Reverend slams 'talentless' Leona

[Tom4784]

Reverend slams 'talentless' Leona
Wednesday, February 20 2008, 16:20 GMT

By Alex Fletcher, Entertainment Reporter


Reverend and the Makers singer Jon McClure has claimed that Leona Lewis is "devoid of talent".

McClure criticised the Brit Awards for giving the X Factor winner four nominations, arguing that she was a part of an "endless stream of really bad records".

He told Metro: "I don’t like Leona Lewis. She’s nominated for four Brit Awards. Seriously, how can that happen? She’s so devoid of talent.

"She’s part of this endless stream who release really bad records. She can’t play anything, or write her own songs. What are you doing love? Stop."

The frontman also attacked the nu-rave scene, claiming that it had no relevance to genuine dance music fans.

"I’m not into all that new rave s**t. It’s a con. I love rave music but new rave isn’t rave music. It’s like New Order B-sides from 1985," he added.

"It’s rave music for people who hate raves, like Jurassic 5 is hip-hop for people who don’t like hip-hop."

I can't stand artists who are abviously so bitter, attention seeking and pathetic that they need to bitch about other artists to the media. How many Brit award nominations you got mate?

I used to actually like them, but i've gone off them now. I can't stand egotistical a**es like him.

[MarkWaldorf]

Who? Why shouldn't she receive 4 nominations? Her single was the biggest selling single last year, her album sold 2 million copies in 6 weeks, she's number one in fifteen countries and Bleeding Love won loads of awards. That amount of success should be snubbed?

She wasn't nominated for "Best Music Writer" or "Best Instrument Player" so why the hell is fussed about that? If she was then he could moan because we clearly haven't seen her do a lot of them.

[Shaun]

Those utter James Blunts [rhyming slang for a naughty word].

She has more talent in her belly button than they do altogether. Just because they're a bit different and insist on singing in the utter twattish style that mockney singers tend to do now (Kate Nash, Lily Allen...) does not mean that Leona's any less talented.

Urgh, that's made me really angry. Wankers.

[XxShortyxX]

Leona Lewis with wth put doubt the best singer around at teh moment, sounds like someone is jealous.

[Wasted]

Leona is big at the moment, so some artists will bash her just to make headlines. It's probably desperation for exposure or bitterness/jealousy that made them say this. Or both.

They may not like her, but to say she's talentless and state it as fact is ridiculous whether they like her or not, just because she's not to their tastes. For someone so talentless, she's done very well for herself without having to run off to the press and bash other artists for a bit of attention, like they have. In fact, she praises other artists and has never had a bad word to say about anyone else, even Jamelia, who has bashed her on more than one occassion.

The "really bad record" in question they referred to has had massive worldwide success, so their must be something good about it.

They said she can't write her own songs, which only shows they don't know what they're talking about. She had written lots of material before even enterting the X Factor, wrote lots of material for her current album as well, collaborating with different producers, and she has writing credits on the album.

I'm pretty sure she's said she can play the piano and is learning to play the guitar (or vice versa). So again, they don't know what/who they're talking about when they say "she can't play anything". Even if she couldn't play instruments, she still has a fantastic voice and that's the reason why she's built up the support she has.

"The frontman also attacked the nu-rave scene, claiming that it had no relevance to genuine dance music fans" And what does he mean by that? Music is subjective, people's tastes vary, who is he to decide what is genuine dance music and what isn't, or who is a genuine fan or who isn't? Silly music snob.

Sorry to type so much, but I am a fan so I had to go on a bit of a rant. :bigsmile:

[GiRTh]

Leon a is extremely talented. I'd like to know how many octaves are in her vocal range.

So what if she doesn't write her own material. Many great singers down the years have had to employ writers.

[MarkWaldorf]

Oh yeah, she wrote a full album before auditioning for The X Factor. I'm also sure I saw pictures of her on a guitar whilst recording Spirit. Even if she doesn't play it, she's learning.

[Hugo]

Reverend of the what????? Who the ***** are they!

[KKBL]

:sleep:TBH i dont give a **** what this guy says and i dont think most people do either because the biggest newspaper he could get this on is the Metro so that means not even the daily star would print this crap.and actualy Leona is a songwriter shes written over a huindred songs on her own she even wrote and prodused her own album before X factor and shes co written a few songs from her amazing debut album Spirit.

[Arneldo]

I wouldn't agree that she is talentless. But over-rated, boring, and predictable - yes.

[Dan_]

Music snobs like him really do piss me off to be honest.Just because she's not to his taste, doesn't mean that she's talentless.He's off the mark about her not being able to write songs too :rolleyes:

[supernoodles!]

talentless?what a stupid thing to say its so obviously a load of crap its actually funny.Boring,yes,talentless? you have to be kidding!

[XxShortyxX]

Originally posted by Arneldo
I wouldn't agree that she is talentless. But over-rated, boring, and predictable - yes.


How is she predictable and overrated?

The girl has more talent in her little finger then anyone who has won the X Factoror has been on the X Factor, she is up for 4 awards tonight, her ablum has sold millions, and her single was the most fatest downloaded song over, downloaded millions of times with in like minutes, and her single is the fastest saleing single ever, even if she is a bit overrated it's all for good reasons. She is the best singer with have and around at the moment, there will never be another Leona Lewis on the X Factor.

[MarkWaldorf]

She's over-rated for the right reasons. She's been around for less than a year and she's already had triple the success many UK artists who have been around for years have had. She works hard, she produces brilliant music and she deserves it.

I don't want this to turn into another Leona argument, because we know what happened last night. But yeah, she's over-rated for the right reasons.

[Arneldo]

Originally posted by XxShortyxX
Originally posted by Arneldo
I wouldn't agree that she is talentless. But over-rated, boring, and predictable - yes.


How is she predictable and overrated?

The girl has more talent in her little finger then anyone who has won the X Factoror has been on the X Factor, she is up for 4 awards tonight, her ablum has sold millions, and her single was the most fatest downloaded song over, downloaded millions of times with in like minutes, and her single is the fastest saleing single ever, even if she is a bit overrated it's all for good reasons. She is the best singer with have and around at the moment, there will never be another Leona Lewis on the X Factor.

We have seen singers similar, and better, then Leona for years. I don't see what is so special about her really. It's all hype and I have yet to be surprised, shocked, entertained or amused by any of her songs/performances.

She is defiantly talented, but I find her boring, predictable and overrated.

[Ruth]

I really like Reverend and the Makers, and would listen to them over Leona Lewis any day. But that's just because I don't like Leona's music. There's no doubt that she has got a brilliant voice, but her songs are pretty bland really.

[Stu]

Originally posted by Arneldo
I wouldn't agree that she is talentless. But over-rated, boring, and predictable - yes.
Agreed. I also agree with what he has to say about the nu-rave scene. Please. Its non existent. A term coined by NME so that twats who go around wearing all the colours of the rainbow on their right arm can have something to call themselves.

[CassetteFinger]

Bitter. I like Leona Lewis. I voted for her when she was on X factor cause she has a amazing voice, thats a huge talent.

[Ruth]

Originally posted by XxShortyxX
Originally posted by Arneldo
I wouldn't agree that she is talentless. But over-rated, boring, and predictable - yes.


How is she predictable and overrated?

The girl has more talent in her little finger then anyone who has won the X Factoror has been on the X Factor, she is up for 4 awards tonight, her ablum has sold millions, and her single was the most fatest downloaded song over, downloaded millions of times with in like minutes, and her single is the fastest saleing single ever, even if she is a bit overrated it's all for good reasons. She is the best singer with have and around at the moment, there will never be another Leona Lewis on the X Factor.

Well of course she has more talent than most X Factor contestants, because most of them are mediocre at best. And yes, her single was downloaded millions of times in minutes, but that would have probably happened whoever had won.

She's a great singer (Amy Winehouse is better though) with a terrific voice, but her songs are a bit bland and boring.

[MarkWaldorf]

Originally posted by Ruth
Originally posted by XxShortyxX
Originally posted by Arneldo
I wouldn't agree that she is talentless. But over-rated, boring, and predictable - yes.


How is she predictable and overrated?

The girl has more talent in her little finger then anyone who has won the X Factoror has been on the X Factor, she is up for 4 awards tonight, her ablum has sold millions, and her single was the most fatest downloaded song over, downloaded millions of times with in like minutes, and her single is the fastest saleing single ever, even if she is a bit overrated it's all for good reasons. She is the best singer with have and around at the moment, there will never be another Leona Lewis on the X Factor.
And yes, her single was downloaded millions of times in minutes, but that would have probably happened whoever had won.

When Leon one his downloads didn't even come close to Leona's. Leona definitely has a large fanbase (of course over-ran by Take That's parade of teenage girls) which is why she's broke so many records. Even 11 months later millions of people were still interested in her music.

[Ruth]

But Leon was rubbish, and shouldn't have won.

I'm not knocking Leona - she's got a terrific voice (but I've heard better), but her songs are boring, at least to me. We all have different opinions. I'm just saying you can't use X Factor as a real frame of reference, because there's far better talent out there than you see on an average series of X Factor.

[Stu]

She undoubtedly has an amazing voice , but when that voice is the centrepiece of what are mostly dumb , cliched , and incredibly uninspired pop songs. Yawn.

[:)tom:)]

douche bag!

(but he has good songs)

[MarkWaldorf]

Originally posted by Morpheus
She undoubtedly has an amazing voice , but when that voice is the centrepiece of what are mostly dumb , cliched , and incredibly uninspired pop songs. Yawn.

...and that's your opinion.

[Arneldo]

Originally posted by MarkChap©
Originally posted by Ruth
Originally posted by XxShortyxX
Originally posted by Arneldo
I wouldn't agree that she is talentless. But over-rated, boring, and predictable - yes.


How is she predictable and overrated?

The girl has more talent in her little finger then anyone who has won the X Factoror has been on the X Factor, she is up for 4 awards tonight, her ablum has sold millions, and her single was the most fatest downloaded song over, downloaded millions of times with in like minutes, and her single is the fastest saleing single ever, even if she is a bit overrated it's all for good reasons. She is the best singer with have and around at the moment, there will never be another Leona Lewis on the X Factor.
And yes, her single was downloaded millions of times in minutes, but that would have probably happened whoever had won.

When Leon one his downloads didn't even come close to Leona's. Leona definitely has a large fanbase (of course over-ran by Take That's parade of teenage girls) which is why she's broke so many records. Even 11 months later millions of people were still interested in her music.

Lets not forget Leona got a lot of downloads straight after the finale, and after Leon won his single wasn;t available for 2 days and even then it was in Albums and not singles because of iTunes mistake. If it wasn't for that, he would have go way more downloads.

[MarkWaldorf]

Originally posted by Arneldo
Originally posted by MarkChap©
Originally posted by Ruth
Originally posted by XxShortyxX
Originally posted by Arneldo
I wouldn't agree that she is talentless. But over-rated, boring, and predictable - yes.


How is she predictable and overrated?

The girl has more talent in her little finger then anyone who has won the X Factoror has been on the X Factor, she is up for 4 awards tonight, her ablum has sold millions, and her single was the most fatest downloaded song over, downloaded millions of times with in like minutes, and her single is the fastest saleing single ever, even if she is a bit overrated it's all for good reasons. She is the best singer with have and around at the moment, there will never be another Leona Lewis on the X Factor.
And yes, her single was downloaded millions of times in minutes, but that would have probably happened whoever had won.

When Leon one his downloads didn't even come close to Leona's. Leona definitely has a large fanbase (of course over-ran by Take That's parade of teenage girls) which is why she's broke so many records. Even 11 months later millions of people were still interested in her music.

Lets not forget Leona got a lot of downloads straight after the finale, and after Leon won his single wasn;t available for 2 days and even then it was in Albums and not singles because of iTunes mistake. If it wasn't for that, he would have go way more downloads.

True, but his CD sales were also down massively on Leona's. And if the same amount of people who downloaded Leona's song wanted Leon's, then I'm sure they would have downloaded it when it was finally released.

[Stu]

Originally posted by MarkChap©
Originally posted by Morpheus
She undoubtedly has an amazing voice , but when that voice is the centrepiece of what are mostly dumb , cliched , and incredibly uninspired pop songs. Yawn.

...and that's your opinion.
Good argument. Indeed it is. And yours is yours.

[XxShortyxX]

Leon Jackson has nothing on Leona, she is by far a million times better then him, I wish him all the luck in the world, but he will never be as sucessful and sell millions of singles and Albums like Leona has.

[xDramatick]

I agree with Morpheus {like always =|}

I think she has an incredible voice.
I'm not gonna say the best, but she can defo sing.

However, a lot of her songs are really dull and like Morpheus said, uninspired+cliche.

I also think a lot of people are going against her because she doesn't write her own songs, which I'm sure she's perfectly capable of, and if she had, her album may not be so.. dry [IMO of course, no-one will agree with me but evs.]

[Shaun]

Agreed with Darenn and Morpheus really.

But she's still far more talented than these Reverend people.

[Matt10k]

I think he’s right for the most part. She has a good voice but her songs are bland in my opinion. Still, there’s enough people who love her so I’m sure she’s not too bothered.

[Ruth]

Originally posted by Morpheus
She undoubtedly has an amazing voice , but when that voice is the centrepiece of what are mostly dumb , cliched , and incredibly uninspired pop songs. Yawn.

I agree with this. She has a great voice, looks fab and seems like a genuinely nice person...but her songs are rubbish (and yes, it's just my opinion, there's no right or wrong here).

I'd rather listen to Reverend and the Makers all day every day, than listen to Leona's CD a couple of times.

[Ruth]

Incidentally, record sales are rarely related to talent these days. There's loads of people having hit records who haven't got an ounce of talent, and there's so many genuinely talented acts around, who just can't get a break. Also, The Brit Awards are not a reflection of talent either.

[Stu]

Originally posted by Ruth
Incidentally, record sales are rarely related to talent these days.

Exactly. So no side can really give that as an argument to anything other than sale figures.

[Matt10k]

Originally posted by Ruth
Incidentally, record sales are rarely related to talent these days. There's loads of people having hit records who haven't got an ounce of talent, and there's so many genuinely talented acts around, who just can't get a break. Also, The Brit Awards are not a reflection of talent either.

But how do you define talent? Isn't it all just someones opinion?

[Stu]

Originally posted by Matt10k
Originally posted by Ruth
Incidentally, record sales are rarely related to talent these days. There's loads of people having hit records who haven't got an ounce of talent, and there's so many genuinely talented acts around, who just can't get a break. Also, The Brit Awards are not a reflection of talent either.

But how do you define talent? Isn't it all just someones opinion?
Its the majority opinion that becomes the general opinion of the masses. The majority opinion says The Fast Food Rockers were talentless. Opinion still stands but im not one to argue with that because they ARE untalented. Majority opinion rightfully and succesfully confirmed their lack of talent.

[Matt10k]

Originally posted by Morpheus
Originally posted by Matt10k
Originally posted by Ruth
Incidentally, record sales are rarely related to talent these days. There's loads of people having hit records who haven't got an ounce of talent, and there's so many genuinely talented acts around, who just can't get a break. Also, The Brit Awards are not a reflection of talent either.

But how do you define talent? Isn't it all just someones opinion?
Its the majority opinion that becomes the general opinion of the masses. The majority opinion says The Fast Food Rockers were talentless. Opinion still stands but Im not one to argue with that because they ARE untalented. Majority opinion rightfully and succesfully confirmed their lack of talent.

If talent is defined merely by what the majority calls talented, then leona and the others on the brits ARE talented because they are the most popular acts in the country.

[Stu]

Originally posted by Matt10k
Originally posted by Morpheus
Originally posted by Matt10k
Originally posted by Ruth
Incidentally, record sales are rarely related to talent these days. There's loads of people having hit records who haven't got an ounce of talent, and there's so many genuinely talented acts around, who just can't get a break. Also, The Brit Awards are not a reflection of talent either.

But how do you define talent? Isn't it all just someones opinion?
Its the majority opinion that becomes the general opinion of the masses. The majority opinion says The Fast Food Rockers were talentless. Opinion still stands but Im not one to argue with that because they ARE untalented. Majority opinion rightfully and succesfully confirmed their lack of talent.

If talent is defined merely by what the majority calls talented, then leona and the others on the brits ARE talented because they are the most popular acts in the country.
But as said , popularity alone is not an indication of talent. Silly people will always be their to buy silly music , re-opening the already concluded argument about opinion and how its silly music dpending on what the general publics majority verdict gives in.

I feel like im falling into a parallel universe of argument paradoxes here :joker:.

[Matt10k]

Hmm... but you did say the majority decides what talent is. The majority like acts like leona so by your own definition she should be the most talented singer in the country!

...I define talent as my own opinion and the opinion of other people with similar musical tastes. For example, as you already stated you don't believe record sales are a good indication of talent which probably means you like less commercial music. So your opinion regarding who is talented and who is not would probably be more valid to me than a leona fans idea of talent.

[Stu]

Originally posted by Matt10k
Hmm... but you did say the majority decides what talent is. The majority like acts like leona so by your own definition she should be the most talented singer in the country!

A majority likes Leona , yes , and as I already said , she is talented , so theirs no argument their , but popularity and talent are two different things. Her record sales indicate she is TALENTED but a lot of people who buy her records are younger fans and people getting in to the fad of it all who cant honestly decide upon talent. Right. Now I have a Heacache.

In closing - I would like to see Leonas shelf life. One thing can be said about talent and sales , but will we remember acts like Leona and the like in the same guise as we remember acts like The Beatles , Zeppelin and The Stones today? I doubt it. Its a very different kind of music. Pop like Leona has a shelf life these days and once its gone, its never to be remembered.

[Matt10k]

I'll just say that the only person that ultimately decides who is talented and who isn't when I'm buying something is me and you won't catch me getting anything by leona!

But everyone has a different view of what talent is, it just so happens more agree that those brit awards winners are where the talent is than don't.

And yes, my head hurts too...

[KKBL]

how can anyone say Leonas not talented?currently she has best voice in the charts.not to mention her songwriting and beauty.Bleeding Love is an amazing song song the sales are there to prove it.

[Matt10k]

Originally posted by *Cathal*
how can anyone say Leonas not talented?currently she has best voice in the charts.not to mention her songwriting and beauty.Bleeding Love is an amazing song song the sales are there to prove it.

Because someone might not think she is that talented. Sheesh, everyone is allowed their opinion on what talent is even if it would seem weird to a lot of people.

[xDramatick]

Originally posted by *Cathal*
how can anyone say Leonas not talented?currently she has best voice in the charts.not to mention her songwriting and beauty.Bleeding Love is an amazing song song the sales are there to prove it.

As far as I'm aware she didn't write many of her songs =|
I could be wrong since I don't own the album, but everywhere I've looked doesn't credit her for many of the written, only like.. 2 or 3 tracks =|

edit;; just checked online, she co-wrote two.

[Ruth]

Interesting discussion. I don't think talent is necessarily governed by what you do or don't like though. I mean, I admit that Leona has a fantastic voice, and I would class her as a talented singer, but I don't like her music.

And yes, I agree, people are allowed their own opinion. I love the Foo Fighters and Reverend and the Makers (for example), but a lot of people don't - it would be very boring if we all were the same.

[xDramatick]

I agree with Ruth there.
I prefer Reverend And The Makers song 'He Said He Loved Me' to 'Bleeding Love', but I'm not denying her of her talent.

[Stu]

Originally posted by *Cathal*
how can anyone say Leonas not talented?currently she has best voice in the charts.not to mention her songwriting and beauty.Bleeding Love is an amazing song song the sales are there to prove it.
Read the rest of the topic and try not to be so biased perhaps.

[GiRTh]

Good debate.

Talent is something that you know it when you see it. It cannot be easily defined and even though it is ultimately down to opinions, if someone was to say that Zinedine Zidane was NOT a talented footballer then just about everybody would agree that person didn't know what they were talking about. Sometimes it's clear for everybody to see.

Leona is very talented. Her vocal range is probably upward of four or five octaves. Thats talent. That cannot be coached. She is blessed with that level of ability. I'd agree that her songs are not what could be described as pushing back the frontiers of music, but she will definitely find her own place in the market. Also, with Clive Davis as part of her management team she may well become a global superstar.

[Matt10k]

Originally posted by GiRTh
Good debate.

Talent is something that you know it when you see it. It cannot be easily defined and even though it is ultimately down to opinions, if someone was to say that Zinedine Zidane was NOT a talented footballer then just about everybody would agree that person didn't know what they were talking about. Sometimes it's clear for everybody to see.

Leona is very talented. Her vocal range is probably upward of four or five octaves. Thats talent. That cannot be coached. She is blessed with that level of ability. I'd agree that her songs are not what could be described as pushing back the frontiers of music, but she will definitely find her own place in the market. Also, with Clive Davis as part of her management team she may well become a global superstar.

True, but I think music is more subjective than football (in my opinion anyway) and talent in music is more based around opinion and less around fact as it would be in football.

And just having a good voice isn’t good enough for me. She may be able to sing but I don’t like her style of singing at all or the songs themselves. So basically, I can understand why other people would like her, but it's just not my thing.

[GiRTh]

Originally posted by Matt10kTrue, but I think music is more subjective than football (in my opinion anyway) and talent in music is more based around opinion and less around fact as it would be in football.

And just having a good voice isn’t good enough for me. She may be able to sing but I don’t like her style of singing at all or the songs themselves. So basically, I can understand why other people would like her, but it's just not my thing. Talent is a subjective thing no matter what we're talking about but, you know it when you see it. However, in order to see it you have to know what you're looking for in the first is place. Her four or five octave range is the thing that sets aside from the rest. That's raw talent.

I dont like her music either but I have to concede she is able to do things with her voice that others will never be able to do. Thats talent.

[Matt10k]

Originally posted by GiRTh
Originally posted by Matt10kTrue, but I think music is more subjective than football (in my opinion anyway) and talent in music is more based around opinion and less around fact as it would be in football.

And just having a good voice isn’t good enough for me. She may be able to sing but I don’t like her style of singing at all or the songs themselves. So basically, I can understand why other people would like her, but it's just not my thing. Talent is a subjective thing no matter what we're talking about but, you know it when you see it. However, in order to see it you have to know what you're looking for in the first is place. Her four or five octave range is the thing that sets aside from the rest. That's raw talent.

I dont like her music either but I have to concede she is able to do things with her voice that others will never be able to do. Thats talent.

But I think talent is less about opinion and more about fact when looking at it in sport such as football. It's like if a guy won the 100m 5 times at the olympics, he's talented without question! If an artist wins 5 brit awards, a lot of people might still think they're crap and they wouldn't sound stupid for saying it.

If someone said the guy that won gold 5 times at the olympics was "crap" that would be pretty stupid so do you see what I mean?

Talent IS subjective in all things, but more so in certain areas, music being one of those areas...

[GiRTh]

Originally posted by Matt10k
But I think talent is less about opinion and more about fact when looking at it in sport such as football. It's like if a guy won the 100m 5 times at the olympics, he's talented without question! If an artist wins 5 brit awards, a lot of people might still think they're c**p and they wouldn't sound stupid for saying it.

If someone said the guy that won gold 5 times at the olympics was "crap" that would be pretty stupid so do you see what I mean?

Talent IS subjective in all things, but more so in certain areas, music being one of those areas... I agree talent is subjective but I feel people should look at it with a more objevtive eye. Take Elton John for instance. What do you think of him? An artist does not stay in the music industry for 30-40 years unless they're abundantly talented. And, he is one of the most talented singer/pianist/songwriters ever. I wonder how many people would acknowledge it as his music is not exactly cutting edge. I feel people should put they're personal beliefs to one side and appreciate any talented individuals that come along.

[Ruth]

Talent is not subjective - opinion is. I find Leona's songs boring, and would not spend any money on buying her music. She has a great voice though.

I love the Rolling Stones, but Mick Jagger does not have a technically great voice - he says that himself. But his voice is brilliant for the kind of music he makes. He is a supremely talented lyricist though.

Technically, Leona has a far better voice than Jon McClure, of Reverend and the Makers - I just prefer their music.

[Matt10k]

Originally posted by Ruth
Talent is not subjective - opinion is. I find Leona's songs boring, and would not spend any money on buying her music. She has a great voice though.

I love the Rolling Stones, but Mick Jagger does not have a technically great voice - he says that himself. But his voice is brilliant for the kind of music he makes. He is a supremely talented lyricist though.

Technically, Leona has a far better voice than Jon McClure, of Reverend and the Makers - I just prefer their music.

Then does she really have a 'better' voice? People say she has, that's the media ideal, but is it better? As you say, you prefer other bands and their singers... You say 'technically', does this mean you think Leona is better because she can sing more octaves?!

Mariah carey can sing 5 octaves (apparently) but I think she sounds like a strangled cat. I can't bear her voice for more than about 2 seconds without projectile vomiting.

Would you really rather they sang a rolling stones song- because you say her voice is better but the songs are not. Fact is, Leona could never sing anything other than pop drivel, it's all her voice suits, just my opinion of course.
...

And GiRth, no I don't like Elton John and I don't think he's all that talented either. Maybe he was in the 70's (not sure) but all the songs of his I've heard over the last 10/ 15 years have been absolute crap.

And I don't think longevity is determined by talent alone. Were the spice girls really that talented? Yet they were around much longer than other far more talented acts.

Sometimes it’s about being in the right place at the right time, working hard, having the correct image, having the money to back it, having the confidence etc… In fact, what I’d call talent is probably pretty low on what you need to become a successful artist these days.

[GiRTh]

Originally posted by Ruth
Talent is not subjective - opinion is. I find Leona's songs boring, and would not spend any money on buying her music. She has a great voice though.

I love the Rolling Stones, but Mick Jagger does not have a technically great voice - he says that himself. But his voice is brilliant for the kind of music he makes. He is a supremely talented lyricist though.

Technically, Leona has a far better voice than Jon McClure, of Reverend and the Makers - I just prefer their music. What I was trying to say was that talent cannot be quatified and thus becomes quite a subjective entity. Leona is extremely talented given her incredible vocal range but her dull music taint many people opinions on her talent.

People can like what they want and buy what they want. Leona's talent should be based any one persons like or dislike for her music. I feel her talent should be acknowledged even by people who dont like her music.

[GiRTh]

Originally posted by Matt10k
And GiRth, no I don't like Elton John and I don't think he's all that talented either. Maybe he was in the 70's (not sure) but all the songs of his I've heard over the last 10/ 15 years have been absolute c**p.

And I don't think longevity is determined by talent alone. Were the spice girls really that talented? Yet they were around much longer than other far more talented acts. Have the Spice girls been around for thirty years? Talent in the music injdustry can most definitely be measured by longevity. Neil young, Prince, Elton John, Bruce Springsteen, Madonna these are all artists who have been around for over 25 years did they do that by being in the right place at the right time?

[Matt10k]

Originally posted by GiRTh
Originally posted by Matt10k
And GiRth, no I don't like Elton John and I don't think he's all that talented either. Maybe he was in the 70's (not sure) but all the songs of his I've heard over the last 10/ 15 years have been absolute c**p.

And I don't think longevity is determined by talent alone. Were the spice girls really that talented? Yet they were around much longer than other far more talented acts. Have the Spice girls been around for thirty years? Talent in the music injdustry can most definitely be measured by longevity. Neil young, Prince, Elton John, Bruce Springsteen, Madonna these are all artists who have been around for over 25 years did they do that by being in the right place at the right time?

It can be, I didn't say it couldn't, I just said there is often more to it. Longevity isn't based on talent 'ALONE'.

And no, the spice girls weren't around 30 years but you missed the point. They were STILL around far longer than other acts with arguably more talent.

And I don't think a lot of Madonnas talent is in her music. She creates an image and always seems to be doing the right thing at the right time, her voice is arguably pretty crap.

[GiRTh]

Originally posted by Matt10k
It can be, I didn't say it couldn't, I just said there is often more to it. Longevity isn't based on talent 'ALONE'.In the music business longevity is the key to talent. The artist I mentioned especially Neill Young and Springsteen have remained at the top due to their talent alone. They have no image or anything like that to play with.

And no, the spice girls weren't around 30 years but you missed the point. They were STILL around far longer than other acts with arguably more talent. The Spice Girls reformed for the money. The lack of success of the tour speaks volumes. It seem their fans have moved on but the girl still want to do the old tunes because they have nothing more to give. That's one of the reason the tour has been a bit of a failure ie the girls LACK of talent.

And I don't think a lot of Madonnas talent is in her music. She creates an image and always seems to be doing the right thing at the right time, her voice is arguably pretty c**p. Your right. Madonna does create an image but there is usually quality music to go with the new image. She is the blue print for the modern artist. She's shown that talent is not the be all and end all but talent does breed longevity.

[Matt10k]

GiRth, you can't deny the spice girls were popular for a loooong time in the 90's, more so than most pop acts seem to manage these days. Nothing to do with their popularity now, they DID enjoy enormous popularity despite not being talented (in our opinions).

And as for; 'do I think they were all just in the right place at the right time', I believe that is a big part of it actually, so yes, along with other things I mentioned, image, talent, confidence etc...

Doing the style that is most popular at that particular time or jumping onto an emerging scene, even defining it is part of the recipe for success most definitely.

That's why an RnB artist will probably always do better now than some really old style such as punk or progressive rock because these aren't as popular in 2008, in general. Of course, there are a few exceptions to the rule.

And whether madonnas songs are good or not is a matter of opinion. I personally think a lot of her success is down to having the right image.

I also think a lot of older artists continue to be popular because they were around during a time when there were less bands and music was less available.

They are no more talented than a lot of new bands with similar sounds in my opinion, they are just regarded as 'classic' because they did it first.

[GiRTh]

Firstly, the Spice Girls. When they were around they created this whol 'girl power' thing that alot of people tapped into. That had nothing at all to do with their talent. Now those girls have grown up and moved on. The Spice Girls were not artists they were a phenomenon. It had nothing to do with their talent.

So do you think that 40 years of sustained records sales, critical acclaim and numerous awards is down to an artist being in the right place at the right time? Really? Surely talent had something to do with it?

I also dont understand the argument that older artists were popular because they had more of the market. Surely now they have less of the market and the modern day need for marketing and advertising their popularity would diminish?

In these modern time an artist can jump on a bandwagon to attain success but surely not 30 years of success. Surely that takes a bit of talent?

[Matt10k]

Originally posted by GiRTh
Firstly, the Spice Girls. When they were around they created this whol 'girl power' thing that alot of people tapped into. That had nothing at all to do with their talent. Now those girls have grown up and moved on. The Spice Girls were not artists they were a phenomenon. It had nothing to do with their talent.

Exactly! And look how popular they were. So it isn’t always about talent at all.



So do you think that 40 years of sustained records sales, critical acclaim and numerous awards is down to an artist being in the right place at the right time? Really? Surely talent had something to do with it?

Of course and I did say talent had something to do with it, twice now, along with the other things I mentioned, you just didn't listen.



I also dont understand the argument that older artists were popular because they had more of the market. Surely now they have less of the market and the modern day need for marketing and advertising their popularity would diminish.

Perhaps you don't understand but it makes perfect sense to me. They had more of the market then, and now are regarded as classic so it can be cool to like them again.



In these modern time an artist can jump on a bandwagon to attain success but surely not 30 years of success. Surely that takes a bit of talent?

I think it does yes and I've said this.

[Ruth]

The Spice Girls 'girl power' image was created by a man!! That's girl power for you:rolleyes: He tapped into what the market was missing at the time.

Then does she really have a 'better' voice? People say she has, that's the media ideal, but is it better? As you say, you prefer other bands and their singers... You say 'technically', does this mean you think Leona is better because she can sing more octaves?!

Mariah carey can sing 5 octaves (apparently) but I think she sounds like a strangled cat. I can't bear her voice for more than about 2 seconds without projectile vomiting.

Well, technically, yes, Leona does have the better voice. What I am trying to say is this: Mick Jagger said in an interview that his voice is not what it once was, and was never brilliant anyway. But it didn's matter because it went with the music. But he said that if he had been an opera singer (for instance), he would not have been able to continue singing, because their voice does need to be pitch perfect, and opera singers need to be able to hit the right note each and every time.

Yes, I think Leona probably has got a better 'voice' than Mick Jagger in that sense, but I don't like her music. I wouldn't say her voice is only suited to bland drivel, because she hasn't actually released anything else.

I like Bob Dylan's songs very much. But I prefer to hear them sung by other people, because his voice is dreadful. I don't think anyone can honestly say that he has a technically good voice, even though some people might like it.

I don't think any of the Spice Girls are particularly talented at singing. Geri and Victoria in particular have a tremendous talent for self-promotion though. They were just in the right place at the right time. Their last single was the lowest selling Comic Relief song ever (or whatever charity it was they did it for). Their tour has had a lukewarm reception. Some of them have had moderate success in their solo careers, but none of them have had a long lasting solo career as a singer.

[GiRTh]

Originally posted by Matt10k
Exactly! And look how popular they were. So it isn’t always about talent at all......


.....I think it does yes and I've said this.
OK then.Lets break it down because I dont really understand exactly what you're saying.

Are you saying that Mariah Carey's 5 octave range is nothing special and even though that is something 99% of people do not have the ability to do it does not mean she's talented simply because you dont like her voice?

[Matt10k]

Yeah but Ruth the point I was trying to make was that people can have a good voice without technically being a good singer and some singers that are considered ‘technically’ good, I find to be plain awful such as Mariah.

It’s like, if a guy could hold a fridge up by his tongue, it’d be a talent but is it really a good one?! 99% of the population can't do it, wow, in that case I'm impressed then!

Mariah probably is talented in some perverted sense in that she succeeds in being able to sing like a freak. Leona is great at tapping into the youth market, off the back of the x-factor, singing bland songs in a crystal clear and arguably boring voice, but are we really supposed to be that impressed? Am I supposed to concede that she is amazingly talented despite believing talent in music relies on more than having a technically good voice?

[Ruth]

I'm not disagreeing with you Matt, in one sense. I can't stand Mariah Carey's voice, but that's just my opinion. It doesn't mean that she doesn't have an amazing voice.

I mean, I love Pink Floyd. I work with a guy who hates them, but readily admits that they are incredibly talented. It's just not his type of music.

[Matt10k]

Originally posted by Ruth
I can't stand Mariah Carey's voice, but that's just my opinion. It doesn't mean that she doesn't have an amazing voice.


Ok, I just find it strange how someone can say they can't stand someones voice but then say she has an amazing voice :puzzled:

Amazing to someone else maybe but not me. To me she doesn't 'sing' the supposed 5 octaves, she whines them.

So I couldn't give a stuff how many octaves she can sing!, she will always sound like an ill tempered cat on helium to me :bigsmile:

[Ruth]

Yes, but all I'm saying is that there is a difference between personal taste, and acknowledging someone's talent. I reckon if Mariah was to sing a different type of music (something a bit more rockier maybe), she might not sound so much like an ill tempered cat!!!

[Matt10k]

Originally posted by Ruth
Yes, but all I'm saying is that there is a difference between personal taste, and acknowledging someone's talent. I reckon if Mariah was to sing a different type of music (something a bit more rockier maybe), she might not sound so much like an ill tempered cat!!!

I was just saying that some people can think even the most hyped and supposedly talented artists are terrible. And the 5 octaves thing is nothing when I have to listen to the way she sings them. She butchers every one!

Mariah doing rock? I don’t even want to imagine that! :joker:

[GiRTh]

Somone acknowledging that Mariah or Leona are talented singers yet not liking their voice's is a show of the kind of objectivity I've been asking for in this line of music. I feel that something can be good despite the fact that it's not something I would usually like. Hence I acknowledge that Leona and Mariah are talented singers even though I personally dont like their music.

[Matt10k]

Originally posted by GiRTh
Somone acknowledging that Mariah or Leona are talented singers yet not liking their voice's is a show of the kind of objectivity I've been asking for in this line of music. I feel that something can be good despite the fact that it's not something I would usually like. Hence I acknowledge that Leona and Mariah are talented singers even though I personally dont like their music.

Good for you. I don't.

[GiRTh]

Originally posted by Matt10k
Originally posted by GiRTh
Somone acknowledging that Mariah or Leona are talented singers yet not liking their voice's is a show of the kind of objectivity I've been asking for in this line of music. I feel that something can be good despite the fact that it's not something I would usually like. Hence I acknowledge that Leona and Mariah are talented singers even though I personally dont like their music.

Good for you. I don't. Dont what?

[Matt10k]

Originally posted by GiRTh
Originally posted by Matt10k
Originally posted by GiRTh
Somone acknowledging that Mariah or Leona are talented singers yet not liking their voice's is a show of the kind of objectivity I've been asking for in this line of music. I feel that something can be good despite the fact that it's not something I would usually like. Hence I acknowledge that Leona and Mariah are talented singers even though I personally dont like their music.

Good for you. I don't. Dont what?

Acknowledge Mariah as a talented singer. I thought that would've been obvious.

[GiRTh]

Originally posted by Matt10k
Originally posted by GiRTh
Originally posted by Matt10k
Originally posted by GiRTh
Somone acknowledging that Mariah or Leona are talented singers yet not liking their voice's is a show of the kind of objectivity I've been asking for in this line of music. I feel that something can be good despite the fact that it's not something I would usually like. Hence I acknowledge that Leona and Mariah are talented singers even though I personally dont like their music.

Good for you. I don't. Dont what?

Acknowledge Mariah as a talented singer. I thought that would've been obvious. Based on the fact that you personally don't like her tone?

[Matt10k]

Originally posted by GiRTh
Based on the fact that you personally don't like her tone?

:joker: I can base it on whatever I want! I'm not telling other poeple they can't like her.

[GiRTh]

Originally posted by Matt10k
Originally posted by GiRTh
Based on the fact that you personally don't like her tone?

:joker: I can base it on whatever I want! I'm not telling other poeple they can't like her. It's not about liking her its about acknowledging her talent.

[Matt10k]

Originally posted by GiRTh
Originally posted by Matt10k
Originally posted by GiRTh
Based on the fact that you personally don't like her tone?

:joker: I can base it on whatever I want! I'm not telling other poeple they can't like her. It's not about liking her its about acknowledging her talent.

I already said I didn't acknowledge that. How many times do I have to say it?!

[GiRTh]

OK then. So is talent solely based on whether people like an artist?

[Matt10k]

Originally posted by GiRTh
OK then. So is talent solely based on whether people like an artist?

No, I don't think so anyway but I don't like her or think she's talented.

[GiRTh]

Whhat about Celine Dion? Is there anyone you think is talented even though you dont like their music?

[Matt10k]

Originally posted by GiRTh
Whhat about Celine Dion? Is there anyone you think is talented even though you dont like their music?

A few. Not Celine Dion though :joker:

[GiRTh]

Who? And why?

[Matt10k]

Originally posted by GiRTh
Who? And why?

What's this, 20 questions? :joker:

Well, I'm not really a fan of the beatles but I think they were talented. I think Leona has some talent, she has a nice voice, it just bores me. Could name hundreds...

[GiRTh]

Originally posted by Matt10k
Originally posted by GiRTh
Who? And why?

What's this, 20 questions? :joker:

Well, I'm not really a fan of the beatles but I think they were talented. I think Leona has some talent, she has a nice voice, it just bores me. Could name hundreds... So you acknowledge she is talented despite not liking her music?

[Sunny_01]

I heard an interview with the lead from one republic today who found a song for leona and he basically said she has natural talent and had she not won x-factor he would have been interested in offering her a deal as he thought she could make it really big in america.

[Matt10k]

Originally posted by GiRTh
Originally posted by Matt10k
Originally posted by GiRTh
Who? And why?

What's this, 20 questions? :joker:

Well, I'm not really a fan of the beatles but I think they were talented. I think Leona has some talent, she has a nice voice, it just bores me. Could name hundreds... So you acknowledge she is talented despite not liking her music?

GiRth, I said leona had some talent, in my opinion ages ago in this thread! lol

But I don't think Mariah is.

[GiRTh]

OK then. What about the five octave range. Whats that then?

[Matt10k]

Originally posted by GiRTh
OK then. What about the five octave range. Whats that then?

She whines every octave! Butchers every single one of em! :bigsmile:

[GiRTh]

OK then.