewable energy sournces for a small population. Indy could literally shelter us from upcoming economic chaos.

It's pretty telling that there was a video of some Tory going around - a supposedly anti-independence video - in which he was saying that it would be "silly" for Scotland to separate from the UK because... ... "Scotland has more renewable resources than they need and England needs to use those resources". That was his anti-Indy argument! That we have an abundance of riches per capita and England wants a share of it! :umm2:.

Truth is yes, they do need it, and if Scotland goes Indy, when it comes to it... the energy companies in England will buy it. Rather than just being able to take it.

It's a flat-out fact that if Scotland had been independent before oil drilling started, we'd be one of the richest per capita countries in the world today. And we wouldn't have half the social issues we have thanks to Thatcher's 80's. Is it too late to avoid damage? Until recently I thought maybe, but there IS NO bigger issue now than energy resources. None. By a long, long way.

[James]

When a ruling party - like the SNP - just wants to campaign constantly and not govern it is not a good thing.

That's what they want to do - be in a permanent campaign.

[Beso]

Thatchers 80s ended 32 years ago...that's 4 of sturgeons generations by my calculations...its an easy out to use...far to easy, and continually blaming thatchers 80s over the years has only caused these social issues to sink as far as they have sunk today.

[arista]

When a ruling party - like the SNP - just wants to campaign constantly and not govern it is not a good thing.

That's what they want to do - be in a permanent campaign.


Yes now the Official date
Thursday 19 October 2023.

The Fight starts from today
She will make it part of the General Election.
Big Gamble.

Johnson was asked today
said No.

[user104658]

Thatchers 80s ended 32 years ago...that's 4 of sturgeons generations by my calculations...its an easy out to use...far to easy, and continually blaming thatchers 80s over the years has only caused these social issues to sink as far as they have sunk today.

Thatcher and Reagan's push for a flip to a neoliberal capitalist economy started a chain reaction that has lead us to where we are today; on the verge of a complete collapse of the global financial system. Yeah it was 32 years ago but that was just the start. We're reaping it right now.

[Beso]

Thatcher and Reagan's push for a flip to a neoliberal capitalist economy started a chain reaction that has lead us to where we are today; on the verge of a complete collapse of the global financial system. Yeah it was 32 years ago but that was just the start. We're reaping it right now.



Can we concentrate on the social issues that you were arguing about, like drug deaths, **** hospitals, rats in the streets, etc.

[bots]

i wish Scotland every success when the russians invade

[user104658]

Can we concentrate on the social issues that you were arguing about, like drug deaths, **** hospitals, rats in the streets, etc.

Yes Scotland's heroin disaster can be directly traced back to the families worst affected by Thatcher's economic reforms in the 80's, much as with the ex-industrial cities in the US that fell into ruin/drugs/crime for the same reasons. A shift over to "Big City" / financial market economics (that turned out to be a big ol ponzy scheme that's now starting to fall apart).

As for hospitals, as awful as they admittedly are, they're still better than most NHS England hospitals, and half of the services in NHS England hospitals aren't even run by NHS England any more ... but a scattershot of private entities funded by the NHS via outsourcing.

[user104658]

i wish Scotland every success when the russians invade

If Russians are making landfall on the British isles then we're all already full to the gills with radiation and dying of cancer anyway.

[Beso]

Yes Scotland's heroin disaster can be directly traced back to the families worst affected by Thatcher's economic reforms in the 80's, much as with the ex-industrial cities in the US that fell into ruin/drugs/crime for the same reasons. A shift over to "Big City" / financial market economics (that turned out to be a big ol ponzy scheme that's now starting to fall apart).

As for hospitals, as awful as they admittedly are, they're still better than most NHS England hospitals, and half of the services in NHS England hospitals aren't even run by NHS England any more ... but a scattershot of private entities funded by the NHS via outsourcing.




2 questions for you(hoping to be educated)

1..if its thatchers 80s to blame..why is scotlands drug problem 3 and a half times worse than the rest of the UK? Wouldnt it be similar.


2..what happened 30 years before the 80's, to cause the herion epidemic in the 80s?

[Cherie]

Good luck, hope it happens this time because if it doesn’t there will be another ref and then another until the SNP get the right result

[arista]

Good luck, hope it happens this time because if it doesn’t there will be another ref and then another until the SNP get the right result

She can not have another one,
Johnson Prime Minister
has said NO.

[Cherie]

She can not have another one,
Johnson Prime Minister
has said NO.

She will keep on until she gets her way

[bots]

She can not have another one,
Johnson Prime Minister
has said NO.

it's not up to Johnson, it's going to the supreme court

[arista]

it's not up to Johnson, it's going to the supreme court

Ch4HDNews
said the Supreme Court will say No.

[bots]

Ch4HDNews
said the Supreme Court will say No.

no-one can predict what the supreme court will decide

[Crimson Dynamo]

I mean surely English, Welsh and NI members can see why Scotland are looking at the current government and thinking

er no this cluster fcuck aint for me?

[James]

I mean surely English, Welsh and NI members can see why Scotland are looking at the current government and thinking

er no this cluster fcuck aint for me?

If Scotland was independent the politicians we would end up with would just be different versions of the same thing we have now, in my opinion.

If you want any evidence of that just remind yourself who was First Minister of Scotland until 2014. Is that guy actually any better than any UK politician you could care to mention?

However being part of a country always goes far beyond which politicians we elect and what the current politics are, or even any of the technical issues and benefits, of which there are many.

Keeping a country together is primarily about having a shared culture, national identity and history. About not setting one part against another.

If Scotland became independent then the UK would be a foreign country, and Scotland a foreign country to the UK, with everything that entails.

[James]

Thatcher and Reagan's push for a flip to a neoliberal capitalist economy started a chain reaction that has lead us to where we are today; on the verge of a complete collapse of the global financial system. Yeah it was 32 years ago but that was just the start. We're reaping it right now.

The financial system partially collapsed back in 2008. I think the pandemic and the world's response to it is more responsible for the current economic troubles.

[arista]

https://liveblog.digitalimages.sky/lc-images-sky/lcimg-c364eade-4c02-432e-9d28-22cc474217a7.jpg?bypass-service-worker&

[arista]

https://liveblog.digitalimages.sky/lc-images-sky/lcimg-e6fb04a1-217d-419a-934e-f616d8cd0e89.jpg?bypass-service-worker&

[arista]

Sturgeon is Live on GMBHD itv now

[arista]

They just told her she will lose again (From The YouGov poll)
is it worth all the money?


Sturgeon says the world has changed.

[arista]

https://twitter.com/GMB/status/1542044002240831488

[arista]

The Left Winger Live on LBC 10AM show
is debating the Indy 2.

He says No
stay in the UK



Dreaming of joining the EU?

[arista]

https://pbs.twimg.com/card_img/1578683487548149760/hqtlzh84?format=png&name=small

They have their SNP Conference
Aberdeen today
Mostly going live on BBCnewsHD
but just to their
reporter


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-63175102

feed from early today
https://twitter.com/Buchanan_1967/status/1578686939456503808

[arista]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Feiyb0dWYAAaxZn?format=jpg&name=small

[arista]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FeiZME0XoAABd9Z?format=jpg&name=small


A great Deal of Empty Seats
there today

[arista]

Good on SkyNewsHD
having a Reporter Live there
as well.

[arista]

SNP Scotland has a Major Problem
that now claim
they will have a Separate Scottish Pound

As they can not get the €uro
it would take many years.

So their new Scottish Pound
would CRASH.

No one with common sense wants that,

[arista]

The Westminster SNP Porky Leader
is Live


BBCnewsHD had him LIVE
but dumped him
for a Sports update - Pathetic



SkyNewsHD solid Live in Full

[arista]

The SNP leader said
a few days ago the UK PM has not spoken to her?

Now the Stupid SNP leader
is saying she Detests the Conservatives?

That is no help.



Today she is giving her speech on the Final SNP Conference day
in Aberdeen. Around 3:15PM


Soon the UK Court
decides if it is Legal to have another Vote.

[Cherie]

Where are the funds coming from for another vote

[joeysteele]

The SNP leader said
a few days ago the UK PM has not spoken to her?

Now the Stupid SNP leader
is saying she Detests the Conservatives?

That is no help.



Today she is giving her speech on the Final SNP Conference day
in Aberdeen. Around 3:15PM


Soon the UK Court
decides if it is Legal to have another Vote.



Nothing wrong in saying she detests the Cons.
She's now among probably multi millions in that.
She's no reason to like them at all anyhow.

When we've had the last 3 PMs of THE UK, denying Scotland rights and disrespecting and rubbishing the SNP elected First Ministers of Scotland too.

As for the independence vote.
That was in her manifesto and the Green party's manifesto.
They both make for a new independence vote to be held.

If she wasn't pushing for one.
She'd be rightly accused of NOT honouring her manifesto commitment.

If I was Scottish and lived in Scotland, I'd likely be persuaded to support independence this time round.
Especially in view of the hostile rhetoric of this Con government over the last years.

If this government REALLY looked on and treated the other 3 Nations of the UK as if they were anywhere valued as part of the UK, then the independence issue may have been more relaxed.

I have always rated Nicola Sturgeon myself, I still do.
I admire her commitment to stick by her promises made to the voters who then resoundly supported her.
Any independence referendum again, could be close or lost again.
It's only however by holding another that question can again be answered.

In light of her election win and with the Green party's support at Holyrood too.
It's a disgrace this shambles of a Westminster government should be able to block it.
Labour too, should start to respect more the wishes of the Scots.
After also failing Scotland too both in government and in opposition.

[arista]

"Nothing wrong in saying she detests the Cons"


You can be Civil,
or Very Rude.



A leader of a Party should be Civil.


Joey you are Wrong

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FeoE6KRWQAEII6G?format=jpg&name=small

[bots]

you can't complain that someone hasn't called them in one breath and call them detestable in the next and expect to be treated courteously

[joeysteele]

"Nothing wrong in saying she detests the Cons"


You can be Civil,
or Very Rude.



A leader of a Party should be Civil.


Joey you are Wrong

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FeoE6KRWQAEII6G?format=jpg&name=small


Saying you detest someone or something is not being rude if you do.
It's just being truthful and factual.

Or do we encouraging more lying from politicians to pretend they don't to some opponents.

When has Sturgeon been shown respect from the likes of Johnson and Truss now.
I actually applaud her having the courage to say she detests them.
What reason has she to like them.

The Cons would have never even granted Scotland and Wales devolution even.
You called her stupid above.
Really !!!
So is that being respectful?

[arista]

"You called her stupid above"


The SNP leader is Stupid
she is going the wrong way about her future plans.


And I am not an MP
so calling her Stupid
is Legal.

[arista]

Having a New "Scottish Pound"
is stupid.

[joeysteele]

"You called her stupid above"


The SNP leader is Stupid
she is going the wrong way about her future plans.


And I am not an MP
so calling her Stupid
is Legal.

Wow.
Well it's actually NOT illegal for her to say she detests what the Cons stand for.

To Cons it would be near the crime of the century.
Had she said it about Labour, those same Cons would be cheering her more likely.

As a Labour I've had many people say they hate all Labour was, is and likely ever will be.
Some of that from people on here.
I wouldn't say anyone was wrong to say they detest Labour.
I know loads who do.

The personalised insults to Corbyn from Con MPs, Con members and supporters were far more than just describing detest as the word.

I think she was actually mild myself.

[bots]

free speech is exactly what it is :laugh:

The tories response to it was quite amusing, it shows how vulnerable the new cabinet is, if anyone says boo they are immediately on the defensive.

It's not very courteous language for someone who needs cooperation going forward, but it's her choice

[Crimson Dynamo]

Liz Truss says she would ignore 'attention seeker' Nicola Sturgeon

1st August this year

[UserSince2005]

WE DO NOT NEED ANOTHER REFERENDUM.

Banish them NOW! Cut them from the union!

[arista]

Liz Truss says she would ignore 'attention seeker' Nicola Sturgeon

1st August this year


Does not Count
she was not a Leader, then.

[Oliver_W]

Liz Truss says she would ignore 'attention seeker' Nicola Sturgeon

1st August this year

When she's raising valid concerns about how the country (UK) is being run, listen. When she thinks she should be able to run Scotland as a separate country, ignore.

Isn't her popularity rock bottom at the moment? Why would anyone want to have a country run exclusively by her?

Come to think of it, the only praise I've ever really heard for her is "we love our Nikki!!!!111" which doesn't exactly show political respect :laugh:

[arista]

Live now the SNP Leader All TV news

Like PM Truss

calling them friends


Talking about Green Energy

[joeysteele]

Nicola Sturgeon is awesome.
What a leader.
I just admire her more and more when I see and hear her.

[arista]

55mins Concluded

Slow talker
Clapping to much

[hijaxers]

Nicola Sturgeon is awesome.
What a leader.
I just admire her more and more when I see and hear her.

That might be your opinion Joey ~ I detest her .

[arista]

Await the UK High Court Decision

[arista]

That might be your opinion Joey ~ I detest her .


You are Most Wise
hijaxers

[joeysteele]

That might be your opinion Joey ~ I detest her .

Well of course it's my opinion whose other opinion could I express.

Great speech from First Minister Sturgeon.

[thesheriff443]

She is a proper old boot.

[hijaxers]

Well of course it's my opinion whose other opinion could I express.

Great speech from First Minister Sturgeon.

Where will she get the Armed services to defend the country ?

[The Slim Reaper]

Where will she get the Armed services to defend the country ?

There are Scottish troops within the British army :laugh: Plus, they'll be an EU member within 5 minutes, and who do Scotland need defending from?

https://media.tenor.com/7-R1fzDqfKcAAAAC/snatch-ze-germans.gif

[joeysteele]

Where will she get the Armed services to defend the country ?

Well not from the UK government the mess they've made as to the UK's defences anyhow.
Who will Scotland need defending from.

That will easily be possible anyhow.
I see no issues on that score.

It wasn't an issue really in the 2014 referendum.
Had Scotland voted yes then.
So no reason for that to be so now.

I can't answer your question as I'm not in Nicola Sturgeon's policy planning circle.
I'm sure she would answer it very easily and clearly for you though.

[hijaxers]

There are Scottish troops within the British army :laugh: Plus, they'll be an EU member within 5 minutes, and who do Scotland need defending from?

https://media.tenor.com/7-R1fzDqfKcAAAAC/snatch-ze-germans.gif


Yes the British army ! they'll have to leave and join the new Scottish army .As for joining the EU in 5 mins :joker::joker::joker:

[The Slim Reaper]

Yes the British army ! they'll have to leave and join the new Scottish army .As for joining the EU in 5 mins :joker::joker::joker:

I'm pretty sure they'd just be transferred or reassigned without the need for discharge and then re-admittance.

Scotland was a 62% remain country who've seen their export market destroyed by brexit, so those jokers just highlight what you don't know, not what you think you do :blush:

[bots]

Scotland were told the last time that they would need to join the EU queue like everyone else, that wont have changed

[The Slim Reaper]

Scotland were told the last time that they would need to join the EU queue like everyone else, that wont have changed

Ukraine has changed the game for member candidacy.

[James]

Scotland being in the EU or Single Market and the UK not - would cause a load of problems.

[arista]

The Supreme Court
is Live on all 3 News Channels

Lord Reed is talking

[arista]

Once he goes through it all

He should give an Answer

[arista]

The Judge has Ruled
Scotland can not have another Ref,
without the UK permission.


Scottish Parliament cannot hold independence Vote

[arista]

[IndyRef2: Second Scottish independence
referendum needs Westminster's approval,
Supreme Court rules]


https://news.sky.com/story/indyref2-second-scottish-independence-referendum-needs-westminsters-approval-supreme-court-rules-12753590

[arista]

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2022/11/23/10/64853681-0-image-m-5_1669197750815.jpg


[Nicola Sturgeon today suffered
a massive setback in her battle
to split the UK - as the Supreme Court ruled
she cannot hold a referendum without
approval from Westminster.]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11460895/Sturgeon-LOSES-bid-force-fresh-Scottish-referendum-without-PMs-approval.html

[Cherie]

Great win for the remainers

[bots]

at least she has an excuse now for looking permanently grumpy

[arista]

Grumpy Sturgeon
Goes Live at 11:30AM

[arista]

Grumpy is Now Live

[arista]

She has lost her right


So now its some mickey mouse scheme
during the General Election.

[Oliver_W]

She's really salty that "once in a lifetime" things don't roll around whenever they don't go her way.

[Crimson Dynamo]

The referendum was never once in a lifetime and when Scots went to the polls that was not part of the vote

[bots]

let's see the snp give up their seats in the uk parliament if they are so serious about independence

[Beso]

She has lost her right


So now its some mickey mouse scheme
during the General Election.

Time to go.

[user104658]

let's see the snp give up their seats in the uk parliament if they are so serious about independence

Why would they do that before achieving independence? :think: I don't think it's sensible for anyone to start shooting themselves in the feet just to "prove some sort of point" :laugh:

[user104658]

It's fairly obvious that no one ever expected this to go any other way; the point of this was so that they can now state with actual objective evidence that the UK is not a "voluntary union of equals" as has been frequently claimed. We now have it legally determined in the supreme court that this is false. As opposed to it just being entirely obvious.

That's actually quite a lot more impactful for the UK than people realise.

Scotland is not an equal member state in a voluntary union. Scotland is a vassal state. This is undeniable proof of that. It's not good global optics for England at all, especially as a country with such significant colonial history.

[Beso]

Scotlands fault for what they signed off and agreed to, to get devolution.

[bots]

Personally, if Scotland are that desperate for independence then let them have the vote, but they really can't keep having a vote every few years, there has to be some point where they accept its a once in a generation vote

I'm Scottish and i'm fed up with the snp droning on about it and at this point i would simply say good luck, on you go

[Oliver_W]

Would they still have their free universities and other things they get that we don't, if they truly became their own country?

[arista]

Time to go.


For Sure

[arista]

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/1577/production/_127759450_metro-nc.png.webp

[user104658]

Personally, if Scotland are that desperate for independence then let them have the vote, but they really can't keep having a vote every few years, there has to be some point where they accept its a once in a generation vote

As a voluntary union of equals, it should be a binding vote until something substantially changes within the political landscape of that union, where there is a clear and demonstrable difference of opinion between the member states. At which point, the possibility of dissolving that union should be raised.

i.e. Brexit.

This is the only rational, reasonable take on how "frequency of vote possibility" should work. If they have a vote now and it's still to remain in the union, then there shouldn't be another vote "in a generation" if there's no similar divergence in a generation. If there's no major political divergence in 200 years, then there shouldn't be a vote in those 200 years. If there's another major political divergence in 10 years then there should be another vote in 10 years.

"Once in a generation" is arbitrary nonsense that, looking at the issue rationally, means absolutely nothing.

[user104658]

As we know it isn't a union of equals, The Supreme Court confirms that Scotland, Wales and NI are vassal states not voluntary member states of a union. There is no voluntary union. It doesn't exist. We now have documented proof of this. The supreme court of the UK ruled that member states of a union need the permission of the largest member state in that union in order to hold a vote on voluntary union membership. An absolute joke :joker:.

[Cherie]

As a voluntary union of equals, it should be a binding vote until something substantially changes within the political landscape of that union, where there is a clear and demonstrable difference of opinion between the member states. At which point, the possibility of dissolving that union should be raised.

i.e. Brexit.

This is the only rational, reasonable take on how "frequency of vote possibility" should work. If they have a vote now and it's still to remain in the union, then there shouldn't be another vote "in a generation" if there's no similar divergence in a generation. If there's no major political divergence in 200 years, then there shouldn't be a vote in those 200 years. If there's another major political divergence in 10 years then there should be another vote in 10 years.

"Once in a generation" is arbitrary nonsense that, looking at the issue rationally, means absolutely nothing.


you know that if there was a vote tomorrow and remain narrowly won we would be looking at another vote in less than 5 years, once is a generation is just that, it doesn't matter what goes on as no one can predict the future, a vote is a vote as with Brexit even though it is hurting the UK it is what it is, its not like the Scots didnt know it was once in a life time and that they lowered the voting age so every advantage was given for them to leave and they didn't take it, I would add to that that many Brexiteers would vote differently now imo but they are not going to get the option, and they were lied to...so

[user104658]

you know that if there was a vote tomorrow and remain narrowly won we would be looking at another vote in less than 5 years, once is a generation is just that, it doesn't matter what goes on as no one can predict the future, a vote is a vote as with Brexit even though it is hurting the UK it is what it is, its not like the Scots didnt know it was once in a life time and that they lowered the voting age so every advantage was given for them to leave and they didn't take it

There's no reasonable argument that "once in a generation" (vague, and was only descriptive and never legally binding) is a better trigger for a political vote than substantive political change. It's little more than a large-scale filibuster.

But let's say it holds water.

There have been 6 generations in the last 100 years. That places "a generation" at (roughly) 16 years. The referendum was in 2014 ... by the "once in a generation" rule, can we have one in 2030 pretty please? Or will there be a new excuse :idc:.

[Cherie]

There's no reasonable argument that "once in a generation" (vague, and was only descriptive and never legally binding) is a better trigger for a political vote than substantive political change. It's little more than a large-scale filibuster.

But let's say it holds water

There have been 6 generations in the last 100 years. That places "a generation" at (roughly) 16 years. The referendum was in 2014 ... by the "once in a generation" rule, can we have one in 2030 pretty please? Or will there be a new excuse :idc:.

2030 sounds about right tbf, and that would be fine it we didnt have to arduously have to go through Nicola demanding a new vote every 5 minutes

I would also argue that she might have backed herself into a corner that Labour can seize on for the next election as those in favour of the Union will have a hard decision to make now as voting for the SNP would be a vote for the break up....

[bots]

As we know it isn't a union of equals, The Supreme Court confirms that Scotland, Wales and NI are vassal states not voluntary member states of a union. There is no voluntary union. It doesn't exist. We now have documented proof of this. The supreme court of the UK ruled that member states of a union need the permission of the largest member state in that union in order to hold a vote on voluntary union membership. An absolute joke :joker:.

that's an argument of false equivalence. England couldn't just dump Scotland from the union either.

[user104658]

that's an argument of false equivalence. England couldn't just dump Scotland from the union either.

The Westminster government could choose to hold a referendum on dissolving the United Kingdom and there would be no scope for veto of that vote by any of the other member states. They wouldn't, because Scotland has resources that (looking to the future) England cannot reasonably survive without. But they could, and that's the point. It's not a union of equals, it's a union based on the power of population majority, which is so disproportionate that it results in England having unilateral decision making power. Honestly I find any argument to the contrary disingenuous ... even those who believe that everyone is better off with the union in place, if they're being honest, still knows that the above is true.

[James]

Scotland has more power in the United Kingdom because we have a devolved parliament.

London didn't vote in favour of Brexit, and hasn't returned a majority of MPs of the current governing party in about 30 years. That doesn't mean that London should become an independent city-state.

[arista]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FmfjA7RWAAAENUb?format=jpg&name=900x900


In her so called Free Nation
she is in a mess, over what money to use