What is a woman?

[Niamh.]

How has this become a difficult question to answer? :laugh:


QZ9MM8CSZD8

[Crimson Dynamo]

sickening

[Oliver_W]

Adult Human Female.

Transwomen are transwomen.

[glib]

How ridiculous. They even got the dog dressed up for their woman’s march. Those purple masks are hideously ugly.

[Niamh.]

Adult Human Female.

Transwomen are transwomen.

Those two both saying they couldn't explain what a woman was because they don't identify as one as well :suspect: I mean how are we able to define 99% of stuff then if you can only define things you identify as?

[glib]

The masks ironically say ‘bans off our bodies’, a very far fetched pun!

[arista]

This is why the Labour Party UK
are confused

[Oliver_W]

Those two both saying they couldn't explain what a woman was because they don't identify as one as well :suspect: I mean how are we able to define 99% of stuff then if you can only define things you identify as?

Maybe they should have asked a (non trans-identifying) woman ...

[Niamh.]

Maybe they should have asked a (non trans-identifying) woman ...

That definition isn't allowed either though :fist:

[Alf]

A woman is somebody who plays bingo, drinks gin and eats rivita's

[user104658]

The problem is that you can't without either using baseline biological facts, OR presentation/personality stereotypes that border on (or simply stray right into) being offensive. So what you'll get if you ask people who are neck-deep in the dogma to do it is 1) frustration and outrage and 2) attempts at character assassination.

[Cherie]

He made a great point about digging up bones in future, it’s going to be a nightmare to identity whether they are he/she or they

[Crimson Dynamo]

It's the direct result of social media and Confirmation bias

[Niamh.]

It's the direct result of social media and Confirmation bias

It's really a main stream media issue right now. If you read all the comments under the youtube video of the Dr Phil Show where this clip came from, I would say of all the 19k+ comments you will struggle to find someone who disagrees with Matt Walsh on this but listening to the show you'd get the impression that he's the one with the "out there" opinions.

[Alf]

Parents should take more of an interest and have more of a say in what their children are being taught in schools and who the people are who are teaching them.

[Crimson Dynamo]

It's really a main stream media issue right now. If you read all the comments under the youtube video of the Dr Phil Show where this clip came from, I would say of all the 19k+ comments you will struggle to find someone who disagrees with Matt Walsh on this but listening to the show you'd get the impression that he's the one with the "out there" opinions.

No I mean that social media allows you to take a skewed viewpoint and create a whole network of people who share it and then all day long interact with this; mining down the view and arguments for and opposing anyone against it until its literally brainwashed you.

[Oliver_W]

That definition isn't allowed either though :fist:

Thing is, that Ethan was clearly a biological woman.

Instead of only asking what a woman is, why not ask what one isn't, and why Ethan thinks she "isn't" a woman...

[Alf]

A woman is an adult female.

What's a female?

Of or denoting the sex that can bear offspring or produce eggs, distinguished biologically by the production of gametes (ova) which can be fertilized by male gametes

[Alf]

2xsqmX9xsWE

[Crimson Dynamo]

"you reduce women down to a costume"


#endgame

[UserSince2005]

Women are so threatened by other women :joker:

[Niamh.]

Women are so threatened by other women :joker:You realise it was a man who said that I presume :idc:

[Crimson Dynamo]

Women are so threatened by other women :joker:

men continue to be threatened by women is i think what you mean

[Mystic Mock]

A woman is someone that looks like Rihanna.:hehe:

If this post ever hit Twitter I'm probably cancelled within a second.:joker:

You gotta love Twitter though with how self-righteous they are, yet they bully people on and off the site that they deem to be "bad" people, you gotta love the irony, especially in the J.K Rowling case where I personally have mixed feelings on her opinions of Trans women, but the abuse that some of these "good" people have given her don't come across as very noble to me for some reason.

[Mystic Mock]

This is why the Labour Party UK
are confused

This goes for both parties sadly.

[Niamh.]

A woman is someone that looks like Rihanna.:hehe:



If this post ever hit Twitter I'm probably cancelled within a second.:joker:



You gotta love Twitter though with how self-righteous they are, yet they bully people on and off the site that they deem to be "bad" people, you gotta love the irony, especially in the J.K Rowling case where I personally have mixed feelings on her opinions of Trans women, but the abuse that some of these "good" people have given her don't come across as very noble to me for some reason.Which parts of what JK Rowling said do you not agree with can I ask? Just out of curiosity

[Mystic Mock]

Which parts of what JK Rowling said do you not agree with can I ask? Just out of curiosity

Well didn't she like some anti-trans group or am I mixing that up with someone else?

The main point I agree with her on and I'm saying this with no intention to offend anyone, but I personally am not comfortable with Trans women who have high testosterone levels beating the **** out of Cis women in Boxing matches, fair enough if people see me as Transphobic for that opinion, but I don't feel comfortable with it.

No offence to Scarlett who I see as a good friend on here, but it just doesn't make me feel comfortable personally, I understand though that I'm just one person so who cares.:laugh:

[Niamh.]

Well didn't she like some anti-trans group or am I mixing that up with someone else?



The main point I agree with her on and I'm saying this with no intention to offend anyone, but I personally am not comfortable with Trans women who have high testosterone levels beating the **** out of Cis women in Boxing matches, fair enough if people see me as Transphobic for that opinion, but I don't feel comfortable with it.



No offence to Scarlett who I see as a good friend on here, but it just doesn't make me feel comfortable personally, I understand though that I'm just one person so who cares.[emoji23]I'm not sure what "anti-trans" group you mean but you did say her opinions so I wondered what she had said that you disagree with?

[Mitchell]

To me, it’s exactly the same as who a man is, someone who identifies in that way.

[Niamh.]

To me, it’s exactly the same as who a man is, someone who identifies in that way.In what way?

[thesheriff443]

Every answer is correct based on a person’s belief

If you believe something to be true then for you it is the correct answer even though it can be proven to be wrong
But even when the answer can be proven to wrong it’s only wrong because you believe your answer to be right

[glib]

Every answer is correct based on a person’s belief

If you believe something to be true then for you it is the correct answer even though it can be proven to be wrong
But even when the answer can be proven to wrong it’s only wrong because you believe your answer to be right

You are wrong

[thesheriff443]

You are wrong

Only because you believe you to be right

Let’s go back to the beginning before words existed
What if the words we use are wrong

[Mitchell]

In what way?

If they identify as female and that’s how they feel most comfortable, then that’s good for me, same as if they identify as male, or non binary.

[glib]

If they identify as female and that’s how they feel most comfortable, then that’s good for me, same as if they identify as male, or non binary.

So if I identify as female tomorrow , then commit crime, does that give me privilege to go to a woman’s prison , because I identify as a woman, and therefore I am a woman?

Just like the 60 year old pedo a few weeks ago did…

[Mitchell]

So if I identify as female tomorrow , then commit crime, does that give me privilege to go to a woman’s prison , because I identify as a woman, and therefore I am a woman?

Just like the 60 year old pedo a few weeks ago did…

I don’t particularly know much about the judiciary system, so don’t feel qualified to answer that, I do know that it’s a complex issue, and one that I certainly wouldn’t be able to resolve.

[arista]

This goes for both parties sadly.

No

Kier Strarmer backs Women that are still
men.


He is Bonkers


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-58698406

[Mystic Mock]

I'm not sure what "anti-trans" group you mean but you did say her opinions so I wondered what she had said that you disagree with?

I thought she had a link to a website that sold anti-Trans T-shirts or something like that.

And didn't she also say that "real women menstrate" which biologically is obviously true, but I can definitely understand why Trans-women might get offended at that comment.

But on the other hand, I do also understand some of her arguments, I think personally that we need a third school of certain Sports where Trans Women and Cis Women that volunteer to take part can take part, and the Cis Women that feel uncomfortable with competing against Trans Women get to take part in the Cis Women competition.

And I'd consider maybe adding the mix Cis/Trans Women as a third Bathroom option for Trans Women to use obviously, but any Cis Women that don't mind sharing a Bathroom with Trans Women can also use the facility as well if they wish.

Because let's be brutally honest here people, J.K Rowling isn't the only person in the Cis Woman community to feel uncomfortable about these topics, and it does need to be addressed without people threatening her on Twitter.

[Mystic Mock]

I don’t particularly know much about the judiciary system, so don’t feel qualified to answer that, I do know that it’s a complex issue, and one that I certainly wouldn’t be able to resolve.

Oh this whole thing is a minefield, it's why I normally try to stay away from conflict on this topic as understandably two groups that have only recently in Human history been granted equality both have their rights put at risk, and I'm not apart of either group so my opinions on this topic are probably way off base as to what should happen.

It's why I personally hope that eventually Boris can come up with a solution to this problem in this country, but like you I have no real idea how to resolve the problem.

[Mystic Mock]

No

Kier Strarmer backs Women that are still
men.


He is Bonkers


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-58698406

What's wrong with Trans Women in your eyes Arista? To me in most areas they are perfectly fine, and I'm guessing that it's probably similar for Keir Starmer?:shrug:

[Mitchell]

Oh this whole thing is a minefield, it's why I normally try to stay away from conflict on this topic as understandably two groups that have only recently in Human history been granted equality both have their rights put at risk, and I'm not apart of either group so my opinions on this topic are probably way off base as to what should happen.

It's why I personally hope that eventually Boris can come up with a solution to this problem in this country, but like you I have no real idea how to resolve the problem.

As a cis male, I have absolutely no issue sharing a bathroom or a changing room with trans men, obviously if they’re then committing crimes against other people, that’s a completely different issue, but I feel like everyone deserves to be comfortable and safe, regardless of their gender identity.

With your last point, I’d hope that someone with actual respect for cis women and trans people would find a solution, rather than a notorious bigot.

[Jordan.]

So if I identify as female tomorrow , then commit crime, does that give me privilege to go to a woman’s prison , because I identify as a woman, and therefore I am a woman?

Just like the 60 year old pedo a few weeks ago did…

For every one person going lengths to find an exploit to abuse women there are thousands that use no excuse. Of course the former makes for the best clickbaity articles though.

[Mystic Mock]

As a cis male, I have absolutely no issue sharing a bathroom or a changing room with trans men, obviously if they’re then committing crimes against other people, that’s a completely different issue, but I feel like everyone deserves to be comfortable and safe, regardless of their gender identity.

With your last point, I’d hope that someone with actual respect for cis women and trans people would find a solution, rather than a notorious bigot.

I agree with your first point from my perspective anyway.

And I agree with you on your last point too, it's just at the moment we've got to hope that Boris can show a shred of decency to both groups.

[arista]

What's wrong with Trans Women in your eyes Arista? To me in most areas they are perfectly fine, and I'm guessing that it's probably similar for Keir Starmer?:shrug:


Nothing wrong with them


But a Political Group
have messed it all up.


Starmer & Labour MP's are alone with his views
trying to get votes


You made an error
Both parties are not alike on this topic

[Mystic Mock]

Nothing wrong with them


But a Political Group
have messed it all up.


Starmer & Labour MP's are alone with his views
trying to get votes


You made an error
Both parties are not alike on this topic

I meant that both parties are crap in general.

I think I misunderstood your original post, sorry about that.:blush:

[arista]

I meant that both parties are crap in general.

I think I misunderstood your original post, sorry about that.:blush:


OK

[user104658]

If they identify as female and that’s how they feel most comfortable, then that’s good for me, same as if they identify as male, or non binary.

The question being asked though is what does that mean. What does it mean to "feel like (identify as) a woman", or a man? Without resorting to stereotypes or (frankly, massively problematic) historical social norms, what does identifying as a woman mean?

I have my own thoughts on it, and there is some debate and nuance to it, for those who are willing to actually delve into the philosophy of gender (ironically, most trans and non-binary people seem not to be willing to :think: ) however to be completely blunt, the vast majority of trans women I see are massively embroiled in roleplaying a heavily stereotyped version of what they believe a woman is/does/looks like. Not all, mind, but the vast majority - or at least the vast majority of those who are very visible, so maybe there's something else in that.

And yes, it was a conscious choice there to say "trans women" and not "trans people" because the psychosocial reasons for Female to Male transition are for the mostpart completely different and rooted in something else entirely. VERY SADLY the reasons that young females might find themselves wishing away their gender are really ****ing obvious.

As for non-binary? My honest opinion? These are just people who don't feel firmly rooted in either gender stereotype but don't have the wisdom or introspective ability to realise that that is true of everyone who hasn't been sucked in by the social myth of gender norms. Do I "feel like a man"? No! What does that mean?? Am I a blokey bloke? No! I don't want to be! Am I non-binary? By the definition that I see other people put on it? Apparently yes. So is my wife :think:. And yet no I'm male, and a man, and there's no reason to see it any other way, and it doesn't mean I have to "do man stuff" and never has.

This applies to a huge proportion of the population. I often get the impression that the gender-obsessed think it doesn't, and that "most cis men" are archetypal men and "most cis women" are archetypal women.

But then, that's because most non-binary people are in their teens and early 20's and (as a statistical fact) a small proportion become trans, the VAST majority revert to the gender correlating to their natal sex, and only an absolutely tiny number remain non-binary into full adulthood. Going to be totally blunt here: most of those people are extremely messy adults. The argument will be that "some sort of mistreatment because of their nonbinaryness caused them other mental health problems". Which is absolute horse****. Absolutely no evidence of this at all.

But yeah to be blunt/short most people move away from the non-binary lable when they grow up enough to develop a nuanced understanding of gender roles and realise that being a female who plays football and has short hair but also likes to wear dresses and party doesn't make them "somewhere between male and female".


ANYWAY, I'm ranting on a bit.

Honestly I think you're avoiding the question of "what does feeling like a woman/man/non-binary actually mean" because you probably know you can't do it without spouting stereotypes and you're of the opinion that it's better to just "accept whatever people want to say about themselves without question because that's kind and comfortable for everyone". A cornerstone of hyperindividualism.

[user104658]

For the record, by the way;

I don't think men and women are 100% the same - and I do believe that genuine trans genderism / gender dysphoria is very real.

However it is my experience that those people are generally either quietly getting on with their lives as they please, or are willing to actually talk about the issues and recognise the need for open dialogue.

And then... ohhh, and then... [trigger warning] ... there is a not small number of fetishists, narcissists and frankly mentally unwell people who are engaging in fantasy - often overtly sexualised fantasy - and spinning entire bizarre narratives, and demanding damaging social change, without debare, without evidence, and hiding behind genuine trans people and genuine gender dysphoria in order to quite simply do whatever the **** they want without scrutiny. And then you have people so firmly committed to the hyperindividualism zeitgeist that they CAN NOT and WILL NOT accept valid criticism, to the extent that you can present them with footage of clearly mentally ill individuals, and examples of predatory behaviour, and they will try to find a way to say "it's fine". It's a ****ing train wreck.

[Oliver_W]

Re the prison thing ...

Most men (including transwomen) who are in jail are there for violent or sexual crimes, while most women in jail are largely victims of circumstance, and they certainly don't need to be locked up with males.

[Crimson Dynamo]

if its semantics and what you belive id imagine if you said your neighbour said they beleived that they owned your car and would like the keys and said that they dont recognise your ownership

you would say f off?

[user104658]

The zeitgeist of it all has heavy roots in post-structuralism but like... baby-brain understanding of post-structuralism (which even at it's most solid has plenty of scope for critique).

The irony of it being post-structuralist is that it is anchored in an obsessive need for defining and labelling. That's literally what all of it is about. In fact for those who buy into the current dogma there seems to be some sort of untethered existential turmoil that can only be calmed BY excessive labelling, and by rejecting anything that strays from or questions those labels or mantras... which doesn't gel with post-structuralist logic at all.

tl;dr much of it is (literally) inherently illogical but there's an almost mocking defiantly flippant stock-retort that is, essentially, "it doesn't matter if it's illogical you just have to accept it and everything will be fine".

Some homework if anyone is up for it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-structuralism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postmodernism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypermodernity

I'm suspecting not :joker:

[user104658]

For a quick example, the entire concept of the gender spectrum relies in the postmodernist concept of there being no objective reality, no objective fact, only social constructs and perceptions of reality that are equally valid in their "realness".

This is what allows for gender not to match natal sex. It underpins the whole thing. The concept of there being no way to objectively make statements that hold true for all.

...

The same people defined by/completely buying into this philosophical concept will then - completely devoid of irony - hit you with;

"Trans women ARE women - say it with me! No debate!"

:facepalm:

Honestly I personally believe that these things being thrown around by people, mostly parrotted with absolutely no identifiable progression of thought, and completely contradicting entire lynchpin philosophical concepts of their own beliefs in order to make another point 2 minutes later, is EXACTLY what leads to the frustration/anxiety/anger/panic that drives "cancel culture" and the idea that debate or diversion from the established rhetoric is "literally murder". The debate stage has legs made of uncooked spaghetti tied together with thread. So yes there are going to be casualties. Mental breakdown occurs when a person can no longer reconcile their internal reality with the information being presented to them. Worth some thought for those who find the debate scary I think.

[Crimson Dynamo]

2 great posts TS

[thesheriff443]

if its semantics and what you belive id imagine if you said your neighbour said they beleived that they owned your car and would like the keys and said that they dont recognise your ownership

you would say f off?

Women believe they own half of your stuff and when you get a divorce you find out it’s true:joker:

[user104658]

Women believe they own half of your stuff and when you get a divorce you find out it’s true :joker:

To be fair this is just because (thanks to patriarchy) men tend to be the higher earners.

My wife's career is absolutely flying and she's likely to be fairly high-income well within the decade... ... ... if she ever decides to kick me to the kerb you can bet your arse I'm taking half of her stuff on the way out the door :joker:.

[thesheriff443]

To be fair this is just because (thanks to patriarchy) men tend to be the higher earners.

My wife's career is absolutely flying and she's likely to be fairly high-income well within the decade... ... ... if she ever decides to kick me to the kerb you can bet your arse I'm taking half of her stuff on the way out the door :joker:.

All you will end up with is a car full of old shoes and some half empty perfume bottles.

[Niamh.]

Every answer is correct based on a person’s belief

If you believe something to be true then for you it is the correct answer even though it can be proven to be wrong
But even when the answer can be proven to wrong it’s only wrong because you believe your answer to be right

No every answer is not correct when you're asking for an actual definition of a word, there is the correct definition

Woman - Adult Human Female

and there is the definition that isn't actually a definition at all

Woman - A person who identifies as a woman

That doesn't tell you what a woman is? That's like say the definition of a cat is something that looks like a cat. You're still none the wiser of what a cat actually is.

I don’t particularly know much about the judiciary system, so don’t feel qualified to answer that, I do know that it’s a complex issue, and one that I certainly wouldn’t be able to resolve.

It isn't a complex issue at all, identify however you want, wear what you want to wear but biological sex isn't up for debate and it matters and is a protected characteristic. Gender replacing sex is going to disadvantage women, saying a woman is whoever says they are woman makes the word meaningless and will fail to protect biological women and girls who need that word to describe and protect ourselves.

I thought she had a link to a website that sold anti-Trans T-shirts or something like that.

And didn't she also say that "real women menstrate" which biologically is obviously true, but I can definitely understand why Trans-women might get offended at that comment.

But on the other hand, I do also understand some of her arguments, I think personally that we need a third school of certain Sports where Trans Women and Cis Women that volunteer to take part can take part, and the Cis Women that feel uncomfortable with competing against Trans Women get to take part in the Cis Women competition.

And I'd consider maybe adding the mix Cis/Trans Women as a third Bathroom option for Trans Women to use obviously, but any Cis Women that don't mind sharing a Bathroom with Trans Women can also use the facility as well if they wish.

Because let's be brutally honest here people, J.K Rowling isn't the only person in the Cis Woman community to feel uncomfortable about these topics, and it does need to be addressed without people threatening her on Twitter.

I know she wore a T-Shirt with a slogan on it saying "This Witch won't burn" or something similar which i thought was quite clever really considering she created Harry potter plus a throw back to women being vilified as TERFs witches.

She didn't say "Real women Menstruate" She objected to women being referred to as "People who menstruate" instead of as women. Which as a woman I find pretty dehumanising and offensive (seems like only some people are allowed to dictate how they are and are not referred to though.) I will also add, it is ALWAYS women who are being referred to in these derogatory ways too, our medical literature changes us from women to "People with a cervix" while it's still just "men" who get Prostate cancer, not "Prostate havers"

As a cis male, I have absolutely no issue sharing a bathroom or a changing room with trans men, obviously if they’re then committing crimes against other people, that’s a completely different issue, but I feel like everyone deserves to be comfortable and safe, regardless of their gender identity.

With your last point, I’d hope that someone with actual respect for cis women and trans people would find a solution, rather than a notorious bigot.

With all due respect Mitchell as a man you can be as comfortable as you like with transmen or women using the male facilities but that is no real comparison to women having to share with biological men and you know that. Women are not a Physical or sexual threat to men in anywhere near the same way as men are to women

For every one person going lengths to find an exploit to abuse women there are thousands that use no excuse. Of course the former makes for the best clickbaity articles though.

Absolutely true, however just because men will find ways to abuse women in other ways doesn't mean you make it easier for them by throwing away safe guarding because **** it it's going to happen anyway, right?

[Liam-]

I mean, let’s be perfectly honest here, is there any need for a debate really? People who are adamantly against the idea of trans people being the same as them, for whatever reason, are not going to change their minds for anything, that’s perfectly clear and the only time they’ll ever say a trans person is ‘honest’ or ‘balanced’ in the ‘debate’ is if they agree with them.

For me personally, the whole anti-trans movement really just reflects the age old story of the bullied kid, becoming a bully once they start to fit in, women have obviously been historically victimised throughout the ages, that’s not something that can be argued, but I think now a lot of the women who are a part of this hate campaign against the trans community, are doing it because they enjoy the fact that there’s a demographic of people that they can now feel like they have a semblance of power over, do I think there are some people with actual concerns? Yes, but at this point, they’ve attached their flags to the wrong people at the wrong time and their arguments are being drowned out by the plainly hateful, bigoted people they’ve aligned themselves with, unfortunately.

[bots]

i'm not anti trans, i'm just protective of biological womens rights. I'm certainly not going to change that stance, that's for sure

[Oliver_W]

Yes, but at this point, they’ve attached their flags to the wrong people at the wrong time and their arguments are being drowned out by the plainly hateful, bigoted people they’ve aligned themselves with, unfortunately.
Who should they be rallying against, if not the people trying to take away their woman-only spaces?

As a cis male, I have absolutely no issue sharing a bathroom or a changing room with trans men, obviously if they’re then committing crimes against other people, that’s a completely different issue, but I feel like everyone deserves to be comfortable and safe, regardless of their gender identity.
Thing is, men are the (perceived) danger against woman. A transman entering men's spaces isn't the same as a transwoman entering women's spaces.

[Niamh.]

I mean, let’s be perfectly honest here, is there any need for a debate really? People who are adamantly against the idea of trans people being the same as them, for whatever reason, are not going to change their minds for anything, that’s perfectly clear and the only time they’ll ever say a trans person is ‘honest’ or ‘balanced’ in the ‘debate’ is if they agree with them.

For me personally, the whole anti-trans movement really just reflects the age old story of the bullied kid, becoming a bully once they start to fit in, women have obviously been historically victimised throughout the ages, that’s not something that can be argued, but I think now a lot of the women who are a part of this hate campaign against the trans community, are doing it because they enjoy the fact that there’s a demographic of people that they can now feel like they have a semblance of power over, do I think there are some people with actual concerns? Yes, but at this point, they’ve attached their flags to the wrong people at the wrong time and their arguments are being drowned out by the plainly hateful, bigoted people they’ve aligned themselves with, unfortunately.

Yes there is absolutely a need for debate.

It isn't an "anti-trans" movement it's a women's rights movement. Are you really claiming that women, who have pretty much always been the strongest allies to the LGB community and included the "T" in that too up until the demands and complete change of our language has been forced upon us in recent years, have suddenly just turned into full on evil bullies for no apparent reason? Are you really saying the only thing that was stopping women from being bullying assholes before is that we had no one weaker than us?

[Liam-]

Yes there's is absolutely a need for debate.

It isn't an "anti-trans" movement it's a women's rights movement. Are you really claiming that women, who have pretty much always been the strongest allies to the LGB community and included the "T" in that too up until the demands and complete change of our language has been forced upon us in recent years, have suddenly just turned into full on evil bullies for no apparent reason? Are you really saying the only thing that was stopping women from being bullying assholes before is that we had no one weaker than us?

I think a lot of women have a chip on their shoulder from historical oppression, which is understandable, but they’re taking that chip and using it as an excuse to seize a moment where they can feel like they now have a little bit of power over people like they’ve never had before, yes, is that all women? Obviously not, but those people tend to be the loudest of the anti-trans movement.

It’s the same as a lot of gay men being misogynistic, because nothing makes insecure people feel better about themselves than being a part of something that brings other people down.

[Niamh.]

And to add, who the **** is actually being "bullied" here? It's women who are the ones losing their jobs, being silenced on Social media from being pushed out (or attempted to be pushed out) of their own creations, just for speaking up about matters that absolutely concern us, our safety, fairness and our right to privacy. You have some nerve saying "the age old story" it is the age old story, the age old story of women being pushed around by men and told to shut up when we object

[Niamh.]

I think a lot of women have a chip on their shoulder from historical oppression, which is understandable, but they’re taking that chip and using it as an excuse to seize a moment where they can feel like they now have a little bit of power over people like they’ve never had before, yes, is that all women? Obviously not, but those people tend to be the loudest of the anti-trans movement.

It’s the same as a lot of gay men being misogynistic, because nothing makes insecure people feel better about themselves than being a part of something that brings other people down.

A chip on our shoulder, interesting phrase to use.

I can't understand how you can look at the issues that are raised -

fairness and safety in sport

Safety from predators who would use this (and have used this) as a way to get access to vulnerable women or women in vulnerable positions such as Prisons, Changing rooms, Bathrooms, Spas etc

and still say that it's just women abusing some new found power we have (disagree completely with this assessment btw) and not based on genuine and very real issues

[Liam-]

A chip on our shoulder, interesting phrase to use.

I can't understand how you can look at the issues that are raised -

fairness and safety in sport

Safety from predators who would use this (and have used this) as a way to get access to vulnerable women or women in vulnerable positions such as Prisons, Changing rooms, Bathrooms, Spas etc

and still say that it's just women abusing some new found power we have (disagree completely with this assessment btw) and not based on genuine and very real issues

If you’re gonna disagree with things I’ve said, you should at least understand the things I’ve said first.

I did say that some people may have genuine concerns, that’s not a question, but those concerns are now deeply embedded within an anti-trans movement that in my view, is majorly based in hatred and bigotry, those concerns are being used by bigots as a stick to beat down an entire demographic of people, just for being who they are and if it was any other demographic, it would definitely not be allowed to happen..

And also to your point of, ‘who’s being bullied’ people are losing jobs or support or whatever, violent crimes against trans people have quadrupled over the past couple of years, people are being physically attacked and often times killed, for who they are, so please, save some of your empathy for the people who are actually having harm done to them over this shall we.

[user104658]

Are disingenuous hateful people quick to pick up a banner if they think they can use it as an excuse to say what they like? Yes, absolutely... I've seen enough gammon suddenly and bewildering declare themselves trans allies in order to attack women online to know that's the case. Those men do not give a stuff about trans people. They've found a loophole that allows them (they think) to be misogynistic so long as they "aim it at a TERF".

But yes it would be false to say that doesn't happen in any cause.

On the flipside though; are people going to deny that valid, genuine, open requests for discussion are disingenuous BRANDED "hatefulness" and "bullying", using the presence of a small number of hateful people to do so?

I'm not really sure how to address the "is there a need for a debate" question. On Tibb? In general? In general, the answer is an obvious and resounding "yes of course there is" and I don't even know how to start explaining why to someone who doesn't find that obvious. There is always need. Dogma is no one's friend.

On Tibb? Hmmm is there a "need", probably not, because there isn't a "need" for any debate (or any post at all) on Tibb. No one has ever been here because they needed to be. It's not really the point. So whether there's a need or not, it's going to happen anyway. Engagement is the choice.

[Niamh.]

If you’re gonna disagree with things I’ve said, you should at least understand the things I’ve said first.

I did say that some people may have genuine concerns, that’s not a question, but those concerns are now deeply embedded within an anti-trans movement that in my view, is majorly based in hatred and bigotry, those concerns are being used by bigots as a stick to beat down an entire demographic of people, just for being who they are and if it was any other demographic, it would definitely not be allowed to happen..

And also to your point of, ‘who’s being bullied’ people are losing jobs or support or whatever, violent crimes against trans people have quadrupled over the past couple of years, people are being physically attacked and often times killed, for who they are, so please, save some of your empathy for the people who are actually having harm done to them over this shall we.

I see people make these claims all the time but where are all the stories of these attacks happening? When was the last time a transperson was murdered in the UK for example or in Ireland? I can give you 2 very recent cases of women being attacked and murdered by men though in both countries.

[user104658]

I did say that some people may have genuine concerns, that’s not a question, but those concerns are now deeply embedded within an anti-trans movement that in my view, is majorly based in hatred and bigotry, those concerns are being used by bigots as a stick to beat down an entire demographic of people, just for being who they are and if it was any other demographic, it would definitely not be allowed to happen.

Honestly I think you're looking at this backwards and if you were to really dig into it, you'd find that what were in the vast majority people looking to air and discuss simple concerns and have them taken seriously were met with a wave of anger, resentment and refusal to engage and that has created a combative environment all round with people being driven to the more extreme fringes over time. Is that a good thing? Absolutely not but (unfortunately as we all know too well by now) pack mentality and tribalism is part of human nature. It's a huge part of LGBTQ as well. Are there obvious and very understandable reasons for that? Yes of course there are. But it would be a lie to say its not a thing.

The "Stonewall method" created an environment where proper reasoned debate of this issue - even in an academic setting - is nearly impossible and at absolute best a massive risk.

So with that off the table, yeah... You don't get silence, you get volleys of anger. Inevitability. It was a bad idea to shut down and vilify reasonable debate but that's what happened :shrug:.

[Liam-]

I see people make these claims all the time but where are all the stories of these attacks happening? When was the last time a transperson was murdered in the UK for example or in Ireland? I can give you 2 very recent cases of women being attacked and murdered by men though in both countries.

So you need to see individual cases slapped over the media, to believe that targeted hate crimes against the trans community have rocketed?

I mean, if you want to go for the, i didn’t see it, it didn’t happen defence then you crack on I suppose

[Jordan.]

I see people make these claims all the time but where are all the stories of these attacks happening? When was the last time a transperson was murdered in the UK for example or in Ireland? I can give you 2 very recent cases of women being attacked and murdered by men though in both countries.

The same could be said about women being attacked or abused by transwomen? Whilst of course it does happen it is rare and isolated cases. It's not the widespread issue the disproportionate amount of outrage would have you to believe. There is more chance of a woman being abused by another woman than any transperson.

[Niamh.]

So you need to see individual cases slapped over the media, to believe that targeted hate crimes against the trans community have rocketed?

I mean, if you want to go for the, i didn’t see it, it didn’t happen defence then you crack on I suppose

Well if it's been used in an argument to prove that it's not actually women who are being bullied in this debate it's transpeople then yeah I'd like to see some evidence of that. If it truly has rocketed as you say where are all the news stories? The figures backing that up?

I asked you a simple question, back up this pretty big claim you made and instead of doing that (which should be an easy thing to show) You tried to make me feel bad for daring to ask

[Niamh.]

The same could be said about women being attacked or abused by transwomen? Whilst of course it does happen it is rare and isolated cases. It's not the widespread issue the disproportionate amount of outrage would have you to believe. There is more chance of a woman being abused by another woman than any transperson.

I could find you evidence of that happening.

If you give me a few minutes I'll be happy to fish out some stories :shrug:

"There is more chance of a woman being abused by another woman than any transperson."

I suppose there is as there are a lot more women than transwomen in the world, so by law of averages yeah I would imagine that's correct however transwomen are biologically male and so pose a much greater threat to woman than another woman would.

[Liam-]

Well if it's been used in an argument to prove that it's not actually women who are being bullied in this debate it's transpeople then yeah I'd like to see some evidence of that. If it truly has rocketed as you say where are all the news stories? The figures backing that up?

I asked you a simple question, back up this pretty big claim you made and instead of doing that (which should be an easy thing to show) You tried to make me feel bad for daring to ask

There was a report done by the bbc in 2020 based on government findings on the those sharp rise in anti-trans hate crimes.

But tbh, I don’t think there’s much point in all of this, because you seem very determined to not accept anything that goes against your views on tans people or women being the ultimate societal victims

[Niamh.]

There was a report done by the bbc in 2020 based on government findings on the those sharp rise in anti-trans hate crimes.

But tbh, I don’t think there’s much point in all of this, because you seem very determined to not accept anything that goes against your views on tans people or women being the ultimate societal victims

I'd be absolutely interested in reading that report. Do you have a link?

Out of curiosity, if you can remember from reading that report were those transpeople being attacked by women?

[Niamh.]

The same could be said about women being attacked or abused by transwomen? Whilst of course it does happen it is rare and isolated cases. It's not the widespread issue the disproportionate amount of outrage would have you to believe. There is more chance of a woman being abused by another woman than any transperson.

Sorry I just wanted to come back to this post again because what i should have added was, it's not really about transwomen being dangerous to women per se, the issue is MEN are dangerous to women, we know this. And the issue is not being able to define what a woman is, rendering the word meaningless and therefore opening the doors to places where women are vulnerable to anyone and everyone - as apparently a woman is just someone who says they are a women

[Cherie]

Sorry I just wanted to come back to this post again because what i should have added was, it's not really about transwomen being dangerous to women per se, the issue is MEN are dangerous to women, we know this. And the issue is not being able to define what a woman is, rendering the word meaningless and therefore opening the doors to places where women are vulnerable to anyone and everyone - as apparently a woman is just someone who says they are a women

I think most people get this no? Although I would qualify that with a ‘‘some men’..

[Niamh.]

I think most people get this no? Although I would qualify that with a ‘‘some men’..

I don't even think it needs the qualifier, we know "not all men are like that", it doesn't need pointing out every time though imo! :fist:

[user104658]

Sorry I just wanted to come back to this post again because what i should have added was, it's not really about transwomen being dangerous to women per se, the issue is MEN are dangerous to women, we know this. And the issue is not being able to define what a woman is, rendering the word meaningless and therefore opening the doors to places where women are vulnerable to anyone and everyone - as apparently a woman is just someone who says they are a womenThis will be consistently ignored because its impossible to defend... I see people constantly putting on blinkers to the idea that it's not trans women that are the threat to women's spaces, but the concept of SELF-ID and predatory men pretending to be trans women in order to access women's spaces.

The arguments are that "no predatory man would actually bother to do that" (they can, have, will, and have gone to far greater lengths) and/or "Well that's not happened here yet" but ignoring that A) it's being campaigned for (heavily) and that one of the main things people are attacked for is campaigning against specifically that (it is branded transphobic).

Issues such as whether a trans woman should be in a female prison should be assessed PURELY on a case-by-case basis. It's the only sensible option.

[Beso]

Sorry I just wanted to come back to this post again because what i should have added was, it's not really about transwomen being dangerous to women per se, the issue is MEN are dangerous to women, we know this. And the issue is not being able to define what a woman is, rendering the word meaningless and therefore opening the doors to places where women are vulnerable to anyone and everyone - as apparently a woman is just someone who says they are a women

Men are also dangerous to children, and will also bend the system to abuse them..

We are not allowed to discuss this on tibb though, even though there is no difference to what you are claiming can happen regarding this subject.

[Niamh.]

This will be consistently ignored because its impossible to defend... I see people constantly putting on blinkers to the idea that it's not trans women that are the threat to women's spaces, but the concept of SELF-ID and predatory men pretending to be trans women in order to access women's spaces.

The arguments are that "no predatory man would actually bother to do that" (they can, have, will, and have gone to far greater lengths) and/or "Well that's not happened here yet" but ignoring that A) it's being campaigned for (heavily) and that one of the main things people are attacked for is campaigning against specifically that (it is branded transphobic).

Issues such as whether a trans woman should be in a female prison should be assessed PURELY on a case-by-case basis. It's the only sensible option.

All you have to do is look at what happened within the Catholic Church to see what lengths an abuser will go to get access to potential victims and compared to that this is much easier, all you have to do is SAY "I'm a woman"

[Niamh.]

Men are also dangerous to children, and will also bend the system to abuse them..

We are not allowed to discuss this on tibb though, even though there is no difference to what you are claiming can happen regarding this subject.

Not quite sure what you're alluding to here

[user104658]

I think most people get this no? Although I would qualify that with a ‘‘some men’..I find that a bit pandery, it's implied anyway and I personally don't understand why any man who knows he isn't a danger to women needs to have that pointed out. It's part of the whole problem really; outraged cries of "by pointing out any risks you tar all of [group] with the same brush!!". It just isn't true.

[user104658]

Men are also dangerous to children, and will also bend the system to abuse them..



We are not allowed to discuss this on tibb though, even though there is no difference to what you are claiming can happen regarding this subject.They are indeed and that's why you would never see an adult of any description being put into a juvenile prison with kids nor would anyone ever think that was a good idea... And also adults need disclosure documents and criminal records checks to work with children at all. This is something that's clearly recognised.

[Niamh.]

They are indeed and that's why you would never see an adult of any description being put into a juvenile prison with kids nor would anyone ever think that was a good idea... And also adults need disclosure documents and criminal records checks to work with children at all. This is something that's clearly recognised.

Absolutely.

[Beso]

They are indeed and that's why you would never see an adult of any description being put into a juvenile prison with kids nor would anyone ever think that was a good idea... And also adults need disclosure documents and criminal records checks to work with children at all. This is something that's clearly recognised.

Dont matter.

[Cherie]

I find that a bit pandery, it's implied anyway and I personally don't understand why any man who knows he isn't a danger to women needs to have that pointed out. It's part of the whole problem really; outraged cries of "by pointing out any risks you tar all of [group] with the same brush!!". It just isn't true.

As a mother of two sons I feel happy to point that out, pandery or not

[user104658]

As a mother of two sons I feel happy to point that out, pandery or notDefensiveness isn't a trait I'd be particularly keen to encourage but each to their own I guess.

[Elliot]

There’s a social and medical context to gender and sex. You would probably have to disclose your biological sex to your hospital so they can give you the relevant and most suited treatment. On the other hand, if you were a bartender and someone like, let’s say Kim Petras, walked into your bar, you would probably use she her.

[glib]

There’s a social and medical context to gender and sex. You would probably have to disclose your biological sex to your hospital so they can give you the relevant and most suited treatment. On the other hand, if you were a bartender and someone like, let’s say Kim Petras, walked into your bar, you would probably use she her.

Wouldn’t have a clue who she was if i did see her

[Oliver_W]

There’s a social and medical context to gender and sex. You would probably have to disclose your biological sex to your hospital so they can give you the relevant and most suited treatment. On the other hand, if you were a bartender and someone like, let’s say Kim Petras, walked into your bar, you would probably use she her.

Well yeah, in a day to day context of course one "should" use preferred pronouns for transpeople. To do otherwise would just be rude, like giving unsolicited opinions about an ugly person's appearance.

But gender identity shouldn't trump sex. When it comes to sports, prisons, and other single sex spaces, gender identity shouldn't come into it.

[Alf]

Well yeah, in a day to day context of course one "should" use preferred pronouns for transpeople. To do otherwise would just be rude, like giving unsolicited opinions about an ugly person's appearance.

But gender identity shouldn't trump sex. When it comes to sports, prisons, and other single sex spaces, gender identity shouldn't come into it.There would be no outcry or outrage or action taken against someone giving an opinion on an ugly person. There is nothing an ugly person could do about it, they just don't have the same privilege as a trans.

[Oliver_W]

There would be no outcry or outrage or action taken against someone giving an opinion on an ugly person. There is nothing an ugly person could do about it, they just don't have the same privilege as a trans.

But there's also nothing a transwoman can do about actually being a man :joker:

[Mystic Mock]

I see people make these claims all the time but where are all the stories of these attacks happening? When was the last time a transperson was murdered in the UK for example or in Ireland? I can give you 2 very recent cases of women being attacked and murdered by men though in both countries.

Tbh I'm impressed that you've only found two cases.:laugh:

[Mystic Mock]

No every answer is not correct when you're asking for an actual definition of a word, there is the correct definition

Woman - Adult Human Female

and there is the definition that isn't actually a definition at all

Woman - A person who identifies as a woman

That doesn't tell you what a woman is? That's like say the definition of a cat is something that looks like a cat. You're still none the wiser of what a cat actually is.



It isn't a complex issue at all, identify however you want, wear what you want to wear but biological sex isn't up for debate and it matters and is a protected characteristic. Gender replacing sex is going to disadvantage women, saying a woman is whoever says they are woman makes the word meaningless and will fail to protect biological women and girls who need that word to describe and protect ourselves.



I know she wore a T-Shirt with a slogan on it saying "This Witch won't burn" or something similar which i thought was quite clever really considering she created Harry potter plus a throw back to women being vilified as TERFs witches.

She didn't say "Real women Menstruate" She objected to women being referred to as "People who menstruate" instead of as women. Which as a woman I find pretty dehumanising and offensive (seems like only some people are allowed to dictate how they are and are not referred to though.) I will also add, it is ALWAYS women who are being referred to in these derogatory ways too, our medical literature changes us from women to "People with a cervix" while it's still just "men" who get Prostate cancer, not "Prostate havers"



With all due respect Mitchell as a man you can be as comfortable as you like with transmen or women using the male facilities but that is no real comparison to women having to share with biological men and you know that. Women are not a Physical or sexual threat to men in anywhere near the same way as men are to women



Absolutely true, however just because men will find ways to abuse women in other ways doesn't mean you make it easier for them by throwing away safe guarding because **** it it's going to happen anyway, right?

Tbf you've made some fair points.

I don't get why Politicians around the world aren't really trying to solve this issue tbh.

[Mystic Mock]

I don't even think it needs the qualifier, we know "not all men are like that", it doesn't need pointing out every time though imo! :fist:

Oh there was this one guy on TikTok or Twitch (I can't remember which one) that claimed that most men like to attack women, he was a special one rather than The Special One.:joker:

I understand that you didn't mean it like that though Niamh.

[Niamh.]

Oh there was this one guy on TikTok or Twitch (I can't remember which one) that claimed that most men like to attack women, he was a special one rather than The Special One.:joker:

I understand that you didn't mean it like that though Niamh.[emoji173]