Cold Case : Who Killed JonBenét Ramsey

[Niamh.]

Most people are probably familiar with this one, anyone watching? I've just put on Ep 1, such an awful case, poor little girl

57g0BpF3EuY

[UserSince2005]

Pointless documentary, everyone knows she is now Katy Perry.

[Niamh.]

Pointless documentary, everyone knows she is now Katy Perry.

:laugh: I hadn't heard that one before

[Cherie]

I was aware of the case, but never of the circumstances around it, what the police put that family through was pretty despicable

[Ammi]

…did you finish watching it…?…I guess, although there are obviously many differences…this was kind of a Madeleine McCann case of it’s time in that the main questioning was…was it someone who came into where she was and took her or was it a ‘closer to home’ thing….i think that I recall the brother being implicated at some point but that must have gone cold as it’s still a cold case…but yeah, I know it’s not a direct comparison in some ways but it does have the vein of being the Madeleine McCann case of the time in some regards…

[Cherie]

The DNA under her fingernails did not match the family, nor the guy who said he did it, though they ruled him out but not the family...bizarre

[Ammi]

…tbh, I don’t know very much about the case other than general media stuff…I haven’t watched the series yet but I’ll try to get round to doing that at some point…I was reading an article of ‘8 possible suspects’…but that was a 2016 article and I don’t know what/if new evidence has emerged since then with updated forensics we have now…anyway…this 8 suspects were her mother, her father, her brother, Gary Oliva- ‘the town drifter’, Ollie Gray, a local electrician…John Mark Kerr…I think he confessed…?…, Linda Hoffman-Pugh - the family Housekeeper, Bill McReynolds - the ‘Town Santa’….

…it’s a bizarre case as well because if this was some type of ‘stalker killer’…a psychopath personality etc…did they never kill again…did they only ever kill JonBenet…that feels unlikely…so an ‘accidental’ killing…?…

[Cherie]

…tbh, I don’t know very much about the case other than general media stuff…I haven’t watched the series yet but I’ll try to get round to doing that at some point…I was reading an article of ‘8 possible suspects’…but that was a 2016 article and I don’t know what/if new evidence has emerged since then with updated forensics we have now…anyway…this 8 suspects were her mother, her father, her brother, Gary Oliva- ‘the town drifter’, Ollie Gray, a local electrician…John Mark Kerr…I think he confessed…?…, Linda Hoffman-Pugh - the family Housekeeper, Bill McReynolds - the ‘Town Santa’….

…it’s a bizarre case as well because if this was some type of ‘stalker killer’…a psychopath personality etc…did they never kill again…did they only ever kill JonBenet…that feels unlikely…so an ‘accidental’ killing…?…

I didn't know much about it either but not to give too much away I think when you watch the documentary you will see how she was murdered could not have been accidental ...also it is unlikely a 10 year old boy her brother could have carried it out ....the also said her mother did it in a fit of rage, but again that doesn't quiet add up...to me anyway

[arista]

[it’s a bizarre case as well because if this was
some type of ‘stalker killer’…a psychopath
personality etc…did they never kill again]


With so many FBI and Cops on the case
how he will not be killing little girls
for a while....................

[Ammi]

I didn't know much about it either but not to give too much away I think when you watch the documentary you will see how she was murdered could not have been accidental ...also it is unlikely a 10 year old boy her brother could have carried it out ....the also said her mother did it in a fit of rage, but again that doesn't quiet add up...to me anyway

…yeah, I think the thing with her mother and the ‘fit of rage’ theory is that no one appears to have ever seen her in a fit of rage, so as you say….that seems unlikely…I guess that the ‘most likely’…(…and again, I’m going in blind because I know very little of the story/details etc….)…would be John Mark Karr, the school teacher who confessed to having killed her…plus apparently knew some details about JonBenet’s murder that had not yet been made public…also had, had child pornography charges against him…

[Ammi]

[it’s a bizarre case as well because if this was
some type of ‘stalker killer’…a psychopath
personality etc…did they never kill again]


With so many FBI and Cops on the case
how he will not be killing little girls
for a while....................

…yeah of course, Arista…it was a very public case but so have been many ‘serial killer’ cases that have still gone on to kill more victims…

[Vanessa]

…yeah, I think the thing with her mother and the ‘fit of rage’ theory is that no one appears to have ever seen her in a fit of rage, so as you say….that seems unlikely…I guess that the ‘most likely’…(…and again, I’m going in blind because I know very little of the story/details etc….)…would be John Mark Karr, the school teacher who confessed to having killed her…plus apparently knew some details about JonBenet’s murder that had yet been made public…also had, had child pornography charges against him…

He seems the most likely suspect to me

[Vicky.]

I don't see how it could be a stranger or random pedo when you take the 'ransom note' into consideration.

I remember reading about this years back and my theory was it was the brother, and the parents helped cover it up so they didn't lose both kids. But watching Burke on doctor Phil made me doubt that a bit. Interesting case tho

[Vanessa]

I don't see how it could be a stranger or random pedo when you take the 'ransom note' into consideration.

I remember reading about this years back and my theory was it was the brother, and the parents helped cover it up so they didn't lose both kids. But watching Burke on doctor Phil made me doubt that a bit. Interesting case tho
The brother is so weird.

[Vicky.]

https://www.thisisbigbrother.com/forums/showthread.php?t=310241

My essay about the brother..so weird looking back on your old threads :laugh:

[Cherie]

Most people are probably familiar with this one, anyone watching? I've just put on Ep 1, such an awful case, poor little girl

57g0BpF3EuY

Did you finish this Niamh? any thoughts?

[Niamh.]

Did you finish this Niamh? any thoughts?

I have about 20 minutes of the last episode to go, I'll finish it at lunch time and get back to you

[Niamh.]

I had looked into this case before on a Podcast I listen to, I know that people really thought Burke had something to do with it as well, maybe even more so than the parents (or at least that he accidentally killed her and they covered it up) but

I just couldn't imagine the parents sexually abusing her as a way to cover up for Burke, that's mental to me

[Vicky.]

I think the sexual abuse was a separate topic, and maybe to do with the party the night before .

[Niamh.]

I think the sexual abuse was a separate topic, and maybe to do with the party the night before .

But

If it was from the night before how come the same paintbrush that was used to abuse her was also used as the handle on the garrote? seems like all these things happened that night, wasn't there blood found on her underwear which would mean it happened that night?

[Vicky.]

But

If it was from the night before how come the same paintbrush that was used to abuse her was also used as the handle on the garrote? seems like all these things happened that night, wasn't there blood found on her underwear which would mean it happened that night?

I didn't know that part, or had forgotten it. Think I need to watch this and rewatch the CBS one too.

[Niamh.]

I didn't know that part, or had forgotten it. Think I need to watch this and rewatch the CBS one too.

I think The Netflix doc is a bit biased towards the family not being involved because as far as I remember I thought it was more of a possibility before this one (it's easy to forget details though) although the one I listened to before may have been more biased in the opposite direction

[Niamh.]

Found an old thread you started about it actually Vicky

https://www.thisisbigbrother.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8993523&highlight=jonbent+ramsey#post8993523

[Vicky.]

Yea linked that earlier :laugh:

[Niamh.]

Yea linked that earlier :laugh:

Oh sorry totally missed that post duh

[Ammi]

…I’ve got a bit of free time so I think that I’ll start watching this now…

[Niamh.]

Did you finish this Niamh? any thoughts?

Ok just finished it

Definitely don't think that the family were involved, I see at the end they decided that the DNA might have been contaminated. I honestly think it was that guy John Mark Kerr. He seems like the type that would write a letter like the ransom note was too, rambling and stupid

[Ammi]

…wow at John Ramsey’s older daughter being killed in,a car accident as well…that’s something I hadn’t known, it’s terribly tragic how much loss the family have had in their lives…

[Cherie]

Ok just finished it

Definitely don't think that the family were involved, I see at the end they decided that the DNA might have been contaminated. I honestly think it was that guy John Mark Kerr. He seems like the type that would write a letter like the ransom note was too, rambling and stupid

I agree, the manner in which she was killed would hopefully rule out family members and also why would they not move the body as the house would be the first place to be searched, John Mark Kerr knew aspects of the case that were never made public but it appears the police were so keen on sticking to the theory that it was the family did this that they ignored it, interesting as well that both cases resulted in compensation to the family and to Burke

[Niamh.]

I agree, the manner in which she was killed would hopefully rule out family members and also why would they not move the body as the house would be the first place to be searched, John Mark Kerr knew aspects of the case that were never made public but it appears the police were so keen on sticking to the theory that it was the family did this that they ignored it, interesting as well that both cases resulted in compensation to the family and to Burke

Exactly, the theory about Burke hitting her and causing the head injury and then her parents doing the rest to cover it up is just such an outlandish and macabre stretch. That they would sexually abuse and torture her to hide the fact her brother hit her is just so grotesque and that people believed it as well with literally no evidence is crazy. I'm not saying it's beyond the realms of possibility to say they might have covered for their son but I mean, say she fell down the stairs or something, there would have been zero need for all the rest. John Marks confession and the details he went into sounds more like the kind of sick mind that would do that to a 6 year old.
I feel so bad Patsy died so young as well with nothing resolved and all that horriblness hanging over their lives

[Niamh.]

I wonder if they ever

Took a sample of John Mark Kerrs hand writing to compare to the ransom note?

[Ammi]

…The special report televised ‘Trial of the Ramsey’s’ was outrageous and completely trivialising the brutal murder of a child for what felt like entertainment/sensationalist value…and that they intimated in that, that JonBenet was being exploited and sexualised, while if that was what they felt, they were then all doubling down on that…

[Niamh.]

…The special report televised ‘Trial of the Ramsey’s’ was outrageous and completely trivialising the brutal murder of a child for what felt like entertainment/sensationalist value…and that they intimated in that, that JonBenet was being exploited and sexualised, while if that was what they felt, they were then all doubling down on that…

The 90's and even early 00's were awful for those kind of talk shows. I'm not a fan of those pageant's for children at all I might add but I don't think Patsy did it with bad intent, she was involved in that world herself and probably just saw it as sharing her interest. I do think that unfortunately for JonBenét it may have been what made her noticed by the sick person who did what he did to her though

[Niamh.]

of course now I'm falling back down the rabbit hole of this case once again, I had forgotten about


the pineapple in JonBenét's stomach that they think she must have eaten around 11pm-12am which the parents say they never gave her however they found a bowl with Pineapple and milk on the counter with only Burkes finger prints, I think this was where the Burke killed her theory stemmed from, that he made himself the snack after his parents went to bed (they got home around 10pm) JonBenét got up and grabbed some from his bowl, he gets annoyed and hits her causing the head injury and then the parents or just Patsy cover it up

[Alf]

:laugh: I hadn't heard that one beforeThat's because you don't drive down the correct lane on the conspiracy theory super highway.

You need to change lanes from time to time. I know you've got an interest in a good conspiracy theory.

[Niamh.]

That's because you don't drive down the correct lane on the conspiracy theory super highway.

You need to change lanes from time to time. I know you've got an interest in a good conspiracy theory.

I won't lie Alfred I do love a good conspiracy from time to time :laugh:

[Ammi]

The 90's and even early 00's were awful for those kind of talk shows. I'm not a fan of those pageant's for children at all I might add but I don't think Patsy did it with bad intent, she was involved in that world herself and probably just saw it as sharing her interest. I do think that unfortunately for JonBenét it may have been what made her noticed by the sick person who did what he did to her though

…no, child pageantry is something that I’m uncomfortable with as well…but it was a popular thing in the US at that time../…I’m not sure if that’s still the case in present times..so the leap from child pageantry and any sexualisation involved in that and sexually abusive parents/father was just bizarre…also that lady who was involved in the TV Trial thing…saying that JonBenet was ‘masterbating with the saxophone’…when she was dancing a rhythm and imitating playing a saxophone…it’s just incredible how much the parents were being implicated on really fabricated stuff and judgement of others…I do agree about Patsy, I think her intent was good…JonBenet possibly wanted to be a ‘beauty queen’ like her mom had been when she was younger and after Patsy’s aggressive cancer….?…she obviously didn’t know if she would see her daughter grow up so I think that was a deciding factor, possibly…that she was able to make that ‘beauty queen’ journey now with her daughter…ironically and tragically, she was correct…she never got to see JonBenet grow into adulthood…but not for the reason she would have thought and ironically also…as you say…that decision for JonBenet to take part in pageantry may have been something that led to her brutal death…

[Alf]

I won't lie Alfred I do love a good conspiracy from time to time :laugh:You should be ashamed that I've took over you as Tibbs number 1 conspiracy theorist.

And I don't plan on relinquishing my title.

[Niamh.]

…no, child pageantry is something that I’m uncomfortable with as well…but it was a popular thing in the US at that time../…I’m not sure if that’s still the case in present times..so the leap from child pageantry and any sexualisation involved in that and sexually abusive parents/father was just bizarre…also that lady who was involved in the TV Trial thing…saying that JonBenet was ‘masterbating with the saxophone’…when she was dancing a rhythm and imitating playing a saxophone…it’s just incredible how much the parents were being implicated on really fabricated stuff and judgement of others…I do agree about Patsy, I think her intent was good…JonBenet possibly wanted to be a ‘beauty queen’ like her mom had been when she was younger and after Patsy’s aggressive cancer….?…she obviously didn’t know if she would see her daughter grow up so I think that was a deciding factor, possibly…that she was able to make that ‘beauty queen’ journey now with her daughter…ironically and tragically, she was correct…she never got to see JonBenet grow into adulthood…but not for the reason she would have thought and ironically also…as you say…that decision for JonBenet to take part in pageantry may have been something that led to her brutal death…

Oh yeah that bit about the saxophone was absolutely ridiculous, honestly said more to me about that woman's mind than anything else

You should be ashamed that I've took over you as Tibbs number 1 conspiracy theorist.

And I don't plan on relinquishing my tite.

:laugh: That's ok, Alf, I enjoy reading yours

[Vicky.]

Just finished this..idk what to think as it seemed biased which I guess all shows are. Now rewatching the CBS one which may have been biased the opposite way!

[Niamh.]

Just finished this..idk what to think as it seemed biased which I guess all shows are. Now rewatching the CBS one which may have been biased the opposite way!Yeah I think the CBS one focused mainly on the Burke theory from what I've read

[Ammi]

Just finished this..idk what to think as it seemed biased which I guess all shows are. Now rewatching the CBS one which may have been biased the opposite way!

…same as you really, Vicky……and aghhhhhhhh, it being revealed so close to the end that the DNA might have been pointless evidence anyway/might have been in some way contaminated etc….… but really, I don’t know what to think ……and I didn’t understand how they were still speculating that her brother had hit over the head with the torchlight for taking some of his cereal and accidentally killed her… when it was already established that she was alive when the paint brush garrotte was used…John Mark Karr is still the most likely suspect, I feel…if the DNA wasn’t accurate and his could have matched…because I don’t know how he would have known some details if he didn’t kill her…

[Ammi]

…one thing that I forgot to say……the ransom note and the ransom itself are surely very significant in leaning toward the killer to be someone who was very well known to the Ramsey’s…as in a relative or very close friend…?…$118,000 was the exact sum of John Ramsey’s Christmas bonus and an ‘irregular amount’ for a ransom demand…so that has to surely have significance in someone who knew that’s what the Christmas bonus was…it’s a very personal thing to tell someone also…

[Niamh.]

…one thing that I forgot to say……the ransom note and the ransom itself are surely very significant in leaning toward the killer to be someone who was very well known to the Ramsey’s…as in a relative or very close friend…?…$118,000 was the exact sum of John Ramsey’s Christmas bonus and an ‘irregular amount’ for a ransom demand…so that has to surely have significance in someone who knew that’s what the Christmas bonus was…it’s a very personal thing to tell someone also…

Yes or.....

If it was a paedophile intruder who went into the house while they were out that day and waited until they came home that evening they could have maybe seen some paper work, statement or something in the house showing that, maybe in Johns office? I presume he had an office in that massive house

[Vanessa]

Presumably the killer got in from the basement. One of the windows was open

[Niamh.]

Presumably the killer got in from the basement. One of the windows was open

There seems to be a lot of conflicting "evidence" on that basement window. Some people claim it was proved impossible for someone to have been able to get in and out of that window however in the Netflix show it clearly shows Detective Smit easily climbing in and out that way (and he wasn't a young man) then people say that dust around the area proves it was staged but then others say there was a muddy footprint proving it was genuinely used. I was reading up on more suspects actually and there was one guy who I believe had some sort of ongoing dispute with the ramseys over property and they had matched his footprint with one found in the basement, he later committed suicide which was odd. This guy here :

Michael Helgoth
An electrician in the area, Helgoth owned a pair of Hi-Tec boots that appeared to match a print left at the crime scene. He also owned a stun gun and detectives determined that JonBenét’s broken body showed marks from a similar device.

Helgoth also had a potential motive: he was embroiled in a property dispute with the Ramseys at the time. A private investigator hired by the Ramseys seemed to imply that authorities should focus on Helgoth.

The mystery deepened in 1997, when authorities said that they were closing in on a suspect. Two days later, Helgoth committed suicide, leading many to believe that he killed himself because charges were imminent.

But authorities told The Post that Helgoth was never a serious suspect, and his DNA did not match any that was collected at the murder scene.

https://nypost.com/2024/12/08/us-news/who-killed-jonbenet-ramsey-here-are-the-suspects-cops-have-investigated/

[Ammi]

Yes or.....

If it was a paedophile intruder who went into the house while they were out that day and waited until they came home that evening they could have maybe seen some paper work, statement or something in the house showing that, maybe in Johns office? I presume he had an office in that massive house

…yeah that’s true, the killer could have seen some paperwork…but I still feel bugged by the ransom note…I mean, it was a huge long note to write with a lot of detail…like …if you go to the police, she’ll be beheaded or whatever the wording was…and yet her body was left right there and could have been found in moments of a pointless ransom note being left…and yeah, exactly for the amount of the Christmas bonus…if it was an ‘attempted kidnap’ that went wrong, which I don’t feel is very believable with what he did to JonBenet…then he would surely have just stun gunned her and took her, taking moments to be in and out and on the way to get his ransom demand, possibly….then ransom note just doesn’t fit, does it…

[Ammi]

Presumably the killer got in from the basement. One of the windows was open

…one of the windows was broken, I think…that was something that had been done previously and not repaired…

[Ammi]

There seems to be a lot of conflicting "evidence" on that basement window. Some people claim it was proved impossible for someone to have been able to get in and out of that window however in the Netflix show it clearly shows Detective Smit easily climbing in and out that way (and he wasn't a young man) then people say that dust around the area proves it was staged but then others say there was a muddy footprint proving it was genuinely used. I was reading up on more suspects actually and there was one guy who I believe had some sort of ongoing dispute with the ramseys over property and they had matched his footprint with one found in the basement, he later committed suicide which was odd. This guy here :

Michael Helgoth
An electrician in the area, Helgoth owned a pair of Hi-Tec boots that appeared to match a print left at the crime scene. He also owned a stun gun and detectives determined that JonBenét’s broken body showed marks from a similar device.

Helgoth also had a potential motive: he was embroiled in a property dispute with the Ramseys at the time. A private investigator hired by the Ramseys seemed to imply that authorities should focus on Helgoth.

The mystery deepened in 1997, when authorities said that they were closing in on a suspect. Two days later, Helgoth committed suicide, leading many to believe that he killed himself because charges were imminent.

But authorities told The Post that Helgoth was never a serious suspect, and his DNA did not match any that was collected at the murder scene.

https://nypost.com/2024/12/08/us-news/who-killed-jonbenet-ramsey-here-are-the-suspects-cops-have-investigated/


…any DNA evidence being ruled out seems to be very unreliable ruling out, doesn’t it…