View Full Version : woman mental age 5 should she be sterlised
sarahtheangel
07-08-2007, 05:48 PM
richard is my boyfriend is a drama , based on a real case , on tonight at 11.05pm channel 4 tonight . a woman aged 24 but mental age 5 gets pregnant by her disabled boyfriend , is given an abortion pill her mother brought off the internet has miscarriage should she be sterlised . her mother says yes her father says no . what do you think and will you watch it , i am . just wanted your views on the matter .:puzzled:
spacebandit
07-08-2007, 06:11 PM
Shades of nazism in the forced sterilisation of what they described as the "mentally subnormal"
In my opinion a surgical procedure should not be performed on anyone unable to fully understand the consequences and the risks, even a relatively low risk key-hole procedure. Unless not having the surgery is life threatening. Again there are arguments on both sides for that regarding that woman and pregnancy
Though the matter of pregnancy in this case is a problem, and loathe as I would be to suggest medication to anyone unable to fully understand possible side effects, you must assume this woman is supervised almost all the time, in which case a monthly contraceptive jab could be a solution.
A tricky one, with arguments on all sides.
Not a decision I would like to have to be involved in for real if it concerned a child of mine
serensilver
07-08-2007, 06:30 PM
if her parents are willing to bring the child up as their own thats good to keep it in the family, but then you've got a '5 year old' being pregnant and going through childbirth/c section etc and will be terrified about what is happening.
i'm not sure how i feel about her being in an adult relashonship if she is mentally only 5 she obviously doesn't know what is going on.
i dont think i'll be watching.
~Kizwiz~
07-08-2007, 06:36 PM
Its such a hard one, I have a brother, who doesnt have the mental age that he is. Now, he see his brother and sisters who have partners and desperately wants what we have, someone to love.
He just wants to be loved
We have had occations in the past where when he has dated, a few women have taken him for a major ride and got money out of him and even claimed that she was expecting his baby and therefore demanded money.
Should he be given the snip??? Of course not...... he is a human being and as a supportive family we have to stand by his wish to look for love even if this results in goodness knows what.
Should this young girl be given a forced steralised??? same answer, no!
yes I watched this programme last night and it was really sad too the only thing that I dissagreed with was where the mother got a tablet off the internet just to give her daughter a miscarriage but the father soon stepped in and tryed to get his daughter strerrlised by the dr but the mother didnt want it to happen but to me i think the father did the right thing in trying to get his daughter to enjoy her outside world.:thumbs:
No, I don't think she should be sterilised under any circumstances. I agree with spacebandit though, that it is a very tricky decision, and I would hate to have to make it.
No matter what her condition, I don't believe any operation should be forced upon her, as she would not even be able to understand what is being done to her.
People will say that it is for her own good. What they really mean is that they are trying to justify making that decision for her.
Lauren
08-08-2007, 10:44 AM
I watched this programme last night and it was so striking...
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say she should be sterilised, this is because watching that miscarriage scene was really haunting. I know the sterilisation process is criticised a lot in this woman because she won't understand what is being done to her - but this is also the case when she had the miscarriage. She didn't know what was happening with her, it would be enough to confuse and stay with someone that had a mature mental age, but I daren't even think what was going through her mind when she was bleeding and had infections etc.
The sterilisation process doesn't mean she stops loving people, having relationships - infact I think it encourages her to live a more normal life, where her parents don't have to watch her every move to ensure she doesn't get pregnant (because as the mother so rightly brought up, what would happen to the child once it was born? Is that so fair?).
People saying that this operation would be forced upon her because she doesn't understand it - surely, therefore, sex is being forced upon her? The subsequent miscarriage was forced upon her?
Lauren that is very true :laugh:
Originally posted by Lauren
People saying that this operation would be forced upon her because she doesn't understand it - surely, therefore, sex is being forced upon her? The subsequent miscarriage was forced upon her?
Yes, that's true. Doesn't make sterilising her right though. The day that people start making decisions about sterilising people because [they think it's the best thing for her, is a very sad one indeed.
Sunny_01
08-08-2007, 12:07 PM
it just isnt as easy as popping to the doctors to ask for someone with a learning disability to be sterilised. The human rights act says that people with a learning disability have the right to refuse this procedure, however the problem then lies with understanding and informed decision making.
This is generally left to the courts to consider. When considering this type of thing they look at whether there are no other ways that this issue can be dealt with without this type of invasive procedure, the likely impact of a pregnancy on the person, the capapcity to understand information provided to them.
All that said and done I just dont agree with it. There are many many forms of contraception that can simply be taken orally if the risk of pregnancy is so high without going down the surgical route. This used to happen a lot years ago to people with downs and recent research suggests that many people with downs might in fact be born infertile.
Lauren
08-08-2007, 12:52 PM
Originally posted by Ruth
Originally posted by Lauren
People saying that this operation would be forced upon her because she doesn't understand it - surely, therefore, sex is being forced upon her? The subsequent miscarriage was forced upon her?
Yes, that's true. Doesn't make sterilising her right though. The day that people start making decisions about sterilising people because they think it's the best thing for her, is a very sad one indeed.
I can totally agree with this viewpoint as well. I'd hate to think that someone has such power over another person as to make life-changing decisions for them. However, there are times when this has to happen - if she's not sterilised then the mother wouldn't allow her to have sex with her boyfriend - which is just forcing another decision on her.
Edit: And Sunny, there are oral contraceptives made available to the girl, but she's at such an age where there would need to be constant administering of them by her mother - who would not be able to tell/check whether she has took them etc. Something the mother said she was not prepared to do.
Sunny_01
08-08-2007, 02:32 PM
so she has the right to refuse her oral medication but not to refuse drastic surgery!! bizzare if you ask me. I am still against them taking such drastic action
I also find it odd that her mother is not prepared to monitor her taking the oral contraception but will happily give her a tablet to induce abortion or have her sterilised.
Lauren
08-08-2007, 03:02 PM
Originally posted by Sunny_01
I also find it odd that her mother is not prepared to monitor her taking the oral contraception but will happily give her a tablet to induce abortion or have her sterilised.
Indeed. The way I see it is by refusing sterilisation she has it in her mind that it's delaying her daughter having sex (which she doesn't want her to do).
sarahtheangel
08-08-2007, 09:34 PM
that drama was so upsetting for me as lauren will no , my twins are 16 but mentally aged 8-10 yrs old , i wanted you to watch it so i could have your views on the situation me and my husband may have to take with our daughter amy , would she understand what was going on with her body if she became pregnant , and the birth process if it went that far , i as a mother do not think she would understand or think it would be fair for her to go through this ,so we may go for the sterlisation progress so she would not have to go through that , i dont belive in abortion unless the mothers life is at risk or the baby would have no quality of life or if a woman was raped . yes there is contraceptives out there amy is epileptic and we have already been told that if she became pregnant on the medication shes on the likely out come would be a deformed baby .
Lauren
08-08-2007, 09:37 PM
Sarah :hug: I can only imagine how upsetting that must have been to watch it for you, but I hope it made things clearer to you. As Amy's mother you know in your heart what is best for her - as the person she cares for most you have the right to make a decision for her. Whatever you do concerning this, I hope it all turns out well.
sarahtheangel
08-08-2007, 09:40 PM
:hug::hug::hug: lauren that means so much to me hearing that from you , thank you ,reading what you said brought a tears to my eyes :hug: thank you xx
serensilver
08-08-2007, 09:45 PM
i dont think that a women who's menatl age is 5 should be having an adult relationship, she is mentally too young to feel any thing sexual and would not understand what is going on surley!
a person with a mental age of 5 will (in my opinion) want to play with her toys etc not be involved in a relatioship which includes sex !
I'm amazed that people can say that they are against abortion, but think it's okay to sterilise someone, who has not made the decision herself to be sterilised!
sarahtheangel
09-08-2007, 09:14 AM
i take it that is that last post was for my bennifit
Well, I'm not arguing with you, and I didn't mean for my post to sound rude, so apologies if it came across that way. It's a debate about a subject which is bound to raise emotions and lots of different viewpoints. I'm just giving my opinion, same as everyone else.
Sunny_01
09-08-2007, 12:49 PM
I share your opinion Ruth and by no means do I mean to upset anyone. I just cant get my head round it, there are so many ways of tackling this issue without the need for invasive surgery. That said I am not in that position, a friend has been and was agasht when her mother suggested sterilisation, she chose not to even consider it.
Lauren
09-08-2007, 11:18 PM
This may come across as me sounding patronising or something, but I don't know how else to put it without it sounding nicer.
I'm going to assume that both Ruth and Sunny don't have first-hand experience of this issue, as in... their own daughter experiencing it (Allow me to be corrected?), and although I fully accept that we're all allowed our opinions on the subject - to criticise someones decision for what they see fit for their OWN DAUGHTER - is just silly. Perhaps you don't agree with it, perhaps you see it as hypocritical in light of abortion (although sterilisation isn't killing a life!!) but someone isn't going to make a decision for their own daughter that would not benefit her in a way.
Perhaps someone with the mental age of 5 has not made the decision to be sterilised Ruth, but neither has she made the decision to have sex, to have an abortion (which lets face it, is what will have to happen unless it's adopted - also bad for the child). Therefore the lesser of the decisions is to sterilise, and I congratulate sarah for seeing what she see's as best for her daughter despite what other people may think - and also a general kudos for the hard work it must take to look after her children, she doesn't get enough appreciation for it.
(PS. I am in no way attacking others opinions, we're all entitled to them - I just think it's "silly" to say someone is hypocritical when making a decision they see best for their own child).
spitfire
09-08-2007, 11:23 PM
I find it a bit strange that an adult would want/have sex with someone who has a mental age of 5.
Lauren
09-08-2007, 11:25 PM
Originally posted by spitfire
I find it a bit strange that an adult would want/have sex with someone who has a mental age of 5.
He had down syndrome so he also had a reduced mental age, also she has the body and (as far as I know) the needs of her actual age.
sarahtheangel
10-08-2007, 09:12 AM
lauren thank you for your support means so much:hug:
Originally posted by Lauren
This may come across as me sounding patronising or something, but I don't know how else to put it without it sounding nicer.
I'm going to assume that both Ruth and Sunny don't have first-hand experience of this issue, as in... their own daughter experiencing it (Allow me to be corrected?), and although I fully accept that we're all allowed our opinions on the subject - to criticise someones decision for what they see fit for their OWN DAUGHTER - is just silly. Perhaps you don't agree with it, perhaps you see it as hypocritical in light of abortion (although sterilisation isn't killing a life!!) but someone isn't going to make a decision for their own daughter that would not benefit her in a way.
Perhaps someone with the mental age of 5 has not made the decision to be sterilised Ruth, but neither has she made the decision to have sex, to have an abortion (which lets face it, is what will have to happen unless it's adopted - also bad for the child). Therefore the lesser of the decisions is to sterilise, and I congratulate sarah for seeing what she see's as best for her daughter despite what other people may think - and also a general kudos for the hard work it must take to look after her children, she doesn't get enough appreciation for it.
(PS. I am in no way attacking others opinions, we're all entitled to them - I just think it's "silly" to say someone is hypocritical when making a decision they see best for their own child).
Who has called someone hypocritical? Certainly not me, and certainly not Sunny.
To be honest, your post did come across as patronising - everyone's opinion is valid whether or not they have personal experience of a situation. I'm not criticising Sarah one iota. What if someone in her position had a child and chose to make a different decision to Sarah? Who would be being 'silly' then?
Finally, this is a forum for serious debate. If people don't want to hear other opinions, then don't start a topic!
Sorry to seem rude, but I don't like being lectured to. I can't be bothered with arguing about it - so I'll say no more.
Lauren
10-08-2007, 09:38 AM
"What if someone in her position had a child and chose to make a different decision to Sarah? Who would be being 'silly' then?"
Like I did say - Sarah's decision is made in the best of her daughters interest, and if someone chose to make a different decision - then they're obviously going to do it in the best of their daughters interest too. Neither are silly, they just know whats best for their daughter (regardless of you saying that thats just an excuse to make a decision for someone).
And whats the point in saying "your post did come across as patronising" - I acknowledged and apologised for that because I realised it did when I didn't mean it - so why did you mention it and claim I was lecturing you?
You didn't straight up say "hypocrite" but you said that it's "amazing" how someone can agree with abortion yet not sterilisation - what else could you have meant?
Furthermore, I ALSO mentioned that I was demeaning anyone elses opinions, yet you still picked up and said "Finally, this is a forum for serious debate. If people don't want to hear other opinions, then don't start a topic!"
And like you said, this is a DEBATES FORUM! Yet you then go on to say "I'm not arguing" ... neither am I? I'm just stating my opinion, you disagree, it's a debate.
To clarify - my comment about abortion/sterilisation obviously hasn't been understood in the way I meant it.
I do have some experience of this issue, although not in the same way that Sarah does. Does that make my opinion more valid? I mean, I know you said everyone's opinion is valid, but when you then call their opinions 'silly' it doesn't really seem like you believe they are valid.
Lauren
10-08-2007, 09:40 AM
Originally posted by Ruth
To clarify - my comment about abortion/sterilisation obviously hasn't been understood in the way I meant it.
I do have some experience of this issue, although not in the same way that Sarah does. Does that make my opinion more valid? I mean, I know you said everyone's opinion is valid, but when you then call their opinions 'silly' it doesn't really seem like you believe they are valid.
I didn't say the opinion was silly. I meant to discount the fact that sarah will obviously be acting in the best interests of her daughter would be silly. You may not have done that, but if anyone had - that would have been silly. Sarah wouldn't work OUT of the interests of her daughter.
Originally posted by Lauren
"What if someone in her position had a child and chose to make a different decision to Sarah? Who would be being 'silly' then?"
Like I did say - Sarah's decision is made in the best of her daughters interest, and if someone chose to make a different decision - then they're obviously going to do it in the best of their daughters interest too. Neither are silly, they just know whats best for their daughter (regardless of you saying that thats just an excuse to make a decision for someone).
And whats the point in saying "your post did come across as patronising" - I acknowledged and apologised for that because I realised it did when I didn't mean it - so why did you mention it and claim I was lecturing you?
You didn't straight up say "hypocrite" but you said that it's "amazing" how someone can agree with abortion yet not sterilisation - what else could you have meant?Maybe ask for clarification of what I meant, before assuming?
Furthermore, I ALSO mentioned that I was demeaning anyone elses opinions, yet you still picked up and said "Finally, this is a forum for serious debate. If people don't want to hear other opinions, then don't start a topic!"
And like you said, this is a DEBATES FORUM! Yet you then go on to say "I'm not arguing" ... neither am I? I'm just stating my opinion, you disagree, it's a debate.
Sure....but I don't recall calling someone else's opinion 'silly'.
Lauren
10-08-2007, 09:42 AM
Originally posted by Ruth
Sure....but I don't recall calling someone else's opinion 'silly'.
Read my above post before putting words in my mouth.
Originally posted by Lauren
Originally posted by Ruth
Sure....but I don't recall calling someone else's opinion 'silly'.
Read my above post before putting words in my mouth.
And likewise, my post about abortion and sterilisation. You put words into my mouth.
Nobody has suggested that Sarah would not act in the best interests of her daughter. I'm sure her daughters best interests are her top priority - and I do mean that; I am NOT being sarcastic.
Sorry, but I don't like being spoken to like a naughty child. YOu yourself said that your post may come across as patronising. I agreed with you - it did. If I wanted a lecture, I'd go back to college.
Finally - I feel somewhat awkward discussing Sarah's situation when she is not online to speak for herself.
Lauren
10-08-2007, 09:49 AM
"Nobody has suggested that Sarah would not act in the best interests of her daughter. I'm sure her daughters best interests are her top priority - and I do mean that; I am NOT being sarcastic."
And again, I said "IF anyone was to suggest this..." I didn't say you had.
I'm stating my opinion just like you are, yet you say I sound like I'm lecturing you and speaking to you like a naughty child. All I'm doing it stating my opinion like everyone else.
I respect your opinion. But you were patronising - you yourself acknowledged that.
Lauren
10-08-2007, 09:52 AM
Originally posted by Ruth
I respect your opinion. But you were patronising - you yourself acknowledged that.
No, I acknowledged that it came across as patronising but I didn't mean it to. Why would I purposefully patronise someone?
I don't know. I don't know you, do I?
Lauren
10-08-2007, 09:56 AM
Gosh sorry, I'll have to remember in the future that stating my opinion automatically means I'm belittling someone.
You wrote:
I'm going to assume that both Ruth and Sunny don't have first-hand experience of this issue, as in... their own daughter experiencing it (Allow me to be corrected?), and although I fully accept that we're all allowed our opinions on the subject - to criticise someones decision for what they see fit for their OWN DAUGHTER - is just silly. Perhaps you don't agree with it, perhaps you see it as hypocritical in light of abortion (although sterilisation isn't killing a life!!) but someone isn't going to make a decision for their own daughter that would not benefit her in a way.
Now, I could be wrong, but that looks to me as though you are reacting to a post made where someone was criticising Sarah's decision. Not a post where you saying "IF someone criticised her decision."
Anyway - I have a day off work and I sure have better things to do than sit here arguing all day - so I'm finished here.
Originally posted by Lauren
Gosh sorry, I'll have to remember in the future that stating my opinion automatically means I'm belittling someone.
:rolleyes:
I respect your opinion - and whether or not I agree with it, I would fight for your right to state it. But what's the problem? You said that your post would sound patronising. It did. I agreed with you.
And as I said before, I really have far better ways than this to spend my time. So I really am finished.
Lauren
10-08-2007, 11:34 AM
Originally posted by Ruth
Not a post where you saying "IF someone criticised her decision."
Originally posted by Lauren
You may not have done that, but if anyone had- that would have been silly.
Originally posted by Lauren
Originally posted by Ruth
Not a post where you saying "IF someone criticised her decision."
Originally posted by Lauren
You may not have done that, but if anyone had- that would have been silly. So why mention Sunny and myself by name? In that post (where you mentioned our names) it definitely read as though you were calling something that one of us said 'silly'. Go back and read it, and you may see what I mean. I'm not referring to the later posts where you said that you hadn't said that. And why would you say something was 'silly' if you did not believe that anyone had even suggested that anyway?
Lauren
10-08-2007, 06:30 PM
I said to criticise someone for doing something they see fit for their own child is silly, nothing more nor nothing less?
Thats what the whole debate is about though? Whether sterilisation should take place, and I was simply stating that to suggest someone was working out of their childrens interests was silly. I didn't say someone had said that - but thats the other side of the coin.
sarahtheangel
10-08-2007, 10:18 PM
in all honesty the reply you gave back to me ruth was upsetting and yes you appolgised for it . i dont wish to cause any arguments with you or lauren or sunny , i just wanted other peoples opions on the issue unfortunatally i got more than i wanted . i would like to say thank you too lauren for fighting my corner and i will now close the thread. if i new how :puzzled:
Sarah, I never meant to upset you, and I'm sorry that I did. However, you must have known when you started the thread that you might hear some opinions you wouldn't like? After all, on any given subject it is highly unlikely that everybody will agree.
I don't see what I said that was so upsetting - except for my one post about abortion/sterilisation, which came over harsher than I meant it to, and which was obviously misunderstood by Lauren. Could have been my fault for the way I phrased it.
Only admin or a moderator can close a thread. Maybe they will do so if they see this, or you could u2u them if you want.
Oh and for what it's worth - despite the implications to the contrary, I never suggested for one second that you might not act in the best interests of your daughters. I would never say that and never think it.
sarahtheangel
13-08-2007, 10:18 AM
i dont wish to fall out with anyone on this forum , let alone you ruth so i wont to appolagise and say i should have really thought hard before starting this thread and would aso like to say sorry to the 3 of you if i caused any arguments .
Sunny_01
13-08-2007, 11:49 AM
wow all this and I missed it.
Ok for what its worth when this thread was opened it was not made clear that we were debating someone on this forum and their decision, it does make it more personal as we all really care about each other.
Lauren I am aware that you and Ruth have debated this but I have to say in no way, shape or form did either of us say anything that would imply we felt someone was hypocritical. We simply said how we felt about a situation and stated our thoughts. Now not for one minute do I think my view point is the right one, but it is how I feel about the issue. I cant help that my view point is opposed to that of another forum member and their real life situation. I do really care that someone is going through this terrible decision making process.
I think that sometimes we read into things way to much and assume that things are written in a certain way, thats the problem when communicating on a forum, people interpret things in their own way.
I will say that when your post was made Lauren the whole thing appeared to be directed at myself and Ruth, and in fact it was patronising but you acknolwedged that it might come across as that way so no harm no foul.
sarahtheangel
14-08-2007, 09:07 AM
i did not make it clear it was about my family , i took this oportunity wth the drama being shown to see what others would think was right or wrong , so sunny are you saying if you had known it was about my family you would have answered me differntly ,
Sunny_01
14-08-2007, 09:14 AM
Sarah I would have stood by how I feel about the issue, but I think that if I am honest I would have really thought about how I worded it etc.. had I known it involved you. The last thing anyone wants to do is upset another member, especially when it is something as sensitive as this is.
We can all have our thoughts, feelings about an issue but for you it is intensly personal and as soon as people ctiricised the woman you said that you were in the same position which made it tough for people. Thats the human nature bit of it all, we want to air our views but we want to do them in a way that is least offensive.
sarahtheangel
14-08-2007, 09:17 AM
i think your right i instintly took offence how things were worded ,at 1 point i was going to leave the forum . the world we live in is so cruel isnt it we never no what deck of cards we will be handed out .
Sunny_01
14-08-2007, 04:55 PM
Sarah never ever let what anyone says (me included) make you feel as if you should leave this forum. Everyone here has strong opinions but the nice thing is we genreally (like now) work things through as we all want to respect each other.
Of course you became defensive, it is a personal issue to you, I would probably reacted the same way you did to the comments made by myself and others. We just all need to remember I suppose that most issues in this world have or will at some point affect someone on this forum.
Lauren
14-08-2007, 05:02 PM
Can I just apologise to Sunny and Ruth. What I said wasn't intended to offend neither of you. It was one of those times where my English completely let me down when I was trying to get my point across.
First of all, Sunny and Ruth - I didn't intend to undermine your opinions. I was trying to insinuate how it's the parents choice because they'd choose the best for their child - but I accidentally made it sound like I was criticising both of your opinions.
Secondly, Ruth, I'm sorry for coming off as patronising - I really don't mean to do it but sometimes when I state my opinion I come across as "matter of fact" and I really don't want to undermine peoples opinions, especially when it's a open debate for everyone. I acknowledge it may come across as patronising because I read it back to myself and recognised that tone - but I didn't know how to change it to make it seem otherwise.
Finally, I reacted badly because I know how hard sarah works for her children, and I know Sunny and Ruth weren't criticising her for any of that - but I put my opinion across too strongly and again - that was never my intention.
Sorry if I hurt anybody by my remarks, I didn't mean to come across so strongly or as if I was criticising an opinion.
Sunny_01
14-08-2007, 05:12 PM
Lauren no harm no foul - lets have a group hug :dance2:
Seriously though I am happy to draw a line under it, I think with such a strong topic that has huge implications for another member things do get heated and things are said and taken out of context.
Thanks for the apology though Lauren
Lauren
14-08-2007, 05:27 PM
Thanks for forgiving me Sunny. :spin2: Sorry again if I insulted you in my first post.
Now for the most important part, GROUP HUG! :hug:
sarahtheangel
14-08-2007, 10:24 PM
im so glad we have al sorted this out and would still like to say a big thank you to lauren who on many occasion i have asked for her advise which is always very good , and ruth and sunny can we all forgive and forget our little miss understanding a big group hug for the 4 of us i think we need it:hug:
Sunny_01
15-08-2007, 09:13 AM
I loved the group hug ladies!! Sarah I am glad you have the friendship of Lauren who feels from what I see a lot for you. We all get touchy about each other round here.
Ruth get yourself in here for this group hug :kiss:
Sarah - I honestly never meant to upset or criticize you, and if anything I said seemed unsensitive, I am sorry. I'm very glad you decided not to leave the forum.
Lauren - sorry to you also. I overreacted to what you wrote, and I shouldn't have done that. I guess it happens when we have strong views about things, and I got a bit carried away.
Sunny - always the voice of reason:hello: This forum is a better place for you being part of it.
I have to go now, as I am writing this on a German computer, and the keyboard is different to my own. It is taking me ages to write any posts at all, which is why I have not written as much here as I wanted to.
Group hugs all the way!!:hug::hug:
sarahtheangel
15-08-2007, 10:03 PM
ruth:hug:
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