Press now free to report from family courts.

[Beso]

Really unsure about this, people may not give the whole story due to feelings of invasion on their families by the press..

[user104658]

In two minds. I don't trust the press but the way judges sometimes speak to people in family courts is absolutely shameful, and maybe (maybe?) some transparency would improve that. Along with the decisions they make.

[bots]

i think the more transparency, the better. I've never been in criminal court, but i did experience a local court where the judge behaved like a god. You really are in the lap of the gods sometimes, and if your freedoms at stake, it's scary sh!t

[user104658]

i did experience a local court where the judge behaved like a god.

Honestly a lot of family courts are like this. Extremely judgemental (...) and have a habit of completely ignoring healthcare professionals and expert witnesses basically on a whim. They grant access to extremely abusive parents regularly, even when there's been things like sexual abuse, and it's legally mandated so if you're the other parent it's tough **** - if you try to go against it, custody can be removed entirely. Terrifying stuff.

[Niamh.]

Honestly a lot of family courts are like this. Extremely judgemental (...) and have a habit of completely ignoring healthcare professionals and expert witnesses basically on a whim. They grant access to extremely abusive parents regularly, even when there's been things like sexual abuse, and it's legally mandated so if you're the other parent it's tough **** - if you try to go against it, custody can be removed entirely. Terrifying stuff.

I just can't understand this, why would you ever put the child back into an unsafe situation like this again. It make absolutely no sense, it's really cruel actually. Imagine being raped as an adult and someone forcing you to live with your rapist, it's exactly the same thing, worse even

[bots]

I just can't understand this, why would you ever put the child back into an unsafe situation like this again. It make absolutely no sense, it's really cruel actually. Imagine being raped as an adult and someone forcing you to live with your rapist, it's exactly the same thing, worse even

these judges don't think the way normal people do, they are wired differently

[user104658]

I just can't understand this, why would you ever put the child back into an unsafe situation like this again. It make absolutely no sense, it's really cruel actually. Imagine being raped as an adult and someone forcing you to live with your rapist, it's exactly the same thing, worse even

Groups like "Fathers4Justice" did a very good job of convincing the legal system that "parental alienation" is a massive threat to child development and psychological safety, and that it's much more prevalent than it actually is (the idea behind it is that one parent is deliberately "demonising" the other and limiting contact out of resentment as some sort of "punishment")... when there's very little to no evidence of this happening at all, other than in some very rare cases.

[Niamh.]

Groups like "Fathers4Justice" did a very good job of convincing the legal system that "parental alienation" is a massive threat to child development and psychological safety, and that it's much more prevalent than it actually is (the idea behind it is that one parent is deliberately "demonising" the other and limiting contact out of resentment as some sort of "punishment")... when there's very little to no evidence of this happening at all, other than in some very rare cases.

I've definitely seen parents both doing this (or at least attempting to do this with their children) and accusing a parent of doing this when they're not in an attempt to exert control over the ex and try to not look like the dead beat they are (anecdotally obviously and both sexes)

[Livia]

I'm surprised more people don't know men who have been kept away from their child for no reason other than the ex wants him out of her life. Not only have I had it in my own family, a friend of mine does pro bono work for alienated dads and he's over subscribed.

[Beso]

Yeah, its very common.

[user104658]

It's common when the dad was actually an abusive POS behind closed doors. Just because they have a good public face doesn't mean they're being unfairly targetted by "evil women" :idc:. Some people are a sucker for a sad dad with a "poor me, I done nuffin wrong" story, though.

[Glenn.]

It's common when the dad was actually an abusive POS behind closed doors. Just because they have a good public face doesn't mean they're being unfairly targetted by "evil women" :idc:. Some people are a sucker for a sad dad with a "poor me, I done nuffin wrong" story, though.

This.
My sisters ex and my nieces dad was abusive as ****. Has no part of my nieces life and doesn’t want to. He pretends to on social media though. He’s since fathered two more children that he doesn’t see and another one on the way with some other poor girl.

[Beso]

You get abusive women as well.

[user104658]

You get abusive women as well.

You don't get many parents who are going to turn down unlimited free shared childcare from a good person/responsible adult who cares for their children and when children are happy to be with them.

It's nonsense. When a child's full-time carer wants the other parent as far away as possible, there's a good reason, 99.9% of the time.

And if with this law change people do start reporting some of what's going on inside family courts, people will be shocked.

[Beso]

You also get spurned partners so bitter at being spurned that they refuse the other partner access to the child, forcing them to go through the long, stressful drawn out process of applying through the courts for access. Many men will give up and top themselves.

[Niamh.]

It's common when the dad was actually an abusive POS behind closed doors. Just because they have a good public face doesn't mean they're being unfairly targetted by "evil women" :idc:. Some people are a sucker for a sad dad with a "poor me, I done nuffin wrong" story, though.

This absolutely happens but that doesn't mean there aren't women who are just awful people out there who use their kids in that way too. I have 2 examples of this from real life. Gavins ex is one, I know he wasn't an abusive pos because I've been with him for 20 plus years, he's a fantastic dad to my son and my stepson. His ex tried her best to stop him seeing my stepson, he spent years in and of court fighting for access. Now my stepson is an adult she has no relationship with him, Gav has a great relationship with him. She has two other kids with her ex husband who she just left in his care when they were pre teens and went to live abroad with her new b/f. She's never met her only grandchild who is almost 2 years old.

I have another close male relative that's going through something similar and have seen pretty conclusive evidence that his ex is pretty unhinged and using their children too, I won't go into details in that one because it's on going stuff.

That being sad of course I've also irl seen examples of dead beat and abusive fathers using their children

You know me, I'm all for women's rights and protections but that doesn't mean that there aren't awful mothers out their trying to use their children to hurt genuinely good dads too and it is a little more common than you're saying, in my experience anyway

[Beso]

Quantum Boy

What is your actual job?

[Ammi]

This absolutely happens but that doesn't mean there aren't women who are just awful people out there who use their kids in that way too. I have 2 examples of this from real life. Gavins ex is one, I know he wasn't an abusive pos because I've been with him for 20 plus years, he's a fantastic dad to my son and my stepson. His ex tried her best to stop him seeing my stepson, he spent years in and of court fighting for access. Now my stepson is an adult she has no relationship with him, Gav has a great relationship with him. She has two other kids with her ex husband who she just left in his care when they were pre teens and went to live abroad with her new b/f. She's never met her only grandchild who is almost 2 years old.

I have another close male relative that's going through something similar and have seen pretty conclusive evidence that his ex is pretty unhinged and using their children too, I won't go into details in that one because it's on going stuff.

That being sad of course I've also irl seen examples of dead beat and abusive fathers using their children

You know me, I'm all for women's rights and protections but that doesn't mean that there aren't awful mothers out their trying to use their children to hurt genuinely good dads too and it is a little more common than you're saying, in my experience anyway

…yeah, I completely agree with this…working with and around families for many years, there are many causes and reasons for a custodial parent ‘using children’ and wanting to refuse access to an ex partner and sometimes it can be because of a domestic abuse/in safeguarding and consideration of the child…but sometimes it can be a ‘power and control’ that is used and that doesn’t benefit the child at all because the reasoning and motivation is much more negative than the child’s interest of having access to their other parent….separation/divorce…what comes before and after etc…?..can be a very bitter and damaging process and no more so than for a child…I can’t obviously tell any stories because they’re not mine to tell but it’s absolutely something that doesn’t involve any wrong doing by a parent that’s being denied access to their child…

[Ammi]

…what’s heartbreaking in having such close bonds with working with the children, is the impact on them of two ‘warring’ parents…

[user104658]

Quantum Boy

What is your actual job?

I'm not going to part-dox myself on an aggressive right-leaning forum Parmy ffs :joker:

On the rest of it all I will say is; everyone you will talk to will have their personal examples of "unfairly-maligned alienated parent" and that's exactly what's led to family courts being weaponised and effectively used to further control and abuse ex-partners, it's a horrendous situation that's been going on unchecked for a long, long time and because of exactly what this thread is about: the courts are behind closed doors, and people are not allowed to talk about what goes on there.

I could share stories with you of children screaming and wetting themselves whilst being dragged off (occasionally with police escort) for a judge-mandated weekend stay with a parent, and the other parent not only being unable to do anything about it without being arrested, but being unable to even publicly TALK about it without being in contempt of court. Real horror stories that you would not like to believe. And the argument is always that "some contact is better than none", and that the real danger is "parents not getting along".

Hopefully this will change now and some of these abuses of power will be higlighted.

[Niamh.]

…what’s heartbreaking in having such close bonds with working with the children, is the impact on them of two ‘warring’ parents…

And the problem is it only takes 1 of the parents to be unreasonable or bitter to make things awful for everyone involved and of course it is the children who are most scarred afterwards

[Niamh.]

I'm not going to part-dox myself on an aggressive right-leaning forum Parmy ffs :joker:

On the rest of it all I will say is; everyone you will talk to will have their personal examples of "unfairly-maligned alienated parent" and that's exactly what's led to family courts being weaponised and effectively used to further control and abuse ex-partners, it's a horrendous situation that's been going on unchecked for a long, long time and because of exactly what this thread is about: the courts are behind closed doors, and people are not allowed to talk about what goes on there.

I could share stories with you of children screaming and wetting themselves whilst being dragged off (occasionally with police escort) for a judge-mandated weekend stay with a parent, and the other parent not only being unable to do anything about it without being arrested, but being unable to even publicly TALK about it without being in contempt of court. Real horror stories that you would not like to believe. And the argument is always that "some contact is better than none", and that the real danger is "parents not getting along".

Hopefully this will change now and some of these abuses of power will be higlighted.

The one thing that they do differently nowadays here that they didn't do when Gavin was going through his stuff is the judges order a Section 7 report much more readily when parents seem to be at war with each other. It's basically a very detailed report carried out by professionals, extensive interviews with both parents and the children (if they're old enough) and they send this back to the judge with their own recommendations. It's a much better system then just listening to both parents in the courtroom and the judge trying to decide which one is lying.

It is very sad though when parents can't put their **** aside for the sake of their kids but like I said both of them have to do that for it to work

[Ammi]

The one thing that they do differently nowadays here that they didn't do when Gavin was going through his stuff is the judges order a Section 7 report much more readily when parents seem to be at war with each other. It's basically a very detailed report carried out by professionals, extensive interviews with both parents and the children (if they're old enough) and they send this back to the judge with their own recommendations. It's a much better system then just listening to both parents in the courtroom and the judge trying to decide which one is lying.

It is very sad though when parents can't put their **** aside for the sake of their kids but like I said both of them have to do that for it to work

…what has always been done here when the courts are involved is for agencies/multiple agencies generally to spend time in the school as well in observing the children and talking to them…and the children reveal a lot of their parent/child relationship for both both parents…

[Niamh.]

…what has always been done here when the courts are involved is for agencies/multiple agencies generally to spend time in the school as well in observing the children and talking to them…and the children reveal a lot of their parent/child relationship for both both parents…

Yeah, that's done more now here but when Gavin was going through it, it was literally a he said/she said situation in a courtroom unless it was a very extreme case where there were abuses reported etc They still have a long way to go though to make the system- well not perfect I'm not sure that's possible but as close to as they can

[Ammi]

Yeah, that's done more now here but when Gavin was going through it, it was literally a he said/she said situation in a courtroom unless it was a very extreme case where there were abuses reported etc They still have a long way to go though to make the system- well not perfect I'm not sure that's possible but as close to as they can

…yeah, it can never be a perfect system by nature of it, can it …but there are so many individual variations on each case…(…as there is with most things…)…and that all needs to be looked more thoroughly at in the interest of the child …I’m not sure about the freedom of the press in this, whether it’ll be a move forward or whether it’ll be another layer of complexity…it’s a landmark change, obviously…of another system that would benefit from change so it’s just to be hopeful and optimistic…

[Niamh.]

…yeah, it can never be a perfect system by nature of it, can it …but there are so many individual variations on each case…(…as there is with most things…)…and that all needs to be looked more thoroughly at in the interest of the child …I’m not sure about the freedom of the press in this, whether it’ll be a move forward or whether it’ll be another layer of complexity…it’s a landmark change, obviously…of another system that would benefit from change so it’s just to be hopeful and optimistic…

Definitely agree about each case being extremely unique and specific, I'm not sure there's a one size fits all in family law cases.

In regards to whether or not opening family law courts up is a good idea, I suppose it will have it's pro's and con's. Obviously for reasons people have stated above, transparency I suppose mainly it's good but then on the other hand a lot of families would want privacy when there are kids involved too

[user104658]

The one thing that they do differently nowadays here that they didn't do when Gavin was going through his stuff is the judges order a Section 7 report much more readily when parents seem to be at war with each other. It's basically a very detailed report carried out by professionals, extensive interviews with both parents and the children (if they're old enough) and they send this back to the judge with their own recommendations. It's a much better system then just listening to both parents in the courtroom and the judge trying to decide which one is lying.


One of the things that this new development should hopefully help in that regard, is that currently because it's so closed-door to reporting, judges only have to hear and consider expert witnesses - they can totally disregard it if they feel like it and again there's no way to challenge the decisions or even talk about them outside the court room. I will concede that the Scottish family court system is particularly bad - "corrupt" might be a bit far - but certainly, all of the judges and higher-profile family legal professionals are a bit too chummy, so if an abusive ex partner with the funds to hire a lawyer with connections gets a "chummy judge" then it's basically game over.

Unfortunately I do know of a few cases of court-ordered professionals being extremely dodgy too - lazy with assessments, asking leading questions, basically reporting back "standard stuff" (for a high fee) and in one of the worst examples I know of - reporting back "verbatim quotes" from a meeting that was cancelled and never went ahead. So completely fabricated direct quotes from a child. But again the closed-door nature of the court sessions means none of this has ever been able to be talked about after court. It's a very broken system.

Thankfully those examples (crap court professionals) are rare. Judges ignoring professional assessments from child psychologists, teachers, social workers etc... not so rare. An individual judge shouldn't have that sort of power, IMO.

[Niamh.]

One of the things that this new development should hopefully help in that regard, is that currently because it's so closed-door to reporting, judges only have to hear and consider expert witnesses - they can totally disregard it if they feel like it and again there's no way to challenge the decisions or even talk about them outside the court room. I will concede that the Scottish family court system is particularly bad - "corrupt" might be a bit far - but certainly, all of the judges and higher-profile family legal professionals are a bit too chummy, so if an abusive ex partner with the funds to hire a lawyer with connections gets a "chummy judge" then it's basically game over.

Unfortunately I do know of a few cases of court-ordered professionals being extremely dodgy too - lazy with assessments, asking leading questions, basically reporting back "standard stuff" (for a high fee) and in one of the worst examples I know of - reporting back "verbatim quotes" from a meeting that was cancelled and never went ahead. So completely fabricated direct quotes from a child. But again the closed-door nature of the court sessions means none of this has ever been able to be talked about after court. It's a very broken system.

Thankfully those examples (crap court professionals) are rare. Judges ignoring professional assessments from child psychologists, teachers, social workers etc... not so rare. An individual judge shouldn't have that sort of power, IMO.

That's disappointing to hear, not all that surprising though unfortunately. From what I hear (and I don't work with any kind of agencies involved with the courts or child protection so again it's quite anecdotal) is that the judge will pretty much always follow what a section 7 report recommends and they did with my family member

[Ammi]

…yeah, I would also think that any ‘judge corruption’ would be a very rare thing and not very indicative of a family court..also, with any type of specific agencies of ‘professionals’…in my own experience, there are those who are excellent in their profession and those who are not so much…(…like any profession because it’s what a person brings to it as well …)…and when we at the school see some professionals more ‘disregarded’ shall we say, by judges….well, we can at times understand why…which is another layer and aspect of why these cases are all so individual and different and never ‘textbook’….

[user104658]

…yeah, I would also think that any ‘judge corruption’ would be a very rare thing and not very indicative of a family court..also, with any type of specific agencies of ‘professionals’…in my own experience, there are those who are excellent in their profession and those who are not so much…(…like any profession because it’s what a person brings to it as well …)…and when we at the school see some professionals more ‘disregarded’ shall we say, by judges….well, we can at times understand why…which is another layer and aspect of why these cases are all so individual and different and never ‘textbook’….

All I would say Ammi is that unfortunately it's far less rare than you'd think (court and legal corruption in general, but family courts have been especially bad) and if you need evidence... they wouldn't have had to make the changes they're making re: court reporting if there wasn't a problem to address. A large part of the reason it's being done is for judge and court professional accountability. If it was a very rare thing they wouldn't have made the change - because there is a trade off in terms of privacy, which is particularly important when it comes to children's privacy, and that trade off is only worth it because there was a problem.

[Niamh.]

All I would say Ammi is that unfortunately it's far less rare than you'd think (court and legal corruption in general, but family courts have been especially bad) and if you need evidence... they wouldn't have had to make the changes they're making re: court reporting if there wasn't a problem to address. A large part of the reason it's being done is for judge and court professional accountability. If it was a very rare thing they wouldn't have made the change - because there is a trade off in terms of privacy, which is particularly important when it comes to children's privacy, and that trade off is only worth it because there was a problem.

Yes that's a fair point. I'm not sure its ever a good idea to have one person in charge of making decisions like this in any case, especially in matters like these involving children and their safety and mental well being

[Ammi]

All I would say Ammi is that unfortunately it's far less rare than you'd think (court and legal corruption in general, but family courts have been especially bad) and if you need evidence... they wouldn't have had to make the changes they're making re: court reporting if there wasn't a problem to address. A large part of the reason it's being done is for judge and court professional accountability. If it was a very rare thing they wouldn't have made the change - because there is a trade off in terms of privacy, which is particularly important when it comes to children's privacy, and that trade off is only worth it because there was a problem.

…tbh, I’ve become cynical enough…to realise that changes/however landmark have many intentions and they’re not all for ‘the good’ of those involved on a personal level…there are problems to address indeed, we sadly see those too frequently…but those problems often stem from root level before any court proceedings …what’s that expression…a series of unfortunate events….as I say, I don’t have any personal experience of corruption in judge decisions…

[Ammi]

Yes that's a fair point. I'm not sure its ever a good idea to have one person in charge of making decisions like this in any case, especially in matters like these involving children and their safety and mental well being

…the judges don’t generally make the ruling as a one person thing, which is why they have like a ward of court type system and why so many agencies are involved with so many aspects in the child’s welfare…the process is very lengthy and involves many agencies…and obviously schools are a part of that because they have a representative present for so much of it…

[Niamh.]

…the judges don’t generally make the ruling as a one person thing, which is why they have like a ward of court type system and why so many agencies are involved with so many aspects in the child’s welfare…the process is very lengthy and involves many agencies…and obviously schools are a part of that because they have a representative present for so much of it…

Well look, we have a different legal system than you do here in Ireland (although similar) so I can't argue with you about that but here unless the parents are reporting to social services/schools then the judge will just decide based on what he/she is hearing from the parents and their solicitors (unless he orders further reports from third parties)

[Ammi]

Well look, we have a different legal system than you do here in Ireland (although similar) so I can't argue with you about that but here unless the parents are reporting to social services/schools then the judge will just decide based on what he/she is hearing from the parents and their solicitors (unless he orders further reports from third parties)

…hopefully that’s a system that’s going to change more and more in it’s development in the future because as you say…to have a judge as the ‘lone wolf ruling’…of a family and child that they will have none or limited knowledge/personal meeting with those involved would or could be quite flawed, I would think…

[Niamh.]

…hopefully that’s a system that’s going to change more and more in it’s development in the future because as you say…to have a judge as the ‘lone wolf ruing’…of a family and child that they will have none or limited knowledge/personal meeting with those involved would or could be quite flawed, I would think…

Absolutely

[user104658]

…the judges don’t generally make the ruling as a one person thing, which is why they have like a ward of court type system and why so many agencies are involved with so many aspects in the child’s welfare…the process is very lengthy and involves many agencies…and obviously schools are a part of that because they have a representative present for so much of it…

A good judge will use all of the above in making their ruling, a bad judge can choose to ignore anything they feel like ignoring. The ruling absolutely is a one-person thing though, at the end of the day. The judge can over-rule anything they want that's been said by either parent, social services, schools, medical professionals, and hand down a ruling that would boggle any reasonable person's mind. Custody/access court rulings between parents are very different to, say, custody cases where the state is removing custody from both parents entirely. Often what's being sought is court-mandated access, not custody - they're not a ward of the court, the parent denying access already has established custody.

Should also mention often it's not even denying access, it's simply refusing to force the child to engage in access that's causing them distress. Yes, they are supposed to force them to go with the other parent, no matter how distressed they are, no matter what they're saying happens when they're with that parent. It's unthinkable. And that's when the "parental alienation" BS starts to come in (the idea that the child is only terrified of the other parent because they've been "lied to". Pseudoscience, pop-psychology and nonsense. There's no basis for this idea, at all, other than men's rights activism pushing the idea).

I wish this was all just conjecture but I know from multiple real-world examples that this is going on, god knows I wish I didn't, and as I said maybe the court system here is worse here than the rUK (and I don't know anything about Ireland), but this new ruling being UK-wide suggests to me that the issues are UK-wide at least.

For obvious reasons I can't share anything about those examples, which I realise makes the claim "trust based" and meaningless on an internet forum, but :shrug:.

Anyway like I said earlier in the thread - we can hope that transparency results in better accountability and fewer judges going god-mode on people's lives.

[Ammi]

A good judge will use all of the above in making their ruling, a bad judge can choose to ignore anything they feel like ignoring. The ruling absolutely is a one-person thing though, at the end of the day. The judge can over-rule anything they want that's been said by either parent, social services, schools, medical professionals, and hand down a ruling that would boggle any reasonable person's mind. Custody/access court rulings between parents are very different to, say, custody cases where the state is removing custody from both parents entirely. Often what's being sought is court-mandated access, not custody - they're not a ward of the court, the parent denying access already has established custody.

Should also mention often it's not even denying access, it's simply refusing to force the child to engage in access that's causing them distress. Yes, they are supposed to force them to go with the other parent, no matter how distressed they are, no matter what they're saying happens when they're with that parent. It's unthinkable. And that's when the "parental alienation" BS starts to come in (the idea that the child is only terrified of the other parent because they've been "lied to". Pseudoscience, pop-psychology and nonsense. There's no basis for this idea, at all, other than men's rights activism pushing the idea).

I wish this was all just conjecture but I know from multiple real-world examples that this is going on, god knows I wish I didn't, and as I said maybe the court system here is worse here than the rUK (and I don't know anything about Ireland), but this new ruling being UK-wide suggests to me that the issues are UK-wide at least.

For obvious reasons I can't share anything about those examples, which I realise makes the claim "trust based" and meaningless on an internet forum, but :shrug:.

Anyway like I said earlier in the thread - we can hope that transparency results in better accountability and fewer judges going god-mode on people's lives.

…yeah but there are obviously ‘good’ and ‘bad’ in every profession is the thing that I’m saying as well…that there are also agencies which are a blend and mixture of good ‘experts’ and those who aren’t so much…and that’s also why multiple agencies give for a better balance for the judge to hold their ruling…court procedure can also be of joint custody parenting…but with one parent refusing to adhere to the ruling and maybe collecting a child from school, say…?…on a day that the other parent was meant to be and that’s an extremely volatile situation as you can imagine…because a parent’s first thought of panic can be that someone (…an unknown…)…has taken their child…it’s such a sad thing to see when there has to be any court intervention in parent communication…and that’s often the crux of it…

[Beso]

Not too nice for the child to have all its suffering when it grows up still on public display.