Labour Party Assisted dying bill: passed / Esther Rantzen has joined Dignitas

[arista]

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[Kate!]

Just seen Gyles Brandreth discussing this on morning TV. Very sad for Esther and her family. I totally understand where she's coming from.

[smudgie]

.

Very sad.
You shouldn’t need to travel to a different country to be freed from the pain of dying.

[arista]

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/288B/production/_132097301_mirror-nc.jpg.webp

[Zizu]

…

She apparently stood by and did nothing despite knowing what SaVile was up to

[arista]

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[Alf]

…

She apparently stood by and did nothing despite knowing what SaVile was up toI've heard even worse than that, her husband comes into the rumours too. Obviously I don't know if it's true. But she was the person behind "childline" and we know how Saville disguised his goings on behind being a charitable icon.

Who killed Jill Dando?

[Zizu]

…

[arista]

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[arista]

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[arista]

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[arista]

Typical
I expected this..........

[Sir Keir Starmer supports assisted dying law change]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67785112

[Zizu]

Typical
I expected this..........

[Sir Keir Starmer supports assisted dying law change]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67785112


I can give him a list of names if he’s interested


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[arista]

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[arista]

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[arista]

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[arista]

BBC News Text :
[Ester Rantzen's call for the legalisation of assisted dying,
an issue the paper has been following closely.
It says the issue has taken a step forward
after the government said
"it would allow MPs to decide on changing the law".]

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[Gusto Brunt]

I've never understood the need for Dignitas.

Seems to me it's a place people go to announce their suicide and pay ££££s for the privilege. :rolleyes:

I'll NEVER promote suicide but a 2L bottle of vodka and 100 sleeping pills will do the job same way.

BUT PLEASE DON'T DO THAT.

Life is so precious. :)

[arista]

Sky News Text:
[The Express writes Dame Esther Rantzen,
a strong campaigner for assisted dying,
is "disappointed" that MPs who
heard evidence on the matter in parliament
did not push for a debate for a change in the law.]


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[Redrose]

I want this legalised in the UK but don't trust Brits. They will use it to make money and innocent people will end up losing their lives.

[arista]

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[arista]

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[arista]

Sky News Text :
[Dame Esther Rantzen has told the
Daily Express she is "fighting for my family and
lots of others" ahead of a debate in Parliament
on assisted dying.

The journalist and campaigner, who has
stage four lung cancer,
is campaigning for people who have
physical illnesses,
and a life expectancy of six months or less,
to have the right to choose when they die.]



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[Mystic Mock]

I personally think that it's a Human right for them to be able to choose if they want to die or not when they're terminally ill.

[Ammi]

.

Very sad.
You shouldn’t need to travel to a different country to be freed from the pain of dying.

…and also, you shouldn’t need to have a certain financial wealth, which atm is more how it is and legalising is the only way to change that, as I can see…

[joeysteele]

I am really torn on this issue.
For me there would have to be extremely rigid criteria for this with absolutely accountable and firm checks to ensure this is done EVERY TIME to the full criteria.

I'm thinking the possibility of an elderly person, who is diabetic, has other health issues so on lots of medications.
Thereby a strong cost of same to the State

Perhaps no relatives around as such.
However is terminally ill.
I'm not sure in that case, if assisted dying was legal, could that person be then 'encouraged' to agree to have their life terminated.
For more economic reasons and not just personal ones.
Someone elderly made to feel a burden, could come to agree to have their life ended.

For me, just one of that scenario would be too many .
I'm not sure I could feel I could trust the system to ensure that was completely impossible.

[Ammi]

I am really torn on this issue.
For me there would have to be extremely rigid criteria for this with absolutely accountable and firm checks to ensure this is done EVERY TIME to the full criteria.

I'm thinking the possibility of an elderly person, who is diabetic, has other health issues so on lots of medications.
Thereby a strong cost of same to the State

Perhaps no relatives around as such.
However is terminally ill.
I'm not sure in that case, if assisted dying was legal, could that person be 'encouraged' to agree to have their life terminated.
For more economic reasons and not just personal ones.
Someone elderly made to feel a burden, could come to agree to have their life ended.

For me, just one of that scenario would be too many .
I'm not sure I could feel I could trust the system to ensure that was completely impossible.


…yeah, it’s a very layered thing, isn’t it …so it requires the most utmost of trust and that’s something that we’re not exactly in the company of atm…it’s something that I think has been lost over time and is often taking another dent…so I’m with you in everything you say, Joey…but atm, it’s something that is available but in a form that is only available to those wealthy enough, really…and that’s very wrong….but yeah, trust in so many areas is something in itself that has a an ever deteriorating health….

[smudgie]

I am all for people having the choice when they want to die.
However there are some evil family members out there that would/could choose to speed it all up for their inheritance or to make sure the ill person didn’t have to go into a home and drain the profit from any property that would be left for them.
Personally I don’t understand going all that way so dignitas can end your life when you could do it yourself in the comfort of your own home.

[arista]

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[arista]

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[arista]

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[arista]

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[arista]

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[arista]

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[arista]

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[arista]

Labour MP has set up her Bill,




[Labour MP Kim Leadbeater’s Terminally
Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill
will give lawmakers in the
House of Commons a free vote,
allowing them to decide based on personal
conscience rather than party lines.]


[It's second reading, involving an MPs’ vote,
on 29 November. If it passes, the bill
will be scrutinised by a parliamentary
committee, when MPs can table
amendments. It will later be voted on
by the House of Lords,
before returning to the Commons.]


https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/oct/16/what-is-the-background-to-the-mps-vote-on-assisted-dying

[arista]

Yes, you best book your place..........................

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[joeysteele]

I'm really sad that Esther Rantzen is terminally ill.

However I'm not going to sit on the fence on this one now.
I don't believe that enough safeguarding could be put in place to ensure the fullest protection of all really vulnerable.

Thinking of the mistakes across the NHS and elsewhere as to patients.
I really don't believe it would be made impossible for this not to be abused.

I'd be, if I had a vote on it, I'd be voting against this bill.
I doubt myself it will fail to be supported but I fear a very slippery slope will be taken if and once it passes into law.

[Alf]

Yes, you best book your place..........................

https://liveblog.digitalimages.sky/lc-images-sky/lcimg-3011c542-0da0-4eb8-9f9f-e426a5b98729.pngThat's life, Esther

[arista]

The Assisted Dying Bill
is now going through Parliament.
Private Members Bill.

A free vote by MP's
but so many are saying Noto allow it
on TV & Radio news.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c3vln4pn3gzo

[arista]

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[arista]

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[MTVN]

I'm pleased there's some really good people opposing this on both sides of the political divide but I still fear it will pass

I'm very strongly opposed to it and wrote to my MP to say as much but he said he backs it. He is engaging on it at least though and is holding an event for constituents to provide views

[joeysteele]

I'm against this too.

I'm pleased to not be an MP voting on it.
I just don't believe there can be enough safeguarding in place

[Livia]

I am for the bill. I don't think anyone should be forced to face their final days in agony, or a terrifying morphine haze. There has to be a way where people can choose to end there own life, but where vulnerable people are also safeguarded. And let's not forget, hospitals have been opening windows and playing fans on people covered only in a sheet, but who are taking up beds and who end up dying from pneumonia. It's not a secret, but no one's ever demanded an inquiry.

[Liam-]

It’s about time we started treating treating people as well as we treat animals in their final agonising days, nobody has the right to force people to suffer in pain until they wither away, it’s plain cruelty

[arista]

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[joeysteele]

I just hope it fails.
Although I am deeply torn on this issue.

I just don't believe with particularly the condition of the NHS as it's been the last 10 years at least in need of just about everything reformed.

That it couldn't be a safe environment for this policy.
Even wider in communities where pressure could be more evident than real choice.

However at this time too, I don't believe ANY Party in government or in Parliament could present an absolutely 100% safeguarding on this issue.
I couldn't support it for those reasons.
One person pressured or feeling pressured to consent to being killed then it done, would be one WAY too many.
So I'd hope more in parliament think again on this.
From the PM other leaders of Parties and all MPs across the House of Commons.

[joeysteele]

I am for the bill. I don't think anyone should be forced to face their final days in agony, or a terrifying morphine haze. There has to be a way where people can choose to end there own life, but where vulnerable people are also safeguarded. And let's not forget, hospitals have been opening windows and playing fans on people covered only in a sheet, but who are taking up beds and who end up dying from pneumonia. It's not a secret, but no one's ever demanded an inquiry.

I think this is a very strong post on this issue.
Although I've found personally that had I a vote Id have to vote again.

Despite a string conflict on the issue whirling round my thoughts.
So I understand and respect that you support it.

However, your last 3 lines, which I don't dispute, highlight too POSSIBLE abuses that could be as to coercion of whatever so called safeguards are in this bill.
Such as too abuses of DNR.

Your post has made me still think on this issue so thank you for your input on it.

[arista]

Many are saying the Bill will pass on Friday
in Parliament.


Of course,
it is only for Terminally Ill People.
No one else.

And only England and Wales

[Crimson Dynamo]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GdPoXbKWYAEtv-y?format=jpg&name=small

sorry, what?

[Parmy]

As silly as this sounds.


If you think your family dont want to see you suffer, you must doubt you loved them enough.

[arista]

She spoke on GMBHD itv
saying if the vote
does not go her way
she will go to Switzerland.

then come back to haunt them?

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[Ammi]

…it’s a strange one, isn’t it…because it’s not only about choice, it’s about wealth, I would say…and who can afford assisted dying…if it’s going to be made choice, I wish it would be something available to all but I’m not thinking that it will be…

[arista]

…it’s a strange one, isn’t it…because it’s not only about choice, it’s about wealth, I would say…and who can afford assisted dying…if it’s going to be made choice, I wish it would be something available to all but I’m not thinking that it will be…


It looks like
it will go through Parliament today.

[joeysteele]

Hmm, While conflicted still.
I couldn't support this.

I'd love to be wrong and that it could be set up with the absolute 100% safeguards in place.
However I don't believe the safeguards could be perfect.
One error on this and that would be one too many.

The don't even get DNR rightly set up.

I could even see Doctors being prosecuted by families claiming their loved one would never have voluntarily agreed to this.

I honestly would hate to be an MP voting on this today.
For most their conscience must be being tested cruelly.

If it's passed and I think it will be.
I fear the slippery slope will not be far behind once it's implemented.
I never ever thought I'd agree with Ann Widdecombe on virtually anything.
Her opposition to this is rigid when she was on TV weeks ago talking about it.
I agree with her 100%

Like her, I don't believe there could be the perfect safeguards to ensure no wrongdoings or no errors.

[arista]

Esther stated
it is only those who are Officially Terminally Ill
that can get this

[joeysteele]

Esther stated
it is only those who are Officially Terminally Ill
that can get this

How do you determine the time left to live?
In EVERY case.

A relative of mine, not living in the UK admittedly was told they had 6 to 9 months to live.
They lived for 2 more years.
They saw a daughter have her first child.

I just don't think now the perfect safeguards can be put in place.
Certainly they're not, in my view, in this Kim Leadbeater bill.
Sorry but no way could I vote for this.

[arista]

With a Estimated 6 months left to live

Only

[smudgie]

The best bet is to assist yourself when you can.:shrug:
Mine is planned, however the timing is everything, this is where your doctor could come in handy.

[UserSince2005]

why she so desperate to change the law?
for attention?
changing this law will result in so many unjustified deaths
she should just shut up and just fork out the £50 for an easyjet flight to zuirich.

[Zizu]

.

[thesheriff443]

The best bet is to assist yourself when you can.:shrug:
Mine is planned, however the timing is everything, this is where your doctor could come in handy.

I’m amazed by your mindset and strength
What’s your secret of having no fear ?

[Zizu]

.

[arista]

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[joeysteele]

The useless ' I 'paper cannot even report this right.
Utterly useless and misleading press.

It's not 15 years since the last vote on this.
It is not even 10 years since.

It was defeated at second reading in 2015 in fact.

[arista]

We hope to get the Vote in
Parliament, at around 2:30PM.

Today

[arista]

The useless ' I paper cannot even report this right.
Utterly useless and misleading press.

It's not 15 years since the last vote on this.
It is not even 10 years since.

It was defeated at second reading in 2015 in fact.


Sure a Maths problem
very common

[arista]

Assisted dying bill vote

is in a min.

[joeysteele]

That's actually a smaller majority than I was expecting.
330/275.

[arista]

The Vote Won

Yes 330
No 275
Majority 55


Ref: SkyNewsHD Live

[Livia]

Good news. It must be ensured it is not abused.

[Ninastar]

I think I’m for it. We are able to put our pets out of misery when they become too old/too injured to live comfortably anymore.

It’s an act of love. No one wants to say goodbye. You wish that you could have forever together. But to help put someone/something out of pain and let them rest eternally… I think that’s somewhat beautiful

[Gusto Brunt]

Just gives the green light to mentally ill people who want to choose death over treatment for depression.

Also gives the go ahead to greedy relatives wanting to bump off their gran or grandad so they can get their inheritance early.

I do not agree with this bill.

[arista]

Just gives the green light to mentally ill people who want to choose death over treatment for depression.

Also gives the go ahead to greedy relatives wanting to bump off their gran or grandad so they can get their inheritance early.

I do not agree with this bill.


Rubbish

Terminally Ill Only

Not everyone is a Criminal

[Zizu]

Just gives the green light to mentally ill people who want to choose death over treatment for depression.

Also gives the go ahead to greedy relatives wanting to bump off their gran or grandad so they can get their inheritance early.

.

Jesus

I hope not .. there are some proper nasty people out there


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[joeysteele]

If this bill eventually becomes law then in my view it will be a very bad day for both Parliament and Country.

The more I've heard today has only hardened my view against it.
(This bill how it is anyhow.)

I think Danny Kruger MP made the best contribution to the debate.

[Gusto Brunt]

Jesus

I hope not .. there are some proper nasty people out there


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Yes and once is too many times.

[Gusto Brunt]

Rubbish

Terminally Ill Only

Not everyone is a Criminal

I saw a documentary once about this woman, not sure which country it was, but she was 22 years old and had severe depression. According to her country's laws, she could book in a room to die. Just like a hotel. But this was Hotel Death.

She only had three days left remaining until the deadly day but she suddenly realised death means it. No more her. :(

She realised life was worth living and she cancelled her day of death. Three years on, she's happy and has a boyfriend.

This UK Right to Die bill will be a sliding scale to death. All the death options availbable to this young woman, might be soon available in the UK.

[arista]

I saw a documentary once about this woman, not sure which country it was, but she was 22 years old and had severe depression. According to her country's laws, she could book in a room to die. Just like a hotel. But this was Hotel Death.

She only had three days left remaining until the deadly day but she suddenly realised death means it. No more her. :(

She realised life was worth living and she cancelled her day of death. Three years on, she's happy and has a boyfriend.

This UK Right to Die bill will be a sliding scale to death. All the death options availbable to this young woman, might be soon available in the UK.



It was Not The UK


Nothing to do with UK Laws

Get on Track will you , please

[MTVN]

If this bill eventually becomes law then in my view it will be a very bad day for both Parliament and Country.

The more I've heard today has only hardened my view against it.
(This bill how it is anyhow.)

I think Danny Kruger MP made the best contribution to the debate.

Yes that was really powerful from Kruger.

The thing is we know that humans are incredibly fallible. There's been so many scandals caused by a combination of human error, incompetence, neglect and malice. Knowing that, why should be trust them with dictating when someone should die? There's so many things we can't properly guard against: coercion, false diagnosis, corruption, changes of heart, an expansion of the measure etc.

It's really fascinating to see the split of parliamentarians in this.

Against the bill: Farage, Corbyn, Diane Abbott, David Lammy, Kemi Badenoch, Ed Davey and many others

For it: Starmer, Sunak, Reeves, Jeremy Hunt, the majority of Reform MPs and many others

If parliament is that divided on this issue across parliamentary lines then how can a governing party implement it in good faith

[MTVN]

It was Not The UK


Nothing to do with UK Laws

Get on Track will you , please

That is UK law 2034

[joeysteele]

Yes that was really powerful from Kruger.

The thing is we know that humans are incredibly fallible. There's been so many scandals caused by a combination of human error, incompetence, neglect and malice. Knowing that, why should be trust them with dictating when someone should die? There's so many things we can't properly guard against: coercion, false diagnosis, corruption, changes of heart, an expansion of the measure etc.

It's really fascinating to see the split of parliamentarians in this.

Against the bill: Farage, Corbyn, Diane Abbott, David Lammy, Kemi Badenoch, Ed Davey and many others

For it: Starmer, Sunak, Reeves, Jeremy Hunt, the majority of Reform MPs and many others

If parliament is that divided on this issue across parliamentary lines then how can a governing party implement it in good faith

Unfortunately if it gets through the Commons and then eventually the House of Lords.
Then it becomes law.

Your first paragraph is dead right and I don't believe it's possible to put in ALL the safeguards that would be needed.

There's DNR issue too that's become an issue now.
I couldn't have supported this today.
I believe it will sadly take us on a very slippery slope indeed.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Surely this opens up the death penalty debate now?

[Alf]

It's official. The MPs have voted in favour of state sponsored murder.

[AnnieK]

I dont know if I'm not understanding this....I thought this bill is based on the individual choosing to end their own life, not doctors making that decision? If a person is of sound mind and suffering from a terminal illness and makes their own choice as to when to die....what safeguarding is needed? It's an informed choice by an adult about their own treatment and death. There is nothing that I have seen that could be construed as state sponsored murder....or that is could be capitalised by unscrupulous family members. Or have I missed something?

[smudgie]

I’m amazed by your mindset and strength
What’s your secret of having no fear ?

Many moons ago I was told I had less than 6 months to live.
There was an op that could save me but it was just under 50% success rate, so, we decided death was better than the pain I was in but the op would give me a chance.
2 kids under 6 so I had to chance it.
I am not religious, but I suppose I have some spiritual belief, but more than anything else you have to think of those you will leave behind and make it easier for them.:shrug:

[arista]

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[arista]

The Online Only Paper

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[arista]

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[arista]

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[arista]

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[Ammi]

Many moons ago I was told I had less than 6 months to live.
There was an op that could save me but it was just under 50% success rate, so, we decided death was better than the pain I was in but the op would give me a chance.
2 kids under 6 so I had to chance it.
I am not religious, but I suppose I have some spiritual belief, but more than anything else you have to think of those you will leave behind and make it easier for them.:shrug:

…that’s the thing, isn’t it…with any surgery or procedure etc, the medical team have to inform us of ‘the worst case scenario’…because obviously it’s a possibility and we have to be aware of all risks…and then your mind thinks, oh my Lord…that’s what’s going to happen…but although it can do, it rarely does…obviously so glad that it didn’t for you…:hug:…but yeah, these things do leave the vein of, don’t stress etc…just be…

[arista]

Surely this opens up the death penalty debate now?


No it does not

[arista]

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[Ammi]

Wavering supporters of assisted dying bill ‘are not certain to vote it into law’…


A wavering group of MPs who backed parliament’s historic vote in favour of assisted dying may yet oppose its passage into law without further reassurances, the bill’s supporters are being warned, amid concerns that significant hurdles still remain.

MPs voted in favour of a change with a 55-vote majority on Friday, after a momentous five-hour debate over allowing assisted dying for terminally ill adults in England and Wales with less than six months to live.

However, Kim Leadbeater, the MP behind the legislation, is being urged to shore up support by immediately asking all those who backed her bill about their remaining concerns. The Observer has spoken to Tory and Labour MPs who backed the bill, but are reserving judgment before the final vote next year.

David Davis, the Tory former Brexit secretary, is among the group. He told the Observer that a proactive approach from the leading advocates of the bill could ensure any remaining doubts were overcome. “This does not have an overwhelming majority,” he said. “The second reading of the [1967] abortion bill went through by 223 to 29. I think a fair number of MPs voted on the premise I was making – that this is a bill which can be properly modified to make it right. We also had about 30 abstentions.

Related: MPs across divide call for better palliative care after assisted dying vote

“If 30 MPs changed their mind, it would go the other way. So if I were advising Kim Leadbeater, I would write to every single person who voted for the bill and say, ‘What are your concerns?’ Address it head-on.”

Concerns among waverers are focused on the safeguards around Leadbeater’s terminally ill adults (end of life) bill, as well as the risks of coercion. Others want doctors who approve the necessary medication to have a special licence. Under the terms of the proposed law, two doctors and a high court judge have to sign off any request for assisted dying. Additionally, Davis and others are suggesting further attempts to make it harder to extend the scope of the bill in the future.

An ally of Leadbeater said that the next phase of the bill, which will see it discussed and scrutinised by a cross-party group of MPs, would ensure all concerns were addressed. “All MPs will have the opportunity to feed in their views on how the bill can be improved,” they said.

“Kim will be listening hard to what they say and is very aware of the need for the committee to reflect opinion across the House and to take MPs with her over the next weeks and months. So those MPs who said in the debate that the bill wouldn’t be subject to real scrutiny and significant amendments will be proved wrong.”

Some Labour MPs also have political concerns about the bill. They said it risked being a significant distraction to Keir Starmer as he attempts to show his government is making a tangible difference to people’s lives. “This is going to take up a huge amount of time,” said a Labour MP who voted against the bill. “I find that a bit frustrating.”

Figures from across the Commons are now demanding that the bill be given as much time as it needs on the floor of the house next year. They pointed to the extensive time given to the 1967 Abortion Act originally proposed by the Liberal MP David Steel.

Meanwhile, Whitehall is beginning the work of drawing up impact assessments covering the proposals. There are concerns in government about the impact on the NHS. Health secretary Wes Streeting, who opposes the bill, has said it will have “resource implications” for the health service. Shabana Mahmood, the justice secretary, is also fiercely opposed.

Parliamentary sources said that the bill was likely to be studied by a committee of MPs from January until March, appearing in the Commons in late April at the earliest. Unusually, the committee will take oral and written evidence. MPs also want more time in the subsequent Commons debates on the issue.

Support in the House of Commons reflects the views of the public, according to the latest Opinium poll for the Observer. Almost two-thirds (64%) support making it legal for someone to seek “assisted dying” in the UK, with 19% opposed. Cross-party support is high, with 60% or more of voters from all five of the largest parties supporting new legislation.

The poll found that the best argument for a change in the law, according to the public, was that it might “offer dignity and relief for terminally ill people at the end of their life”. Some 57% saw this as the strongest argument, while 37% thought it was “offering people the right to choose how they die”. The biggest concern was that “vulnerable people might feel pressured to choose assisted dying”, with 40% identifying this as the strongest argument against.

[Ammi]

…the more I think about this, the less confidence I have in both a failing NHS system and a failing justice system to be such a huge part of these decisions…we are sadly living in a world and reality of ‘financial decisions’ above anything else, I feel…the whole thing feels just another step of an emotionally distancing society…

[joeysteele]

…the more I think about this, the less confidence I have in both a failing NHS system and a failing justice system to be such a huge part of these decisions…we are sadly living in a world and reality of ‘financial decisions’ above anything else, I feel…the whole thing feels just another step of an emotionally distancing society…

Exactly my feelings on this conscience tugging issue Ammi.

I am not convinced in any shape or form that this bill can eradicate any potential errors or coercion.
I go further, I don't think in the present climate economically in the Country, plus as you say, the NHS which needs many years to be made better again, plus the justice system too.
It's clear both NHS needs and also going through the justice system takes a fair bit of time
So how do they fast track all of this when the expectancy of life is only 6 months.

Plus too, IF it can all be fast tracked, then how is that giving the fullest due consideration as to time of both thinking about having assisted dying, actually then asking for it.
Plus then all the assessments being thoroughly, I stress THOROUGHLY done in full.
Then the medical sources approval plus having a Judge, with no knowledge of the person, really able to do a proper judgement on ending that individuals life.
IN less than 6 MONTHS.

However, no one can be with a person 24 hours a day, and hear every conversation with professionals, family, neighbours, friends or other patients.
So how can we be sure coercion can be totally ruled out.

There's people in care homes for instance, who get abused, however it's learned by accident usually not from them.
A thought just planted, could be something any terminal person may take on board.
Thinking they are worthless.

I could go on with so much I see wrong on this bill.
I hope those who voted against it and Danny Kruger MP, in my view is the leading light as to his views on this.
I hope they will demand extremely massive changes to this bill but I hope enough will vote it down in the future.
One person forced into this, would be one person too many.
I can really see families or others, accusing Doctors of unlawfully ending a person's life.

It's a very slippery road, this bill makes it even more slippery.
It CANNOT in my view be trusted and the really necessary safeguards not able to be put in place either.
There's good reasoning why this issue was voted down only 9+ years ago.
It couldn't be trusted then to be perfectly safeguarded and in my view, it cannot be now either.


Frankly Kim Leadbeater annoys me more, the way she presents it too.

[user104658]

I dont know if I'm not understanding this....I thought this bill is based on the individual choosing to end their own life, not doctors making that decision? If a person is of sound mind and suffering from a terminal illness and makes their own choice as to when to die....what safeguarding is needed? It's an informed choice by an adult about their own treatment and death. There is nothing that I have seen that could be construed as state sponsored murder....or that is could be capitalised by unscrupulous family members. Or have I missed something?

In absolute theory, the ability for terminally ill people (no recovery possibility) who are in severe pain and cannot be made comfortable to say "enough is enough" and let their life end is a good thing.

However for one that is very rarely necessary because in that case, what you need rather than assisted suicide, is simply the right to say "no further treatment beyond pain management" - in general the human body knows when to die, the issue when people end up with very prolonged suffering is generally because of being kept alive by modern medicine, and simply stopping life-prolonging treatment will result in death. People can already say no to further treatment.

And for another... well, the unfortunate reality of stretched health services under pressure and the social reality of families means that the system will 110% definitely be abused if it becomes a possibility. People don't want to "burden" their families, people don't want to be "a burden on the state". More sinisterly - people put a huge amount of stock and trust in what they're being told by their doctors, so yes it's an "individual choice" but the probability of that choice being heavily influenced is huge. The pressure on services is currently immense. If it becomes a possibility in law, it will be misused in a certain percentage of cases.

…the more I think about this, the less confidence I have in both a failing NHS system and a failing justice system to be such a huge part of these decisions…we are sadly living in a world and reality of ‘financial decisions’ above anything else, I feel…the whole thing feels just another step of an emotionally distancing society…

Exactly this Ammi it will become a numbers game like everything else. In an ideal, empathic, benevolent world the idea of offering peaceful death to those with truly no hope sounds like a wonderful thing... but the UK in 2024 is not that world.

[Ammi]

…Esther Rantzen’s daughter has said that Dignitas is no longer an option for her mother…sadly, her condition has deteriorated very quickly and travelling wouldn’t be possible…

[arista]

https://liveblog.digitalimages.sky/lc-images-sky/lcimg-1f09c0c2-5224-44b3-83c1-cb0f5ebf5e0f.png

[joeysteele]

I'm sorry but I still hope this is not voted for.

This bill has been mucked about with, with more changes to possibly come too.
Not a chance I'd support this particular bill nor vote for it obviously.

In fact Kim Leadbeater, the more she presents as to this bill, the even more less I like about it.

[arista]

The vote in Parliament is today
PM.

The Press can
Not call it?

[MTVN]

I think it will pass though with a decreased majority which just shows why it's not a good idea imo. If people who supported it a couple of months ago no longer think it's the right thing or can see that it's been weakened already then how can you properly future-proof it with adequate safeguards

[bots]

I think it will pass though with a decreased majority which just shows why it's not a good idea imo. If people who supported it a couple of months ago no longer think it's the right thing or can see that it's been weakened already then how can you properly future-proof it with adequate safeguards

i just don't think its a topic that won't be subject to differing opinion throughout a persons life dependent on the circumstances experienced around them.

My rather simplistic take is that it will be open to abuse, these things always are, and if it allows 1 murder to happen, it's 1 murder too many.

I may have had a different opinion prior to Shipman, but that genie is out of the box

[joeysteele]

They've just voted down clause 16 put by a Conservative MP
Which was extremely important.
As to people possibly feeling a burden etc, not being able to somehow get consideration for this under this bill.

I dislike this bill more and more.
Kim Leadbeater is really poor at her presentation of it.
It seems all things to secure more safety are being voted down.

I think it will pass but it will possibly become on of the most dangerous bills, in this form, that under any government has been brought in.
It's been botched and security after security being removed.

I can see Doctors, Nurses and others in all aspects of care, facing accusations of wrongdoing and even coercion in this.
Possibly even ending of careers and prosecutions.
Whatever the way forward as to this issue is, for me NO WAY, is this bill that way forward at all .
It's extremely badly constructed.

[joeysteele]

How many amendments has this Kim Leadbeater had to make to this bill.
That shows the and her poor original planning of it, however the amendments too, just seem to weaken the security and protection vital for any bill of this nature.

I'm really dismayed enough MPs are even thinking of supporting this never mind actually doing so.

[Livia]

I'm pleased. Obviously there needs to be safeguards in place, but I wouldn't let an animal suffer an excruciating death and so long as the person involved is clear and able to make the decision, I think it's a kindness to allow them to end their own life.

[joeysteele]

I think it will pass though with a decreased majority which just shows why it's not a good idea imo. If people who supported it a couple of months ago no longer think it's the right thing or can see that it's been weakened already then how can you properly future-proof it with adequate safeguards

I agree 100%

Plus too, I already know 3 people personally who were given a 6 months prognosis.
Two have passed the 6 months period and one is coming up to a year in July.
Doctors too, don't get the prognosis right.
Also none of those 3 people support this bill.

Although they'd support those that want to, going to Dignitas in Switzerland and also not having relatives who accompanied them there then accused of any criminal activity.

[Liam-]

If we don’t afford those who are suffering while they die slow, painful deaths, then who are we as people? We give animals far more decency in their end days than people and that’s just wrong, I couldn’t care less about religious or ‘moral’ objections, a person suffering should be able to decide between themselves, their family and their doctors about how they want their lives to end and families should not be held under threat of imprisonment if they decide to help a loved one end their suffering in a peaceful manner surrounded by those they love, it’s barbaric

[arista]

The Vote went through
now off to house of lords

[The Slim Reaper]

I support assisted dying, but I don't support this bill.

The attacks on the poor and disabled, coupled with the failure of safeguarding them in this bill, means it could be a very dark attempt to thin out the population of those the state considers a burden on the public finances.

[Cherie]

I support assisted dying, but I don't support this bill.

The attacks on the poor and disabled, coupled with the failure of safeguarding them in this bill, means it could be a very dark attempt to thin out the population of those the state considers a burden on the public finances.

Agree with this, while I support a bill for the terminally ill, I think this bill will be watered down over time and it will be abused for nefarious purposes

[arista]

Sadly the Old House of Lords
are not bothering to work today.........

So Monday

[Crimson Dynamo]

Murdo Fraser MSP



In just the last week, Parliament has voted to legalise the killing of unborn children up to
the point of birth, and to allow the assisted suicide of the frail and vulnerable.

Sad, sad times.

[arista]

BBCnewsHD
says it can take 4 years to come in.

So after a General Election.

[arista]

https://liveblog.digitalimages.sky/lc-images-sky/lcimg-ecc37195-46ed-4fa8-ac4e-e7eaddd9d53e.png

[arista]

https://liveblog.digitalimages.sky/lc-images-sky/lcimg-e9143e55-ed61-4cb4-ab2e-bca9cea789cc.jpeg

[arista]

https://liveblog.digitalimages.sky/lc-images-sky/lcimg-319c8d15-4959-4b81-98b8-bca28348309d.png

[The Slim Reaper]

Murdo Fraser MSP



In just the last week, Parliament has voted to legalise the killing of unborn children up to
the point of birth, and to allow the assisted suicide of the frail and vulnerable.

Sad, sad times.

Now that's not true, brother.

[Parmy]

Now that's not true, brother.


They've decriminalized abortion...it's legal to get an abortion already....s9 what's not true..


What's the truth pal?

[Ammi]

I support assisted dying, but I don't support this bill.

The attacks on the poor and disabled, coupled with the failure of safeguarding them in this bill, means it could be a very dark attempt to thin out the population of those the state considers a burden on the public finances.

…when there is so little investment put into the NHS and health as well as cut backs in safeguarding…when you combine those together, it’s very concerning as to how this is going to be actioned with confidence from the public…

[bots]

The bill is going to become law, but i still think the lords will push it back so that amendements can be applied. It's up to those in parliament to get their act together and get the amendments added

[joeysteele]

…when there is so little investment put into the NHS and health as well as cut backs in safeguarding…when you combine those together, it’s very concerning as to how this is going to be actioned with confidence from the public…

I totally agree Ammi.
I'm pleased the majority was heavily reduced although not enough.
However I see this taking a very slippery slope, with a lot of problems arising from it.

Let's see what the House of lords maybe does, this isn't a manifesto or government bill so they can send it back to the Commons.
Maybe they won't, however that's what I'm hoping for now.

I really don't like this particular bill at all.
It's NOT the way to really deal with such a serious and sensitive issue.

[Ammi]

I totally agree Ammi.
I'm pleased the majority was heavily reduced although not enough.
However I see this taking a very slippery slope, with a lot of problems arising from it.

Let's see what the House of lords maybe does, this isn't a manifesto or government bill so they can send it back to the Commons.
Maybe they won't, however that's what I'm hoping for now.

I really don't like this particular bill at all.
It's NOT the way to really deal with such a serious and sensitive issue.

…I’m thinking about those who don’t have loved ones and what decisions will be made for them …we have no faith in our government/in our authorities…maybe less than in any point in time …and yet….its a scary thought….

[arista]

House of Lords
Monday they will go over it.

Only for England and Wales

Mentally Disabled/ ill could be easy to kill off,
as once they are dead, you can not ask them......

One Top Psychiatrist Doctor stated.

[joeysteele]

…I’m thinking about those who don’t have loved ones and what decisions will be made for them …we have no faith in our government/in our authorities…maybe less than in any point in time …and yet….its a scary thought….

That is one the many things I don't like about this bill.
I find it extremely concerning.

[arista]

For the Old

Right to Die

Becomes Duty to Die

One Expert just stated live on tv news

[Ammi]

House of Lords
Monday they will go over it.

Only for England and Wales

Mentally Disabled/ ill could be easy to kill off,
as once they are dead, you can not ask them......

One Top Psychiatrist Doctor stated.

…and there we have it…

[arista]

…and there we have it…

Alarming
when I heard her say that

[arista]

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/ace/standard/976/cpsprodpb/d514/live/904befd0-4e19-11f0-86d5-3b52b53af158.jpg.webp

[arista]

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/ace/standard/976/cpsprodpb/b997/live/b54ed890-4e57-11f0-a466-d54f65b60deb.png.webp

[Glenn.]

If someone’s in constant pain, terminally ill, and wants to go on their own terms, I don’t see why they shouldn’t be allowed to. It’s their life – or what’s left of it – and forcing them to suffer just seems cruel.

But I also get why people worry about it being abused. Vulnerable people might feel pressured into it, and that’s a real risk. It needs proper rules in place so no one ends up being pushed into it for the wrong reasons.

So I’m for it, but only with strict safeguards.

[arista]

If someone’s in constant pain, terminally ill, and wants to go on their own terms, I don’t see why they shouldn’t be allowed to. It’s their life – or what’s left of it – and forcing them to suffer just seems cruel.

But I also get why people worry about it being abused. Vulnerable people might feel pressured into it, and that’s a real risk. It needs proper rules in place so no one ends up being pushed into it for the wrong reasons.

So I’m for it, but only with strict safeguards.


Yes that is what has been left wide open