Woman in prison over teddy bear

[Sunny_01]

A friend of mine suggested that this would be a good topic to debate :xyxwave:

British teacher Gillian Gibbons has appeared before a Sudanese court charged with insulting religion and inciting hatred by naming a teddy bear Mohammed. She is facing 40 lashes as a punishment!

Full Story (http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30200-1294891,00.html)

What does everyone think of this?

[supernoodles!]

i keep hearing about this,what is 40 lashes?

[Sunny_01]

it is where she will be brutually whipped 40 times

[supernoodles!]

:shocked:omg!
i cant beleive thats legal

[Mrluvaluva]

I think this is absolutely ridiculous. This just shows you how backward some countries are in their thinking. Why should she get 40 lashes?

[supernoodles!]

isnt one of the boys in the class going to get her out of it though.I thought it was Abraham they called the teddy...
anyhow,hopefully this boy who has said they named the teddy after him will get her off

[Mrluvaluva]

The teddy was called Mohammed after one of the children in the class of the same name. The boy named the teddy after himself.

[GiRTh]

I can see why Muslims are outraged TBH. If someone named a teddy Jesus, I'm sure there'd be similar outrage.

[~Kizwiz~]

Originally posted by GiRTh
I can see why Muslims are outraged TBH. If someone named a teddy Jesus, I'm sure there'd be similar outrage.

But would there? And would the teacher be sent to prison?? I highly doubt it. She would just get a slap on the wrist by the principle IMO

[GiRTh]

Originally posted by ~kizwiz~
Originally posted by GiRTh
I can see why Muslims are outraged TBH. If someone named a teddy Jesus, I'm sure there'd be similar outrage.

But would there? And would the teacher be sent to prison?? I highly doubt it. She would just get a slap on the wrist by the principle IMO In this country maybe but the religious right in America may have taken things a step further.

[Sarah.]

It's the most pathetic thing I have EVER heard.

[Sticks]

The verdict is in - GUILTY (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/7119399.stm)

She has been sentenced to 15 days in jail and then immediate deportation, I am surprised that they have been so lenient given the clamour for her death. I expected a more exemplary punishment to help keep order.

In this country BTW we still have a law on Blasphemy and it has been used (http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/july/11/newsid_2499000/2499721.stm)

With all that goes on, you have to give them that these countries take morality seriously. Religion is precious to people and by insulting it you trample upon them.

Before anyone bleats, this is the law over there. She broke it. We have absolutely no right whatsoever to criticise another sovereign state over their laws. This is just another case of a Brit bringing shame on us all by breaking the law in a foreign country.

She is a criminal not a heroine. :mad:

[GiRTh]

^^Couldn't have put it better^^

[Stu]

Originally posted by Sticks
This is just another case of a Brit bringing shame on us all by breaking the law in a foreign country.

And im sure it will earn the country in question and its legal system plenty of respect abroad :rolleyes:.



Sudan's top clerics had called for the full measure of the law to be used against Mrs Gibbons and labelled her actions part of a Western plot against Islam.


A bit far , dont you think?

[Sticks]

Originally posted by Stu
And Im sure it will earn the country in question and its legal system plenty of respect abroad :rolleyes:.


Absolutely it will, although if anything this sentence will draw more condemnation from the Islamic world over it's leniency .

It shows that they won't take the kind of stuff we routinely put up with over here, like junkies murdering old age pensioners for a £5 note for their next fix.

I remember when the TV show Spitting Image portrayed Christ as a hippy. The churches complained, but did the TV company care about the beliefs they were trampling on - not a bit of it.

Then the Imams went on how they were treating Jesus so terribly, as in Islam he is also considered a prophet, so Spitting image pulled the puppet and it was never used again.

[Stu]

Originally posted by Sticks
Originally posted by Stu
And Im sure it will earn the country in question and its legal system plenty of respect abroad :rolleyes:.


I remember when the TV show Spitting Image portrayed Christ as a hippy. The churches complained, but did the TV company care about the beliefs they were trampling on - not a bit of it.

And so they should not. Its a free world and they are free to do it. Religion should not be the law like it is in some of these countries.

[Retroman]

I think they forget the fact that it's just a name...
And a much more common name than "Jesus"

Though even if it was called Jesus, people shouldn't be stopped from liking/using the name just because of someone previously called it.

I suppose parents should be sentenced to 40 lashes for naming their child Mohammed? Or Moses? or Jesus? or Mary? Or John? Or Peter? or Matthew? Or Luke? or Mark?

Because someone out there might remember a religious figure from the past, with the same name, and remember how hard that person had it...then take offense that you liked the name? Logic at its finest.

If anything, shouldn't naming your child/teddy be a sign of respect? rather than an insult?

And why should only "that" Mohammed be allowed that name as a tribute to his honour...when plenty of other Mohammed's probably existed at the same time? His name doesn't define who he is, so it shouldn't be restricted.

And arresting people over teddies earns respect, only because you're scaring everyone into thinking they'll be severely punished for just about anything that they do, no matter how miniscule/meaningless. Eg. Naming a teddy.

I would think that'd do a country more harm than good? if people look upon it as a prison cell lead by unusually power mad people who think that allowing only one person to be addressed as Mohammed benefits anything/anyone in anyway what so ever.

P.S I agree Stu, people should be free to express public negative opinions on religion, without everyone labelling them blasphemous etc.

[Bells]

That's shocking... it really does go to show how different certain countries in the world are. The main thing I find strange is that Mohammed is actually a really common boys' name, therefore calling a teddy bear - i.e., not exactly something degrading - the same name shouldn't cause an effect like this. Not to mention that it was named after a boy in the class, which makes the outcome a little more absurd.

Furthermore, Gillian Gibbons probably didn't think twice that what she did would result in this - that too, quite a harsh punishment in my opinion.

[Sticks]

To name a human child after a figure from history can be seen as granting honour to that figure, but a lot of people see that to associate that name with a lower order animal, is a gross insult. It is like calling that person that kind of animal. As some animals are considered unclean by certain religions, the insult is increased.

When someone is caught hurling insults, they are punished, why should insulting a religious figure, that many people hold so dearly not be considered the same?

To give a non-religious example where this is the law, in France it is against the law to name a pig Napoleon.

BTW, does the prosecution have the right to appeal against acquittals of the other charges and against the leniency of the sentence? If they do, they may just do so to satisfy the hard liners.

[spacebandit]

Just another religion usurped as an excuse for violence and murder and, more importantly...control, the same as christianity has been.

[Matt]

This is absolutely despicable.

It is an innocent mistake and she clearly intended no harm. It was not her that suggested the name Mohammed anyway.

The world has gone stark raving bonkers.

[Lauren]

We're applying our norms and values to this case.
If this happened in the UK, then yes - the punishment is severe. However, other countries shouldn't and don't follow our rule of thumb and she was just getting the sentence that anyone would get in that country, under those circumstances.

[Mrluvaluva]

Just because rules are in place, it doesn't necessarily mean they are right.

[Dr43%er]

But should you break then because you believe them not to be right? If we all decided to only follow the laws we liked it would be anarchy.

Now I don't believe that she set out to cause offence, but she has shown extreme naivety. Did she not remember the offence caused around the world when Mohamed was depicted in cartoon form in Denmark?

We in this country may find the punishment harsh. But You have to follow the laws of the land.

I noted that the overriding view in the emigrants thread was that if they come here they should obey our laws and customs. How many of you who think that all so think she should not be punished? Well it works both ways. Not just for people coming here. Or is it ok for her to go to another country and flout the laws and customs as she is English?

[bananarama]

Originally posted by GiRTh
I can see why Muslims are outraged TBH. If someone named a teddy Jesus, I'm sure there'd be similar outrage.

Why!!!! A teddy is something that is loved. Do not the religious love Jesus......

[Mrluvaluva]

Originally posted by Dr43%er
But should you break then because you believe them not to be right? If we all decided to only follow the laws we liked it would be anarchy.


I never said it is right to break them. I just mentioned that all laws are not necessarily correct.


I noted that the overriding view in the emigrants thread was that if they come here they should obey our laws and customs. How many of you who think that all so think she should not be punished?

Ok. So she has broken the law and should be punished. Do you think 40 lashes is a fair punishment to dish out to people? I know she has to serve 15 days in jail, but 40 lashes was a real possibility. Don't you find that a bit barbaric?

[bananarama]

This is just another example of the stupidity of some religious beliefs from the dark ages. Nothing to do with culture more to do with national leadership inasanity.

Religions and cultures of that nature deserve to be insulted. Never supported. Never tolorated.......

Beats me why Westeners stick there noses into countries run by control freak extreme religious addicted idiots.....Teachers like her should stay out. Just as well she is being deported. Hope it teaches others a lesson to stay well away from such societeies.....Oil and water does not mix. When will people learn......

[Sunny_01]

I cant stomach the thought that anyone would be punished in such a cruel way (lashed) but it is their way.

This teacher is obviously an intelligent woman yet very stupidly agreed to let her class call the bear Mohammed. I am a firm believer in respecting the laws of the country you are in and living by their values even when I think they are not particularly wise.

[Mrluvaluva]

Originally posted by Sunny_01
I cant stomach the thought that anyone would be punished in such a cruel way (lashed) but it is their way.




Surely that is like saying "I cant stomach the thought that anyone would be punished in such a cruel way (being doused in boiling water and having your toenails and fingernails fully removed) but it is their way."

It doesn't make it right.

[Sunny_01]

Not saying it is right at all Baz, but in their culture it is seen as acceptable. I think it is cruel and unnecessary but have no control over how they decide their punishments.

[bananarama]

Originally posted by Mrluvaluva
Originally posted by Sunny_01
I cant stomach the thought that anyone would be punished in such a cruel way (lashed) but it is their way.




Surely that is like saying "I cant stomach the thought that anyone would be punished in such a cruel way (being doused in boiling water and having your toenails and fingernails fully removed) but it is their way."

It doesn't make it right.


Exactly. Just read rent a mob crowds are now calling for her to be executed. National insanity that does not deserved to be regarded as a culture.

[Retroman]

I think it all comes down to how apparent the law was...
And how much they do to make sure foreigners entering their country know all of these laws.

As I think if she honestly knew beforehand, she wouldn't have named it. Despite how silly some may think the law is, she could have been given the opportunity to avoid it.

And you can't blame people for not knowing the laws of a country inside and out, if that information isn't brought to your attention.

It's not like it occurs to everyone to delve deep into the internet/library archives to find full on records of all the laws in existence for the country they're visiting, then take the time to read them all, then commit them to memory.

Otherwise holidays would be more of a chore, than some quality time.

[Mrluvaluva]

Originally posted by Sunny_01
Not saying it is right at all Baz, but in their culture it is seen as acceptable. I think it is cruel and unnecessary but have no control over how they decide their punishments.

The point I am making is that it may be "their way of doing things", but it isn't necessarily the correct and humane way IMO.

[Sunny_01]

No one here is disagreeing with you Baz!

I think Retroman has made a wonderful post just above asking the questions about how would you know that law etc..

[Sunny_01]

More news about Sudanese taking to streets demanding death penalty

Here (http://news.aol.co.uk/teddy-row-protestors-demand-death/article/20071128232009990010)

They are going from the cruel to the ridiculous. Now it is shame on the whole UK because a group of kids wanted to call the bear Mohammed!

[Mrluvaluva]

Doesn't it just make you glad that you are not living in a country like that!

[Sticks]

I am wondering if she will be "conveniently" assassinated by a "lone" individual who will be gunned down immediately, to secretly appease the hard-liners. (I believe they did that to a ex pm of the Philippines who was returning).

With the power the hard-liners have to mobilise crowds, I can not see how the Sudanese Government could avoid it.

[Sticks]

Not that I would advocate such action, but you can not ignore the politics of the area.

[Sunny_01]

Originally posted by Mrluvaluva
Doesn't it just make you glad that you are not living in a country like that!

Sure does Baz

I was thinking similar Sticks, wondering how long it would be before she was conveniently killed in prison! I still struggle with the concept that all of this is over the naming of a bear :sad:

[Mrluvaluva]

It's all been blown out of proprtion if you ask me.

[Sticks]

Originally posted by Mrluvaluva
It's all been blown out of proprtion if you ask me.

Not if you are a Muslim

To a large number of Muslims this was deeply deeply offensive to them as their Holy prophet was grossly insulted by comparing it to an unclean animal. For some, this is so offensive that for them the only punishment should be death.

Hence the reaction in Khartoum today

[GiRTh]

Originally posted by Mrluvaluva
It's all been blown out of proprtion if you ask me. I dont think it has. She broke the law she must face the consequences. Religion is a hot topic all over the world so she should have known better.

[Wasted]

Why exactly is calling the teddy "Mohammed" offensive? Is it the name of a God or something? Anyway, I personally think it's pretty stupid and pathetic.

[Red Moon]

Teddy bear teacher moved to secret location as Islamic fanatics demand her executionA British teacher jailed in Sudan for insulting Islam by allowing her class to name a teddy bear Mohammed was tonight moved to a secret location for her own safety.

The dramatic move was made after thousands of weapon-wielding protesters gathered outside the presidential palace in Khartoum to demand a harsher sentence.

Mother-of-two Gillian Gibbons was jailed yesterday for 15 days and escaped a public flogging.

The perceived leniency incensed Sudan's hard-line Muslim clerics - described as "hot heads" by one Sudanese official today.

Massing in central Martyrs Square for an hour, the hordes burned pictures of Mrs Gibbons and chanted: "Shame, shame on the UK," and "No tolerance: Execution," and "kill her, kill her by firing squad".

Riot police kept the mob, who had been ferried in on pick-up trucks after Friday prayers, from the presidential palace.

Dreadlocked protester Yassin Mubarak, swathed in green and carrying a sword, said: "It is a premeditated action and this unbeliever thinks that she can fool us?

"What she did requires her life to be taken."

He added: "The march today is meant to send a message that whoever plays with our religion and faith will bear the consequences." Most of the crowd did not believe Mrs Gibbons' claim that she meant no offence to Islam.

During Friday sermons, the Muslim cleric at Khartoum's main Martyrs Mosque denounced Gibbons, saying she intentionally insulted Islam.

"Imprisoning this lady does not satisfy the thirst of Muslims in Sudan," said the cleric, Abdul-Jalil Nazeer al-Karouri, a well known hard-liner.

Addressing worshippers, he added: "But we welcome imprisonment and expulsion.

"This is an arrogant woman who came to our country, cashing her salary in dollars, teaching our children hatred of our Prophet Muhammad."

Mrs Gibbons, who allowed her class of seven-year-olds to name a teddy bear Mohammed, was moved from the Omdurman women's prison near Khartoum, said her chief lawyer Kamal al-Gizouli shortly after visiting her to discuss the verdict.

He said: "They moved this lady from the prison department to put her in other hands and in other places to cover her and wait until she completes her imprisonment period."

Adding that she was in good health, he said: "They want by hook or by crook to complete these nine days without any difficulties which would have an impact on their foreign relationship."

Several hundred protesters converged at the school where Mrs Gibbons taught, Unity High School.

They chanted slogans outside the building, which is closed and under heavy security, then marched toward the nearby British embassy where they were stopped by security forces two blocks from the embassy.

One of Mrs Gibbons' lawyers said the protest could not have happened without government consent.

Mrs Gibbons, 54, of Aigburth, Liverpool, is nine days away from being deported to the UK.

Today, Dr Khalid al-Mubarak, of the Sudanese embassy in London, blamed the demonstrations on "hot heads" from "hard-line" mosques.

He said: "There are many mosques and different groups congregating in different mosques.

"After prayer, people in particular mosques, not the mainstream, were the ones shouting the slogans to this effect."

He added: "If a lesson can be learned, it's that anybody going abroad should learn about the culture and orientation before taking any job."

Mrs Gibbons' family and friends were unavailable for comment today.

There was no answer at the homes of her son John, 25, and ex-husband Peter.

But it emerged her daughter Jessica Gibbons, 27, a primary school teacher, had posted a touching message to her on the social networking website MySpace.

She wrote: "I love you mum xxxxxx".

The message was posted nearly two days ago when Mrs Gibbons' fate had not been decided.
Source: Daily Mail (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=498689&in_page_id=1811&ct=5)

[dupin]

Originally posted by Wasted
Why exactly is calling the teddy "Mohammed" offensive? Is it the name of a God or something? Anyway, I personally think it's pretty stupid and pathetic.

Mohammed is the name of the Final Prophet, according to Islam. I think it's fair to say that he's kind of the Muslim equiviliant to Jesus.

It may sound ridiculous, but religion, and respect towards religion is much more sacred in other parts of the world than here - whilst calling a child Mohammed could be respect, a teddy bear is a lesser being, and naming it after Mohammed is almost creating a comparison.

It's disrespectful and maybe not warrant of such punishments by any of your standards, but you have to remember that laws are different in Sudan etc. As far as my understanding goes, she was living there at the time, so I think she should have been aware of some of the rules of respect in Muslim countries before calling it home ;; I know I would have done, in order to not end myself up in a situation which she is in now...

[Wasted]

Originally posted by dupin
Originally posted by Wasted
Why exactly is calling the teddy "Mohammed" offensive? Is it the name of a God or something? Anyway, I personally think it's pretty stupid and pathetic.

Mohammed is the name of the Final Prophet, according to Islam. I think it's fair to say that he's kind of the Muslim equiviliant to Jesus.

It may sound ridiculous, but religion, and respect towards religion is much more sacred in other parts of the world than here - whilst calling a child Mohammed could be respect, a teddy bear is a lesser being, and naming it after Mohammed is almost creating a comparison.

It's disrespectful and maybe not warrant of such punishments by any of your standards, but you have to remember that laws are different in Sudan etc. As far as my understanding goes, she was living there at the time, so I think she should have been aware of some of the rules of respect in Muslim countries before calling it home ;; I know I would have done, in order to not end myself up in a situation which she is in now...

Thanks for the explanation. It is ridiculous to me, I really can't imagine how people could take it so seriously. But you're right, if it's the law she should've known a bit more about the law and culture about the country. It's a sad situation, I hope she doesn't get executed over it, it's extremely drastic imo, and I still think it's stupid.

[Stu]

Whatever happened to that one common law in virtually all religions? The golden rule?




"And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise." Luke 6:31

"...thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.", Leviticus 19:18

"None of you [truly] believes until he wishes for his brother what he wishes for himself." Number 13 of Imam "Al-Nawawi's Forty Hadiths."



That third one exists in Islam by the way. Deny or debate that. Hypocrites. Violent , fear mongering hypocrites. A previous post hit the nail on the head. Its all about control.

[~Kizwiz~]

I can see how people can say its an over reaction but to be fair, every country has their own rules and laws and one must abide by their law. Now maybe the teacher didnt know that calling this teddy Mohammed was an offense but we cant judge the country for they're actions and punishments.

She wasnt kidnapped or taken without a reason. She broke a law and offended many people in that country. 15 days was a light sentence she could have got 6 months or 40 lashings.

I hope she gets back to the UK safely but I have a nagging feeling after reading that protesters are baying for her life that she wont reach us at all

[Stu]

I cant believe how many of us are saying ''Well thats their law''. Are people not going to question the law? No wonder the law walks all over them in such places.

[~Kizwiz~]

I dont agree that its right but who are we to question rules of other nations?

Its like the death penalty in parts of the US..... I dont think anyones life should be justice for a crime but yet it still is legal in parts of the USA.

Each country has their own rules, we as common people cant change things. I believe that the Muslim Labour peer Lord Ahmed is going to Suddan to push for her release and I hope he succeeds.

[Billy]

There were Muims on GTMV this morning and even they were saying was pathetic she got in trouble

[XxShortyxX]

I can't believe this, how pathetic. Poor women.

[Stu]

Originally posted by ~kizwiz~
I dont agree that its right but who are we to question rules of other nations?

Of course we can question the rules of other nations. And the peoples of the nation must also do so.

Remember World War II? Would you rather nobody had intervened in Hitlers plans?

[Riz]

i am muslim and i just feel thats its ridiculous and pathetic.

[~Kizwiz~]

Originally posted by Stu

Of course we can question the rules of other nations. And the peoples of the nation must also do so.

Remember World War II? Would you rather nobody had intervened in Hitlers plans?

Of course not..... I dont think that she should be there at all, its shocking that she got 15 days for this, and the prospect of 40 lashes was truly heinous. But what can we do? Its the people in power that should be shouting and screaming. There is nothing, apart from pressing our MP to force the government to intervene, that was as British public can do.

[Stu]

Originally posted by ~kizwiz~
Originally posted by Stu

Of course we can question the rules of other nations. And the peoples of the nation must also do so.

Remember World War II? Would you rather nobody had intervened in Hitlers plans?

Of course not..... I dont think that she should be there at all, its shocking that she got 15 days for this, and the prospect of 40 lashes was truly heinous. But what can we do? Its the people in power that should be shouting and screaming. There is nothing, apart from pressing our MP to force the government to intervene, that was as British public can do.
I see your point about us being able to do little about this case in particular , but the point I was trying to illustrate is that people should not just lie face down and wait for the law to walk all over their backs. Law should be challenged as its pretty much the only way it can gradually be improved. Religion should not be the law. Its supposed to be a choice. And like I said , its all also trampling on the golden rule of all religions.

Screw honor and law , some of these people just reap the benefits of being able to act in a violent manner. Hypocritical sadists.

[Mrluvaluva]

Originally posted by Sticks
Originally posted by Mrluvaluva
It's all been blown out of proprtion if you ask me.

Not if you are a Muslim

To a large number of Muslims this was deeply deeply offensive to them as their Holy prophet was grossly insulted by comparing it to an unclean animal. For some, this is so offensive that for them the only punishment should be death.

Hence the reaction in Khartoum today

And you agree with that do you? A person should lose their life for naming a teddy bear Mohammed?

[Mrluvaluva]

Originally posted by GiRTh
I dont think it has. She broke the law she must face the consequences. Religion is a hot topic all over the world so she should have known better.

OK. I haven't disputed her jail sentence. But 40 lashes as a considered option in my eyes is just plain wrong. And as for calling for her death, well that is just plain ridiculous.

[Tanser_Man]

Don't get me wrong, I’m not generalising and jumping to assumptions but some of these situations have been laughable.

First of all a cartoon which was a joke, it may have been right or wrong but protesters call for him to be executed, hanging effigies of his body and basically a tragic overreaction, leaving a man fearing for his safety. Secondly this situation where a teacher, trying to do right for these children by passing on her knowledge for there advantage, forgetting all right she is doing for the community, only because she called a cuddly toy Muhammad (which I must add was a decision by the pupils, not hers). Now she deserves to die and be imprisoned?

Isn’t the Islam faith supposed to strong and peaceful?!

There’s being passionate in what you believe and then there’s being barbaric and not caring what you believe. I can’t help but think, if the tables were turned and a Muslim lady called a teddy ‘Moses’, would we react and call for the lady to be treated so appallingly? It goes without saying that any suggestion like that would and should be laughed at because it is irrelevant what name she uses… whether it’s Tom, Dick or Harry!

It’s just another excuse for extremists for promote there hate and brainwash yet more innocent victims.

It isn’t about rules and regulations; it’s about hate, and if these people concentrated on there own problems more, maybe they could focus there attentions on more important things in there country such as the murder and rape of 200-400,000 men, women and children within its Darfur province?

[dupin]

Originally posted by Tanser_Man
Don't get me wrong, I’m not generalising and jumping to assumptions but some of these situations have been laughable.

First of all a cartoon which was a joke, it may have been right or wrong but protesters call for him to be executed, hanging effigies of his body and basically a tragic overreaction, leaving a man fearing for his safety.


Actually, it's a huge rule of Islam that you CANNOT draw Mohammed or Allah, as they don't have an image, as such. To do so, especially in the way it was done, is incredibly disrespectful to the Islam faith. I don't think it was an overreaction as such, because you have to remember that for devout Muslims, Islam is their life, it's more important than anything else.

[Tanser_Man]

Originally posted by dupin
Originally posted by Tanser_Man
Don't get me wrong, I’m not generalising and jumping to assumptions but some of these situations have been laughable.

First of all a cartoon which was a joke, it may have been right or wrong but protesters call for him to be executed, hanging effigies of his body and basically a tragic overreaction, leaving a man fearing for his safety.


Actually, it's a huge rule of Islam that you CANNOT draw Mohammed or Allah, as they don't have an image, as such. To do so, especially in the way it was done, is incredibly disrespectful to the Islam faith. I don't think it was an overreaction as such, because you have to remember that for devout Muslims, Islam is their life, it's more important than anything else.

So you seriously think a drawing of somebody, who in fairness could be as fictitious as Santa Clause, justifies thousands of these devout Muslims burning effigies, chanting such things as death to the west with mass protests using guns and swords in response to something like that?

If any of that is justifiable because a religion says so then these people need to wake up and smell the stench they are creating. Religion is supposed to promote peace; unity and strength not excuses so hate filled idiots can wage endless tirades on innocent people.

[dupin]

Originally posted by Tanser_Man
Originally posted by dupin
Originally posted by Tanser_Man
Don't get me wrong, I’m not generalising and jumping to assumptions but some of these situations have been laughable.

First of all a cartoon which was a joke, it may have been right or wrong but protesters call for him to be executed, hanging effigies of his body and basically a tragic overreaction, leaving a man fearing for his safety.


Actually, it's a huge rule of Islam that you CANNOT draw Mohammed or Allah, as they don't have an image, as such. To do so, especially in the way it was done, is incredibly disrespectful to the Islam faith. I don't think it was an overreaction as such, because you have to remember that for devout Muslims, Islam is their life, it's more important than anything else.

So you seriously think a drawing of somebody, who in fairness could be as fictitious as Santa Clause, justifies thousands of these devout Muslims burning effigies, chanting such things as death to the west with mass protests using guns and swords in response to something like that?

If any of that is justifiable because a religion says so then these people need to wake up and smell the stench they are creating. Religion is supposed to promote peace; unity and strength not excuses so hate filled idiots can wage endless tirades on innocent people.

I agree, the rules are odd, but still, they are rules, however stupid you may think they are. And stuff like this is important to Muslims, so for someone to draw that is very disrespectful, and the artist must have known that.

[Stu]

Originally posted by dupin
Originally posted by Tanser_Man
Originally posted by dupin
Originally posted by Tanser_Man
Don't get me wrong, I’m not generalising and jumping to assumptions but some of these situations have been laughable.

First of all a cartoon which was a joke, it may have been right or wrong but protesters call for him to be executed, hanging effigies of his body and basically a tragic overreaction, leaving a man fearing for his safety.


Actually, it's a huge rule of Islam that you CANNOT draw Mohammed or Allah, as they don't have an image, as such. To do so, especially in the way it was done, is incredibly disrespectful to the Islam faith. I don't think it was an overreaction as such, because you have to remember that for devout Muslims, Islam is their life, it's more important than anything else.

So you seriously think a drawing of somebody, who in fairness could be as fictitious as Santa Clause, justifies thousands of these devout Muslims burning effigies, chanting such things as death to the west with mass protests using guns and swords in response to something like that?

If any of that is justifiable because a religion says so then these people need to wake up and smell the stench they are creating. Religion is supposed to promote peace; unity and strength not excuses so hate filled idiots can wage endless tirades on innocent people.

I agree, the rules are odd, but still, they are rules, however stupid you may think they are. And stuff like this is important to Muslims, so for someone to draw that is very disrespectful, and the artist must have known that.
Its absoloutely not. Most Muslims are not extremists. Ive met many Muslims who think everything like this is a disgrace.

Speaking of the whole denouncing of materialism...is their an exception for the home made masterpieces that make their way to Al-Jazeera?

[dupin]

Originally posted by Stu
Originally posted by dupin
Originally posted by Tanser_Man
Originally posted by dupin
Originally posted by Tanser_Man
Don't get me wrong, I’m not generalising and jumping to assumptions but some of these situations have been laughable.

First of all a cartoon which was a joke, it may have been right or wrong but protesters call for him to be executed, hanging effigies of his body and basically a tragic overreaction, leaving a man fearing for his safety.


Actually, it's a huge rule of Islam that you CANNOT draw Mohammed or Allah, as they don't have an image, as such. To do so, especially in the way it was done, is incredibly disrespectful to the Islam faith. I don't think it was an overreaction as such, because you have to remember that for devout Muslims, Islam is their life, it's more important than anything else.

So you seriously think a drawing of somebody, who in fairness could be as fictitious as Santa Clause, justifies thousands of these devout Muslims burning effigies, chanting such things as death to the west with mass protests using guns and swords in response to something like that?

If any of that is justifiable because a religion says so then these people need to wake up and smell the stench they are creating. Religion is supposed to promote peace; unity and strength not excuses so hate filled idiots can wage endless tirades on innocent people.

I agree, the rules are odd, but still, they are rules, however stupid you may think they are. And stuff like this is important to Muslims, so for someone to draw that is very disrespectful, and the artist must have known that.
Its absoloutely not. Most Muslims are not extremists. Ive met many Muslims who think everything like this is a disgrace.

Speaking of the whole denouncing of materialism...is their an exception for the home made masterpieces that make their way to Al-Jazeera?

I think Islam in Muslim countries is very different in terms of that Muslims in Britain are in a Christian country.

[Stu]

Originally posted by dupin
Originally posted by Stu
Originally posted by dupin
Originally posted by Tanser_Man
Originally posted by dupin
Originally posted by Tanser_Man
Don't get me wrong, I’m not generalising and jumping to assumptions but some of these situations have been laughable.

First of all a cartoon which was a joke, it may have been right or wrong but protesters call for him to be executed, hanging effigies of his body and basically a tragic overreaction, leaving a man fearing for his safety.


Actually, it's a huge rule of Islam that you CANNOT draw Mohammed or Allah, as they don't have an image, as such. To do so, especially in the way it was done, is incredibly disrespectful to the Islam faith. I don't think it was an overreaction as such, because you have to remember that for devout Muslims, Islam is their life, it's more important than anything else.

So you seriously think a drawing of somebody, who in fairness could be as fictitious as Santa Clause, justifies thousands of these devout Muslims burning effigies, chanting such things as death to the west with mass protests using guns and swords in response to something like that?

If any of that is justifiable because a religion says so then these people need to wake up and smell the stench they are creating. Religion is supposed to promote peace; unity and strength not excuses so hate filled idiots can wage endless tirades on innocent people.

I agree, the rules are odd, but still, they are rules, however stupid you may think they are. And stuff like this is important to Muslims, so for someone to draw that is very disrespectful, and the artist must have known that.
Its absoloutely not. Most Muslims are not extremists. Ive met many Muslims who think everything like this is a disgrace.

Speaking of the whole denouncing of materialism...is their an exception for the home made masterpieces that make their way to Al-Jazeera?

I think Islam in Muslim countries is very different in terms of that Muslims in Britain are in a Christian country.
Still , lets not stereotype all of them as fear mongering hypocrites. Some of them are about as strict as most of us are with Christianity , they just dont get to show it , because Religion is the law in some countries.

[Xander]

I think its ridiculous the whole thing, its like someone from their country coming over here doing exactly the same thing but naming a teddy bear winston(Or any iconic figure of the U.K) But yet, we wouldn't punish them or even jail them

[Lauren]

Originally posted by Xander
I think its ridiculous the whole thing, its like someone from their country coming over here doing exactly the same thing but naming a teddy bear winston(Or any iconic figure of the U.K) But yet, we wouldn't punish them or even jail them

And who are we to dictate that our way of life is more 'right' than theirs? It's nothing like your analogy, not at all - we live by different rules and norms as do they - we are NOT in the right position to say that our way of life is more justified.

[Sticks]

Originally posted by Xander
I think its ridiculous the whole thing, its like someone from their country coming over here doing exactly the same thing but naming a teddy bear winston(Or any iconic figure of the U.K) But yet, we wouldn't punish them or even jail them


On Friday I heard on the radio a letter from a Christian admiring the demonstrators because they were standing up for their beliefs.

[Stu]

Originally posted by Sticks
Originally posted by Xander
I think its ridiculous the whole thing, its like someone from their country coming over here doing exactly the same thing but naming a teddy bear winston(Or any iconic figure of the U.K) But yet, we wouldn't punish them or even jail them


On Friday I heard on the radio a letter from a Christian admiring the demonstrators because they were standing up for their beliefs.
I suppose then we should admire the Nazi movement? Or is this sort of hate justified because its set in Religion?

Originally posted by Lauren
we are NOT in the right position to say that our way of life is more justified.

Arent we? Really? Because I think our way of life is definately better. We are a free peoples in terms of Faith over here. We may be apathetic towards the church nowdays but I would rather be in apathy towards an unconfirmed-he-exists god than burn effigys in the name of it.

Again , I ask of you all , what happened to the Golden Rule for these people?

''None of you [truly] believes until he wishes for his brother what he wishes for himself."

[Tanser_Man]

Originally posted by Stu
Originally posted by Sticks
Originally posted by Xander
I think its ridiculous the whole thing, its like someone from their country coming over here doing exactly the same thing but naming a teddy bear winston(Or any iconic figure of the U.K) But yet, we wouldn't punish them or even jail them


On Friday I heard on the radio a letter from a Christian admiring the demonstrators because they were standing up for their beliefs.

I suppose then we should admire the Nazi movement.

And the innocent slaying of millions of people in Sudan.

Oh wait, all of this is ok because they have there own rules and beliefs. The keyword here being there 'own' rules, Islam is changed to whatever these extreamists want it to be, regardless of how ludacris it seems.

I keep hearing the Western world wants to shape the world, but i bet if you asked most of the women, men and children in Sudan and many neighbouring countries, what they want the most from life... the answer would be the stability of the west.

£160million in aid from our government, yet the Billions of sterling they make from oil is used to buy weapons to beat and maim there own people.

[Scarlett.]

The teacher will be released within the hour

[Red Moon]

Freedom for jailed teddy bear teacher as Sudanese government grant her full pardonJailed British teacher Gillian Gibbons is to be freed after being given a full presidential pardon by the Sudanese government.

The 54-year-old will now be put on a flight out of the country within the next few hours.

But despite her ordeal, Miss Gibbons was said to want to stay on in Sudan to continue teaching. "I am sad to be leaving," she said.

"I have great respect for Islam and am sorry to have caused distress."

Her pardon follows huge pressure from the international community, including pleas by high ranking diplomats and a petition calling for Miss Gibbons' release on the Mail Online.

This morning, Prime Minister Gordon Brown said he was "delighted" Miss Gibbons was to be freed.

In Liverpool, her son John said: "I've just spoken to the Prime Minister.

"He called to give me the good news himself and I've spoken to the Foreign Office as well.

"Obviously we're very pleased.

"We've just got to contain our excitement until she's on the plane. The family won't be 100 per cent happy until she's on the plane.

"I'd like to thank the Government for all they have done, the hard work behind the scenes, especially the two peers who went out there.

"Everyone's been really great.

"Obviously it's a great feeling today, we're very pleased, we have been under a lot of pressure."

Asked if he had spoken to his mother since her release, he said no but added:

"I'm sure she'll be very pleased although quite embarrassed to be on the news permanently, but very pleased.

"It's been a strange old week, very stressful and particularly bad for the family but now she's coming home, fingers crossed.

"If this week has taught me anything it is that anything can happen."

Mrs Gibbons' former teaching colleagues also expressed their joy at her release.

Rick Widdowson, headteacher of Garston Primary School, where she spent 12 years, said: "Everyone is very relieved and very pleased.

"We feel it should never have come to this but it's a good ending.

"One or two of the staff see Gill socially and I am sure they will be meeting up to celebrate with her."

Inayat Bunglawala, spokesman for the Muslim Council of Britain, said: "If it is confirmed, obviously this is wonderful news.

"Gillian should never have been arrested in the first place, let alone held in jail. She had done nothing wrong.

"It will be wonderful to see her back in the UK. I am sure she will be welcomed by both Muslims and non-Muslims after her quite terrible ordeal at the hands of the Sudanese authorities."

Reacting to this morning's development, Dr Khalid al-Mubarak, of the Sudanese Embassy in London, said: "Congratulations. I am overjoyed.

"She is a teacher who went to teach our children English and she has helped a great deal and I am very grateful.

"What has happened was a cultural misunderstanding, a minor one, and I hope she, her family and the British people won't be affected by what has happened.

"The demonstrations were an argument from the fringe.

"I hope for the best relationship with Britain in the months ahead." A spokesman for the Foreign and Commonwealth Office said he could not confirm reports of the pardon.

The mother-of-two was given a 15-day sentence last week after being found guilty of insulting Islam by calling a teddy Mohammed.

Over the weekend, sources at the British Embassy in Khartoum said there were "high hopes" she would be on her way home today after top-level negotiations.

Two British Muslim peers had flown into Khartoum on Saturday to press Sudanese president Omar al-Basir for Miss Gibbons' release.

And it appears that the pleas of Labour peer Lord Ahmed and Tory Baroness Warsi finally produced a result.

The pair had been scheduled to fly back today, but delayed their departure amid signs that progress was being made.

Lord Ahmed said President al-Bashir had listened carefully during their talks.

Speaking from the capital, Khartoum, to CNN International, Lord Ahmed said:

"This was an unfortunate, unintentional misunderstanding and I did say to him Gillian loves Sudan, the children in her school and the religion of Sudan and how much she would love to come back to this country."

Mrs Gibbons, who is being held in a detention centre rather than a prison for her own safety, said she was in good spirits.

She joked: "I have been given so many apples I could set up my own stall."

The career teacher was put on trial last Thursday after allowing her class of seven-year-olds to name a teddy bear "Mohammed" for a school project.

It was seen as a blasphemous insult - giving a toy the name of the Prophet.

The mother of two had taken up the post at Khartoum's Unity High

School only this autumn after her marriage ended in divorce.

The two peers, whose visit is described as a "private initiative", have had a series of meetings with Sudanese government officials.

They admitted the talks had been difficult, but Lady Warsi added: "I think we made quite a lot of progress".

Only the president had the power to change the sentence, but his position has been complicated by the angry demonstrations in Khartoum on Friday, when mobs carrying swords and knives called for the teacher to be killed.

The peers have also met Mrs Gibbons, who yesterday made only her second public statement since she was arrested two weeks ago.

"I'm fine, I'm well," she said. "I'm very grateful to all the people working on my behalf. I know so many people have done so much.

"I know the Prime Minister has called my son, and I'm really grateful to everyone.

"I want people to know I've been well treated, and especially that I'm well fed.

"I've been given so many apples I feel I could set up my own stall.

"The guards are constantly asking if I have everything I need.

"The Sudanese people in general have been pleasant and very generous.

"I'm really sad to have to leave and if I could go back to work tomorrow then I would."

Foreign Secretary David Miliband had called the Sudanese foreign minister to stress his "very strong concern" that Mrs Gibbons is still being held.

He also phoned her 25-year-old son John to insist that the Government has been doing everything it can.

Mrs Gibbons's Sudanese lawyer claimed she may have been the unintended victim of a "spiteful plot" by a bitter colleague.

Kamal al-Gizouli said office worker Sarah Khaward had fallen out with the school principal Marina Hitchens.

She decided to tell the authorities about Mohammed the teddy bear in the hope they would arrest the head.

Intead, they turned their attentions to Mrs Gibbons.

Mr al-Gizouli said he tried to cross-examine Miss Khaward on the issue during last week's court hearing but she refused to answer.
Source: Daily Mail (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=499133&in_page_id=1811&ct=5)

[Sunny_01]

What wonderful news for her and her friends and family. I am so glad they were able to negotiate a suitable solution to this terrible mess.

[Sticks]

It is not over until she lands in the UK, and even then she might never be safe if someone who is a hardliner gets it into their head to take "the law into their own hands"

Remember Salman Rushdie?

[Sunny_01]

Oh I love your optimistic outlook on life Sticks :kiss:

[spacebandit]

Originally posted by dupin

Actually, it's a huge rule of Islam that you CANNOT draw Mohammed or Allah, as they don't have an image, as such. To do so, especially in the way it was done, is incredibly disrespectful to the Islam faith. I don't think it was an overreaction as such, because you have to remember that for devout Muslims, Islam is their life, it's more important than anything else.

Historically there are many Moslem artists who would disagree.

this is a very recent phenomenon. Mohammed has been portrayed numerous times througout the centuries without hide nor hair of a demonstration calling for someone to be murdered.

But now it suits the purpose of some, to do this, and even the "moderate" Moslems are guilty of aiding and abetting this kind of behaviour by making excuses for it.

If Islam is a strong religion, the religion of peace and understanding - "the teddy bear incident" would not have happened.

What we have is a "religion" attacking others on two fronts. One front being the murderous terrorist angle, whereby the world must become Islam of face the knife - and we have the second front . The one that decrys terrorism and murder in all its forms, yet caveats those comments by claiming "we" have to be more sensitive.

Religion is nothing more than a system of control with todays islam attempting to emulate the murderous fear mongering of the christian church of 500 years ago.

The inquisitions and then later, the witchfinders, on one hand, and some Bishops quietly decrying the inhumanity of it all on the other. Very similar parallels to the islam of today

Well as an atheist I despise all religions equally.

Though compare the two,

ask a christian what he thinks about Jesus Christ being a homosexual - walking round the desert with 12 blokes, sealing deals with kisses with other men.....

Then ask a Moslem how old Mohammeds third wife was, firstly when they were betrothed, then when the marriage was consumated.

the second is a legitimate question based on islamic history, though obviously in this context designed to provoke a response, the first is a "theory" purely designed to bait a christian and provoke a response

Which do you think would provoke the most reaction, and why ?

[I have actually done it in the real world, at a conference about inner city problems and exclusionism]

[natjake2504]

I Just think its wrong all this - its a teddy and name - its like our kids calling there teddys richard or henry it makes me sick what they have done to that poor women, Who went to their country to help!!!!!!

[bananarama]

Originally posted by Lauren
Originally posted by Xander
I think its ridiculous the whole thing, its like someone from their country coming over here doing exactly the same thing but naming a teddy bear winston(Or any iconic figure of the U.K) But yet, we wouldn't punish them or even jail them

And who are we to dictate that our way of life is more 'right' than theirs? It's nothing like your analogy, not at all - we live by different rules and norms as do they - we are NOT in the right position to say that our way of life is more justified.


Hitler might have have tried that logic to justify his extreme insanity. Sorry your logic does not hold any water....

[bananarama]

Originally posted by Sunny_01
Oh I love your optimistic outlook on life Sticks :kiss:


Sadly he could be right.....Madness is madness and there is an abundance of it from religious extremism across the globe...

[bananarama]

Originally posted by Stu
I cant believe how many of us are saying ''Well thats their law''. Are people not going to question the law? No wonder the law walks all over them in such places.


I could not agree more. People accept insane cultures as a right which is like saying Hitlers culture should have been accepted.

Insanity is insanity and should be stated for what it is and not appeased with statements like "Well it's their way" same as saying OK commit human rights crimes and we will love you for it....

[Dr43%er]

"Because I think our way of life is definately better."

Over there she was imprisoned for breaking a law. As opposed to here where you can be imprisoned for 28 days (twice as long as her sentence) without breaking a single law and there being no evidence against you what so ever.

Yes, our way is so much better.