View Full Version : abortion
supernoodles!
14-10-2007, 07:40 PM
I am against abortion,i would say 100% but the only way id consider abortion is if i knew 100% that my baby would die virtually immediatley after it was born if possibly if i was told it would have a terrible terminal illness.I cant think of an example right now but I do know that say if my baby were to have downs syndrome I would not consider abortion.What are your views.
Billy
14-10-2007, 07:42 PM
My views are that every situation is different, and I dont see why anyone should judge someone byh aving an abortion, unless they know the ins and out of teh situation
XxShortyxX
14-10-2007, 07:43 PM
I'm for it, what about if a women get's raped? Ok it ent the baby's fault.
Or a teenage girl? I am defo for it.
supernoodles!
14-10-2007, 07:45 PM
i dont judge people i just think its wrong,always have always will.I can understand why some women who have been raped and as a rsult become pregnant choose abortion but even then i am still totally against it.I dont know if id raise the baby myself,id consider adoption
Retroman
14-10-2007, 07:47 PM
Most situations involving abortion involve the mother not wanting the baby for some reason or another...
Or occasionally the father pressuring her into it.
If this is the case, no matter what the reason, she should have took more responsibility not to get pregnant in the first place and not seek abortion as an easy way to correct her immature and thoughtless actions.
However, if the baby was to be terminally ill, I could accept that, as well as if she was raped.
If the baby was a complete accident even though the parents took full precautions [which rarely happens.] then id personally prefer them to have the baby and if it's unwanted, at least give it a chance with adoption to have a happy life. But if they chose to get rid of something that was inflicted upon them due to pure accidental reasons out of their control, then I guess they have every right to do so.
i think it wrong to and im agaibst it but in all honesty if i was a teenage girl who got rapped and ended up pregnant i wouldnt even consider keeping the baby!
Wasted
14-10-2007, 07:54 PM
I'm against it if it's a case where someone has casual sex, gets pregnant, and just decides that they don't want the baby just because it's inconvenient to them. If having a baby to look after is inconvenient for them, they could give birth anyway and someone else who can't have children, but really wants a child, can have it.
If the couple used methods of contraception that didn't work but the mother became pregnant anyway, but didn't want a child, then I still think she could at least give birth to the child and let someone else who would like a child to look after it.
But if it's a situation where having the baby is a danger to the mother's life/health or if it turns out that the baby may die after birth, I'm not against it. I'm also not against it if a woman was raped and ended up pregnant, it's a sad situation, as it would also be unfair to the child, and they would be an innocent victim, like the mother.
I'm sure there are lots and lots of scenarios where the issue of having abortion would arise, and I probably have different opinions in each situation, as Billy said.
supernoodles!
14-10-2007, 08:01 PM
If i were to get pregnant now with my boyfriend (as im not sleeping with anyone else lol) i would be absolutly devastated,distraught,petrified.I would be angry at myself and feel like id thrown everything i care about right now away,my freedom,my teenage years when i should be having fun and not worry about stuff like money and having no responsibilities in general.Id also have thrown my education and the career i want away as there would be no way i could afford university and i wouldnt be able to finsih college either.
But....
there is absolutly no way I would get rid of the baby and a tiny tiny part of me would be excited and overjoyed.
Sod_James
14-10-2007, 09:11 PM
I fink abortion is only ok with certain circumstances like rape.
I dont think ppl should be allowed to have an abortion just cos they dont want the baby because then they never learn from the situation. i know somone who got pregnant and got it aborted just cos she didnt want it.
A couple of nights later she went out and got pregnant again but by the time she found out it was to late to have it aborted.
supernoodles!
14-10-2007, 09:26 PM
thats just sick.You know some people can never have children or go through mis carrige after miscarrige and never have a baby of their own or some people have to experience loosing their own child and yet there are people like that in the world.
I just think thats really wrong.sorry.
i totally agree with this its awful but recently my niece Kimberely had to have an abortion because she had a very bad siss in here tummy and it was meant that either her or the new baby would die when the baby was born but my brother is normally very against it he wasnt pleased at first but now hes come to terms with it but thats how it had to go but shes fine now gladly asd she does have a little boy Aramarni whos lovely :thumbs:
supernoodles!
14-10-2007, 09:32 PM
aww im deeply sorry to hear that ann,thats terrible.I cant imagine how having to go through something like that must feel.Glad to hear she has a lovely little boy though,i wish your niece well:thumbs:
thank you supernoodles i will tell her that when i see her :hug:
Adoption is no answer...most children who are eligible for adoption will never be adopted. There are thousands of children hoping to be adopted RIGHT NOW, who have no chance of ever being. That's just an easy answer.
I don't agree with abortion as a method of contraception - but I REALLY don't agree with forcing someone to bring an unwanted baby into the world. If people were forced to see their pregnancy through, the chances are you would either be sentencing that child to a lifetime of resentment by their parent(s) or a lifetime stuck in our already stretched to the limits care system.
And it amazes me when people say abortion is okay only if the mother is raped. The general argument against abortion is that you are killing an innocent life (that's not what I personally think, but that seems to be what anti-abortionists think). A rapist's baby is innocent, is it not? But it's okay to kill it because it is a child of rape? What about if the woman chose to have the baby and then hated it, because it was a constant reminder of the rape? What about if she killed that child because the father had raped her? By all your arguments - that's okay.
There's just no logic to it.
I'm fully pro-choice. Abortion is never going to be outlawed (face it), and thank goodness. If it was, we would return to the days of back street abortions (surely you're not naive enough to think that people would not try and abort their babies just because it was illegal)? which would put both the mother and child's life at risk.
And Sod_James - in reference to the girl you wrote about: how can you say that such a person should not be allowed to have an abortion? She is clearly unable to take any sort of responsibility for herself, so the chances of her being able to look after a helpless child are zilch. Do you think we should make irresponsible people have babies? Do you think that's a good idea to entrust the life of a baby to someone so careless? And don't give me the adoption answer - I've already said that that is no solution.
I'm sorry about your niece Ann. That's a terrible thing for her to go through, and I hope she is feeling much better now. That's a whole different issue though.
I/want/To/Marry/Chanelle
14-10-2007, 10:36 PM
I say a definite YES to abortion. If a woman gets pregnant and decides for whatever reason that she does not wish to have that child, then destroy it by abortion. It sounds cruel and heartless I know, but for some women it is worse just keeping it. Every person and every situation will be different for each individual who finds themselves having to make this hard decision. But for many, it is the right and only decision.
So then you have to imagine a life without abortion being allowed:puzzled: for many women, that thought is hardly worth thinking about:bawling: many women just can't cope with having a child and destroying it at that early stage is much easier all round. With no abortion being available, there would be tons of unwanted children out there and nobody really wants that, do they?
That can be crueller.
Sod_James
15-10-2007, 01:25 PM
Originally posted by Ruth
And Sod_James - in reference to the girl you wrote about: how can you say that such a person should not be allowed to have an abortion? She is clearly unable to take any sort of responsibility for herself, so the chances of her being able to look after a helpless child are zilch. Do you think we should make irresponsible people have babies? Do you think that's a good idea to entrust the life of a baby to someone so careless? And don't give me the adoption answer - I've already said that that is no solution.
O yeh so just kill the baby - thats fair aint it. Just because the girl is too selfish and careless. There are plenty of couples out there who would give their right arm for a child. I would rather see the child adopted rather than terminated.
Legend
15-10-2007, 02:34 PM
I'm for it also. There are far too many unwanted kids in the world as it is without bringing any more. I think that under all circumstances it should happen, even if someone falls pregnant after sex, doesn't like the idea and wants rid then they should have the option of abortion.
I think people who say ''it shouldn't be allowed, blah blah blah'' are selfish as firstly, it's not fair on the mother, she shouldn't be ''stuck'' because that's how she'd feel, she shouldn't be stuck with a baby she doesn't want and secondly, the baby shouldn't be brought up by someone who doesn't want them ... what a great childhood they'd have eh?
Yeah it's irresponsible that they fell pregnant and all the rest of it but even so, nobody should be FORCED to keep a baby they don't want. And you can't even say ''put them up for adoption'' because as it's been said previously, there are enough kids waiting to be adopted and not enough families for them all so that's by no means a solution.
If I was to get a girl pregnant now then I would be absolutely devastated and if she brought up an abortion then honestly I'd be so relieved and this is the case with a lot of people so why should children have to suffer just because some people think that abortions are not ''morally right''? If abortions were illegal then there would be SO many more unwanted, unhappy and miserable kids in the world so for that reason as well as others, I am 110% for abortion under all circumstances.
Mental-Minnie
15-10-2007, 02:59 PM
I'm pro choice. Adoption is not the answer. There are already far to many kids in the system as it is.
People who suggest adoption as the answer clearly have no idea about the figures for babies in care and prospective adoptive parents. A good idea would be to learn about such things before you bring that up as a potential solution.
Sod_James - you think it's okay to bring a child into the world with parents who are clearly incapable of looking after it, and who could well end up resenting it? You think it's okay to sentence a child to a life of misery because it eases your conscience?
Just tried to edit my response, but this computer won't let me - so I'll post again here. What about my comments about people thinking abortion is okay if the woman is raped? How can people say they are against abortion unless she is raped? As I said before, by that token, you are saying it's okay to kill a baby once it's born if it was the product of rape. You can't have it both ways - either you are completely for or completely against abortion. No exceptions. Of course, that's just my opinion. But nobody has ever provided a reasonable explanation for why they think abortion should be outlawed except in the case of rape.
Emilee
15-10-2007, 06:02 PM
Its right in the correct circumstances
supernoodles!
15-10-2007, 09:08 PM
Ruth you`ve got a valid point,but its just my personal opinion.Im agaisnt abortion,im not against other people doing it (although i still think its wrong).I cant put myself in someone elses situation and feel how it would feel for them,i can understand that sometimes and i mean very occasionaly its the right thing to do I just no that I`ll never have an abortion myself unless of course the child is terminaly ill inwhich case i may consider it as i think in certain circumstances it more cruel to let the child live.
Its just the mums to be who go around having abortions for pathetic reasons such as 'there to young' , they 'cant afford it' , 'they`ll have no career' , 'there a single mum'.Im sorry i dont give a stuff,you were so careless and got pregnant,bloody grow up and deal with it instead of killing your own baby becuase of your own selfishness,laziness and damn right carelessness
Sod_James
15-10-2007, 09:20 PM
Originally posted by Ruth
People who suggest adoption as the answer clearly have no idea about the figures for babies in care and prospective adoptive parents. A good idea would be to learn about such things before you bring that up as a potential solution.
Sod_James - you think it's okay to bring a child into the world with parents who are clearly incapable of looking after it, and who could well end up resenting it? You think it's okay to sentence a child to a life of misery because it eases your conscience?
No im simply saying that i believe that a child should at least be given a chance of life. A life is a life no matter what type of life it is and i personally believe that no one should have the right to deny life.
Thats like saying disabled people should be put down early in life because their quality or length of life would not be that of a normal average person.
A child should at least be given a shot at life before ppl simply say, oh that child wont be loved so lets kill it. there are allways more than one way around things.
The thing is supernoodles and Sod_James - your posts almost seem to be saying that if a woman gets pregnant because she was irresponsible, she should keep the baby almost as a kind of punishment to her. I just can't agree with that.
And James (and please don't think I am having a go at you, because I'm not) to say a life is a life no matter what, is incredibly short sighted. You're saying it's okay to give a child life when you know even before that child is born that you won't be able to give it a happy life? That you won't be able to look after it properly? That you are not financially or emotionally capable of looking after it?
Or you could go down the adoption route of course, and give the child the prospect of years stuck in our care system. Because the chances of it being adopted are extremely slight. No doubt you will think it is better to give the child a chance at being adopted. But you will be giving a better chance of spending a life in care with no hope of ever being adopted.
If all the babies that had been aborted in the last, say, 10 years had not been aborted, our country would not even be able to cope with the high population - we are stretched to the limit as it is.
You said that abortion is okay if the mother is raped. What do you think about the point I made about that? I've raised it twice, but so far, nobody has made any kind of response.
Sunny_01
16-10-2007, 08:38 AM
We have a thread about abortion in this section already!
I support and agree with everything Ruth has already said. Abortion is a personal choice that women make based on their personal circumstances. I made a choice at 16 to have a baby and I can tell you it was never easy. I am lucky in that I have a loving supportive, nurturing family, many other teenage mothers are not as lucky as I was and are left isolated and lonely. They end up resenting the very child they made the decision to have.
The great thing about this country is we as women are all entitled to a choice about what we do or do not do with our bodies and that includes the decision to terminate a pregnancy.
Not every woman that gets pregnant and wants to end the pregnancy is irresponsible, often contraception fails, no contraceptive is 100% effective, so what about them? Do those that have had failed contraception get classed as irresponsible?
The care system is bursting at the seams, there are not enough "suitable" adoptive parents to take all the children already in our system. I would certainly not want to be responsible for putting a child into the local authority care system in this country, it isnt a pretty life. They move from home to hom, foster carer to foster carer. What kind of life is that? Some end up in the system through circumstance, but to bring a child into the world knowing that is what you plan!!
Sod_James
16-10-2007, 10:21 AM
Originally posted by Ruth
The thing is supernoodles and Sod_James - your posts almost seem to be saying that if a woman gets pregnant because she was irresponsible, she should keep the baby almost as a kind of punishment to her. I just can't agree with that.
And James (and please don't think I am having a go at you, because I'm not) to say a life is a life no matter what, is incredibly short sighted. You're saying it's okay to give a child life when you know even before that child is born that you won't be able to give it a happy life? That you won't be able to look after it properly? That you are not financially or emotionally capable of looking after it?
Or you could go down the adoption route of course, and give the child the prospect of years stuck in our care system. Because the chances of it being adopted are extremely slight. No doubt you will think it is better to give the child a chance at being adopted. But you will be giving a better chance of spending a life in care with no hope of ever being adopted.
If all the babies that had been aborted in the last, say, 10 years had not been aborted, our country would not even be able to cope with the high population - we are stretched to the limit as it is.
You said that abortion is okay if the mother is raped. What do you think about the point I made about that? I've raised it twice, but so far, nobody has made any kind of response.
Your points are valid and i respect your opinion because everyone is entitled to one. But i simply believe that a abortion is wrong and it shouldnt be allowed just because they believe they couldnt cope.
But at the end of the day everyone is different.
Mental-Minnie
16-10-2007, 10:24 AM
Originally posted by Sod_James
Originally posted by Ruth
The thing is supernoodles and Sod_James - your posts almost seem to be saying that if a woman gets pregnant because she was irresponsible, she should keep the baby almost as a kind of punishment to her. I just can't agree with that.
And James (and please don't think I am having a go at you, because I'm not) to say a life is a life no matter what, is incredibly short sighted. You're saying it's okay to give a child life when you know even before that child is born that you won't be able to give it a happy life? That you won't be able to look after it properly? That you are not financially or emotionally capable of looking after it?
Or you could go down the adoption route of course, and give the child the prospect of years stuck in our care system. Because the chances of it being adopted are extremely slight. No doubt you will think it is better to give the child a chance at being adopted. But you will be giving a better chance of spending a life in care with no hope of ever being adopted.
If all the babies that had been aborted in the last, say, 10 years had not been aborted, our country would not even be able to cope with the high population - we are stretched to the limit as it is.
You said that abortion is okay if the mother is raped. What do you think about the point I made about that? I've raised it twice, but so far, nobody has made any kind of response.
Your points are valid and i respect your opinion because everyone is entitled to one. But i simply believe that a abortion is wrong and it shouldnt be allowed just because they believe they couldnt cope.
But at the end of the day everyone is different.
Listen to your words. Where you might be able to cope, someone else might not. Like you said, we're all different.
supernoodles!
16-10-2007, 03:30 PM
Yeah I know,I accept that its right for some wrong for others.My point is that I PERSONALLY would not choose abortion.Even if I was taking the pill,bf used a condom or whatever,if i still managed to get pregnant I would not ever consider abortion
Christina
24-03-2008, 11:19 AM
(Ive posted this on the other abortion thread aswell the person asked whether abortion should be legal or not legal btw..)
This is a subject that always puzzles me as i have to agree with both sides.
I dont think its right to kill a human being either and i think if its youre fault (for not using a condom) then that makes it even worse. But at the same time supposen the person is not ready to have a child? and they feel that they cant give a child the life it needs? then why put the child through all that suffering? And its the same case for a girl/women who might of been raped, imagine if having an abortion was illegal and that person would have to bring up the baby (possibly hating it) and the child would probably feel so unloved if they were to find out how they were brought into the world. So i suppose i think it should be legal as the person having the baby must know if there ready for a baby or not and they do have the right to make up their own minds. x
I'm all for it. I don't believe in bringing kids into the world when they aren't wanted and if the parents don't have the financial means to bring them up. Its all well and good us saying they should put them into care instead, but I think thats even worse than killing something that could be a person because the parents will have knowledge that someone out there is a part of them living with someone else not knowing who its real parents are, and one day they might have to answer. Its just not as black and white or as easy as people think it is.
Conor
24-03-2008, 12:08 PM
I admit I'm split on this one. A child may grow up to be a great, successful person. Though to get there they may have lived a life of abuse.
Christina
24-03-2008, 12:51 PM
Originally posted by Tom_
I'm all for it. I don't believe in bringing kids into the world when they aren't wanted and if the parents don't have the financial means to bring them up. Its all well and good us saying they should put them into care instead, but I think thats even worse than killing something that could be a person because the parents will have knowledge that someone out there is a part of them living with someone else not knowing who its real parents are, and one day they might have to answer. Its just not as black and white or as easy as people think it is. I agree x
x.Nicola.x
03-04-2008, 05:19 PM
I, personally am against it in some cases. But I would never judge a woman for having an abortion. I think that if the woman has been raped, then the mother can if she wishes have an abortion but I think that having an abortion because the child will have a disability such as downs syndroms or if the parents are happy with the sex of the baby is wrong. There is always adoption and there are some people wishing to adopt who will love and care for the child if the parents don't want it. I think though that the age limit for having an abortion should be lowered to 12 weeks. I think 22/24 weeks is just too far into the pregnancy.
Shaun
03-04-2008, 07:08 PM
Originally posted by Conor
I admit I'm split on this one. A child may grow up to be a great, successful person.
Yeah, they might grow up to be a terrorist. Maybe a paedophile. A murderer?
Bit impossible to dispute what they might be, really.
Originally posted by x.Nicola.x
I, personally am against it in some cases. But I would never judge a woman for having an abortion. I think that if the woman has been raped, then the mother can if she wishes have an abortion but I think that having an abortion because the child will have a disability such as downs syndroms or if the parents are happy with the sex of the baby is wrong. There is always adoption and there are some people wishing to adopt who will love and care for the child if the parents don't want it. I think though that the age limit for having an abortion should be lowered to 12 weeks. I think 22/24 weeks is just too far into the pregnancy.
Some people don't know they are pregnant until around 15-20 weeks.
It gets into quite an interesting debate. There are case studies where babies have been born at 24 weeks and have survived and have grown up to be normal and healthy. There was also a case where a baby was born at 23 weeks but doctors refused to treat it because its counted as a miscarriage, but it could have lived.
Does this mean that aborting a baby at 24 weeks is murder?
secrets
10-04-2008, 06:11 PM
to kill a child is never right whatever the circumstance..........usually in later life the mother is plagued with guilt and it becomes a life long torment.!
every child,no matter the circumstance, ALWAYS should have a right to life.
Legend
10-04-2008, 10:21 PM
Originally posted by secrets
to kill a child is never right whatever the circumstance..........usually in later life the mother is plagued with guilt and it becomes a life long torment.!
every child,no matter the circumstance, ALWAYS should have a right to life.
Yeah but that entirely depends on when you view them as "a child". The moment of conception, 24 weeks, birth?
MrGaryy
10-04-2008, 10:23 PM
Would never want it but I'm defo not against it. I think there are dozens of situations where it would be morally wrong to have a baby, knowing it would never have the life it deserves.
Sticks
11-04-2008, 07:11 AM
As for the argument that there are too many babies in care, so adoption is not and answer so lets crank up the abortion lines..
Why are social services coming up with flimsey excuses to remove babies from people if there is a surplus? It is because it is easy to place babies for adoption than older children. The figures for children in care are for those with disabilities or who are older. Adopting a baby away is still a possible alternative.
When does life begin?
Conception
In law we identify individuals by DNA, so if you look at the mother and the foetus you will find that the foetus has it's own different DNA. So by the way we identify criminals in our legal system, the foetus is a person.
Getting back to other arguments, suppose a woman gets pregnant by a man. (Not Rape) but then the man goes onto or has found to have been involved in something horrific. Is the child (Sorry foetus) tainted?
Another way of the rape issue, is that by choosing the abortion route, are you not letting the man off of the hook? He caused the child to be. In non rape cases, the man is also responsible for the child, financialy. By getting rid of it, this relieves the man of a financial penalty, even after he has served his sentence, (assuming a conviction is obtained)
Finally to add to this mix, some might argue that even if a woman wanted to keep the child, she should in law be made to have a termination if the father does not want it. Are some advocating that?
Finally finally, because of a court case some years ago about something else, it is possible theoretically for someone under the age of 18 to be made to have a termination even if they do not want one.
More on that one when I get back from work.
Originally posted by Ruth
Adoption is no answer...most children who are eligible for adoption will never be adopted. There are thousands of children hoping to be adopted RIGHT NOW, who have no chance of ever being. That's just an easy answer.
I don't agree with abortion as a method of contraception - but I REALLY don't agree with forcing someone to bring an unwanted baby into the world. If people were forced to see their pregnancy through, the chances are you would either be sentencing that child to a lifetime of resentment by their parent(s) or a lifetime stuck in our already stretched to the limits care system.
And it amazes me when people say abortion is okay only if the mother is raped. The general argument against abortion is that you are killing an innocent life (that's not what I personally think, but that seems to be what anti-abortionists think). A rapist's baby is innocent, is it not? But it's okay to kill it because it is a child of rape? What about if the woman chose to have the baby and then hated it, because it was a constant reminder of the rape? What about if she killed that child because the father had raped her? By all your arguments - that's okay.
There's just no logic to it.
I'm fully pro-choice. Abortion is never going to be outlawed (face it), and thank goodness. If it was, we would return to the days of back street abortions (surely you're not naive enough to think that people would not try and abort their babies just because it was illegal)? which would put both the mother and child's life at risk.
And Sod_James - in reference to the girl you wrote about: how can you say that such a person should not be allowed to have an abortion? She is clearly unable to take any sort of responsibility for herself, so the chances of her being able to look after a helpless child are zilch. Do you think we should make irresponsible people have babies? Do you think that's a good idea to entrust the life of a baby to someone so careless? And don't give me the adoption answer - I've already said that that is no solution.
I was going to post a message in this thread, but you've pretty much covered everything I was going to say. Completely agree.
If you are against abortion because you believe that the 'child is innocent' and 'life is precious' ... does the quality of that child's life not mean anything either?
In my own personal opinion the amount of weeks allowed to abort till should be brought down sufficiently and then money from less abortions could be (hopefully) put into more help for the parent after the birth, and there should be more information in abortion clinics about adoption. If they are so willing to get rid of the baby, give it to someone else who cant have babies.
I dont feel people quite understand the size of this issue until you see someone close to you give birth and you have an immense connection with that baby. Just the thought of my sister having an abortion and me never being able to meet my niece is scary.
I think its the easy way to get out of things, and people should be more responsible, the only time it should be accepted is in case of rape (Although adoption should be considered deeply) or if any disabilities are developing on the baby, if the baby will be better off being aborted then that I can understand. But im 100% against abortion and if I ever got a girl pregnant I would take that responsibility and accept I made a mistake and bring up the kid. I wouldnt be a wuss and I would be a man and accept my responsibility.
Eugh the thought of aborting a perfectly healthy innocent baby makes me sick.
And to add to that:
I dont personally think it matters when life begins, i believe life begins when the baby can live outside of the womb. But more than that... is that it has the potential to be life and it is destroying nature.
Matt10k
23-06-2008, 03:20 PM
I think, as medical advances show babies are able to survive at increasingly younger ages, the limit should be brought down accordingly.
I agree with the politicians wanting a reduction from 24 weeks to 20 weeks.
So I am for abortion but I think it needs to be tightly controlled.
dcmcak
24-06-2008, 01:05 AM
my opinion is that the babys life hasnt started yet, so if it dies, it wont really have anything t loose. regardless of whether it lives or not, it still hasnt started its proper life. the thing is, if the baby is going to ruin someones life in any way then the womans life has begun and she shouldnt have to suffer. think of the already living person rather than something which has nothing to loose.
Ashleee:)
24-06-2008, 01:09 AM
Its a personal choice, and who are we to judge a woman for thinking that the best choice is an abortion?
One of my closest friends had an abortion. It was the right choice for her, and she doesnt regret it. Nobody knows the circumstancs of the decision except a select few.
i personally will not say whether i would do it, as you never know what could happen in your life.
Eugh, what bugs me is people just play around and have such an easy ride and get to do what they want, if people took the right precautions you wouldn't get pregnant if you are not in a serious relationship you should be wearing protection and someone should be taking a pill, man or woman. This way it is extremely unlikely that you can get pregnant, something like one in a million.
If you cant take the responsibility to do that, then you should be a grown up and have the baby, if your upset you are pregnant then its your own fault and this is a life... are you going to rid someones life because it messes with your career plan? Tough, in a few years i hope to pass Uni and go into a good career of acting, but if I got a girl pregnant I would drop all that because I have morals and I would not throw away anyones life for my career.
I reckon people should start growing up and being responsible there is so much protection out there, but the fact is people are lazy and pop in for an abortion when they feel like it.
If a woman that i got pregnant wanted an abortion I would literally beg her not too, I would even tell her I would take the baby off her hands and she would never have to see it. Yes she has to go through the pain of delivering it, but both of us have to suffer for not being responsible I would raise the baby her side of the bargain is to give birth... so to speak. Abortion used to be what people did when they were desperate and would go to great lengths now that it has been made legal it is tossed around to much as if its a normal thing to do. If I know anyone that has had an abortion I would be personally disgusted in them.
To me its as bad as murder.
I personally think Abortion should stay legal. Whilst in the womb it's not even a proper formed baby and cannot feel anything.
If they were killing the baby when it was born however, would be a totally different matter, disgraceful and disgusting!!
Sticks
30-06-2008, 06:05 AM
Originally posted by Kore
I personally think Abortion should stay legal. Whilst in the womb it's not even a proper formed baby and cannot feel anything.
So you have not yet seen
The Silent Scream (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Silent_Scream) then
I personally do not believe abortion is the issue.
The issue is in educating, whether through school/media/parents, young people to behave responsibly when it comes to sex to prevent them becoming pregnant in the first place.
Sticks
30-06-2008, 04:17 PM
How about teaching abstinence
Originally posted by Sticks
How about teaching abstinence
Thats just unrealistic and I don't think education would solve the issue because protection is only 98% effective.
To tell a teenager not to do something is probably going to make them go and do it (within reason and morality).
Sticks
11-07-2008, 06:13 AM
Originally posted by Fom
If a woman that i got pregnant wanted an abortion I would literally beg her not too, I would even tell her I would take the baby off her hands and she would never have to see it. Yes she has to go through the pain of delivering it, but both of us have to suffer for not being responsible I would raise the baby her side of the bargain is to give birth...
A man once tried that, he went to court to stop his girlfriend having an abortion, but the courts ruled against him.
Here is a thought, side issue, if you persuaded her to have the child, with the understanding you take it off her and bring it up and you are all geared up for that.
Suppose after birth the maternal instinct cuts in and she wants to keep it and does not want you to take him/her away from her.
What then?
Not trying to make a point here as we are on the same side
bigbr0ther
11-07-2008, 10:24 AM
Originally posted by Sticks
Suppose after birth the maternal instinct cuts in and she wants to keep it and does not want you to take him/her away from her.
What then?
Not trying to make a point here as we are on the same side
Then it's a good thing she had the baby because otherwise that maternal instinct kicking in would result in a lot of guilt.
A lot of people may disagree with me on this, but I am against abortion in most cases. Even when a woman is raped, as disgusting as rape is and as awful as it is to get raped, I am against abortion. Look at it this way: You would not punish a man for his father's crime. The baby did not choose to be conceived by means of rape, so he should not be murdered because of it.
xSammyx
11-07-2008, 10:28 AM
I dont think you can really understand what you would feel unless you are in that situation..
But if everyones careful it shouldnt happen anyway :rolleyes:
bigbr0ther
11-07-2008, 11:45 AM
Originally posted by xSammyx
I dont think you can really understand what you would feel unless you are in that situation..
But if everyones careful it shouldnt happen anyway :rolleyes:
I have been in that situation, but not as the pregnant woman. I was the unborn baby who could have been murdered. And I'm so happy that I'm still alive today.
Originally posted by Sticks
Originally posted by Fom
If a woman that i got pregnant wanted an abortion I would literally beg her not too, I would even tell her I would take the baby off her hands and she would never have to see it. Yes she has to go through the pain of delivering it, but both of us have to suffer for not being responsible I would raise the baby her side of the bargain is to give birth...
A man once tried that, he went to court to stop his girlfriend having an abortion, but the courts ruled against him.
Here is a thought, side issue, if you persuaded her to have the child, with the understanding you take it off her and bring it up and you are all geared up for that.
Suppose after birth the maternal instinct cuts in and she wants to keep it and does not want you to take him/her away from her.
What then?
Not trying to make a point here as we are on the same side
I would stand by that and still help her, the only thing that would annoy me would be if she wanted me to not see the baby. Aslong as I saw the baby and brought it up with the mother then I would be ok, I would be pleased that the mother came to sense and realised she just brought someone into the world and that she wanted to help.
I've already made my feelings quite clear on page one of this thread, so I'm not going to repeat myself all over again!
However - it's very easy to sit in judgement on someone when you haven't been in their position. Expecting someone to bring an unwanted child into the world is cruel both to the woman and to the child.
And don't give me the old 'adoption' argument until you've seen exactly how many children our care system is already struggling to look after. Fact is - most children who are put up for adoption have no chance of being adopted.
And people on here are very harsh on girls who find themselves accidentally pregnant; have none of you ever made a mistake in your life? Should someone be punished for the rest of their lives for a mistake?
It's somewhat hypocritical to say that you are against abortion unless the woman gets raped, by the way.
bigbr0ther
16-07-2008, 01:52 PM
Originally posted by Ruth
I've already made my feelings quite clear on page one of this thread, so I'm not going to repeat myself all over again!
However - it's very easy to sit in judgement on someone when you haven't been in their position. Expecting someone to bring an unwanted child into the world is cruel both to the woman and to the child.
I'm not sitting in judgment of anyone. However, I do wish that mothers considering abortion would be educated as to what they're really doing. I think most of them are well meaning but just ignorant about what abortion really is.
And don't give me the old 'adoption' argument until you've seen exactly how many children our care system is already struggling to look after. Fact is - most children who are put up for adoption have no chance of being adopted.
This actually isn't true at all. There are far more families who want to adopt than there are babies to be adopted. It's very easy to find a great family to adopt your baby. You can even be extremely picky and still have no problem finding one!
And people on here are very harsh on girls who find themselves accidentally pregnant; have none of you ever made a mistake in your life? Should someone be punished for the rest of their lives for a mistake?
I'm not saying that she should be punished for anything. Having sex for pleasure is not a bad thing, but she must be ready to deal with the consequences, including 9 months of pregnancy. It's not a punishment of any sort, just a way to avoid murder and bring a new life into this beautiful world.
It's somewhat hypocritical to say that you are against abortion unless the woman gets raped, by the way.
I never said I was against abortion unless the woman gets raped. I personally feel that a woman who gets raped, as awful and horrible and disgusting as rape is, should have the baby. As terrible as it is to get raped, the baby did not choose how he should be conceived. It is his father who is a rapist, not he. To murder him for his father's crime would be ridiculous.
Emzy-!!
16-07-2008, 01:55 PM
I'm half and half because it's not fair to kill the baby because you don't want it, you should have it and give it up for adoption.
But if the woman got raped then i would agree with abortion totally.
Originally posted by bigbr0ther
I'm not sitting in judgment of anyone. However, I do wish that mothers considering abortion would be educated as to what they're really doing. I think most of them are well meaning but just ignorant about what abortion really is.
No. You think they are ignorant about what you believe abortion is. I'm not saying abortion is an ideal solution - clearly, it isn't. I believe in choice.
This actually isn't true at all. There are far more families who want to adopt than there are babies to be adopted. It's very easy to find a great family to adopt your baby. You can even be extremely picky and still have no problem finding one!
No. This is incorrect.
I'm not saying that she should be punished for anything. Having sex for pleasure is not a bad thing, but she must be ready to deal with the consequences, including 9 months of pregnancy. It's not a punishment of any sort, just a way to avoid murder and bring a new life into this beautiful world.
Hmmm...I'm not sure I would agree that this is a beautiful world to bring a child into at all - but that's a subject for another thread. What I am trying to say is that if a female finds herself pregnant with an unwanted baby, she should not be made to keep the child. I hate it when people use the word 'murder' - it simply inflames the discussion. And forcing someone to have an unwanted baby, would be like punishment, whichever way you want to dress it up.
I never said I was against abortion unless the woman gets raped. I personally feel that a woman who gets raped, as awful and horrible and disgusting as rape is, should have the baby. As terrible as it is to get raped, the baby did not choose how he should be conceived. It is his father who is a rapist, not he. To murder him for his father's crime would be ridiculous.
Well - none of my original post was aimed at you personally. I was saying that to the many other people on here who say that abortion is wrong, unless the woman is raped. I personally think abortion should be a choice available to a pregnant woman if she feels she may want one. However, there is no logic in the 'wrong unless it's rape' argument.
That is all.
I suppose in a way you have to respect the womans wants though... in all fairness the woman is going to have to give birth to the baby. And thats not as easy as we all would like to think lol.
But my opinions are still strong on this point, if you are willing to have casual sex for fun and having sex with people you dont plan to have a long term relationship with then you must accept the consequences. This is the reason people only have sex after marriage, to stop these kinda of things.
Not saying everyone should do that, but they should be clear that sex is not just fun... it is very serious.
Originally posted by Fom
I suppose in a way you have to respect the womans wants though... in all fairness the woman is going to have to give birth to the baby. And thats not as easy as we all would like to think lol.
But my opinions are still strong on this point, if you are willing to have casual sex for fun and having sex with people you dont plan to have a long term relationship with then you must accept the consequences. This is the reason people only have sex after marriage, to stop these kinda of things.
Not saying everyone should do that, but they should be clear that sex is not just fun... it is very serious.
Sex can be just good fun. And plenty of people who are married have abortions as well.
bigbr0ther
17-07-2008, 01:21 PM
I don't really feel sorry for the woman who murders her unborn baby (taking away 75+ years of his life) just so she doesn't have to be pregnant (9 months of her own life).
Originally posted by bigbr0ther
I don't really feel sorry for the woman who murders her unborn baby (taking away 75+ years of his life) just so she doesn't have to be pregnant (9 months of her own life). Having a baby is not just nine months of someone's life though. I don't feel sorry for someone who brings an unwanted child into the world, sentencing that child to either a lifetime of being unwanted to his/her mother, or putting them into our full-to-bursting care system.
Using words like murder inflames an argument. It's often a tactic used to make people who don't agree with you feel guilty, and I think it would be better not used in this conversation, at least if you are trying to be rational.
bigbr0ther
18-07-2008, 03:43 AM
Originally posted by Ruth
Originally posted by bigbr0ther
I don't really feel sorry for the woman who murders her unborn baby (taking away 75+ years of his life) just so she doesn't have to be pregnant (9 months of her own life). Having a baby is not just nine months of someone's life though. I don't feel sorry for someone who brings an unwanted child into the world, sentencing that child to either a lifetime of being unwanted to his/her mother, or putting them into our full-to-bursting care system.
Using words like murder inflames an argument. It's often a tactic used to make people who don't agree with you feel guilty, and I think it would be better not used in this conversation, at least if you are trying to be rational.
The word abortion is a lie in itself. The correct term is murder, and thus I intend to use it. Whether you think abortion is a good thing or not is your opinion, but it is murder, and that is just a fact. Besides, trying to make you feel guilty about anything would likely be a waste of time.
Lauren
18-07-2008, 04:06 AM
Originally posted by bigbr0ther
The word abortion is a lie in itself. The correct term is murder, and thus I intend to use it. Whether you think abortion is a good thing or not is your opinion, but it is murder, and that is just a fact. Besides, trying to make you feel guilty about anything would likely be a waste of time.
I disagree. The whole topic around abortion is whether it IS murder. You can't just say it is, because you feel it is.
For example, is it murder if the being is not capable of rational thought? Where do we draw the line on if things are murder?
I'm with Ruth on the fact that I'd rather see a woman have a choice in abortion, than bring a child in the World who is not wanted, maybe not loved...
bigbr0ther
18-07-2008, 04:14 AM
Originally posted by Lauren
I disagree. The whole topic around abortion is whether it IS murder. You can't just say it is, because you feel it is.
I don't "feel" that it is. Murder means "to kill or slaughter" making abortion murder. Just because the word murder is inconvenient for pro-abortionists doesn't mean it's not accurate. You can have the opinion that abortion is ethical, but it's a fact that it's murder as well.
For example, is it murder if the being is not capable of rational thought? Where do we draw the line on if things are murder?
Of course it is. Is it murder if the being is 2 months old? What about a year? 3 years? Can these beings have "rational thought," whatever you consider that to be?
I'm with Ruth on the fact that I'd rather see a woman have a choice in abortion, than bring a child in the World who is not wanted, maybe not loved...
The baby will always be loved by his adoptive parents if you are unable to support him.
I'm not claiming to be impartial on this matter. In fact, I think my opinion is more valid because I have been through this personally. I could have been murdered before I was born and then I wouldn't be here typing this. It makes me sad to think that I might have never gotten to live just because of some profit-seeking doctor convincing an ignorant patient that I am just a mass of tissue. (I don't believe I'm a mass of tissue personally. I don't look like a mass of tissue when I look in the mirror... hmm.)
Lauren
18-07-2008, 04:30 AM
Originally posted by bigbr0ther
I don't "feel" that it is. Murder means "to kill or slaughter" making abortion murder. Just because the word murder is inconvenient for pro-abortionists doesn't mean it's not accurate. You can have the opinion that abortion is ethical, but it's a fact that it's murder as well.
That's what I mean though... murder doesn't just basically mean 'to kill or slaughter'. So when you step on a plant, you're killing it... so you murdered it? I'm not comparing a foetus with a plant, but merely drawing comparisons in the difficult between "defining" murder.
Furthermore, I'm not "pro-abortion", I am, however, pro-choice. And feel that the choice should not be taken away. The choice also includes the choice NOT to have an abortion.
Sticks
18-07-2008, 06:00 AM
Here is one question to throw in
We always here that it is a woman's right to choose.
Suppose two people have sex, the women gets pregnant.
They may or may not be married
The woman does not want a termination, (To use another term), but the man does not want to be a father.
If women have a right to choose, why not men after the fact, after all a bit of his body went in to create the foetus?
Why should he not be entitled to force the woman to have a termination?
Those advocating "Pro-Choice" should also be supporting a man's right to choose, if they want to be consistant.
Originally posted by Sticks
Here is one question to throw in
We always here that it is a woman's right to choose.
Suppose two people have sex, the women gets pregnant.
They may or may not be married
The woman does not want a termination, (To use another term), but the man does not want to be a father.
If women have a right to choose, why not men after the fact, after all a bit of his body went in to create the foetus?
Why should he not be entitled to force the woman to have a termination?
Those advocating "Pro-Choice" should also be supporting a man's right to choose, if they want to be consistant.
Great point, Sticks. However, I know what some people's argument to it will be, "The man never carries the burden of the physical changes that women have to, as well as endure child birth (thank god for that!)
I think that abortion is all up to choice under certain circumstances. I don't think that rape victims who become impregnated should be forced to have their baby, I think they should be given a choice, seeing as the baby could symbolize a reminder of when she was raped. However, I don't doubt that a baby can bring joy into a person's life.
In the end, I think everyone should be able to do what they'd like to, but I'd advocate they'd not unless they're under dire circumstances.
Sticks
18-07-2008, 08:00 AM
Out of interest is there anyone here would would agree with the proposition that a woman be made to have a termination against her will if the man chose not to be a father, and did not want her to have the baby?
I was just curious how far the pro-choice lobby would go.
Originally posted by bigbr0ther
The word abortion is a lie in itself. The correct term is murder, and thus I intend to use it. Whether you think abortion is a good thing or not is your opinion, but it is murder, and that is just a fact. Besides, trying to make you feel guilty about anything would likely be a waste of time.
No, the correct term is not murder, unless you have suddenly been made president of the world.
And I take exception to your last comment. Not nice at all. As I have refrained from making personal comments about you in my previous posts, I would appreciate the same courtesy from you. Otherwise, you are giving the impression that you are incapable of holding a rational and reasonable discussion.
As for your post further down the page about a child being loved by it's adoptive parents: I'm not sure how many times I have to say this, or indeed what it takes for you to understand it : whatever you say, the truth is that most children put up for adoption stand little or no chance of being adopted.
Clearly you believe that abortion should be illegal. That's your right to believe that, just as it is my right to believe that it shouldn't be. However, I hope you accept that if it was made illegal, there would be several more women and babies killed by illegal abortions. Better for a woman to have an abortion in a safe environment, than a back street illegal abortion clinic.
Lauren
18-07-2008, 04:55 PM
Originally posted by Sticks
Out of interest is there anyone here would would agree with the proposition that a woman be made to have a termination against her will if the man chose not to be a father, and did not want her to have the baby?
I was just curious how far the pro-choice lobby would go.
As a pro-choicer myself - I feel the choice should extend to both parties, however - in disagreement I ultimately feel it is the woman's choice as she would then be primary caregiver.
I can't speak for any others, though.
bigbr0ther
18-07-2008, 08:26 PM
Originally posted by Ruth
Clearly you believe that abortion should be illegal. That's your right to believe that, just as it is my right to believe that it shouldn't be. However, I hope you accept that if it was made illegal, there would be several more women and babies killed by illegal abortions. Better for a woman to have an abortion in a safe environment, than a back street illegal abortion clinic.
Don't put words in my mouth. I have never once said that abortion should be illegal. The only point I have been arguing is that it is unethical.
I've already said that I disagree with your point about most kids not being adopted. There are more families that want kids but can't than there are unwanted babies.
Originally posted by Lauren
Originally posted by Sticks
Out of interest is there anyone here would would agree with the proposition that a woman be made to have a termination against her will if the man chose not to be a father, and did not want her to have the baby?
I was just curious how far the pro-choice lobby would go.
As a pro-choicer myself - I feel the choice should extend to both parties, however - in disagreement I ultimately feel it is the woman's choice as she would then be primary caregiver.
I can't speak for any others, though.
I agree with Lauren on this.
Originally posted by bigbr0ther
Originally posted by Ruth
Clearly you believe that abortion should be illegal. That's your right to believe that, just as it is my right to believe that it shouldn't be. However, I hope you accept that if it was made illegal, there would be several more women and babies killed by illegal abortions. Better for a woman to have an abortion in a safe environment, than a back street illegal abortion clinic.
Don't put words in my mouth. I have never once said that abortion should be illegal. The only point I have been arguing is that it is unethical.
I've already said that I disagree with your point about most kids not being adopted. There are more families that want kids but can't than there are unwanted babies.
Well I apologise if I misunderstood what you wrote. However, seeing as you insisted on referring to it as murder, I therefore assumed that you believed it should be illegal.
Yes, you can disagree with my point about adoption. But what you are saying is incorrect. Surely, sheer logic should tell you that? if you look at the figures in relation to children eligible for adoption, you will see that you are in fact absolutely wrong.
Matt10k
18-07-2008, 10:08 PM
Originally posted by Lauren
I feel the choice should extend to both parties, however - in disagreement I ultimately feel it is the woman's choice
I agree it should be the womans choice. That is basically what you are saying! If they agree, no problem- If they disagree, it's the womans choice, so either way, it's the womans choice! :joker:
Saying that though- couldn't help feeling sad about that case a few years back where the guy wanted kids and was no longer able to have them (cancer I think)-and I think his ex wife was pregnant with his child at the time and when she won the case had an abortion :sad:
bigbr0ther
18-07-2008, 10:28 PM
Originally posted by Ruth
Well I apologise if I misunderstood what you wrote. However, seeing as you insisted on referring to it as murder, I therefore assumed that you believed it should be illegal.
Yes, you can disagree with my point about adoption. But what you are saying is incorrect. Surely, sheer logic should tell you that? if you look at the figures in relation to children eligible for adoption, you will see that you are in fact absolutely wrong.
I was only referring to it as that because it is a fact, even if it's not politically correct to say so.
Yes, you can disagree with my point about adoption. But what you are saying is incorrect. Surely, sheer logic should tell you that? If you look at the figures in relation to couples wanting to adopt, you will see that you are in fact absolutely wrong.
In any case, that is irrelevant to whether murdering an unborn baby is ethical or not.
bigbr0ther
18-07-2008, 10:30 PM
Originally posted by Matt10k
Originally posted by Lauren
I feel the choice should extend to both parties, however - in disagreement I ultimately feel it is the woman's choice
I agree it should be the womans choice. That is basically what you are saying! If they agree, no problem- If they disagree, it's the womans choice, so either way, it's the womans choice! :joker:
Saying that though- couldn't help feeling sad about that case a few years back where the guy wanted kids and was no longer able to have them (cancer I think)-and I think his ex wife was pregnant with his child at the time and when she won the case had an abortion :sad:
What about the baby's choice? You know, the one who they are trying to decide if they should murder or not? Perhaps his opinion should be taken into consideration in all of this.
Matt10k
18-07-2008, 10:43 PM
Originally posted by bigbr0ther
Originally posted by Matt10k
Originally posted by Lauren
I feel the choice should extend to both parties, however - in disagreement I ultimately feel it is the woman's choice
I agree it should be the womans choice. That is basically what you are saying! If they agree, no problem- If they disagree, it's the womans choice, so either way, it's the womans choice! :joker:
Saying that though- couldn't help feeling sad about that case a few years back where the guy wanted kids and was no longer able to have them (cancer I think)-and I think his ex wife was pregnant with his child at the time and when she won the case had an abortion :sad:
What about the baby's choice? You know, the one who they are trying to decide if they should murder or not? Perhaps his opinion should be taken into consideration in all of this.
I am 'iffy' about abortions but below a certain number of weeks, I am willing to accept them- before higher functions develop- ie pre 20 weeks. I think it should be lowered to 15 (because I think this is enough time) and just to make absolutely sure there is no overlap.
It's unfortunate that potential life is destroyed, but at this age (pre 20 weeks), that's what it is- 'potential life'. There are other things that could be considered potential life :whistle:- it just depends where you draw the line.
I draw the line before higher functions can be detected on brain scans- with enough time to make sure there is no overlap.
I think the limit should be dropped as babies are increasingly able to survive with medical intervention outside the womans body ie- you wouldn't kill a new born baby on life support- if babies are able to survive without the mother at 25 weeks- they should not be killed.
I know it's a bit of a long winded viewpoint. That is just my take on it.
Originally posted by bigbr0ther
Originally posted by Ruth
Well I apologise if I misunderstood what you wrote. However, seeing as you insisted on referring to it as murder, I therefore assumed that you believed it should be illegal.
Yes, you can disagree with my point about adoption. But what you are saying is incorrect. Surely, sheer logic should tell you that? if you look at the figures in relation to children eligible for adoption, you will see that you are in fact absolutely wrong.
I was only referring to it as that because it is a fact, even if it's not politically correct to say so.
Yes, you can disagree with my point about adoption. But what you are saying is incorrect. Surely, sheer logic should tell you that? If you look at the figures in relation to couples wanting to adopt, you will see that you are in fact absolutely wrong.
In any case, that is irrelevant to whether murdering an unborn baby is ethical or not.
Oh I see. You are resorting to childish tactics and in fact quoting my own post back to me. Really, if you can't think of your own words, you might as well not waste your time saying anything.
Right - tell me one thing. If there are more people willing and able to adopt than children who are eligible to be adopted, then WHY are there still children eligible to be adopted? Why don't some children ever get adopted? After all, if people are desperate to adopt these children, there should be no children ever waiting to be adopted, other than when they are waiting for the paperwork to go through, no? Yet, unfortunately, there are thousands of children waiting to be adopted. Why is this? Where are the families queueing up to adopt them?
Secondly, and as I have already said - just because you think something does not make it fact. It's mighty arrogant of you to assume that it does. We are all discussing our opinions here, and most of us are adult enough to accept that our opinion is just that, and not a fact cast in stone. Maybe you are not mature enough to accept that? By law, abortion is not murder. Unless someone died and made you prime minister, you can call it what you want, but it doesn't make it a fact. GOT IT?
bigbr0ther
19-07-2008, 11:04 PM
Originally posted by Matt10k
I am 'iffy' about abortions but below a certain number of weeks, I am willing to accept them- before higher functions develop- ie pre 20 weeks. I think it should be lowered to 15 (because I think this is enough time) and just to make absolutely sure there is no overlap.
It's unfortunate that potential life is destroyed, but at this age (pre 20 weeks), that's what it is- 'potential life'. There are other things that could be considered potential life :whistle:- it just depends where you draw the line.
I draw the line before higher functions can be detected on brain scans- with enough time to make sure there is no overlap.
I think the limit should be dropped as babies are increasingly able to survive with medical intervention outside the womans body ie- you wouldn't kill a new born baby on life support- if babies are able to survive without the mother at 25 weeks- they should not be killed.
I know it's a bit of a long winded viewpoint. That is just my take on it.
But it's not potential life. The person may be living inside of the mother but he is still living. He is conscious and has emotions, and they can detect these with technology.
When the device is inserted up the woman's vagina and into the womb, the person begins to panic. His heart rate speeds up and he begins swimming frantically away from the device in an attempt to escape it. In the past it may have been excused as mere ignorance, but today technology allows us to know these things. The person's deliberate and frantic attempts to escape the device, and the clear signs of panic, show that he does indeed want to live.
Here's video proof, just to show that I'm not making this up: http://www.silentscream.org/video1.htm
Matt10k
21-07-2008, 06:05 PM
Originally posted by bigbr0ther
He is conscious and has emotions, and they can detect these with technology.
Actually, the higher functions of the brain do not develop before 25 weeks- hence why abortion limits are around this time.
Originally posted by bigbr0ther
When the device is inserted up the woman's vagina and into the womb, the person begins to panic. His heart rate speeds up and he begins swimming frantically away from the device in an attempt to escape it.
The person's deliberate and frantic attempts to escape the device, and the clear signs of panic, show that he does indeed want to live.
That's insane and doesn't happen! I can't actually believe you'd think this!
Even if that did happen- how the hell would the baby know what was going on? How would it know the device was bad?! Sorry, but it's a load of tripe! :bigsmile:
Originally posted by bigbr0ther
In the past it may have been excused as mere ignorance, but today technology allows us to know these things.
Yes, brain scans allow us to see when a baby is conscious and when it is not. This is why abortion limits are the way they are :thumbs:
Originally posted by bigbr0ther
Here's video proof, just to show that I'm not making this up: http://www.silentscream.org/video1.htm
I watched the first 3 parts of it- an 80’s american tv show, probably made by some right wing, pro-lifers. Poor quality and anything but scientific. It showed nothing and I got bored watching it. Sorry.
Sunny_01
21-07-2008, 06:26 PM
I really think there are some huge issues around education going on here.
Some people have some very out of date ideas about what really happens during a termination. Maybe a little read of the following site would be useful for some:
http://www.thesite.org/sexandrelationships/safersex/unplannedpregnancy/theabortionprocedure
This site will tell you about the methods available and at what stage people can have them.
I am very much pro-choice when it comes to abortion, I think where possible both parties involved should discuss the best thing to do but ultimatley it is the woman's choice as she has to live long term with any decision made.
bigbr0ther
22-07-2008, 05:58 AM
Matt10k: Basically all you did was accuse my claims of being untrue (without any evidence to back it up) then say that you didn't bother looking at my evidence because it was "boring." You can stay in denial all you want if it helps you alleviate the guilt of supporting the murder of very much alive human beings, of course. You have the right to be ignorant. And you are using it.
Matt10k
22-07-2008, 11:25 PM
Originally posted by bigbr0ther
Matt10k: Basically all you did was accuse my claims of being untrue (without any evidence to back it up) then say that you didn't bother looking at my evidence because it was "boring." You can stay in denial all you want if it helps you alleviate the guilt of supporting the murder of very much alive human beings, of course. You have the right to be ignorant. And you are using it.
You were ignorant. You didn't even know what abortion techniques are currently used! And you give me an 80's American show to back up your claims that a 12 week old foetus is miraculously able to detect when something is bad and will 'swim away' from it to get away! :joker:
I also see that you aren't disputing that babies are not conscious before 25 weeks- hence why abortion limits are the way they are.
And I don't feel guilty at all. I assume having an abortion is a difficult decision for any woman and there will certainly be guilt involved- but I never had an abortion or had to make that decision :thumbs: so why the hell should I feel guilty or be in denial for supporting it? Because you call it murder? Well that doesn't make me feel guilty! Before a certain age, a baby just isn't conscious, you can kid yourself that I feel guilty if you like, I’m telling you I don't.
Now like I said before- it depends where you draw the line. I draw the line at when a baby could be considered concious or have higher brain functions. This is post 25 weeks.
I also don't understand what you are pushing? If you want abortion to be illegal- I also believe this would be a bad idea.
Making it illegal, forces it underground- people won't stop having them, they'll get botched ops. Can you imagine?!
Its not just if the baby can feel it or not... its all that the potential for a human is there. I just find it a shame that people are throwing away... the next possible prime minister or the next possible gold medalist. Maybe I just see things in a different light and I can understand it. I just think of it this way... my niece is the most important person to me in the world, and my sister was 18 when she gave birth, a scary age and she could of freaked out and got an abortion, she didnt have a good job, she wasn't doing good.
But you know what, my niece is the best thing that has ever happened to all of us, and it kills me to think that she could not be here right now if my sister got scared.
People just dont realise the potential thats in it... to everyone else this is just a thing in a girl. As if its a tumor or something, its not! Its the building of a real human being. Its not just if they can feel it, its the morals behind it aswell.
Matt10k
22-07-2008, 11:49 PM
Originally posted by Fom
Its not just if the baby can feel it or not... its all that the potential for a human is there. I just find it a shame that people are throwing away... the next possible prime minister or the next possible gold medalist. Maybe I just see things in a different light and I can understand it. I just think of it this way... my niece is the most important person to me in the world, and my sister was 18 when she gave birth, a scary age and she could of freaked out and got an abortion, she didnt have a good job, she was doing good.
But you know what, my niece is the best thing that has ever happened to all of us, and it kills me to think that she could not be here right now if my sister got scared.
People just dont realise the potential thats in it... to everyone else this is just a thing in a girl. As if its a tumor or something, its not! Its the building of a real human being. Its not just if they can feel it, its the morals behind it aswell.
Strange- my sister was also 18 when she gave birth to my niece. I also think it's a shame but we can't control people's lives- some do not have the maturity to have children- it is a shame and I would never tell a girl to have an abortion no matter what, but it is a fact of life. Making it illegal would be a bigger mistake.
And at least before a certain age, it can be shown that a baby is not conscious and has not yet developed emotions or other higher functions.
As for potential life- you probably throw away a few million potential prime ministers every day :thumbs:
:joker::joker::joker::joker:
I went too far again didn't I? :bigsmile:
Stevos
22-07-2008, 11:54 PM
Originally posted by supernoodles!
i dont judge people i just think its wrong,always have always will.I can understand why some women who have been raped and as a rsult become pregnant choose abortion but even then i am still totally against it.I dont know if id raise the baby myself,id consider adoption
Agree, it's best not to judge. However, in most cases I am against abortion. My wife and I fostered a baby whose mum had been raped. However, this brave woman carried the child for 9 months then gave it up for adoption. RESPECT. It wasn't the childs fault.
But then again, I shouldn't comment as men have absolutely no rights as far as this topic is concerned.
Originally posted by Matt10k
Originally posted by Fom
Its not just if the baby can feel it or not... its all that the potential for a human is there. I just find it a shame that people are throwing away... the next possible prime minister or the next possible gold medalist. Maybe I just see things in a different light and I can understand it. I just think of it this way... my niece is the most important person to me in the world, and my sister was 18 when she gave birth, a scary age and she could of freaked out and got an abortion, she didnt have a good job, she was doing good.
But you know what, my niece is the best thing that has ever happened to all of us, and it kills me to think that she could not be here right now if my sister got scared.
People just dont realise the potential thats in it... to everyone else this is just a thing in a girl. As if its a tumor or something, its not! Its the building of a real human being. Its not just if they can feel it, its the morals behind it aswell.
Strange- my sister was also 18 when she gave birth to my niece. I also think it's a shame but we can't control people's lives- some do not have the maturity to have children- it is a shame and I would never tell a girl to have an abortion no matter what, but it is a fact of life. Making it illegal would be a bigger mistake.
And at least before a certain age, it can be shown that a baby is not conscious and has not yet developed emotions or other higher functions.
As for potential life- you probably throw away a few million potential prime ministers every day :thumbs:
:joker::joker::joker::joker:
I went too far again didn't I? :bigsmile:
Good point haha, although they are only half prime ministers lol. Nothing without the womans side :P
bigbr0ther
24-07-2008, 01:12 AM
Originally posted by Matt10k
You were ignorant.
By your standards. :)
You didn't even know what abortion techniques are currently used!
Does it matter if I murder you with a gun vs a knife?
And you give me an 80's American show to back up your claims that a 12 week old foetus is miraculously able to detect when something is bad and will 'swim away' from it to get away! :joker:
Why are you bothering to bring up when/where the video was made? That is not relevant. The video proves that babies are conscious, even before they are born.
By the way, most movies are made in America, if you hadn't noticed.
I also see that you aren't disputing that babies are not conscious before 25 weeks- hence why abortion limits are the way they are.
This is appeal to authority, which is a logical fallacy. Thus, I will dismiss it.
And I don't feel guilty at all. I assume having an abortion is a difficult decision for any woman and there will certainly be guilt involved- but I never had an abortion or had to make that decision :thumbs: so why the hell should I feel guilty or be in denial for supporting it? Because you call it murder? Well that doesn't make me feel guilty! Before a certain age, a baby just isn't conscious, you can kid yourself that I feel guilty if you like, I’m telling you I don't.
I doubt you have the capacity to feel guilt.
Now like I said before- it depends where you draw the line. I draw the line at when a baby could be considered concious or have higher brain functions. This is post 25 weeks.
What makes you believe that? I've provided a reference. You have not.
I also don't understand what you are pushing? If you want abortion to be illegal- I also believe this would be a bad idea.
Making it illegal, forces it underground- people won't stop having them, they'll get botched ops. Can you imagine?!
I never said that.
Matt10k
24-07-2008, 01:01 PM
Originally posted by bigbr0ther
By your standards. :)
Of course, by my standards and those in the medical profession that agree with me, and others on this forum.
Originally posted by bigbr0ther
Why are you bothering to bring up when/where the video was made? That is not relevant. The video proves that babies are conscious, even before they are born.
By the way, most movies are made in America, if you hadn't noticed.
Of course it's relevant. It's out of date- I mentioned that it's american because they have a lot of extreme pro life groups out there that create propoganda videos like that with very little basis in truth. And 'by the way', it's not a movie- it's a documentary- we make plenty of those here too :wink:
Originally posted by bigbr0ther
This is appeal to authority, which is a logical fallacy. Thus, I will dismiss it.
Eh? You trying to sound clever?! :joker: You make no points as to why you'd dismiss it other than one propoganda video from the 80's and this dodgy, pseudo intellectual spiel that means absolutely nothing to me! :rolleyes:
Higher functions do not develop before 25 weeks- there is a plethora of evidence on this subject. This is why abortion limits are the way they are- because babies are not conscious before 25 weeks. How many times do I have to tell you this before it’ll sink in?
Originally posted by bigbr0ther
What makes you believe that? I've provided a reference. You have not.
You call that video a referance? Why not do your own research? There's plenty of it out there. Babies are not concious before 25 weeks. Why do you think they'd set abortion limits the way they have done? Just for the sake of it?!! Come on, use your brain :rolleyes:
Originally posted by bigbr0ther
I never said that.
So what exactly is your point? I've already said, if I was a woman I would never have an abortion. I said making it illegal would be a mistake because it forces it underground and all you can say is: "I have no capacity for guilt" and that this vast body of evidence stating babies are not concious is wrong because your 80's american propoganda video shows otherwise :rolleyes:
Matt10k
24-07-2008, 01:25 PM
bigbr0ther, you should research ‘thalamocortical connections‘, (which begin between 22 and 34 weeks). Before these are developed fully, a baby would not feel pain and would not be conscious.
Here's a source; (since you probably won't do you own research :rolleyes:), it's quite in depth though. The part on consciousness, thalamocortical connections, fetal pain and that this develops after 22 weeks is towards the bottom of page 215 :bigsmile:
On page 216, it also mentions the reflexes you were talking about and says they are most likely spasms caused by development of the spinal cord at around 15 weeks and that these do not indicate pain.
http://books.google.com/books?vid=ISBN0632042877&id=MzZRuSQ5UeEC&pg=PA215&lpg=PA215&ots=cx0KcmuOYk&dq=%22emerging+consensus+among+developmental+neuro biologists+that+the+establishment+%22&num=100&sig=8I9DY9KPpuSPNYvGI3sEV2bmKsA
(you'll have to copy and paste that whole link because it's too big to be a quick link :thumbs:)
Also, if you look back in this argument- you will see, that I would want abortion limits to be set at 15 weeks to gaurantee these connections are not present yet. As it stands, some late abortions could be getting a bit close for comfort.
Sunny_01
25-07-2008, 10:32 PM
I suppose in all of the technical talk we forget about those women who are faced with the hardest decisions of their lives. Very few women/girls will make the decision lightly to end a pregnancy and nor should they be condemned for making a life changing decision for themselves.
I had my eldest daughter when I was 16 and I have to be very honest it was the hardest time of my life trying to decide what was the best thing for "me" I am and always will be happy with the decision I made, now at 37 I have a daughter approaching 21 and I am also a grandmother to an amazing little boy. Yes had a made a different decision I would not have had these wonders in my life BUT it was my decision to make, not the decision of other people. No one has the right to judge people for their own life changing decisions.
geoking66
28-07-2008, 09:15 PM
Abortion should always be available, noöne can tell someone what they can or can't do with her body. I'm saying that all women should get abortions or we should exploit it (Cartman's "I've got aborted fetuses" comes to mind) but banning it only causes more danger.
Originally posted by bigbr0ther
When the device is inserted up the woman's vagina and into the womb, the person begins to panic. His heart rate speeds up and he begins swimming frantically away from the device in an attempt to escape it.
That is so not what happens, But the thought of that actually happening really upset me. Thats just not right at all.
bigbr0ther
06-08-2008, 02:11 AM
Originally posted by Matt10k
Of course, by my standards and those in the medical profession that agree with me, and others on this forum.
This is appeal to respect, a logical fallacy. Good try though.
Of course it's relevant. It's out of date- I mentioned that it's american because they have a lot of extreme pro life groups out there that create propoganda videos like that with very little basis in truth. And 'by the way', it's not a movie- it's a documentary- we make plenty of those here too :wink:
Documentaries are movies. Documentary is a genre, like horror, comedy, or drama.
Eh? You trying to sound clever?! :joker: You make no points as to why you'd dismiss it other than one propoganda video from the 80's and this dodgy, pseudo intellectual spiel that means absolutely nothing to me! :rolleyes:
Higher functions do not develop before 25 weeks- there is a plethora of evidence on this subject. This is why abortion limits are the way they are- because babies are not conscious before 25 weeks. How many times do I have to tell you this before it’ll sink in?
My point was that because it's a logical fallacy it is irrelevant to this debate. You say there is a "plethora of evidence" yet you've shown me none at all. Babies are certainly conscious before 25 weeks. And the "abortion limits" is appeal to authority, again, a logical fallacy.
You call that video a referance? Why not do your own research? There's plenty of it out there. Babies are not concious before 25 weeks. Why do you think they'd set abortion limits the way they have done? Just for the sake of it?!! Come on, use your brain :rolleyes:
Again, appeal to authority. I've had this debate with pro-choice people who at least got me thinking and gave me a bit of a challenge. You, however, are just employing one logical fallacy after another.
So what exactly is your point? I've already said, if I was a woman I would never have an abortion. I said making it illegal would be a mistake because it forces it underground and all you can say is: "I have no capacity for guilt" and that this vast body of evidence stating babies are not concious is wrong because your 80's american propoganda video shows otherwise :rolleyes:
What are you on about? I never said it should be illegal. You're arguing against a point I never even made.
bigbr0ther
06-08-2008, 02:14 AM
Originally posted by Sunny_01
I suppose in all of the technical talk we forget about those women who are faced with the hardest decisions of their lives. Very few women/girls will make the decision lightly to end a pregnancy and nor should they be condemned for making a life changing decision for themselves.
This is very true. I have a lot of respect for teenage women who find themselves with a surprise pregnancy. They need a lot of courage, support, and understanding.
I had my eldest daughter when I was 16 and I have to be very honest it was the hardest time of my life trying to decide what was the best thing for "me" I am and always will be happy with the decision I made, now at 37 I have a daughter approaching 21 and I am also a grandmother to an amazing little boy. Yes had a made a different decision I would not have had these wonders in my life BUT it was my decision to make, not the decision of other people. No one has the right to judge people for their own life changing decisions.
I am very happy for you! I personally feel that you made the right choice.
Matt10k
06-08-2008, 02:14 PM
Bigbrother, I did give you evidence. Look up "thalamocortical connections" :thumbs:
(I even went to the trouble of getting you an indepth link which you seem to have ignored) :rolleyes:
And just continually spouting that the evidence is 'logical fallacy' but not stating why means nothing to me, especially since, it seems you didn't even read it. :rolleyes:
Originally posted by bigbr0ther
This is very true. I have a lot of respect for teenage women who find themselves with a surprise pregnancy. They need a lot of courage, support, and understanding.
You should also respect whatever desicion they choose to make. Not like earlier in the thread where you were basically calling all women who choose to have abortions 'muderers', even those that choose to have them after they were raped. This to me is not respect, it just shows a lack of understanding for what these women have to go through...
pinkmichk
06-08-2008, 06:38 PM
Originally posted by Fom
Its not just if the baby can feel it or not... its all that the potential for a human is there. I just find it a shame that people are throwing away... the next possible prime minister or the next possible gold medalist. Maybe I just see things in a different light and I can understand it. I just think of it this way... my niece is the most important person to me in the world, and my sister was 18 when she gave birth, a scary age and she could of freaked out and got an abortion, she didnt have a good job, she wasn't doing good.
But you know what, my niece is the best thing that has ever happened to all of us, and it kills me to think that she could not be here right now if my sister got scared.
People just dont realise the potential thats in it... to everyone else this is just a thing in a girl. As if its a tumor or something, its not! Its the building of a real human being. Its not just if they can feel it, its the morals behind it aswell.
i totally agree with you i dont agree with abortion at all when i fell pregnant with my daughter i was 20 only 3 months into a relationship and i fell while taking the pill i wasnt exactly in a decent job and at the time prior to getting pregnant i was prepared to be a mum but i knew that i couldnt get rid of my baby (even my doctor said there is always a abortion when i explained my situation :mad: ) but here i am now with a almost 3 and half yr old yes life has changed but i couldnt imagine my life without her and feel regret if i had got rid
i see the point of some saying about what if a girl is raped well there is always adoption and the illness thing but medical practises are so advanced (and keep becoming further advanced) can someone really live with the what if my child i got rid of was the one to defy the odds get that new drug etc
Ninastar
08-08-2008, 04:51 PM
I think that you should only have an abortion if you get raped. If you choose to have sex and something goes wrong and you end up being preggers and you dont want to be its your own fault.
Sticks
09-08-2008, 06:43 AM
Originally posted by KKBL
i think it wrong to and Im agaibst it but in all honesty if i was a teenage girl who got rapped and ended up pregnant i wouldnt even consider keeping the baby!
However this person did (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1043041/At-16-gang-raped-left-pregnant-Now-mother-explains--Why-I-love-rapists-baby.html)
SiaSiaSia
09-08-2008, 08:01 AM
I think that it depends on the situation - If it is just some teenage girl who was stupid enough not to use condoms, then I don't think that's good enough grounds for abortion.
When you have sex, you should be completley aware of the dangers, and If you are so scared of getting pregnant, then you shouldn't have sex at all. In my opinion, if you're not grown up to accept you have a baby then you're not grown up enough to advance into a relationship with sex.
One time, I thought I was pregnant - and being 16, at home and in the middle of my GCSEs I was very worried, but I knew that it was my responsibility and that I can not stop a baby's life just because a condom broke, and I should have been aware of the dangers. It turned out that I wasn't pregnant in the end, and that the symptoms were down to stress and weight gain.
I was pleased, of course, as I didn't feel I was old enough to raise a baby - but I still would not have aborted it. I would have put it up for adoption, so another family can benefit from my mistake.
The only acception I could make is through Rape - if a girl is raped then it is not her fault she is having a baby. But does that mean a baby is still denied of life? I don't know, to be honest. In some religions they argue that the baby does not have a soul until the 15th/22nd week [can't remember which], and that it is acceptable to have an abortion when the baby does not have a soul - however, i believe it is still a life inside of you, and at the end of the day, the person who was raped would have to come to the decision and it should not be influenced by anyone else.
If there was a danger my baby would have downs syndrome, I would not abort it. A life is still a life, and life is precious. Just because some one isn't going to be born the way we are doesn't mean we should stop their life.
That's my opinion anyway - I'm sorry if you don't agree with it, but that is what I think.
x
After reading that story that Sticks posted I saw a different side to the rape story... yeh its great that some people keep the baby. But I feel sorry for the kid, If i found out i was conceived in a rape... i wouldn't know how to react, that my dad was a evil cold hearted rapist. Its enough to totally freak out somebody.
KawaiiSakura1
10-08-2008, 01:56 AM
if i got pregnant and and my baby was going to have down syndrome then yes its unfair on the kid cos it not going to have a good life
Sticks
10-08-2008, 06:36 AM
Originally posted by KawaiiSakura1
if i got pregnant and and my baby was going to have down syndrome then yes its unfair on the kid cos it not going to have a good life
My niece who has Downs (http://www.bbc.co.uk/humber/content/articles/2008/07/17/charlotte_diary_feature.shtml) :nono:
KawaiiSakura1
10-08-2008, 08:53 AM
Originally posted by Sticks
Originally posted by KawaiiSakura1
if i got pregnant and and my baby was going to have down syndrome then yes its unfair on the kid cos it not going to have a good life
My niece who has Downs (http://www.bbc.co.uk/humber/content/articles/2008/07/17/charlotte_diary_feature.shtml) :nono: It all depends on how dissabled the kid would be,if the baby was born before you found out then you would have to make sure he/she had as much love and help as possible.Ask your neice's mum and dad i think they would be the first to tell you it's not easy.Good on them for coping but i don't think i could.
vBulletin® v3.8.11, Copyright ©2000-2025, vBulletin Solutions Inc.