Darts to bring back the walk on Women Assistants

[arista]

https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/other-sports/darts/walk-on-girls-pdc-wsdt-33541921


Like on Boxing.


Great more Ladies can get work.


It was halted, back in 2019

[user104658]

What happened? Did they discover that not many people want to watch fat bastards drinking beer and throwing darts on telly if its not sugared up with some objectification?

[arista]

What happened? Did they discover that not many people want to watch fat bastards drinking beer and throwing darts on telly if its not sugared up with some objectification?


It needs the Sparkle back.


This is great, for women to return to their jobs

[Beso]

What happened? Did they discover that not many people want to watch fat bastards drinking beer and throwing darts on telly if its not sugared up with some objectification?

You're stuck in the 80s

[Cherie]

What happened? Did they discover that not many people want to watch fat bastards drinking beer and throwing darts on telly if its not sugared up with some objectification?

Darts is not like that any more, its a very highly paid sport :laugh: Surprised at the fat shaming QB :nono:

[Nicky91]

yes pls, bring back walk on queen Hazel O'Sullivan :flutter:

[arista]

yes pls, bring back walk on queen Hazel O'Sullivan :flutter:


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FGAed5fXMAImDjt?format=jpg&name=small

[MTVN]

Bit of an odd decision really given that darts popularity has only increased in recent years so it's not like cancelling the walk on girls did that any harm

This is only for the seniors tour though it seems, not for any of the main tournaments

[user104658]

You're stuck in the 80s

I'm not.

Apparently Darts is, though, or they wouldn't be bringing back "ogling 20 year olds" as an integral part of the sport, would they.

[user104658]

This is only for the seniors tour though it seems

:skull: :skull: :skull:

Of COURSE it's for the seniors. FFS :joker: you couldn't make it up. Genuinely repulsive.

[user104658]

Darts is not like that any more, its a very highly paid sport :laugh: Surprised at the fat shaming QB :nono:

Where did I say it's not highly paid?

It can be highly popular and very well funded, whilst still being aimed at sad gammons who want to see some boobies before they watch other highly-paid gammons playing a pub sport over the top of their beer tin.

These things are not mutually exclusive.

[Alf]

I'll get me socks ready.

[Beso]

I'm not.

Apparently Darts is, though, or they wouldn't be bringing back "ogling 20 year olds" as an integral part of the sport, would they.

Oh you are so.

[Cherie]

Where did I say it's not highly paid?

It can be highly popular and very well funded, whilst still being aimed at sad gammons who want to see some boobies before they watch other highly-paid gammons playing a pub sport over the top of their beer tin.

These things are not mutually exclusive.

Have you always been a snob? :laugh: Enjoying a beer is not the end of the world you know, the Darts crowd seem more into dressing up than drinking though

[Alf]

Oh you are so.Is "gay" the word you're looking for?

[Mystic Mock]

What happened? Did they discover that not many people want to watch fat bastards drinking beer and throwing darts on telly if its not sugared up with some objectification?

Tbf Luke Littler has made the Sport be more mainstream than ever before.

I don't know what's caused the decision to be reversed tbh.

[Mystic Mock]

Where did I say it's not highly paid?

It can be highly popular and very well funded, whilst still being aimed at sad gammons who want to see some boobies before they watch other highly-paid gammons playing a pub sport over the top of their beer tin.

These things are not mutually exclusive.

Not all Darts players are Gammons.:joker:

You're being really bad for stereotyping.

[thesheriff443]

As a straight man I have absolutely no problem in saying I find women of all ages attractive

[Cherie]

Apparently the darts ladies are delighted to get their jobs back, they say they bring glamour and fun to the walk on....who am I to argue, if they dont care and they are getting well paid for it, go for it, its a free choice, its not like they are being pimped out

[Cherie]

Not all Darts players are Gammons.:joker:

You're being really bad for stereotyping.

QB is one of the worst, but only stereotypes white men, given he is one himself its all rather odd self sabotage

[Mystic Mock]

QB is one of the worst, but only stereotypes white men, given he is one himself its all rather odd self sabotage

Tbf to QB, negative stereotypes do exist for a reason, and it's normally because of stuff that's happened in the past within certain communities.

However I do think it's best to avoid such stereotypes in a serious discussion, especially considering we're only talking about women choosing to work in a position where they have to dress in a way that's deemed sexy.

If women don't want the role, they can avoid it.

Quantum Boy

[user104658]

Tbf to QB, negative stereotypes do exist for a reason, and it's normally because of stuff that's happened in the past within certain communities.

However I do think it's best to avoid such stereotypes in a serious discussion, especially considering we're only talking about women choosing to work in a position where they have to dress in a way that's deemed sexy.

If women don't want the role, they can avoid it.

Quantum Boy

The objectification of women (and if you do want to extend it to Hollywood, men as well) is insidious and damaging and saying that "the ones who don't want to do it can avoid it" is reductive, lacks insight and ultimately IMO comes purely from a place of defensiveness.

I'm stereotyping Darts because instead of leaning into being seen as a more professional/respectable sport, they're choosing to go back to the old ways of trotting half-naked ladies out to "pretty up" their events. Is the sport not engaging enough to stand on its own merits? People are arguing hard that it is. Without then questioning why they're doing this :idc:.

And then it transpired that it's only for the seniors :joker: :skull:. Slimey as ****, I have literally no issue at all with saying that 50+ year old men who want 20 year olds with their boobs out to make the dart more entertaining to them are gross, perving trogs. Straight in the bin. The ones who say "Err we don't need that in our sport thanks, gross" can stay. Where's the stereotyping?

[user104658]

QB is one of the worst, but only stereotypes white men, given he is one himself its all rather odd self sabotage

See above Cherie - it's not "stereotyping" to point out that the people who want and are OK with this are slimy old bastards who should be on a leash at all times around women and children. It's not about "everyone".

If Darts doesn't want to be seen as a sport for letching nonces, they probably shouldn't use "young women's boobies" as an advertising boon for their seniors tournaments. JFC.

[user104658]

Is "gay" the word you're looking for?

I think it's only you and Parmy on this forum who still think "being gay" is some sort of insult Alf. I'll reiterate as I always do; I'm not gay, I've very happily been in a long-term heterosexual relationship for decades, but I don't find "getting called gay :hehe: " offensive. You're like a wee boy in shorts in the school playground 30 years ago with these insults. And apparently it's me stuck in the 80's :joker:.

[Beso]

Quantum Boy

Shall we stop the glamorous assistants as well, like rachel or carol from countdown. Shall we stop the glamorous weather girls also? Cause you can class it as girls with their boobs out all you want but that's not what it is at all.. its 2 glamorous ladies, dressed in nice dresses, walking in front of the darts player to lead them onto the stage. They will have a sponsors banner draped over their shoulders. No tits on show, no twerking, and no fanny thrusts either...you shouldnt have a problem with this, you see more on the streets during pride or notting hill where all the gays and black perverts can ogle away without criticism from prudish men.

[Cherie]

See above Cherie - it's not "stereotyping" to point out that the people who want and are OK with this are slimy old bastards who should be on a leash at all times around women and children. It's not about "everyone".

If Darts doesn't want to be seen as a sport for letching nonces, they probably shouldn't use "young women's boobies" as an advertising boon for their seniors tournaments. JFC.

If you ever watched Darts the walk on girls are dressed very modestly, if women want to do it, not sure what your issue is tbh?

[user104658]

Quantum Boy

Shall we stop the glamorous assistants as well, like rachel or carol from countdown. Shall we stop the glamorous weather girls also? Cause you can class it as girls with their boobs out all you want but that's not what it is at all.. its 2 glamorous ladies, dressed in nice dresses, walking in front of the darts player to lead them onto the stage. They will have a sponsors banner draped over their shoulders. No tits on show, no twerking, and no fanny thrusts either...you shouldnt have a problem with this, you see more on the streets during pride or notting hill where all the gays and black perverts can ogle away without criticism from prudish men.

Buuuullshiiitttt :joker:

Also where on earth have you got the idea that I'm "OK with" the dicks-on-parade nonsense that's completely taken over (and ruined) Pride events?

[user104658]

If you ever watched Darts the walk on girls are dressed very modestly, if women want to do it, not sure what your issue is tbh?

Why are they there, Cherie? What is the reason for having them there. Why are they always female. Why are they always young. What does it achieve. Who is it for. If you can answer in any way that isn't "objectification of women, for the eyes of men" I'm all ears. I've seen no reasoning for it being anything but that, and "aww it's not that bad let them do what they want they actually enjoy it and make money!" is not a reasonable substitute as a justification.

[Beso]

Buuuullshiiitttt :joker:



Also where on earth have you got the idea that I'm "OK with" the dicks-on-parade nonsense that's completely taken over (and ruined) Pride events?Bet you insist your mrs wears a full burkha when she goes out, cause there is nothing wrong with this look.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240829/a5704afde993cd5ab0127b3dd77ecf7e.jpg

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

[user104658]

Bet you insist your mrs wears a full burkha when she goes out, cause there is nothing wrong with this look.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240829/a5704afde993cd5ab0127b3dd77ecf7e.jpg

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

There' nothing wrong with the dresses. There's something fundamentally wrong with needlessly exhibiting young women in a sport aimed at middle-aged men. This should not be a hard concept to grasp but I won't pretend why some people "don't get it". Too busy with their hand in their pants watching women young enough to be their daughters drag out the old Darts Farts for literally no reason whatsoever that anyone can give other than that "they're nice for men to look at".

https://i.imgur.com/YovCH3f.jpeg

Can we please stop pretending to not know what we're looking at here? Come on now :joker:. Don't be so f'ing silly.

[Niamh.]

There' nothing wrong with the dresses. There's something fundamentally wrong with needlessly exhibiting young women in a sport aimed at middle-aged men. This should not be a hard concept to grasp but I won't pretend why some people "don't get it". Too busy with their hand in their pants watching women young enough to be their daughters drag out the old Darts Farts for literally no reason whatsoever that anyone can give other than that "they're nice for men to look at".

https://i.imgur.com/YovCH3f.jpeg

Can we please stop pretending to not know what we're looking at here? Come on now :joker:. Don't be so f'ing silly.

My issue with it in sports in particular is women in sport are already fighting to be taken seriously in sport as it is so i think having women as decorations around the men in a sport makes it even harder for the female competitors to be taken seriously. I'm not going to stop watching the sports because of it (not talking specifically about Darts here as I rarely watch Darts but I suppose UFC/MMA ring girls comes to mind) but I don't love it.

[Beso]

Not everyone sees the world via perverted eyes...its only you who instantly thinks perverted thoughts when you see these ladies.

And to describe it as a middle aged mans sport is ridiculous considering luke littler isnt even 20 yet. Infact I doubt more than 1 of the top ten is over 35.

You are talking about a sport you know sod all about, its love audience will have an average age of 25.

[Niamh.]

Not everyone sees the world via perverted eyes...its only you who instantly thinks perverted thoughts when you see these ladies.

And to describe it as a middle aged mans sport is ridiculous considering luke littler isnt even 20 yet. Infact I doubt more than 1 of the top ten is over 35.

You are talking about a sport you know sod all about, its love audience will have an average age of 25.

That's not true

Adult darts fans tend to be older: just 18% are aged 18-34 compared to 27% of the general sports-watching population, while 45% (vs. 40% of sports fans) are over 55

https://business.yougov.com/content/48382-luke-littler-loses-but-could-he-expand-the-audience-for-professional-darts

[Beso]

Over 55s have more time to watch telly than the 20 somethings. The live audience at the events will be predominantly under the age of being middle aged.

[user104658]

Not everyone sees the world via perverted eyes...its only you who instantly thinks perverted thoughts when you see these ladies.


I'll just ask what I asked above;

1) Why are they there?

2) Who is it for?

If you can reasonably answer those two things in a way that is at all reaslistic, and doesn't boil down to "to be nice to look at", "for men" then that's the start of a conversation. Until then you're just shouting "no you're wrong!". If I'm wrong give me an alternative, realistic, explanation.

[Niamh.]

Over 55s have more time to watch telly than the 20 somethings. The live audience at the events will be predominantly under the age of being middle aged.

How do you know that, is there some stats for that?

Also the stats I posted compared it to other sports so "having more time to watch telly" doesn't explain it away

[user104658]

Over 55s have more time to watch telly than the 20 somethings. The live audience at the events will be predominantly under the age of being middle aged.

https://icdn.benchwarmers.ie/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/skysports-pdc-world-darts-championship_5192158.jpg

You can't just "say stuff" and have it magically be true Parmy. Evidence exists. We're already on the internet. It's right there, just one tab away.

[Cherie]

That's not true

Adult darts fans tend to be older: just 18% are aged 18-34 compared to 27% of the general sports-watching population, while 45% (vs. 40% of sports fans) are over 55

https://business.yougov.com/content/48382-luke-littler-loses-but-could-he-expand-the-audience-for-professional-darts

Not sure about that maybe sitting at home, but the audience are generally young men and women

[user104658]

Not sure about that maybe sitting at home, but the audience are generally young men and women

Peek at the spoiler above Cherie and tell me the picture is lying.

[Cherie]

I'll just ask what I asked above;

1) Why are they there?

2) Who is it for?

If you can reasonably answer those two things in a way that is at all reaslistic, and doesn't boil down to "to be nice to look at", "for men" then that's the start of a conversation. Until then you're just shouting "no you're wrong!". If I'm wrong give me an alternative, realistic, explanation.

Actually since they were binned in 2018 the sport has been growing, so no one knows why they have suddenly decided to do this, someone somewhere thought it was a good idea 6 years later

[Cherie]

Peek at the spoiler above Cherie and tell me the picture is lying.

I would say the majority in the pic are under 55 wouldn't you?

[Niamh.]

Not sure about that maybe sitting at home, but the audience are generally young men and women

They always looked mixed to me. Anecdotally, in real life the only people I know who are into watching the Darts are middle aged/older

[user104658]

Actually since they were binned in 2018 the sport has been growing, so no one knows why they have suddenly decided to do this

We do know.

someone somewhere thought it was a good idea 6 years later

An older man with his hand down his pants.

Let's stop pretending to know why. If you're defending the sport surely "Ugh we got past this and the sport was growing in legitimacy, why have they gone back to this outdated trash" should be the focus, not "Ahh it's fine it's just a bit of casual letchery for the working man, leave them to it".

[user104658]

I would say the majority in the pic are under 55 wouldn't you?

Parmy said under 25 Cherie and you said it's a mixed audience of "generally young men and women"!

Trying to find women of any age or a man under about 35-40 in that photo - a real photo, of a real, recent world darts championship - is like playing "Where's Wally?" :joker:. Actually quite fun.

Captioning that photo "a mixed audience of generally young men and women" would frankly be a flat out and blatant lie.

[MTVN]

There is a big and growing youth scene in darts. Most of the top pros are pretty young now. That said the fact it generally takes place in pubs at grassroots level does skew things towards an older demographic

My issue with it in sports in particular is women in sport are already fighting to be taken seriously in sport as it is so i think having women as decorations around the men in a sport makes it even harder for the female competitors to be taken seriously. I'm not going to stop watching the sports because of it (not talking specifically about Darts here as I rarely watch Darts but I suppose UFC/MMA ring girls comes to mind) but I don't love it.

That's a fair point but ironically - given it's being made out to be a bastion of sexism - darts is one of the only sports where women have broken into the men's game plus the women's game gets a lot of exposure and coverage in its own right

[user104658]

There is a big and growing youth scene in darts. Most of the top pros are pretty young now. That said the fact it generally takes place in pubs at grassroots level does skew things towards an older demographic

All the more reason to not slam it into reverse?


That's a fair point but ironically - given it's being made out to be a bastion of sexism - darts is one of the only sports where women have broken into the men's game plus the women's game gets a lot of exposure and coverage in its own right

Again this is a reason to push back against a return to the gross spectacle of "girls to look at for to soothe our eyes while the blokes walk on" rather than defending it to the hilt. It's being made out to be sexist in this example because there's a clear, current example of an official part of the sport making a conscious decision to return to a sexist practice that they'd left behind.

To be fair I initially thought it was the whole sport as that's how it was presented in the OP. It turns out to "just" be the seniors which is somehow similtaneously not quite as bad, whilst also being substantially more grim.

[Niamh.]

There is a big and growing youth scene in darts. Most of the top pros are pretty young now. That said the fact it generally takes place in pubs at grassroots level does skew things towards an older demographic



That's a fair point but ironically - given it's being made out to be a bastion of sexism - darts is one of the only sports where women have broken into the men's game plus the women's game gets a lot of exposure and coverage in its own right

Sure and tbf to the UFC they mix their cards so women and men perform on the same shows and it is one where men do seem to rate the female fighters and enjoy the fights (not all men of course, you're always going to have the ones who just don't want women doing anything but walking around in short shorts with Round 1 on a card) but I just don't like it, it's kind of jarring to have the women fighting and at the end of a round other women coming on in skimpy clothes as well so basically sending, imo two conflicting messages to the male viewers and to any women watching (especially younger women and girls)

[Beso]

I think it's only you and Parmy on this forum who still think "being gay" is some sort of insult Alf. I'll reiterate as I always do; I'm not gay, I've very happily been in a long-term heterosexual relationship for decades, but I don't find "getting called gay :hehe: " offensive. You're like a wee boy in shorts in the school playground 30 years ago with these insults. And apparently it's me stuck in the 80's :joker:.

Erm, you are using a lump of meat to try and insult people.


Isnt that childish? I also dont use the word gay as an insult either, so you can apologise for that.

[Beso]

I'll just ask what I asked above;

1) Why are they there?

2) Who is it for?

If you can reasonably answer those two things in a way that is at all reaslistic, and doesn't boil down to "to be nice to look at", "for men" then that's the start of a conversation. Until then you're just shouting "no you're wrong!". If I'm wrong give me an alternative, realistic, explanation.



Its pretty evident that they are there to advertise the sponsor, the william hill banner is a bit of a giveaway..


Didnt you used to keep there money safe for them?

[Beso]

Peek at the spoiler above Cherie and tell me the picture is lying.

A picture of a packed house, taken when there was no walk on girls..oh, how can we fill this full stadium even fuller...err we cant, it's full...aww, I was hoping to bring the walk on girls back to over fill the stadium..dont be silly, it's full already...with people still young and vibrant.

Bring the girls back though, they were good for advertisement..

Ok.thats what we will do then...bring them back fir the advertisement, our stadiums are full to the brim, so we do t need them for the dirty old men from the 80s to come back..

What about the ones watching on tv pulling their blinkers though...dont be silly, nobody is going to be sitting with their cocks out in front if the wife and grandkids peter.

[Beso]

Hers me thinking the YES, YES, YEAHHHHH. was the crowd appreciating a 180, when on fact it's just the sounds if many old men coming in unison.

[thesheriff443]

Straight men look at women
Straight men look at beautiful women for longer or take several looks
I’m sorry but I’m not going to look at the floor if I see a beautiful woman

[Beso]

The seniors darts isnt even on tv, so there are no dirty old gammony perverts watching. Quantum Boy.

[Cherie]

They always looked mixed to me. Anecdotally, in real life the only people I know who are into watching the Darts are middle aged/older

My younger son loves the darts :laugh:

[Niamh.]

My younger son loves the darts :laugh:

Yeah I'm aware that was anecdotal :laugh: the only one in my house into darts is Gav, his brother and sister watch too

[Ammi]

…surely it isn’t about the sport of Darts itself or the audience/fans because as has been seen since 2018, the sport has thrived without the addition of the walk on girls….its about whether it’s a fine or regressive thing for the girls to walk back on after 6 years….im a bit conflicted on this atm because I can see feminism should give females that right to decide if they want to earn an income in that way….anyway, while I’m pondering more… (…I think this is quite a good article and worthy of a read…)….

Is Banning Walk-On Girls From Darts An Own-Goal For Feminism?…

The Professional Darts Corporation has decided that walk-on girls are bad and, effective immediately, they’ve cancelled the whole idea. Darts players will just have to walk onto the stage in their big shirts all on their own. “We regularly review all aspects of our events and this move has been made following feedback from our host broadcasters,” said a PDC spokesperson. The Women’s Sport Trust applauded the move. “Motor Racing, Boxing and Cycling... your move,” they said.

It sounds good: the mute girls standing there in pretty dresses are a relic from our sexist past that should be deleted from our lives, like powerful movie producers wanking into pot plants, like actresses trading bleak sex for roles. But maybe not. In an interview with BBC Radio 5 Live soon after the announcement, PDC walk-on girl and model Charlotte Wood said that the darts made up 60% of her income. “I have chosen to do this job. I go to work. I put on a nice dress. I escort darts players to the stage. I smile and that is it.” She doesn’t see what the problem is. It’s an easy gig. She chose to do it.

It’s not inherently anti-feminist to choose to do a job that uses your body and your looks. Some of the most outspoken feminists I know stripped in bars because the money was better than working behind one. They used the cash they earned with their body to fund their art, their degree, to pay the rent for whatever cheap dive they were living in so they could buy time to do the thing they wanted to do. They exploited a system set up to exploit them. They chose to.

Semi-naked models parade on catwalks in front of fashion week crowds every year
Removing a choice, enforcing a lack of one as a PR move: how is that good, and how is that feminist? It’s patronising and controlling to take away the option for the sake of the PDC looking virtuous in the eyes of their broadcasters. The need to abolish this kind of work also seems like classist snobbery about girls and darts in general. It could be argued that working class women, regardless of their personal politics, are losing out on a source of income they rely on just to satisfy another class of women’s idea of feminism and the context in which they believe the female body should be viewed. Twitter rejoiced when ZOO magazine closed, but no one said anything about nude black and white spreads in glossier magazines. Semi-naked models parade on catwalks in front of fashion week crowds, to a huge hive of male photographers, every year. Barely covered nipples in that context is risqué — it’s art — just like the semi-naked women in Vogue. Contextually these images are entirely different, but they’re all paid gigs to models.


Pointlessly escorting some large dad onto a stage may be kind of gross, but so many of the jobs we have when we’re young and hot are worse. Having a job where you’re not explicitly objectified does not protect you from being objectified. From my own file of minor grievances: I had my apron strings yanked while taking food orders from a table of middle-aged businessmen in a nice restaurant in Mayfair. I had my arse slapped when I stepped out from behind the bar to collect the empty pints. I had a man literally breathe down my neck as I searched the DVD overstock for the sad cheap porno he requested and claimed he couldn’t find, but was right there on top of the pile. And I got paid far less for it than the walk-on girl.

At least for her there’s a barrier: her job is televised. It’s not a President’s Club situation, it’s not a private room filled with rich men who think they own the girls like they own everything else. I’ve been to countless boxing matches and — though stories will always vary from decade to decade and room to room — in my experience in those halls filled with physically overpowering men, those ring-girls are given a wide berth. At most, they’re helped through the ropes by giant security guards. They are distant, untouchable attractions.

There is never a feminist consensus on these things because women are people, complete with all our invisible clashing hierarchies of context and personal prejudices. Which is why we’ll continue to argue about where the lines are, to blunt our knives on benign bullshit like walk-on girls at a darts show. But loathe though I am to side with the kind of dudes who sign this petition to reinstate the girls and type “it’s PC gone mad” in the comments box, I think, in the world of feminism, this is an own goal.

[Ammi]

…one of the things of the article that I completely agree with is that female don’t have to ‘be objectified to be objectified…’…they’re objectified in so many different ways, as we know…does that make it right, no…but it’s still a truth, I think….we just have to look at people like Nigella Lawson preparing for her Christmas lunch and we know for many watching, it’s not about the cooking…but these walk on girls have turned it around to make an earnings they want to make and because they have the equal freedom to do so…

[user104658]

Exploitation with consent is not freedom Ammi, but I'm really not going to go into an entire semester's worth of political philosophy to explain that reasoning. You either understand it at a root level or you don't, and the groundwork needed to understand why it's the case is not for TiBB.

This is just the porn/onlyfans argument all over again so there's probably multiple threads out there where it's been gone over a lot more.

[Ammi]

…ok, well…I’m not going to get completely focused on the watching audience so that the girls themselves and their freedoms to choose are taken from them because that really is just a different step backwards, I would say…anyway, I’m packing to move house tomorrow right now so I don’t have time for ‘all over again’ either…we’re definitely in agreement in that…

[user104658]

Its pretty evident that they are there to advertise the sponsor, the william hill banner is a bit of a giveaway..


Didnt you used to keep there money safe for them?

Indeed though I'll not confirm which of the bastards I worked for ;) however it does mean that I'm well aware of the following;

1) Gambling by nature if an exploitation of the "customers".

2) The industry as a whole treats staff as numbers-in-seats not as people and pays as little as possible.

3) They openly and blatantly thrive on the exploitation and misuse of horses and greyhounds.


So it's not a particular surprise thet they'll happily exploit women for profit.

Is the argument "it's OK because some big companies are making lots of money off it"? Is that the justification now? That might be even flimsier than it being for the ogling sleazeballs.

[Beso]

Sorry charlotte, you will have to starve because SB fi ds you too sexy and thinks everyone else who does wont be able to control themselves the way he does..

[user104658]

…ok, well…I’m not going to get completely focused on the watching audience so that the girls themselves and their freedoms to choose are taken from them because that really is just a different step backwards, I would say…anyway, I’m packing to move house tomorrow right now so I don’t have time for ‘all over again’ either…we’re definitely in agreement in that…

Andrew Tate would agree with you Ammi. The ladies in his "employment" are free to choose to be pimped out. They have a commodity, after all, it's in high demand, why shouldn't they sell it?

https://i.imgur.com/FCEQtrF.jpeg

[user104658]

Sorry charlotte, you will have to starve because SB fi ds you too sexy and thinks everyone else who does wont be able to control themselves the way he does..

Absolutely nothing to do with people being able to control themselves or otherwise.

1) Why are they there.

2) Who is it for.

You still haven't answered these very simple questions Parmy, I wonder why not?

[Beso]

I did answer..I said they are there for the sponsors, but after reading ammis post, they are also there for themselves.

[user104658]

I did answer..I said they are there for the sponsors, but after reading ammis post, they are also there for themselves.

How does them being there benefit the sponsors?

[bots]

will the women be dressed up like they are working at hooters or will they be dressed like traditional presenters

[Beso]

How does them being there benefit the sponsors?

Let me ask you a question first.

Do you find the ladies sexy?

[jet]

See above Cherie - it's not "stereotyping" to point out that the people who want and are OK with this are slimy old bastards who should be on a leash at all times around women and children. It's not about "everyone".


That's just ludicrous. Men are men. Men of all ages appreciate a beautiful woman; appreciate the female form. It’s how we are made.
It doesn’t mean we get a hard on and drool and want to grab our cocks when an attractive woman appears onstage at a sports event. …..and do you need to be reminded that women are fully our equals (if not better, in my experience) and have a choice as to what they do without a big hot under the collar male thumping his chest on their behalf.
You doth protest too much.

[Ammi]

Andrew Tate would agree with you Ammi. The ladies in his "employment" are free to choose to be pimped out. They have a commodity, after all, it's in high demand, why shouldn't they sell it?

https://i.imgur.com/FCEQtrF.jpeg

…that’s one heck of a joining of dots to females choosing to be Darts Walk on Girls to being a gateway leading to Andrew Tate and being ‘pimped out’….so I’m just going to leave you to make that link, as that’s what you feel…as I said earlier, I’m distracted with packing atm so haven’t given this topic complete thought to have formed a definite opinion…it was really the article I wanted to post because I found that it prompted me to think more deeply about it all….I will say, though…to be really blunt…with your last comment to me…?…there are some days when it’s sadly impossible to have a grown up conversation with you…

[Beso]

Mustn't answer questions!

[Beso]

Do we have the demographic age ranges of people who commit the really bad perverted stuff like rapes and indecent assaults..cause I'm sure as **** it ain't the old beer swilling gammony fat old men over 55 committing those perversion.

[user104658]

That's just ludicrous. Men are men. Men of all ages appreciate a beautiful woman; appreciate the female form. It’s how we are made.
It doesn’t mean we get a hard on and drool and want to grab our cocks when an attractive woman appears onstage at a sports event. …..and do you need to be reminded that women are fully our equals (if not better, in my experience) and have a choice as to what they do without a big hot under the collar male thumping his chest on their behalf.
You doth protest too much.

Oh yes it's definitely me protesting too much :joker:

And to answer Parmy: no, I do not find it "sexy" when girls half my age are paraded around to be gawped at by dirty old blokes who think it's "normal". Are you really struggling to get your head around that?

[user104658]

…that’s one heck of a joining of dots to females choosing to be Darts Walk on Girls to being a gateway leading to Andrew Tate and being ‘pimped out’….

No it isn't, it's an extreme version of EXACTLY the same mindset, and a normalisation of that mindset that excuses misogyny "lite". There is precisely nothing "empowering" about anyone selling this, in either form.

[bots]

In fairness to QB, he has consistently held that view for years, so, agree with him or not, it's not just applicable to Dart assistants

[Mystic Mock]

The objectification of women (and if you do want to extend it to Hollywood, men as well) is insidious and damaging and saying that "the ones who don't want to do it can avoid it" is reductive, lacks insight and ultimately IMO comes purely from a place of defensiveness.

I'm stereotyping Darts because instead of leaning into being seen as a more professional/respectable sport, they're choosing to go back to the old ways of trotting half-naked ladies out to "pretty up" their events. Is the sport not engaging enough to stand on its own merits? People are arguing hard that it is. Without then questioning why they're doing this :idc:.

And then it transpired that it's only for the seniors :joker: :skull:. Slimey as ****, I have literally no issue at all with saying that 50+ year old men who want 20 year olds with their boobs out to make the dart more entertaining to them are gross, perving trogs. Straight in the bin. The ones who say "Err we don't need that in our sport thanks, gross" can stay. Where's the stereotyping?

No offense intended here QB, but the BIB I normally tend to hear from two groups of people.

1. Evangelicals who use the "think of the children" card and "traditional family values."

And 2. Extreme feminists who hate women being sexual or to be "pleasing" to men full stop.

And personally I don't believe that Darts needs it in a commercial sense or entertainment sense, but if some women are wanting to do the gig, and the Sport also wants them to be apart of the process then I don't see the issue.:shrug:

And again if 50+ year old men are into women in their twenties who cares? They're adults by that point.

Because are we saying that for example that Cheryl Cole's a creep for being into Liam Payne, when there was a 10 year age gap between them? Plus she knew him when he was a kid on The X Factor.

[Mystic Mock]

See above Cherie - it's not "stereotyping" to point out that the people who want and are OK with this are slimy old bastards who should be on a leash at all times around women and children. It's not about "everyone".

If Darts doesn't want to be seen as a sport for letching nonces, they probably shouldn't use "young women's boobies" as an advertising boon for their seniors tournaments. JFC.

Fancying women in their twenties doesn't make these older men Nonces.:laugh:

[Mystic Mock]

There' nothing wrong with the dresses. There's something fundamentally wrong with needlessly exhibiting young women in a sport aimed at middle-aged men. This should not be a hard concept to grasp but I won't pretend why some people "don't get it". Too busy with their hand in their pants watching women young enough to be their daughters drag out the old Darts Farts for literally no reason whatsoever that anyone can give other than that "they're nice for men to look at".

https://i.imgur.com/YovCH3f.jpeg

Can we please stop pretending to not know what we're looking at here? Come on now :joker:. Don't be so f'ing silly.

That picture.:joker:

[Mystic Mock]

A picture of a packed house, taken when there was no walk on girls..oh, how can we fill this full stadium even fuller...err we cant, it's full...aww, I was hoping to bring the walk on girls back to over fill the stadium..dont be silly, it's full already...with people still young and vibrant.

Bring the girls back though, they were good for advertisement..

Ok.thats what we will do then...bring them back fir the advertisement, our stadiums are full to the brim, so we do t need them for the dirty old men from the 80s to come back..

What about the ones watching on tv pulling their blinkers though...dont be silly, nobody is going to be sitting with their cocks out in front if the wife and grandkids peter.

Tbf, the girls aren't there to sponsor William Hill.:laugh:

[Mystic Mock]

…one of the things of the article that I completely agree with is that female don’t have to ‘be objectified to be objectified…’…they’re objectified in so many different ways, as we know…does that make it right, no…but it’s still a truth, I think….we just have to look at people like Nigella Lawson preparing for her Christmas lunch and we know for many watching, it’s not about the cooking…but these walk on girls have turned it around to make an earnings they want to make and because they have the equal freedom to do so…

God some men do love to perv over Nigella Lawson.:laugh:

Personally I don't see the issue with watching stuff where you find someone attractive.

Didn't Shows like Buffy and Smallville thrive off of audiences finding the Actors attractive? Depending on age groups there would be different strokes for different folks on those two Shows.

I always in particular remember Smallville loving shirtless Oliver scenes, is that objectification and regressive? Personally I just see it as good marketing from CW.

And tbh it's not a healthy society to tell people that finding anyone on TV attractive is "objectification" or these people on TV being hired for their looks is "regressive" and "sexist."

Having a basic level of people (men and women) being sexualized (whilst the person in question is consenting to it) is okay, and it is normal for people to find other people attractive or sexy, there should be no shaming on that front (as long as they're adults of course.)

And it's just a slippery slope what some people are kind of wanting to have happen in every industry, because what's next? Should women not wear dresses anymore? Should women not be allowed to wear makeup anymore? Are women not allowed to work anymore? Whatever argument that people want to make and whether you like or don't like a certain profession, if it's not hurting anyone then why should it bother anyone in a negative way?

[Mystic Mock]

How does them being there benefit the sponsors?

I will agree with you on this part.

[jet]

Oh yes it's definitely me protesting too much :joker:

And to answer Parmy: no, I do not find it "sexy" when girls half my age are paraded around to be gawped at by dirty old blokes who think it's "normal". Are you really struggling to get your head around that?

Adult women in their twenties have minds of their own.....Paraded around? You make them sound like helpless dumb animals in a circus.
Mother nature played a nasty trick on men, giving us cocks and those damn sex drives. And eyes.
And didn’t even have the compassion to turn us into eunuchs when we reach 45 or so…..:laugh:

[jet]

I enjoyed reading your posts on this subject tonight Mock. Good stuff! :clap1:

[Mystic Mock]

I enjoyed reading your posts on this subject tonight Mock. Good stuff! :clap1:

Thanks Jet.:blush:

It's probably not good for the Forum having myself and QB debating on polar opposite viewpoints in this situation.:laugh:

We're both stubborn bastards.:joker:

[Beso]

Oh yes it's definitely me protesting too much :joker:

And to answer Parmy: no, I do not find it "sexy" when girls half my age are paraded around to be gawped at by dirty old blokes who think it's "normal". Are you really struggling to get your head around that?

That's not what I asked.

[Livia]

It's as ridiculous as having some twenty year old boys in Speedos walking the women dart players onto the stage. Gratuitous objectification.

[Mystic Mock]

It's as ridiculous as having some twenty year old boys in Speedos walking the women dart players onto the stage. Gratuitous objectification.

If guys want to do that and the women's Darts were open to the idea, then why not?

[Livia]

If guys want to do that and the women's Darts were open to the idea, then why not?

Because it gives the mistaken impression that people who look a certain way and dress in tight, skimpy clothes can be objectified because of the way they look. I would be horrified to see my daughter when she grows up, leered at by old men with a pint in their hand. To me, it's no different to a men following a young woman down the street, commenting and wolf whistling. Women are accomplished and multi-faceted, they're not here solely for the gratification of men.

[Beso]

I remember how popular the chippendales and the dream boys used to be.

[Livia]

I remember how popular the chippendales and the dream boys used to be.

I think the operative term there is "used to be".

[Cherie]

Because it gives the mistaken impression that people who look a certain way and dress in tight, skimpy clothes can be objectified because of the way they look. I would be horrified to see my daughter when she grows up, leered at by old men with a pint in their hand. To me, it's no different to a men following a young woman down the street, commenting and wolf whistling. Women are accomplished and multi-faceted, they're not here solely for the gratification of men.

Two completely different things surely walking down the street minding your own business and putting yourself in a situation where you are paid to do so? That said Darts currently have pom pom girls who dance on the stage as the players are walking on, no one pays them any attention, the audience are focussed on the Darts player they are like the warm up act at a gig, practically invisible, we really cant choose how women like to get paid because it doesnt suit us or we wouldnt want family members to do it, I think its as Parm said earlier more of a boost to the betting company who sponsor the event to give them more exposure as Darts audiences dont pay all that money to see women walking around in a dress given they could get much more free on pornhub or whatever, its the same argument as women only watch football to look at muscly men, just inane

Anyhoo I will be buying a blind fold for Mr C and will only remove it when play commences .....:fist:

[Livia]

Two completely different things surely walking down the street minding your own business and putting yourself in a situation where you are paid to do so? That said Darts currently have pom pom girls who dance on the stage as the players are walking on, no one pays them any attention, the audience are focussed on the Darts player they are like the warm up act at a gig, practically invisible, we really cant choose how women like to get paid because it doesnt suit us or we wouldnt want family members to do it, I think its as Parm said earlier more of a boost to the betting company who sponsor the event to give them more exposure as Darts audiences dont pay all that money to see women walking around in a dress given they could get much more free on pornhub or whatever, its the same argument as women only watch football to look at muscly men, just inane

Anyhoo I will be buying a blind fold for Mr C and will only remove it when play commences .....:fist:

Men are used to oggling women, whether the woman is paid or not. It sets a norm, I think.

Just let Mr C look at one of them... Tight dress, big bobs, pumped up lips... They all look pretty much the same. And if I want muscley men I'll watch the rugby tyvm....

Nice to see you've not changed your name while I was away... I'm playing a who's who catch up!

[Beso]

I think the operative term there is "used to be".

Does Chippendales Still Exist Today? Yes, Chippendales very much still exists today. Billed as "a mantastic, sex-god, abs party that will make you lose your damn mind," the Chippendales have a residency at the Rio All-Suite Hotel and Casino in Las Vegas.

[Beso]

Brace yourself for an electrifying night of unadulterated pleasure and indulge in the “Dreamboys: Stripped Back” 2024 Worldwide Tour. Be part of our explosive, immersive, and seductive dance show as the Dreamboys take the stage

[MTVN]

I see both sides of the debate really. Fundamentally I think it's a pretty harmless practice and while it might be a bit sad and a bit pervy the reality is that you'll never be able to completely de-sexualise society. Saying that I don't think it's needed and it doesn't really add anything. I've almost never heard people lamenting the absence of walk on girls since they were scrapped

[Livia]

Does Chippendales Still Exist Today? Yes, Chippendales very much still exists today. Billed as "a mantastic, sex-god, abs party that will make you lose your damn mind," the Chippendales have a residency at the Rio All-Suite Hotel and Casino in Las Vegas.

Is a niche male dance group comparable to scantily clad women standing around at sports events? If you want to see male strippers, you can go to see male strippers. If you want to see female strippers, you can go to see female strippers. It's not comparable.

Personally I don't see anything sexy about a bunch of greased up muscle men dancing around in collar and cuffs and little else. And I guarantee they will not cause me to "lose my damn mind". I saw the Dreamboys at an airport once, wandering around in t.shirts with DREAMBOYS emblazoned on them in case anyone missed them. They looked... thick. Just my opinion of course.

[Livia]

Brace yourself for an electrifying night of unadulterated pleasure and indulge in the “Dreamboys: Stripped Back” 2024 Worldwide Tour. Be part of our explosive, immersive, and seductive dance show as the Dreamboys take the stage

You look like a real fan, Parm.

[Swan]

No it isn't, it's an extreme version of EXACTLY the same mindset, and a normalisation of that mindset that excuses misogyny "lite". There is precisely nothing "empowering" about anyone selling this, in either form.

Comparing walk on girls at darts events, to Andrew Tate pimping out young women is bloody ridiculous. Have a word with yourself. Andrew Tate used, manipulated, promised riches, and a better life to tons of women. He went after vulnerable girls in countries where human rights are a joke, used them, and payed them next to nothing.

I don't really watch darts, but the PDC, and the bookies who sponsor it all, and Sky who air it, are massive organisations with proper safeguarding in place. They are not promised the world, or a "way out" like Tate did to all his women. They're merely offered a job. They are not asked to perform sex acts on stage are they?!!

Literally, it's completely up to the women. If they're fine with it, and don't feel objectified then who are we to judge? Also, the irony of a middle aged man telling the women they are "wrong" in this thread, and that the MAN knows better is bloody hilarious too. And sad.

[Beso]

Is a niche male dance group comparable to scantily clad women standing around at sports events? If you want to see male strippers, you can go to see male strippers. If you want to see female strippers, you can go to see female strippers. It's not comparable.

Personally I don't see anything sexy about a bunch of greased up muscle men dancing around in collar and cuffs and little else. And I guarantee they will not cause me to "lose my damn mind". I saw the Dreamboys at an airport once, wandering around in t.shirts with DREAMBOYS emblazoned on them in case anyone missed them. They looked... thick. Just my opinion of course.

But the darts women aren't scantily clad, they have nice dresses on akin to a business meeting attire or something you would see on a saturday evening on strictly..

[Beso]

You look like a real fan, Parm.

I went once, wanted to deep fry them all.

[Livia]

I went once, wanted to deep fry them all.

Lol... Now that i would buy a ticket to watch.

[bots]

it really all depends on the environment. Will it be professional or seedy

[user104658]

Fancying women in their twenties doesn't make these older men Nonces.:laugh:

We'll agree to disagree there Mock; I think you're still (relatively?) young and that you realise that 50 year olds drooling over women in their 20's is not normal nor should it be socially acceptable, and I hope that the old gents on here arguing hard to the contrary doesn't give you the idea that it is normal. It is, in fact, normal to find people in your own age bracket more attractive than people young enough to be your own children.

But like I said I think you're still a relatively young man so it's not really possible to say how you'll see it when you're approaching middle age.

I hope for the best. Don't be like this lot :joker:.

[user104658]

But the darts women aren't scantily clad, they have nice dresses on akin to a business meeting attire or something you would see on a saturday evening on strictly..

Business meeting attire!! Come on Parmy you're pulling our legs now surely :laugh:.

They're dressed to show off their cleavage and legs; you do understand that, surely. And it's not even that there's anything wrong with that in itself. It's the reason for it, and the intended audience, that makes it an issue.

It is inherently seedy.

[bots]

We'll agree to disagree there Mock; I think you're still (relatively?) young and that you realise that 50 year olds drooling over women in their 20's is not normal nor should it be socially acceptable, and I hope that the old gents on here arguing hard to the contrary doesn't give you the idea that it is normal. It is, in fact, normal to find people in your own age bracket more attractive than people young enough to be your own children.

But like I said I think you're still a relatively young man so it's not really possible to say how you'll see it when you're approaching middle age.

I hope for the best. Don't be like this lot :joker:.


The majority of men find young women attractive. That doesn't need to be pervy and seedy like you are implying. Some might say it says more about you than it does about others. To suggest that that older men can't find young people attractive and interesting without lusting after them is insulting

[user104658]

The majority of men find young women attractive. That doesn't need to be pervy and seedy like you are implying. Some might say it says more about you than it does about others. To suggest that that older men can't find young people attractive and interesting without lusting after them is insulting

Are you genuinely suggesting that this is the purpose of darts walk-on girls? You cannot be. Surely.

If it "says more about me" that I never even slightly view 20 year olds as someone that I would have any non-platonic interest in whatsoever then I will gladly accept what it "says" about me, and I hope you're wrong that "most men" aren't looking at them with non-platonic attraction, but hey, I suspect you're probably right.

Which is grim. Grim.

[Liam-]

Christ alive, if infantilising grown women was an Olympic sport QB would take gold, this is actually some insanely infantile, teenage twitter sjw nonsense

[user104658]

Christ alive, if infantilising grown women was an Olympic sport QB would take gold, this is actually some insanely infantile, teenage twitter sjw nonsense

It's not about infantilising anyone it's about people drooling over people young enough to be their children. But then, I recall you being fully accepting of 50 year old Philip Schofield grooming 16 year old boys "cos it's legal" so I'm not surprised you feel this way Liam.

It's also an aside because the dart "walk-on girls" would be exploitative, gross and misogynistic no matter what age the women were. It's just an additional level of slime that 60 year old men want it to be women in their late teens and early 20's. A similar slime to middle-aged-men wining and dining teenage boys, funnily enough.

[user104658]

Also not going unnoticed that the one time Liam is aligning with the older forum chaps - who he's usually out in full riot gear to combat - is when it's to defend male exploitation, objectification and commoditisation of women.

"lol".

Like I said, OnlyFans all over again.

:idc:.

[MTVN]

Tbf you do keep hammering home the 'could be their children' point and called them nonces so that is a bit infantilising to equate it with paedophilia. Most walk on girls are probably mid to late 20s

Edit - in fact the ones in question here are mid 30s!

[Liam-]

You’re coming across really unhinged like you do around any subject of sex or women doing whatever they want to, you seem to have a massive problem with women living their lives however they want to, your vision of what women should be and what they should do perfectly align with the old sexist chaps and the likes of Tate you’re regularly railing against.

It’s incredibly condescending to tell adult women that they’re naive or being exploited if they chose to do a career you believe is immoral because you have an obscured sense of purity and morality

[Liam-]

Tbf you do keep hammering home the 'could be their children' point and called them nonces so that is a bit infantilising to equate it with paedophilia. Most walk on girls are probably mid to late 20s

Edit - in fact the ones in question here are mid 30s!

Comparing people to sex offenders because they find adult women attractive, it’s ****ing insane

[MTVN]

Daniella Allfree and Charlotte Wood are the two walk on girls who'll be doing this event. Google thinks they're 36 years old

[Liam-]

Don’t look at the 36 year old children! They’re being exploited!

[user104658]

"Being against the objectification and hypersexualisation of women is sexist! Saying that porn and prostitution is the prime example of objectification and commoditisation of women is actually denying them the right to choose a career!!!"

...shouted the fellowship of male TiBB members, in newly found harmony...

How the tables turn eh Liam :joker:. Don't worry, I was already aware that being a "SWERF" isn't au fait with the community.

[user104658]

Daniella Allfree and Charlotte Wood are the two walk on girls who'll be doing this event. Google thinks they're 36 years old


Most walk on girls are probably mid to late 20s

Edit - in fact the ones in question here are mid 30s!

Don’t look at the 36 year old children! They’re being exploited!

... Also feel free to continue to ignore the fact that I've already said it's not about age.


It's also an aside because the dart "walk-on girls" would be exploitative, gross and misogynistic no matter what age the women were. It's just an additional level of slime.

If it helps at all Liam, it's also not about gender; males being exploited and objectified is just as bad, and it does happen. It's just much, much, much more rare.

Funnily enough though...

...it is usually younger men being objectified and turned into a trading commodity...

......and it is usually older fellows doing the buying. ;)

Free Market Capitalism at it's finest, you old Tory you :joker:

[Crimson Dynamo]

A thread where SB/TS/QB thought he could freely hate on white middle aged men (again) has turned into an expose of his hateful intolerance of well, just about anyone man and woman..

Its always the self-proclaimed "liberals" who end up being the actual bigots...

:skull:

[user104658]

A thread where SB/TS/QB thought he could freely hate on white middle aged men (again) has turned into an expose of his hateful intolerance of well, just about anyone man and woman..

Its always the self-proclaimed "liberals" who end up being the actual bigots...

:skull:

No no it's still just the dirty old men :)

[edit] FFS I've just realised who you are under a new name :rolleyes: I was hoping you were in one of Starmer's cells. Is that why you've gone incognito, or is it just 'cos of that thread where everyone said your old name sounded like a butt dildo?

[Liam-]

Yes, treating women who choose certain careers like they don’t have the agency of adult women to choose those careers because they’ve obviously been abused or manipulated into doing the careers by evil, exploitative men is sexist and demeans adults abilities to make their own decisions.

You seriously become quite deranged whenever you discuss these things, you’re always high and mighty about everything you post about, but this takes it to the next level

[user104658]

Yes, treating women who choose certain careers like they don’t have the agency of adult women to choose those careers because they’ve obviously been abused or manipulated into doing the careers by evil, exploitative men is sexist and demeans adults abilities to make their own decisions.

You seriously become quite deranged whenever you discuss these things, you’re always high and mighty about everything you post about, but this takes it to the next level

They're not all manipulated into doing it by dirty old men, they just wouldn't have anyone paying for it if the world wasn't full of dirty old men. What's hard to grasp about this, Liam?

[Liam-]

And unsurprisingly he ventures off into thinly veiled homophobia, like he does whenever he gets challenged on his opinions by gay men

[user104658]

And unsurprisingly he ventures off into thinly veiled homophobia, like he does whenever he gets challenged on his opinions by gay men

WHERE is the homophobia :joker:. Is it because I pointed out that young male sex workers are usually paid for by old men, just like young female sex workers are usually paid for by old men. That is called a FACT Liam and has nothing to do with homophobia, it's purely pointing out that it's men doing the objectifying.

Feel free to call it misandry, which would be accurate. I'm actually saying that these old blokes are all the same, gay or straight. Not sure how that's homophobia but the lack of comprehension is par for the course so we'll let it slide eh.

[MTVN]

I'm actually pretty against porn and prostitution these days but I think it's pretty crude to draw an equivalence between that and this. Those two things do way more societal harm. I know it's being presented as a 'slippery slope' or 'thin end of the wedge' type thing but it that's the case then where does that wedge or slope begin? People are always going to be attracted to other people and there will always be industries which capitalise on that one way or another. It happens all throughout acting, singing, modelling etc.

[Liam-]

Men are all dirty, evil perverts (except for QB because he’s the perfect bastion or morality and sensibilities) and women are dainty, easily manipulated fairies who don’t know what they’re doing and should be protected from themselves if they do things that QB doesn’t agree with

[Crimson Dynamo]

No no it's still just the dirty old men :)

[edit] FFS I've just realised who you are under a new name :rolleyes: I was hoping you were in one of Starmer's cells. Is that why you've gone incognito, or is it just 'cos of that thread where everyone said your old name sounded like a butt dildo?

yep, floundering around after being exposed

pathetic

[user104658]

I'm actually pretty against porn and prostitution these days but I think it's pretty crude to draw an equivalence between that and this. I know it's being presented as a 'slippery slope' or 'thin end of the wedge' type thing but it that's the case then where does that wedge or slope begin? People are always going to be attracted to other people and there will always be industries which capitalise on that one way or another. It happens all throughout acting, singing, modelling etc.

It begins when it's gratuitously commoditised for money as the singular scope of what it is. Which this unambiguously is. Yes singers/actors/etc are sexualised and there's far more grey area there, because the sexualisation is being used to attract to the product, is isn't THE product in and of itself.

There is zero reason for the walk-on girls other than "to be looked at". They serve no purpose in darts. Zero. It literally is "extremely light porn". And it's not really about it being a slippery slope, more about insidious normalisation of mindset.

It's clear as day in this thread, and the defensiveness and frustration bursting out all over the place only serves to prove that.

People like their cummies, but they don't want to feel grubby about it.

Tough :shrug: it's gross. Sex and sexiness is great. Find a partner. Heck, go out and have a series of flings - each to their own. Stop making it a product to ogle on telly/at sports matches/to outright pay for. It's not complicated at all.

[Cherie]

"Being against the objectification and hypersexualisation of women is sexist! Saying that porn and prostitution is the prime example of objectification and commoditisation of women is actually denying them the right to choose a career!!!"

...shouted the fellowship of male TiBB members, in newly found harmony...

How the tables turn eh Liam :joker:. Don't worry, I was already aware that being a "SWERF" isn't au fait with the community.

Not sure you can compare walk on girls who are basically advertising the sponsor to porn and prostitution? what about models who sashay down the catwalk wearing Alexander McQueen would you compare that to porn and prostitution? what about models on TV adverts, again are they there to be drooled over by 60 somethings, I think you are over exaggerating the effect these women have on men tbh

[user104658]

Not sure you can compare walk on girls who are basically advertising the sponsor to porn and prostitution? what about models who sashay down the catwalk wearing Alexander McQueen would you compare that to porn and prostitution? what about models on TV adverts, again are they there to be drooled over by 60 somethings, I think you are over exaggerating the effect these women have on men tbh

They're there to advertise the sponsor... William Hill... I mean if you can suggest how the two things are related?

But anyway yes lots of advertising is indeed exploitative (of all sorts of people and things). That would be a much bigger discussion. Fashion is a bit of a grey area but tbh again, I don't think the fashion industry holds up very well under a little scrutiny either. I mean... At least the porn industry doesn't require people to starve themselves on top of everything else.

[user104658]

yep, floundering around after being exposed

pathetic

I literally have zero interest in anything you have to say, Trumpet. You may continue to snipe from the sidelines, I'm not going to block you but I hand on heart promise that I'm not going to lower myself to engaging with you on any topic, ever. You revealed yourself to be worse than I actually thought during the England riots, if that's at all possible. It goes a bit beyond the usual forum nonsense really, doesn't it. You should be permanently banned. I'm going to pretend that you are. That shall be all.

[Crimson Dynamo]

I literally have zero interest in anything you have to say, Trumpet. You may continue to snipe from the sidelines, I'm not going to block you but I hand on heart promise that I'm not going to lower myself to engaging with you on any topic, ever. You revealed yourself to be worse than I actually thought during the England riots, if that's at all possible. It goes a bit beyond the usual forum nonsense really, doesn't it. You should be permanently banned. I'm going to pretend that you are. That shall be all.

oh it hurts when you are the subject..

re-read the thread m8

its all on you

own it

[Mystic Mock]

Because it gives the mistaken impression that people who look a certain way and dress in tight, skimpy clothes can be objectified because of the way they look. I would be horrified to see my daughter when she grows up, leered at by old men with a pint in their hand. To me, it's no different to a men following a young woman down the street, commenting and wolf whistling. Women are accomplished and multi-faceted, they're not here solely for the gratification of men.

I'm talking about the men in speedos.

[Mystic Mock]

Two completely different things surely walking down the street minding your own business and putting yourself in a situation where you are paid to do so? That said Darts currently have pom pom girls who dance on the stage as the players are walking on, no one pays them any attention, the audience are focussed on the Darts player they are like the warm up act at a gig, practically invisible, we really cant choose how women like to get paid because it doesnt suit us or we wouldnt want family members to do it, I think its as Parm said earlier more of a boost to the betting company who sponsor the event to give them more exposure as Darts audiences dont pay all that money to see women walking around in a dress given they could get much more free on pornhub or whatever, its the same argument as women only watch football to look at muscly men, just inane

Anyhoo I will be buying a blind fold for Mr C and will only remove it when play commences .....:fist:

I agree with most of this post.

The only part that I don't agree with, is I think that the Darts want the walk on girls back for "eye candy" reasons, and personally I don't see the issue with that reason.

In my personal view whether the Darts wants them or not doesn't affect my personal enjoyment of the Darts (my type tend to mostly be in the Music scene anyway) so I'm not really getting that much gratification out of having walk on girls in Darts personally.

But I also don't get the drama of women (or men if they were to ever do that equivalent) having an extra job opportunity? We're not an Islamic or Evangelical state.:laugh:

[Alf]

Taylor Swift wears less on stage.

[Alf]

Sam Smith wears less than Swift.

[Mystic Mock]

I see both sides of the debate really. Fundamentally I think it's a pretty harmless practice and while it might be a bit sad and a bit pervy the reality is that you'll never be able to completely de-sexualise society. Saying that I don't think it's needed and it doesn't really add anything. I've almost never heard people lamenting the absence of walk on girls since they were scrapped

I think that I can understand your view tbh.

And I agree that it's not really needed.

[Alf]

Woman are such victims these days. I'm old enough to know and remember strong women. Not the fake strong of today. When they just say they're strong, but the reality is they have to be defended on nonsense things like this.

I blame the demise of humour.

[Mystic Mock]

We'll agree to disagree there Mock; I think you're still (relatively?) young and that you realise that 50 year olds drooling over women in their 20's is not normal nor should it be socially acceptable, and I hope that the old gents on here arguing hard to the contrary doesn't give you the idea that it is normal. It is, in fact, normal to find people in your own age bracket more attractive than people young enough to be your own children.

But like I said I think you're still a relatively young man so it's not really possible to say how you'll see it when you're approaching middle age.

I hope for the best. Don't be like this lot :joker:.

I can accept that tbf.:laugh:

I'm 28 at the moment, and I do kind of have my own cut off point for myself.

Like for me whilst I can find 16-18 year olds attractive, I would never actually enter a sexual encounter with someone in that age group.

Fair enough to anyone that's in my age group that is okay with that, but it's not for me.

[user104658]

I agree with most of this post.

The only part that I don't agree with, is I think that the Darts want the walk on girls back for "eye candy" reasons, and personally I don't see the issue with that reason.

You don't see the issue with the concept of "eye candy" because you yourself enjoy it and you don't want to have to stop enjoying it, because you have no alternative frame of reference.

You might be a dad to girls one day and then I think (hope) you might see things differently, and when men your own age are drooling at girls your daughter's age, you might understand the issue.

Some dads still don't, unfortunately, but hey.

[Mystic Mock]

You don't see the issue with the concept of "eye candy" because you yourself enjoy it and you don't want to have to stop enjoying it, because you have no alternative frame of reference.

You might be a dad to girls one day and then I think (hope) you might see things differently, and when men your own age are drooling at girls your daughter's age, you might understand the issue.

Some dads still don't, unfortunately, but hey.

Tbh I never pay the girls any attention at the men's Sporting events, and that's the truth.

Like I know that F1 I think have those flag girls before the race starts, and I honestly can't remember a single one of them.:laugh:

[Alf]

We love eye candy.

As the Rolling Stones once said

"I see the girls go by dressed in their Summer clothes"

We don't try to stop you ogling Sam Smith, so give us the same courtesy and the World will be a more tolerant place.

Attempt to stop being intolerant if you can, for all our sakes, basically.

[user104658]

We love eye candy.

As the Rolling Stones once said

"I see the girls go by dressed in their Summer clothes"

We don't try to stop you ogling Sam Smith, so give us the same courtesy and the World will be a more tolerant place.

Attempt to stop being intolerant if you can, for all our sakes, basically.

Don't think I will stop being intolerant of slimey old geezers Alf, no.

By "all our sakes" I assume that's who you're referring to. The smelly old gits perving on young women who want to do it without judgement. Nah. I'm judging.

[thesheriff443]

You don't see the issue with the concept of "eye candy" because you yourself enjoy it and you don't want to have to stop enjoying it, because you have no alternative frame of reference.

You might be a dad to girls one day and then I think (hope) you might see things differently, and when men your own age are drooling at girls your daughter's age, you might understand the issue.

Some dads still don't, unfortunately, but hey.

Listen, they are not kids forever they grow and most start having sex in their late teens just like their parents did

All this focus on older men drooling over twenty’s something girls is bollox
Because those girls are more than likely sucking on a cock and as disgusting as it will to the fathers of those girls it’s no different to when the parents were at the same age

Sex is part of the human race

[user104658]

Listen, they are not kids forever they grow and most start having sex in their late teens just like their parents did

All this focus on older men drooling over twenty’s something girls is bollox
Because those girls are more than likely sucking on a cock and as disgusting as it will to the fathers of those girls it’s no different to when the parents were at the same age

Sex is part of the human race

Once again, no one is being puritan about people enjoying sex, it's not the same thing as it being sold to sad old gits as a product/service. Obviously that's a reality of the human race too - but it's a bloody sad reality, and something being commonplace doesn't mean we have to accept it as normal.

[thesheriff443]

Once again, no one is being puritan about people enjoying sex, it's not the same thing as it being sold to sad old gits as a product/service. Obviously that's a reality of the human race too - but it's a bloody sad reality, and something being commonplace doesn't mean we have to accept it as normal.

You need to accept that being attracted to the opposite sex is part of being a human and that will never change

You can take it all round the houses , with it’s not this it’s that but it’s human nature

[Alf]

You need to accept that being attracted to the opposite sex is part of being a human and that will never change

You can take it all round the houses , with it’s not this it’s that but it’s human natureI'm not sure that he likes Human nature. He's borderline Communist.

[thesheriff443]

I'm not sure that he likes Human nature. He's borderline Communist.

It’s a very unrealistic outlook by him when people are agreeing with you :joker:

[user104658]

You need to accept that being attracted to the opposite sex is part of being a human and that will never change

You can take it all round the houses , with it’s not this it’s that but it’s human nature

Again that's not what's being discussed, there's no issue with human sexuality there is an issue with it being transactional and objectifying (mostly) women.

I'm not sure that he likes Human nature. He's borderline Communist.

"That's not human nature, that's COMMUNISM!" is up there with your more bizarre statements Alf. Have you been studying Locke? Capitalism as human nature? I didn't take you for such a philospher. And American colonial philosophy at that. Maybe that part isn't surprising :joker:.

[user104658]

It’s a very unrealistic outlook by him when people are agreeing with you :joker:

Apparently I've managed to unite every man on the forum under one banner of misogyny, even Liam joined in to fight for women's right to engage in sex work (because it's empowering, did you know).

It's quite heartwarming really. You could all go to the darts together and peek at some empowered ladies while they walk the men in. Liam can tell them they're empowered. Parmy can go to a business meeting with them. It'll be great.

[Kate!]

Apparently I've managed to unite every man on the forum under one banner of misogyny, even Liam joined in to fight for women's right to engage in sex work (because it's empowering, did you know).

It's quite heartwarming really. You could all go to the darts together and peek at some empowered ladies while they walk the men in. Liam can tell them they're empowered. Parmy can go to a business meeting with them. It'll be great.

:laugh:

I'm actually with Quantum Boy on this issue.

[Cherie]

Don't think I will stop being intolerant of slimey old geezers Alf, no.

By "all our sakes" I assume that's who you're referring to. The smelly old gits perving on young women who want to do it without judgement. Nah. I'm judging.

Sorry what age are you 'smelly old gits', honestly you really haven't got a leg to stand on at this stage, women want to walk on stage promoting the sponsor wearing a dress, and gasp showing a bit of cleavage .... sorry Mr Victorian or should I call you Mr Burkah, but yeah its going to happen :hee: Walking around in a dress is not sex work....no matter how you twist it

[Liam-]

The man who doesn’t think women have the agency to control their own body and do the careers they want to do calls everyone else misogynists

[MTVN]

Apparently I've managed to unite every man on the forum under one banner of misogyny, even Liam joined in to fight for women's right to engage in sex work (because it's empowering, did you know).

It's quite heartwarming really. You could all go to the darts together and peek at some empowered ladies while they walk the men in. Liam can tell them they're empowered. Parmy can go to a business meeting with them. It'll be great.

You've managed to find issue with female members on here as well over this tbf

Thing is I don't think anyone here actually cares about walk on girls, it's just the pearl clutching and false equivalences that are a bit ott

[MTVN]

You don't see the issue with the concept of "eye candy" because you yourself enjoy it and you don't want to have to stop enjoying it, because you have no alternative frame of reference.

You might be a dad to girls one day and then I think (hope) you might see things differently, and when men your own age are drooling at girls your daughter's age, you might understand the issue.

Some dads still don't, unfortunately, but hey.

Again apparently it's not about age but you're portraying it as if these are very young woman being preyed on or as if they're still children under their parents protection.

If your daughter is 36 years old I think they're a bit too old for their Dad to be controlling who's looking at them or how they behave

[user104658]

Again apparently it's not about age but you're portraying it as if these are very young woman being preyed on or as if they're still children under their parents protection.

If your daughter is 36 years old I think they're a bit too old for their Dad to be controlling who's looking at them or how they behave

It has absolutely nothing to do with controlling the women and everything to do with holding the men to account when they're being gross old pervs. I know people struggle to get their heads around that, the vast majority of people (especially blokes). Therein lies the problem. I don't judge women for taking advantage of this as a source of money in the slightest, including media objectification, OnlyFans, full porn, even outright prostitution (yes they are all different degrees of the same thing). But I find it eternally grim that it IS a source of money.

I've not once and never will say, "These women shouldn't be selling this as a product or making money from it".

I wll never stop saying "I wish it wasn't a viable career path, because I wish the world wasn't full of the sort of men who are buying it".

I also know it never will be.

But that doesn't mean I'll ever say "Aww it's OK lads it's normal; go ahead."

It shouldn't be normalised. It's sad, and gross. I get why people have a visceral objection to that opinion, if they happen to have a creepy gaze themselves, or a wandering hand. Tough.

[user104658]

I also have zero comprehension of why you think adults can't be exploited, but that's a whole different debate.

[user104658]

Sorry what age are you 'smelly old gits', honestly you really haven't got a leg to stand on at this stage, women want to walk on stage promoting the sponsor wearing a dress, and gasp showing a bit of cleavage .... sorry Mr Victorian or should I call you Mr Burkah, but yeah its going to happen :hee: Walking around in a dress is not sex work....no matter how you twist it

The man who doesn’t think women have the agency to control their own body and do the careers they want to do calls everyone else misogynists

I'll just direct you both to the above post. I have no issue with the women who are making money from this. I just wish there was no money to make from it. You seem to be happy with a world full of the men who are paying ... ... except when you aren't on another topic? You don't get to pick and choose, if you want a world full of better men and by some miracle it happens, then there will be no walk on girls, and no OnlyFans, because no one will be reaching into their pockets whilst thinking with their dicks. It's really THAT simple.

And to say that the casual objectification of women (e.g. in this case, darts walk on girls) has "nothing to do with" the porn and prostitution industries, or to deny that those industries are rife with exploitation of (mostly) young (mostly) women? Come on. It's just objectively the reality of the situation.

[Livia]

:laugh:

I'm actually with Quantum Boy on this issue.

While I'm not in favour of women being objectified, I wouldn't go so far as to agree with Quantum Boy who seems to have quite lost his mind over the issue, to the point of name-calling.

[Crimson Dynamo]

https://i2-prod.dailystar.co.uk/incoming/article28841082.ece/ALTERNATES/s615b/1_William-Hill-World-Darts-Championship-Day-Eight-Alexandra-Palace.jpg
https://www.thesun.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/NINTCHDBPICT000456392695.jpg?strip=all&w=709

The Jackpot only has eyes for his 'arras

what a pro

[Cherie]

I also have zero comprehension of why you think adults can't be exploited, but that's a whole different debate.

Most adults are exploited very day at work, some more than others....minimum wage ....poor working conditions, unhelpful management and on it goes

[Cherie]

I'll just direct you both to the above post. I have no issue with the women who are making money from this. I just wish there was no money to make from it. You seem to be happy with a world full of the men who are paying ... ... except when you aren't on another topic? You don't get to pick and choose, if you want a world full of better men and by some miracle it happens, then there will be no walk on girls, and no OnlyFans, because no one will be reaching into their pockets whilst thinking with their dicks. It's really THAT simple.

And to say that the casual objectification of women (e.g. in this case, darts walk on girls) has "nothing to do with" the porn and prostitution industries, or to deny that those industries are rife with exploitation of (mostly) young (mostly) women? Come on. It's just objectively the reality of the situation.


Do you have any issue with women who perform on stage in skimpy outfits and open their legs during dance routines for example Beyonce?

[jet]

QB/TS, I don’t know what sort of company you keep, or what sports premises you hang around in to observe such behaviour but your description of men when attractive adult women appear is totally offensive to decent blokes everywhere.

slimey old geezers
smelly old gits
dirty old men
gross old pervs.
fat bastards drinking beer
sad gammons
gross, perving trogs.
hand in their pants
ogling sleazeballs.
letching nonces,

An adult man appreciating an adult woman’s attractiveness wherever they appear isn’t sleazy, it’s normal. It’s also normal to not sit there and fume about objectification, we just carry on with our day/evening, our lives. Nobody got hurt.
Sure, there are sleazeballs out there. Some. You either seem to know them all or your unhinged imagination is running away with you.

[user104658]

Most adults are exploited very day at work, some more than others....minimum wage ....poor working conditions, unhelpful management and on it goes

I agree with you, but I'm not sure what your point is? Everyone is exploited, so why should we worry about a bit more? I disagree fundamentally. I don't think wage-slavery exploitation is OK either but that's not what the thread is about.

Do you have any issue with women who perform on stage in skimpy outfits and open their legs during dance routines for example Beyonce?

I don't have an issue with the women who are darts walk on girls so the question is loaded. If the women on stage are dressing how they want to dress because they like it and feel good then that's great. If they're doing it to sell more records to men twice their age then I find it marginally depressing; but I doubt that's their core fanbase. Apparently there's still some confusion about who and what I have an issue with here; it's not women making money or women showing skin.

QB/TS, I don’t know what sort of company you keep, or what sports premises you hang around in to observe such behaviour but your description of men when attractive adult women appear is totally offensive to decent blokes everywhere.

slimey old geezers
smelly old gits
dirty old men
gross old pervs.
fat bastards drinking beer
sad gammons
gross, perving trogs.
hand in their pants
ogling sleazeballs.
letching nonces,

An adult man appreciating an adult woman’s attractiveness wherever they appear isn’t sleazy, it’s normal. It’s also normal to not sit there and fume about objectification, we just carry on with our day/evening, our lives. Nobody got hurt.
Sure, there are sleazeballs out there. Some. You either seem to know them all or your unhinged imagination is running away with you.

50 year old men "appreciating" women half their age may be "normal" in the sense that it seems like a hell of a lot of men do it and are defensive of it but it's neither inevitable nor aspirational (how defensive the middle age+ men on here are about the whole issue is ... sure something :umm2: ).

The fact that it's commoditised and commercialised for sports shows? Yes I stand by all of the above. Gross/letching/ogling etc. there's no other way to describe it and -- as TiBB is so fond of reminding everyone -- it's not OK to go around telling people how they should and shouldn't think. Pls respect my opinion that it's disgusting :hee:.

As a final thought? Your argument that "no one gets hurt" by the pervasive objectification of women in society - and yes tbh young people in general in society (objectification of young men in for example Hollywood is rife too) - is extremely naive and demonstrably false. A lot of people get hurt. In lots of different ways. Mostly women, mostly teens/young adults, sooo it's unsurprising that as usual no one really cares and happily trots off to mindlessly drift through their banal evening with nary a thought bothering them beyond what's for dinner.

I almost envy it, really.

[jet]

QB/TS Goody, I'm not 50 yet. Yay! You can spew all you want about gross pervy smelly old fat gammon gits but if anyone participates in the thread and disagrees with your opinion they are being defensive? Okay. :joker:

Do you not find a younger attractive woman nice to look at? Why not?

Do you automatically think that those that do are ‘perving’ and are actually ‘turned on’ - which couldn’t be further from the truth personally. There is a huge difference between simply appreciating a woman’s assets and being sexually aroused. Can you describe to me how you assume all these men you have observed are actually ogling and letching and want to have their ‘hand in their pants’, as you say?
What are they doing? Are they wriggling in their seats with massive hard - ons? Then I can look out for it the next time I go to one of my classic car events because seemingly I’ve been oblivious.
By the way, I was specifically referring to the women at sports events, (not the more damaging issues of objectification) how exactly are they being hurt?

[Cherie]

QB/TS Goody, I'm not 50 yet. Yay! You can spew all you want about gross pervy smelly old fat gammon gits but if anyone participates in the thread and disagrees with your opinion they are being defensive? Okay. :joker:

Do you not find a younger attractive woman nice to look at? Why not?

Do you automatically think that those that do are ‘perving’ and are actually ‘turned on’ - which couldn’t be further from the truth personally. There is a huge difference between simply appreciating a woman’s assets and being sexually aroused. Can you describe to me how you assume all these men you have observed are actually ogling and letching and want to have their ‘hand in their pants’, as you say?
What are they doing? Are they wriggling in their seats with massive hard - ons? Then I can look out for it the next time I go to one of my classic car events because seemingly I’ve been oblivious.
By the way, I was specifically referring to the women at sports events, (not the more damaging issues of objectification) how exactly are they being hurt?

Once you hit 50 as a WHITE male you turn into a gammon, a perve, smelly, someone who ogles younger women, a letch.....sorry if you just enjoy watching working class darts but its just something that comes with the territory, same with football, you tend to go home and beat your partner if your side loses, I have told Mr C he needs to do better as he doesn't seem to be following any of these rules

[Crimson Dynamo]

https://digitalsynopsis.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/reflections-of-the-past-tom-hussey-1.jpg

[user104658]

The endless, endless conflation of simply "finding women attractive" and "objectifying and commodifying women".

They're not the same thing.

If people can't even get their head around that basic concept, I'm not surprised the rest isn't making sense.

[user104658]

Once you hit 50 as a WHITE male you turn into a gammon, a perve, smelly, someone who ogles younger women, a letch.....sorry if you just enjoy watching working class darts but its just something that comes with the territory

Not automatically - only if you actually do those things :). It's not inevitable. Not everyone has rock bottom standards and expectations.

same with football, you tend to go home and beat your partner if your side loses, I have told Mr C he needs to do better as he doesn't seem to be following any of these rules

Is this because I pointed out the actual known fact that domestic violence incidences increase on "big match weekends"? Something that's known and well understood by professionals who work with victims of domestic violence? Are you deliberately misrepresenting that and poo-pooing away actual, verified, statistical fact for TiBB points Cherie? Classy stuff.

[Cherie]

Not automatically - only if you actually do those things :). It's not inevitable. Not everyone has rock bottom standards and expectations.



Is this because I pointed out the actual known fact that domestic violence incidences increase on "big match weekends"? Something that's known and well understood by professionals who work with victims of domestic violence? Are you deliberately misrepresenting that and poo-pooing away actual, verified, statistical fact for TiBB points Cherie? Classy stuff.


I would hazard a guess that men who beat up their partners dont actually need a particular excuse..... its not like they go home and think ooo we won today will give it a miss..... what is not classy is looking down your nose at working class people and stereotying them at every opportunity

[Mystic Mock]

I agree with you, but I'm not sure what your point is? Everyone is exploited, so why should we worry about a bit more? I disagree fundamentally. I don't think wage-slavery exploitation is OK either but that's not what the thread is about.



I don't have an issue with the women who are darts walk on girls so the question is loaded. If the women on stage are dressing how they want to dress because they like it and feel good then that's great. If they're doing it to sell more records to men twice their age then I find it marginally depressing; but I doubt that's their core fanbase. Apparently there's still some confusion about who and what I have an issue with here; it's not women making money or women showing skin.



50 year old men "appreciating" women half their age may be "normal" in the sense that it seems like a hell of a lot of men do it and are defensive of it but it's neither inevitable nor aspirational (how defensive the middle age+ men on here are about the whole issue is ... sure something :umm2: ).

The fact that it's commoditised and commercialised for sports shows? Yes I stand by all of the above. Gross/letching/ogling etc. there's no other way to describe it and -- as TiBB is so fond of reminding everyone -- it's not OK to go around telling people how they should and shouldn't think. Pls respect my opinion that it's disgusting :hee:.

As a final thought? Your argument that "no one gets hurt" by the pervasive objectification of women in society - and yes tbh young people in general in society (objectification of young men in for example Hollywood is rife too) - is extremely naive and demonstrably false. A lot of people get hurt. In lots of different ways. Mostly women, mostly teens/young adults, sooo it's unsurprising that as usual no one really cares and happily trots off to mindlessly drift through their banal evening with nary a thought bothering them beyond what's for dinner.

I almost envy it, really.

I will be blunt about this, so if I offend anyone then fair enough.

Men and women (even if they're as old as 90) are more likely to find people in their twenties and thirties more attractive than someone that's 50/60 years old.

That's just how Human Beings are wired in general, basically nature taking it's course.

[Crimson Dynamo]

7 pages in and no one is batting for quantum soldier toy boy

rather says it all...

:skull:

[user104658]

Isn't it telling when some people believe so strongly that the point and purpose of posting on a forum, is to get as many people patting them on the back as possible. Telling and tragic.

[Kate!]

7 pages in and no one is batting for quantum soldier toy boy

rather says it all...

:skull:

I get where he's coming from :shrug:

[user104658]

I get where he's coming from :shrug:

I'm choosing to believe that there are a few people who agree with the gist of the message, just not my... Umm... Methods of engagement...

[Crimson Dynamo]

I get where he's coming from :shrug:

Kate did you also not call Pete Waterman the steam rail pop guy a hero?

[Mystic Mock]

Kate did you also not call Pete Waterman the steam rail pop guy a hero?

What's up with Pete Waterman?

[Beso]

What is glaringly obvious to me is we have all missed the point of the walk on girls..

We must look at who the darts world is trying to draw to the game, and I believe we have the darts poster boy, Luke luttler who isnt even 18 yet. So for me darts are trying to get a younger audience, therefore, these 36 year old milf, walk on girls are there for the horny teenagers to ogle , in an effort to draw the closer to the sport..

[Livia]

I'm choosing to believe that there are a few people who agree with the gist of the message, just not my... Umm... Methods of engagement...

You're not a genius. You're not always right. Being insulting doesn't do anything to make your point.

[Niamh.]

I'm choosing to believe that there are a few people who agree with the gist of the message, just not my... Umm... Methods of engagement...[emoji106]

[user104658]

What is glaringly obvious to me is we have all missed the point of the walk on girls..

We must look at who the darts world is trying to draw to the game, and I believe we have the darts poster boy, Luke luttler who isnt even 18 yet. So for me darts are trying to get a younger audience, therefore, these 36 year old milf, walk on girls are there for the horny teenagers to ogle , in an effort to draw the closer to the sport..

Now, you see, I can accept that you may be right there (I don't know enough about darts to say if they're trying to attract younger players and a younger fan base - so I'll accept that as true if people interested in the sport are saying that's the case).

The overall point doesn't change though. If they need to use "you'll get to walk on with the sexy ladies!" to advertise draw a younger demographic to the sport, instead of just the merits of the game itself, then that's gross gutter-capitalism. It's straight out of some smokey 80's ad exec room. "If the product doesn't stand on its own two feet, it can stand on these boobies!"

And the sad thing is, the other thing I've learned from some of the more level-headed posts on this thread if they're correct.. Is that it isn't even needed. The sport has been drawing a new audience just fine without this. Totally unnecessary, probably the brainchild of a few old farts near the top and no one had the gumption to stand up to their completely outdated "great idea". If anything, if they're trying to further legitimise darts as a serious sport for serious young sports people, this does the exact opposite. Fires it right back into the realm of beer bellies and slippy pub floors. The impression that people have not been happy at all that I, as a non fan, have of the sport. It's doing nowt to improve the image.

All that said - one thing your post doesn't explain if you're right - is why it's only being done for the seniors game. Is that the one that's going to draw in the young lads?

You're not always right. Being insulting doesn't do anything to make your point.

No one is always right, and I agree on the second point too, I'd obviously not do it to the extent I do here anywhere but on this sort of forum, but in my defense, that's because of countless years of experience that very few people on this forum have any interest whatsoever in the point being made. So it's not to make a point. In this case, it's simply to express my very real disgust at a certain objectifying mindset. I'm not trying to change opinions on here, most days I've no particular time for battering my head against a brick wall.

[user104658]

If you want some real irony - I'm actually passingly decent at throwing a few darts and my older sister's been in a mixed pub league since she was 20 (so over 20 years) :joker:

They don't have walk on girls though :hee:

[Niamh.]

If you want some real irony - I'm actually passingly decent at throwing a few darts and my older sister's been in a mixed pub league since she was 20 (so over 20 years) :joker:

They don't have walk on girls though :hee:

Yeah, see that's my issue with it. It must feel a bit **** for your sister to be trying to be taken seriously as a female player while watching the only women on "the big stage" being paraded around the men like decorations

[Beso]

Yeah, see that's my issue with it. It must feel a bit **** for your sister to be trying to be taken seriously as a female player while watching the only women on "the big stage" being paraded around the men like decorations

What do you mean, the only women on the big stage.?

I could name about 5 top flight female darts players who can mix it with the men, and have done for about 5 years now.

[Niamh.]

What do you mean, the only women on the big stage.?



I could name about 5 top flight female darts players who can mix it with the men, and have done for about 5 years now.That's still very few tbf Parm. I just don't like it in general in sports when women are already mocked and looked down on.. Again, not specifically with Darts, just generally

[Cherie]

Yeah, see that's my issue with it. It must feel a bit **** for your sister to be trying to be taken seriously as a female player while watching the only women on "the big stage" being paraded around the men like decorations

Thats not true though, womens darts is very popular and they are televised and women have been playing with men for years now Fallon Sherrock is probably the stand out but there are more up and coming

[Niamh.]

Thats not true though, womens darts is very popular and they are televised and women have been playing with men for years now Fallon Sherrock is probably the stand out but there are more up and coming

It's popular ish. I stand by my point that walk on girls do female players a dis service in being taken seriously, as do ring girls in UFC. Agree with me or disagree, your choice but I firmly believe that to be true regardless :shrug:

[Livia]

It's popular ish. I stand by my point that walk on girls do female players a dis service in being taken seriously, as do ring girls in UFC. Agree with me or disagree, your choice but I firmly believe that to be true regardless :shrug:

I agree. But I don't think every man who likes to see the walk on girls is a perverted, beer-swilling wife beater as has been suggested on this thread.

[Cherie]

It's popular ish. I stand by my point that walk on girls do female players a dis service in being taken seriously, as do ring girls in UFC. Agree with me or disagree, your choice but I firmly believe that to be true regardless :shrug:

But you could say the same for cheerleaders or dancers for a artist, each to their own, if they are happy doing it, I dont think people look at these women and compare them to women in sport at least I dont, they are separate entities

Even without the walk on girls there are still pom pom girls on the stage dancing as the darts players walk on these are trained dancers who are being paid to do what they love I guess

[Cherie]

I agree. But I don't think every man who likes to see the walk on girls is a perverted, beer-swilling wife beater as has been suggested on this thread.

add white to that....:laugh: gammon only refers to white men we all know that

[Niamh.]

I agree. But I don't think every man who likes to see the walk on girls is a perverted, beer-swilling wife beater as has been suggested on this thread.

I'm not even going down that road, for me it's definitely about sports and how it really doesn't help female sports in general. It just gives more leverage to those with the opinion that women in sport don't belong unless they're there for men's amusement

[Livia]

add white to that....:laugh: gammon only refers to white men we all know that

Oh yes... Gammon. One of the permitted racist slurs.

[Niamh.]

But you could say the same for cheerleaders or dancers for a artist, each to their own, if they are happy doing it, I dont think people look at these women and compare them to women in sport at least I dont, they are separate entities

Even without the walk on girls there are still pom pom girls on the stage dancing as the darts players walk on these are trained dancers who are being paid to do what they love I guess

Geez, just have a read off comments on YouTube or Twitter to see that isn't true.

Cheerleaders are dancers and pretty athletic and also have men on their squads a lot of times. So at least they're doing more than just lookimg nice.

[Liam-]

If you think female athletes are demeaned or looked down on because other women choose to do something else with their lives, then it’s you who has that view of female athletes, you can guarantee the vast majority of people who see a walk on girl, aren’t thinking that the women players should be doing that instead

[Livia]

I'm not even going down that road, for me it's definitely about sports and how it really doesn't help female sports in general. It just gives more leverage to those with the opinion that women in sport don't belong unless they're there for men's amusement

I do agree... But I think it might be an overreaction to say it cheapens women in sport. A womens rugby team was recently required to be photographed in lingerie to raise some money for the club. I thought that was far more sexist than getting someone whose only legally chargeable skill is walking in front of some darts players.

[Niamh.]

If you think female athletes are demeaned or looked down on because other women choose to do something else with their lives, then it’s you who has that view of female athletes, you can guarantee the vast majority of people who see a walk on girl, aren’t thinking that the women players should be doing that instead

No I certainly don't have that view of female athletes.

[Niamh.]

I do agree... But I think it might be an overreaction to say it cheapens women in sport. A womens rugby team was recently required to be photographed in lingerie to raise some money for the club. I thought that was far more sexist than getting someone whose only legally chargeable skill is walking in front of some darts players.

Oh yeah I saw that. Awful

[Livia]

If you think female athletes are demeaned or looked down on because other women choose to do something else with their lives, then it’s you who has that view of female athletes, you can guarantee the vast majority of people who see a walk on girl, aren’t thinking that the women players should be doing that instead

Irritating to see a gay man telling women what they should be thinking. Especially in view of your support of trans women's rights.

[Liam-]

No I certainly don't have that view of female athletes.

You’re literally saying it cheapens women and demeans the female athletes, so yes, you do have that view, I don’t, do I think there needs to be ring girls? No, do I think their presence lessens the legitimacy of female athletes or puts a bad image on them? Again, no, but you seem to and that’s not very girl power of you

[user104658]

I agree. But I don't think every man who likes to see the walk on girls is a perverted, beer-swilling wife beater as has been suggested on this thread.

No one mentioned wife beating in relation to this thread at all until Cherie brought up "match day" domestic violence, which I'd mentioned in another thread, weeks ago, and is a very real and well understood issue that every domestic violence service and police force in the country is well aware of. I have no idea why people are so keen to dismiss it as untrue. It just is, factually, real. Clearly it caught in Cherie's throat at the time and it was brought up here weeks later in a totally different context, you'd have to ask her for the reason for that.

Men enjoying ogling women half their age is gross, organisations exploiting the fact that they do for advertising/profit is 10x more gross. I'm not going to change my opinion on either of those things. And they do play into a general public mindset that is ultimately damaging. There's ample evidence that it isn't "harmless".

add white to that....:laugh: gammon only refers to white men we all know that

Slightly baity because it'll take the whole thing right off topic but you're simply wrong. Gammon is a term that makes people uncomfortable and that's why I use it when I use it. I'm well aware that the issue is male objectification if women, not "teh white men", for example there's a massive problem with males in Muslim communities and their attitudes towards women and girls, and the way they view western women and girls (extreme objectification and dehumanisation plays heavily into the issue of grooming gangs, for example). I've said all of this, clearly and openly, in threads on those topics but you fairly consistently ignore those posts and misrepresented me as "only having an issue with white men" so this isn't unusual Cherie. As you were.

If you think female athletes are demeaned or looked down on because other women choose to do something else with their lives, then it’s you who has that view of female athletes, you can guarantee the vast majority of people who see a walk on girl, aren’t thinking that the women players should be doing that instead

I'm only going to take one final swipe at this because again, brick wall, Liam simply doesn't understand the distinction -- this (none of this) has anything at all to do with the choices being made by women.

[Cherie]

Geez, just have a read off comments on YouTube or Twitter to see that isn't true.

Cheerleaders are dancers and pretty athletic and also have men on their squads a lot of times. So at least they're doing more than just lookimg nice.

I dont read comments people love to be nasty on social media just because they can, after seeing what can happen to women i.e Afghanistan I more than welcome women being able to do whatever they want given it is with their own free will, fashion models are only hired if the look nice and that goes for both men and women, you wont see too many adverts with people with facial disfigurements unless it is to raise awareness or something, personally I think the walk on girls are being brought back to promote betting rather than anything else

[Niamh.]

You’re literally saying it cheapens women and demeans the female athletes, so yes, you do have that view, I don’t, do I think there needs to be ring girls? No, do I think their presence lessens the legitimacy of female athletes or puts a bad image on them? Again, no, but you seem to and that’s not very girl power of you

Well, you're not female Liam so you wouldn't really understand what women have to deal with on an ongoing basis from men. You really think you telling me I'm not for "girl power " is some sort of goal for you? [emoji38] um OK I guess, boo for me

[Cherie]

No one mentioned wife beating in relation to this thread at all until Cherie brought up "match day" domestic violence, which I'd mentioned in another thread, weeks ago, and is a very real and well understood issue that every domestic violence service and police force in the country is well aware of. I have no idea why people are so keen to dismiss it as untrue. It just is, factually, real. Clearly it caught in Cherie's throat at the time and it was brought up here weeks later in a totally different context, you'd have to ask her for the reason for that.

Men enjoying ogling women half their age is gross, organisations exploiting the fact that they do for advertising/profit is 10x more gross. I'm not going to change my opinion on either of those things. And they do play into a general public mindset that is ultimately damaging. There's ample evidence that it isn't "harmless".

[B]It only resonated with me because of your snobbish attitude towards football and now darts because they are working class sports, there are plenty wife beaters in other walks life who are not or never have been working class, you will always be working class QB no matter what job you have ....sorry you cant escape your roots no matter how much you try to distance yourself

Slightly baity because it'll take the whole thing right off topic but you're simply wrong. Gammon is a term that makes people uncomfortable and that's why I use it when I use it. I'm well aware that the issue is male objectification if women, not "teh white men", for example there's a massive problem with males in Muslim communities and their attitudes towards women and girls, and the way they view western women and girls (extreme objectification and dehumanisation plays heavily into the issue of grooming gangs, for example). I've said all of this, clearly and openly, in threads on those topics but you fairly consistently ignore those posts and misrepresented me as "only having an issue with white men" so this isn't unusual Cherie. As you were.


Do you have a slur you use for non whites?


I'm only going to take one final swipe at this because again, brick wall, Liam simply doesn't understand the distinction -- this (none of this) has anything at all to do with the choices being made by women.

Why do you have so many issues with sports with working class roots, you do not follow sport so jog on maybe?

[Niamh.]

I dont read comments people love to be nasty on social media just because they can, after seeing what can happen to women i.e Afghanistan I more than welcome women being able to do whatever they want given it is with their own free will, fashion models are only hired if the look nice and that goes for both men and women, you wont see too many adverts with people with facial disfigurements unless it is to raise awareness or something, personally I think the walk on girls are being brought back to promote betting rather than anything else

Whether women want to be hired for that job or not wasn't really the point I was arguing here though.

[Liam-]

I’m happy in the knowledge that I don’t look down on woman for what they choose to do in their careers, also that I don’t put women’s careers against each other, or think they’re naive beings who don’t really understand anything if they chose a career that I don’t like.

It’s nice to know that people are happy to discredit peoples opinions based on their gender and sexuality though, I guess the journey to ‘true’ feminism brings out the biases in people

[Cherie]

This is an interesting read from 2017 but still

Darts is now one of Sky’s best-performing sports and the broadcaster has dedicated a whole channel to the World Championship, Sky Sports Darts, every year since the 2015 event.

However, it’s not all about top-line numbers, as the UK broadcast coverage is also attracting a younger audience: the 2016 World Championship coverage on Sky drew a 3% year-on-year increase of viewers from the 25-34 age group, a 1% decrease in viewers from the D/E social demographic, and an 8% increase in viewers from the C1/C2 social demographic. A third of the darts audience on Sky over the last four years has also been female.

These figures are important – and music to the ears of the darts fraternity – because there is a stereotype often directed at darts that its fanbase is made up of older men from the working classes. That may still be true to a certain extent, but it’s audience is certainly shifting to a more diverse demographic make-up – which was seen first hand during the 2015 World Championship when Prince Harry was pictured enjoying a night’s action at Ally Pally.

t’s also worth stressing this isn’t solely a UK phenomenon – both the PDC World Championship and darts more generally are enjoying strong growth on TV in key markets across the globe. The Netherlands is darts’ strongest TV market outside the UK, while eyes should be directed towards Canada, which experienced triple-digit TV viewership growth for the sport in 2016 compared to 2015.

https://www.sportindustry.biz/news-categories/features/opinion-darts-broader-audience-you-think/

[Niamh.]

I’m happy in the knowledge that I don’t look down on woman for what they choose to do in their careers, also that I don’t put women’s careers against each other, or think they’re naive beings who don’t really understand anything if they chose a career that I don’t like.

It’s nice to know that people are happy to discredit peoples opinions based on their gender and sexuality though, I guess the journey to ‘true’ feminism brings out the biases in people

You're great 👍

[Nicky91]

This is an interesting read from 2017 but still

Darts is now one of Sky’s best-performing sports and the broadcaster has dedicated a whole channel to the World Championship, Sky Sports Darts, every year since the 2015 event.

However, it’s not all about top-line numbers, as the UK broadcast coverage is also attracting a younger audience: the 2016 World Championship coverage on Sky drew a 3% year-on-year increase of viewers from the 25-34 age group, a 1% decrease in viewers from the D/E social demographic, and an 8% increase in viewers from the C1/C2 social demographic. A third of the darts audience on Sky over the last four years has also been female.

These figures are important – and music to the ears of the darts fraternity – because there is a stereotype often directed at darts that its fanbase is made up of older men from the working classes. That may still be true to a certain extent, but it’s audience is certainly shifting to a more diverse demographic make-up – which was seen first hand during the 2015 World Championship when Prince Harry was pictured enjoying a night’s action at Ally Pally.

t’s also worth stressing this isn’t solely a UK phenomenon – both the PDC World Championship and darts more generally are enjoying strong growth on TV in key markets across the globe. The Netherlands is darts’ strongest TV market outside the UK, while eyes should be directed towards Canada, which experienced triple-digit TV viewership growth for the sport in 2016 compared to 2015.

https://www.sportindustry.biz/news-categories/features/opinion-darts-broader-audience-you-think/

haven't watched darts in many many years honestly, wouldn't know if we are still strongest market outside the UK

[Livia]

No one mentioned wife beating in relation to this thread at all until Cherie brought up "match day" domestic violence, which I'd mentioned in another thread, weeks ago, and is a very real and well understood issue that every domestic violence service and police force in the country is well aware of. I have no idea why people are so keen to dismiss it as untrue. It just is, factually, real. Clearly it caught in Cherie's throat at the time and it was brought up here weeks later in a totally different context, you'd have to ask her for the reason for that.

Men enjoying ogling women half their age is gross, organisations exploiting the fact that they do for advertising/profit is 10x more gross. I'm not going to change my opinion on either of those things. And they do play into a general public mindset that is ultimately damaging. There's ample evidence that it isn't "harmless".



Slightly baity because it'll take the whole thing right off topic but you're simply wrong. Gammon is a term that makes people uncomfortable and that's why I use it when I use it. I'm well aware that the issue is male objectification if women, not "teh white men", for example there's a massive problem with males in Muslim communities and their attitudes towards women and girls, and the way they view western women and girls (extreme objectification and dehumanisation plays heavily into the issue of grooming gangs, for example). I've said all of this, clearly and openly, in threads on those topics but you fairly consistently ignore those posts and misrepresented me as "only having an issue with white men" so this isn't unusual Cherie. As you were.



I'm only going to take one final swipe at this because again, brick wall, Liam simply doesn't understand the distinction -- this (none of this) has anything at all to do with the choices being made by women.


You're such a literalist... until it suits you not to be.

Much, much too long a mitigation when I've seen for myself what you've said and how insulting you've been.

[Livia]

I’m happy in the knowledge that I don’t look down on woman for what they choose to do in their careers, also that I don’t put women’s careers against each other, or think they’re naive beings who don’t really understand anything if they chose a career that I don’t like.

It’s nice to know that people are happy to discredit peoples opinions based on their gender and sexuality though, I guess the journey to ‘true’ feminism brings out the biases in people

You constantly discredit women. Unless they're trans women. So your opinion on anything to do with females is cancelled out by your own prejudice.

[user104658]

Why do you have so many issues with sports with working class roots, you do not follow sport so jog on maybe?

I have no issue at all with the sports Cherie I have the issue with the often-violent subcultures that emerge around them, and anyone who does care about the image of those sports would - I imagine - have an issue with it too, rather than defending it or refusing to acknowledge that it's a problem.

[user104658]

You're such a literalist... until it suits you not to be.

Much, much too long a mitigation when I've seen for myself what you've said and how insulting you've been.

There's not much to say on that other than "we're on TiBB". Is that a bit of a flippant stance? Maybe? There's no one here that doesn't basically understand what I mean. This isn't the place for serious discussions, not ever, we all know that. Sometimes I have the energy for it, mostly I've just accepted that this is a platform for venting biases like everyone else here does constantly. The funny thing is we do also enjoy being critical of each other for that.

It could have been better, I say that plenty. It just plainly isn't. The options are accepting the platform for what it is, or not coming on at all.

[Beso]

I do agree... But I think it might be an overreaction to say it cheapens women in sport. A womens rugby team was recently required to be photographed in lingerie to raise some money for the club. I thought that was far more sexist than getting someone whose only legally chargeable skill is walking in front of some darts players.

If this is the GB rugby squad, it was to highlight something, and not to raise money for the squad.

[user104658]

If this is the GB rugby squad, it was to highlight something, and not to raise money for the squad.

Is this suggesting that rugby is viewed somehow differently/note favourably?

Because University rugby teams are literally the biggest heap of utter bellends I've yet to encounter, anywhere, at all, in my entire life. The actual worst.

[Beso]

Is this suggesting that rugby is viewed somehow differently/note favourably?

Because University rugby teams are literally the biggest heap of utter bellends I've yet to encounter, anywhere, at all, in my entire life. The actual worst.

I wont be answering anymore questions from you until you answer the one I asked you

[user104658]

I wont be answering anymore questions from you until you answer the one I asked you

I'm not going to check back so you'll need to repeat it.

[Beso]

I'm not going to check back so you'll need to repeat it.

Do you find the walk on girls sexy?

[user104658]

Do you find the walk on girls sexy?

I did answer that and said that I don't find anything about it sexy in the slightest. I'm sorry if that's not the answer you want?

Are you asking if I think they're objectively good looking? I'm sure I'd think some of them are, some of them aren't. I don't find 20 year olds sexy or attractive in any way. I fundamentally disagree with the premise that older men will "always" be more attracted to younger women. Girls in their 20's look like teenagers to me. There's nothing sexy about that. I saw it differently when I was Mock's age, because they weren't much younger than me. I find the picture posted of the old man looking in the mirror and seeing himself as a young man in his 20's (and thus excusing being still attracted to much younger women) a false and abhorrent thing to normalise about men. We ain't all like that. The idea that we "secretly are" is BS.

But apparently some of them are older so maybe I'd agree that some of them are attractive? I doubt they all look the same? How can anyone say that every last one is attractive/sexy :umm2:... What a wide net to cast. It's always going to be subjective.

Even if I did think they were attractive, seeing the walk-on darts parade would be immediately and completely un-sexy.

If you're really that nosy about what gets me going though Parmy, for some reason... Here it is - what I find sexy has nothing to do with anything you can gatger from a picture or seeing someone on telly. So even the age-appropriate ones, I can't tell you if I think they're "sexy". I haven't met them.

That's all a bit long winded so here's the short answer;

"Do I look at darts walk on girls and think ooh how sexy"

The answer is "no".

[Crimson Dynamo]

Everyone knows this is the Senior's tour, which is all about nostalgia and that is why they have brought the girls back for this tour only

They are trying to recreate the darts for the 80s etc



right?

[thesheriff443]

I did answer that and said that I don't find anything about it sexy in the slightest. I'm sorry if that's not the answer you want?

Are you asking if I think they're objectively good looking? I'm sure I'd think some of them are, some of them aren't. I don't find 20 year olds sexy or attractive in any way. I fundamentally disagree with the premise that older men will "always" be more attracted to younger women. Girls in their 20's look like teenagers to me. There's nothing sexy about that. I saw it differently when I was Mock's age, because they weren't much younger than me. I find the picture posted of the old man looking in the mirror and seeing himself as a young man in his 20's (and thus excusing being still attracted to much younger women) a false and abhorrent thing to normalise about men. We ain't all like that. The idea that we "secretly are" is BS.

But apparently some of them are older so maybe I'd agree that some of them are attractive? I doubt they all look the same? How can anyone say that every last one is attractive/sexy :umm2:... What a wide net to cast. It's always going to be subjective.

Even if I did think they were attractive, seeing the walk-on darts parade would be immediately and completely un-sexy.

If you're really that nosy about what gets me going though Parmy, for some reason... Here it is - what I find sexy has nothing to do with anything you can gatger from a picture or seeing someone on telly. So even the age-appropriate ones, I can't tell you if I think they're "sexy". I haven't met them.

That's all a bit long winded so here's the short answer;

"Do I look at darts walk on girls and think ooh how sexy"

The answer is "no".

Isn’t your step mum the same age or younger than you ?

What was your dad when he m t her and how old was she ?

[user104658]

Isn’t your step mum the same age or younger than you ?

What was your dad when he m t her and how old was she ?

About 6 years older, and she was in her late 30's and him in his late 50's.

If he'd been picking up 20 year olds I'll be frank and say I'd have been very, very concerned and most likely would have cut contact.

Again though, everyone is extremely distracted by the age part of things here when that's really a sub-plot in this thread, I've said 4 or 5 times that it isn't better that the women are in their 30's, and it wouldn't be better if they were in their 40's, or 50's, or any other age bracket.

Id just the old lads a little less if it was older women, but the thing itself would still be objectifying and damaging. I wouldn't judge the organisers any less. It's not just gross "because of their age".

[Beso]

I did answer that and said that I don't find anything about it sexy in the slightest. I'm sorry if that's not the answer you want?

Are you asking if I think they're objectively good looking? I'm sure I'd think some of them are, some of them aren't. I don't find 20 year olds sexy or attractive in any way. I fundamentally disagree with the premise that older men will "always" be more attracted to younger women. Girls in their 20's look like teenagers to me. There's nothing sexy about that. I saw it differently when I was Mock's age, because they weren't much younger than me. I find the picture posted of the old man looking in the mirror and seeing himself as a young man in his 20's (and thus excusing being still attracted to much younger women) a false and abhorrent thing to normalise about men. We ain't all like that. The idea that we "secretly are" is BS.

But apparently some of them are older so maybe I'd agree that some of them are attractive? I doubt they all look the same? How can anyone say that every last one is attractive/sexy :umm2:... What a wide net to cast. It's always going to be subjective.

Even if I did think they were attractive, seeing the walk-on darts parade would be immediately and completely un-sexy.

If you're really that nosy about what gets me going though Parmy, for some reason... Here it is - what I find sexy has nothing to do with anything you can gatger from a picture or seeing someone on telly. So even the age-appropriate ones, I can't tell you if I think they're "sexy". I haven't met them.

That's all a bit long winded so here's the short answer;

"Do I look at darts walk on girls and think ooh how sexy"

The answer is "no".




So it's your snobbery that thinks everyone else does.:shrug:

[Crimson Dynamo]

About 6 years older, and she was in her late 30's and him in his late 50's.

If he'd been picking up 20 year olds I'll be frank and say I'd have been very, very concerned and most likely would have cut contact.

Again though, everyone is extremely distracted by the age part of things here when that's really a sub-plot in this thread, I've said 4 or 5 times that it isn't better that the women are in their 30's, and it wouldn't be better if they were in their 40's, or 50's, or any other age bracket.

Id just the old lads a little less if it was older women, but the thing itself would still be objectifying and damaging. I wouldn't judge the organisers any less. It's not just gross "because of their age".

What age are the women characters in all the PS5 games you play

hopefully most will be 40s 50s and 60s?

I just checked one you like to Play called Until Dawn

here is a main character

https://image.civitai.com/xG1nkqKTMzGDvpLrqFT7WA/a391b0fb-70bf-44b2-b09c-c1d503cb4864/width=700,original=false/00127-838533915.jpeg

[Kazanne]

i don't watch darts so it doesn't affect me ,I just wonder why ?

[Crimson Dynamo]

Here are some "female" characters from another game you love

FFXV

https://ladygeekgirl.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/ffxv-female-characters.png

[bots]

i don't watch darts so it doesn't affect me ,I just wonder why ?

i don't watch it cause it's boring, i don't know why you don't watch :laugh:

[user104658]

So it's your snobbery that thinks everyone else does.:shrug:

I've not once said that everyone else does? The ones who like the walk on girls being there/argue that it's something that should continue are the ones I have an issue with. Plenty of people I'm sure couldn't give a sht if they're there or not. It's an outdated misogynistic practice that belongs in the past. People who agree with that will be fine with putting an end to it, people who aren't bothered either way will be fine with putting an end to it... The only ones who will have an issue with stopping it are the ones who actively enjoy it. Ogling.

Of course you'll get some who are simply stuck on the idea that "it's traditional!" and just don't like any sort of change in general but is there even any reason to go down that path. It's just not a good enough reason by far. Bin it off.

[Kazanne]

i don't watch it cause it's boring, i don't know why you don't watch :laugh:

:laugh::laugh: I meant i wonder why they need the walk on girls again,lol. and yes I find it boring too

[Crimson Dynamo]

:laugh::laugh: I meant i wonder why they need the walk on girls again,lol. and yes I find it boring too

I take it you don't watch love island for the sparkling conversations

:laugh:

[Glenn.]

What happened? Did they discover that not many people want to watch fat bastards drinking beer and throwing darts on telly if its not sugared up with some objectification?

Shhhh you’ll trigger one. Oh never mind

[arista]

I’m happy in the knowledge that I don’t look down on woman for what they choose to do in their careers, also that I don’t put women’s careers against each other, or think they’re naive beings who don’t really understand anything if they chose a career that I don’t like.

It’s nice to know that people are happy to discredit peoples opinions based on their gender and sexuality though, I guess the journey to ‘true’ feminism brings out the biases in people


Of Course
Slick Liam.

These Fit Young Women
want the work,
back again.

[user104658]

Of Course
Slick Liam.

These Fit Young Women
want the work,
back again.

There you go Liam. I can feel the empowerment from here.

[Liam-]

Yes, women taking control of their lives and their circumstances is objectively empowerment

[Beso]

I've not once said that everyone else does? The ones who like the walk on girls being there/argue that it's something that should continue are the ones I have an issue with. Plenty of people I'm sure couldn't give a sht if they're there or not. It's an outdated misogynistic practice that belongs in the past. People who agree with that will be fine with putting an end to it, people who aren't bothered either way will be fine with putting an end to it... The only ones who will have an issue with stopping it are the ones who actively enjoy it. Ogling.

Of course you'll get some who are simply stuck on the idea that "it's traditional!" and just don't like any sort of change in general but is there even any reason to go down that path. It's just not a good enough reason by far. Bin it off.



And the ladies themselves, the ladies will have issues with it being cancelled. Dont you think?

[user104658]

Yes, women taking control of their lives and their circumstances is objectively empowerment

Taking advantage of the fact that certain men will pay them good money for their visual gratification (mild in this case more obvious in the case of onlyfans etc) is certainly understandable, but there's nothing at all empowering about the fact that being able to do so -- entirely, by the very nature of what it is -- relies on men viewing women as a commodity that can be bought and sold.

If they did not, there would be no market for them to make money from. The market exists and there's a lot of money to be made from it, I will say that it is at least better when women are making that money directly and the bulk of it isn't going to someone elses' pocket (usually a male pocket), but 1) that isn't even the case here, they're being paid a flat fee and the bulk of any money generated is going to rich male execs and 2) in an ideal, empowered world, there would be NO MARKET to make money from. It's not about their actions in a world where that market does exist.

If you can explain to me why and how a world where it's possible to make money this way is a net positive I'd love to hear it. You seem totally stuck on that world being an inevitablility and thus it being empowering that women can "make the most of that".

[Mystic Mock]

I'm choosing to believe that there are a few people who agree with the gist of the message, just not my... Umm... Methods of engagement...

Personally I do find your opinion on this topic to be too extreme for my personal taste.

I would understand your issue with this more if Darts was making them wear really obscene outfits, and that the main event of the Sport is to basically become Porn.

[Mystic Mock]

Yeah, see that's my issue with it. It must feel a bit **** for your sister to be trying to be taken seriously as a female player while watching the only women on "the big stage" being paraded around the men like decorations

The one slippery slope that could happen (but I don't believe that it will) is if the Senior Darts has a popular reaction to the Walk On Girls, then the Sport might try to make it's female competitors also dress up in a more sexy manner to draw in an audience that doesn't really care about the game, and against the wishes of a lot of the female Darts players.

[Mystic Mock]

I do agree... But I think it might be an overreaction to say it cheapens women in sport. A womens rugby team was recently required to be photographed in lingerie to raise some money for the club. I thought that was far more sexist than getting someone whose only legally chargeable skill is walking in front of some darts players.

Was the entire women's Rugby team obliged to do that? If so then that's bad, because some of them will have been coerced into doing it.

[Mystic Mock]

I did answer that and said that I don't find anything about it sexy in the slightest. I'm sorry if that's not the answer you want?

Are you asking if I think they're objectively good looking? I'm sure I'd think some of them are, some of them aren't. I don't find 20 year olds sexy or attractive in any way. I fundamentally disagree with the premise that older men will "always" be more attracted to younger women. Girls in their 20's look like teenagers to me. There's nothing sexy about that. I saw it differently when I was Mock's age, because they weren't much younger than me. I find the picture posted of the old man looking in the mirror and seeing himself as a young man in his 20's (and thus excusing being still attracted to much younger women) a false and abhorrent thing to normalise about men. We ain't all like that. The idea that we "secretly are" is BS.

But apparently some of them are older so maybe I'd agree that some of them are attractive? I doubt they all look the same? How can anyone say that every last one is attractive/sexy :umm2:... What a wide net to cast. It's always going to be subjective.

Even if I did think they were attractive, seeing the walk-on darts parade would be immediately and completely un-sexy.

If you're really that nosy about what gets me going though Parmy, for some reason... Here it is - what I find sexy has nothing to do with anything you can gatger from a picture or seeing someone on telly. So even the age-appropriate ones, I can't tell you if I think they're "sexy". I haven't met them.

That's all a bit long winded so here's the short answer;

"Do I look at darts walk on girls and think ooh how sexy"

The answer is "no".

I agree with you that what people find attractive is subjective, as are most things really.

The thing that I will say (and maybe it's just me) but how many people in their 60's are going to find other people in their 60's the most attractive? With all due respect but that's not really very likely as Human Beings in general I don't believe work like that.

[Niamh.]

Deleted some posts in here about banned members.

[Oliver_W]

Deleted some posts in here about banned members.

Only once you had your say :hehe: :nono:

[Niamh.]

Only once you had your say :hehe: :nono:Yes and I shouldn't have that's why I deleted them :hee:

[Beso]

Just watched this darts documentary.

https://youtu.be/Al8lNsPhOis?si=TpDwSdvBrHBZgZhM

Interesting that darts way back in the beer swilling smoke filled arenas didnt have walk on girls. It was only the introduction of satellite tv, a new thing for the young up and coming "things can only get better"1990s brigade that started that perverted nonsense.
Quantum Boy

[bots]

the good old days when the men were totally bladdered and it was a real sport :laugh: