Is it OK to take advantage and exploit people with an addiction?

[Alf]

Well, is it?

Is constantly raising the tobacco tax doing this?

[Niamh.]

I could argue the case for either side on this one and I think both arguments are pretty valid :laugh:

[arista]

Well, is it?

Is constantly raising the tobacco tax doing this?


I want you Banned from smoking in the Street.


Smoke in Parks or your own garden only.

[Oliver_W]

I thought this was going to be a moral debate about actually exploiting friends or relatives with drug addictions or something :joker:

But I'm with Nyarrm, when it comes to tobacco prices rising, I see both sides.

[Alf]

I want you Banned from smoking in the Street.


Smoke in Parks or your own garden only.No need to be fascist about it. All I want is a quick drag of something that is legal.

We're already forced out into the cold and rain. Now we have to keep paying more and more for that discrimination.

[James]

Personally I think taxation should be mostly about raising money for public services rather than punishing people for behaviours.

[Swan]

Not imo, no.

The gambling companies are the most blatant at this. Every other ad, online, on tv etc is for gambling. They've been clever in recent years with the heavy promotion of everyday gambling being a social thing. They've done a 'great' job at normalising everyday gambling. I used to bet every weekend without fail on the football, though my last bet was the World Cup. After a good few grand wasted over the years down, i just find the idea of betting boring now.

The alcohol industry are also making a big push to attract the next gen of drinkers. Bud Light had a good go with that trans person on the cans. Especially for trying to attract younger people to drink beer, which has been on the downfall with younger drinkers over the years. Regardless of whether you drink beer or not, Bud Light is awful, so many other better tasting beers than that rubbish.

[Niamh.]

Personally I think taxation should be mostly about raising money for public services rather than punishing people for behaviours.

The argument you could use there (in a country with NHS) is that smokers should pay more to contribute to more health issues caused by smoking (a chosen behaviour) same with the tax on drink I suppose

[Alf]

The argument you could use there (in a country with NHS) is that smokers should pay more to contribute to more health issues caused by smoking (a chosen behaviour) same with the tax on drink I supposeCan't remember the last time I used the NHS. It's been so long, and I've never used it for anything related to smoking. Maybe one day I may do, who knows? But right now I'm not guilty of it.

[Cherie]

I would say I am addicted to buying clothes, but that is my choice, I can cut down and stop if I want to so the answer is yes, you can kick the addiction if you want to Alf, you just dont want to so you have to roll with it

What I really find galling is tax on savings, you have already paid tax, then you save a bit and they tax you again

[Alf]

I would say I am addicted to buying clothes, but that is my choice, I can cut down and stop if I want to so the answer is no, you can kick the addiction if you want to Alf, you just dont want to so you have to roll with it

What I really find galling is tax on savings, you have already paid tax, then you save a bit and they tax you againCould you cut down on travelling if your plane prices kept rising and rising?

[Niamh.]

Can't remember the last time I used the NHS. It's been so long, and I've never used it for anything related to smoking. Maybe one day I may do, who knows? But right now I'm not guilty of it.

Well yeah but you're still relatively young though

[Oliver_W]

What I really find galling is tax on savings, you have already paid tax, then you save a bit and they tax you again

Tax on interest too, and inheritance tax. Effing bullshte.

And taxes on pensions! It's already been earned, keep your thieving hands off it, gov!!

[Alf]

Well yeah but you're still relatively young thoughAlso, you could continually keep building hospitals and training staff with the tax from tobacco alone.

[Livia]

Gambling exploits people every day. It feels like every third ad on tv is for gambling.

[Cherie]

Could you cut down on travelling if your plane prices kept rising and rising?

I probably would have to tbf

[Niamh.]

I would say I am addicted to buying clothes, but that is my choice, I can cut down and stop if I want to so the answer is yes, you can kick the addiction if you want to Alf, you just dont want to so you have to roll with it

What I really find galling is tax on savings, you have already paid tax, then you save a bit and they tax you again

Or property tax (not sure if that's a thing in the UK?) but we already pay stamp duty when buying the house and are paying tax on our wages as well that's used to pay back the mortgage, it's like a triple tax

[Oliver_W]

Also, you could continually keep building hospitals and training staff with the tax from tobacco alone.

You're giving our government waaaay too much credit.

[Niamh.]

Also, you could continually keep building hospitals and training staff with the tax from tobacco alone.

It is a lot of tax on ciggies now so yeah there's that too, like I said I can see both sides of the argument on that one

[Alf]

I probably would have to tbfWouldn't want to though, would you? And some smokers Wouldn't want to just give up.

[Cherie]

Tax on interest too, and inheritance tax. Effing bullshte.

And taxes on pensions! It's already been earned, keep your thieving hands off it, gov!!


yep all wrong just greedy, and its criminal that Charles didn't pay any inheritance tax on 600 million or whatever it was he inherited

[Alf]

2 or 3 years ago I was paying around £12.50 for 30g of tobacco. Yesterday I had to pay £17.75.

[Cherie]

Wouldn't want to though, would you? And some smokers Wouldn't want to just give up.

No I get that you dont want to give up but that is your choice, there is tax on everything now anyway including a sugar tax so whatever your addition is you pay tax on it

[Oliver_W]

yep all wrong just greedy, and its criminal that Charles didn't pay any inheritance tax on 600 million or whatever it was he inherited

To be fair I don't think anyone should pay any inheritance tax, so outside of "the principle" I'm not too made he got away with it.

[Niamh.]

2 or 3 years ago I was paying around £12.50 for 30g of tobacco. Yesterday I had to pay £17.75.

I'm off them nearly a year and a half now but they're at €15.80 per 20 pack here now which is just under £14, that's crazy money

[bots]

the same applies to alcohol, but you wont hear so many people moaning about that.

It's actually a far bigger issue when you include things like petrol, because that is targeting the poorest in society

[user104658]

To be fair I don't think anyone should pay any inheritance tax, so outside of "the principle" I'm not too made he got away with it.

That would only compound the already-present problem of wealth hoarding. I do think inheritance should be easier for "normal families", but not for the very rich and the aristocracy. I'd see it be tax free up to a mugh higher threshold (maybe around £1million) but MORE heavily taxed above that.

In short, I don't think people should be heavily taxed if they inherit, say, a house from a grandparent, but I do think they should be heavily taxed if they inherit real wealth.

[Niamh.]

the same applies to alcohol, but you wont hear so many people moaning about that.

It's actually a far bigger issue when you include things like petrol, because that is targeting the poorest in society

No because if you smoke you are addicted to smoking(besides the very rare few who only smoke socially with a drink and they usually bum cigarettes from smokers :fist: ) but most people who drink aren't addicts so might only have a drink once a week or less so the price wouldn't be as big an issue as buying cigarettes

[Alf]

the same applies to alcohol, but you wont hear so many people moaning about that.

It's actually a far bigger issue when you include things like petrol, because that is targeting the poorest in societyAlcohol is chesp as anything. I can go to Lidl and can drink all night and get well pissed for £6.18

[Niamh.]

Alcohol is chesp as anything. I can go to Lidl and can drink all night and get well pissed for £6.18

Drinking in a pub is getting expensive though. I was in a hotel a couple of weeks ago and they charged €10 for a glass of wine

[Alf]

Drinking in a pub is getting expensive thoughI don't do it any more unless there's some occasion like a funeral or something. Why would I pay all that money for a pint and then be made to go outside to smoke. When I can drink 8 pints for just over £6 and smoke in the warmth and safety of my home?

[Niamh.]

I don't do it any more unless there's some occasion like a funeral or something. Why would I pay all that money for a pint and then be made to go outside to smoke. When I can drink 8 pints for just over £6 and smoke in the warmth and safety of my home?

I think a lot of people are thinking the same or you'd be more likely to have a just a couple out and have a drink at home before or after instead (or up in your hotel room :p )

[user104658]

No because if you smoke you are addicted to smoking(besides the very rare few who only smoke socially with a drink and they usually bum cigarettes from smokers :fist: ) but most people who drink aren't addicts so might only have a drink once a week or less so the price wouldn't be as big an issue as buying cigarettes

The big difference is in the type of addiction - it's quite "difficult" to get a physical addiction to alcohol, "casual alcoholism" is a social crutch or psychological addiction and that really has to go on for a while before a real alcohol dependence occurs (though when it does, it's a horrendous thing).

Smoking is almost the opposite - most people could psychologically "take it or leave it" but physical nicotine addiction kicks in FAST and is hard to shake... the main reason people are hooked on nicotine products is the nicotine itself (and how they feel if they DON'T have it), not the effect.

I do think smoking is an odd one, in terms of if it's exploitation. 30+ years ago I might have said yes, it is unfair exploitation, there was a huge amount of mixed messaging about smoking and the effects on health ans probability of addiction, so it seems totally wrong to get people hooked on a product and then repeatedly raise prices.

These days though? I'm not so sure. No one who has had their first smoke in the last few decades chose to do it without being in full knowledge of the facts;

1) It's bad for your health
2) It's addictive
3) It's expensive

... ... ... and with that in mind, I can't say I find it particularly abhorrent when taxes are raised on it. Anyone who claims they didn't know about the downsides BEFORE they took their first cigarette has to be lying.

[user104658]

have a just a couple out and have a drink at home before

Ahh, Uni life... leave the house already drunk to the gills, top it up through the night for less than £10 :joker:

[Niamh.]

Ahh, Uni life... leave the house already drunk to the gills, top it up through the night for less than £10 :joker:

Not just Uni life anymore my friend :laugh: like I said when we stayed in a hotel a couple of weeks back we had wine stashed in our room, we had a couple of glasses with dinner and then I asked them for an ice bucket and we went back to our room to drink our own wine :hehe:

[smudgie]

I would say I am addicted to buying clothes, but that is my choice, I can cut down and stop if I want to so the answer is yes, you can kick the addiction if you want to Alf, you just dont want to so you have to roll with it

What I really find galling is tax on savings, you have already paid tax, then you save a bit and they tax you again

Wouldn’t be so bad if you got a higher yield on ISAs, and you could pop unlimited amounts in every year.
But yes, tax on savings interest is naff.

[Niamh.]

The big difference is in the type of addiction - it's quite "difficult" to get a physical addiction to alcohol, "casual alcoholism" is a social crutch or psychological addiction and that really has to go on for a while before a real alcohol dependence occurs (though when it does, it's a horrendous thing).

Smoking is almost the opposite - most people could psychologically "take it or leave it" but physical nicotine addiction kicks in FAST and is hard to shake... the main reason people are hooked on nicotine products is the nicotine itself (and how they feel if they DON'T have it), not the effect.

I do think smoking is an odd one, in terms of if it's exploitation. 30+ years ago I might have said yes, it is unfair exploitation, there was a huge amount of mixed messaging about smoking and the effects on health ans probability of addiction, so it seems totally wrong to get people hooked on a product and then repeatedly raise prices.

These days though? I'm not so sure. No one who has had their first smoke in the last few decades chose to do it without being in full knowledge of the facts;

1) It's bad for your health
2) It's addictive
3) It's expensive

... ... ... and with that in mind, I can't say I find it particularly abhorrent when taxes are raised on it. Anyone who claims they didn't know about the downsides BEFORE they took their first cigarette has to be lying.

Of course the new generation are all vaping now, i don't think very many young people (as in under 20) smoke actual cigarettes anymore (I doubt they could afford to anyway)

[Redway]

I thought this was going to be a moral debate about actually exploiting friends or relatives with drug addictions or something :joker:

But I'm with Nyarrm, when it comes to tobacco prices rising, I see both sides.

Tobacco’s a drug quite alright, and it’s not even socially acceptable for people much younger than 25 to smoke it now.

[Cherie]

2 or 3 years ago I was paying around £12.50 for 30g of tobacco. Yesterday I had to pay £17.75.

You need to get yourself a passport and a cheap flight to Spain my niece gets all her tobacco on trips its a quarter of the price

Amber leaf is around 87 or 88 euros for 10 packs. 174 Euros for 20 pouches (50g) which included a free bottle of whisky or vodka

See how we are ripped off in this country

[user104658]

Tobacco’s a drug quite alright, and it’s not even socially acceptable for people much younger than 25 to smoke it now.

To be fair though - tobacco isn't the drug, nicotine is the drug and as Niamh says the teens-and-twenty-somethings are vaping up a storm ... and it's been found that the nicotine intake from vaping is MUCH higher than from smoking. Partly because of the intake method, partly because a lot of people who vape vape CONSTANTLY all day long, whereas in smokers, true "chain smoking" (50+ a day) is quite rare.

Basically... it's tasty and more socially acceptable. Should it be? I dunno... but it just is. When we travel to see family we always stay with my sister in law who is in her mid 20's and a heavy "vaper". She sits with us in the evening in a constant cloud of vape and it honestly doesn't bother anyone ... whereas if we were sat in a cloud of cigarette smoke... well, we just wouldn't stay there at all to be honest.

[Swan]

You need to get yourself a passport and a cheap flight to Spain my niece gets all her tobacco on trips its a quarter of the price

Gold leaf is around 87 or 88 euros for 10 packs. 174 Euros for 20 pouches (50g) which included a free bottle of whisky or vodka

See how we are ripped off in this country

A 50g pouch of Amber Leaf lasts me about a month (i have to put lettuce in the pouch after a week or 2 to keep it moist) and i get that off a "mate" for £20.

[Redway]

To be fair though - tobacco isn't the drug, nicotine is the drug and as Niamh says the teens-and-twenty-somethings are vaping up a storm ... and it's been found that the nicotine intake from vaping is MUCH higher than from smoking. Partly because of the intake method, partly because a lot of people who vape vape CONSTANTLY all day long, whereas in smokers, true "chain smoking" (50+ a day) is quite rare.

Basically... it's tasty and more socially acceptable. Should it be? I dunno... but it just is. When we travel to see family we always stay with my sister in law who is in her mid 20's and a heavy "vaper". She sits with us in the evening in a constant cloud of vape and it honestly doesn't bother anyone ... whereas if we were sat in a cloud of cigarette smoke... well, we just wouldn't stay there at all to be honest.

I vape CBD occasionally (and take it in other ways) but that’s the extent of it so I can’t comment from personal experience about this business of vaping e.-bifta juice. Just that lots and lots of people aged 40 or younger do it, and so do older people to some extent (especially the ones looking for a replacement to actual cigarettes). Certain pubs will still direct you outside if you want to vape (even CBD). Going outside every time you want to vape is just a long thing so I like it when people recognise that vapes aren’t like really cigarettes and make more allowances for “smoking” it indoors.

[James]

Of course the new generation are all vaping now, i don't think very many young people (as in under 20) smoke actual cigarettes anymore (I doubt they could afford to anyway)

Australia has just banned recreational vaping. They're only allowing it with a prescription, to help people quit smoking.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-65446352

[Cherie]

A 50g pouch of Amber Leaf lasts me about a month (i have to put lettuce in the pouch after a week or 2 to keep it moist) and i get that off a "mate" for £20.

Sorry yeah I meant Amber leaf I could become a tobacco mule I suppose, I know my niece sells some on :laugh:

[Redway]

Does anyone here still smoke actual cigarettes, out of interest?

From what I’ve seen it’s still a fairly common-ish thing for people aged 24/25+ but to the people who grew up in times where smoking was more-and-more actively shunned governmentally (starting with kiosk-shutters and then plain packaging) it seems to be almost non-existent. People who smoke weed in this part of the world (including teenagers) often make their spliffs with tobacco (often Amber Leaf, obviously) but that’s probably the most tobacco anyone under a certain age actually smokes these days.

[thesheriff443]

If you got issues buy some tissues
No one is born with a fag in their mouth or a needle in their arm

[user104658]

Does anyone here still smoke actual cigarettes, out of interest?

From what I’ve seen it’s still a fairly common-ish thing for people aged 24/25+ but to the people who grew up in times where smoking was more-and-more actively shunned governmentally (starting with kiosk-shutters and then plain packaging) it seems to be almost non-existent. People who smoke weed in this part of the world (including teenagers) often make their spliffs with tobacco (often Amber Leaf, obviously) but that’s probably the most tobacco anyone under a certain age actually smokes these days.

I only know one person who still actively smokes. A few who will still have one or two with a drink when they're out. Even my dad (who smoked for 50 years) and both of my in-laws (both smoked for 30+ years) have all quit smoking now. Father in law was on-and-off for a few years but has totally kicked it now.

The smoker I know is my aunt, who is in her early 70's, had massive alcohol problems for decades but got sober in her early 50's and has been teetotal for 20 years now... but she still adamantly hands onto her cigarettes. In her words to her doctor when he suggested as she was getting older she might want to stop - was that he could pry them from her cold, dead hands :joker:. She's very content with being a smoker and quite protective of her one vice, haha.

[user104658]

If you got issues buy some tissues
No one is born with a fag in their mouth or a needle in their arm

HORRIFICALLY, babies are actually born addicted to heroin, every day. It crosses the placenta so if mum was shooting up in pregnancy, baby is born an addict. Horrible situation.

[Redway]

I only know one person who still actively smokes. A few who will still have one or two with a drink when they're out. Even my dad (who smoked for 50 years) and both of my in-laws (both smoked for 30+ years) have all quit smoking now. Father in law was on-and-off for a few years but has totally kicked it now.

The smoker I know is my aunt, who is in her early 70's, had massive alcohol problems for decades but got sober in her early 50's and has been teetotal for 20 years now... but she still adamantly hands onto her cigarettes. In her words to her doctor when he suggested as she was getting older she might want to stop - was that he could pry them from her cold, dead hands :joker:. She's very content with being a smoker and quite protective of her one vice, haha.

Like I said tobacco tends to go into people’s spliffs these days than actually be smoked on its own so I’m not surprised. You still see a few people of all ages who smoke (especially at/around the pub and whatnot) but I know social/alcohol-induced smoking doesn’t really count, not if you wouldn’t actually do it normally and spend half of your lunch break blazing up on Benson and Hedges or Silk Cut (Silk Cut used to be one of my favourites when I was a regular smoker).

I wouldn’t worry about your aunt. The world needs more June Brown/Dot Cotton figures.

[Niamh.]

Does anyone here still smoke actual cigarettes, out of interest?

From what I’ve seen it’s still a fairly common-ish thing for people aged 24/25+ but to the people who grew up in times where smoking was more-and-more actively shunned governmentally (starting with kiosk-shutters and then plain packaging) it seems to be almost non-existent. People who smoke weed in this part of the world (including teenagers) often make their spliffs with tobacco (often Amber Leaf, obviously) but that’s probably the most tobacco anyone under a certain age actually smokes these days.

My father in law still smokes actual cigarettes, he's 82. I have a friend who quit smoking fulltime but she keeps a box of slim menthol cigarettes up in a cupboard and she'll have one or two of those the odd time with a drink (maybe every few months)

[Oliver_W]

That would only compound the already-present problem of wealth hoarding. I do think inheritance should be easier for "normal families", but not for the very rich and the aristocracy. I'd see it be tax free up to a mugh higher threshold (maybe around £1million) but MORE heavily taxed above that.

In short, I don't think people should be heavily taxed if they inherit, say, a house from a grandparent, but I do think they should be heavily taxed if they inherit real wealth.
By and large I see what you're saying, but the economy isn't in the crapper because there aren't enough coffins being raided.

Tobacco’s a drug quite alright, and it’s not even socially acceptable for people much younger than 25 to smoke it now.

Bleh you know what I meant by "drug" :joker: caffeine is a drug but I obviously didn't mean that either.

[Redway]

By and large I see what you're saying, but the economy isn't in the crapper because there aren't enough coffins being raided.



Bleh you know what I meant by "drug" :joker: caffeine is a drug but I obviously didn't mean that either.

Yeah, well, all drugs are drugs at the end of the day.

[Niamh.]

Australia has just banned recreational vaping. They're only allowing to help with a prescription, to help people quit smoking.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-65446352

Australia seem to be good at seeing an issue and stamping it out quickly, like they did with the gun laws after that school shooting there years ago

[thesheriff443]

HORRIFICALLY, babies are actually born addicted to heroin, every day. It crosses the placenta so if mum was shooting up in pregnancy, baby is born an addict. Horrible situation.

Yes I’ve heard of it, I think it’s called clucking wen the baby is born

[Beso]

Like swan out, these gambling adverts on TV are atrocious. It's clearly the work of the devil.

[user104658]

caffeine is a drug

The best drug :flutter:

[Redway]

I still don’t get why people aren’t at least allowed to vape CBD indoors in some places. It’s nothing like tobacco unless it’s mixed with it (which it won’t be with commercialised pre.-made ones what people tend to buy).

[MTVN]

No because if you smoke you are addicted to smoking(besides the very rare few who only smoke socially with a drink and they usually bum cigarettes from smokers :fist: ) but most people who drink aren't addicts so might only have a drink once a week or less so the price wouldn't be as big an issue as buying cigarettes

Yeah I think this is the big difference with smoking, it's the only thing that's legal where you'd only do it if you were physically addicted to it. I know you get 'social smokers' and 'smoke when I drink' people but they probably only buy like 0.1% of the cigarettes sold

I used to smoke lightly as in a pack a week and would defend it from increasing regulation and tax but really there's such little benefit to smoking, if you can gradually wean the population off it little by little then that's probably a good thing