Discrimmination against men in the UK

[LargeAndInCharge]

this is my first serious debate topic!!!

a while ago someone made a post about men not being treated fairly so here is the link i found while workin at college:


Discrimmination against men in the UK

http://www.ukmm.org.uk/issues/dam.htm

[Dr43%er]

Lots of sound bites with no fact to base it on.

Lets just take one. Higher male unemployment. Have you ever thought that this may be due to women filling the low paid jobs? Go to your local Asda/Tesco and the like. Count the number of men and women on the till. You will be lucky to see 10% of them are men. Women are more likely to take a minimum pay job. This is repeated in non skilled factory's, warehouses, restaurants/bars. Male pride stops them stacking shelves. They would rather claim dole. Over all the average wage for a woman is lower than then of a man. What would you rather have. A lower wage and a male only gym or the other way round?

I am not saying there is no inequality, but it is on both side. The paper you printed has as much value as a political manifesto.

[Matt10k]

Originally posted by Dr43%er
Lots of sound bites with no fact to base it on.

Lets just take one. Higher male unemployment. Have you ever thought that this may be due to women filling the low paid jobs? Go to your local Asda/Tesco and the like. Count the number of men and women on the till. You will be lucky to see 10% of them are men. Women are more likely to take a minimum pay job. This is repeated in non skilled factory's, warehouses, restaurants/bars. Male pride stops them stacking shelves. They would rather claim dole. Over all the average wage for a woman is lower than then of a man. What would you rather have. A lower wage and a male only gym or the other way round?

I am not saying there is no inequality, but it is on both side. The paper you printed has as much value as a political manifesto.


Strange. My first job at 16 was in a restaurant and there were more male waiters working there. I then worked in asda at 18 and there were, as you say more women on the tills but there were also more men stacking the shelves.

So you see, your personal experience that you have seen more women working low end jobs counts for little unless you have statistical evidence to back it up.

Thus, the sources the OP listed (if true) still hold more merit than your/ our hearsay...

[Dr43%er]

A 10 second search found this.

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=591

Low Pay Jobs
292,000 jobs below national minimum wage in UK

Estimates from the Annual Survey of Hours and Earnings (ASHE) show that the number of jobs paid below the national minimum wage in the UK was 292,000 in Spring 2007, amounting to 1.2 per cent of all jobs in the labour market.

In Spring 2007 there were three rates for the national minimum wage: one for those aged between 16 and 17 (£3.30 per hour), one for those aged between 18 and 21 (£4.45 per hour) and one for those aged 22 and over (£5.35 per hour).

The number of jobs paid below the national minimum wage were:
• 16,000 jobs (4.1 per cent) held by those aged 16 to 17,
• 45,000 jobs (2.5 per cent) held by those aged 18 to 21 and
• 231,000 jobs (1.0 per cent) held by those aged 22 and over.

People in part-time work were almost three times as likely as people in full-time work to be paid less than minimum wage, with 2.1 per cent of part-time jobs and 0.8 per cent of full-time jobs falling below the minimum wage.

Jobs held by women were more likely to fall below the minimum wage than jobs held by men (1.4 per cent compared with 0.9 per cent). This was due to the greater number of women in part-time jobs.

Estimates for 2006 have been revised downwards by 40,000 jobs, most of which comes from the 22 and over age group.

It is important to note that these estimates do not measure non-compliance with the national minimum wage legislation. The survey used to provide these estimates does not indicate whether individuals fall into a category that is exempt from the legislation, such as apprentices or new trainees.



Please note the bit about women workers.

[Matt10k]

Originally posted by Dr43%er
A 10 second search found this.

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=591

Low Pay Jobs
292,000 jobs below national minimum wage in UK

Estimates from the Annual Survey of Hours and Earnings (ASHE) show that the number of jobs paid below the national minimum wage in the UK was 292,000 in Spring 2007, amounting to 1.2 per cent of all jobs in the labour market.

In Spring 2007 there were three rates for the national minimum wage: one for those aged between 16 and 17 (£3.30 per hour), one for those aged between 18 and 21 (£4.45 per hour) and one for those aged 22 and over (£5.35 per hour).

The number of jobs paid below the national minimum wage were:
• 16,000 jobs (4.1 per cent) held by those aged 16 to 17,
• 45,000 jobs (2.5 per cent) held by those aged 18 to 21 and
• 231,000 jobs (1.0 per cent) held by those aged 22 and over.

People in part-time work were almost three times as likely as people in full-time work to be paid less than minimum wage, with 2.1 per cent of part-time jobs and 0.8 per cent of full-time jobs falling below the minimum wage.

Jobs held by women were more likely to fall below the minimum wage than jobs held by men (1.4 per cent compared with 0.9 per cent). This was due to the greater number of women in part-time jobs.

Estimates for 2006 have been revised downwards by 40,000 jobs, most of which comes from the 22 and over age group.

It is important to note that these estimates do not measure non-compliance with the national minimum wage legislation. The survey used to provide these estimates does not indicate whether individuals fall into a category that is exempt from the legislation, such as apprentices or new trainees.



Please note the bit about women workers.


If you are 16, it’s not difficult to get a minimum wage job and employers certainly don’t discriminate by sex so those getting below minimum wage must be under 16.

Also, on the point you made on part time jobs- if more women choose to work part time, it is their choice. For example I know a lot of the girls working at asda when I was there were younger and worked part time whilst they were at college or uni (not as a career prospect) so I’m not really sure what your post is trying to prove, if anything.

[Dr43%er]

Ever thought the women (1%) over 22 that do do part time jobs do them as they can not get the full time jobs as they may be looking after family or can't get a full time job as they have no skills.

You asked for some stats rather than hearsay. I found some very quickly. You want some more?

http://www.frauen.bka.gv.at/DocView.axd?CobId=20555

As I have said, I know there are time when thing fall in the favour of both sides. But I would rather take a government funded paper than a paper with no back up from a bunch of disenfranchised men.

[Matt10k]

Originally posted by Dr43%er
Ever thought the women (1%) over 22 that do do part time jobs do them as they can not get the full time jobs as they may be looking after family or can't get a full time job as they have no skills.

You asked for some stats rather than hearsay. I found some very quickly. You want some more?

http://www.frauen.bka.gv.at/DocView.axd?CobId=20555

As I have said, I know there are time when thing fall in the favour of both sides. But I would rather take a government funded paper than a paper with no back up from a bunch of disenfranchised men.


But the stats you posted don’t prove that women are discriminated against? You said yourself, chances are more women 'choose' to work part time to raise children. I’d have to remind you, that having kids is another ‘choice’ and that in cases where a couple do not remain together, women are far more likely to receive and 'want' custody of the child in nearly all cases, they will win that custody.

To me, there is no accuse for allowing yourself to become pregnant, then complaining you aren’t able to work full time. Saying that, it is still possible for a woman to work full time with a child but why bother? Benefits make up the differance. My sister is a single mother and works part time and the benefits she recieves add up to what would get for a full time job on minimum wage. This makes it around £140 a week + her job salary. Were you not aware that single mothers get this benefit?

[Dr43%er]

The first posters article raised a point that I picked on. Male unemployment is higher, with out looking at the reasons. I was simply showing it is not as black and white as the paper was claiming.

At no point did I say women were discriminated against. Please don't put words in my mouth.

On choosing part time work. If you have a couple with a child and one has higher earning potential, would it not be the sensible choice to have the one that could earn the most go out and do that? As this is usually the male (see the pay gap stats) then it follows that the female would stay at home or work part time. If she did choose to stay at home to raise the child then she (as would be for him) are not classed as unemployed. Thus skewing the figures more.

"To me, there is no accuse for allowing yourself to become pregnant, then complaining you aren’t able to work full time"

Where has that been claimed?

Full credit to your sister for working when she could stay at home. But would you rather she went out to full time work and had someone else raise the child? This goes for single fathers too.

"Were you not aware that single mothers get this benefit?"

Of course I am. Are you a not aware that single fathers get this benefit too? Where is the discrimination?

[Matt10k]

This thread is about areas in which men are discriminated. It seemed you were trying to refute any evidence given by showing areas in which you think women are discriminated even if you didn’t say it, I thought you were implying it. If you weren’t I apologise.

I agree it isn’t black and white. Even the statistics don’t take into account all the issues. I.e. women choosing lower paid jobs or working part time more often doesn’t demonstrate anything other than it being their choice.

In the same jobs, women receive the same pay, there is no pay gap between men and women now in any area of the uk. If there was I think this would be the only evidence of actual discrimination. If one particular man has a higher earning potential than one particular woman it is due to other factors, such as that the woman did not pursue a career or has lower academic achievements. As I said, many women may choose to stay at home and raise the children in this circumstance than men.

If you are trying to say men have a higher earning potential than women in general, you are wrong. I also didn't mention men being discriminated on the points you raised so don't put words in my mouth either. Single fathers do receive benefits too but as I stated earlier, in custody cases where a man wishes to have custody of his child, in nearly all cases the woman receives the custody.

[Dr43%er]

"in custody cases where a man wishes to have custody of his child, in nearly all cases the woman receives the custody."

But that is not part of the point the paper was making on unemployment. If we want to move on to that, then yes I believe that women do get the better deal. But I still say the paper has no back up other than someone's ramblings. Have you actually looked at the site it comes from? A 5 year old could do better. If the poster was planning to use this as a document in any course work and they referenced this I would expect them to fail.

All the way through I have agreed that there are inequalities to both men and women. My main gripe is the paper and its over zealous rhetoric.

"Matrimonial & Family Law – this is wrecking the lives of about 100,000 innocent men and 200,000 children every year,"

Have they asked the kids if their lifes have been wrecked?

"preventative healthcare programmes for female cancers, and none for male"

Balls, if you pardon the pun.

"false allegations of rape used effectively by women against men they wish to attack"

I am not saying this does not go on, but how the hell is this discrimination? Yes the authorities must act so men can make false accusations too.

The whole thing reads like a child having an argument.

[Matt10k]

I used that because it tied into my other point of how men are discriminated in certain areas.

Also, I looked at the OPs stats. The statistics are probably correct but I agree, there is so much that statistics can’t tell us and they are so easy to manipulate.

Makes a change really to see statistics that are being manipulated to make women look bad instead of men. Usually the feminazi influenced media like to manipulate them to make men look bad.

Your point on cancers- breast cancer does in fact recieve far more funding than male cancers despite the fact that male only cancers account for a far larger proportion of mortality rates than the amount they recieve funding for.

On you point about rape- the discrimination occurs when rape allegations are not followed up and investigated correctly- the fact that men’s names are often released before they are even proved guilty. Must be great for all the innocent men who get tarnished by a rape allegation. Also the laws classifying what is rape, making it easier for women to claim rape when they were simply too drunk and couldn't remember consenting. You see, the laws themselves make it discriminating...

It is a shame Ron21 was banned, he knew most of the information off hand and posted many respectable sources for his information as well as seemeing to have a good knowledge of the subject in general.

I would say check out his thread but I think all his posts were deleted.

[Dr43%er]

On the cancer thing I agree. But I was on about them stating that there was NO preventative health programs. This is simply incorrect.

On the rape point I agree with you on names being released. But if a woman makes a false claim they as a rule get found out and get prosecuted. There is nothing anyone can do to stop someone making a false accusation.

On Ron21. I am sure he did know a lot. But having a debate would be pointless as the second he disagreed with something I said he would just post...

^spam.

or say it was pointless arguing as I knew nothing.

We may have different view points, but at least we have had the good grace to listen to each others points and reply in a polite manner. So on that front I am glad I am having this conversation with you and not Ron.

[GiRTh]

Originally posted by Dr43%er
On Ron21. I am sure he did know a lot. But having a debate would be pointless as the second he disagreed with something I said he would just post...

^spam.

or say it was pointless arguing as I knew nothing.

We may have different view points, but at least we have had the good grace to listen to each others points and reply in a polite manner. So on that front I am glad I am having this conversation with you and not Ron. Agreed. Ron used to resort to name calling at the drop of a hat.

I'd enter this debate but I think any discrimination men receive is so narrow and specific that it is hardly worth debating.

[Dr43%er]

How do Girth. Long time no speaky.

[Matt10k]

I'd enter this debate but I think any discrimination men receive is so narrow and specific that it is hardly worth debating. [/quote]

I’m glad you won’t be adding to this debate GiRth. I’m sorry but if you aren’t bothered you shouldn’t have bothered posting. It’s clearly evident that discrimination of men isn’t narrow and specific and there’s evidence to support it.

And thanks Dr43%er, I checked the OP’s source again and it is wrong and misleading in several areas. It makes a good example of when statistics can be misinterpreted. There are better articles out there that give a more realistic view of how men could/ are being discriminated, ways, I think we appear to agree on.

I suppose Ron just wasn’t diplomatic enough. I told him his points would be better appreciated if he wasn’t so aggressive in his approach. Still there will always be the people that come here and ignore all the facts they are given and it can be frustrating. Some are also just as bad at throwing insults around such as ‘sexist’ or ‘bigot’. This just shows how ill-informed they are.

[GiRTh]

Originally posted by Dr43%er
How do Girth. Long time no speaky. Hello Doc. Hows it going?

Originally posted by Matt10k
I’m glad you won’t be adding to this debate GiRth. I’m sorry but if you aren’t bothered you shouldn’t have bothered posting. It’s clearly evident that discrimination of men isn’t narrow and specific and there’s evidence to support it.
the discrimination is very narrow and specific. Are men being trafficked into prostitution? Are men not allowed to vote? Are men treated like slaves? No. Thus, the dscirimination is somewhat specific. You yourself can barely come up with the figures to back up your claims.

[Matt10k]

Originally posted by GiRTh
Originally posted by Dr43%er
How do Girth. Long time no speaky. Hello Doc. Hows it going?

Originally posted by Matt10k
I’m glad you won’t be adding to this debate GiRth. I’m sorry but if you aren’t bothered you shouldn’t have bothered posting. It’s clearly evident that discrimination of men isn’t narrow and specific and there’s evidence to support it.
the discrimination is very narrow and specific. Are men being trafficked into prostitution? Are men not allowed to vote? No. Thus, the dscirimination is somewhat specific. You yourself can barely come up with the figures to back up your claims.

Girth, everytime Ron gave you evidence, you chose to ignore it. I see no point in debating it with you either. I'd prefer to talk to people who actually do listen and don't appear to be so close minded.

[Dr43%er]

If I was wrong and someone showed me I would hold my hands up and accept it. I don't think Ron would ever do that. That is not a good debater. From the little I saw he just resorted to insults if he could not win.

Anyway, I hope we have some more good ding dongs in the future as i have enjoyed this.

Have to shoot. See you about.

[Matt10k]

Originally posted by Dr43%er
If I was wrong and someone showed me I would hold my hands up and accept it. I don't think Ron would ever do that. That is not a good debater. From the little I saw he just resorted to insults if he could not win.

Anyway, I hope we have some more good ding dongs in the future as i have enjoyed this.

Have to shoot. See you about.

To be honest, I thought Ron was terrible at debating too but that's not to say he wasn't intelligent and didn't make some good points.

I'm the same as you. I have changed my mind on many things when given sufficient evidence. I believe both men and women are oppressed in different ways and that one is no more relevant than another.

Heck, if someone could show me enough evidence, I'd even believe in God! Just can't see that ever happening... :bigsmile:

Anyways :xyxwave:

[GiRTh]

Originally posted by Matt10k
Girth, everytime Ron gave you evidence, you chose to ignore it. I see no point in debating it with you either. I'd prefer to talk to people who actually do listen and don't appear to be so close minded. The evidence Ron gave were usually specific cases in incredibly grey areas. I listened or, it would be more accurate to state, I read his posts but still thought he was trying to claim something sinister was happening when there are much more sinister forms of oppression endured by women around the world. Why ignore that issue and debate the fact that British men dont rule the roost in the way they used to. It's a pointless debate.

[Dr43%er]

I am not to bad Girth mate. Hope you is well. Anyway, I really do have to shoot.

I will have to tell you of my latest Nodis run in another time.

Keep well.

[Matt10k]

Originally posted by GiRTh
Originally posted by Matt10k
Girth, everytime Ron gave you evidence, you chose to ignore it. I see no point in debating it with you either. I'd prefer to talk to people who actually do listen and don't appear to be so close minded. The evidence Ron gave were usually specific cases in incredibly grey areas. I listened or, it would be more accurate to state, I read his posts but still thought he was trying to claim something sinister was happening when there are much more sinister forms of oppression endured by women around the world. Why ignore that issue and debate the fact that British men dont rule the roost in the way they used to. It's a pointless debate.

It's not pointless at all. If you think it's pointless, why keep adding to this thread? Why keep telling me you think it's pointless? I don't think it is pointless at all and can talk about it if I want.

And also specific evidence as you keep saying doesn't negate it at all in my opinion. It is still relevant. If women were being descriminated in a 'specific' way, I would care too.

[Tom]

I disagree with the thread title purely based on the fact that women are discriminated against in some areas, and men in other areas so its sort of a level playing field. It just appears that men are discriminated against more because men are psychologically prouder than women and until recent years have always felt they have been above women and in control. Men also like power more than women do. As women become more independent and are gaining equal status and rights to men (even though they have it anyway, I'm talking in terms of tradition, thoughts, reputation etc), men- especially older men- are beginning to think are they becoming less powerful. It just happens to be that things aimed at men in the past are now being aimed at women.

[Sunny_01]

Isnt it really sad that anyone is discriminated against though, in a perfect world we would each be treated as individuals who have equal rights.

When 2 posters mentioned child custody and how men suffer at the hands of the courts I really had to put my two pennies in. I totally agree that this is a huge area of inequality for men in this country. I couple of friends of mine have both suffered because of the terrible family court system we have. One male friend would certainly be the better main care giver to his 2 children, he adores them, he always puts his kids first. His ex is a vile creature who would rather leave them with a babysitter she hardly knows, than in the hands of their capable father while she goes out and gets off her rocks on whatever takes her fancy.

I truly believe that the family courts in this country should have more power to enforce their rulings, sadly though they just dont send women to prison for failing to fulfill agreements made.

[GiRTh]

Originally posted by Matt10k
It's not pointless at all. If you think it's pointless, why keep adding to this thread? Why keep telling me you think it's pointless? I don't think it is pointless at all and can talk about it if I want.

And also specific evidence as you keep saying doesn't negate it at all in my opinion. It is still relevant. If women were being descriminated in a 'specific' way, I would care too. Women are being disciminated against in specific and broad ways. Why dont we talk about that? Why dwell on this tired old argument justifiying a somewhat misogynistic point of view?

The fact that British men dont rule the roost as much as they used to is not down to discrimination it down to some thing else called equality.

[Matt10k]

Originally posted by GiRTh
Originally posted by Matt10k
It's not pointless at all. If you think it's pointless, why keep adding to this thread? Why keep telling me you think it's pointless? I don't think it is pointless at all and can talk about it if I want.

And also specific evidence as you keep saying doesn't negate it at all in my opinion. It is still relevant. If women were being descriminated in a 'specific' way, I would care too. Women are being disciminated against in specific and broad ways. Why dont we talk about that? Why dwell on this tired old argument justifiying a somewhat misogynistic point of view?

The fact that British men dont rule the roost as much as they used to is not down to discrimination it down to some thing else called equality.

Because this is a thread about how men are discriminated! If you want to talk about how women are- create a topic for it.

Also, pointing out that men are discriminated in certain areas is not misogynistic! Would pointing out how women are discriminated make you a misandrist? No, so no double standards please!

In a way, you are sort of proving my point anyway. Your reaction to everything is to call it ‘sexist‘, ‘bigoted’ or ‘misogynistic’ yet you seem to think it'd be ok to talk about how women are discriminated in a similar way.

Like I said, if you want to do that, create a topic for it. This topic is clearly discussing how MEN are discriminated and you already said you didn’t want to talk about it.

[Scarlett.]

I saw Loose Women laugh at the fact that Men will no longer be needed in the future and they are useless, pure utter sexism, strange if it was the other way round the show would be taken off air...

[Matt10k]

Originally posted by Chewy
I saw Loose Women laugh at the fact that Men will no longer be needed in the future and they are useless, pure utter sexism, strange if it was the other way round the show would be taken off air...

Ironic as well considering that program and the women presenting it are among the most useless and pointless things on tv.

[Scarlett.]

Too true

I mean they got the audience to cheer, why cant Men and Women just be equal, Women are slowly taking over by trying to get more rights than men. Just look at most programmes and listen to women going on about how men are "only after one thing" and "have a one track mind" I know for one thing I dont have a one track mind and I am after one thing; to live in a nice fair, peaceful, war free world.

Although I do understand that most women are not sexist pigs.

[Matt10k]

I know. I am also sick of being generalised or looked down upon by the media just because I am male.

The way it almost seems generally accepted with some people that ‘all men are the same’ and are ‘only after one thing’. It’s incredibly annoying.

Even adverts seem to portray this negative attitude towards men, making people believe it is acceptable to air these sexist generalisations when it is in fact no more acceptable than saying something incredibly patronising, incorrect and stereotyped about women.

[GiRTh]

Originally posted by Matt10k
Because this is a thread about how men are discriminated! If you want to talk about how women are- create a topic for it.

Also, pointing out that men are discriminated in certain areas is not misogynistic! Would pointing out how women are discriminated make you a misandrist? No, so no double standards please!

In a way, you are sort of proving my point anyway. Your reaction to everything is to call it ‘sexist‘, ‘bigoted’ or ‘misogynistic’ yet you seem to think it'd be ok to talk about how women are discriminated in a similar way.

Like I said, if you want to do that, create a topic for it. This topic is clearly discussing how MEN are discriminated and you already said you didn’t want to talk about it. The title of the thread state 'Discriminstion against men'. I believe that to be a bunch of white British middle class men asking why they dont have such as big a say in things as they used to. After all, that is the real debate here. As I stated above that is due to equality. As a black man who grew up during worse time than this in this country I believe I have more rights than I did 20 - 30 years ago. Any talk of oppression or discrimination is ludicrous in my eyes. For my demographic it's much better than it used to be.

To focus on this truly pointless arguement or why women get cheaper car insurance or some other garbage and yet ignore the discrimination and oppression of women around the world is indeed misogynistic. Its almost like it doesn't matter.

[Matt10k]

Originally posted by GiRTh
Originally posted by Matt10k
Because this is a thread about how men are discriminated! If you want to talk about how women are- create a topic for it.

Also, pointing out that men are discriminated in certain areas is not misogynistic! Would pointing out how women are discriminated make you a misandrist? No, so no double standards please!

In a way, you are sort of proving my point anyway. Your reaction to everything is to call it ‘sexist‘, ‘bigoted’ or ‘misogynistic’ yet you seem to think it'd be ok to talk about how women are discriminated in a similar way.

Like I said, if you want to do that, create a topic for it. This topic is clearly discussing how MEN are discriminated and you already said you didn’t want to talk about it. The title of the thread state 'Discriminstion against men'. I believe that to be a bunch of white British middle class men asking why they dont have such as big a say in things as they used to. After all, that is the real debate here. As I stated above that is due to equality. As a black man who grew up during worse time than this in this country I believe I have more rights than I did 20 - 30 years ago. Any talk of oppression or discrimination is ludicrous in my eyes. For my demographic it's much better than it used to be.

To focus on this truly pointless arguement or why women get cheaper car insurance or some other garbage and yet ignore the discrimination and oppression of women around the world is indeed misogynistic. Its almost like it doesn't matter.

Then you are wrong because this is not how I think at all. It is nothing to do with the men of the past, it's about equality and there are areas where men are not equal. Also, for someone who is seemingly so bothered about highlighting where women are oppressed, I fail to see any effort on your part to create a thread about it.

See, some people here care about mens rights, because they are less publicised. You might find it pointless as you have said numerous times (but then continued to talk about it anyway) but I don’t.

I think areas men are discriminated in are just as valid and relevant as the other areas women are discriminated in. It just so happens, this thread is about discrimination of men so guess what people are going to talk about in it?! Discrimination of men!

If you don’t like it don't post, if you think it's so pointless. I won’t be insulted by you just because you don’t agree with me so put your misogynist argument to bed, I've already explained that highlighting discrimination is not misogynistic.

[Matt10k]

Also, I find your generalisation that this is all about a 'bunch of white, british, middle class men having less of say than they used to' offensive. This has nothing to do with race.

[GiRTh]

Would you agree that to discuss discrimination against men without ever referring to dsicrimination against women is a one sided debate? I'm only trying to add a bit of balance. I think you would like this discussion to be one sided thus totally pointless. It is is misongynistic and prejudiced of you to continue to dismiss and ignore the much more prevalent cases of discrimination against women. Instead you tell me to start my own thread. I can make my points just as well in this thread and my posts are relevant.

This issue is not an issue worthy of more than a page of discussion. This thread should be a load of people stating that discrimination against men is terrible but it is, and has been, much worse for women.

[GiRTh]

Originally posted by Matt10k
Also, I find your generalisation that this is all about a 'bunch of white, british, middle class men having less of say than they used to' offensive. This has nothing to do with race. How so? When we had the 'men are oppressed' thread you pointed out that the thread refers to western men. Well as a western black man I think I have more rights than I've ever had. If I'm Confused then set me straight. Who exactly is the thread title referring to?

[Matt10k]

Originally posted by GiRTh
Would you agree that to discuss discrimination against men without ever referring to dsicrimination against women is a one sided debate? I'm only trying to add a bit of balance. I think you would like this discussion to be one sided thus totally pointless. It is is misongynistic and prejudiced of you to continue to dismiss and ignore the much more prevalent cases of discrimination against women. Instead you tell me to start my own thread. I can make my points just as well in this thread and my posts are relevant.

This issue is not an issue worthy of more than a page of discussion. This thread should be a load of people stating that discrimination against men is terrible but it is, and has been, much worse for women.

But you are not balancing it at all. You are calling people who point out where men are discriminated misogynists. I have never called you a misandrist for your views on how women are discriminated. You also seem to think women are more discriminated in this country than men or that this is somehow more relevant than how men are discriminated which just shows your ignorance.

And may I point out, I am talking about TODAY. I don't see how dwelling on the past helps anything. We've already learnt those lessons and in some ways it seems men are now the ones being discriminated against, increasingly in certain areas.

Your argument is basically akin to someone starting a thread on how dogs are abused and you repeatedly chipping in saying 'but cats are abused too'! This is a thread about how men are and since I believe men and women to be equal, I find how men are discriminated just as important as how women are. Your 'balance' is basically you calling me a misogynist. It's not balance at all...

[Matt10k]

Originally posted by GiRTh
Originally posted by Matt10k
Also, I find your generalisation that this is all about a 'bunch of white, british, middle class men having less of say than they used to' offensive. This has nothing to do with race. How so? When we had the 'men are oppressed' thread you pointed out that the thread refers to western men. Well as a western black man I think I have more rights than I've ever had. If I'm Confused then set me straight. Who exactly is the thread title referring to?

It's offensive because you are generalising people on the grounds of race. I see no reason why black men could also care about this subject- just because you don't happen to says nothing. There will also be white men, no doubt that agree with you so it is nothing to do with race, hence labelling all those who agree with me as 'a bunch of white middle class men' and then tellling us what we think is generalising, if not borderline racism.

If I said "oh this thread is just full of a bunch of black men mad about etc etc...' I would no doubt get pulled up for it, so since we are supposedly about 'equality' here, I am pulling you up on it...

[GiRTh]

What?

In the other thread I asked who is this aimed at. You gave me an answer that made me believe it was Western men. As a black western man I'm almost entirely certain that similar men of my age will agree that this doesn't really apply to us. We have more rights than we used to have. So who exactly is the thread referring to. You seem to know but seem unable to articulate it to me. Who is this thread referring to? And please be specific. Without a target demographic then this thread becomes even more pointless.

EDIT: IT was naive to think that this debate doesn't filter down to race. It does.

[Scarlett.]

PE in my High School was incredbly sexist
Boys-Football
Girls-Netball
(Both generalisasions based on sex, not all boys like football, not all girls like netball)

Most of the time boys where out in -1 Celsius in shorts and T-shirt, we had to carry all chairs outside while girls sat down inside the sports hall

[Matt10k]

Originally posted by GiRTh
What?

In the other thread I asked who is this aimed at. You gave me an answer that made me believe it was Western men. As a black western man I'm almost entirely certain that similar men of my age will agree that this doesn't really apply to us. We have more rights than we used to have. So who exactly is the thread referring to. You seem to know but seem unable to articulate it to me. Who is this thread referring to? And please be specific. Without a target demographic then this thread becomes even more pointless.


I didn't create this thread but when I talk about it, I am referring to men living in the uk and other 'westernised' countries. Why would any person be excluded from talking about it? Even people outside the westernised countries may have an opinion- I just make it clear that I only think this discrimination of men occurs in westernised countries.

[Dr43%er]

Did you want to play netball?

[Matt10k]

EDIT: IT was naive to think that this debate doesn't filter down to race. It does. [/quote]

It appears to with you. I think your predjudice just shone through.

[Scarlett.]

Originally posted by Dr43%er
Did you want to play netball? If I had a choice between playing football in shorts and T-shirt in -1C and playing Netball in a warm sports hall, I'd choose netball rather than catching a cold.

Plus it didnt help that our PE Teacher was a Cock filled with steriods

[GiRTh]

Originally posted by Matt10k
EDIT: IT was naive to think that this debate doesn't filter down to race. It does.

It appears to with you. I think your predjudice just shone through. [/quote]Not at all. I, apparently incorrectly, thought that the first thread referred to ALL men- it said as much. You were courteous enough to set me straight and tell me that it referred to Western men - Even though it didn't say so. This thread referrs to Just 'Men' but as a black western man I know from my own personal experiences that I am not being disciminated against anywhere as much as my father was or as much as I was 15 years ago. I'm simply pointing out, as I have done numerous times, that this debate refers to a specific demographic and only sights very specific and somewhat amgibuous examples. Where is the prejudice that you refer to?

[GiRTh]

Originally posted by Matt10k
Even people outside the westernised countries may have an opinionSo nice of you to be so inclusive.

[Matt10k]

Originally posted by GiRTh
Originally posted by Matt10kEven people outside the westernised countries may have an opinionSo nice of you to be so inclusive.


GiRth, that is because it is less likely for someone living in a muslim country for example to say men are oppressed when it is women who are oppressed there. I'm sure you understood my point but you seem determined to get the race card in there somewhere.

It was you who said this thread was probably made up of middle class white men. Like to generalise much?

[GiRTh]

Originally posted by Matt10k
Originally posted by GiRTh
Originally posted by Matt10kEven people outside the westernised countries may have an opinionSo nice of you to be so inclusive.


GiRth, that is because it is less likely for someone living in a muslim country for example to say men are oppressed when it is women who are oppressed there. I'm sure you understood my point but you seem determined to get the race card in there somewhere.

It was you who said this thread was probably made up of middle class white men. Like to generalise much? Oh dear. I was reluctant to post in this thread for this very reason. I have, on occasion after occasion, asked you to be more specific regarding who this thread refers to, You gave me an impression that this thread referred to western men. I knew as a black wester man that there was no way I can back up the feeling in thios thread. How am I playing the race card? I'm pointing out, again, that this thread refers to a very specific demographic.. I'm a western man and there is no way in hell that I agree with the sentiment of this thread. How is that playing the race card?

[Scarlett.]

Originally posted by GiRTh
Originally posted by Matt10k
Originally posted by GiRTh
Originally posted by Matt10kEven people outside the westernised countries may have an opinionSo nice of you to be so inclusive.


GiRth, that is because it is less likely for someone living in a muslim country for example to say men are oppressed when it is women who are oppressed there. I'm sure you understood my point but you seem determined to get the race card in there somewhere.

It was you who said this thread was probably made up of middle class white men. Like to generalise much? Oh dear. I was reluctant to post in this thread for this very reason. I have, on occasion after occasion, asked you to be more specific regarding who this thread refers to, You gave me an impression that this thread referred to western men. I knew as a black wester man that there was no way I can back up the feeling in thios thread. How am I playing the race card? I'm pointing out, again, that this thread refers to a very specific demographic.. I'm a western man and there is no way in hell that I agree with the sentiment of this thread. How is that playing the race card? I have noticed that you refer to the colour of your skin in each post, I dont see why as it doesnt matter what colour you are

[GiRTh]

My colour is important in this case becasue I've been trying to get this thread to focus on how narrow the debate is and how other races see things differently. There may be dsicrimination in this country on the ground of sex but not to many people out of the WASP demogoraphic are complaining.

[Matt10k]

Originally posted by GiRTh
Originally posted by Matt10k
Originally posted by GiRTh
Originally posted by Matt10kEven people outside the westernised countries may have an opinionSo nice of you to be so inclusive.


GiRth, that is because it is less likely for someone living in a muslim country for example to say men are oppressed when it is women who are oppressed there. I'm sure you understood my point but you seem determined to get the race card in there somewhere.

It was you who said this thread was probably made up of middle class white men. Like to generalise much? Oh dear. I was reluctant to post in this thread for this very reason. I have, on occasion after occasion, asked you to be more specific regarding who this thread refers to, You gave me an impression that this thread referred to western men. I knew as a black wester man that there was no way I can back up the feeling in thios thread. How am I playing the race card? I'm pointing out, again, that this thread refers to a very specific demographic.. I'm a western man and there is no way in hell that I agree with the sentiment of this thread. How is that playing the race card?

This thread isn't 'aimed' at anyone and I already told you I didn't write it. My points are regarding how men (of all races and nationalities) are treated in the uk. Just because you don't agree doesn't mean other black people also won't- you don't speak on behalf of everyone.

You can't agree, fair enough, we knew that 10 posts ago. Why not just agree to differ and stop pulling up every point I write with how it ties into race (because it doesn't) or that women are oppressed too and then resort to insults as you have done many times by calling me a misogynist.

I have disagreed with many people here and they have all been civil apart from you.

[GiRTh]

Originally posted by Matt10kThis thread isn't 'aimed' at anyone and I already told you I didn't write it. My points are regarding how men (of all races and nationalities) are treated in the uk. Just because you don't agree doesn't mean other black people also won't- you don't speak on behalf of everyone.

You can't agree, fair enough, we knew that 10 posts ago. Why not just agree to differ and stop pulling up every point I write with how it ties into race (because it doesn't) or that women are oppressed too and then resort to insults as you have done many times by calling me a misogynist.

I have disagreed with many people here and they have all been civil apart from you. I made one post in this thread and you immediately attacked it. There wasn't much in it to attaack so you resorted to pointing out how I debated with you big pal Ron21. You got my attention. So here we are.

[Matt10k]

GiRth, I knew you'd show up to insult me for showing that I care about how men are discriminated. There was no need to bring race into this argument and there is no need to keep calling my views misogynist.

You attacked Ron and he began to insult you and got banned, fair enough. But you then point out how he “used to resort to name calling at the drop of a hat” yet you seem to not realise you are guilty of the same and I bet you never even received so much as a warning for it.

[James]

Hmm, just a suggestion... it would be better if everyone sticks to the subject instead of getting personal about it...

:spin2:

[GiRTh]

Originally posted by James
Hmm, just a suggestion... it would be better if everyone sticks to the subject instead of getting personal about it...

:spin2: I agree. Lets stick to the topic.

EDIT: For the record, I dont remember attacking Ron. As I recall I held a differing point of view.

[Matt10k]

Originally posted by GiRTh
Originally posted by James
Hmm, just a suggestion... it would be better if everyone sticks to the subject instead of getting personal about it...

:spin2: I agree. Lets stick to the topic.

EDIT: For the record, I dont remember attacking Ron. As I recall I held a differing point of view.

That is why I think there should be a thread for how women are discriminated. I know you said you should be able to talk about it here but it causes arguments. If there was a thread discussing discrimination of women, I could give my views on their discrimination in that thread.

Male and female discrimination is a separate issue as we are all discriminated in different ways. Also different races can be discriminated but I don't see how mentioning it here adds anything to the topic of how men are discriminated, thus perhaps they should get their own threads too.

I am only thinking to reduce arguments as it seems I can't demonstrate how men are being discriminated without a torrent of 'but women are discriminated too' arguments. Like I said earlier, it’s akin to someone starting a topic on animal abuse and then everyone repeatedly talking about how people are abused. Abuse of humans may be more relevant to many than animal abuse but if it’s a topic discussing animal abuse it is simply annoying for people to keep on mentioning abuse in other areas when it adds nothing to the original debate of animal abuse and how it can be stopped etc...

[Sunny_01]

I think that the key is tolerance. Each poster on this thread has valid thoughts and opinions on the subject yet are unable to tolerate each other and their opinions.

Matt why not open that thread on women and how they are discriminated against, I agree it could well go a long way towards restoring balance. Girth has strong feelings of equality and I am sure he would respect the sense of balance given to both men and women.

[Matt10k]

Originally posted by Sunny_01
I think that the key is tolerance. Each poster on this thread has valid thoughts and opinions on the subject yet are unable to tolerate each other and their opinions.

Matt why not open that thread on women and how they are discriminated against, I agree it could well go a long way towards restoring balance. Girth has strong feelings of equality and I am sure he would respect the sense of balance given to both men and women.

The reason I respond to threads such as this one is because it seems discrimination of men is taken less seriously and is less publicised than that of women. Some men seem to be scared to talk about it and I’d like to make everyone more open because I believe communication is the key. I think if we prevent people from being able to say what they secretly think, it harbours frustration and resentment and in the long run, helps no one.

I believe women are well catered for in this respect and are able to air their views on discrimination without being labelled a misandrist or a bigot. If we are truly equal, men should be allowed to express their concerns in a similar way, without being insulted… because regardless of what anyone will say, I will always think this way and I feel that being able to express it is important and I’d want other people to feel the same.

Still, I will open the thread on how women are discriminated. I realise not everyone feels as I do. We aren’t half as enlightened as I would have hoped. Perhaps you’re right, that by opening a thread on how women are discriminated, it will help some people to understand that my arguments can work both ways.

Obviously, I believe a lot of the ways women are discriminated are fully realised so if I did open the thread, I’d be interested to hear about areas women are discriminated in that are not well publicised and that perhaps require that attention. If it ends up being a load of girls ranting about how the last 3 blokes they went out with were sh*theads and that thus, all men must be cr*p, I’d be pretty disappointed.

See, really what I want is for people to be aware of areas where people are being discriminated against that are NOT currently well publicised and it just so happens that a lot of the areas men are discriminated in are not half taken seriously enough. I’m sure there are discriminations against women that are largely ignored too and I’d like to hear about them...

[SHANEHUGHES!]

I dont care if this is the wrong debate ro whatever! all i know is that i am a safe 17 year old male driver! I am studying for my A-Levels and want a car. I have £1600 for a car and earn a few hundred a month fro my part time jobs aswell!!

Yet the bloody car insurance dicks think that i can afford £3000, £4000 a year on car insurance ye thats totally reasonable init!! That is one bloody way that men are descriminated in bloody british society!!!!!!!!!!

[Dr43%er]

The insurance company's run on risk. 17 year old males are more of a risk. They are there to make money, not help you. Your demographic is more likely to cost them money. Not nice I know, I have been there. But now I am older and I get insurance cheaper. This is because people my age are less likely to crash. I would be bloody annoyed if my price went up to pay for your age group so you felt equal. Trust me, you will feel the same when you get to my age.

[Sunny_01]

Originally posted by Matt10k
Originally posted by Sunny_01
I think that the key is tolerance. Each poster on this thread has valid thoughts and opinions on the subject yet are unable to tolerate each other and their opinions.

Matt why not open that thread on women and how they are discriminated against, I agree it could well go a long way towards restoring balance. Girth has strong feelings of equality and I am sure he would respect the sense of balance given to both men and women.

The reason I respond to threads such as this one is because it seems discrimination of men is taken less seriously and is less publicised than that of women. Some men seem to be scared to talk about it and I’d like to make everyone more open because I believe communication is the key. I think if we prevent people from being able to say what they secretly think, it harbours frustration and resentment and in the long run, helps no one.

I believe women are well catered for in this respect and are able to air their views on discrimination without being labelled a misandrist or a bigot. If we are truly equal, men should be allowed to express their concerns in a similar way, without being insulted… because regardless of what anyone will say, I will always think this way and I feel that being able to express it is important and I’d want other people to feel the same.

Still, I will open the thread on how women are discriminated. I realise not everyone feels as I do. We aren’t half as enlightened as I would have hoped. Perhaps you’re right, that by opening a thread on how women are discriminated, it will help some people to understand that my arguments can work both ways.

Obviously, I believe a lot of the ways women are discriminated are fully realised so if I did open the thread, I’d be interested to hear about areas women are discriminated in that are not well publicised and that perhaps require that attention. If it ends up being a load of girls ranting about how the last 3 blokes they went out with were sh*theads and that thus, all men must be cr*p, I’d be pretty disappointed.

See, really what I want is for people to be aware of areas where people are being discriminated against that are NOT currently well publicised and it just so happens that a lot of the areas men are discriminated in are not half taken seriously enough. I’m sure there are discriminations against women that are largely ignored too and I’d like to hear about them...

Thanks for responding Matt, I appreciate your efforts.

[Sunny_01]

I wanted to balance things up here as well. In the discrimination against women thread we have talked about maternity leave. What I wanted to say here is that men are really left out in the cold when it comes to this. Their rights are limited and they are given very little time to bond at home with their child. I really belive that men should be given the equality of opportunity when it comes to being given time with their child, or at least given a more generous amount of PAID time off with their family.

[Dr43%er]

New fathers can take up to 13 weeks unpaid up to 5 years after the child has been born. Should they be paid for this? Why should a boss pay because you have decided to have a child? Should you if you are looking to have children take responsibility for your own actions and save if you want to take the time off?