BBC withdrew from Stonewall diversity scheme LGBT charity

[arista]

n Wednesday it
wouldn't be renewing its participation
with Stonewall
But it will continue to work with
a range of organisations to support its LGBT staff]

[Along with many other UK employers,
the BBC has participated in
Stonewall's Diversity Champions Programme
to support our objective to create
a fully inclusive workplace.
'However, over time, our participation
in the programme has led some to
question whether the BBC can be
impartial when reporting on public policy debates
where Stonewall is taking an active role.']

[More than 900 organisations in the UK have
signed up to the scheme,
which aims to promote inclusion in the workplace.

It is described by Stonewall as
'the leading employers' programme for
ensuring all LGBTQ+ staff are free to
be themselves in the workplace'.

Following the announcement,
Stonewall said the BBC's decision was 'a shame'.]


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10190853/BBC-withdrew-Stonewall-diversity-scheme-didnt-want-appear-biased.html

Good Move by the Bloated BBC.

[Toy Soldier]

Stonewall is trash and the Diversity Champions Programme is some of the worst of it. Completely rooted in arbitrary ideology, not one iota of social research has gone into any of it.

[bots]

Stonewall is trash and the Diversity Champions Programme is some of the worst of it. Completely rooted in arbitrary ideology, not one iota of social research has gone into any of it.

and it was affecting the views of the companies that were in it, because they had to demonstrate how company employees were adhering to it. They should never have signed up for it in the first place

[Toy Soldier]

The sad thing is that they did SO much good for gay rights for decades, which is of course what built them the good reputation that has been used to gain positions of trust like this. But today’s issues need a scalpel not a hammer, science not simple ideology, and that’s where it’s all gone completely wrong.

The fundamental flaw is this bizarre belief that sexuality and gender are even remotely similar in terms of the impact of evolving rights. The revisionist notion that Gay Rights was ever about identity politics.

[Cherie]

If the BBC are backing off you know its gone astray

[Niamh.]

The sad thing is that they did SO much good for gay rights for decades, which is of course what built them the good reputation that has been used to gain positions of trust like this. But today’s issues need a scalpel not a hammer, science not simple ideology, and that’s where it’s all gone completely wrong.

The fundamental flaw is this bizarre belief that sexuality and gender are even remotely similar in terms of the impact of evolving rights. The revisionist notion that Gay Rights was ever about identity politics.Well this is the thing, sexual orientation which is what Stonewall fought for years to have accepted for gay and lesbian people is now actually transphobic by their standards today

[Niamh.]

If the BBC are backing off you know its gone astrayThe Nolan investigates Pod Casts had a lot to do with it as well I think, they're really good if you're ever looking for something to listen to, they're all on YouTube

[Livia]

About time.

[Cherie]

The Nolan investigates Pod Casts had a lot to do with it as well I think, they're really good if you're ever looking for something to listen to, they're all on YouTube

Oh cheers will have a search for those

[arista]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FDr-z7OXMAIYe_U?format=jpg&name=small

[arista]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FDr-z5TX0AE7aA_?format=jpg&name=small

No Fella

[arista]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FDr-z5PWYAMPuyR?format=jpg&name=small


No
you have no right to Demand
anything


Take it to Ofcom

[arista]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FEKYWGxXsAUG-3p?format=jpg&name=900x900


Outside BBC Central London.

[arista]

1459902378082189316

[arista]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FEKBLUtXsAE0x3i?format=jpg&name=4096x4096


Large Photo
Sunday Times V2 Section BBC news boss
today.

[Cherie]

No way imagine how awful it must be to hear diverse views while working at a publically funded broadcaster .... the poor pets ...someone grab the smelling salts

[Tom4784]

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[Tom4784]

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[Elliot]

A bunch of straight people cheering this on is peak Tibb. Just grow a backbone, stop hiding behind a smokescreen, and say what you really want to say. It's fairly obvious to anyone with eyes, anyway.

Yeah, and it’s such a shame, because trans people were at the frontline for the fight for women’s rights, and at the front line of stone wall, and to watch people who’d otherwise prod themselves around as allies throw trans people under the bus is so sad.

[Toy Soldier]

It's in the name, 'Stonewall.'

Go look up the Stonewall riots, go look up the people who were instrumental in it, go look up their impact on civil rights as a whole. Most of them were trans people of colour, and the fight for gay rights is just as much about trans rights as it is about anything else, because it was trans people that threw the first brick and begun the march towards what we have today.


If you can’t see why 90% of your post isn’t an argument against Stonewall being a high-level advisory group in corporations and governments then I don’t know what to say. Political pressure groups absolutely have their place in social progress, policy advisory groups absolutely have their place in social progress. Not when both are the same organisation. When deciding policy what’s required is robust social research and a careful examination of best-practice, not brick throwing, riots and base ideology. This is honestly the crux of the entire issue. This is where - if you can look past the bigots who just want a bandwagon to jump on - 99% of the problem lies. They’re pushing policy change with no evidence base. That is a disaster.

And in the vast majority of cases you’ll find that trans people are not what anyone has an issue with, but rather gender theory being hammered as fact rather than open for debate, a drive to make rampant stereotyping immune from critique, self-id and the ways it benefits predators. The common error there often being people thinking “oh you’re calling trans people predators!” - no, people are pointing out that male predators will have no qualms with pretending to be trans. And the elephant in the room - that there IS a proportion of people who lump themselves in with genuine gender dysphoria but it’s actually autogynephilia and fetishism. Ignoring these issues helps no one, least of all trans people.

[Niamh.]

A bunch of straight people cheering this on is peak Tibb. Just grow a backbone, stop hiding behind a smokescreen, and say what you really want to say. It's fairly obvious to anyone with eyes, anyway.

I can't speak for anyone else on this thread but it isn't about gay rights for me. It's about how trans rights directly affect women's rights and I am a woman so why don't I have a right to speak about something that would affect me? Why are women not allowed a voice in this discussion?

[arista]

I can't speak for anyone else on this thread but it isn't about gay rights for me. It's about how trans rights directly affect women's rights and I am a woman so why don't I have a right to speak about something that would affect me? Why are women not allowed a voice in this discussion?



Yes well said.

[Cherie]

I can't speak for anyone else on this thread but it isn't about gay rights for me. It's about how trans rights directly affect women's rights and I am a woman so why don't I have a right to speak about something that would affect me? Why are women not allowed a voice in this discussion?

You know you are not allowed because women are second class citizens in the trans debate in his view

[Tom4784]

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[Oliver_W]

I can't speak for anyone else on this thread but it isn't about gay rights for me. It's about how trans rights directly affect women's rights and I am a woman so why don't I have a right to speak about something that would affect me? Why are women not allowed a voice in this discussion?

Quite.

Just because the apocryphal first brick "was thrown" by a drag queen some decades ago, doesn't excuse pushing gender ideology, especially at the expense of women's rights and spaces.

[bots]

everyone knows that the bbc news content has been dreadful for years. It's a public service not a voice piece to support a specific agenda

[Toy Soldier]

A lovely bit of patronisation, thank you.

Doesn't change the fact that Trans rights are LGBT rights and that if you oppose one of those letters, you oppose them all. You simply don't have gay rights in the west without Stonewall, you don't have gay rights without trans rights. It is intertwined.

This is dated rhetoric; you can't shut down this debate by calling people patronising or telling them that they have no place in it any more, it's not 2017. You can debate the topic on the facts and on it's merits and on hard evidence of what is actually best practice with good outcomes or ... :shrug: I guess you're free to soap-box but it's not part of the debate is it. Not worth listening to.

No one is opposing trans rights, people are opposing the idea that academic discussion and a committment to evidence-based best practice is akin to oppossing rights. I know there are people who would like to claim that any discussion = opposition. Those people are either disingenuous or simply lack a basic understanding of academic discourse, or an understanding that policy needs to be informed by said academic discourse (and not "I feel..." statements) to be worth the paper it's written on. None of that is anyone's problem other than their own.

The sentiment that "if you have concerns about one you have concerns about all" is simply a flat-out false narrative; it simply has to be, because there are plenty of gay people (especially gay women) who have MASSIVE concerns that they would like to have addressed, and I have seen many of these women attacked and harrassed horrendously. This "one is all" line is little more than the same dogma everyone has heard many times over. Women have concerns. Lesbian women have concerns. Those concerns can't continue to be swept away (mostly by gay men, in a sad irony of complex privilege) under a banner heading of "any concern = transphobia". It's a ****ing lie.

Also thank you Mr Straight cis-man for trying to declare a bunch of trans people as fetishists. I'm sure you know better than actual transpeople about how they feel.

I'll ignore the banal ad-hominem and ask if you're claiming that autogynephilic fetishism doesn't exist, because I didn't suggest for a second that this is the root of transexuality or that it's anything other than a small fringe group. They are in the minority but to suggest they don't exist is objectively false and everyone either knows it or is wearing blinkers because there have been a number of high-profile examples, as well as many dedicated forums and subreddits. It's also true that that small fringe group USES the "stonewalling" of the trans rights debate as a shield against something entirely different and I can think of no feasible reason that genuine trans people wouldn't be more angry about that than they are about the people who have concerns about it. But you're right, they're free to feel how they feel about whatever they want to feel anything about.

As are we all.

[Liam-]

To outright say ‘nobody is opposing trans rights’ is either knowingly a complete lie, or at least incredible naivety

[Toy Soldier]

To outright say ‘nobody is opposing trans rights’ is either knowingly a complete lie, or at least incredible naivety

I'm referring to this debate/this thread where no one has stated anything that is in opposition to trans rights, and the decision of the BBC to seek guidance from avenues other than Stonewall, which is also not an action in opposition to trans rights (in fact in my opinion, continuing down the path Stonewall is set on is has already been incredibly damaging to rights across the board and this will continue to snowball - however that part is subjective).

I was obviously not saying "no one anywhere ever opposes trans rights", but I apologise if that wasn't clear. I'm also not saying that no one on this forum or who has posted on this thread opposes trans rights. Just that nothing that has been posted on this thread is in opposition to the concept of trans rights.

[Tom4784]

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[Tom4784]

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[Oliver_W]

Political pressure groups absolutely have their place in social progress, policy advisory groups absolutely have their place in social progress. Not when both are the same organisation. When deciding policy what’s required is robust social research and a careful examination of best-practice, not brick throwing, riots and base ideology. This is honestly the crux of the entire issue. This is where - if you can look past the bigots who just want a bandwagon to jump on - 99% of the problem lies. They’re pushing policy change with no evidence base. That is a disaster.

Thing is, LGBT people have all the legal rights we actually need. So what are "activist" corporations going to do - call it a day and shut shop? Of course not.

So they need to invent issues to keep on banging the drum about. And they are basically genius conartists for coming up with their diversity index - not only do companies have to pay to be included on it, they can include their standing by giving Stonewall more money in exchange for poxy courses!

They're no better than any other fatcat corporations.

People who care for the rights of lesbians should be calling to protect lesbian spaces (and woman only spaces in general) which are compromised by the inclusion of transwomen.

[Tom4784]

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[Oliver_W]

Homophobic attacks are on the rise, .

Stonewall don't seem to be doing anything to address or help this. They're effectively useless at anything but pushing gender ideology.

[Toy Soldier]

You're a straight man trying to tell an LGBT person about their own history and dictate **** you do not understand or will never understand. Get some self-awareness, this ain't about you.

I’m not trying to tell anyone anything about the history of gay rights or stonewall by the way - transpeople and stonewall playing a large role in the history of gay rights has absolutely nothing to do with the current situations surrounding self-ID, the medical implications of Stonewall’s stances when advising within health services, the absolutely abysmal mounting situation with young people, children and mental health when it comes to gender identity politics (especially teenage girls), the ludicrous situation where gender ideology is “off the table” for academic discussion, the situation in sports, the situation with hormone prescription… the list is endless and in dire need of discussion.

But no it makes people feel anxious or triggered or whatever so let’s throw around insults like children and take it off the table.

Madness.

[Tom4784]

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[Oliver_W]

And what are the LGB doing? Oh right, absolutely nothing but demonising trans people.

What's "the LGB"? I have no idea what every lesbian, gay, and bisexual is doing.

[Cherie]

Why can’t straight men have an opinion...they will have women in their lives who this affects ...who knows they might even have LGBTQ relatives...gasp

[Elliot]

Why can’t straight men have an opinion...they will have women in their lives who this affects ...who knows they might even have LGBTQ relatives...gasp

When have the right ever cared about women lmao? They’ve spent the last few decades trying to outlaw abortion. Be careful who you lay your bed with

[Oliver_W]

When have the right ever cared about women lmao? They’ve spent the last few decades trying to outlaw abortion. Be careful who you lay your bed with

What does "the right" have to do with anything?

[Cherie]

When have the right ever cared about women lmao? They’ve spent the last few decades trying to outlaw abortion. Be careful who you lay your bed with

This isn’t a political issue ...

[Niamh.]

This isn’t a political issue ...Exactly. I would say I'm left leaning but every issue is different, we've lost all sense of critical thinking if we have to agree with the party line on every issue without using our own brains and life experience to form an opinion. Following the accepted views from one "side" without question is the definition of being a sheep

[Oliver_W]

Exactly. I would say I'm left leaning but every issue is different, we've lost all sense of critical thinking if we have to agree with the party line on every issue without using our own brains and life experience to form an opinion. Following the accepted views from one "side" without question is the definition of being a sheep

One might even say expecting women to give up their rights for males is pretty right wing :hehe:

[Niamh.]

One might even say expecting women to give up their rights for males is pretty right wing :hehe:Yeah, at the end of the day my only interest in this topic is women's rights, I don't care about left or right, I care about safety and fairness for women.

[Tom4784]

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[Oliver_W]

Well, it's a good job no one is saying women should give up their rights, isn't it? Inventing arguments that people haven't made to score points isn't a good look.

Expecting transwomen to have access to female spaces is asking women to give up woman-only spaces.

[Tom4784]

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[Toy Soldier]

Well, it's a good job no one is saying women should give up their rights, isn't it? Inventing arguments that people haven't made to score points isn't a good look.

At the absolute minimum, women have the right to open academic debate before changes are made to protections that were put into place specifically for women (hard-won protections, one might add) and an open and honest examination of the evidence base for it being a) safe and b) necessary... plus the right to offer counterpoints to that debate without being attacked or harrassed (or doxxed, or fired) for it.

That is not currently on offer. Debate is labelled hateful and transphobic by its very existence.

I'm not even conservative (in the literal sense) on this topic I think there are probably solutions and compromises that make things safer and fairer across the board - it's not as though things couldn't be improved regardless so why would anyone strictly want things to stay just as they are - but that place simply can't be reached without allowing research and debate. If there's no impact on women's rights then allow robust, peer-reviewed literature to show that there's no impact on women's rights and then you can state that there isn't with some actual gravitas. Until then there's just no realistic justification that it's reasonable to expect anyone to blindly accept.

[bots]

Only transphobes think it has to be one extreme or the other.

not true

[Tom4784]

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[Oliver_W]

Only transphobes think it has to be one extreme or the other.

Women either have the right to woman-only spaces, or they don't. In this case, it only can go one way or the other.