I see Zelah as a bloke, but...

[Swan]

When you constantly remind people you used to be a female, it must be hard to differentiate at times.

I accept Zelah as a man, from day one, i see him as a man. But being reminded daily he used to live as a woman, and be a woman, it's hard not to see it. Idk.

It wasn't that bad because it wasn't malicious.

Just wanna say, fck this current BB, obsessed with politics and gender, boring af.

[Crimson Dynamo]

When you constantly remind people you used to be a female, it must be hard to differentiate at times.

I accept Zelah as a man, from day one, i see him as a man. But being reminded daily he used to live as a woman, and be a woman, it's hard not to see it. Idk.

It wasn't that bad because it wasn't malicious.

Just wanna say, fck this current BB, obsessed with politics and gender, boring af.

Tonight they have ruined the series

No coming back now

Ratings will plummet

[Glenn.]

He’s just telling his story. Much needed in today’s climate.

People being openly transphobic without fear of consequence shows how far we have fallen.

[Swan]

He’s just telling his story. Much needed in today’s climate.

People being openly transphobic without fear of consequence shows how far we have fallen.

It was factual in the sense Zelah couldn't reproduce on a desert Island with a woman.

[Barry.]

It’s not all Zelah fault. I blame the other housemates for making it bigger than it is. Also for BB only showing Zelah talking about it. I’m sure he has other words with others but we only see an hour in a 24 hour feed.

[Barry.]

It was factual in the sense Zelah couldn't reproduce on a desert Island with a woman.

I agree however I’d of worded it very differently

[Talulabelle]

Caroline was talking about making babies on a desert island and Nancy says 'Does it have to be a man?' (Err .... making babies on a desert island - yes!) So when Nancy chose Zelah Caroline's point (I think) was that the two of them couldn't make babies but the way she put it was really blunt and insensitive, but certainly not worth of the drama that came out of it.

[joeysteele]

He’s just telling his story. Much needed in today’s climate.

People being openly transphobic without fear of consequence shows how far we have fallen.

Your last part of your post is 100% correct.

[Ithinkiloveyoutoo]

Unpopular opinion: I think transgender people should accept the fact that sometimes people will slip and if they do they shouldn't use it as an opportunity to play victim.

[Glenn.]

It was factual in the sense Zelah couldn't reproduce on a desert Island with a woman.

It would be an island of inbreds no matter who was reproducing. Not sure why anyone thinks that’s a good idea.

[Ithinkiloveyoutoo]

He’s just telling his story. Much needed in today’s climate.

People being openly transphobic without fear of consequence shows how far we have fallen.

Is it transphobia or not being well versed on this.

For some people it is still as simple as if you were born a girl they might still see you as a girl/woman

[Cherie]

Most of the other HMs took the opportunity to get that airtime lbr

[Glenn.]

Is it transphobia or not being well versed on this.

For some people it is still as simple as if you were born a girl they might still see you as a girl/woman

What’s Caroline’s excuse? Did she know Zelah before he transitioned?

[Maru]

Unpopular opinion: I think transgender people should accept the fact that sometimes people will slip and if they do they shouldn't use it as an opportunity to play victim.

Yes. Lack of resiliency is a concern.

[Barry.]

Unpopular opinion: I think transgender people should accept the fact that sometimes people will slip and if they do they shouldn't use it as an opportunity to play victim.

But he did say that, he said in his everyday life people slip sometimes. It’s the fecking housemates making it a bigger deal

[Cherie]

It would be an island of inbreds no matter who was reproducing. Not sure why anyone thinks that’s a good idea.

what ....no one is related in the house, how would it be inbred

[Maru]

Most of the other HMs took the opportunity to get that airtime lbr

Absolutely. Caroline saying she had to apologize to everyone was ridiculous. She only owed an apology to Zelah. The rest of the group acting offended by proxy and entitled to some kind of explanation sums up a lot of what's wrong with society today.

[rusticgal]

When you constantly remind people you used to be a female, it must be hard to differentiate at times.

I accept Zelah as a man, from day one, i see him as a man. But being reminded daily he used to live as a woman, and be a woman, it's hard not to see it. Idk.

It wasn't that bad because it wasn't malicious.

Just wanna say, fck this current BB, obsessed with politics and gender, boring af.


I totally agree. He said that’s why he didn’t want to tell anyone but took every opportunity too :shrug:….hoe many times do you work out??…”3 as a woman and 2 as a man”….so don’t say you didn’t want people to know :shrug:

…as for Feysola..she’s getting right on my tits.

[Ithinkiloveyoutoo]

What’s Caroline’s excuse? Did she know Zelah before he transitioned?
Zelah mentioned he transitioned so that translates to from girl to boy? :shrug:

[GoldHeart]

When you constantly remind people you used to be a female, it must be hard to differentiate at times.

I accept Zelah as a man, from day one, i see him as a man. But being reminded daily he used to live as a woman, and be a woman, it's hard not to see it. Idk.

It wasn't that bad because it wasn't malicious.

Just wanna say, fck this current BB, obsessed with politics and gender, boring af.

Oh boy sounds like tonight has been a mess :facepalm::joker:, I'll probably watch it back another time .

Sounds like Zelah is trapping himself in another India Willoughby situation, she kept reminding everyone she was trans aswell.

[Zizu]

When you constantly remind people you used to be a female, it must be hard to differentiate at times.

I accept Zelah as a man, from day one, i see him as a man. But being reminded daily he used to live as a woman, and be a woman, it's hard not to see it. Idk.

It wasn't that bad because it wasn't malicious.

Just wanna say, fck this current BB, obsessed with politics and gender, boring af.


You say it wasn’t malicious but what else can it be .. she knew it was a cruel and hurtful thing to say but probably thought everyone will think it was an hilarious, throw away line ..

But it backfired big time ..

It will stay with her for a while too

There’s no way she wins the show for starters

The other programme like This Morning or Loose Women probably won’t want her as a guest and so on …


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[Barry.]

what ....no one is related in the house, how would it be inbred

Because they’d produce with there brothers and sisters silly :joker:

[Ithinkiloveyoutoo]

But he did say that, he said in his everyday life people slip sometimes. It’s the fecking housemates making it a bigger deal

He didn't help by going straight to the diary room and being a cloud of sorrow thereafter

[Glenn.]

what ....no one is related in the house, how would it be inbred

Have a little think about how reproduction works.

[Swan]

what ....no one is related in the house, how would it be inbred

They would be Incel inbreds, get it right Cherie you hater :smug:

[Cherie]

Because they’d produce with there brothers and sisters silly :joker:

oh right, I didnt think we had got to the second generation, they are still trying to figure out who is getting it on :laugh:

[Beso]

They should have kicked her out, the vibe just wont be the same now.

[Glenn.]

Zelah mentioned he transitioned so that translates to from girl to boy? :shrug:

But Caroline didn’t know Zelah before he transitioned. She’s only known Zelah as a male.

There’s not really anything you can say to excuse it. She dug herself a hole and just kept digging. She did wrong.

[Cherie]

They would be Incel inbreds, get it right Cherie you hater :smug:

Its funny that labelling someone as an Incel with no evidence is taken as the norm :laugh:

[Zizu]

They should have kicked her out, the vibe just wont be the same now.


She could easily find herself being marginalised !!

Fingers crossed [emoji1696]


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[Talulabelle]

He’s just telling his story. Much needed in today’s climate.

People being openly transphobic without fear of consequence shows how far we have fallen.

"Transphobic - having or showing discrimination against, aversion to, or fear of transgender people" Nothing Caroline said was any of those things. It was incredibly insensitive but don't make it out to be something it isn't.

[Swan]

It would be an island of inbreds no matter who was reproducing. Not sure why anyone thinks that’s a good idea.

You're saying Zelah is an inbred? It was he who was chosen to reproduce on an desert Island with a biological woman.

Strange take Glenn, something an Incel might say, idk, im not an expert on Incels like yourself.

[Maru]

Its funny that labelling someone as an Incel with no evidence is taken as the norm :laugh:

The racist word got overused and lost its power, so they had to find a new word, Cherie.

[Lostie!]

Unpopular opinion: I think transgender people should accept the fact that sometimes people will slip and if they do they shouldn't use it as an opportunity to play victim.

People will possibly slip if they knew them pre transition. Caroline has only ever known Zelah as a man, and he doesn't look like anything but a man. Also, "she's a girl" isn't a slip in the same way mistakenly using the wrong pronoun is.

That one comment said everything about how she views trans people.

[Cherie]

They should have kicked her out, the vibe just wont be the same now.

I agree

[Cherie]

The racist word got overused and lost its power, so they had to find a new word, Cherie.

True Maru

[bots]

i just don't see the point in BB anymore if this is how they react to people being people

[Glenn.]

"Transphobic - having or showing discrimination against, aversion to, or fear of transgender people" Nothing Caroline said was any of those things. It was incredibly insensitive but don't make it out to be something it isn't.

You completely misunderstood my post.

I wasn’t talking about the house, I was talking more real life and in particular on this very forum.

[Zizu]

But Caroline didn’t know Zelah before he transitioned. She’s only known Zelah as a male.

There’s not really anything you can say to excuse it. She dug herself a hole and just kept digging. She did wrong.


Hallelujah

She knew it was cruel and hurtful but thought that everyone would think it was an hilarious throw away line !!

It backfired bigtime as there’s no way she can win now plus she will probably find herself being marginalised by the others .. who will want to associate with her now .. I bet even her ‘boys’ give her a wide berth now


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[Swan]

The racist word got overused and lost its power, so they had to find a new word, Cherie.

Correct. Any kind of "phobe" is quite hot right now. As long as the person is white, and straight, the're ALWAYS be phobes of some sort :hee:

[Maru]

People will possibly slip if they knew them pre transition. Caroline has only ever known Zelah as a man, and he doesn't look like anything but a man. Also, "she's a girl" isn't a slip in the same way mistakenly using the wrong pronoun is.

That one comment said everything about how she views trans people.

Caroline has grown up in a world where women couldn't become men and men couldn't become women... she's not going to just simply change that opinion overnight and so yes, her language is going to reflect her true belief. Most people still see the same world that Caroline lives in. Some may not want to accept that, but that's reality.

[Zizu]

People will possibly slip if they knew them pre transition. Caroline has only ever known Zelah as a man, and he doesn't look like anything but a man. Also, "she's a girl" isn't a slip in the same way mistakenly using the wrong pronoun is.

That one comment said everything about how she views trans people.


She probably feels the same way about Fayisola and Sam for different reasons

At least they’ve seen through her fake facade


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[Lostie!]

Caroline has grown up in a world where women couldn't become men and men couldn't become women... she's not going to just simply change that opinion overnight and so yes, her language is going to reflect her true belief. Most people still see the same world that Caroline lives in. Some may not want to accept that, but that's reality.

At least one Caroline defender admits she's a transphobe, good on you!

[Jordan.]

Caroline has grown up in a world where women couldn't become men and men couldn't become women... she's not going to just simply change that opinion overnight and so yes, her language is going to reflect her true belief. Most people still see the same world that Caroline lives in. Some may not want to accept that, but that's reality.

How old do you think she is? She's less than 10 years older than the first transgender winner of the show...

[Maru]

At least one Caroline defender admits she's a transphobe, good on you!

That word has no meaning to me. It just says someone disagrees and therefore they must be shamed. :shrug: Idgaf

[Crimson Dynamo]

i just don't see the point in BB anymore if this is how they react to people being people

They are just an arm of activists now

Its so sad to see a series die like this

Ironically on TV!

[romeofahey]

I can only imagine how Zelah felt in that moment. The fact that people are quick to empathise with Caroline over him is very telling

[Zizu]

I can only imagine how Zelah felt in that moment. The fact that people are quick to empathise with Caroline over him is very telling


And more than a little worrying


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[Benjamin]

Caroline has just sealed her fate of being evicted next week.

[Maru]

I can only imagine how Zelah felt in that moment. The fact that people are quick to empathise with Caroline over him is very telling

Caroline has been making subtle digs for several episodes now that could've been interpreted as innocent. It's finally this one that got through the filter :laugh:

[Talulabelle]

I can only imagine how Zelah felt in that moment. The fact that people are quick to empathise with Caroline over him is very telling

Can't we empathise with both for different reasons? I do.

[romeofahey]

Can't we empathise with both for different reasons? I do.

Sure, if that’s how you feel that means I wasn’t talking about you.

[Zizu]

Caroline has just sealed her fate of being evicted next week.


Plus she’s buggered up a ton of after show work- who will want someone as a guest with her views in this day and age ?


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[Zizu]

Caroline has been making subtle digs for several episodes now that could've been interpreted as innocent. It's finally this one that got through the filter :laugh:


Exactly


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[Conzors]

I’m sick of the excuse she grew up in a world where transgender wasn’t a thing blablabla

People quickly adapt and get used to things. She was offensive. Do I think she regrets it and is apologetic though? Yes. I don’t think she’s nasty I just think she needs to be more open and ask questions in a better way.

[Conzors]

When you constantly remind people you used to be a female, it must be hard to differentiate at times.

I accept Zelah as a man, from day one, i see him as a man. But being reminded daily he used to live as a woman, and be a woman, it's hard not to see it. Idk.

It wasn't that bad because it wasn't malicious.

Just wanna say, fck this current BB, obsessed with politics and gender, boring af.

And I hope you do see Zelah as a bloke… because he is? Lol

That’s like saying under Tate as a bloke. You haven’t known them as anything else.

[OnTheRight]

… because he is? Lol
:joker::joker:

[Maru]

I’m sick of the excuse she grew up in a world where transgender wasn’t a thing blablabla

People quickly adapt and get used to things. She was offensive. Do I think she regrets it and is apologetic though? Yes. I don’t think she’s nasty I just think she needs to be more open and ask questions in a better way.

I agree to an extent. Getting used to something is very different than suddenly changing one's entire worldview, though. She's a verbal firehose at times and it finally caught up with her. If she wanted to have that direct conversation with Zelah, there were better ways to have done it...

[Crimson Dynamo]

And I hope you do see Zelah as a bloke… because he is? Lol

That’s like saying under Tate as a bloke. You haven’t known them as anything else.

Tate is a man?

[Conzors]

I agree to an extent. Getting used to something is very different than suddenly changing one's entire worldview, though. She's a verbal firehose at times and it finally caught up with her. If she wanted to have that direct conversation with Zelah, there were better ways to have done it...

Exactly, a game of spin the bottle in front of the whole house is not it

[Conzors]

Tate is a man?

Yes exactly this is my point.

So is Zelah.

[bots]

Yes exactly this is my point.

So is Zelah.

zelah is a trans man, his biology is that of a woman. There is no way to change that no matter how much word salad you throw at it

[Mystic Mock]

When you constantly remind people you used to be a female, it must be hard to differentiate at times.

I accept Zelah as a man, from day one, i see him as a man. But being reminded daily he used to live as a woman, and be a woman, it's hard not to see it. Idk.

It wasn't that bad because it wasn't malicious.

Just wanna say, fck this current BB, obsessed with politics and gender, boring af.

This.

BB seems to have forgotten that viewers want to watch Housemates have depth to them.

Surely BB knows what the word depth means?:umm2:

[Conzors]

zelah is a trans man, his biology is that of a woman. There is no way to change that no matter how much word salad you throw at it

They are both men. We as non trans people do not get a dictate that. If you didn’t know Zelah was trans you’d call him a man without question.

[Mystic Mock]

He’s just telling his story. Much needed in today’s climate.

People being openly transphobic without fear of consequence shows how far we have fallen.

We don't have freedom of speech in this country if there's fear of consequence imo.

And I honestly don't have an issue with Zelah talking about being Transgender in itself (why wouldn't he talk about it tbf?) I'm personally more bothered that by the fact that BB seems to believe that Zelah being Transgender is a personality trait and can't be arsed to let him be a normal Housemate.

Kinda like Strictly last year when they wouldn't let Chris just be a normal contestant.

[Mystic Mock]

what ....no one is related in the house, how would it be inbred

I think Glenn's implying that they're all Aston Villa fans.:hehe:

[Mystic Mock]

Its funny that labelling someone as an Incel with no evidence is taken as the norm :laugh:

I mean George did nominate Elsa, and the blondes are the prettiest out of the girls this series... Somehow.:laugh:

And going by certain things that he has said, I can see why people would speculate on him being an Incel.

[bots]

They are both men. We as non trans people do not get a dictate that. If you didn’t know Zelah was trans you’d call him a man without question.

but he is telling everyone who will listen that he is trans, we have seen it for more than a week already

[Beso]

Yes exactly this is my point.

So is Zelah.

You may be ok lying to yourself, others are not.

[Oliver_W]

Okay first off men can cry too, and there's nothing unmanly about emotions ...

BUT

It did amuse me that Zelah said he was thick-skinned etc, when he went crying to the DR and spent the rest of the night being comforted.

[Conzors]

You may be ok lying to yourself, others are not.

Jesus

[Conzors]

but he is telling everyone who will listen that he is trans, we have seen it for more than a week already

How? Has he has told a handful of people and the other told everyone else lol you’re deluded

[Livia]

They are both men. We as non trans people do not get a dictate that. If you didn’t know Zelah was trans you’d call him a man without question.

The X and Y chromosomes dictate it. He's a trans man, you can't ask people to pretend he's a biological man to make him feel better.

[Gusto Brunt]

That old woman shouldn't be in there. She's an immature idiot.

If she's not playing playground 'jokes' and saying who loves who, she's insulting people. :mad:

It made me angry when she called him a girl. :man:

Insensitive ignorant idiot.

[Livia]

How? Has he has told a handful of people and the other told everyone else lol you’re deluded

Actually, he said he wasn't in there on a crusade to talk about trans constantly. And he's talked of little else.

I don't dislike him. I wish him well in his life but I won't lie to please him.

[Beso]

Jesus

Turning in his grave as we speak.

[Vanessa]

He's my favourite. Just an all round nice guy. Very understanding and didn't hold a grudge.
Glad him and Caroline got to talk things through.

[Glenn.]

Actually, he said he wasn't in there on a crusade to talk about trans constantly. And he's talked of little else.

I don't dislike him. I wish him well in his life but I won't lie to please him.

He hasn’t asked you to. And chances are, will never ask you to. You’re unlikely to cross paths with any trans people in your lifetime.

They want to live their lives in peace.

[Molly biggles]

And I hope you do see Zelah as a bloke… because he is? Lol

That’s like saying under Tate as a bloke. You haven’t known them as anything else.

No he's not. He has the right to want to be called a he and identify as what he wants but he will never be a biological bloke

[Conzors]

The X and Y chromosomes dictate it. He's a trans man, you can't ask people to pretend he's a biological man to make him feel better.

Nobody is asking him to pretend he’s a biological man. But he’s a man, since when does anyone care about the biology of a human? Saying ‘I see Zelah as a man’ is a ridic thing to say as who wouldn’t see him as a man any less so that Tate or Marcus?

This is the argument. Nobody is doubting biology, but what people are doubting is the fact he is a man when if he didn’t tell anyone he was trans, it’s most likely nobody would know and you and I wouldn’t be having this convo cos that’s how irrelevant it is to someone’s gender?

[Conzors]

No he's not. He has the right to want to be called a he and identify as what he wants but he will never be a biological bloke

Who cares about Biology! If you didn’t know he was born a woman would you care? No! So why do you care now that you know? Ridiculous!!

[Conzors]

Turning in his grave as we speak.

Yes at your comments

[Livia]

Nobody is asking him to pretend he’s a biological man. But he’s a man, since when does anyone care about the biology of a human? Saying ‘I see Zelah as a man’ is a ridic thing to say as who wouldn’t see him as a man any less so that Tate or Marcus?

This is the argument. Nobody is doubting biology, but what people are doubting is the fact he is a man when if he didn’t tell anyone he was trans, it’s most likely nobody would know and you and I wouldn’t be having this convo cos that’s how irrelevant it is to someone’s gender?

No one can change sex, that's a fact. It's biology over ideology. I hope he lives his life and is happy. I'm happy to refer to him as "he". But you can't make me believe he's actually changed sex. He hasn't. Biologically, he will always be a woman.

[Conzors]

No one can change sex, that's a fact. It's biology over ideology. I hope he lives his life and is happy. I'm happy to refer to him as "he". But you can't make me believe he's actually changed sex. He hasn't. Biologically, he will always be a woman.

He has changed gender.
And why does it matter to you? Why are you so pressed by this that you will always think of his biology when thinking about him? Do you think about non-trans peoples biologies?

[Livia]

He has changed gender.
And why does it matter to you? Why are you so pressed by this that you will always think of his biology when thinking about him? Do you think about non-trans peoples biologies?

It doesn't matter to me and had he not put himself into Big Brother and talked endlessly about being trans, I would have nothing to say about him at all. This is a forum for opinions about Big Brother and my opinion on this housemate is that he's a trans man. Which means he's biologically female.

[Zizu]

No one can change sex, that's a fact. It's biology over ideology. I hope he lives his life and is happy. I'm happy to refer to him as "he". But you can't make me believe he's actually changed sex. He hasn't. Biologically, he will always be a woman.


We must all process things differently ..

I know Zelah’s back ( and front) story but I can only see him as a guy because he looks , sounds and behaves so much like a guy .

Maybe it’s my poor imagination … I just see what I see ..


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[Conzors]

It doesn't matter to me and had he not put himself into Big Brother and talked endlessly about being trans, I would have nothing to say about him at all. This is a forum for opinions about Big Brother and my opinion on this housemate is that he's a trans man. Which means he's biologically female.

Your opinion on this house is correct, he is a trans man. That’s not an opinion that’s a fact - however why is this your thing you always go back to - his gender? Do you think about the non trans people’s gender or do you see other things and not even think about the gender?

I’m not trying to goad you here, I’m trying to make people’s that biological sex is irrelevant, especially when someone is trans and is passing as a man anyway

[Livia]

Your opinion on this house is correct, he is a trans man. That’s not an opinion that’s a fact - however why is this your thing you always go back to - his gender? Do you think about the non trans people’s gender or do you see other things and not even think about the gender?

I’m not trying to goad you here, I’m trying to make people’s that biological sex is irrelevant, especially when someone is trans and is passing as a man anyway

It sounds like you're goading me, I think I've been very clear. People's sex is maybe more important to me as a woman, we're expected by some to accept men, usually complete with male genitals, into women only spaces, rape crisis centres, prisons, women's sport... I can't accept it, men have been excluded from those spaces for a reason. A line has to be drawn and my line is this: live your life, love who you love, marry them, be happy, but don't ask me to believe you've changed sex.

[Beso]

Yes at your comments

Oh shut up..the world is fed up with your views.

[Conzors]

It sounds like you're goading me, I think I've been very clear. People's sex is maybe more important to me as a woman, we're expected by some to accept men, usually complete with male genitals, into women only spaces, rape crisis centres, prisons, women's sport... I can't accept it, men have been excluded from those spaces for a reason. A line has to be drawn and my line is this: live your life, love who you love, marry them, be happy, but don't ask me to believe you've changed sex.

The majority of people born male who transition into females who want to enter female only spaces want and need protection too. I understand the concerns about men who ‘pretend’ to be woman just to enter these spaces to make women feel uncomfortable - that’s is not acceptable, but it’s also not the majority of trans men and are a very much a small percentage.

Sorry for coming across as goading - I just feel so passionate about this and find it hard not to say something

[Conzors]

Oh shut up..the world is fed up with your views.

Come on now, no need to be rude this is a forum please debate with respect, thank you

[StephenPullen]

When the only interesting thing about you and your whole character and what you talk about is that you are trans, you are a one note person. Everyone feels uncomfortable and has to overthink their speech and what they say. It's just exhausting.

[Niamh.]

The majority of people born male who transition into females who want to enter female only spaces want and need protection too. I understand the concerns about men who ‘pretend’ to be woman just to enter these spaces to make women feel uncomfortable - that’s is not acceptable, but it’s also not the majority of trans men and are a very much a small percentage.

Sorry for coming across as goading - I just feel so passionate about this and find it hard not to say something

Then they need to create their own spaces, transwomens safety does not trump womens and we are not human shields, if you allow some biologically male people into women's spaces how do you draw the line? Why is it OK to have women as collateral damage?

As a woman I also feel passionate about this, it's women's rights, you as a man, are passionate about giving away here. Women had to fight for the right to have these spaces, they were necessary for biological differences, based on sex not gender or identity.

I'm all for protecting transpeople but not at the expense of womens or girls safety and dignity.

[Conzors]

Then they need to create their own spaces, transwomens safety does not trump womens and we are not human shields, if you allow some biologically male people into women's spaces how do you draw the line? Why is it OK to have women as collateral damage?

As a woman I also feel passionate about this, it's women's rights, you as a man, are passionate about giving away here. Women had to fight for the right to have these spaces, they were necessary for biological differences, based on sex not gender or identity.

I'm all for protecting transpeople but not at the expense of womens or girls safety and dignity.

It’s a very sensitive issue and obviously I cannot understand what it’s like from a women’s perspective and you and Livia have a very valid point but most trans people do not want to make biological women feel unsafe, they too want safe space.

Trans people already have safe spaces within the gay community (gay pubs, social groups etc) but I can only relate it to (and I know it’s not the same at all) growing up gay and wanting to feel comfortable in the environment I am in without people commenting or making ‘jokes’ or asking a lot of inappropriate questions about why im gay etc but i think the issue here is people seeing them as their biological sex and then treating them as such when thats not right.

Most trans people will not be predators within a female only or a male only space especially the ones that are passing as their desired gender.

I don’t think I can comment on male to female transitions and from a women’s perspective but making trans only spaces is not the answer as they should feel safe anywhere.

[Livia]

The majority of people born male who transition into females who want to enter female only spaces want and need protection too. I understand the concerns about men who ‘pretend’ to be woman just to enter these spaces to make women feel uncomfortable - that’s is not acceptable, but it’s also not the majority of trans men and are a very much a small percentage.

Sorry for coming across as goading - I just feel so passionate about this and find it hard not to say something

Maybe trans women who want protection too should do what biological women have done for years and years, campaign for their own spaces, fight for them, speak up for them, not expect to piggy back onto women who up until a few years ago, were dictated to by men in every stage of their lives. Having biological men now insist they have access to hard fought-for spaces and services seems frighteningly dictatorial. It is probably a small percentage but how do we tell which ones are the predators? I personally think self identification has been a disaster for women. And in reality, it's not trans men who are the problem. But I say again, we only get so many trips round the sun and I hope everyone can find some happiness and live their lives the way they choose.

I see you're passionate about this. I am also passionate about women's rights, as was my mother and those women before her. But thank you for letting me have my say in a resaonable way without either of us hurling insults. It's appreciated.

[Niamh.]

It’s a very sensitive issue and obviously I cannot understand what it’s like from a women’s perspective and you and Livia have a very valid point but most trans people do not want to make biological women feel unsafe, they too want safe space.

Trans people already have safe spaces within the gay community (gay pubs, social groups etc) but I can only relate it to (and I know it’s not the same at all) growing up gay and wanting to feel comfortable in the environment I am in without people commenting or making ‘jokes’ or asking a lot of inappropriate questions about why im gay etc but i think the issue here is people seeing them as their biological sex and then treating them as such when thats not right.

Most trans people will not be predators within a female only or a male only space especially the ones that are passing as their desired gender.

I don’t think I can comment on male to female transitions and from a women’s perspective but making trans only spaces is not the answer as they should feel safe anywhere.

I'm just going to pick you up on this point as the rest of your post I agree with you and I understand why you, as a gay man, would relate to the discriminatory aspect of trans people. What do you mean by this, can you expand a bit?

[Beso]

Without wanting to sound stupid, just what exactly would a trans man pee out off? Seemingly Zelah didn't have a penis.

[Vicky.]

Without wanting to sound stupid, just what exactly would a trans man pee out off? Seemingly Zelah didn't have a penis.

Zelah will still have female parts I assume

[Cherie]

Zelah will still have female parts I assume


This is what I don't understand, that was Carolines first question....she asked...if you had a c...k what would you do with it, would you swing it around.... I gasped, I thought that was worse than saying he was a girl yet BB never referred to it when they read back the transcript, at least I dont think they did

[Conzors]

I'm just going to pick you up on this point as the rest of your post I agree with you and I understand why you, as a gay man, would relate to the discriminatory aspect of trans people. What do you mean by this, can you expand a bit?

Like if trans people felt safe and accepted in public spaces there wouldn’t be this dire need for trans only spaces or trans women to be in biological women’s spaces because they could use the bathroom of the sex they were assigned at birth without fear of being assaulted etc

I agree with you in the sense that men who say they are women but are not making any effort to pass as a woman or live like a woman shouldn’t be allowed in female only spaces because then it’s very high risk, but the people who are living as a woman, can pass as a woman are less of a threat and therefore could use women’s only spaces as it would be harder to know.

Have I made sense there? Again hard for me to comment as a man

[Beso]

Zelah will still have female parts I assume

He should be pretty safe in the men's toilets then, people will just assume he likes coke or is taking a dump.

[Niamh.]

Like if trans people felt safe and accepted in public spaces there wouldn’t be this dire need for trans only spaces or trans women to be in biological women’s spaces because they could use the bathroom of the sex they were assigned at birth without fear of being assaulted etc

I agree with you in the sense that men who say they are women but are not making any effort to pass as a woman or live like a woman shouldn’t be allowed in female only spaces because then it’s very high risk, but the people who are living as a woman, can pass as a woman are less of a threat and therefore could use women’s only spaces as it would be harder to know.

Have I made sense there? Again hard for me to comment as a man

Well yeah in a perfect world I guess! But we don't live in a perfect world which is why there was a need for single sex spaces and safe guarding in general in the first place

[Vanessa]

He's really lovely and so mature. He's my vote to win. I know it's early but I know who I like.

[millyrose]

I really like him one of my favorites

[Mystic Mock]

Nobody is asking him to pretend he’s a biological man. But he’s a man, since when does anyone care about the biology of a human? Saying ‘I see Zelah as a man’ is a ridic thing to say as who wouldn’t see him as a man any less so that Tate or Marcus?

This is the argument. Nobody is doubting biology, but what people are doubting is the fact he is a man when if he didn’t tell anyone he was trans, it’s most likely nobody would know and you and I wouldn’t be having this convo cos that’s how irrelevant it is to someone’s gender?

I do agree with you personally.

The only time Biology matters imo is to do with Sports, especially Martial Arts.

Edit.... Just to clarify, other issues on this topic I feel a bit mixed on tbh, so I would support whatever the majority of women feel on those other topics tbh.

[ebandit]

sure! zelah is a bloke if that's what they want........................however they can't dictate to others exactly how others may describe them.....................

if 'girl' is problematic then the issue is more with zelah than caroline........................

Mark L

[Glenn.]

Without wanting to sound stupid, just what exactly would a trans man pee out off? Seemingly Zelah didn't have a penis.

Your obsession with other people’s genitals is once again, worrying.

[Jessica.]

Zelah has only been transitioning for two years and the ones who hate trans people and say trans men are self mutilating by having surgery are also discussing his genitalia and speculating about his lack of an appendage. Make it make sense? It's almost as if none of you actually care and it's just another topic you can regurgitate lines about from the dailymail.

[Vanessa]

Zelah has only been transitioning for two years and the ones who hate trans people and say trans men are self mutilating by having surgery are also discussing his genitalia and speculating about his lack of an appendage. Make it make sense? It's almost as if none of you actually care and it's just another topic you can regurgitate lines about from the dailymail.

Everyone loves him. He's doing great.