Term-time holiday fine rise won't stop us, say parents

[Benjamin]

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/62d6/live/5158e990-6b4d-11ef-8c32-f3c2bc7494c6.jpg.webp
Megan and Michael Hall said another fine would not stop them taking their children on a term-time holiday

More pupils in England were off school without permission in the last week of the summer term than at any point in the academic year, official figures show.

The latest school attendance data shows 5% of pupils in England were off without permission in the week ending 19 July - around 450,000 pupils.

It comes as the government tightens rules to try to stop parents taking their children out of school to go on holiday.

Fines issued to each parent have gone up from £60 to £80 per child which will be doubled if it happens again within three years. Those with a third fine in a three-year period now face prosecution.

But some parents have told the BBC this is not a deterrent.

Megan Hall and her husband Michael got their first fines after taking their two children on a ski holiday in March and have now booked a two-week holiday later this month.

“The kids will be missing 10 days of school, which is a worry because of the new fines," Mrs Hall told the BBC.

The couple run a pub and bed and breakfast in Northumberland and said if they took their children - aged four and eight - away during their busy summer season they would incur a cost to their business as well as higher holiday prices.

"I won't stop doing holidays because that's what family is about," said Mrs Hall.

“The alternative is to not have family time, or to teach your kids to lie, saying they are sick, which is something I’m not happy to do," she added.

Nearly 400,000 penalty notices were issued to parents in England for unauthorised school absences during the 2022-23 academic year. That is much higher than pre-pandemic levels and unauthorised absences have remained at a similar rate over the most recent academic year.

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/3cfc/live/fcd1c1b0-6ab3-11ef-b43e-6916dcba5cbf.png.webp

Rachel Kelly and her partner took their children out of primary school in May and are waiting for a fine to be issued.

“You don’t want to take them out of school during term time,” she added. “But if it means it's going to save you thousands of pounds then that’s the best alternative.

"If I can save [money on a holiday] to go towards bills then you are going to do that, it seems to be the sensible option.”

She said fines and prosecutions are "a risk that we’re willing to take".

Holidaying during term time is substantially cheaper and travel agents say they have seen an increase in enquiries from families weighing up the price difference.

Long haul flights in particular can double during the six-week summer holiday, according to data from the Flight Centre, the fifth largest travel agency in the world.

It gave the BBC examples of price rises between term-time and the summer holidays:

* Thailand: Term-time £554, summer holidays £1,112

* New York: Term-time £586, summer holidays £942

*Orlando: Term-time £556, summer holidays £754

According to Colman Coyne, managing director of travel agency Jetset in Huddersfield an increasing number of families have been looking for holidays during term time.

“Going back three, four years ago it was very rare that we would find a family with school age children travelling outside the Easter, half terms and summer holidays.

"We see now it’s quite a regular thing. And you can see they’re weighing up whether it’s worth risking a fine.”

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/8de5/live/4ed69270-6ab3-11ef-8c32-f3c2bc7494c6.png.webp

For Dee and Lee Morgan, who have been fined six times in recent years, the new threat of prosecution means they will now stick to school holidays for getaways with their children aged 10 and 13.

“I’m angry we’re having to do this. Life’s hard enough,” said Dee, who is a nurse.

“Money’s tight, things are going up, we all have to go to work, we deserve a holiday - everybody deserves a holiday - why do they have to make it hard?”

“We’re being victimised…everyone has rights, I have rights and they’re my children and it’s my right to take them on holiday."

The Education Secretary Bridget Phillipson has previously said: “Parents have a legal responsibility to make sure their child is in school, so they benefit from the high and rising standards this government will seek to drive.”

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5ykz4nr11no

[Beso]

Family time is much more important.

[Ammi]

…there really isn’t too much lesson structure in the last week of term for most children so I would say that last week was one of the best times for children to miss school in terms of education…they may want to be part of the end of term ‘fun stuff’ but thats really something that parents will discuss with their children …the couple with the B and B in Northumberland…?…I would have thought that their profession of having to be at their business during peak holiday times would mean that they were on the list of exemption’s….and would be given permission by the LA…

[smudgie]

No sympathy.
Fines should be even higher.
Find something you can afford in the holidays instead of taking the kids out of school.

[arista]

No sympathy.
Fines should be even higher.
Find something you can afford in the holidays instead of taking the kids out of school.


Yes triple them

[bots]

It's not like there are only school holidays during the summer, they are really only at school for 4 or 5 weeks at a time these days. I could understand it if the summer break was the only available vacation in the school year

[Niamh.]

Family time is much more important.

I agree generally speaking, obviously if they're taking them out multiple times a year it's different but for one holiday? Meh

[Niamh.]

It's not like there are only school holidays during the summer, they are really only at school for 4 or 5 weeks at a time these days. I could understand it if the summer break was the only available vacation in the school year

They hike up the prices on flights and accommodation on every school holiday though not just summer

[UserSince2005]

just another tax

[bots]

They hike up the prices on flights and accommodation on every school holiday though not just summer

they hike the price up based on demand, a bit like Oasis tickets :laugh:

If people were smart they would stagger their trips, rather than jumping on a plane at every holiday :laugh:

[joeysteele]

I've no children so this isn't the wisest thing for me to comment on.

I don't agree with fines however for the odd absence for holidays although I can see the likely need for it repeatedly done.

I'm reminded of a neighbour, years ago, whose Uncle lived in Florida.
Who had a cancer diagnosis and knew it was months he had left in reality.
He wanted to treat his family and their children to a visit to Disneyland.
So they went for 3 weeks taking the children out of school.

They did get fined and paid up.
However I think that's pretty low and despicable in the circumstances.
The Uncle sadly passed away in July, that year, so it couldn't have even been possible in August.

Plus, in the current cost of living crisis still very much evident.
Looking at lowering all costs is important for all families.
Maybe school holidays could be split into another 2 three week periods rather than one long break in August particularly.

[Niamh.]

they hike the price up based on demand, a bit like Oasis tickets :laugh:

If people were smart they would stagger their trips, rather than jumping on a plane at every holiday :laugh:

Well yeah I know how it works.

They don't fine people like that over here anyway, here if your kids are out of school for way too many days with no valid reason over the whole year you might get taken to court about it and maybe fined if the court orders it, which is a better system imo

[Ammi]

…it’s one of those things that individual schools have mixed/individual policies with as well, which can make it quite difficult when they’re often local schools…so for instance, you may have a younger sibling at primary and that school having a policy that they don’t notify local authority below a 5 day absence…but there could be an older sibling at another school locally with their policy being a half a day and they notify local authority…I use that as an example because it’s one that applies locally here…there is no fixed rule because as User says, it really is just another form of tax, isn’t it…and again, if any cases do go to courts, it’s very much a discretion so court thing of who is making the decision that day…

[Ammi]

…another reason why children are taken out of school for family holidays is that they don’t live with both parents but both parents want to individually holiday with their children so organising that and work schedules etc isn’t always possible in holiday time, so term time has to be crossed over as well…

[Ammi]

…also…:laugh:…both parents are fined, whether they’re custodial parenting or not and it’s really hugely unfair for one separated parent to be fined for something that they’ve had no part in the decision making of…which I’ve known happen quite frequently…the custodial parent has taken a child out of school for a family get together/occasion and the non custodial parent has had the fine to pay, also…they obviously can appeal and will most likely not have to pay but why should they have lengthy forms to complete etc…

[Niamh.]

…also…:laugh:…both parents are fined, whether they’re custodial parenting or not and it’s really hugely unfair for one separated parent to be fined for something that they’ve had no part in the decision making of…which I’ve known happen quite frequently…the custodial parent has taken a child out of school for a family get together/occasion and the non custodial parent has had the fine to pay, also…they obviously can appeal and will most likely not have to pay but why should they have lengthy forms to complete etc…

Oh wow that is unfair, imagine having to pay a fine because your ex went on holiday :laugh:

[Ammi]

…our head has always said…I can’t give you my official blessing for the holiday but have a great time….family time is the most important thing…

[Niamh.]

…our head has always said…I can’t give you my official blessing for the holiday but have a great time….family time is the most important thing…

Good for them :love:

[Ammi]

Oh wow that is unfair, imagine having to pay a fine because your ex went on holiday :laugh:

…yeah, it really isn’t geared up in consideration of the child and their education…as User said, it’s geared up as another form of taxing…

[bots]

there is no one size fits everyone across a whole country, so its a really difficult one

The other side of it is if the authorities give an inch, they will take a mile. They have to have a system, legally enforced, where children are educated or there would be too many other things they could usefully be doing, like earning money for the family

[Quantum Boy]

People aren't going to be arsed about fines if the cost of the fine is less thanwhat the increased cost of the trip would be :think:.

I do also find that there's a bit of a basic misunderstanding about attendance and school performance. They see a correlation between "attending" and "getting good grades" and think that kids get good grades BECAUSE they have good attendance, when it's pretty much the other way around. Kids who are not performing well generally (because of, say, home troubles, or just not being academically minded) are less likely to want to attend, and thus more likely to have poor attendance. It's not because "hours spent in school" dramatically increases outcomes. Obviously if a kid has VERY poor attendance they're not going to do well but anything above like 80% and major differences in grades are not going to be down to how many days off they had. A kid on track for good grades can take weeks off and still be ahead of their peers. There's no real uniformity (excuse the pun) to it.

[Ammi]

there is no one size fits everyone across a whole country, so its a really difficult one

The other side of it is if the authorities give an inch, they will take a mile. They have to have a system, legally enforced, where children are educated or there would be too many other things they could usefully be doing, like earning money for the family


…I do know that with our local education authority, they haven’t been on board with fines either and will say that the courts quite often won’t even go to any type of hearing because they find it all such a bad use of any official time…im not sure where the fine money goes tbh…it definitely isn’t the individual school or the local education authority…

[Ammi]

People aren't going to be arsed about fines if the cost of the fine is less thanwhat the increased cost of the trip would be :think:.

I do also find that there's a bit of a basic misunderstanding about attendance and school performance. They see a correlation between "attending" and "getting good grades" and think that kids get good grades BECAUSE they have good attendance, when it's pretty much the other way around. Kids who are not performing well generally (because of, say, home troubles, or just not being academically minded) are less likely to want to attend, and thus more likely to have poor attendance. It's not because "hours spent in school" dramatically increases outcomes. Obviously if a kid has VERY poor attendance they're not going to do well but anything above like 80% and major differences in grades are not going to be down to how many days off they had. A kid on track for good grades can take weeks off and still be ahead of their peers. There's no real uniformity (excuse the pun) to it.


…(…my personal opinion…)…is that the most potentially damaging to a child attendance is regular persistent late attendance…as arriving with the other children and having register etc together…rather than walking into an ongoing class alone on a regular basis…?..can be so self esteem/confidence damaging…all children settling down together to any task is quite important…

[Quantum Boy]

…(…my personal opinion…)…is that the most potentially damaging to a child attendance is regular persistent late attendance…as arriving with the other children and having register etc together…rather than walking into an ongoing class alone on a regular basis…?..can be so self esteem/confidence damaging…all children settling down together to any task is quite important…

My controversial opinion is that the single most damaging thing for children with good potential, is the insistence on mixed-ability classes. I also don't think it's good for kids of lower ability in the way people insist it is, either. The idea is that being mixed means they're more likely to "keep up" with higher performing peers... the reality as I see it, is that the best performing kids are consistently held back by the pace of work accommodating "everyone" - and the kids struggling to keep up become demotivated because there are kids in their class finding things a walk in the park when they're finding it extremely difficult.

[Niamh.]

My controversial opinion is that the single most damaging thing for children with good potential, is the insistence on mixed-ability classes. I also don't think it's good for kids of lower ability in the way people insist it is, either. The idea is that being mixed means they're more likely to "keep up" with higher performing peers... the reality as I see it, is that the best performing kids are consistently held back by the pace of work accommodating "everyone" - and the kids struggling to keep up become demotivated because there are kids in their class finding things a walk in the park when they're finding it extremely difficult.

It's done in secondary schools here by ability, not primary though

[Ammi]

My controversial opinion is that the single most damaging thing for children with good potential, is the insistence on mixed-ability classes. I also don't think it's good for kids of lower ability in the way people insist it is, either. The idea is that being mixed means they're more likely to "keep up" with higher performing peers... the reality as I see it, is that the best performing kids are consistently held back by the pace of work accommodating "everyone" - and the kids struggling to keep up become demotivated because there are kids in their class finding things a walk in the park when they're finding it extremely difficult.

…oh yes, controversial indeed …but my ‘most damaging’ thought was specifically regarding attendance/related only…that’s another conversation and most definitely a controversial one also…

[Livia]

Considering the amount of holidays teachers have I'm mystified when kids are off school because of an InSeT day. Surely doing this training in term time damages kids' learning as much as the kids taking time off in term time.

[Benjamin]

they hike the price up based on demand, a bit like Oasis tickets :laugh:

If people were smart they would stagger their trips, rather than jumping on a plane at every holiday :laugh:

I used to work in the travel industry , and even if people staggered trips say during summer holidays they would still be more expensive as it’s a peak time.

For example I can get flights to Tenerife at most times of the year for £60-80 return (I have the luxury of being able to go away when I want to). Whereas the same flights during summer holidays (end June - start sep) rocket up to £280 - £500 even months in advance.

[Glenn.]

Wouldn’t be so bad if the kids were actually missing decent education.

I’m all for parents doing what they want where this is concerned. A kid can learn more in a week on holiday than 6 months in school

[Beso]

Wouldn’t be so bad if the kids were actually missing decent education.

I’m all for parents doing what they want where this is concerned. A kid can learn more in a week on holiday than 6 months in school

You do talk sense sometimes..

[AnnieK]

What pissed me off recently was when all the schools were striking, my son lost a total of 5 days schooling. Had I taken him out of school for a holiday for 5 days, I would have been fined but there was no come back from school on parent's who had to lose a days wage to stay at home with younger ones whilst they were on strike.

I know loads of people who will continue to take them out of school for holidays until someone gets to grip with the travel industry and regulates the price hikes. Demand or not, they take the piss.

Having said all that, I have never taken my son out since he was in reception and I did then but you don't get fined if its in reception :laugh:
He has had 100% attendance since then though