ze/zir/zem.

[Cherie]

Are you familiar with these new pronouns

A Labour-run council has told staff to announce their pronouns at the start of meetings.

Bosses at Wandsworth borough council are also encouraging employees to add general neutral pronouns such as “ze/zir/zem” to email signatures and their social media profiles.

In an internal memo, seen by The Telegraph, it is argued that “people from the non-binary and transgender communities” need to be “more seen and recognised”.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/entertainment/music/labour-council-tells-staff-to-announce-pronouns-before-meetings/ar-AA1UihmD?ocid=msedgntp&pc=LCTS&cvid=696a21b1f79a413d8f19b6812efa3180&ei=23


Personally I don't think anyone should be forced to put anything on their email signature that they don't want to put there :shrug: It should be personal choice

[Vicky.]

Thought everyone could pick their own pronouns, thought that was the point...'encouraging,' people to pick certain ones doesn't tally...

[rusticgal]

The world has gone mad...:laugh:

[jones89]

I was making an appointment online the other day and i noticed these were included in the pronouns section…

if i’m to acknowledge or use those i’m gonna need to know what the hell ze/zir/zem means! :joker:

[BBXX]

Thought everyone could pick their own pronouns, thought that was the point...'encouraging,' people to pick certain ones doesn't tally...

I don't think they're encouraging people to put gender neutral pronouns if they aren't gender neutral, just if they are. It reads very weirdly.

I have, obviously, many opinions on this. :laugh:

1. Nobody should be forced to do this. Encouragement is one thing, it being a requirement is another. I understand the logic in encouraging it - which is if cisgender people do it, then it makes it less obvious when gender-neutral people do it, which may make people feel more comfortable if putting 'they/them' on a signature for example and saves someone referring to them as 'she' or 'he' when that's not how they identify.

2. Putting pronouns in email signatures can actually be helpful for many people who have gender neutral names such as Sam, Jo, Alex, Ali etc... I was referring to someone called Alfie as a he for ages until I realised they were a woman! I didn't even know Alfie was a woman's name!

3. All this talk about discrimination towards people who don't subscribe to then 'ideology' and liken it to the tooth fairy etc... urgh. Literally what is the harm is referencing someone as a he if that's how they prefer to be referenced regardless of whether they are biologically a girl or whatever. Like nobody else is asking you to believe, just respect others belief. Like I do with religion. I will ask colleagues and friends about their religious celebrations even though I think the whole thing is totally made up rubbish! I know people who have a different name on their birth certificate to the one they want to be called and I call them by their preferred name because it's just manners. It's not technically their given name, but why would I care.

4. Fiona needs to understand pronouns are not just about sex, but also gender. We refer to people we didn't know the gender of as 'they' many times in life, so why now is it an issue when people are asked to out of respect for self-identification.

5. I don't understand ze/zer/zim in the slightest and I don't understand loads of other Neo-pronouns but I also really don't give a **** if someone asks me to refer to them in that way because it makes literally no difference to me or my life but makes a lot of difference to theirs.

[Cherie]

I was making an appointment online the other day and i noticed these were included in the pronouns section…

if i’m to acknowledge or use those i’m gonna need to know what the hell ze/zir/zem means! :joker:

I think its a special way of saying they/them/theirs from what I can gather, not sure why the original way was not good enough, I had never heard of this and if I had seen it on a form I would have thought it was a typo :laugh:

[Cherie]

I don't think they're encouraging people to put gender neutral pronouns if they aren't gender neutral, just if they are. It reads very weirdly.

I have, obviously, many opinions on this. :laugh:

1. Nobody should be forced to do this. Encouragement is one thing, it being a requirement is another. I understand the logic in encouraging it - which is if cisgender people do it, then it makes it less obvious when gender-neutral people do it, which may make people feel more comfortable if putting 'they/them' on a signature for example and saves someone referring to them as 'she' or 'he' when that's not how they identify.

2. Putting pronouns in email signatures can actually be helpful for many people who have gender neutral names such as Sam, Jo, Alex, Ali etc... I was referring to someone called Alfie as a he for ages until I realised they were a woman! I didn't even know Alfie was a woman's name!

3. All this talk about discrimination towards people who don't subscribe to then 'ideology' and liken it to the tooth fairy etc... urgh. Literally what is the harm is referencing someone as a he if that's how they prefer to be referenced regardless of whether they are biologically a girl or whatever. Like nobody else is asking you to believe, just respect others belief. Like I do with religion. I will ask colleagues and friends about their religious celebrations even though I think the whole thing is totally made up rubbish! I know people who have a different name on their birth certificate to the one they want to be called and I call them by their preferred name because it's just manners. It's not technically their given name, but why would I care.

4. Fiona needs to understand pronouns are not just about sex, but also gender. We refer to people we didn't know the gender of as 'they' many times in life, so why now is it an issue when people are asked to out of respect for self-identification.

5. I don't understand ze/zer/zim in the slightest and I don't understand loads of other Neo-pronouns but I also really don't give a **** if someone asks me to refer to them in that way because it makes literally no difference to me or my life but makes a lot of difference to theirs.

When the goalposts are constantly moved, dont expect people to give a **** and follow every change, if they want to be referred to that fine, but dont expect me to know it :shrug: Ze is over there... wtf

[BBXX]

[/B]

When the goalposts are constantly moved, dont expect people to give a **** and follow every change, if they want to be referred to that fine, but dont expect me to know it :shrug: Ze is over there... wtf

I don't think anyone expects everyone to know about it, and the vast majority of gender neutral people would be fine with being misgendered accidentally, it's when it's done deliberately it's rude.

It's not that people should give a ****. It's that people should probably care about it less. Oh okay they want to be referred to as them instead of he. Fine. In the same way we call people by their nicknames without issue, without saying things like "Well I'll refer to what's on your birth certificate" like some kind of pleb.

[Cherie]

Can you form a sentence and how you would you use it?

[Cherie]

Saying this is like a nickname is just silly a nickname is used just like your normal name

[BBXX]

Can you form a sentence and how you would you use it?

Literally exactly the same way I would say she or he.

"Where is Alfie"
"Ze is by the water cooler"
"Okay I have a meeting with zim shortly"

"Where is Alfie"
"They are by the water cooler"
"Okay I have a meeting with them shortly"

[Cherie]

Literally exactly the same way I would say she or he.

"Where is Alfie"
"Ze is by the water cooler"
"Okay I have a meeting with zim shortly"

"Where is Alfie"
"They are by the water cooler"
"Okay I have a meeting with them shortly"

I rest my case

and don't tell me this is not going to cause offence because some people just live to be offended

[BBXX]

Saying this is like a nickname is just silly a nickname is used just like your normal name

Neo pronouns are used just like he/him/she/her pronouns. :shrug:

I'm not too familiar with ze/zir/zem pronouns and have never had to use them. I would ask the person for clarification or google it should the situation ever arise.

[BBXX]

I rest my case

and don't tell me this is not going to cause offence because some people just live to be offended

What do you mean?

[Cherie]

What if there is someone is the office called Zee

Where is Alfie
Ze is over there

:tongue: honesty the gymnastics you do to justify this shite is just impossible to get my head around

[Cherie]

Neo pronouns are used just like he/him/she/her pronouns. :shrug:

I'm not too familiar with ze/zir/zem pronouns and have never had to use them. I would ask the person for clarification or google it should the situation ever arise.

Just hold a moment Alfie while I google what I need to refer to you as...okay

[Ray.]

I think those particular pronouns are reserved solely for German people.

[BBXX]

What if there is someone is the office called Zee

Where is Alfie
Ze is over there

:tongue: honesty the gymnastics you do to justify this shite is just impossible to get my head around

Okay, that's fine Cherie, you do you and stay mad over... erm... the way other people identify.

Just hold a moment Alfie while I google what I need to refer to you as...okay

I think if someone says "my pronouns are ze/zir/zem" the majority of gender neutral people would absolutely welcome clarification to avoid offence.

"Alfie, I'll be honest I'm not that familiar with those pronouns, can you just tell me the correct situation to use each one in so I make sure I get it right".

Like why am I having to teach a grown adult how to converse in a respectful way.

[Parmy]

I will be very honest here.....If I was Gay I would be deeply embarrassed by all this absolute codswallop.

[BBXX]

Just a reminder that literally all words are made up.

[Cherie]

Okay, that's fine Cherie, you do you and stay mad over... erm... the way other people identify.



I think if someone says "my pronouns are ze/zir/zem" the majority of gender neutral people would absolutely welcome clarification to avoid offence.

"Alfie, I'll be honest I'm not that familiar with those pronouns, can you just tell me the correct situation to use each one in so I make sure I get it right".

Like why am I having to teach a grown adult how to converse in a respectful way.

mmm respect works both ways, not just one way, if non binarys choose to keep changing how they are referred to respectfully I dont have to fall in line,

Just as an aside do you think everyone who starts a thread is mad at stuff, I know that's you just baiting but just to be clear I'm not mad I am bemused by the stupidity and the sheep like acceptance ..

[Parmy]

About time all these selfish brats started respecting people who don't sign up for their stupid name games.

[BBXX]

mmm respect works both ways, not just one way, if non binarys choose to keep changing how they are referred to respectfully I dont have to fall in line

Can you explain why it's disrespectful to you to change how you refer to someone to suit their identity. Do you find it disrespectful to you having to call someone a different surname when they get married and then refer back to their maiden name when they get divorced?


Just as an aside do you think everyone who starts a thread is mad at stuff, I know that's you just baiting but just to be clear I'm not mad I am bemused by the stupidity and the sheep like acceptance ..

No, which is why I actually gave a pretty balanced viewpoint and even agreed with you nobody should be mandated to express their pronouns. I thought you were mad when you called people wanting to identify in a certain way shite.

Maybe I shouldn't have used the word mad, perhaps the right adjective would be miserable.

[Cherie]

Can you explain why it's disrespectful to you to change how you refer to someone to suit their identity. Do you find it disrespectful to you having to call someone a different surname when they get married and then refer back to their maiden name when they get divorced?



No, which is why I actually gave a pretty balanced viewpoint and even agreed with you nobody should be mandated to express their pronouns. I thought you were mad when you called people wanting to identify in a certain way shite.

Maybe I shouldn't have used the word mad, perhaps the right adjective would be miserable.

Just to clarify its not very respectful to others to keep moving the goalposts as to how someone wishes to be referred, its quite demanding and unnecessary.

Mad to Miserable...:joker: you tried with the baiting tbf. I will leave you to it, if you cant engage without trying to get personal digs I am not particularly interested in what you have to say

[Cherie]

About time all these selfish brats started respecting people who don't sign up for their stupid name games.

No no Parmy you must do as they ask no matter how foolish it it :laugh:

[Parmy]

No no Parmy you must do as they ask no matter how foolish it it :laugh:

No I bloody don't. Perhaps if they respected people of my age it may be diffferent, bur they don't. They mock and name call anyone not on their page. Never met such a needy, narcissistical bunch of arseholes in my life.

[Maru]

I would ignore the order either direction because that would be an HR battle they don't want here. The fact it needs enforcement shows it's a farce. In the real world if a person doesn't learn the new tonguetwister, they're a bonehead and it warrants a Tiktok video. Not exactly a compelling argument for personal reforms in 2026. We have ascended beyond such things.

[BBXX]

No I bloody don't. Perhaps if they respected people of my age it may be diffferent, bur they don't. They mock and name call anyone not on their page. Never met such a needy, narcissistical bunch of arseholes in my life.

Intolerance based of bigotry doesn't deserve respect or tolerance.

People spouting racist or homophobic **** don't get a pass just because they've aged for a longer period of time than others. :conf:

[BBXX]

At the end of the day, we are all living on this stupid rock for the first time and I acknowledge not everything about this earth is made for me. I don't understand why someone feels gender neutral, it's not something I can wrap my head around personally, in the same way I don't understand how people believe in God or why someone wearing shirt and pants that are both patterned thinks it looks good, but I just think it's a sad existence to not be respectful of these things to not make someones day worse.

We go through life saying stuff we don't believe all the time. "Yes, it's okay that you're late... again!" "What do you mean you don't like your hair. It looks great!" "Of course Santa Claus is real". We say things we don't believe to make sure we don't upset and we do it without thought or issue because doing it makes no difference to our life.

Humans don't understand or don't believe in lot's of stuff that we simply accept for the sake of politeness on someone else's behalf. To make such an issue of calling someone 'they' instead of 'he' out of 'principle' for their own opinion on it feels jarring and based on something other than their principles. I just personally think it's a silly hill to die on when it makes no measurable difference to you just to refer to someone how they wish.

[Glenn.]

No I bloody don't. Perhaps if they respected people of my age it may be diffferent, bur they don't. They mock and name call anyone not on their page. Never met such a needy, narcissistical bunch of arseholes in my life.

You’re not asking for respect, you’re asking people to tiptoe around you. You slag off a whole group, then act hard done by when they push back. That’s not being disrespected, that’s just people answering you.

[BBXX]

Just to clarify its not very respectful to others to keep moving the goalposts as to how someone wishes to be referred, its quite demanding and unnecessary.

Mad to Miserable...:joker: you tried with the baiting tbf. I will leave you to it, if you cant engage without trying to get personal digs I am not particularly interested in what you have to say

I apologise for getting personal, I shouldn't have. I reacted to what I saw to be inflammatory, mocking language to the subject, but my reaction was poor.

[Parmy]

Intolerance based of bigotry doesn't deserve respect or tolerance.

People spouting racist or homophobic **** don't get a pass just because they've aged for a longer period of time than others. :conf:

And those are the words they come out with, simply because people are not on their page.....you're racist, you're homophobic...no I'm bloody not..but you're a bloody moron expecting people to fold and lie for your feelings...maybe if they earned some respect, then people may be more willing to bend, but they earn sod all respect from me for the way they talk to people that have 40 odd years over them simply for not playing the silly name game.

[Glenn.]

Respect isn’t something you demand by age, it’s something you lose by default when you lead with contempt.

[BBXX]

I think people miss the point on what pronouns are quite a lot to be honest.

Pronouns replace nouns and sometimes that noun has a gender and sometimes it has none or multiple (eg: it might actually be an inanimate object or a collection of people) but it's the noun that is - but not always - gendered, not the pronoun and so if someone doesn't see themselves as a gender, it's linguistically fine to use a pronoun that society has deemed to portray gender neutrality - which is in most cases 'they'. (I think would all agree that if you do not know someones gender because they have a name that could be for a male or female, we say... they...)

We only call boys and men he/him because we've decided socially that's the case. The words themselves don't carry any gender. throughout history the way society uses words have changed and their meanings adapt, or sometimes take on an extra meaning - in the same way sick can be both positive and negative.

As socially we have decided that 'they' is a usage to describe people whose gender is unknown, it also makes sense to use it for people who feel like they have no gender. Therefore it's technically the linguistically the correct word to use for that person, because their gender identity isn't up for anyone else to decide other than themselves and gender identity is psychological and social, not simply based off physical anatomy.

Neo pronouns are newer - those have been used historically - but still exceptionally rare. Like...a fraction of percentage. Which is why it's weird this particular council even referenced it.

[BBXX]

And those are the words they come out with, simply because people are not on their page.....you're racist, you're homophobic...no I'm bloody not..but you're a bloody moron expecting people to fold and lie for your feelings...maybe if they earned some respect, then people may be more willing to bend, but they earn sod all respect from me for the way they talk to people that have 40 odd years over them simply for not playing the silly name game.

It's not specifically about this name game I'm basing it on actual homophobic and racist stuff you've written.

You don't get respect automatically just because you've been growing for a longer period of time, life doesn't it doesn't work that way. Everyone should respect everyone as a default but the things I've seen you write about certain demographics made me not respect you.

[Parmy]

It's not specifically about this name game I'm basing it on actual homophobic and racist stuff you've written.

You don't get respect automatically just because you've been growing for a longer period of time, life doesn't it doesn't work that way. Everyone should respect everyone as a default but the things I've seen you write about certain demographics made me not respect you.




:joker:

TIBBS classification of homophobic comments is way different to the real world, so I don't really give 2 toots about that, i refute the racist slur though. How bloody dare you.

And to anyone buying Into this mumbo jumbo pr9noun nonsense, I do not respect you.

[BBXX]

:joker:

TIBBS classification of homophobic comments is way different to the real world, so I don't really give 2 toots about that, i refute the racist slur though. How bloody dare you.

And to anyone buying Into this mumbo jumbo pr9noun nonsense, I do not respect you.

I don't need you, a straight man, telling me, a gay man, what real homophobia is. Bye.

[Livia]

From now on I'd like everyone to refer to me as Your Magnificence.

[Barry.]

What does zem etc mean? I understand stand they/them but not zem. How would you pronounce it?

[Parmy]

I don't need you, a straight man, telling me, a gay man, what real homophobia is. Bye.

Well unfortunately for you, you are today..


Next you will be telling me not using a non binary person's pronouns is homophobic...:joker:

[Glenn.]

:joker:

TIBBS classification of homophobic comments is way different to the real world, so I don't really give 2 toots about that, i refute the racist slur though. How bloody dare you.

And to anyone buying Into this mumbo jumbo pr9noun nonsense, I do not respect you.

When people you’re talking about tell you it’s homophobic, that’s the answer. You don’t get to overrule it.

[Parmy]

When people you’re talking about tell you it’s homophobic, that’s the answer. You don’t get to overrule it.

That's a shame, cause I always do. Here in my world, I just look at the screen and think...these plebs are not right in the head.


Still to see something that disproves that.

[Livia]

I've been told on here what anti-Semitism is. I've also been told what it isn't. Regularly. I've been expected to just take it on board.

[Parmy]

I've been told on here what anti-Semitism is. I've also been told what it isn't. Regularly. I've been expected to just take it on board.

That's the thing.....it's all them them them or they they they with zem.


Our way or ze highway.. no wonder they want to use German sounding words, effing Nazis.

[Glenn.]

I don’t think that landed the way you thought it would :skull:

[Glenn.]

That's a shame, cause I always do. Here in my world, I just look at the screen and think...these plebs are not right in the head.


Still to see something that disproves that.

You don’t get to redefine homophobia by rolling your eyes at it. Dismissing entire groups as undeserving of respect is the point people are calling out.

[Parmy]

You don’t get to redefine homophobia by rolling your eyes at it. Dismissing entire groups as undeserving of respect is the point people are calling out.

You earn respect, it's not just given out. So the way they are towards other groups, like women or your average working man earns them the respect they deserve.

[Glenn.]

You earn respect, it's not just given out. So the way they are towards other groups, like women or your average working man earns them the respect they deserve.

You keep talking about respect while openly admitting you withhold it by default. Give your head a wobble.

[Oliver_W]

It's very 2017, I thought the whole pronoun-announcement and neopronouns had been laughed off.

[BBXX]

You earn respect, it's not just given out. So the way they are towards other groups, like women or your average working man earns them the respect they deserve.

"The way they are towards women"

Meaning, Parmy, towards women...

Desperate hag

She got brutalized tonight by faggy Anne, was like a scene from Bronson, at least she got a dig in at the boney old hag though.

The other is a desperate hag, phoning the paps beforehand to get a photo opportunity of her being a mother, solely for her own gain.

She should have got what the airport attacked got at 5he end....a swift kick to the face for the entitled little bitch.

He would do well to get shot if the psycho bitch.

She's sat on her scrawny bitch ass

...but she forgot herself for a moment and her nasty bitch came out..

Mmm..k

[Glenn.]

I’d quote some of his homophobic posts but they were reported and alas deleted for being homophobic and a few have led to him being banned.

[Cherie]

I apologise for getting personal, I shouldn't have. I reacted to what I saw to be inflammatory, mocking language to the subject, but my reaction was poor.

Thank you I appreciate it

[Cherie]

I don't know why we are talking about racism and homophobia in a thread about pronouns but thats TiBB for you, correct me if I am wrong but you don't need to be gay to identify as non binary, is that correct, it has nothing to do with sexuality but more how you see your place in the world?

[bots]

just shows you, ZZ top were way ahead of their time

[Parmy]

"The way they are towards women"

Meaning, Parmy, towards women...















Mmm..k





:joker:

You think women care if it's not them being talked about.:hehe:


This is a forum stuff like that is over exaggerated nonsense designed for this forum.


I'm a gentleman to all woman I meet, and none of them care if I refer to Meghan as a hag or a bitch.


So women don't need you, as a gay man. Telling them what's disrespectful to them when a man is describing another women on a forum.

[BBXX]

I don't know why we are talking about racism and homophobia in a thread about pronouns but thats TiBB for you, correct me if I am wrong but you don't need to be gay to identify as non binary, is that correct, it has nothing to do with sexuality but more how you see your place in the world?

You are right, they are two separate things.

I bought up bigotry in general displayed by someone who demands respect because they're old. I just wanted to use it as a reason why people wouldn't respect someone who displays such attitudes even if they are 40 years older... and I guess it spiralled from there.

[Livia]

Fortunately, women never say anything negative about men. Or indeed, about other women.

[Livia]

:joker:

You think women care if it's not them being talked about.:hehe:


This is a forum stuff like that is over exaggerated nonsense designed for this forum.


I'm a gentleman to all woman I meet, and none of them care if I refer to Meghan as a hag or a bitch.


So women don't need you, as a gay man. Telling them what's disrespectful to them when a man is describing another women on a forum.

*applause*

[BBXX]

:joker:
So women don't need you, as a gay man. Telling them what's disrespectful to them when a man is describing another women on a forum.

Oh? I thought that's what we were doing...

You earn respect, it's not just given out. So the way they are towards other groups, like women or your average working man earns them the respect they deserve.

So you're allowed to reprimand and be disrespectful to others groups for your opinion on the way they treat women, while telling me I'm not allowed to do the same when I make a judgement call about you calling women bitches and hags and saying they should get kicked in the face.

Make it make sense.

[BBXX]

Fortunately, women never say anything negative about men. Or indeed, about other women.

Of course they do but an individual giving the moral high ground when they are personally guilty for upholding sexist language against women and encouraging violence towards them is either displaying an incredible lack of intelligence or a significant lack of self-awareness.

[Zizu]

Literally exactly the same way I would say she or he.

"Where is Alfie"
"Ze is by the water cooler"
"Okay I have a meeting with zim shortly"

"Where is Alfie"
"They are by the water cooler"
"Okay I have a meeting with them shortly"


Hopefully tongue in cheek otherwise utter bollox ..

[Glenn.]

What utter bollox

You’ve just demonstrated the point without realising it. “They” already exists in everyday English and has done for centuries. The only thing making it awkward here is your determination to pretend it’s some radical invention instead of normal language you already use.

[BBXX]

They Glenn.

Disecting my personality. He who declared his sexuality as bisexual on TIBB, but now demanding to be referred to as Gay. Simply fed up with the women, tossing them aside like a piece of mouldy bread once he's used them.

To me, that's disgusting and disrespectful. Both to his own true feelings, and to the women has used for his own selfish enjoyment.

Oh dear.

A straight man showing concern for women because of how gay men treat them is like a billionaire showing concern for the environment because a family didn't recycle a milk bottle.

While some gay men can be misogynistic (which needs addressing from within), someone saying they are bisexual and then gay is not an example of that. You just don't understand how sexuality works.

[Vicky.]

Deleted a bunch of posts in here, stick to discussing the topic rather than other members