Terror Alerts in London

[lindyloo]

Sorry if this is posted elsewhere and/or this is the wrong place.

According to Sky News and BBC the police may have foiled a terror plot after a vehicle packed with 60 litres of petrol, nails and gas canisters was dumped in Haymarket in the early hours.

Park Lane is also now sealed off due to a suspect vehicle.

http://news.sky.com/skynews/home

[x_mel_x]

Its so scary, I'm meant to be going Oxford Street tomorrow but dont wanna go anymore!

[Mrluvaluva]

Marble Arch is also closed. There are loads of sirens and helicopters. There are other suspect vehicles. It's scary.

[Mrluvaluva]

In a new security alert, Park Lane and Oxford Street have been closed to traffic due to suspect vehicles.

[Mrluvaluva]

They are talking about possible closure of the whole west end. Yay. I can go home early!

[Mrluvaluva]

Hyde Park is shut off.

[Pipergun]

My Dad works in London - he was down the road from the Bus bomb on 7/7, had just left Kings Cross before the fire in the 1980s, and had to hide in his hotel cupboard as the hotel down the road from him exploded in Nigeria. :shocked:

Don't worry, Mel - they're all isolated incidents, and let's face it - London is going to be at its safest tomorrow, cause security will be very tight. Go and have a good time still! :thumbs:

[spacebandit]

Wonder if we'll see another police investigation crippled by political correctness.........:cloud:

[Mrluvaluva]

I am worried about getting home. Apparently Oxford Circus is closed.

[spitfire]

Originally posted by PipergunDon't worry, Mel - they're all isolated incidents, and let's face it - London is going to be at its safest tomorrow, cause security will be very tight. Go and have a good time still! :thumbs: :thumbs: Shop till you drop Mel,dont let the bastards beat you.:thumbs:

[J.C.]

That's a bit spooky, I was thinking about this a few days ago and wondering why there wasn't a warning to people, as Blair's last few days were approaching.

[Psylocke]

Has anyone noticed,that terroists are always really fugly.

[Mrluvaluva]

Originally posted by Psylocke
Has anyone noticed,that terroists are always really fugly.

Trust you!

[BigSister]

Hope you can get home Baz

[Mrluvaluva]

Me too! Fleet Street has been closed now!

[BigSister]

Looks like you might be there for the night then. Dont worry we will keep you up to date on eviction

[Mrluvaluva]

Nooooooo. Lol. I need BB. Haha. I am leaving in a minute anyway.

[James_15]

Don't worry about it..

my dads a detective and he's got this case :D

lol

[BigSister]

oh thtas good then Baz hope you get home safely

[Sticks]

I was visiting the channel 4 forum and already the conspiracy theorists are pointing out how convenient the timing is.

Maybe GB has had a few tips from GWB on how to fake terrorist attacks to make yourself look good

Where do these ideas get dredged up form?

:rolleyes:

[Dr43%er]

I see know one is talking about the postal strike :wink:

[Mrluvaluva]

Police have found a 2nd device now.

[Wiglet]

Hope you are speaing from your home PC Baz and not from the office!

Very worrying and it would appear that Iraqi tactics have come to London. Thank goodness the first car was found it looks like by accident? Someone maybe was affected by the gas fumes and if not for that there may have been a huge amount of fatalities today.
Doesn't bare worth thinking about but we have to because we have to ensure we are safe.

[Mrluvaluva]

I am at home now Wiglet thanks.

It is very worrying. They only diffused the first bomb in the nick of time. It just doesn't bear thinking about. If that ambulance crew had not been called to the club, who knows?

[nodisharmony]

It is worrying and if the Bombs did go off? Then the fear of terrorism is brought back again.

If you live in London, then you will know that if a bomb is going to go off, it is more than likely to be there.


Here is an article about it:-



Two Bombs Were Set To Blow In London
Updated: 21:13, Friday June 29, 2007

Police have confirmed that not one, but two massive car bombs were set to explode in the heart of London's West End.
The first car, in Haymarket, was a metallic green Mercedes packed with petrol, gas cannisters and nails, and was defused after police were alerted by an ambulance crew called to an incident at a nearby nightclub.
The second was in a car that was illegally parked nearby and towed to the Park Lane car pound.
Staff there alerted police because "it smelled of gas."

Car removed from sceneThat device has also been made safe and has been taken away for examination.

In a news conference Deputy Assistant Commissioner Peter Clarke said the second car, a blue Mercedes, was parked a few hundred yards from the first in Cockspur Street which runs between Haymarket and Trafalgar Square.

It was issued with a parking ticket at around 2:30am before being towed to the Park Lane car pound where staff alerted police.

DAC Clarke said: "The vehicle was found to contain very similar materials to the first vehicle in Haymarket.

"There was a considerable amount of fuel and gas cannisters, as in the first vehicle. There was also a substantial quantity of nails.

"This device, like the first was potentially viable and was made safe by explosives officers. The vehicles are clearly linked."

"The discovery of a second bomb is obviously troubling and reinforces the need for the public to remain vigilant."

He also asked anyone who may have seen the blue Mercedes parked in Cockspur Street to come forward.


Hyde Park and Park Lane sealed offSky News sources say one of the first police officers on the scene of the Haymarket car bomb may have saved dozens of lives by defusing the explosives before the bomb squad arrived.

It is believed the quick-thinking cop recognised that the car was wired to blow up, jumped in and disconnected the trigger device, thought to be a mobile phone.

The device, which contained 60 litres of petrol, a large amount of nails and several gas canisters, was found in the Mercedes early this morning.

Police had received reports of a suspicious vehicle close to the Tiger Tiger nightclub in Piccadilly shortly before 2am.

An ambulance crew, who treated a person in the club in an unrelated incident, reported that there was smoke inside the car.

Home Secretary Jacqui Smith said the UK is "currently facing the most serious and sustained threat" and authorities are doing everything they can to protect the public.

Police believe they have foiled a major terror attack and said if the Haymarket bomb had gone off it could have caused "significant injury or loss of life".

The timing coincided with hundreds of revellers leaving nightspots, but police said there was no intelligence to suggest such an attack.


Vehicle examined for cluesThe area was cordoned off by officers who examined the metallic green car, outside an American Express foreign exchange, and then discovered the device.

Deputy Assistant Commissioner Peter Clarke, head of Scotland Yard's counter-terrorism command, paid tribute to those who manually defused it, saying they had not only saved lives but gave forensic officers the opportunity to gather a substantial amount of material.

He said it was too early to speculate about who was involved, and called on the public to remain vigilant.

Officers have appealed for witnesses who may have seen anything suspicious in the Haymarket area last night and early this morning. The number is 0800 789 321.

Extra police patrols are taking place across London following the incident.

Whitehall sources said that the police and security services are looking at possible international links - including similarities to car bombs used by insurgents in Iraq.

Mr Brown said the incident reminds us that Britain faces "a serious and continuous threat" and the public "need to be alert" at all times.


Device found in HaymarketThe Haymarket is in the heart of London's theatreland, which is packed with thousands of people through most of the day and night.

Police have begun an investigation and the suspect vehicle was removed from the scene for detailed forensic examinations.

Detectives will be looking at CCTV footage from the area surrounding the Haymarket and interviewing witnesses, including staff from the nightclub.

Congestion charge cameras, which recognise number plates and run 24 hours a day, will be able to track the route of the vehicle into the capital.

Former head of the Flying Squad John O'Connor said the attacker had most probably "bottled it" and was likely to be a homegrown terrorist.

There has been major traffic disruption to the area, with several roads shut, along with Piccadilly Circus Tube station.

The Home Secretary chaired an emergency Cobra meeting about the terror scare and then briefed the Cabinet.

Enhanced security measures have been put in place at the Houses of Westminster in the wake of the incident.

The discovery of the car bomb comes just under two years since suicide attacks killed 52 people in the capital.

Another 784 were injured when four bombs exploded on London's transport network on July 7, 2005.





nodisharmony :angel:

[J.C.]

It's a big worry that they have found two devices, and both by luck. There are so many cars in the West End it must be making it very difficult, but at least no one has been hurt so far and I guess there will be much forensic evidence left with the undetonated devices. Everyone needs to be careful in all cities at the moment.

[Sticks]

Sounds like a standard tactic from the IRA days

Detonate one device

Wait for the police and emergency services to arrive to deal with the first device

Then kill them with your secondary

Ruthlessly efficient, and is what contributed to the body count in the Deal bombing

Of course as pointed out this was secretly a diversion by the Machiavellian Gordon Brown to bury the bad news of the postal strike :rolleyes:

[Lauren]

So he'd rather the whole country thinks we're in the midst of another Labour-caused terrorist society than to allow us to think some postmen aren't working for the day?
I'm no fan of Gordon Brown by any means, but he isn't stupid.

[Bells]

Quite scary, considering I was in London all day yesterday with some friends from school - typical that the day I go, this happens. Luckily though nothing was affected - all the tubes were still operating, so it seems as if anything suspicious was dealt with really quickly.

[Dr43%er]

From BBC.


Car crashes into airport building

Glasgow Airport has been evacuated following reports that a car has struck the main terminal building and burst into flames.

All flights have been suspended following the incident which happened on Saturday afternoon.

Eyewitnesses have described a Jeep Cherokee being driven at speed towards the building with flames coming out from underneath.

The fire and ambulance service are at the scene along with the police.

[BB-Rocks]

Its all over the news.

[Jonfonn!]

I went shopping today at the metro (one of the largest shopping centres in europe.. anyways i walked out the lift like fast past me mam and this police man came running up to is.. on notised i was with my mam LOL and theres a line of police man in every enterance.. haha

[agentcollins]

London cars ysterday

Ibiza airport bomb today

Glasgow Airport car today

Could they all be connected?

[Dr43%er]

Ibiza will probably be the work of ETTA, the Basque separatist.

[Tanser_Man]

I think this country is becoming a haven for wannabie terrorists.

At work, we have a large number of imigrants from various parts of the middle east and you only have to look at the toilet cubicles to see exactly what they think about Britain.

"British Women are dirt"
"**** the English"
"We will bomb the **** out of you"

Just a snippet of there hatred.

Then this story arises about fanatics trying to kill and maim hundreds, possiblie thousands of people, mainly women in the heart of London.

Then theres reports of men with molotov cocktails and an ablaze car trying to burn down and kill people in Glasgow.

It's pathetic, there jusifying there own stereotypical tendencies by killing innocent civilians. And for what?

Get's me so angry, when we harbour such idiots in this great country.

[spitfire]

Thats what happens when you open the doors and let every Tom, Dick and Tariq into the country. Blame the lefties who cry racism over stringent immigration checks.

[Sticks]

This is what happens when you throw petrol on a volatile situation, like giving a knighthood to Salmond Rushdie. That should have been blocked, just like the knighthood for professor Colin More was blocked because his work involving animal experiments might be seen as too controversial.

The people who gave him that award must bear some responsibility.

[Diablo]

luckily no one was hurt today in the airport attack.. i think this is the first attack on Glasgow.. :bored:

[J.C.]

I suppose it is possibly worth mentioning that having had this continuous spate of incidents in very different types of places and locations , I would suggest being very careful to all train travelers at the moment, especially stations with wide open entrances or glass fronts. I know this may seem over reactive or dramatic but there is a pattern emerging. The alert is now at critical which is the top level and means the next attack is imminently expected.

[Tanser_Man]

Originally posted by J.C.
I suppose it is possibly worth mentioning that having had this continuous spate of incidents in very different types of places and locations , I would suggest being very careful to all train travelers at the moment, especially stations with wide open entrances or glass fronts. I know this may seem over reactive or dramatic but there is a pattern emerging. The alert is now at critical which is the top level and means the next attack is imminently expected.

Hmm it makes you think where they'll try and ram a car into next.

Shopping Centres... Music Festivals.... Nightclubs...

Whats stopping them?

[J.C.]

^^There isn't much to stop them other than luck so far. I give much credit to the security services over the past few years for preventing several incidents, but that can change so quickly. The list of possible targets is clearly endless but at the moment it looks like groups of people and near places with possible car access.

[Matt]

It's scary to think those bombs could have gone off and caused so much chaos and destruction.

A sad representation of today's society.

[nodisharmony]

The bombing & terrorism will Never stop & London will always be the target. We were lucky this time, but get ready for the word "Unlucky" real soon :sad:

It is what fanatics and certain people from another country or origin believe in.

How many suicide bombers are English through'n'through?

You need to understand the facts!!!







nodisharmony :angel:

[J.C.]

I wonder how far the security forces are allowed to go when trying to get information from the two being held. These two seem like they almost have to be guilty and failed suicide bombers, But they may well have information that could save lives. Quite a predicament. :spin2:

[Chanelle2win]

What A Stupid Way To Bomb An Airport

?drive a car throught i door?

i bet the only person they injurd was them self

and then to get out of the car only to be arrested

complete idiots

[spacebandit]

Originally posted by Chanelle2win
What A Stupid Way To Bomb An Airport

?drive a car throught i door?

i bet the only person they injurd was them self

and then to get out of the car only to be arrested

complete idiots

Nothing stupid about it, as a suicide bombing it was very very inept - I'll give you that
But........
It closes the airport and gets all over the news everywhere in the world, which is the very essence of terrorism.

Its time we took the gloves off and stopped pussyfooting around with these animals and the people on these islands who harbour them

[dtd2]

I'm very confused by them. In America, the picture of the radicals that we have always been given is that they are willing to die to kill others, but so far all three of these plans have failed and appears as if they tried to get away each time. I think that it is very lucky no one has been killed and that only one person had a leg injury and I hope that everyone continues to be lucky, but I think tomorrow or actually today for you guys, with Diana concert and Wimbledon something bad could happen. Also here in the states the air ports are on high alert. I hope that all of you remain safe.

[Lauren]

Originally posted by jono1507
I went shopping today at the metro (one of the largest shopping centres in europe.. anyways i walked out the lift like fast past me mam and this police man came running up to is.. on notised i was with my mam LOL and theres a line of police man in every enterance.. haha

OMG me too! I was at the Metro today and it was teeming with police!

[Lauren]

Originally posted by Sticks
This is what happens when you throw petrol on a volatile situation, like giving a knighthood to Salmond Rushdie. That should have been blocked, just like the knighthood for professor Colin More was blocked because his work involving animal experiments might be seen as too controversial.

The people who gave him that award must bear some responsibility.

The term "pussyfooting" and "nanny state" come to mind when reading your post, Sticks.

Salman Rushdie's knighthood should in no way be blocked, The Satanic Verses was a work of literary genius, giving insight to an otherwise closed idea/world.

[Sticks]

So it is alright to insult our Muslim allies overseas and the muslim world in general, but not the animal rights people then?

Why should lives be lost to give a sop to the liberal intelligentsia?

[Jonfonn!]

Originally posted by Lauren
Originally posted by jono1507
I went shopping today at the metro (one of the largest shopping centres in europe.. anyways i walked out the lift like fast past me mam and this police man came running up to is.. on notised i was with my mam LOL and theres a line of police man in every enterance.. haha

OMG me too! I was at the Metro today and it was teeming with police!

Yeah in the morning the police didnt let anyone in the blue multi car pack and like through to them toilets.. if ya know what i mean.. so we had to go all around just to get to big lukes lol

[Lauren]

Originally posted by Sticks
So it is alright to insult our Muslim allies overseas and the muslim world in general, but not the animal rights people then?

Why should lives be lost to give a sop to the liberal intelligentsia?

I have many Muslim friends whom appreciate literary works of authors, regardless of the topic at hand - including Salman Rushdie's novel. I'm a student representative of amnesty international and not one person I know is actually insulted at the novel - I'm beginning to suspect these people who are offended are simply fundamentalists.

Many books are based on personal opinion, and infused with values personal to that reader - there's no doubting those books are excellent to deserve a knighthood.

I'm not saying it's "alright" to insult Muslims and not animal rights protesters, but as soon as a novel is released with as much literary genius as Sir. Rushdie - about Animal Rights, then I would never be insulted for the author to receive a knighthood.

Edit: Jono, I was at Big Lukes too! On the morning! :shocked:

[Tanser_Man]

I've just read something aswell which has got my back up.

In another forum, someone posted that this whole situation over the last few days has been a conspiracy against the Muslim people, so hatred is propelled there way. Excuse me but how you you stage something of this magnitude! If the bombs actually went off and people were killed, would they still be coming out with this drivel! It's narrowminded and a pathetic way to basically show support to terrorists!

If this was a response to the Rushdie knighthood then I suggest we knight him again and again.

[spacebandit]

Originally posted by Tanser_Man
I've just read something aswell which has got my back up.

In another forum, someone posted that this whole situation over the last few days has been a conspiracy against the Muslim people, so hatred is propelled there way. Excuse me but how you you stage something of this magnitude! If the bombs actually went off and people were killed, would they still be coming out with this drivel! It's narrowminded and a pathetic way to basically show support to terrorists!

If this was a response to the Rushdie knighthood then I suggest we knight him again and again.

Anything to divert attention from the reality.

Complaints are raised when the police raid houses belonging to muslims, they accuse the police of singling them out.

Well who the hell should the police raid if not muslims as the terror threat to this country originates from the radical islamic community - didn't hear no complaints back in the 70's and 80's from muslims when irish people were being raided.

I find it astonishing that any kind of excuse could be made for murder - yes they failed, but murder was the intent.

To blame it on the Rushdie knighthood or even attempt to single it out as a cause is not only offensive but exactly what the extremist muslim community want - a ready made excuse to divert attention from the true aims of radical Islam, which is, as admitted by Al Quaeda - to make the world Moslem.

No there is no excuse - we have to take the gloves off to deal with these murdering scum and anyone who harbours them ...... and their apologists can rot in hell as far as I'm concerned.

Apologists are just gutless cowards providing excuses for something that deep down they agree with and rejoice at the sight of - their own private expressions of belief - by proxy

[Sticks]

Originally posted by Tanser_Man
I've just read something aswell which has got my back up.

In another forum, someone posted that this whole situation over the last few days has been a conspiracy against the Muslim people, so hatred is propelled there way. Excuse me but how you you stage something of this magnitude! If the bombs actually went off and people were killed, would they still be coming out with this drivel! It's narrowminded and a pathetic way to basically show support to terrorists!

They already have, for reference see all the 911 conspiracy theories - apparently the Israeli government subcontracted Bush to carry it out to put the blame on the Muslims.

On Rushdie, if we keep upsetting the moderatates then we keep making more radicals. Somebody should have seen how this would have been received and blocked it. They did so with Professor Colin Moore.

[Lauren]

It's important at this time to differentiate between moderate muslims and fundamentalists. Moderate Muslims are in the majority and are every bit as British as Christian Brits - they're the victims also, many died on 7/7.
"Upsetting" moderate Muslims doesn't turn them into raging radicals.

[Tanser_Man]

Originally posted by Sticks
Originally posted by Tanser_Man
I've just read something aswell which has got my back up.

In another forum, someone posted that this whole situation over the last few days has been a conspiracy against the Muslim people, so hatred is propelled there way. Excuse me but how you you stage something of this magnitude! If the bombs actually went off and people were killed, would they still be coming out with this drivel! It's narrowminded and a pathetic way to basically show support to terrorists!

They already have, for reference see all the 911 conspiracy theories - apparently the Israeli government subcontracted Bush to carry it out to put the blame on the Muslims.

On Rushdie, if we keep upsetting the moderatates then we keep making more radicals. Somebody should have seen how this would have been received and blocked it. They did so with Professor Colin Moore.

But that is exactly what it is, references built on sentences starting with apparently and possibly but no hard facts to back there claims. People would rather steer from the truth and believe things to appease there own minds rather then realise the sheer magnitude of the evil we are facing in this modern age. It has nothing to do with George Bush, Tony Blair or anyone else you want to throw into the cauldron, it’s to do with evil twisted fanatics intent on causing death and destruction based on futile beliefs.

About Rushdie, why should we care who it upsets. He deserves being knighted purely because he is firstly a great novelist and secondly for producing great literary work throughout his career and I don’t see why he should be vilified and made an example of because people feel one of his novels weren’t to there liking. He took his punishment, nearly ten years of being torn apart by these very people who preach about how there religion is peaceful. Yet he received death threats and had to live anomalously! Hmm, that’s rich!

This country is being walked upon again and again, it’s about time the government show there backbone.

[Tanser_Man]

Originally posted by Lauren
It's important at this time to differentiate between moderate muslims and fundamentalists. Moderate Muslims are in the majority and are every bit as British as Christian Brits - they're the victims also, many died on 7/7.
"Upsetting" moderate Muslims doesn't turn them into raging radicals.

Moderate Muslims are great, but as in any situation, the minority will tarnish the reputation of the majority.

I have friends from all ethnicities and backgrounds and would never have a bad word to say against any of them because i know they want whats best for Britain and generally love living here and would not use there religions to justify killing and maiming innocent victims.

[Sticks]

Colin Moore was a dedicated scientist, but because some of his work involved animal experiments, his knighthood was blocked as it would have been seen as too controversial. Why the lack of consistency here?

[Lauren]

Originally posted by Sticks
Colin Moore was a dedicated scientist, but because some of his work involved animal experiments, his knighthood was blocked as it would have been seen as too controversial. Why the lack of consistency here?

One was illegal? As far as I know, Colin Moore didn't follow the Bateson Decision Cube on using animals and so didn't follow government guidelines on using them within experiments.

[Tanser_Man]

Originally posted by Sticks
Colin Moore was a dedicated scientist, but because some of his work involved animal experiments, his knighthood was blocked as it would have been seen as too controversial. Why the lack of consistency here?

Weren’t we talking about Mr Rushdie? I don't really know much about Colin Moore so I’m not going to act like I do but I feel if anyone has been given the chance to be knighted then it should be withheld [they obviously have been offered it for a reason!]. So to answer your question was there a lack of consistency, maybe, but in no way does that mean because he was denied, so should Rushdie or because Rushdie is being knighted, there are exterior motives.

[Dr43%er]

"Thats what happens when you open the doors and let every Tom, Dick and Tariq into the country. Blame the lefties who cry racism over stringent immigration checks."

As the Glasgow "bombers" were both doctors they will have been welcomed with open arms.

[Lauren]

Originally posted by Dr43%er
"Thats what happens when you open the doors and let every Tom, Dick and Tariq into the country. Blame the lefties who cry racism over stringent immigration checks."

As the Glasgow "bombers" were both doctors they will have been welcomed with open arms.

And so they should.
We're never going to be able to stop terrorist attacks by blocking our borders to absolutely everybody - especially not doctors and members of society that can contribute to the infrastructure of GB. However, we can significantly reduce this risk by blocking our borders to people without proper documentation and a willingness to work.

[Jonfonn!]

Originally posted by Lauren
Originally posted by Sticks
So it is alright to insult our Muslim allies overseas and the muslim world in general, but not the animal rights people then?

Why should lives be lost to give a sop to the liberal intelligentsia?

I have many Muslim friends whom appreciate literary works of authors, regardless of the topic at hand - including Salman Rushdie's novel. I'm a student representative of amnesty international and not one person I know is actually insulted at the novel - I'm beginning to suspect these people who are offended are simply fundamentalists.

Many books are based on personal opinion, and infused with values personal to that reader - there's no doubting those books are excellent to deserve a knighthood.

I'm not saying it's "alright" to insult Muslims and not animal rights protesters, but as soon as a novel is released with as much literary genius as Sir. Rushdie - about Animal Rights, then I would never be insulted for the author to receive a knighthood.

Edit: Jono, I was at Big Lukes too! On the morning! :shocked:

ya jokin is i was to!! i was in around.. 10:45 to 11.30...ermmmm i had a leather jacket on like what liam weared when he went in the bbb house... ummm.. i cant remember what else i weared... well... like you would remember LOL but i was there! lol what time were you in??

[Kristen]

This is really a frightening situation.
It has been on the news in Australia and I have been talking to relatives back home. I don't live in London and would hate it TBH but I do go down quite a bit however my family is staying in Newbury until it hopefully cools over.

[Lauren]

Originally posted by jono1507
you jokin is i was to!! i was in around.. 10:45 to 11.30...ermmmm i had a leather jacket on like what liam weared when he went in the bbb house... ummm.. i cant remember what else i weared... well... like you would remember LOL but i was there! lol what time were you in??

:shocked: I think we were in the same time! I can't remember seeing you, I was wearing a red top and sitting at the back of big lukes (furthest away from all the buffet food). How very weird. :laugh:

[Jonfonn!]

Originally posted by Lauren
Originally posted by jono1507
you jokin is i was to!! i was in around.. 10:45 to 11.30...ermmmm i had a leather jacket on like what liam weared when he went in the bbb house... ummm.. i cant remember what else i weared... well... like you would remember LOL but i was there! lol what time were you in??

:shocked: I think we were in the same time! I can't remember seeing you, I was wearing a red top and sitting at the back of big lukes (furthest away from all the buffet food). How very weird. :laugh:


ohh mint! lol

[BigSister]

Theres been arrests near where i live too they are saying it might not be connected but I fear the worse...