Most children who think they’re transgender are just going through a ‘phase’ says NHS

[Crimson Dynamo]

did any sane adult think otherwise?

Most children who believe that they are transgender are just going through a
“phase”, the NHS has said, as it warns that doctors should not encourage them
to change their names and pronouns.

NHS England has announced plans for tightening controls on the treatment of
under 18s questioning their gender, including a ban on prescribing puberty
blockers outside of strict clinical trials.

The services, which will replace the controversial Tavistock clinic, will be led by
medical doctors rather than therapists and will consider the impact of other
conditions such as autism and mental health issues.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/10/23/children-who-think-transgender-just-going-phase-says-nhs/

[GoldHeart]

I'm glad they're taking this seriously, a child under 18 should not be messing around with puberty blocker's and other hormonal drugs . Let kids be kids .

A doctor's duty is to have the patients best interest at heart. And when it comes to your physical and psychological health ,this is important.

And yes it most definitely can be a phase , the detransitioning stories out there are heartbreaking.

[Liam-]

A tragic turn of events that’ll lead to even higher self harm and suicide rates for trans youth, I just hope that all the transphobes pushing for things like this can live comfortably knowing they’ll have blood on their hands because of their ignorance

[GoldHeart]

A tragic turn of events that’ll lead to even higher self harm and suicide rates for trans youth, I just hope that all the transphobes pushing for things like this can live comfortably knowing they’ll have blood on their hands because of their ignorance

As usual you ignore all the detransitioning cases out there .

A boy wanting to be a girl who is under 18 still ,needs help & support. You can't just say "oh great let's get you that surgery and puberty blocker's" ..... utter madness :umm2:

Same for a girl wanting to be a boy , again help and support . Surgery and medical treatment should never be taken lightly.

[Liam-]

As usual you ignore all the detransitioning cases out there .

A boy wanting to be a girl who is under 18 still ,needs help & support. You can't just say "oh great let's get you that surgery and puberty blocker's" ..... utter madness :umm2:

Same for a girl wanting to be a boy , again help and support . Surgery and medical treatment should never be taken lightly.

Less than 1% of trans people decide to detransition, but for obvious reasons anti-trans campaigners latch onto these stories because it suits them to ignore the vast majority of trans people who are happy and comfortable.

I don’t know how many times you have to be told, you already have to be 18 before they allow you to have surgery, this belief that under 18’s are just being given surgeries is intellectually dishonest and shows the level of purposeful ignorance involved.

[GoldHeart]

Less than 1% of trans people decide to detransition, but for obvious reasons anti-trans campaigners latch onto these stories because it suits them to ignore the vast majority of trans people who are happy and comfortable.

I don’t know how many times you have to be told, you already have to be 18 before they allow you to have surgery, this belief that under 18’s are just being given surgeries is intellectually dishonest and shows the level of purposeful ignorance involved.

I don't believe it's less than 1% , I've seen quite a few stories appear where they've regretted it .

The fact that the NHS has to bring in strict steps now ... just shows that below 18s were given the treatment or about to be.

I know in America younger trans people are definitely having medication and surgery.

[Liam-]

You can choose not to believe the truth if that’s what you want to do, but just know that you’re seeing these stories because the people behind the anti-trans movement are highlighting those stories to a disproportionate level.

If you’re happy for trans youth to essentially be told that they’re just confused or mentally ill, then I don’t really know what to say to you, but I don’t want to see you say at any point you care about protecting children in these instances because that’s simply not true

[Oliver_W]

With the amount of trans-identified people who have other mental disorders (https://www.spectrumnews.org/news/largest-study-to-date-confirms-overlap-between-autism-and-gender-diversity/), it's good that such things are being considered.

Children and young people who are questioning their "gender" would be better off being given coping strategies to help them come to terms with not being what they "identify" as.

There's no evidence that blockers are safe and reversible, so anything is better than throwing safeguarding to wind.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Less than 1% of trans people decide to detransition, but for obvious reasons anti-trans campaigners latch onto these stories because it suits them to ignore the vast majority of trans people who are happy and comfortable.

I don’t know how many times you have to be told, you already have to be 18 before they allow you to have surgery, this belief that under 18’s are just being given surgeries is intellectually dishonest and shows the level of purposeful ignorance involved.

"trans youth"

chilling and worrying

[GoldHeart]

You can choose not to believe the truth if that’s what you want to do, but just know that you’re seeing these stories because the people behind the anti-trans movement are highlighting those stories to a disproportionate level.

If you’re happy for trans youth to essentially be told that they’re just confused or mentally ill, then I don’t really know what to say to you, but I don’t want to see you say at any point you care about protecting children in these instances because that’s simply not true

How can you say that when there's members of the LGBT community themselves who think it's WRONG for children to be given puberty blockers and called trans ?. I know what you're saying about the right wing having their agenda. But surely there's a middle ground here.

Well you might not like it , but technically gender dysphoria is a mental condition which gets diagnosed by a doctor :shrug:. And i wasn't saying all trans people regret their decision, some have transitioned/lived as the opposite gender from age 16 and they're still happy or content .

And it's not very nice to assume i don't care. I don't know why things like mental illness and conditions in general is still stigmatised. I believe transgender is a very real thing . There's been studies and research, to show how for e.g a boy who has gender dysphoria has similar brain patterns to a female.

But the point i'm making is there's different ways to help and support a child who is experiencing this . I don't think the answer should automatically be "yes ok then now you can be the opposite gender" . When you're under 18 you're still a minor and your parents still pretty much tells you what you can and can't do , your voice and feelings should still be listened to though.

Hasn't there even been cases where teachers will go against parents wishes ? just to please a child? .

[Mystic Mock]

I don't know if I personally like the term "phase" being used for people's feelings about their identity.

And thankfully like Liam has said, people under 18 can't have the surgery anyway, because to me that's a line that should never be crossed.

[Zizu]

I don't know if I personally like the term "phase" being used for people's feelings about their identity.

And thankfully like Liam has said, people under 18 can't have the surgery anyway, because to me that's a line that should never be crossed.


They maybe can’t have surgery but they do apparently get given medications that alter their bodies - these changes are reversible.. although the changes to the brain are permanent !!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Zizu]

I know of one case where two 13 years old girls transitioning to boys started dating each other months afterwards .. dating as boys though .. not girls

That is such a complex relationship


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[GoldHeart]

They maybe can’t have surgery but they do apparently get given medications that alter their bodies - these changes are reversible.. although the changes to the brain are permanent !!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Which is what i was trying to say , but people keep putting their fingers in their ears going "la la la not true la la la they only get it at age 18 la la la " .:bored:

I knew they were being given medication/ puberty blockers at a very young age .

[Zizu]

Which is what i was trying to say , but people keep putting their fingers in their ears going "la la la not true la la la they only get it at age 18 la la la " .:bored:

I knew they were being given medication/ puberty blockers at a very young age .


Excuse the copy and pasting


:::

The NHS is thankfully shutting down its gender identity clinic for children at the Tavistock and Portman NHS foundation trust after it was criticised in an independent review.

The Tavistock clinic, named the Gender and Identity Development Service (Gids), was launched more than three decades ago to help children and other young people struggling with their gender identity.

But in recent years, concerns have repeatedly been raised about the service. Inspectors rated it “inadequate” after complaints raised by whistleblowers, patients and families.
The service was criticised for its care of patients both inside and outside the clinic, and it also had record waiting lists. Doctors reported concerns that some patients were referred on to a gender transitioning pathway too quickly.
“The aim is to close the Tavistock clinic [the Gender and Identity Development Service (Gids)] by spring 2023, moving to the new provider model through specialist children hospitals,” a senior NHS source told the Guardian. There will be no immediate changes for patients already under the Tavistock’s care, according to the source. “The children being seen by the Tavistock (and those on waiting lists) will be transferred to a new provider over the course of that time.”

It followed recommendations from Dr Hilary Cass, who is leading an independent review of gender identity services for children and young people.

Yes, an NHS review has found that the drugs that the NHS has been giving to some children may disrupt their brain development and leave them less able to make complex decisions. Those drugs might have long-term consequences for the mental functioning of the children who were given them.
Now, years after their use began, Cass proposes that the NHS undertake serious and systematic research into the use of puberty blockers. Put another way, now that the horse has left the stable and has run*headlong into a brick wall, we’re starting to think about whether bolting the stable door might be a good idea.
This all raises many grim questions. Here are just two. Given the lack of evidence supporting the use of puberty blockers and the volume of concerns raised about their use, why has it taken so long for the uncertainties and risks around their use to be officially recognised? And is there any other context in which the responsible authorities – medical, governmental and political – would have been so slow to intervene over such scandalous disregard for the welfare of children?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[arista]

A tragic turn of events that’ll lead to even higher self harm and suicide rates for trans youth, I just hope that all the transphobes pushing for things like this can live comfortably knowing they’ll have blood on their hands because of their ignorance



Yes that is sad
Liam

[Redway]

No lie was told by the NHS. No doubting certain people will come for me and my ‘messed up way of thinking’ just because I have a non-biased moral compass that might seem a bit unfairly uncompromising but at the end of the day you can’t go messing with a kid who’s still trying to figure out what their identity is in the first place. Sheriff and Swan are more-than welcome to argue with me for the sake of arguing but I don’t think I’m alone with these sentiments.

[Redway]

With the amount of trans-identified people who have other mental disorders (https://www.spectrumnews.org/news/largest-study-to-date-confirms-overlap-between-autism-and-gender-diversity/), it's good that such things are being considered.

Children and young people who are questioning their "gender" would be better off being given coping strategies to help them come to terms with not being what they "identify" as.

There's no evidence that blockers are safe and reversible, so anything is better than throwing safeguarding to wind.

Let’s hold it right there. Transsexualism isn’t a mental disorder. That’s an incredibly backwards way of thinking.

[Mystic Mock]

Let’s hold it right there. Transsexualism isn’t a mental disorder. That’s an incredibly backwards way of thinking.

I agree with this.

We may all have different opinions on this thread, but the one thing we do need to be careful of is the way that Trans people are being classed as mentally ill by some people.

[Redway]

According to some people on this little forum anyone who doesn’t have the same opinion, preference or outlook as them has a diagnosis that warrants them being straitjacketed in a secure unit with no right to privacy (ironically) so I’m not surprised some people think transgenders are insane. People love to pathologise what they don’t like or understand.

[Redway]

Idiots.

[GoldHeart]

Let’s hold it right there. Transsexualism isn’t a mental disorder. That’s an incredibly backwards way of thinking.

This is from the NHS website itself

Gender dysphoria is a term that describes a sense of unease that a person may have because of a mismatch between their biological sex and their gender identity.

This sense of unease or dissatisfaction may be so intense it can lead to depression and anxiety and have a harmful impact on daily life.


I don't think Oliver meant it in an offensive way ,and technically it is a condition that the doctor diagnoses . Like I keep saying shouldn't the whole point be to DE stigmatise mental health , anxiety,body Dysmorphia etc aswell as other conditions out there.

There's real life science studies to show that trans people's brains are similar to the opposite gender, so clearly their feelings & what they're going through is very real . I don't think anyone is calling them "straight jacket crazy" .
But people especially these days may suffer with other conditions & issues that they need support with. We need to stop stigmatising struggles as we're all human and should help eachother out.

[Oliver_W]

Let’s hold it right there. Transsexualism isn’t a mental disorder. That’s an incredibly backwards way of thinking.

It literally is though. Body dysmorphia in general is a mental health disorder, no-one would dispute that. So why does saying that become controversial when we're talking about someone whose "gender identity" doesn't align with what they actually are?

[Zizu]

This is from the NHS website itself

Gender dysphoria is a term that describes a sense of unease that a person may have because of a mismatch between their biological sex and their gender identity.

This sense of unease or dissatisfaction may be so intense it can lead to depression and anxiety and have a harmful impact on daily life.


I don't think Oliver meant it in an offensive way ,and technically it is a condition that the doctor diagnoses . Like I keep saying shouldn't the whole point be to DE stigmatise mental health , anxiety,body Dysmorphia etc aswell as other conditions out there.

There's real life science studies to show that trans people's brains are similar to the opposite gender, so clearly their feelings & what they're going through is very real . I don't think anyone is calling them "straight jacket crazy" .
But people especially these days may suffer with other conditions & issues that they need support with. We need to stop stigmatising struggles as we're all human and should help eachother out.


Yes . .. that is my take on Oliver’s post .


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Niamh.]

A tragic turn of events that’ll lead to even higher self harm and suicide rates for trans youth, I just hope that all the transphobes pushing for things like this can live comfortably knowing they’ll have blood on their hands because of their ignorance

What a ridiculous and irresponsible claim to make Liam. When did we get to a place where suicide is used as a threat like that? You don't give children life altering drugs with irreversible side effects because they might commit suicide otherwise, when did we get to this point? What the NHS are saying is that they need to explore more thoroughly what's going on in that young persons head before setting them on such an extreme pathway. The reason why the Tavistock is being closed is because there was no other areas of the young persons problems looked at other than their gender claims and evidence strongly suggests that a lot of those claiming to be trans in recent years are autistic and probably not actually trans at all. What is the actual issue in making sure that they are trans before giving them drugs that will cause sterilisation and life long medicalisation? I don't understand why you're so against making sure first?

[Redway]

It literally is though. Body dysmorphia in general is a mental health disorder, no-one would dispute that. So why does saying that become controversial when we're talking about someone whose "gender identity" doesn't align with what they actually are?

It wasn’t too long ago that homosexuality was a psychiatric diagnosis.

[Redway]

I’m not even pro-trans. like that but I just know I don’t regard them as sick for wanting to transition.

[Oliver_W]

It wasn’t too long ago that homosexuality was a psychiatric diagnosis.

An attraction to the same sex isn't really comparable to believing your body is wrong. You may as well compare homosexuality to anorexia.

[Redway]

An attraction to the same sex isn't really comparable to believing your body is wrong. You may as well compare homosexuality to anorexia.

Short of 60 - 90 milligrams of phenelzine (which isn’t even well-known as a treatment for troublesomely-divergent sexual orientations, but I personally believe it most-likely has some benefit) there’s little in the way of actual medical treatment for gender dysphoria (which is a whole-different best to body dysmorphic disorder so between you and God only y’all know where on Earth that comparison came from). That speaks bits to me.

[Parmy]

Doctors know best

[Oliver_W]

Short of 60 - 90 milligrams of phenelzine (which isn’t even well-known as a treatment for troublesomely-divergent sexual orientations, but I personally believe it most-likely has some benefit) there’s little in the way of actual medical testament for gender dysphoria (which is a whole-different best to body dysmorphic disorder so between you and God only y’all know where on Earth that comparison came from). That speaks bits to me.
Body dysmophic disorders and "gender dysphoria" are closer to each other than either are with homosexuality. Both show a disconnect between someone's body and their mental perception.

[Redway]

Doctors know best

Lol. I doubt you’d be saying that in 1965.

[Redway]

Body dysmophic disorders and "gender dysphoria" are closer to each other than either are with homosexuality. Both show a disconnect between someone's body and their mental perception.

I just think that pathologising them and seeing them as functional hebephrenic depressives is a very outdated and anti-L.G.B.T. way of thinking. Look, I’m not necessarily pro-trans. (at-all) but every lucid-enough adult should have a right to free will without being called crazy (although I admittedly more-than draw the line at people identifying with the ‘sixteenth gender’ and all those other arbitrary non-binary classifications, because that really is nuts).

[Niamh.]

I just think that pathologising them and seeing them as functional hebephrenic depressives is a very outdated and anti-L.G.B.T. way of thinking. Look, I’m not necessarily pro-trans. (at-all) but every lucid-enough adult should have a right to free will without being called crazy (although I admittedly more-than draw the line at people identifying with the ‘sixteenth gender’ and all those other arbitrary non-binary classifications, because that really is nuts).

This thread is not about adults though, it's about treatment of under 18's and being more thorough. The reason why they're doing this is because they've began to get sued by young patients who were given these drugs and now regret it (and can't ever fully change their bodies back) and are saying they should have been investigated more thoroughly by the Dr's and therapists who dealt with them

https://theconversation.com/tavistock-clinic-fallout-what-the-courts-would-consider-in-litigation-by-former-patients-149788

[Redway]

This thread is not about adults though, it's about treatment of under 18's and being more thorough. The reason why they're doing this is because they've began to get sued by young patients who were given these drugs and now regret it (and can't ever fully change their bodies back) and are saying they should have been investigated more thoroughly by the Dr's and therapists who dealt with them

https://theconversation.com/tavistock-clinic-fallout-what-the-courts-would-consider-in-litigation-by-former-patients-149788

And I fully agree that kids/younger teenagers should have suitable restrictions imposed on them re. transitioning (I did say that nearer the top of this thread) but Oliver’s spun the line out further and called ‘gender-dysphoria’ a straight-up mental disorder, which I just think is an outdated line of thinking.

[Niamh.]

And I fully agree that kids/younger teenagers should have suitable restrictions imposed on them re. transitioning (I did say that nearer the top of this thread) but Oliver’s spun the line out further and called ‘gender-dysphoria’ a straight-up mental disorder, which I just think is an outdated line of thinking.

That's a whole other discussion to the one in this thread

[Redway]

That's a whole other discussion to the one in this thread

It might be but that’s the direction Oliver seemed to want to take it.

[Zizu]

Doctors know best


A few weeks ago a young doctor said to me ..

“we basically know NOTHING about Covid19 “
..

So reassuring.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Oliver_W]

I just think that pathologising them and seeing them as functional hebephrenic depressives is a very outdated and anti-L.G.B.T. way of thinking. Look, I’m not necessarily pro-trans. (at-all) but every lucid-enough adult should have a right to free will without being called crazy (although I admittedly more-than draw the line at people identifying with the ‘sixteenth gender’ and all those other arbitrary non-binary classifications, because that really is nuts).
"I don't think people compulsively starving themselves or throwing up everything they eat should be branded as having a disorder"

[Redway]

"I don't think people compulsively starving themselves or throwing up everything they eat should be branded as having a disorder"

I’m not the one who likened transsexualism with bulimia/anorexia nervosa. At least go off my words if you want to argue.

[Redway]

Going off the tangent in such an off-the-mark, ‘erm this is so-blatantly not what he said for a split second but let me just self-contradict myself to be a transphobic’ way is a very lazy way to argue.

[Crimson Dynamo]

President Joe Biden has said it is wrong to block children’s access to sex change
surgeries or puberty blockers.

Mr Biden, who hosted a popular trans TikToker at the White House last week:umm2:,
said he believed it was both a moral and legal issue as he spoke to a panel of
activists for the NowThis News presidential forum.

When asked if red states should have the right to pass laws limiting access to
gender reassignment treatments, Mr Biden said in comments published on
Sunday: “I don’t think any state or anybody should have the right to do that.


“As a moral question and as a legal question, I just think it’s wrong,” the
president added.

:facepalm:

[bots]

he is desperate for votes in the midterms

[Crimson Dynamo]

he is desperate for votes in the midterms

Its actually pathetic

[Oliver_W]

I’m not the one who likened transsexualism with bulimia/anorexia nervosa. At least go off my words if you want to argue.

No, I'm the one drawing the comparison. I'm not the one acting as if someone wanting to alter their body chemistry and increase their risk of strokes (https://www.pcori.org/research-results/2018/stroke-and-blood-clot-risk-transgender-women-taking-hormones) just so they can grow moobs, because of their "gender" ... doesnt have a mental disorder.

[Liam-]

I mean he’s right though, in a country that based itself off of freedom, taking away a families choice of how to deal with a sensitive situation like having a trans child and the choice of how to proceed is legally and morally wrong

[Redway]

No, I'm the one drawing the comparison. I'm not the one acting as if someone wanting to alter their body chemistry and increase their risk of strokes (https://www.pcori.org/research-results/2018/stroke-and-blood-clot-risk-transgender-women-taking-hormones) just so they can grow moobs, because of their "gender" ... doesnt have a mental disorder.

‘I’m not the one who claims that an ignorant non-vegetarian who wilfully increases their chance of cancer just to eat red meat doesn’t have an undiagnosed mental disorder.’

Your transphobia (thinly-veiled through you being relatively well-read and thinking that your semi-academic air is enough to present your opinions as indisputable facts) is disgusting.

[Redway]

I mean he’s right though, in a country that based itself off of freedom, taking away a families choice of how to deal with a sensitive situation like having a trans child and the choice of how to proceed is legally and morally wrong

I’m not even talking about kids though (I agree that developing teenagers/young kids should be given enough time to really think through their choices/options) if that post is aimed at me. I’m just addressing Oliver’s silliness and transphobia.

[Liam-]

I’m not even talking about kids though (I agree that developing teenagers/young kids should be given enough time to really think through their choices/options) if that post is aimed at me. I’m just addressing Oliver’s silliness and transphobia.

No that was aimed at the Biden bashing, you’re right about Oliver, he loves to paint trans people as mentally ill quite often

[Redway]

No that was aimed at the Biden bashing, you’re right about Oliver, he loves to paint trans people as mentally ill quite often

Oh, I see.

And yeah, Oliver’s a funny one. People are entitled to have whatever opinions they like in private but such undisguised transphobia/pathologisation of the T. community (and a ridiculous parallel being drawn with eating disorders) through just isn’t acceptable in 2022. It’s crazy.

[Zizu]

President Joe Biden has said it is wrong to block children’s access to sex change
surgeries or puberty blockers.

Mr Biden, who hosted a popular trans TikToker at the White House last week:umm2:,
said he believed it was both a moral and legal issue as he spoke to a panel of
activists for the NowThis News presidential forum.

When asked if red states should have the right to pass laws limiting access to
gender reassignment treatments, Mr Biden said in comments published on
Sunday: “I don’t think any state or anybody should have the right to do that.


“As a moral question and as a legal question, I just think it’s wrong,” the
president added.

:facepalm:


To be fair he doesn’t know what day it is


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Redway]

We have a lot of people on this forum who love to paint others as mentally-ill (to the point of needing to be locked away in secure units) just for having a different opinion/lifestyle to them but the difference is Oliver’s pathologisation of trans. people goes unchecked just because he happens to articulate his posts well enough. If this was sheriff443 (another annoying poster who says the most ridiculous things) bans would be handed out like hot cakes.

[Oliver_W]

I'm not really sure where you're getting "transphobia" from? Why is it apparently offensive to say that someone's mental perception of themself is contrary to their physical reality?

I don't think there's anything wrong with people having mental ill-health, and acting like it's an insult smacks of stigmatisation.

[Redway]

I'm not really sure where you're getting "transphobia" from? Why is it apparently offensive to say that someone's mental perception of themself is contrary to their physical reality?

Because it’s 2022 for one thing.

[Redway]

And it’s a form of gaslighting,

[Crimson Dynamo]

But Oliver is kinda transphobic. That much is for show.

No he isnt

what you mean is he isnt pandering to the trans unscientific VS groupthink

[Oliver_W]

Because it’s 2022 for one thing.

"It's the current year!"

Okay.

[Oliver_W]

And it’s a form of gaslighting,

How so?

[Redway]

I'm not really sure where you're getting "transphobia" from? Why is it apparently offensive to say that someone's mental perception of themself is contrary to their physical reality?

I don't think there's anything wrong with people having mental ill-health, and acting like it's an insult smacks of stigmatisation.

I actually have a trans. friend who goes against your grail by being the perfect epitome of lucidity and good mental health. He (it was a female-to-male conversion) wasn’t deluded as to think that his genitals and biological sex weren’t what they were from birth-assignment. He just knew he wanted to transition genders, knowing the amount of ostracisation he’d face from people like you (and people even more flagrantly-transphobic, and in fairness I don’t think you’re the type to actively hate on them). I’m not sure someone who was psychiatrically-unstable in that sense would make such a life-altering decision and happily stick to it for life. The ‘delusion’ would’ve eventually wore-off by now if it was a form of dysmorphic psychosis and there’d probably be some sort of definite medication for it but there isn’t any. So naturally I don’t regard him as mentally-ill just for having a sexual preference. I’m not super-down with the trans. life and you won’t see me actively-campaigning for them (which by my standards is even bad) but I’m definitely not going to pathologise them for making a choice as an intelligent-enough adult.

[Redway]

How so?

You’re dictating to someone how their inner sense of gender-identity should be in conformance with their genitals and calling them crazy for expressing free will. How is that not messing with their own perception of THEIR reality (not yours)?

[Redway]

I’m not saying being woke is enough to defy scientific reality but when it comes to something as nuanced as that there isn’t actually any universal reality. That’s why individuals (of a suitable age, no-doubt) are allowed to make the choice to be who they want to be. Gaslighting people/calling them crazy when they’re obviously functional and experience whatever thoughts and feelings they have in alignment with something subjective to them just isn’t a good look. You don’t have to like them or what they do but if they’re not crazy they’re not crazy. You’re just repulsed by the idea of trans. people doing what they do.

[Oliver_W]

the amount of ostracisation he’d face from people like you
I wouldn't ostracise someone for their conditions :shrug:

You’re dictating to someone how their inner sense of gender-identity should be in conformance with their genitals and calling them crazy for expressing free will. How is that not messing with their own perception of THEIR reality (not yours)?
I'm not saying anyone should say or think anything - they're allowed to be wrong :laugh: when it comes down to it, we are our bodies. Their reality is the body they're born into. If there's a disconnect between what they are and which aspects of a social construct they "identify" as ... how is that any different to a thin person perceiving a fat person in the mirror? Would it be gaslighting to tell them that they're not fat?

[Oliver_W]

I’m not saying being woke is enough to defy scientific reality but when it comes to something as nuanced as that there isn’t actually any universal reality. That’s why individuals (of a suitable age, no-doubt) are allowed to make the choice to be who they want to be. Gaslighting people/calling them crazy when they’re obviously functional and experience whatever thoughts and feelings they have in alignment with something subjective to them just isn’t a good look. You don’t have to like them or what they do but if they’re not crazy they’re not crazy. You’re just repulsed by the idea of trans. people doing what they do.
Again you seem to be implying a stigmatisation of mental health disorders. There's nothing wrong with being crazy :dance:

[The Slim Reaper]

Redway got up this morning and decided to choose violence

https://media0.giphy.com/media/PudZiAbQDUEik/200w.gif?cid=82a1493bx1l6j2y8mjp3jry2mf810nbauekr9 qzz4s13djw3&rid=200w.gif&ct=g

[Redway]

I wouldn't ostracise someone for their conditions :shrug:


I'm not saying anyone should say or think anything - they're allowed to be wrong :laugh: when it comes down to it, we are our bodies. Their reality is the body they're born into. If there's a disconnect between what they are and which aspects of a social construct they "identify" as ... how is that any different to a thin person perceiving a fat person in the mirror? Would it be gaslighting to tell them that they're not fat?

The thing you keep ignoring is that subjective gender-identity is dependent on the person and far-more nuanced than physiological sex in the strictest sense of the term (and, indeed, only a hebephrene, psychotic body-dysmorphic or delusionally-depressed person would be in any doubt about what biological sex their genitals conform to). I think the issue is that much of the world’s historically made gender a rigid dichotomy of behaviourist traits and expectations which have little biological basis and probably shouldn’t have an influence on anything other than relationship-family dynamics to a certain extent and I guess you could say people who strongly identify with the opposite pole (hormonal imbalances might be at play as-well) choose to transition largely for that reason but again the reasons vary from person to person and I don’t think there’s anyway cognisant leeway anyone has to get into all that without actually personally-experiencing it. But the bottom line is that trans. people pre.-surgery know too-well what their biological sex is. They have no problem understanding the reality of that. The determining crux for them is that they just don’t want to be of that biological sex but that’s a choice (however-misguided/unnatural you think it is), not a delusion.

[Redway]

Redway got up this morning and decided to choose violence

https://media0.giphy.com/media/PudZiAbQDUEik/200w.gif?cid=82a1493bx1l6j2y8mjp3jry2mf810nbauekr9 qzz4s13djw3&rid=200w.gif&ct=g

Erm.

[Redway]

Also, which medical model are you using for claiming that transsexualism is officially a mental disorder? It certainly isn’t the latest version of the ICD.

[Liam-]

I can’t get passed the having a trans friend but not being pro-trans, that’s wild to me on a different level and kinda hypocritical if I’m being honest

[Redway]

I can’t get passed the having a trans friend but not being pro-trans, that’s wild to me on a different level and kinda hypocritical if I’m being honest

I’m not uber pro-trans. in the way someone who was definitely part of the LGBT community would be but that’s just me being honest. It’s just like people (Christians-included) having gay friends but not actively-supporting the act of homosexuality. I’m not saying the latter anecdote applies to me at all but I can understand people having varying levels of personal opinions on the subject so long as an appropriate line’s drawn. Oliver doesn’t seem to know where the line is. I have my private opinions but at the same time I’m not living in 1966 or desperately-trying to pathologise transgendered people while hypocritically saying that the real stigma comes from people who take offence on behalf of them for saying they’re not mentally-ill. And that’s just kind of how it is.

[Redway]

I can’t get passed the having a trans friend but not being pro-trans, that’s wild to me on a different level and kinda hypocritical if I’m being honest

Also, I think you mean past.*

Sorry. I couldn’t resist.

[Redway]

Nothing to add, Oliver, no?

[Mystic Mock]

I mean he’s right though, in a country that based itself off of freedom, taking away a families choice of how to deal with a sensitive situation like having a trans child and the choice of how to proceed is legally and morally wrong

I'm probably going off on a tangent with what I'm about to say here, so apologies in advance.

But is any country truly free? I know that the USA likes to pretend it is, but I personally feel like there's always been cracks in their system that prove otherwise.

My main example being that the two main parties are so corrupt that there's basically no chance of a new party rising up the ranks, which is no different to the UK.

So I'm not surprised that they as a country might be having some issues with Trans rights.

[Mystic Mock]

To be fair he doesn’t know what day it is


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

:joker:

[GoldHeart]

What a ridiculous and irresponsible claim to make Liam. When did we get to a place where suicide is used as a threat like that? You don't give children life altering drugs with irreversible side effects because they might commit suicide otherwise, when did we get to this point? What the NHS are saying is that they need to explore more thoroughly what's going on in that young persons head before setting them on such an extreme pathway. The reason why the Tavistock is being closed is because there was no other areas of the young persons problems looked at other than their gender claims and evidence strongly suggests that a lot of those claiming to be trans in recent years are autistic and probably not actually trans at all. What is the actual issue in making sure that they are trans before giving them drugs that will cause sterilisation and life long medicalisation? I don't understand why you're so against making sure first?

:clap1:

[Swan]

Why don't we let kids drink before 18? Drive before 17. Smoke before 18. Get married before 18? Why don't we even let kids watch certain films before 18?

[GoldHeart]

Again you seem to be implying a stigmatisation of mental health disorders. There's nothing wrong with being crazy :dance:

Exactly
Plus in 2022 ,with more mental health awareness ..you would think we were past the whole stigmatising. But sadly I guess not :bored:.

People suffer with depression , anxiety etc it's nothing to be ashamed of. And people shouldn't feel bad to ask for help :shrug:.

[Redway]

Exactly
Plus in 2022 ,with more mental health awareness ..you would think we were past the whole stigmatising. But sadly I guess not :bored:.

People suffer with depression , anxiety etc it's nothing to be ashamed of. And people shouldn't feel bad to ask for help :shrug:.

I think Oliver calling transgendered people mentally ill is more offensive than anything I’m saying. You’d think in 2022 we’d be past transphobia disguised as science.

[GoldHeart]

I think Oliver calling transgendered people mentally ill is more offensive than anything I’m saying. You’d think in 2022 we’d be past transphobia disguised as science.

I can't speak for Oliver,but I don't think anything he said was 'transphobic', as I keep saying technically 'gender dysphoria ' is a medical condition which doctors diagnose ,are you going to fight doctors on this ?? .

And it's a fact that some of these young children / teens are suffering with other conditions like autism , depression and so on :shrug:

[Redway]

I can't speak for Oliver,but I don't think anything he said was 'transphobic', as I keep saying technically 'gender dysphoria ' is a medical condition which doctors diagnose ,are you going to fight doctors on this ?? .

And it's a fact that some of these young children / teens are suffering with other conditions like autism , depression and so on :shrug:

It’s gone a bit beyond the topic of kids now. It’s about Oliver writing-off all forms of transsexualism as a mental disorder, which I can’t agree with.

Gender dysphoria’s only diagnosed when the trans. person experiences ‘clinically-significant’ distress over the lack of congruence between their personal sense of gender-identity and physiological sex (especially if they’re self-harming). It’s not actually a synonym for transsexualism, nor does every trans. person experience it.

I’m not arguing with the doctors on that.

[Redway]

I know gender-dysphoria was the premise of Ollie’s argument right through the thread but it’s not actually a sound or very solid premise. I just figured I’d argue around that in other ways to avoid having to state the blatantly-obvious. Comparing it to an eating disorder is like comparing a model who vibes with keto and avocado four weekdays a week to someone being tube-fed because of anorexia nervosa so-severe. They’re not nearly the same thing in either case.

[Oliver_W]

Also, which medical model are you using for claiming that transsexualism is officially a mental disorder? It certainly isn’t the latest version of the ICD.

I don't trust the motives behind declassifying it as a mental disorder tbh.

In what world is it not a mental disorder, when every other discordance between mind and body is?

[Oliver_W]

It’s gone a bit beyond the topic of kids now. It’s about Oliver writing-off all forms of transsexualism as a mental disorder, which I can’t agree with.

Gender dysphoria’s only diagnosed when the trans. person experiences ‘clinically-significant’ distress over the lack of congruence between their personal sense of gender-identity and physiological sex (especially if they’re self-harming). It’s not actually a synonym for transsexualism, nor does every trans. person experience it.

I’m not arguing with the doctors on that.

If someone wants to "transition" and doesn't have gender dysphoria, I'd quietly suggest they might have serious issues.
Such as being the victim of childhood abuse:

Seventy-three percent of TGAs reported psychological abuse, 39% reported physical abuse, and 19% reported sexual abuse.
https://publications.aap.org/pediatrics/article/148/2/e2020016907/179762/Disparities-in-Childhood-Abuse-Between-Transgender?autologincheck=redirected?nfToken=0000 0000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000

[Redway]

I don't trust the motives behind declassifying it as a mental disorder tbh.

In what world is it not a mental disorder, when every other discordance between mind and body is?

Certified shrink, are you?

[Oliver_W]

Certified shrink, are you?

One doesn't need to be. Someone whose mind is telling them they're something they're not (be it overweight when they're thin, or a woman when they're male) isn't a mind which is sound.

[Parmy]

President Joe Biden has said it is wrong to block children’s access to sex change
surgeries or puberty blockers.

Mr Biden, who hosted a popular trans TikToker at the White House last week:umm2:,
said he believed it was both a moral and legal issue as he spoke to a panel of
activists for the NowThis News presidential forum.

When asked if red states should have the right to pass laws limiting access to
gender reassignment treatments, Mr Biden said in comments published on
Sunday: “I don’t think any state or anybody should have the right to do that.


“As a moral question and as a legal question, I just think it’s wrong,” the
president added.

:facepalm:




He will burn in hell for those comments.

[Redway]

One doesn't need to be. Someone whose mind is telling them they're something they're not (be it overweight when they're thin, or a woman when they're male) isn't a mind which is sound.

Have you not been reading/paying attention to a single word of mine?

[Parmy]

What is an unsound mind, is someone who thinks inverting their penis so they can hurl a glass dildo into it on a daily basis to keep it from closing, suddenly makes them a woman.:crazy:

[Zizu]

It’s a crazy , crazy time .

In May 2021, Demi came out as non-binary and started using they/them pronouns. "Over the past year, I've been doing some healing and self-reflective work and, through this work, I've had the revelation that I identify as non-binary. With that said, I'll officially be changing my pronouns to they/them," Demi explained in an Instagram video.

"I feel that this best represents the fluidity that I feel in my gender expression and allows me to feel most authentic and true to the person I both know I am and still am discovering."

Today , Demi updated the pronouns on their Instagram to let fans know that they now use they/them/she/her pronouns. However, the 'Substance' singer didn't go into any detail about the change other than ..

Demi opened up about her decision to use both they/them and she/her pronouns. "For me I’m such a fluid person… I felt like especially last year, my energy was balanced in my masculine & feminine energy," Demi explained.

"When I was faced with the choice of walking into a bathroom and it said ‘women’ and ‘men,’ I didn’t feel like there was a bathroom for me. I didn’t feel necessarily like a woman. I didn’t feel like a man. I just felt like a human. And that’s what they/them is about for me. It’s just about feeling human at your core."

Demi continued: "Recently, I’ve been feeling more feminine and so I’ve adopted she/her again."


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro of Io

[Crimson Dynamo]

It’s a crazy , crazy time .

In May 2021, Demi came out as non-binary and started using they/them pronouns. "Over the past year, I've been doing some healing and self-reflective work and, through this work, I've had the revelation that I identify as non-binary. With that said, I'll officially be changing my pronouns to they/them," Demi explained in an Instagram video.

"I feel that this best represents the fluidity that I feel in my gender expression and allows me to feel most authentic and true to the person I both know I am and still am discovering."

Today , Demi updated the pronouns on their Instagram to let fans know that they now use they/them/she/her pronouns. However, the 'Substance' singer didn't go into any detail about the change other than ..

Demi opened up about her decision to use both they/them and she/her pronouns. "For me I’m such a fluid person… I felt like especially last year, my energy was balanced in my masculine & feminine energy," Demi explained.

"When I was faced with the choice of walking into a bathroom and it said ‘women’ and ‘men,’ I didn’t feel like there was a bathroom for me. I didn’t feel necessarily like a woman. I didn’t feel like a man. I just felt like a human. And that’s what they/them is about for me. It’s just about feeling human at your core."

Demi continued: "Recently, I’ve been feeling more feminine and so I’ve adopted she/her again."


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro of Io

f me. Id imagine pink and or blue hair

[Mystic Mock]

It’s a crazy , crazy time .

In May 2021, Demi came out as non-binary and started using they/them pronouns. "Over the past year, I've been doing some healing and self-reflective work and, through this work, I've had the revelation that I identify as non-binary. With that said, I'll officially be changing my pronouns to they/them," Demi explained in an Instagram video.

"I feel that this best represents the fluidity that I feel in my gender expression and allows me to feel most authentic and true to the person I both know I am and still am discovering."

Today , Demi updated the pronouns on their Instagram to let fans know that they now use they/them/she/her pronouns. However, the 'Substance' singer didn't go into any detail about the change other than ..

Demi opened up about her decision to use both they/them and she/her pronouns. "For me I’m such a fluid person… I felt like especially last year, my energy was balanced in my masculine & feminine energy," Demi explained.

"When I was faced with the choice of walking into a bathroom and it said ‘women’ and ‘men,’ I didn’t feel like there was a bathroom for me. I didn’t feel necessarily like a woman. I didn’t feel like a man. I just felt like a human. And that’s what they/them is about for me. It’s just about feeling human at your core."

Demi continued: "Recently, I’ve been feeling more feminine and so I’ve adopted she/her again."


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro of Io

Demi Lovato is using she/her pronouns when identifying as Non-Binary.:conf:

Admittedly Demi's lost me on that.:laugh:

[Oliver_W]

Have you not been reading/paying attention to a single word of mine?

You told me what year it is, called me names, and said "no it isn't." What did I miss?

[Crimson Dynamo]

You told me what year it is, called me names, and said "no it isn't." What did I miss?

nothing

:skull:

[GoldHeart]

Demi Lovato is using she/her pronouns when identifying as Non-Binary.:conf:

Admittedly Demi's lost me on that.:laugh:

I don't have much time for Demi ,she was clinging onto the whole 'non binary' thing as a trend. And surprise surprise now gone back to "she her" pronouns :rolleyes: .

She also thought by cutting her hair ,it was something revolutionary . When plenty of women have short hair. And how she doesn't feel like wearing makeup on some days etc . I don't understand how that makes someone non binary ...but ok .

Plenty of women aren't always ultra feminine all the time :shrug: .

[Oliver_W]

Demi Lovato is using she/her pronouns when identifying as Non-Binary.:conf:

Admittedly Demi's lost me on that.:laugh:

I don't have much time for Demi ,she was clinging onto the whole 'non binary' thing as a trend. And surprise surprise now gone back to "she her" pronouns :rolleyes: .

She also thought by cutting her hair ,it was something revolutionary . When plenty of women have short hair. And how she doesn't feel like wearing makeup on some days etc . I don't understand how that makes someone non binary ...but ok .

Plenty of women aren't always ultra feminine all the time :shrug: .
She's sadly most likely fromthe section of the "gender diverse community" who faced sexual abuse in her formative years, having been a Disney Star...

She's talked abou (https://www.today.com/health/demi-lovato-opens-about-suicidal-thoughts-depression-t191518)t depression and overcoming suicidal ideation before too, so at the very least (and hopefully exclusively) she has that co-morditity...

[GoldHeart]

She's sadly most likely fromthe section of the "gender diverse community" who faced sexual abuse in her formative years, having been a Disney Star...

She's talked abou (https://www.today.com/health/demi-lovato-opens-about-suicidal-thoughts-depression-t191518)t depression and overcoming suicidal ideation before too, so at the very least (and hopefully exclusively) she has that co-morditity...

Was Demi abused ? .. that's sad if so . I could tell there's psychological issues ,I hope she finds some type of healing.

She was also reaching out to the wrong people aswell , I forgot his name but there was a guy who was encouraging her ..and I'm sure I heard he's a predator .


Also I think alot of these non binary people back in the 90s & early 00s would have just identified as 'goth' or 'emo', I saw a comment where a goth guy said he got confused for being in the same umbrella ,but he's just goth . I think alot of the 'non binary' community just like feeling special with this new label. Obviously I know this doesn't apply to all of them.

[Zizu]

Was Demi abused ? .. that's sad if so . I could tell there's psychological issues ,I hope she finds some type of healing.

She was also reaching out to the wrong people aswell , I forgot his name but there was a guy who was encouraging her ..and I'm sure I heard he's a predator .


Also I think alot of these non binary people back in the 90s & early 00s would have just identified as 'goth' or 'emo', I saw a comment where a goth guy said he got confused for being in the same umbrella ,but he's just goth . I think alot of the 'non binary' community just like feeling special with this new label. Obviously I know this doesn't apply to all of them.


The article I read kinda suggested she was in some kind of relationship with Miley Cyrus’s sister .. Miley is also non binary

Must be something in the water :)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Oliver_W]

Was Demi abused ? .. that's sad if so . I could tell there's psychological issues ,I hope she finds some type of healing.


I don't know for sure, but young girl in Hollywood, in Disney? Who then went on to present several signs of mental ill health? All I'm gonna say is I wouldn't be surprised, but I hope not.

[Zizu]

I don't know for sure, but young girl in Hollywood, in Disney? Who then went on to present several signs of mental ill health? All I'm gonna say is I wouldn't be surprised, but I hope not.


She was warning about the problems and the pitfalls of being a child star …


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Redway]

https://youtu.be/OdtlBnYGM9E

Anyway, the fact is that transsexualism is no-longer classified as a mental disorder. Whatever your personal opinions are behind how-linked it is with gender-dysphoria and whether or not it should still be classed as a disorder are your messed-up opinions, not facts.

[GoldHeart]

https://youtu.be/OdtlBnYGM9E

Anyway, the fact is that transsexualism is no-longer classified as a mental disorder. Whatever your personal opinions are behind how-linked it is with gender-dysphoria and whether or not it should still be classed as a disorder are your messed-up opinions, not facts.

Why are you saying this like it's a cemented FACT , as we were saying alot of these youngsters are still developing physically and emotionally . Their brains are still developing for goodness sake .

Plus gender dysphoria is linked with depression , and other conditions. And as i already said some of these teens are likely autistic or have other conditions .

And how can you deny that someone growing up feeling extremely unhappy in their skin & body , and feeling like another gender is not linked with some form of psychological situation?.

As i keep saying we need to stop stigmatising mental health .

[Redway]

Why are you saying this like it's a cemented FACT , as we were saying alot of these youngsters are still developing physically and emotionally . Their brains are still developing for goodness sake .

Plus gender dysphoria is linked with depression , and other conditions. And as i already said some of these teens are likely autistic or have other conditions .

And how can you deny that someone growing up feeling extremely unhappy in their skin & body , and feeling like another gender is not linked with some form of psychological situation?.

As i keep saying we need to stop stigmatising mental health .

We’re not talking about kids and teenagers under 18. I agree that people that age are way too ‘developing’ to make a life-altering choice if that ilk and I’ve said that 1002 times already. Between me and Oliver we’re discussing transsexualism in a broader scope (as it pertains to adults) and I’m trying to shift him from this cemented, backwards view he seems to have of transsexuality invariably being a mental illness.

Gender-dysphoria, which I’ve never doubted is a serious mental health concern, is not synonymous with just being transgender (which, again, I’ve said).

Let’s try and go off what I’ve actually said for the purpose of these arguments.

[Redway]

I was actually feeling a little somehow about not being properly pro.-trans in the way that someone who was actually part of that community would be but compared to some people on this thread (and I’m not necessarily trying to victimise you per-se, GoldHeart) I’m actually not that prejudiced. At least I’m not the one desperate to pathologise trans. folk by any means necessary, as if I was getting paid for it. When it comes to stuff like this I just say what I know.

[Mystic Mock]

I don't have much time for Demi ,she was clinging onto the whole 'non binary' thing as a trend. And surprise surprise now gone back to "she her" pronouns :rolleyes: .

She also thought by cutting her hair ,it was something revolutionary . When plenty of women have short hair. And how she doesn't feel like wearing makeup on some days etc . I don't understand how that makes someone non binary ...but ok .

Plenty of women aren't always ultra feminine all the time :shrug: .

Well I'm confused.

Is Demi Lovato Non-Binary or not?

[arista]

Well I'm confused.

Is Demi Lovato Non-Binary or not?


Put inside Twitter:
Is Demi Lovato Non-Binary or not


https://twitter.com/krismacattack/status/1395345212390653957


Twitter thanked me,
for your words Mock

You have helped their Searching data.

[Mystic Mock]

Put inside Twitter:
Is Demi Lovato Non-Binary or not


https://twitter.com/krismacattack/status/1395345212390653957


Twitter thanked me,
for your words Mock

You have helped their Searching data.

And they're welcome.:dance:

[Mystic Mock]

And personally speaking I feel like debates with different opinions are a good thing, otherwise it's not really much of a debate.

These things shouldn't get too personal imo, obviously I understand it's different if you fit the demographic that's being discussed.

[Oliver_W]

Well I'm confused.

Is Demi Lovato Non-Binary or not?
No-one's non-binary, it's not a valid thing to "be" .
and I’m trying to shift him from this cemented, backwards view he seems to have of transsexuality invariably being a mental illness.

Gender-dysphoria, which I’ve never doubted is a serious mental health concern, is not synonymous with just being transgender (which, again, I’ve said).

I never said that being trans-identifying is of itself a mental illness, but it's a symptom of mental illness.

Someone who wants to "transition", who doesn't have gender dysphoria, must surely have other forms of mental ill-health. Likely scars from childhood abuse, as shown in link I posted upthread. Or more likely autism, as shown by various studies which demonstrate an overlap between ASD and trans-identification.

[GoldHeart]

Oh I agree that Transphobia is wrong, and something that hopefully will evaporate over time.

I just don't want people on here falling out with each other over these topics.

Unfortunately there's alot of damaging stuff out there that gets a platform ,which seems to be making the community look bad.

idiots with huge prosthetic knockers calling themselves "trans" . When really it's some freak living out his fetish in Canada in a school of all places .

Or angry activists doxxing JK Rowling's address ,and sending her hate . It's not helping anything.

[Redway]

No-one's non-binary, it's not a valid thing to "be" .

I never said that being trans-identifying is of itself a mental illness, but it's a symptom of mental illness.

Someone who wants to "transition", who doesn't have gender dysphoria, must surely have other forms of mental ill-health. Likely scars from childhood abuse, as shown in link I posted upthread. Or more likely autism, as shown by various studies which demonstrate an overlap between ASD and trans-identification.

That, on the other hand, something I can 100% side on.

[Liam-]

Unfortunately there's alot of damaging stuff out there that gets a platform ,which seems to be making the community look bad.

idiots with huge prosthetic knockers calling themselves "trans" . When really it's some freak living out his fetish in Canada in a school of all places .

Or angry activists doxxing JK Rowling's address ,and sending her hate . It's not helping anything.

And in the real world, violent hate crimes against trans people have skyrocketed over the past couple of years, not just mean words on Twitter, actual physical violence purely because of who they are, people like you seem to not acknowledge the serious knock on effect the rise of the anti-trans movement has had on real life trans people just trying to live their lives.

And the idiot with the prosthetic turned out to have nothing to do with being trans, he was a disgruntled man making a point about the different standards between discipline for men and women, but shock horror, the anti-trans folk jumped on it without a care in the world and used it for their own agenda.

[Niamh.]

And in the real world, violent hate crimes against trans people have skyrocketed over the past couple of years, not just mean words on Twitter, actual physical violence purely because of who they are, people like you seem to not acknowledge the serious knock on effect the rise of the anti-trans movement has had on real life trans people just trying to live their lives.

And the idiot with the prosthetic turned out to have nothing to do with being trans, he was a disgruntled man making a point about the different standards between discipline for men and women, but shock horror, the anti-trans folk jumped on it without a care in the world and used it for their own agenda.

Where have you gotten your figures for these hate crimes against trans people? I haven't seen a single article or read a single news story about that.

As for your second point, that actually proves what most of us "terfs" have been saying all along, people will take this loophole and exploit it, I mean that's literally what we've been saying all along. I don't for a second believe for example that these men who have identified as women to get into female prisons and sexually assault women are genuine transwomen, they're men who saw this lovely loophole and exploited it to get easy access to vulnerable women.

[Liam-]

Where have you gotten your figures for these hate crimes against trans people? I haven't seen a single article or read a single news story about that.

As for your second point, that actually proves what most of us "terfs" have been saying all along, people will take this loophole and exploit it, I mean that's literally what we've been saying all along. I don't for a second believe for example that these men who have identified as women to get into female prisons and sexually assault women are genuine transwomen, they're men who saw this lovely loophole and exploited it to get easy access to vulnerable women.

https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2022/10/06/hate-crimes-reach-all-time-high-government-report/

Includes the report from the home office that hate crimes against trans people have gone up by over 50%

That incident proves nothing of the sort except the anti-trans movement will make anything negative about trans people, it had literally nothing to do with trans people but the movement chose to make it about them

[Niamh.]

https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2022/10/06/hate-crimes-reach-all-time-high-government-report/

Includes the report from the home office that hate crimes against trans people have gone up by over 50%

That incident proves nothing of the sort except the anti-trans movement will make anything negative about trans people, it had literally nothing to do with trans people but the movement chose to make it about them

A lot of these "hate crimes" recorded are tweets reported stating that biological sex is real.... Still haven't seen a single actual news story of trans people being attacked etc, seen a lot of women being attacked and harassed for their views on biology though

That incident absolutely proves that it's more important to validate mens feelings over women and childrens safety & dignity

[Liam-]

A lot of these "hate crimes" recorded are tweets reported stating that biological sex is real.... Still haven't seen a single actual news story of trans people being attacked etc, seen a lot of women being attacked and harassed for their views on biology though

That incident absolutely proves that it's more important to validate mens feelings over women and childrens safety & dignity

I mean, when the media is pretty much controlled by right wing conservatives you’re pretty much certain to not see reports of trans people being attacked splashed on the covers are you? There was however a story earlier this year about a trans guy who was put in hospital in Dublin I think, after him and his friends were attacked at a pride event, the denial of violence against trans people is disturbing tbh but not at surprising, might be a case of blissful ignorance I think

[Crimson Dynamo]

I mean, when the media is pretty much controlled by right wing conservatives you’re pretty much certain to not see reports of trans people being attacked splashed on the covers are you? There was however a story earlier this year about a trans guy who was put in hospital in Dublin I think, after him and his friends were attacked at a pride event, the denial of violence against trans people is disturbing tbh but not at surprising, might be a case of blissful ignorance I think

So you know of one "attack"?

[Niamh.]

I mean, when the media is pretty much controlled by right wing conservatives you’re pretty much certain to not see reports of trans people being attacked splashed on the covers are you? There was however a story earlier this year about a trans guy who was put in hospital in Dublin I think, after him and his friends were attacked at a pride event, the denial of violence against trans people is disturbing tbh but not at surprising, might be a case of blissful ignorance I think

WTF??? Are you seriously trying to claim that :laugh2: The mainstream media is about as left as you can get ffs (honestly the media should be neither and should be impartial but it isn't)

[Redway]

I mean, when the media is pretty much controlled by right wing conservatives you’re pretty much certain to not see reports of trans people being attacked splashed on the covers are you? There was however a story earlier this year about a trans guy who was put in hospital in Dublin I think, after him and his friends were attacked at a pride event, the denial of violence against trans people is disturbing tbh but not at surprising, might be a case of blissful ignorance I think

Rise in hate crime reporting: 'Verbal and physical abuse happens daily' https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-coventry-warwickshire-63170188

Transgender hate crimes recorded by police go up 81% https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48756370

At least try and find relevant links that might prove a point.

[Liam-]

WTF??? Are you seriously trying to claim that :laugh2: The mainstream media is about as left as you can get ffs (honestly the media should be neither and should be impartial but it isn't)

Oh come on now, you know that’s just false

[Crimson Dynamo]

Oh come on now, you know that’s just false

Twitter, Facebook, Whatsapp, INsta, the BBC, ITV, YOutube?

all right wing?

[Niamh.]

Rise in hate crime reporting: 'Verbal and physical abuse happens daily' https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-coventry-warwickshire-63170188

Transgender hate crimes recorded by police go up 81% https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48756370

At least try and find relevant links that might prove a point.

Again a lot of these hate crimes are people reporting tweets, off the top of my head I can think of 4 news stories where police arrested people for "offensive tweets" and had to drop it because the people actually hadn't broken any laws or said anything hateful/threatening etc

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-humber-47005937

https://www.faircop.org.uk/case-studies/kellie-jay-keen-minshull/

[Niamh.]

Oh come on now, you know that’s just false

I swear this feels like the Twilight Zone sometimes, so the BBC for example who until very recently were "champions" of Stonewall* are right wing are they?

*Until that Nolan investigation exposed the harmful influence and biased nature of this on what is supposed to be objective journalism

[Redway]

Again a lot of these hate crimes are people reporting tweets, off the top of my head I can think of 4 news stories where police arrested people for "offensive tweets" and had to drop it because the people actually hadn't broken any laws are said anything hateful/threatening etc

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-humber-47005937

https://www.faircop.org.uk/case-studies/kellie-jay-keen-minshull/

There’s no doubt about the Twitter stuff but at the end of the day LGBT people are often victimised and assaulted so when it comes to that part of the argument per-se I’m willing to hear Liam out. Especially when some of the information in the links I posted do actually reference serious assaults on trans. people. I don’t think that much can be denied.

[Liam-]

Rise in hate crime reporting: 'Verbal and physical abuse happens daily' https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-coventry-warwickshire-63170188

Transgender hate crimes recorded by police go up 81% https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48756370

At least try and find relevant links that might prove a point.

You could put hundreds of trans people who have been physically attacked for being trans in front of transphobes and they still wouldn’t accept or believe it, I don’t even know why I’m continuing to proceed with the discussion tbh because it goes around in constant circles on here

[Oliver_W]

That, on the other hand, something I can 100% side on.

In that case, you're half way toward Stopped Clock Status and it ain't even lunchtime :dance:

[Oliver_W]

You could put hundreds of trans people who have been physically attacked for being trans in front of transphobes and they still wouldn’t accept or believe it

Maybe you could, but you haven't... tweets aren't violence.

[Redway]

I think I’m just middle-of-the-road when it comes to this whole discussion. On the one hand there’s no way I think under-18s (personally I’d say under-21s) are developed enough to be deemed capable of going through with sexual reassignment (although I wouldn’t have referred to the wanting to in kids and adolescents in such a dismissive/‘it’s just a phase, kids’ way) but at the same time I just don’t get why people seem so adamant to either invariably pathologise transgendered folk experiences or deny that transphobic assaults do happen. I can see where most sides of these arguments come from (and they’re absolutely valid in so many other ways) but if homophobic and even racial assaults occur then so do transphobic ones and there’s evidence to prove that. The fact that a lot of homophobia and racism happens online/on Twitter doesn’t mean face-to-face physical abuse doesn’t happen and it’s a similar case with trans. folk.

[GoldHeart]

And in the real world, violent hate crimes against trans people have skyrocketed over the past couple of years, not just mean words on Twitter, actual physical violence purely because of who they are, people like you seem to not acknowledge the serious knock on effect the rise of the anti-trans movement has had on real life trans people just trying to live their lives.

And the idiot with the prosthetic turned out to have nothing to do with being trans, he was a disgruntled man making a point about the different standards between discipline for men and women, but shock horror, the anti-trans folk jumped on it without a care in the world and used it for their own agenda.

When did I deny physical hate crimes happen?? Please tell me :facepalm: .

The fact that you don't see how damaging that perverted prosthetic breasted bloke is to the trans community ,is actually mind boggling. He found a loophole and took advantage which is extremely worrying,because he put the 'trans' label on himself. Which is what we've been saying is happening,which by the way is another reason 'anti trans ' movement has gone up . Because weirdos like that are trying to ruin the trans & LGBT community all round.

I don't care what BS excuse he was using for his hideous behaviour ,he knew full well that gormless Canada would go along with his antics . He made the children feel uncomfortable and it was very innapropriate . Plus he was mocking women.

[Niamh.]

When did I deny physical hate crimes happen?? Please tell me :facepalm: .

The fact that you don't see how damaging that perverted prosthetic breasted bloke is to the trans community ,is actually mind boggling. He found a loophole and took advantage which is extremely worrying,because he put the 'trans' label on himself. Which is what we've been saying is happening,which by the way is another reason 'anti trans ' movement has gone up . Because weirdos like that are trying to ruin the trans & LGBT community all round.

I don't care what BS excuse he was using for his hideous behaviour ,he knew full well that gormless Canada would go along with his antics . He made the children feel uncomfortable and it was very innapropriate . Plus he was mocking women.

Exactly, spot on Goldheart. And there are plenty of trans people who see this too, just have a look on youtube

[Parmy]

https://youtu.be/OdtlBnYGM9E

Anyway, the fact is that transsexualism is no-longer classified as a mental disorder. Whatever your personal opinions are behind how-linked it is with gender-dysphoria and whether or not it should still be classed as a disorder are your messed-up opinions, not facts.



Some will be, some wont..no matter what this pathetic video clip says.

[Parmy]

I mean, when the media is pretty much controlled by right wing conservatives you’re pretty much certain to not see reports of trans people being attacked splashed on the covers are you? There was however a story earlier this year about a trans guy who was put in hospital in Dublin I think, after him and his friends were attacked at a pride event, the denial of violence against trans people is disturbing tbh but not at surprising, might be a case of blissful ignorance I think

What proof is there that they were attacked for being trans?

[Parmy]

Rise in hate crime reporting: 'Verbal and physical abuse happens daily' https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-coventry-warwickshire-63170188

Transgender hate crimes recorded by police go up 81% https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48756370

At least try and find relevant links that might prove a point.

Are 3 year old statistics relevent to now?

[Redway]

Are 3 year old statistics relevent to now?

Hate crime has always existed and hasn’t just stopped occurring 3 years later. What is your point?

[Parmy]

Hate crime has always existed and hasn’t just stopped occurring 3 years later. What is your point?

My points are, it may be dropping, and you have used 3 year old statistics trying to be relevant whilst digging at someone for posting non relevant links.

[Redway]

My points are, it may be dropping, and you have used 3 year old statistics trying to be relevant whilst digging at someone for posting non relevant links.

I’m saying nothing other than the fact that hate-crime is obviously a real phenomenon and that it applies to all sorts of marginalised groups, in 2019 (and well-before) and now. I don’t know what’s to gain by denying it or pretending it doesn’t exist.

[Parmy]

Infact, I could probably easily say it's dropped by 30 percent,at least,since those statistics.

[Mystic Mock]

Unfortunately there's alot of damaging stuff out there that gets a platform ,which seems to be making the community look bad.

idiots with huge prosthetic knockers calling themselves "trans" . When really it's some freak living out his fetish in Canada in a school of all places .

Or angry activists doxxing JK Rowling's address ,and sending her hate . It's not helping anything.

Oh I know that side of the Trans community exists, and really aren't helping the community be accepted.

Especially the Teacher with the huge Breasts and sexualized outfits.

[Redway]

Infact, I could probably easily say it's dropped by 30 percent,at least,since those statistics.

Any evidence of that?

[Mystic Mock]

And in the real world, violent hate crimes against trans people have skyrocketed over the past couple of years, not just mean words on Twitter, actual physical violence purely because of who they are, people like you seem to not acknowledge the serious knock on effect the rise of the anti-trans movement has had on real life trans people just trying to live their lives.

And the idiot with the prosthetic turned out to have nothing to do with being trans, he was a disgruntled man making a point about the different standards between discipline for men and women, but shock horror, the anti-trans folk jumped on it without a care in the world and used it for their own agenda.

Oh the person weren't Trans?

And on the violence against Trans people rising, that is obviously disgusting and hopefully something that the Government or the Police will try to fix.

[Parmy]

Any evidence of that?

Just my ability to put 2 and 2 together regarding covid and people being out and about.

[Redway]

Just my ability to put 2 and 2 together regarding covid and people being out and about.

But would that actually be indicative of a change in attitude?

[Parmy]

But would that actually be indicative of a change in attitude?

Probably not, but with nobody posting the last 2 years statistics we will all just have to guess on that one until they do.So I cant say for sure.What I can say for sure though, is that the percentages will have plummetted since 2019.

[Redway]

https://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=AwrFNKZ2ZFljqe4JzTNx.9w4;_ylu=Y29sbwNiZjEEcG9 zAzEEdnRpZAMEc2VjA3Nj/RV=2/RE=1666831607/RO=10/RU=https%3a%2f%2fwww.sandiegouniontribune.com%2fne ws%2fcourts%2fstory%2f2022-10-25%2fman-gets-jail-probation-for-beating-of-transgender-person-at-east-village-homeless-center/RK=2/RS=4.g.NcIz6RATIvQQvGsfPinsaAA-

https://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=AwrFNKZ2ZFljqe4J1DNx.9w4;_ylu=Y29sbwNiZjEEcG9 zAzEEdnRpZAMEc2VjA3Ny/RV=2/RE=1666831607/RO=10/RU=https%3a%2f%2fwww.hrc.org%2fresources%2ffatal-violence-against-the-transgender-and-gender-non-conforming-community-in-2022/RK=2/RS=KaBUQmLZ9cFNmKwYcqkC3WstX_Y-

https://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=AwrFNKZ2ZFljqe4J1TNx.9w4;_ylu=Y29sbwNiZjEEcG9 zAzIEdnRpZAMEc2VjA3Ny/RV=2/RE=1666831607/RO=10/RU=https%3a%2f%2fwww.washingtonblade.com%2f2022%2f 10%2f25%2ftransgender-rights-attacked-during-yesli-vega-rally%2f/RK=2/RS=t2eXWGfR9bST0bV3U0tot0CD1Jk-

https://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=AwrFNKZ2ZFljqe4J1jNx.9w4;_ylu=Y29sbwNiZjEEcG9 zAzMEdnRpZAMEc2VjA3Ny/RV=2/RE=1666831607/RO=10/RU=https%3a%2f%2fwww.advocate.com%2ftransgender%2f 2022%2f5%2f06%2fhere-are-trans-americans-killed-2022-so-far/RK=2/RS=OyH6y.81wfTzSQM0s6cVBzih7Mc-

https://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=AwrFNKZ2ZFljqe4J2TNx.9w4;_ylu=Y29sbwNiZjEEcG9 zAzYEdnRpZAMEc2VjA3Ny/RV=2/RE=1666831607/RO=10/RU=https%3a%2f%2fwww.nbcnews.com%2fnbc-out%2fout-politics-and-policy%2fnearly-240-anti-lgbtq-bills-filed-2022-far-targeting-trans-people-rcna20418/RK=2/RS=SGMWJdMGb552RzIPBsKL_UEs4NE-

https://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=AwrNPvIwZVlj_D8K0ixx.9w4;_ylu=Y29sbwNiZjEEcG9 zAzMEdnRpZAMEc2VjA3Ny/RV=2/RE=1666831793/RO=10/RU=https%3a%2f%2fwww.theguardian.com%2fworld%2f202 2%2fapr%2f08%2ftrans-people-mental-health-crisis-point-uk-warn-experts/RK=2/RS=hkKpGE_Lq5ZUn6xvgjbCz8eB5hk-

Trans woman stabbed in horrific Birmingham attack, say police https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-58718183

[Parmy]

I'm not really interested in america, nor its black on black crime.

[Redway]

I'm not really interested in america, nor its black on black crime.

That says it all.

[Redway]

This, btws, is the full article: https://www.england.nhs.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/B1937-ii-Interim-service-specification-for-specialist-gender-dysphoria-services-for-children-and-young-people-.pdf

[Niamh.]

https://thepostmillennial.com/8000-minors-on-waiting-list-sex-change-treatment-in-uk-as-referrals-continue-to-surge

[Nicky91]

it's not just going through a phase though


example a: Bruce Jenner: successful olympic athlete, whom it never felt right to living as a man, who is much happier now living as Caitlyn



or remember the one german singer who is internationally well known (for her music) Kim Petras (yup she too is trans, has been since she was 4 or 5 can't remember correctly but from a very very young age anyway)



even one ends up winning the eurovision song contest, in the 90's for Israel, Dana International (and quite a gorgeous hot woman she is too, i myself as a straight guy, i have a crush at her)

[bots]

can't say i've ever fancied any women with a full blown beard :shrug:

[Niamh.]

it's not just going through a phase though


example a: Bruce Jenner: successful olympic athlete, whom it never felt right to living as a man, who is much happier now living as Caitlyn



or remember the one german singer who is internationally well known (for her music) Kim Petras (yup she too is trans, has been since she was 4 or 5 can't remember correctly but from a very very young age anyway)



even one ends up winning the eurovision song contest, in the 90's for Israel, Dana International (and quite a gorgeous hot woman she is too, i myself as a straight guy, i have a crush at her)Maybe read the article through Nicky. Obviously, some people are genuinely dysphoric.

[Redway]

Nicky: yeah, no.

[Gusto Brunt]

I remember being at school and there were boys who didn't like fighting, liked music lessons, and hated football.

They were sometimes called 'sissies'. Now they'd be considered trans.

[user104658]

it's not just going through a phase though


example a: Bruce Jenner: successful olympic athlete, whom it never felt right to living as a man, who is much happier now living as Caitlyn



or remember the one german singer who is internationally well known (for her music) Kim Petras (yup she too is trans, has been since she was 4 or 5 can't remember correctly but from a very very young age anyway)



even one ends up winning the eurovision song contest, in the 90's for Israel, Dana International (and quite a gorgeous hot woman she is too, i myself as a straight guy, i have a crush at her)

You're naming people who transitioned as adults though Nicky and the research is specifically talking about children/adolescents. In my experience (of having a teenage child in early high school) it does seem to be correct... my daughter's school is very EDI-minded and supportive of kids discovering themselves, my daughter has had several friends who have experimented with gender (all female-to-male, which is far more common) and in fact at one point more than half of the girls she knew from primary school were identifying as male - I think a pretty clear example of social contagion, but obviously semi-anecdotal. Anyway... after roughly 18 to 24 months, the vast majority have cycled through various descriptors and new names only to settle back on their original natal gender and original name. At this point she has one female-to-male identifying friend and knows 2 or 3 others out of the whole year group (at one point there were 25+) which seems like a "realistic" proportion of the population who have genuinely found something in it, while the rest experimented but ultimately found they'd been most comfortable as they were.

IMO it's pretty clear from that that it's healthy to let kids and adolescents EXPERIMENT with identity - as we always have - but that (being blunt) adults should be loosely supportive but basically stay out of it. The problems arise when an adult social framework is applied to teens and pre-teens which is completely inappropriate. Too much affirmation is as bad as none at all. It forces these kids into a corner and into a decision they're nowhere near ready to make for themselves. The goal, surely, should be normalisation of experimentation - not celebration of it. It's vital to be sure that people are taking action for their own internal sense of self, and not for external validation. I'm hesitant to say "for attention" because "attention-seeking" has such negative connotations. I don't mean it in a negative way. It's perfectly understandable that kids who have felt marginalised or ignored would seek attention and validation from both adults and peers.

[user104658]

I remember being at school and there were boys who didn't like fighting, liked music lessons, and hated football.

They were sometimes called 'sissies'. Now they'd be considered trans.

:oh: I hated football and I love music! And I certainly didn't like physically fighting.

Thankfully I was built like a brick sh*thouse from a young age so if push came to shove (excuse the pun) I didn't have to worry about being called names :joker:.

[Liam-]

I remember being at school and there were boys who didn't like fighting, liked music lessons, and hated football.

They were sometimes called 'sissies'. Now they'd be considered trans.

No, they wouldn’t be

[The Slim Reaper]

So in a different thread, Oliver said contra points had been cancelled. I had no idea who this person was, so I YT'd them.

Turns out she's a trans woman who makes vids. I watched this vid of hers last night that I think actually provides a perspective that a lot of the forum could do with watching - she points out some of the problems with the trans community - talks about the twitter mob, but also provides a perspective on some of the bigotry issues that I've previously mentioned myself. It's an hour and a half, so prob a bit too long for a lot of folks, but it's there if you want to watch it.

7gDKbT_l2us

[Oliver_W]

Even if in some cases trans-identification isn't a phase, kids should never be allowed to medically transition. As SB said, experimenting with names and styling is one thing, but going down a medical path should never be an option for children.

I knew I was attracted to other guys when I was fairly young, but no-one would argue this means I could consent to sex. So why should children who "identify" as what they're not be put on life changing -elective and basically cosmetic- medication?

[Niamh.]

So in a different thread, Oliver said contra points had been cancelled. I had no idea who this person was, so I YT'd them.



Turns out she's a trans woman who makes vids. I watched this vid of hers last night that I think actually provides a perspective that a lot of the forum could do with watching - she points out some of the problems with the trans community - talks about the twitter mob, but also provides a perspective on some of the bigotry issues that I've previously mentioned myself. It's an hour and a half, so prob a bit too long for a lot of folks, but it's there if you want to watch it.



7gDKbT_l2usI'll watch that later, thanks [emoji106]

[Alf]

Us smokers are the most discriminated against group right now.

[Oliver_W]

So in a different thread, Oliver said contra points had been cancelled. I had no idea who this person was, so I YT'd them.

Turns out she's a trans woman who makes vids. I watched this vid of hers last night that I think actually provides a perspective that a lot of the forum could do with watching - she points out some of the problems with the trans community - talks about the twitter mob, but also provides a perspective on some of the bigotry issues that I've previously mentioned myself. It's an hour and a half, so prob a bit too long for a lot of folks, but it's there if you want to watch it.

7gDKbT_l2us

Contra :love:

She's also done a video on Cancelling :joker: She's been cancelled a few times by the psycho mob, but thankfully always bounces back.

[user104658]

Contra :love:

She's also done a video on Cancelling :joker: She's been cancelled a few times by the psycho mob, but thankfully always bounces back.

There's a reason that cancelling is a myth though - public opinion is roughly divided into three camps... two at each extreme who would like to "ban and cancel" and a big lump in the middle that doesn't care enough to be bothered either way). People "get cancelled" but all it does is increase their popularity with the other extreme whilst making no difference to the chunk in the middle. It's just a transfer, not a cancelling.

You can see clear examples of it with someone like Pier Morgan of course. The more he's hated from one end the more he's adored by the other, and he leans into it becoming ever-more deliberately sided with that mindset, and the cycle repeats.

[Oliver_W]

There's a reason that cancelling is a myth though - public opinion is roughly divided into three camps... two at each extreme who would like to "ban and cancel" and a big lump in the middle that doesn't care enough to be bothered either way). People "get cancelled" but all it does is increase their popularity with the other extreme whilst making no difference to the chunk in the middle. It's just a transfer, not a cancelling.

You can see clear examples of it with someone like Pier Morgan of course. The more he's hated from one end the more he's adored by the other, and he leans into it becoming ever-more deliberately sided with that mindset, and the cycle repeats.

I didn't say I believed in cancel culture to be fair. I think the Contra post above is the first time in ages I've even used those words; and even then as the multiple times Contra has had the hatemob on her doorstep it hasn't resulted in any loss of platform for her, it can't even be called that.

They never really resulted in a transference though, she just lost a few of her more psychotic fans for not being Pure enough.

[GoldHeart]

I remember being at school and there were boys who didn't like fighting, liked music lessons, and hated football.

They were sometimes called 'sissies'. Now they'd be considered trans.

Sad but true

[The Slim Reaper]

It was ok when we emasculated young males, and their self worth (I'm not going full Tate :laugh:) by calling them sissies, but a thing that has been totally made up is even more depressing.

:laugh:

This place is comedy gold.

[Liam-]

It was ok when we emasculated young males, and their self worth (I'm not going full Tate :laugh:) by calling them sissies, but a thing that has been totally made up is even more depressing.

:laugh:

This place is comedy gold.

If only we could go back to the days where kids can call other kids *****, what a scary time to be alive!

[Crimson Dynamo]

If only we could go back to the days where kids can call other kids *****, what a scary time to be alive!

Some children will be horrible to any child who is different and weak - same today as its always been

probably now its more online

[Parmy]

With the amount of trans-identified people who have other mental disorders (https://www.spectrumnews.org/news/largest-study-to-date-confirms-overlap-between-autism-and-gender-diversity/), it's good that such things are being considered.

Children and young people who are questioning their "gender" would be better off being given coping strategies to help them come to terms with not being what they "identify" as.

There's no evidence that blockers are safe and reversible, so anything is better than throwing safeguarding to wind.



:clap1:

[Crimson Dynamo]

Id imagine that the 8000 in Neems article - the parents would share very similar things....

[Zizu]

There's no evidence that blockers are safe and reversible, so anything is better than throwing safeguarding to wind.


I saw something that touched on this ..

It said that whilst many of the physical changes were somewhat reversible.. any changes to the brain were permanent


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[GoldHeart]

I saw something that touched on this ..

It said that whilst many of the physical changes were somewhat reversible.. any changes to the brain were permanent


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

I think it would depend how long they're on the hormone treatment, as after a while the effects would be permanent ... especially things like the voice changing and other physical stuff.
But if surgery has been involved, then sorry there's literally no reversing that ...no matter what anyone says .

[user104658]

I watched the Contra video - I agree that it's a good watch with a view to building a balanced view on some of these issues. I think it's far from being a balanced view in itself but I think that's somewhat inevitable and I think she is (probably) aware of that limitation on some level (but overlooks it quite a bit throughout). But yes, a good watch for some understanding of that specific perspective, I absolutely agree about the need for understanding that the "hateful people online" are mostly hurt/confused/angry/already embroiled in aggressive backlash from all sides (I can't remember exactly how she phrases it).

I honestly think mass social media is the absolute worst place to be having these sorts of discussions, for multiple reasons. Even smaller "community" forums like arr TiBB are (usually) better. We have our moments, anyway.

[Oliver_W]

Contra has won me over on a few topics; I'll never agree with children transitioning, or transwomen in women's sports or spaces; but she makes a convincing argument for acknowledging (or at least humouring) nonbinary identities.

Though I prefer her videos on non-trans issues.

[Niamh.]

I watched the Contra video - I agree that it's a good watch with a view to building a balanced view on some of these issues. I think it's far from being a balanced view in itself but I think that's somewhat inevitable and I think she is (probably) aware of that limitation on some level (but overlooks it quite a bit throughout). But yes, a good watch for some understanding of that specific perspective, I absolutely agree about the need for understanding that the "hateful people online" are mostly hurt/confused/angry/already embroiled in aggressive backlash from all sides (I can't remember exactly how she phrases it).

I honestly think mass social media is the absolute worst place to be having these sorts of discussions, for multiple reasons. Even smaller "community" forums like arr TiBB are (usually) better. We have our moments, anyway.

I haven't watched it through yet but she does come across as a reasonable person. Obviously has biases though (as most of us do) I can see why she thinks the way she does about the JK Rowling stuff as a trans woman however as a woman I see it differently, especially as a woman who has always been invested in women's rights. I still find it hard to understand why people thing it's more likely that JK Rowling has an anti trans agenda rather than a pro women's rights agenda (especially as she's a victim of domestic abuse herself)

[user104658]

Contra has won me over on a few topics; I'll never agree with children transitioning, or transwomen in women's sports or spaces; but she makes a convincing argument for acknowledging (or at least humouring) nonbinary identities.

The problem I found throughout the video, in simple terms, was that she too often takes a premise as accepted and builds a long argument on that premise ... but without making an argument for the premise. The root of logical debate is working a problem back until you reach an agreed premise and I think she jumps the gun on what's agreed.

In terms of "NB identities" for example, to even start down the route of validity you have to be at a place of agreement that the gender binary is real, that it's meaningful, and that the "problem" isn't the initial societal gender expectations and stereotypes. If you counter that that's effectively what NB identities are about... you also have to have the agreed premise that non-traditional gender presentations necessitate categorising and labelling.

My observation is actually that it's a late-millenial/early GenZ phenomenon, the later GenZ's and especially Gen Alpha kids seem to be moving past the rigitidy into a looser "I am what I am" territory that I personally think is likely to be a far healthier and less conflicted mindset.

[Zizu]

I think it would depend how long they're on the hormone treatment, as after a while the effects would be permanent ... especially things like the voice changing and other physical stuff.
But if surgery has been involved, then sorry there's literally no reversing that ...no matter what anyone says .


Exactly plus the changes in the brain/s sounds horrific !


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[The Slim Reaper]

I watched the Contra video - I agree that it's a good watch with a view to building a balanced view on some of these issues. I think it's far from being a balanced view in itself but I think that's somewhat inevitable and I think she is (probably) aware of that limitation on some level (but overlooks it quite a bit throughout). But yes, a good watch for some understanding of that specific perspective, I absolutely agree about the need for understanding that the "hateful people online" are mostly hurt/confused/angry/already embroiled in aggressive backlash from all sides (I can't remember exactly how she phrases it).

I honestly think mass social media is the absolute worst place to be having these sorts of discussions, for multiple reasons. Even smaller "community" forums like arr TiBB are (usually) better. We have our moments, anyway.

Fair reflection - I found some parts I agreed with, some I disagreed with, and some parts I didn't really feel werre necessary or she was qualified to even attempt - such as the psychoanalysing, but I think the fact she was fair, had issues with both sides (obviously those objections were not 50:50), is what would potentially make it a good watch for the people on this forum.

[Niamh.]

The problem I found throughout the video, in simple terms, was that she too often takes a premise as accepted and builds a long argument on that premise ... but without making an argument for the premise. The root of logical debate is working a problem back until you reach an agreed premise and I think she jumps the gun on what's agreed.

In terms of "NB identities" for example, to even start down the route of validity you have to be at a place of agreement that the gender binary is real, that it's meaningful, and that the "problem" isn't the initial societal gender expectations and stereotypes. If you counter that that's effectively what NB identities are about... you also have to have the agreed premise that non-traditional gender presentations necessitate categorising and labelling.

My observation is actually that it's a late-millenial/early GenZ phenomenon, the later GenZ's and especially Gen Alpha kids seem to be moving past the rigitidy into a looser "I am what I am" territory that I personally think is likely to be a far healthier and less conflicted mindset.

That is what we were always aiming for in the 90's as teens too though. To get rid of labels as such (except obviously were biology matters in a physical way) that people can like, dress, have a career in or enjoy whatever hobbies they want regardless of their sex

[The Slim Reaper]

I haven't watched it through yet but she does come across as a reasonable person. Obviously has biases though (as most of us do) I can see why she thinks the way she does about the JK Rowling stuff as a trans woman however as a woman I see it differently, especially as a woman who has always been invested in women's rights. I still find it hard to understand why people thing it's more likely that JK Rowling has an anti trans agenda rather than a pro women's rights agenda (especially as she's a victim of domestic abuse herself)

This is the part that Contra did the best for me. Probably because it aligns more naturally with the way that I've spoken about bigotry in the past around this subject, and how it isn't always the intention to be against something, but often for something else. If you get the chance to watch it, I'd be really interested in getting your thoughts on that particular topic.

[Niamh.]

This is the part that Contra did the best for me. Probably because it aligns more naturally with the way that I've spoken about bigotry in the past around this subject, and how it isn't always the intention to be against something, but often for something else. If you get the chance to watch it, I'd be really interested in getting your thoughts on that particular topic.

I have a bit of a drive to do after work today so I'll put the rest of it on in the car.

ETA. Although I probably won't post about it again till after the weekend, going somewhere where the internet is sketchy (plus honestly I enjoy not being online at the weekends!)

[The Slim Reaper]

I have a bit of a drive to do after work today so I'll put the rest of it on in the car.

ETA. Although I probably won't post about it again till after the weekend, going somewhere where the internet is sketchy (plus honestly I enjoy not being online at the weekends!)

You off to the cottage? Enjoy your weekend, and I look forward to your thoughts next week.

[Niamh.]

You off to the cottage? Enjoy your weekend, and I look forward to your thoughts next week.

Yep :love: Thanks I will

Are you up to much?

[user104658]

going somewhere where the internet is sketchy

Niamh leaving us on a quest to moderate the darkweb :worry:

[Niamh.]

Niamh leaving us on a quest to moderate the darkweb :worry:

:laugh2:

[The Slim Reaper]

Yep :love: Thanks I will

Are you up to much?

Nah, not this weekend. Spent most of Christmas/ny away, so just chilling. My cooker died last night and they can't come out until next Thursday, so I'm going to turn into a slob watching tv, and buried in the middle of loads of take away containers :laugh:

[Niamh.]

Nah, not this weekend. Spent most of Christmas/ny away, so just chilling. My cooker died last night and they can't come out until next Thursday, so I'm going to turn into a slob watching tv, and buried in the middle of loads of take away containers :laugh:

That doesn't sound so bad :laugh: