In Iran & middle-eastern countries, Men are first, Women are second.

[nodisharmony]

There is a film called: "Not Without My Daughter"

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0102555/

If you ever watch this film, it will scare you to death, especially if you arrive in Iran and your husband or partner is like the character in the above film.

It is a true thing, that in Iran and other middle-eastern countries, it is a true fact, that Men are the superior and have the right to dictate over their women.

I think it is discraceful personally and after watching this film, based on a true story, that this is the case.


What do you think?






nodisharmony :angel:

[Lauren]

It's often the case, however, in Western society we get the same patriarchy in occupations and general moral ideas.

:shrug: I'm not really one to dictate what beliefs are "right" in other peoples religion.

[Stu]

Its common knowledge that many middle eastern countries are like this. But its completely accepted over their as normal culture. Your country was once like this too. Im obviously not saying its right but thats the accepted norm over their. Same as public hangings.

[nodisharmony]

Originally posted by Stu
Its common knowledge that many middle eastern countries are like this. But its completely accepted over their as normal culture. Your country was once like this too. Im obviously not saying its right but thats the accepted norm over their. Same as public hangings.

An Iranian man comes to visit Iran and brings his wife along for the holiday, along with their daughter.

His wife is an American citizen, but as they are in Iran, the Male Iranian has the power to keep there daughter in the country, as he is a man and legally can do that, because of that culture.

That is justice, yes??

So the middle-eastern countries are looked upon as being okay, in that respect?

Why do we hear about the constant trouble going on there then?

I don't hear about goings on in Spain so much:rolleyes:






nodisharmony :angel:

[Stu]

Originally posted by nodisharmony
Originally posted by Stu
Its common knowledge that many middle eastern countries are like this. But its completely accepted over their as normal culture. Your country was once like this too. Im obviously not saying its right but thats the accepted norm over their. Same as public hangings.

An Iranian man comes to visit Iran and brings his wife along for the holiday, along with their daughter.

His wife is an American citizen, but as they are in Iran, the Male Iranian has the power to keep there daughter in the country, as he is a man and legally can do that, because of that culture.

That is justice, yes??

So the middle-eastern countries are looked upon as being okay, in that respect?

Why do we hear about the constant trouble going on there then?

I don't hear about goings on in Spain so much:rolleyes:




nodisharmony :angel:
Im having a hard time grasping what point you are trying to make because I never agreed or disagreed with anything you said.

Im not saying its justice. Im not saying its right or wrong , im just saying thats the culture over their.



I don't hear about goings on in Spain so much:rolleyes:


Why would you?! Most britons will instantly recognise it as a holiday destination. Sure their is **** flying over their , but theirs **** flying everywhere.

I have no idea what this topic is aiming for. Obviously nobody is going to agree with the sexism in their culture so whats left to discuss?!

[Dr43%er]

The Spanish culture is similar to ours, that is why you don't hear much complaining. When things do differ then you do hear about it. Bull fighting?

[Jackie]

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::t humbs:

[spacebandit]

Originally posted by nodisharmony



I don't hear about goings on in Spain so much:rolleyes:

nodisharmony :angel:

Spain isn't exactly known as a major bastion of Islam so I'm not really suprised. :rolleyes:

I wonder why you aren't railing against Vatican City - they have seperate institutions for men and women - damn their black catholic hearts

[rex3]

See now when it comes to Jewish Critism its not OK, but against other religouns or culture it is OK.

Although I opposed the killings of innocents and the halacust it doesnt mean the the general concensus on Jews is that there innocent in there Politics.

And by the way, you want to hear about JEWISH FAMILY AND HOW MEN TREAT THERE WIVES, before you go on about stereotypes of others.

[Stu]

Originally posted by spacebandit
Originally posted by nodisharmony



I don't hear about goings on in Spain so much:rolleyes:

nodisharmony :angel:

Spain isn't exactly known as a major bastion of Islam so I'm not really suprised. :rolleyes:

I wonder why you aren't railing against Vatican City - they have seperate institutions for men and women - damn their black catholic hearts
Brings up a good point. Average retired Joe who likes to watch the news at five every evening is probably hates those strange ol' islamic folk who are against women but support a church that is completely against LGBT , which includes both men , women , and a bit of both :joker: , just not as outright or as violently [because the vatican generally tend to be sneaky bastards].

[Sticks]

What right have we to say that another culture is wrong?

This is just cultural imperialism and imposing our values on someone else.

[Stu]

Originally posted by Sticks
What right have we to say that another culture is wrong?

This is just cultural imperialism and imposing our values on someone else.
Which , god forbid , would be a first for jolly ol' England :rolleyes:.

I agree with what your saying though.

[nodisharmony]

Originally posted by Stu

Im having a hard time grasping what point you are trying to make because I never agreed or disagreed with anything you said.

Im not saying its justice. Im not saying its right or wrong , Im just saying thats the culture over their.

Agreeing with what is correct is good:thumbs:

Cultures exist, but when injustice happens and a child is involved, and that child get's removed from it's American mother, because the father is an Iranian, and the Man is the boss in that middle-eastern country, it is unfair.

In serious debates section, there is plenty of unfair an corrupt situations pointed out and debated upon, but naturally, we can't change it.

Originally posted by Stu

Why would you?! Most britons will instantly recognise it as a holiday destination. Sure their is **** flying over their , but theirs **** flying everywhere.

I have no idea what this topic is aiming for. Obviously nobody is going to agree with the sexism in their culture so whats left to discuss?!

Spain was just an example, nothing more...

Iran, Iraq, Libya, I am sick of hearing this on the news....:yuk:

Maybe Gordon Brown can make the right decision over Iraq..

I agree about the anti-sexism view... which is what this thread is about.







nodisharmony :angel:

[Dr43%er]

If it is about anti sexism, why point it directly at Moslem country's?

[Stu]

Originally posted by nodisharmony
Originally posted by Stu

Im having a hard time grasping what point you are trying to make because I never agreed or disagreed with anything you said.

Im not saying its justice. Im not saying its right or wrong , Im just saying thats the culture over their.

Agreeing with what is correct is good:thumbs:


You have a mighty talent for secretly applauding yourself mid sentence.

[easypeasy]

Originally posted by Sticks
What right have we to say that another culture is wrong?

This is just cultural imperialism and imposing our values on someone else. with that kind of attitude Hitler and his successor's would would be running the whole show by now.

[easypeasy]

Originally posted by Dr43%er
If it is about anti sexism, why point it directly at Moslem country's? Maybe because its not "just a bit of sexism"......
It's stoning pregnant women in the street.
http://www.petitiononline.com/Malak/petition.html

[Dr43%er]

I quote
"I agree about the anti-sexism view... which is what this thread is about."

[spacebandit]

Originally posted by nodisharmony
Spain was just an example, nothing more...



I agree about the anti-sexism view... which is what this thread is about.







nodisharmony :angel:

then why haven't started a thread slating the catholics the same way as you did here ?

A patriarchal system where women are deemed subservient to man

No woman can hold as high an office as a man
Men make decisions affecting womens lives everyday and the women must submit to that will or else hells fires are a-waiting

So where is the anti-catholic thread in the same vein as this ?

or do you have some ulterior motive for using this reasoning to attack islam ?

[nodisharmony]

Originally posted by Dr43%er
If it is about anti sexism, why point it directly at Moslem country's?

My opening post explains that.

Saying that middle-eastern countries look at Men first, which is unfair, even though it is their culture.






nodisharmony :angel:

[Shaun]

Originally posted by rex3
See now when it comes to Jewish Critism its not OK, but against other religouns or culture it is OK.

Although I opposed the killings of innocents and the halacust it doesnt mean the the general concensus on Jews is that there innocent in there Politics.

And by the way, you want to hear about JEWISH FAMILY AND HOW MEN TREAT THERE WIVES, before you go on about stereotypes of others.

Iran's human rights isn't religion or culture - it's foreign law.

[spacebandit]

Originally posted by nodisharmony
Originally posted by Dr43%er
If it is about anti sexism, why point it directly at Moslem country's?

My opening post explains that.

Saying that middle-eastern countries look at Men first, which is unfair, even though it is their culture.

nodisharmony :angel:

As do the catholics so where is your outrage ?

[nodisharmony]

Originally posted by spacebandit


then why haven't started a thread slating the catholics the same way as you did here ?

A patriarchal system where women are deemed subservient to man

No woman can hold as high an office as a man
Men make decisions affecting womens lives everyday and the women must submit to that will or else hells fires are a-waiting

So where is the anti-catholic thread in the same vein as this ?

or do you have some ulterior motive for using this reasoning to attack islam ?

I have pointed out how Men in these middle-eastern countries, are looked upon as much more important than a woman is.

I think that men & women should be treated equally. That is sexist and discrimainating a particular sex. Something that most would agree is unfair and should be illegal, but isn't

Regarding "Catholics", there are other issues, other than the one you point out, but that is another debate for another day and time. Start one up, Spacebandit...

Your comment about women, well, what about "Condoleezza Rice?"

Also, your comment is'nt very nice either:nono:






nodisharmony :angel:

[easypeasy]

Originally posted by bugsy2301
Originally posted by rex3
See now when it comes to Jewish Critism its not OK, but against other religouns or culture it is OK.

Although I opposed the killings of innocents and the halacust it doesnt mean the the general concensus on Jews is that there innocent in there Politics.

And by the way, you want to hear about JEWISH FAMILY AND HOW MEN TREAT THERE WIVES, before you go on about stereotypes of others.

Iran's human rights isn't religion or culture - it's foreign law. It's Shariah law, which is religious doctrine.

[spacebandit]

Originally posted by nodisharmony
I have pointed out how Men in these middle-eastern countries, are looked upon as much more important than a woman is.

I think that men & women should be treated equally. That is sexist and discrimainating a particular sex. Something that most would agree is unfair and should be illegal, but isn't

Regarding "Catholics", there are other issues, other than the one you point out, but that is another debate for another day and time. Start one up, Spacebandit...

Your comment about women, well, what about "Condoleezza Rice?"

Also, your comment is'nt very nice either:nono:

nodisharmony :angel:

Strange then that in your search for comments on "equality" in your original post you single out Islam - yet when it comes to the subjugation and oppression of women the catholic church is equally culpable.

It begs the question - why did you concentrate on islam ?

Though

I already know the answer.....

and what about Condoleeza Rice ? - other than as another example of bait and switch where does she fit into the scheme of your specious attack ?

[spacebandit]

Originally posted by nodisharmony
Originally posted by Dr43%er
If it is about anti sexism, why point it directly at Moslem country's?

My opening post explains that.

Saying that middle-eastern countries look at Men first, which is unfair, even though it is their culture.

nodisharmony :angel:

As does The Holy See.....yet not a word of condemnation from you, no threads about it from you...

[nodisharmony]

Originally posted by spacebandit
Originally posted by nodisharmony
Originally posted by Dr43%er
If it is about anti sexism, why point it directly at Moslem country's?

My opening post explains that.

Saying that middle-eastern countries look at Men first, which is unfair, even though it is their culture.

nodisharmony :angel:

As does The Holy See.....yet not a word of condemnation from you, no threads about it from you...

Do I look like someone who has to bow down to the:rolleyes:

Condemning the ones who do wrongs is easy to do, but looking for an answer and a change in law and rules is a positive, if change can happen in time.

Some thing positively and look for a way through these pathetic situations, which come from that word called "Religion".

Being a protestant in England and living a life without sex-discrimation is better.

Look at the damage which get's done by the hatred of one or another.







nodisharmony :angel:

[spacebandit]

Originally posted by nodisharmony
Originally posted by spacebandit
Originally posted by nodisharmony
Originally posted by Dr43%er
If it is about anti sexism, why point it directly at Moslem country's?

My opening post explains that.

Saying that middle-eastern countries look at Men first, which is unfair, even though it is their culture.

nodisharmony :angel:

As does The Holy See.....yet not a word of condemnation from you, no threads about it from you...

Do I look like someone who has to bow down to the:rolleyes:

Condemning the ones who do wrongs is easy to do, but looking for an answer and a change in law and rules is a positive, if change can happen in time.

Some thing positively and look for a way through these pathetic situations, which come from that word called "Religion".

Being a protestant in England and living a life without sex-discrimation is better.

Look at the damage which get's done by the hatred of one or another.

nodisharmony :angel:

Weasel out of it as much as you want

You start a thread attacking arabs for doing the same in their religion as the european-centric catholics do, yet not a word against catholics who also treat women as lesser than men.

Yes "condemning the ones who do wrongs is easy to do" - but you started a thread to condemn middle easterners who follow islam whilst ignoring the same attributes within european catholicism whereby women are also treated lesser than men.

You even tried to explain yourself with a pathetic and nonsensical reference to Spain...

But then catholicism and christianity in general has even gone so far as to standardise its figurehead as a white man -ignoring geographical and ethnic truths.

So I'm not at all suprised that you only attack one particular group

[nodisharmony]

Originally posted by spacebandit


Weasel out of it as much as you want

You start a thread attacking arabs for doing the same in their religion as the european-centric catholics do, yet not a word against catholics who also treat women as lesser than men.

Yes "condemning the ones who do wrongs is easy to do" - but you started a thread to condemn middle easterners who follow islam whilst ignoring the same attributes within european catholicism whereby women are also treated lesser than men.

You even tried to explain yourself with a pathetic and nonsensical reference to Spain...

But then catholicism and christianity in general has even gone so far as to standardise its figurehead as a white man -ignoring geographical and ethnic truths.

So I'm not at all suprised that you only attack one particular group

Weaseling out of what:puzzled:

I have started a thread about how middle-eastern Men are treated No.1 & Women are No.2

It doesn't matter whether the Woman is from the middle-east or not. I have explained that point in detail.

I am NOT attacking Arabs. I haven't even used that word.

There are many Arabs in the middle-east, what of it?

I am quite happy to debate with yourself and others in a thread all about "Catholic's" and this particular issue may be brought up, as well as Bombing in Ireland and the I.R.A and sexual issues, like no-safe-sex and the other stuff.... But this is about Men & Women in the middle-east. The thread title speaks for itself.

Glad I cleared that up:rolleyes:

__________________________________________
I spoke about "Spain" as it was a simple example. I could have said "Lichenstein?"


__________________________________________
Attacking a group is what people do.

I look and hear people from other countries slagging off English people, in regards to football hooliganism. Saying that English people are the worst?

I know that Religion is once again on the table again and persons from the middle-eastern Men have chosen to look at Women in a dimmer light, when it comes to who is in charge of who.

The Men have control of the children you know.

I don't make these observations lightly and if a Woman from England falls in love with a Man from the middle-east, this is something which more than likely will occur.

This is fact and I point out the fact, that is the fact and do you get the fact and understand the fact.

The facts speak for themselves....

Do you agree with their point of view?







nodisharmony :angel:

[natjake2504]

i am sorry but this is something i do NOT beleive in.
Everyone is equal if you are women man black white have money dont have money so on and so on - i can not be doing with anyone who thinks they are above anyone else - what gives them the right!!!!!!!!!!1

[Stu]

Originally posted by natalia2504
what gives them the right!!!!!!!!!!1
Their own government.

[Lauren]

I don't believe in it, personally. But I can understand why countries follow this way of life - it's been the case for thousands of years that women are subordinate to men (including within Christianity, remember, Eve came from Adam's spare rib and was represented as the temptress in the story. Also, Virgin Mary presents a stereotypical stay-at-home innocent representation of women).

Religion can act as a conservative force which as well as initiating social change can bring about change to go back into the traditional past. An example of this in Iran was in the mid 70's when a revolution was occurring in Iran and they were getting more technology and women more equal rights. This didn't follow with Shariah law and so Ayatollah Khomenei took the country back to tradition - removing females rights and instilling firm (and sometimes extremist) laws.

This also happens in many other states and religions. For example, in some middle eastern countries they practice female circumcision to remove a clitoris so that females can't experience pleasure. In Orthodox Judaism the female isn't allowed to carry or touch the Torah... so many examples.

[rex3]

i think one day power to woman in all countries will come equal to men, just like here in the UK has, just some countries, in terms of culture are slower. Because of the lack of catalysm such as Technology, Economy and what have you. Its not really religoun coz all religouns subjected woman, countries of the same religoun differ such as Egypt and Saudi, US and UK ...

[nodisharmony]

Originally posted by rex3
i think one day power to woman in all countries will come equal to men, just like here in the UK has, just some countries, in terms of culture are slower. Because of the lack of catalysm such as Technology, Economy and what have you. Its not really religoun coz all religouns subjected woman, countries of the same religoun differ such as Egypt and Saudi, US and UK ...

We are talking thousands of years then?

Go up to an Arab, Iranian, whatever from the middle-east and tell them that a Woman is in charge & they will smirk and know you are wrong.

This is something which is injust but the way they feel towards the opposite sex.

All this comes from religion.

I anyone get's a chance, watch the film "Not without my daughter" with Sally Field and it just goes to show how Iranian's live and their belief's and religion and the way many treat their women.

This is a sad fact and I think that many of us, in fact, all of us should agree, that this is a wicked ideal for them.

It makes any woman think twice about dating someone from a middle-eastern country, even if they live here now.






nodisharmony :angel:

[rex3]

Originally posted by nodisharmony
Originally posted by rex3
i think one day power to woman in all countries will come equal to men, just like here in the UK has, just some countries, in terms of culture are slower. Because of the lack of catalysm such as Technology, Economy and what have you. Its not really religoun coz all religouns subjected woman, countries of the same religoun differ such as Egypt and Saudi, US and UK ...

We are talking thousands of years then?

Go up to an Arab, Iranian, whatever from the middle-east and tell them that a Woman is in charge & they will smirk and know you are wrong.

This is something which is injust but the way they feel towards the opposite sex.

All this comes from religion.

I anyone get's a chance, watch the film "Not without my daughter" with Sally Field and it just goes to show how Iranian's live and their belief's and religion and the way many treat their women.

This is a sad fact and I think that many of us, in fact, all of us should agree, that this is a wicked ideal for them.

It makes any woman think twice about dating someone from a middle-eastern country, even if they live here now.


nodisharmony :angel:

Watching a film then grouping a whole community as one is the most ***** thing, im getting attacked by Lauren, claiming im generalising people. yet look at you. nothing is said

[Tanser_Man]

I think any ethnicity/ religion that makes another human being inferior based purely on sex, whether it is social accepted in there country or not, is a disgusting act of ignorance.

[spacebandit]

Originally posted by nodisharmony

I anyone get's a chance, watch the film "Not without my daughter" with Sally Field and it just goes to show how Iranian's live and their belief's and religion and the way many treat their women.

This is a sad fact and I think that many of us, in fact, all of us should agree, that this is a wicked ideal for them.

It makes any woman think twice about dating someone from a middle-eastern country, even if they live here now.

nodisharmony :angel:

Oh yeah - lets make a socio-ethnic policy based on a piece of 2nd grade trash.

You keep bringing this film up as though its a documentary - its a wildly innacurate Hallmark special.

Lets consider a movie that has a scene with a Moslem family celebrating christmas - yes I've read the book and know the reasoning behind the scene, but that is not how it is presented in the movie, but even in the book the scene is such a contradiction it is laughable.

A film where a main character states that Iranians have to take a shower after sex - what a load of utter garbage - the film is full of blanket anti-iranian propoganda

Also in Iran, when it comes to the domestic household , though it may seem a contradiction the woman is the "boss" - easily verifiable to anyone who has ever been in the company of real Iranians, normal everyday Joe Public iranians and not the bogeymen version created in racist propoganda and spread about by the ignorant.

Betty Mahmoody's story deserves a proper re-telling because the film version is shameful, the husband was worse than portrayed - believe it or not, and Betty herself was helped out of the country by ......errrrr....other Iranians, yes Iranian law is at fault becasue of its treatment of women - but do not keep holding up "Not Without My Daughter" as gospel when you are clearly unaware of a fuller picture of the circumstances surrounding this admittedly brave woman. the fullstory is not a condemnation of the Iranian people, but a condemnation of one man and the way he prevented his wife from seeking legal recourse - even in Iran at that time , she had legal recourse

In reality it appears Betty Mahmoody's husband was a total scumbag - because he was Iranian ?, no, because some men are in their treatment of their wives , incidentally there is a documentary called Ilman tytärtäni which tells the husbands side of the story, and yes he is indeed a total scumbag.

Incidentally, one thing the film omits, as it is cr*p, and which the book itself mentions is that her husband was acting contrary to Iranian law in detaining the child, who was actually an American citizen, against her mothers wishes.

Even now, the vast majority of Iranians are not the demons being portrayed in the west - their leaders may be warmongering savages, but then - so are ours.

[nodisharmony]

Originally posted by rex3


Watching a film then grouping a whole community as one is the most ***** thing, Im getting attacked by Lauren, claiming Im generalising people. yet look at you. nothing is said

There is a big difference between what myself and yourself is saying.

You have an axe to grind against Jews and Zionists and the (S) word.

What I am doing is pointing out something which has been known by many for a long, long time.

It is a true fact, that these middle-eastern countries, do look at Women being 2nd and Men being 1st.

It is fact and the film I mentioned is based on true fact, it is true and I disagree that men should be more important than women. That is sexist and also unfair.

I don't see you running towards agreeing that it is unjust and unfair, do I?

What you prefer to do, is twist it to make it sound, that I am targeting a whole group of people for something which is perfectly innocent.

I don't call sexism innocent!! I don't call any of this just in any way, but it will remain that way, just like your gripe against Zionists.

But we debate it, don't we:rolleyes:






nodisharmony :angel:

[Lauren]

It's true that Middle Eastern countries often look at women as second class citizens. However, it's also true that Western countries do the exact same thing. Like I said in my previous post in mainstream trinitarian Christianity the woman is presented as being either a temptress or a traditional virgin housewife role. Also, Eve was made from Adam's spare rib - hardly fair :laugh:

Not only religion-based but society based ideas are also patriarchal such as the proverbial glass ceiling in occupations and of course the taboo surrounding women and sex concerning stricter morals.

[nodisharmony]

Originally posted by spacebandit


Oh yeah - lets make a socio-ethnic policy based on a piece of 2nd grade trash.

You keep bringing this film up as though its a documentary - its a wildly innacurate Hallmark special.

Lets consider a movie that has a scene with a Moslem family celebrating christmas - yes I've read the book and know the reasoning behind the scene, but that is not how it is presented in the movie, but even in the book the scene is such a contradiction it is laughable.

A film where a main character states that Iranians have to take a shower after sex - what a load of utter garbage - the film is full of blanket anti-iranian propoganda

Also in Iran, when it comes to the domestic household , though it may seem a contradiction the woman is the "boss" - easily verifiable to anyone who has ever been in the company of real Iranians, normal everyday Joe Public iranians and not the bogeymen version created in racist propoganda and spread about by the ignorant.

Betty Mahmoody's story deserves a proper re-telling because the film version is shameful, the husband was worse than portrayed - believe it or not, and Betty herself was helped out of the country by ......errrrr....other Iranians, yes Iranian law is at fault becasue of its treatment of women - but do not keep holding up "Not Without My Daughter" as gospel when you are clearly unaware of a fuller picture of the circumstances surrounding this admittedly brave woman. the fullstory is not a condemnation of the Iranian people, but a condemnation of one man and the way he prevented his wife from seeking legal recourse - even in Iran at that time , she had legal recourse

In reality it appears Betty Mahmoody's husband was a total scumbag - because he was Iranian ?, no, because some men are in their treatment of their wives , incidentally there is a documentary called Ilman tytärtäni which tells the husbands side of the story, and yes he is indeed a total scumbag.

Incidentally, one thing the film omits, as it is cr*p, and which the book itself mentions is that her husband was acting contrary to Iranian law in detaining the child, who was actually an American citizen, against her mothers wishes.

Even now, the vast majority of Iranians are not the demons being portrayed in the west - their leaders may be warmongering savages, but then - so are ours.

I have never done this before Spacebandit

But that post of yours is totally brilliant.:thumbs:

The wording, the emphasis, the research and on that point alone, I won't criticise your great display within.

It is almost unbeatable.
_______________________________________

All I will say, is, that even though this particular story may be dramatised in such a way, which looks much worse than things actually are, it is a true fact that Men are still more important than a Woman in these middle-eastern countries.

If the percentage was 2% okay and 98% bad, it just isn't enough.

But like I said, your post there is brilliant......

and that is a first from me, and you know:wink:






nodisharmony :angel:

[rex3]

its stereotyping just like all jews control the world