Breastfeeding in public

[Sticks]

This story (http://www.thisisdorset.net/display.var.2209486.0.mum_thrown_out_of_cafe_for_b reastfeeding.php) was reported in Dorset and picked up by a red top (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/topstories/2008/04/21/costa-coffee-apologises-to-young-mum-for-throwing-her-out-for-breastfeeding-89520-20390186/). Now if you follow all the comments on the Dorset paper you will find that this story is disputed. You will also find my comments. (Why would anyone want to make that up?)

This was part of what I wrote




susifloozie there is also the possibility that someone impersonated a waitress, or to be more acurate a Barista, or could even have been an official from the nearby Dolphin centre. With all the scrutiny that goes on I would be suprised that someone would even think of trying somethink on

On Saturday I was in a Caffe Nero in Newcastle when a baby next to me started crying and his mother , who was with her mother, discretley started breast feeding. Prior to the feeding, while he was crying I discussed the checklist required when a baby cries.

No one complained and I was not going to either, given what the WHO says on this matter. It was either this or a screaming baby. I was between the line of sight from the counter, so blocking the view from there, but even so I was worried one of the Baristas might spot this and intervene (How many are aware of the law?) My only comment to this lady was to let her know, should she need it that the downstairs disabled lavatory had a baby change facility. I am trying to be the progressive modern enlightened male here


My comments also covered other matters beyond the scope of this thread.

So are people here for or against breastfeeding in public or should this be done out of site, if at all, and possibly in the lavatory where women used to be directed to.

[MrGaryy]

Its a tricky one. I think I'm against it for the same reason I'm against topless sunbathing in public places because it can bring up questions in younger children that the parents won't be able to answer. But I see not much wrong with doing it in a bathroom.

[Tom]

I don't think theres anything wrong with it. IMO its just the same as bottle feeding in public and as long as the mother isn't embarrassed then I see no reason against it. Its hardly indecent exposure.

[housem8]

Originally posted by thebiggerbrother
Its a tricky one. I think I'm against it for the same reason I'm against topless sunbathing in public places because it can bring up questions in younger children that the parents won't be able to answer. But I see not much wrong with doing it in a bathroom.

I remember when I was about 7 years old and I was in Spain and I saw plenty of women topless I asked my mum weather it was rude and she explained that you can go topless if you wish. I replied (why) and she said (shut-up and go and play sandcastles)

I learnt not to ask silly questions :laugh::laugh:

[Mrluvaluva]

I don't see the problem. Females of all species are designed to feed their young. If a woman is out with her baby and they need feeding, what's the problem? The baby sure as hell isn't going to wait. What is wrong with a woman revealing her breast in public to nurture her child? It all seems so silly to me. Why should it be a problem?

[~Kizwiz~]

I've done it a few time but I wouldnt just whip them out in public for the sake of it. There are tops with secret panels that hide you while your baby feeds. When you breast feed a baby you mostly do demand feeding where you feed when the baby is hungry rather than every 3-4 hours with bottle feeding. So you dont have that much of a routine, you cant schedule your day around when your baby needs to feed.

Why should women feel ashamed for feeding their baby? When you are in the maternity ward you are almost made to feel guilty if you dont breast-feed your baby (as was the case with my 1st) so why is there so much negative feeling towards something so natural?

[bananarama]

It should be down to the individual and if children ask questions then they should be given answers. It's just nature and not indecent and children should not be lured into thinking it is indecent because some people may be prudish.....

[Red Moon]

This is the story of Nicola Harle. She was on Radio 5 in tears yesterday while I was driving down to Rutland. Costa Coffee's statement, broadcast on the the Radio station, had no mention of an apology and it seemed to state she was making the story up.

To be honest listening to the poor mum on the Radio it was Costa Coffee who are at fault and people should vote with there feet and move on to the next coffee shop. These people don't deserve the custom of decent people.

I think it's fine to breast feed in public. It's good for baby, good for mum and the right thing to do. It's 2008 and not 1908 people need to move with the times. I'm sure in the time when the New Testament women breast feed in public. It's natural.

[Sticks]

So did they accuse her of lying?

Some of the comments on This is Dorset seemed to say so with someone claiming that the "waitress" described" was not on duty and that nobody could recall the incident.

[Sticks]

Another story (http://www.portsmouth.co.uk/spare455/Breastfeeding-mother-is-thrown-out.2129356.jp)

Maybe it would be less hassle all round if mothers did this in the toilets:shrug:

[Sticks]

Originally posted by Sticks
Maybe it would be less hassle all round if mothers did this in the toilets:shrug:

Not that I am in favour of doing this, hence the :shrug: emoticon, but as store owners think they have to cater for the "majority" of their customers and don't want them "offended" that may be the only compromise, irrespective of what the law actually says.

[Red Moon]

Originally posted by Sticks
So did they accuse her of lying?

That is the way it sounded on Radio 5. As Victoria Derbyshire read the statement from the company out the poor girl started crying.

It should be possible to listen to the interview again at the moment on the BBC website. The interview would have been in the last half an hour of the three hour show.

[~Kizwiz~]

Originally posted by Sticks
Originally posted by Sticks
Maybe it would be less hassle all round if mothers did this in the toilets:shrug:

Not that I am in favour of doing this, hence the :shrug: emoticon, but as store owners think they have to cater for the "majority" of their customers and don't want them "offended" that may be the only compromise, irrespective of what the law actually says.

Well those store owners who have a problem with breastfeeding a baby in public and think its ok to feed in the toilet should go and eat their dinner in there too.... after all.... thats what the baby is doing.

[Sticks]

Originally posted by Red Moon
Originally posted by Sticks
So did they accuse her of lying?

That is the way it sounded on Radio 5. As Victoria Derbyshire read the statement from the company out the poor girl started crying.

It should be possible to listen to the interview again at the moment on the BBC website. The interview would have been in the last half an hour of the three hour show.


Do you have a link?

[MR.K!]

i dont think there is anything wrong with breastfeeding in public. i mean its a natural thing, and if people cant except that then tuff !

[Sticks]

Originally posted by Red Moon
Originally posted by Sticks
So did they accuse her of lying?

That is the way it sounded on Radio 5. As Victoria Derbyshire read the statement from the company out the poor girl started crying.

It should be possible to listen to the interview again at the moment on the BBC website. The interview would have been in the last half an hour of the three hour show.


Just to clarify is that the Monday show you heard it on? and Definitely the last half hour? I did not have much time before going out and so was trying to scan along in Real Player stand alone but did not find it.

[Shaun]

I don't think breastfeeding can be labeled as indecent exposure when The Sun is able to get away with printing topless women in Page 3 everyday.

[bananarama]

Originally posted by ~kizwiz~
Originally posted by Sticks
Originally posted by Sticks
Maybe it would be less hassle all round if mothers did this in the toilets:shrug:

Not that I am in favour of doing this, hence the :shrug: emoticon, but as store owners think they have to cater for the "majority" of their customers and don't want them "offended" that may be the only compromise, irrespective of what the law actually says.

Well those store owners who have a problem with breastfeeding a baby in public and think its ok to feed in the toilet should go and eat their dinner in there too.... after all.... thats what the baby is doing.


Exactly......Those that are offended by something so natural are themselves being offensive......A toilet is no place for anyone to be feeding.....

[Sticks]

I saw someone breastfeeding on Saturday at my coffee shop, Caffe Nero in Newcastle and I was not offended, I did wonder if one of the baristas might say something but nobody did.

Are we more progressive here in the north than in the south?

It was either that or endure a screaming baby, so I suppose there was some self preservation amongst us then.

[Sticks]

Originally posted by ~kizwiz~
Well those store owners who have a problem with breastfeeding a baby in public and think its ok to feed in the toilet should go and eat their dinner in there too.... after all.... thats what the baby is doing.

It is not so much the store owners, except in that case in Portsmouth in 2007 and possibly McDonalds Havant, 2006 but other customers, possibly.

Imagine for a moment you are the cafe owner. In order to survive you need a lot of repeat business.

Suppose a lady is discretley breastfeeding her baby in the restaurant.

A regular then complains to you because they do not think that sort of thing should be done in public. This regular tends to put a lot of business your way, as they tend to bring in a lot of clients.

Suppose you are not the cafe owner but a waiter or waitress and you do not want to be held responsible for a customer going elsewhere and taking his business with him

The lady is not a regular and it is her first time in your establishment.

Now what do you do?

[Sunny_01]

No matter what my position in an eating establishment I would never assume to tell a bresat feeding mother that she should go to a toilet or leave. The right for a child to be fed is a basic human right, I would like to have seen someone tell me I could not feed my babies in public.

I think we see more nudity on television and in the press than you do when a woman feeds her baby. It is not about showing off your breasts, it is about providing your child with what they need.

[Mrluvaluva]

Who would want to feed their child in a bathroom anyway? It's pretty unhygenic isn't it?

[Sticks]

Originally posted by Mrluvaluva
Who would want to feed their child in a bathroom anyway? It's pretty unhygenic isn't it?

I agree on this one - I was talking to another Caffe Nero barista and she is of the same mind of you and other posters such as Sunny_01. So maybe Caffe Nero, (touch wood) is a bit more enlightened.

What I was getting at though is that sometimes a person can be put in an awkward position. In my scenario, you could point out to the complainant that since 06 April 2008 a law came into affect to prevent discrimination of the mother and that your hands were tied, by law. Whether that would stop him going and taking valuable business with him, I could not say.

The Barista I spoke to did wonder about special rooms, as a provision until I mentioned that this was effectively segregation. This does seem to be a minefield for the unwary employer / shopowner

[Mrluvaluva]

Originally posted by Sticks

I agree on this one - I was talking to another Caffe Nero barista and she is of the same mind of you and other posters such as Sunny_01. So maybe Caffe Nero, (touch wood) is a bit more enlightened.

What I was getting at though is that sometimes a person can be put in an awkward position. In my scenario, you could point out to the complainant that since 06 April 2008 a law came into affect to prevent discrimination of the mother and that your hands were tied, by law. Whether that would stop him going and taking valuable business with him, I could not say.

The Barista I spoke to did wonder about special rooms, as a provision until I mentioned that this was effectively segregation. This does seem to be a minefield for the unwary employer / shopowner

I understand the point you made about it raising a quandary for an employee, but I don't suppose there is anything a member of staff can do about it. Maybe the establishment should make better provisions for a scenario of this kind with designated facilities specifically for this nature. I still think that is wrong though and cannot see why certain members of the public are so hung up on this.

Women reveal their breasts on page 3 of The Sun (as it has been mentioned) purely for a sexual purpose. This is for a completely different purpose and there should be no shame in doing so imo.

[Sticks]

Originally posted by Mrluvaluva
Maybe the establishment should make better provisions for a scenario of this kind with designated facilities specifically for this nature. I still think that is wrong though

That is kind of what I told the Barista this morning

Special Provisions = (We are hiding you away so as not to frighten the horses)

[x.Nicola.x]

I don't really have anything against it, but I probably wouldn't do it myself when I have children.

My aunty did it in public though when my cousin was alot younger. But I wasn't really old enough to understand all that.

[rachb]

I fed my son when he was a baby but never felt comfortable feeding him in public so used to have to plan my trips out between feeding times.It is very frustrating when you're out that there aren't many places that have a mother and baby room.I think the solution would be to provide an area in places that allow families for a mother to feed her baby.Certainly the toilet is not an exceptable place.They are building smoking shelters in the pubs and some restuarants but can't supply a room for mothers.

[sol]

I think mothers should be allowed to breastfeed in public. It's natural. If you have a problem with it, look away.

[AngRemembered]

Originally posted by sol
I think mothers should be allowed to breastfeed in public. It's natural. If you have a problem with it, look away.


So is urinating (and some would argue this is more of an emergency) ok to do in public, if others just look away?

[Princess]

Originally posted by AngnAndy
Originally posted by sol
I think mothers should be allowed to breastfeed in public. It's natural. If you have a problem with it, look away.


So is urinating (and some would argue this is more of an emergency) ok to do in public, if others just look away?

There are facilities provided in most places for urination. Theres not many places where a mother can breastfeed privately if her baby needs food.

[AngRemembered]

There are facilities provided in most places for urination. Theres not many places where a mother can breastfeed privately if her baby needs food. [/quote]


So there are as many places to perform one private need as there are another, surely this means the same rule for both then, in fairness?

[Princess]

Originally posted by AngnAndy
There are facilities provided in most places for urination. Theres not many places where a mother can breastfeed privately if her baby needs food.


So there are as many places to perform one private need as there are another, surely this means the same rule for both then, in fairness? [/quote]

Are you saying that people can breastfeed in toilets?

[Sticks]

According to The Daily Mail (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1026604/Mothers-win-right-breastfeed-public-places.html) article here



Under current laws, women who breastfeed in places such as restaurants or bars can be charged under public order or indecency legislation.


Which indicates that under current legislation it is illegal to breastfeed in public.

Therefore women for the time being should not! :nono:

If the child needs feeding use a bottle or do it in the toilets - it's the law

[Sticks]

Hang on

This other Daily Mail article (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-369360/Breastfeeding-mother-ticked-police.html)

Seems to say it is not illegal



There is no law against breastfeeding in public, but Labour MP David Kidney has introduced a Bill to Parliament under the Ten Minute Rule to guarantee a woman's right to feed her child anywhere without interference.

Anyone who intervened would face a penalty of up to £2,500.


So what is the current law?

:conf2:

[sol]

Originally posted by AngnAndy
Originally posted by sol
I think mothers should be allowed to breastfeed in public. It's natural. If you have a problem with it, look away.


So is urinating (and some would argue this is more of an emergency) ok to do in public, if others just look away?

Since when did I say that?
Urinating in public is unhygenic, breatfeeding in public isn't. Also urinating in public isn't normal behaviour whereas breastfeeding in public is.
Totally different kettle of fish...:conf2:

[Sticks]

As I mentioned above, it seems the current law is unclear, one article from the same newspaper appears to contradict another.

If it is technically an offence, then sorry I will have to be against breastfeeding in public, no matter how discrete, because I can not condone the breaking of the law.

If it is not an offence in law, I have no objections, given what has been said by the WHO

So some legal clarification would be nice here, but in absence of any clarrification it would be best to err on the side of it being unlawful to avoid the possible committing of any offence

[AngRemembered]

Also urinating in public isn't normal behaviour whereas breastfeeding in public is.
Totally different kettle of fish...:conf2: [/quote]

neither is it "normal behavior" to breastfeed in public, it can also lead to prosecution, although this would be an extreme case, a polite stop it would make more common sense.
Which would'nt be afforded to people urinating in public for the hygene reasons you mention.
Either way, I picked up on your point as your answer to the problem was for people to merely look away.
Looking away could be an answer to solving most 'minor public dissorders' for that matter.
Sorry, but why should I look away when someone else is in the wrong, breastfeeding is a choice if one makes that choice simple DO IT IN PRIVATE

[Lauren]

The only alternative to it is to feed a baby in a bathroom. I wouldn't eat my meals from a bathroom and I certainly would not expect my baby to.

It's natural, and unless every single business provides somewhere hygienic and nice for the baby to feed - then it should happen in public.
(Also a point against the 'urinating' point someone brought up. Businesses and services provide toilets, they don't provide private baby feeding areas that aren't toilets!).

[Jackie]

Why shouldn't woman breast feed in public i don't see how it could be deemed offensive its natural.

[Sticks]

Originally posted by jackie46
Why shouldn't woman breast feed in public i don't see how it could be deemed offensive its natural.

I am sympathetic to this, but because of an article in the DM, there is a legal question mark and until that is cleared up, the safest thing to assume is that it is not acceptable.

[Lauren]

Originally posted by Sticks
Originally posted by jackie46
Why shouldn't woman breast feed in public i don't see how it could be deemed offensive its natural.

I am sympathetic to this, but because of an article in the DM, there is a legal question mark and until that is cleared up, the safest thing to assume is that it is not acceptable.

I'd rather risk prosecution than feed my baby in an unhygienic toilet.

[spitfire]

Originally posted by Princess
Originally posted by AngnAndy
Originally posted by sol
I think mothers should be allowed to breastfeed in public. It's natural. If you have a problem with it, look away.


So is urinating (and some would argue this is more of an emergency) ok to do in public, if others just look away?

There are facilities provided in most places for urination. Theres not many places where a mother can breastfeed privately if her baby needs food.
Why can't they use those expresso things and fill a bottle up before they leave the house?

[Lauren]

Originally posted by spitfire

Why can't they use those expresso things and fill a bottle up before they leave the house?

Loses nutrients.

[Sticks]

But it would keep you on the right side of the law as it presently appears to stand.

[Lauren]

Originally posted by Sticks
But it would keep you on the right side of the law as it presently appears to stand.

Indeed, but I stand by my point that I'd rather be on the wrong side of the law than to feed my child in a toilet!

[Sticks]

It would be good to find out what the present law currently says

The DM 2005 article said it was not unlawful, but then the 2008 one says it the mother could be charged under public order or indecency legislation.

[AngRemembered]

Indeed, but I stand by my point that I'd rather be on the wrong side of the law than to feed my child in a toilet! [/quote]

So you'd rather bring about prosecution, (but, as I said I dont think it would go that far) than consider alternatives that are EASY to manage. How would this HELP your baby?

1, Feed the baby before or after a short trip.
2, Find a child carer for those outings which may take a little longer.
3, Find a more suitable place, a restroom that isnt that un hygenic for such a small ammount of time, a rea not so populated off road, a park, car park, (I am purely against those who whip breasts out like confetti at a wedding in this argument, with NO consideration for anyone)
4, Most important ...Express milk from the breast into a feeding bottle for a potential emergency .... if considerations 1,2 and 3 cant be made. And your not losing that many nutients over one feed, and this can be made up on the day EVEN IF indeed 2-3 nutrients have been lost whilst at at Tesco's/wherever

With this in mind I'm changing my oppinion now to why we dont take a more serious line with these mothers, everyone else has to adhere to public order, litter, dog fouling, ect... this is and urinating are all more of an 'emergency' and can be less of a problem if we just asked people to look away if they have a problem with it.

[Sticks]

It looks like from

This source (http://www.marieclaire.co.uk/news/health/260495/breastfeeding-legal-right.html)


As the law currently stands, women who breastfeed in bars and restaurants could, legally, be charged under public order or indecency legislation.


And from other sources, breastfeeding in public currently is illegal.

In theory, a police officer can have the woman arrested, prosecuted and convicted on indecency charges, for which she will have to sign the sex offenders register, at which point social services may very well take the baby into care and adopt it out.

So if you have to go out and do not want a criminal record and want to keep your child, get your baby used to the bottle.

Sorry, but as it is the law, and as that is the case I can not condone breastfeeding in public

[Ashleee:)]

It depends on where you live. In Scotland they passed a law a couple of years ago, the legislation makes it an offence to stop nursing mothers from feeding their babies in places like bars, buses and shopping centres. Businesses who break the law risk a fine of up to £2,500. There is adverts on t.v in scotland aswell to show that it is allowed in Scotland.
I have a poster up in my work that says we welcome breastfeeding mothers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJ_cHpunck0

[Sticks]

I would not have a problem with it in Scotland, because it is legal there. I have to be against breastfeeding in public in England, soley because it is ilegal, and I can not condone in any way shape or form the breaking of the law.

Sorry, but baby will have to wait until you can get home and feed in private, or you will have to use the toilet. I know the argument about eating meals in a toilet, but sorry this is the law.

[Sticks]

I need to add, that I do support the intention in the equality bill to legalise breastfeeding in England and Wales.

I am not against it in principal, just that I am not in a position because of where I work to advocate an action which can be considered unlawful.

[Sticks]

I thought I would ask the National Childcare Trust (http://www.nct.org.uk) about the legality of this and got this response



You asked our experts the following question on the 30/06/2008 16:40:
This is kind of a general query, sort of, and technically I am not affected, but it was something that has been discussed on various internet forums I am a member of. I read in the press about the new equality bill to be introduced in parliament. In various reports it says under current laws, women who breastfeed in places such as restaurants or bars can be charged under public order or indecency legislation.

The question therefore is, does this mean that it is currently illegal for women to breastfeed in public in England. (I realise Scotland is more enlightened on this)

To which Louise Hale has responded with:
Hi Graeme Thanks for your question about breastfeeding and the law.

As you will appreciate, we are not legal experts so can not really interpret the technicalities of law.

However, I do understand where you are coming from.

As I understand the situation, (and I have no legal background), there is no actual law that states that breastfeeding itself is illegal in public, however, there are other laws such as public order offences or indecency offences, that could be used to try to challenge a woman who is breastfeeding in public - should someone have the urge to try. New legislation is in the pipeline to give women in England the legal right to breastfeed and this should help to clarify the situation for everyone. Hope this helps.

Louise - Antenatal


That so far is the best I can get from experts, although there is the caveat that they are not legal experts.

So in theory a police officer could arrest a nursing mother under those offences.

Am not sure if an indecency offence can be dealt with by a police caution, if they did the mother would have to sign the sex offenders list, which would mean social services would most likely remove the child.

We have already seen from an earlier posting that a police officer did caution a woman in 2005 (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-369360/Breastfeeding-mother-ticked-police.html), so the advice as I see it still stands.

Don't do it, you may be in trouble from the law if you are in England

As stated the law is different and more enlightened in Scotland

[Lauren]

Originally posted by Sticks

Don't do it, you may be in trouble from the law if you are in England


Ridiculous - I say do it, regardless of the law.

Furthermore, you cannot be charged with public order/indecency charges by breastfeeding if you have the nipple covered, which - by the very nature of breast-feeding - it will be. So it's not against the law.

[_Audrey]

Originally posted by Bubbles
I've done it a few time but I wouldnt just whip them out in public for the sake of it. There are tops with secret panels that hide you while your baby feeds. When you breast feed a baby you mostly do demand feeding where you feed when the baby is hungry rather than every 3-4 hours with bottle feeding. So you dont have that much of a routine, you cant schedule your day around when your baby needs to feed.

Why should women feel ashamed for feeding their baby? When you are in the maternity ward you are almost made to feel guilty if you dont breast-feed your baby (as was the case with my 1st) so why is there so much negative feeling towards something so natural?

Can I just point out that my sister feeds on demand, but with a bottle. Not all bottle feds are done by routine!

But yeah, I think it's perfectly fine. It must be different in Scotland because most places I go there's signs saying "You can breastfeed here" etc.

[AngRemembered]

Technically you could be done, but it really would be some stupid jobs worth to actually take this further than a quiert reminder.

Most woman will be conscious enough of exposing breasts in public (yes believe it or not) as breasts when functional like this is not considered in the slightest sexy or nice, to the woman carrying milk filled breats, its the equivalent of a guy wanting to flash his abnormally swollen 'thingy' in public it might be bigger but embarrasment would soon stop you guys.

However there are exceptions and for these few thats why there is a public decency law, and rightly so IMO, but if ever this went to a court i for one would would be very shocked indeed, as the majority of woman in that position would be mortified to have gained the attention anyway.

[Sticks]

Originally posted by Lauren
Ridiculous - I say do it, regardless of the law.

Furthermore, you cannot be charged with public order/indecency charges by breastfeeding if you have the nipple covered, which - by the very nature of breast-feeding - it will be. So it's not against the law.

But

Originally posted by Angiebabe
Technically you could be done, but it really would be some stupid jobs worth to actually take this further than a quiert reminder.

SNIP

Originally posted by Angiebabe
IMO, but if ever this went to a court i for one would would be very shocked indeed, as the majority of woman in that position would be mortified to have gained the attention anyway.

Lauren may have a technicality, this has been a legal defence used by the naked cowgirl in NYC, although that is American law.

However, would a mother know this, were she to be confronted? In my scenario, although I am not certain if this is correct police procedure, she is separated from her baby and offered the opportunity to accept a police caution. She is told if she does not, then she will be held until a magistrates hearing and her baby taken into care. In order to get out, she might go for the police caution, and if they go for an indecency offence, we have the sex offenders register leading to social services.

As some police forces are now under pressure to achieve targets, it is easy to see how an officer might see a mother feeding her baby as an easy target, if he is under pressure to make up quotas

As for it going to court, in a perverse sense, sort of, I would like to see that happen as it would at least clarify the law. The only problem is, if at magistrates you get someone who is against breastfeeding in public. (I believe Betty Boothroyd was against it and had it banned from the House of Commons)

Roll on the Equality Bill, that will finally make sure mothers are seen to be legal, whenever that happens.

[Sticks]

This is how the BBC reported that 2005 case (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/norfolk/4457490.stm)

[Sticks]

Another case in the news (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1036330/McDonalds-apologises-group-mothers-staged-sit-breast-feeding-ban.html)


An official response to an earlier question from McDonalds (http://www.makeupyourownmind.co.uk/question-search?key=breastfeeding#question2)

McDonalds HQ, if not down on the ground level are progressive and we must grant that.

However the law is the law

In England and Wales, because of other legislation being used, breastfeeding in public can be seen as unlawful. An enlightened policy at corporate HQ does not negate the law of the land.

Even if we think the law needs to be changed

Apart from advice given before, such as feed in the toilet to comply with the law, I would add "lobby your MP" to get the bill passed, and also amended as in it's presence form breastfeeding in public would become unlawful again after the baby was over six months old.

[Sticks]

It seems that there is an alternate legal opinion on the legality of breastfeeding in public given in this blog (http://thedevilsalternatives.blogspot.com/2008/07/breastfeeding-is-not-illegal.html)



In the many debates over recent months the same fallacies have been coming up time and time again, even from prominent people in the breastfeeding community who should know better.

The fallacies are that the forthcoming Single Equality Act will legalise breastfeeding in public, that Scotland has already passed legislation making breastfeeding legal, and that breastfeeding is illegal in the rest of the UK under indecency and public order laws. These inaccuracies are now so ingrained they have been recently quoted as fact in national news reports (Daily Mirror, and until the story was pulled when the errors were pointed out to them, even the BBC).

[Sticks]

More on the alternate legal opinion, this time from a government minister.

From the Huddersfield Daily Examiner (http://www.examiner.co.uk/views-and-blogs/reader-letters/2008/07/21/protection-for-breastfeeding-mums-86081-21376410/)




Protection for breastfeeding mums

July 21 2008 by Our Correspondent, Huddersfield Daily Examiner

LIKE most people, the Government believes that breast is best for babies. That is why we are doing everything we can to encourage mothers to breastfeed and to make sure that they are aware of its benefits.

But, for many mothers, the uncertainty surrounding where they can breastfeed is a real deterrent. Babies do not get hungry to order and mothers have to be confident that they can feed their infants in a café, restaurant or shop without the embarrassment of having the owner ask them to stop.

In fact, this type of discrimination has been unlawful for women with babies of any age for more than thirty years, and the mother could challenge the owner under the Sex Discrimination Act. We strengthened this Act with extra 'maternity' protection, which means that if the baby is less than six months old the mother could also challenge the owner on the grounds of her maternity.

Some people also think that women can be charged with indecency for breastfeeding in a public place. This is, I am glad to say, utter nonsense and completely wrong.

But, as you can see from the above, the law is not as clear as it could be. People are unsure of their rights and their responsibilities in this area. That is why the Government will be using its forthcoming Equality Bill to make it crystal clear that it is simply not acceptable to shoo breastfeeding mothers and their babies out of places like coffee shops, public galleries and restaurants.

We hope that this will give women complete confidence that the law is on their side when they are breastfeeding their babies.

Barbara Follett

Deputy Minister for Women and Equality


As the minister says, the law seems confused, as is the media seems to be.

My earlier comments were based on what is reported to be the legal situation, and different authorities seem to have different opinions.

The media and the National Childbirth Trust seemed to indicate that breastfeeding in public can lead to the mother being charged under other legislation, such as indecency and public order offences. The blog and now a government minister says the bit about indecency is not so.

This still leaves the public order offence issue, even breach of the peace has been cited. (Norfolk case in 2005?)

If Breastfeeding in public is not unlawful, I have no objection. If there is a legal issue, I can not condone the breaking of the law.

So, with different legal opinions floating around, is it worth the risk south of the Scottish border until the law is clarified by new legislation.?

[Sticks]

Link to same letter on Government Equalities website (http://www.equalities.gov.uk/news/news-page3.htm)

Response to a Number Downing Street 10 petition (http://www.number10.gov.uk/output/Page15731.asp)

[Sticks]

As I reflect on this, we have legal opinion from one blogger and a government minister saying it is not unlawful, yet various media saying a women can be charged on two separate grounds.

Even if a minister thinks it is not unlawful, that I do not think is enough. (Think how many ministers have been found to have acted unlawfully by judicial review)

I would like to see legislation, along the lines of that brought in by the Scottish parliament.

In a sort of perverse sense what would be interesting would be so see a woman to actually get arrested and charged, just for breastfeeding in public and taken to court or made to accept a police caution. Maybe a case where because she was breastfeeding in public, she is made to sign the sex offenders register and her baby is taken away by social services and possibly adopted out, (Worse case scenario)

It would help clarify the law, as sometimes the law is determined by case law.

If the women is acquitted, then it confirms it is not illegal, but if she is convicted, it might motivate the government to legislate to legalise it, in the same way they had to pass emergency legislation to allow anonymous witnesses to testify in court.

I do think though, if they took the baby away, although the mother would never get it back, her sacrifice would ultimately help others.

Would the CPS go for a prosecution?

If she was made to accept a police caution, how would things pan out, given what happened in the 2005 case.

[Lauren]

Originally posted by Sticks
Maybe a case where because she was breastfeeding in public, she is made to sign the sex offenders register and her baby is taken away by social services and possibly adopted out, (Worse case scenario)

Excuse me?! .... Did you just develop that in your head? The sex offenders register and loss of custody? That hasn't been mentioned?!

:bored:

[Sticks]

Originally posted by Lauren
Originally posted by Sticks
Maybe a case where because she was breastfeeding in public, she is made to sign the sex offenders register and her baby is taken away by social services and possibly adopted out, (Worse case scenario)

Excuse me?! .... Did you just develop that in your head? The sex offenders register and loss of custody? That hasn't been mentioned?!

:bored:

My apologies, I did actually hint at that scenario in this earlier post on this thread (http://www.thisisbigbrother.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=81825&page=2#pid1273314)

It was one of those crazy what ifs we sometime postulate when making a point.

The reason I came up with this, was because in the press talking about the equality bill, they were saying



Under current laws, women who breastfeed in places such as restaurants or bars can be charged under public order or indecency legislation.


source (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1026604/Mothers-win-right-breastfeed-public-places.html)

Although according to one blogger's legal opinion, this is wrong.

Now my thinking was, if the indecency legislation was invoked, that would lead to a person having to sign the sex offenders register.

A government minister, in letters to the editor, (I posted a copy of it earlier in the thread) has said the bit about indecency is wrong as well.

However, my understanding is that law is determined either by case law or statute law, and no matter how well intentioned, a letter by a government minister, may not count, if someone disagrees with them.

Getting back to my really extreme scenario, it was hypothesising what kind of outcry in the media would happen were this actually to happen.

If that makes any kind of sense.

Personally, legal issues aside, I believe breastfeeding in public should be allowed, and we should have the same kind of laws as they do in Scotland.

[Tamarind]

don't see the slightest problem. Its just feeding a baby.

[Sticks]

Originally posted by Tamarind
don't see the slightest problem. Its just feeding a baby.

The problem is that some believe it is unlawful to do it in public. It is argued that it is not, even by a government minister, but that is yet to be decided by statute law or case law, until then, my extreme scenario could be a danger to any nursing mother.

I believe it should be lawful in England, and that women should have the same protection that they have in Scotland.

[bigbr0ther]

Originally posted by Gazbo
Its a tricky one. I think I'm against it for the same reason I'm against topless sunbathing in public places because it can bring up questions in younger children that the parents won't be able to answer. But I see not much wrong with doing it in a bathroom.

Hey, Gazbo, do you like to eat your meals in a bathroom?

[KawaiiSakura1]

i hate Breastfeeding:bored:. no way will be Breastfeeding my baby when i have one. I'm to young to have one now:spin:

[bananarama]

Originally posted by Gazbo
Its a tricky one. I think I'm against it for the same reason I'm against topless sunbathing in public places because it can bring up questions in younger children that the parents won't be able to answer. But I see not much wrong with doing it in a bathroom.


What!!!!!!! Topless bathing. Questions from younger children.....Parents cannot answer!!!!! Are you serious...........

Topless is just topless it's not genitals for goodness sake.......

[andyman]

Yes women should breastfeed in public... I just want to perv :spin:

[bananarama]

Originally posted by andyman
Yes women should breastfeed in public... I just want to perv :spin:


:bigsmile: But the government don't want you to.......They like all the perving kept for themselves.......

[andyman]

That is so true, i dont want to buy mums & jugs monthly

[Sticks]

Originally posted by KawaiiSakura1
i hate Breastfeeding:bored:. no way will be Breastfeeding my baby when i have one. I'm to young to have one now:spin:

But according to the experts, it gives many benefits for both mother and child, and also is free.

[Sticks]

Originally posted by bigbr0ther
Hey, Gazbo, do you like to eat your meals in a bathroom?

I am afraid that the counter argument to this is, "Well me eating in public is not illegal"

This is the problem I have been stating, the law.

There are contrary legal opinions floating around as to whether it is illegal to breastfeed in public.

The press said that it in theory a mother could be charged with indecency or a public order offence, so someone has given them that legal opinion, that it may be unlawful.

The blogger I referenced earlier and the government minister in her letter gave a legal opinion to say the opposite.

The law will only be clearer in England and Wales, when we have proper statute law, along the lines of the law in Scotland, or when we have case law.

For case law to do it, a mother will have to be arrested for simply breastfeeding in public, and the CPS bringing a prosecution. It is suggested on the blog, the CPS will not be doing so, so a woman being made to accept a police caution would do it, but in that case it would confirm that breastfeeding in public would be illegal. If that would occur, given government policy, there would have to be emergency legislation. However this may come too late for the woman who may have been forced to sign the sex offenders register loosing her baby to social services in the process.

BTW is there anyone here with a working knowledge of the SS? Would they take a baby away because the mother had been made to sign the sex offenders register?

How likely is that scenario?

Not as far fetched as one would like (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1503589/Mothers-breast-feeding-crime.html):shocked:

[KawaiiSakura1]

Originally posted by Sticks
Originally posted by KawaiiSakura1
i hate Breastfeeding:bored:. no way will be Breastfeeding my baby when i have one. I'm to young to have one now:spin:

But according to the experts, it gives many benefits for both mother and child, and also is free. i don't give a s***t what the experts say i'm not doing it

[Sticks]

Out of interest, what was the nature of your objection?

[KawaiiSakura1]

Originally posted by Sticks
Out of interest, what was the nature of your objection? It dosen't make any difference at all, my sister's baby was breast feed and he's not even one yet but he's had chickenpox and bronchitis even before he was six month's old so much for protecting you from infection.And women should not be made to feel like a bad mother if they don't want to do it.

[bigbr0ther]

Originally posted by Sticks
Originally posted by bigbr0ther
Hey, Gazbo, do you like to eat your meals in a bathroom?

I am afraid that the counter argument to this is, "Well me eating in public is not illegal"

This is the problem I have been stating, the law.

I know from other posts that you are pro-breastfeeding so you should tell whoever made this argument that it is appeal to authority, a logical fallacy, and thus not valid.

[bigbr0ther]

Originally posted by KawaiiSakura1
Originally posted by Sticks
Originally posted by KawaiiSakura1
i hate Breastfeeding:bored:. no way will be Breastfeeding my baby when i have one. I'm to young to have one now:spin:

But according to the experts, it gives many benefits for both mother and child, and also is free. i don't give a s***t what the experts say i'm not doing it

Why not babe? Breastfeeding reduces your baby's risks of cancer and diabetes later in life and nurtures a healthy bond between you and him/her.

[Sticks]

Originally posted by KawaiiSakura1
It dosen't make any difference at all, my sister's baby was breast feed and he's not even one yet but he's had chickenpox and bronchitis even before he was six month's old so much for protecting you from infection.And women should not be made to feel like a bad mother if they don't want to do it.


I was not trying to pass judgement, sorry if I came across that way, I do realise that for some this is not an option. There is a couple in our church who have had a new baby and that is the position.

What I was getting at, is that you have an aversion to this, and wondered what were the reasons? Did your sister have a bad experience?

[bigbr0ther]

:cat:

^^ It's hello kitty!

:love:

[Sticks]

Originally posted by bigbr0ther
:cat:

^^ It's hello kitty!

:love:

Que? :conf2:

can we get back on topic?

[Sticks]

Yesterday I was in McDonalds and was speaking to a worker there about what happened in Bournemouth. (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1036330/McDonalds-apologises-group-mothers-staged-sit-breast-feeding-ban.html) They had not heard of the incident, but were aware of McDonald's pro-breastfeeding policy. I did think that after what had happened in Bournemouth, the corporate would have sent out some memo to remind staff, just so no one make that error again. They missed a golden opportunity.

[pinkmichk]

if a mother wants to breastfeed in public then there shouldnt be no issue its not like a mother is sat there with all on show and surely discreetly feeding a child is far better than a screaming baby
i know lots of mothers who have breastfeed and they all do it discreetly so it looks purely like they are giving their child a hug or they use slings or cloths etc to cover
i am a mother but didnt breastfeed as for me its just not me (fair play to those who do it plus at the time i wanted other people to be able to feed my daughter)
it has not affected our bond in the slightest we are incredibly close plus she is ahead for her age in almost everything which supposedly isnt supposed to be the case for bottle feed children
i think its actually ridculus that this is even up for discussion

[Sticks]

Originally posted by pinkmichk
if a mother wants to breastfeed in public then there shouldnt be no issue its not like a mother is sat there with all on show and surely discreetly feeding a child is far better than a screaming baby

SNIP

Originally posted by pinkmichk
i think its actually ridculus that this is even up for discussion

I am sympathetic to this, and I have witnessed at least two breastfeed in my presence.

It is an issue because there are still some who believe it should be banned in public and there are those who say it should be allowed.

I believe it should be allowed, and we should have the same legislation as they have in Scotland. I am not certain that it is not unlawful to breastfeed in public.

I have given links to blogs that says it is perfectly legal and even a statement by a government minister, but I am not sure that a government minister can deem something legal. The SDA 1975 has been cited as well as further anti-discrimination legislation, but these are civil laws, as far as I am aware, what counts is the criminal law, indeceny legislation and public order legislation.

The press said a mother could be charged under either. The blog and the Minister says that is not so with indeceny, but is that correct or is that just a legal opinion. This was why earlier I would like to see what happens if a mother discretely breastfeeding is arrested at least under those laws and possibly charged. Then we would see what the criminal law actually says

If she is let off, that sets a precedent one way, but if convicted, it should spur the government to bring in legislation to decriminalise it. In the case of a conviction, there may be a route through the Human Rights act, but that would be for the courts to decide.

[bigbr0ther]

http://www.gotopless.org/

Even though it's not about breastfeeding specifically, it's pretty much the same issue.

[Sticks]

Originally posted by bigbr0ther
http://www.gotopless.org/

Even though it's not about breastfeeding specifically, it's pretty much the same issue.

Thank you for that I think :conf2: though if you want to discuss the issue raised in that website, best to start a new thread.

Back on topic

Today at another McDonalds I was talking to a member of staff and they told me that there was an incident where someone complained about a woman breastfeeding, and the complainers were told where to go. However she then said she told the woman a complaint had been made, even though she was not being told to stop. I did wonder if the mother should have been told as that could be seen as implied criticism of the mother.

[Tom]

Originally posted by Sticks
Originally posted by bigbr0ther
http://www.gotopless.org/

Even though it's not about breastfeeding specifically, it's pretty much the same issue.

Thank you for that I think :conf2: though if you want to discuss the issue raised in that website, best to start a new thread.

Back on topic

Today at another McDonalds I was talking to a member of staff and they told me that there was an incident where someone complained about a woman breastfeeding, and the complainers were told where to go. However she then said she told the woman a complaint had been made, even though she was not being told to stop. I did wonder if the mother should have been told as that could be seen as implied criticism of the mother.

But why should she be told to stop? If some people find someone in a cafe/restaurant have disgusting table manners and people complain, that person wouldn't be kicked out, spoken to or told to stop eating so why should a baby have to stop *eating*?

[Sticks]

I may not have been clear, the mother was not being reprimanded for breastfeeding at McDonalds, in fact the employee I spoke to was well aware of the pro-breastfeeding policy at McDonalds and was in favour of it, the mother was told that a complaint had been made, even if the complainers had been shown the door.

So the scenario is this

Woman discreetly breastfeeding

Another customer complains saying it is not appropriate.

The customers complaining are told in no uncertain terms that the store is in favour of breastfeeding, the mother will not be told to stop and if the complainers don't like it they can move.

So far so good

But should the mother be told someone objected?

[Sticks]

Originally posted by Tom
But why should she be told to stop? If some people find someone in a cafe/restaurant have disgusting table manners and people complain, that person wouldn't be kicked out, spoken to or told to stop eating so why should a baby have to stop *eating*?

I believe we are on the same side here, sort of.

I say sort of, because of the status of the law. If a mother breastfeeds in public, is she in breach of the criminal law?

Some say yes, like the various newspapers who reported on the Equality bill, others like the blogger and the minister, Barbara Follett MP say no.

Who is right?

Well that should be for parliament or the courts to decide.

The closest we got to an arrest was the 2005 case in Norwich when the police officer allegedly said to the breast feeding mother, "We can't do you for it" implying, they did want to do her for it.

I await either the first arrest to be made of a mother for breastfeeding an infant in a public place, to see how the courts decide and the fall out from that or preferably the enacting in the English law, the same legislation as they have in Scotland where it is a criminal offence to interfere with a woman breastfeeding.

The first option means a woman would have to be the proverbial sacrificial lamb, the second option would no one need suffer.

So perhaps it is time to lobby a few MP's to ensure the Equality Bill is passed and amended to remove the ridiculous six month upper limit.

[Sticks]

OK got more details on that incident at McDonalds from that employee

The guy who was the problem, was making rude gestures from what I heard and he was told to leave the woman alone. The woman was then told she was ok to feed her child, which is in accordance with McDonalds policy.

I did mention that I had wondered why McDonalds with it's declared pro policy did not have displayed the international breast feeding friendly symbol as it would avoid what happened in other McDonalds elsewhere, like Bournemouth and be good PR.

The view point from staff, seemed to be that although it is allowed, (corporate policy), they do not want to encourage it.

Is that the same as actively discouraging it - if so it does seem at variance with their stated policy

The female employee then kind of spoiled things by suggesting it would be easier if mothers bottle fed their babies as it would mean they would not have to expose themselves - Which mothers don't, I know because I once sat next to a mother feeding her son and she was very discrete I did point out, that the problem with botles is heating them up. This did seem like defeatest talk.

Anyway I have put my question to McDonalds about the symbol, and if they answer I will let you know.

[KawaiiSakura1]

Originally posted by bigbr0ther
Originally posted by KawaiiSakura1
Originally posted by Sticks
Originally posted by KawaiiSakura1
i hate Breastfeeding:bored:. no way will be Breastfeeding my baby when i have one. I'm to young to have one now:spin:

But according to the experts, it gives many benefits for both mother and child, and also is free. i don't give a s***t what the experts say i'm not doing it

Why not babe? Breastfeeding reduces your baby's risks of cancer and diabetes later in life and nurtures a healthy bond between you and him/her. I'm sister's baby was breast feed and he's not even one yet but he's had chickenpox and bronchitis two time even before he was six month's old

[KawaiiSakura1]

Breastfeeding at McDonalds? come on we all don't want to see someone's breasts why we are eating at mcdonalds

[Sticks]

Originally posted by KawaiiSakura1
Breastfeeding at McDonalds? come on we all don't want to see someone's breasts why we are eating at mcdonalds I actually feel like vomitting:yuk:

I once sat next to someone breastfeeding at a coffee shop, the way most mothers do it, they are mostly covered and it is discrete. You hardly see anything.

[KawaiiSakura1]

Originally posted by Sticks
Originally posted by KawaiiSakura1
Breastfeeding at McDonalds? come on we all don't want to see someone's breasts why we are eating at mcdonalds I actually feel like vomitting:yuk:

I once sat next to someone breastfeeding at a coffee shop, the way most mothers do it, they are mostly covered and it is discrete. You hardly see anything. mostly covered up is not covered up:rolleyes:

[Sticks]

This is a feature on the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/mediaselector/check/player/nol/newsid_7000000/newsid_7007600?redirect=7007680.stm&news=1&nbwm=1&nbram=1&bbwm=1&bbram=1&asb=1)

Can you see anything?

[Sticks]

And this other BBC report (http://www.bbc.co.uk/mediaselector/check/player/nol/newsid_6650000/newsid_6654400?redirect=6654453.stm&news=1&nbwm=1&nbram=1&bbwm=1&bbram=1&asb=1)

[KawaiiSakura1]

Originally posted by Sticks
And this other BBC report (http://www.bbc.co.uk/mediaselector/check/player/nol/newsid_6650000/newsid_6654400?redirect=6654453.stm&news=1&nbwm=1&nbram=1&bbwm=1&bbram=1&asb=1) people don't have to do this there is such a thing as expressing the milk:rolleyes:

[Sophii3x]

It's natural, I have no problem with it whatsover. The baby has to be fed, and should be fed wherever the mother decides. My sister breastfed her baby a few months ago at a restaurant and she got so uncomfortable at the people staring at her that she nearly left, ridiculous.

[NettoSuperstar!]

Originally posted by Gazbo
Its a tricky one. I think I'm against it for the same reason I'm against topless sunbathing in public places because it can bring up questions in younger children that the parents won't be able to answer. But I see not much wrong with doing it in a bathroom.

lol err wot kind of questions? shouldnt parents be open about natural things? Is it dirty to breastfeed?

[bigbr0ther]

Originally posted by KawaiiSakura1
Originally posted by bigbr0ther
Originally posted by KawaiiSakura1
Originally posted by Sticks
Originally posted by KawaiiSakura1
i hate Breastfeeding:bored:. no way will be Breastfeeding my baby when i have one. I'm to young to have one now:spin:

But according to the experts, it gives many benefits for both mother and child, and also is free. i don't give a s***t what the experts say i'm not doing it

Why not babe? Breastfeeding reduces your baby's risks of cancer and diabetes later in life and nurtures a healthy bond between you and him/her. I'm sister's baby was breast feed and he's not even one yet but he's had chickenpox and bronchitis two time even before he was six month's old

Has he had cancer or diabetes?


Didn't think so.

[Ruth]

Originally posted by KawaiiSakura1
Breastfeeding at McDonalds? come on we all don't want to see someone's breasts why we are eating at mcdonalds

Breat milk is much better for the baby than the disgusting stuff they serve at MacDonalds.

For what it's worth, I see no problem with it. It's perfectly natural, and while I understand that you don't like it, you haven't actually given any reason as to why. Surely if you had a baby, you would want to give them the best possible start in life, wouldn't you?

[Ruth]

Originally posted by KawaiiSakura1
i hate Breastfeeding:bored:. no way will be Breastfeeding my baby when i have one. I'm to young to have one now:spin:

It's the most natural thing in the world. What's your objection to it?

[KawaiiSakura1]

Originally posted by bigbr0ther
Originally posted by KawaiiSakura1
Originally posted by bigbr0ther
Originally posted by KawaiiSakura1
Originally posted by Sticks
Originally posted by KawaiiSakura1
i hate Breastfeeding:bored:. no way will be Breastfeeding my baby when i have one. I'm to young to have one now:spin:

But according to the experts, it gives many benefits for both mother and child, and also is free. i don't give a s***t what the experts say i'm not doing it

Why not babe? Breastfeeding reduces your baby's risks of cancer and diabetes later in life and nurtures a healthy bond between you and him/her. I'm sister's baby was breast feed and he's not even one yet but he's had chickenpox and bronchitis two time even before he was six month's old

Has he had cancer or diabetes?


Didn't think so. People only think breastfeeding is best because there being told it is in 5 years time if someone decides bottle feeding's best everyone will be doing that. As for bonding when is the baby going to bond with the father or dosen't that matter.

[KawaiiSakura1]

Originally posted by Ruth
Originally posted by KawaiiSakura1
Breastfeeding at McDonalds? come on we all don't want to see someone's breasts why we are eating at mcdonalds

Breat milk is much better for the baby than the disgusting stuff they serve at MacDonalds.

For what it's worth, I see no problem with it. It's perfectly natural, and while I understand that you don't like it, you haven't actually given any reason as to why. Surely if you had a baby, you would want to give them the best possible start in life, wouldn't you? No one can say what is best in 5 years time if someone decides babies who were breast feed are more at risk from being overweight which could happen if mums are in mcdonalds eating while breastfeeding.My point is you can breastfeed but if your going out just exspress milk and feed from a bottle. most mums bond with their babies no matter how they choose to feed them it's called love.

[NettoSuperstar!]

I would rather give my baby natural breastmilk (and did) than cows milk with added vitamins. Research is pretty conclusive that breast is best and I cant see that changing.

[KawaiiSakura1]

I'm getting ticked off with natural and people who are like a stuck record breastmilk is best breastmilk is best breastmilk is best breastmilk is best breastmilk is best is that all you pro breastmilk people say.

[NettoSuperstar!]

Originally posted by KawaiiSakura1
I'm getting ticked off with natural and people who are like a stuck record breastmilk is best breastmilk is best breastmilk is best breastmilk is best breastmilk is best is that all you pro breastmilk people say.

yeah on a breastfeeding debate thread, beacause its true

[NettoSuperstar!]

Originally posted by KawaiiSakura1
I'm getting ticked off with natural and people who are like a stuck record breastmilk is best breastmilk is best breastmilk is best breastmilk is best breastmilk is best is that all you pro breastmilk people say.

you give your kids the bottle its your choice, its a free world.

[KawaiiSakura1]

Originally posted by bbE
Originally posted by KawaiiSakura1
I'm getting ticked off with natural and people who are like a stuck record breastmilk is best breastmilk is best breastmilk is best breastmilk is best breastmilk is best is that all you pro breastmilk people say.

yeah on a breastfeeding debate thread, beacause its true And how do you know its best:puzzled:

[NettoSuperstar!]

Originally posted by KawaiiSakura1
Originally posted by bbE
Originally posted by KawaiiSakura1
I'm getting ticked off with natural and people who are like a stuck record breastmilk is best breastmilk is best breastmilk is best breastmilk is best breastmilk is best is that all you pro breastmilk people say.

yeah on a breastfeeding debate thread, beacause its true And how do you know its best:puzzled:

because several long term studies say it is and it stands to bloody reason hmmmmm processed milk or natural mothers milk? you choose

[KawaiiSakura1]

Originally posted by bbE
Originally posted by KawaiiSakura1
I'm getting ticked off with natural and people who are like a stuck record breastmilk is best breastmilk is best breastmilk is best breastmilk is best breastmilk is best is that all you pro breastmilk people say.

you give your kids the bottle its your choice, its a free world. I know but i say i don't like i get people who are questioning me about it all the time and i hate it.

[KawaiiSakura1]

Originally posted by bbE
Originally posted by KawaiiSakura1
Originally posted by bbE
Originally posted by KawaiiSakura1
I'm getting ticked off with natural and people who are like a stuck record breastmilk is best breastmilk is best breastmilk is best breastmilk is best breastmilk is best is that all you pro breastmilk people say.

yeah on a breastfeeding debate thread, beacause its true And how do you know its best:puzzled:

because several long term studies say it is and it stands to bl***y reason hmmmmm processed milk or natural mothers milk? you choose processed milk for me:hugesmile:

[NettoSuperstar!]

Originally posted by KawaiiSakura1
Originally posted by bbE
Originally posted by KawaiiSakura1
I'm getting ticked off with natural and people who are like a stuck record breastmilk is best breastmilk is best breastmilk is best breastmilk is best breastmilk is best is that all you pro breastmilk people say.

you give your kids the bottle its your choice, its a free world. I know but i say i don't like i get people who are questioning me about it all the time and i hate it.

well ignore them! Its a matter of choice. personally I chose to breast feed as it makes sense that it will be full of the mothers natural antibodies etc aswell as the research. I only did it for a few months though, partly because this country is pants and you feel like you cant breastfeed in PUBLIC which is very sad. Noone bats an eyelid on the continent its the norm.

[Sticks]

We are in danger of going off topic

Rather than the merits of breast versus bottle, it was about breast feeding in public.

Should it be allowed or not?

What should happen to those who try and intervene?

[Sticks]

Yesterday I was at Caffé Nero in South Gosforth and I spotted a woman with her husband or partner, and she was breastfeeding. I did not say anything, and as far as I am aware nobody complained. She was in an alcove behind the counter on the way to the back where the toilets are.
There were other children in the vicinity of that alcove

My understanding is that this branch has more mothers and children than other branches

I do not think anyone there was complaining, but then is that coffee shop culture?

Apart from Costa coffee that is (Allegedly)

[M X]

I don't see the problem. It's a natural thing.

[Sticks]

Originally posted by TheMichaelO
I don't see the problem. It's a natural thing.

For the record - Neither do I

My Costa reference is to this story (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2008/04/21/costa-coffee-apologises-to-young-mum-for-throwing-her-out-for-breastfeeding-89520-20390186/)

[Sticks]

Oops

Forgot to add

The problem is that there are disputed claims, that breastfeeding in public may be unlawful, in England. (See earlier postings for links)

Earlier this year the national newspapers stated that a woman could be charged under indecency legislation or public order offences. Later a government minister issued a letter to various editors saying


Some people also think that women can be charged with indecency for breastfeeding in a public place. This is, I am glad to say, utter nonsense and completely wrong.


I am not sure if that is a statement of law, or a legal opinion, they are not always the same thing. Even if the indecency bit is right, we are still left with public order offences, according to the press.

What we need in England is a law like that passed in Scotland, banning people from interfering with a mother who is breastfeeding.

As I have said before in this thread, if the equality law is not brought in, what we need is a prosecution of a mother for just breastfeeding in public, almost along the lines of Margaret Boyle-White (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2005/11/22/cops-swoop-on-breast-feed-mum-115875-16397866/). If the mother is acquitted then we have case law on our side, and if convicted, it will clarify the law and may force the government to legislate to decriminalise it, (Which a conviction would of course do)

It goes without saying that the first option, the equalities bill is more preferable, as the second one could mean the SS getting involved.

[Fom]

I think the women should respect the public around her, as long as she isnt flashing her boob out to everyone then its no problem... does it take that much to put a coat over or a pashmina or something. Even a quick trip to the toilets, but just popping it out infront of everyone is a bit rude and distasteful.

[Sticks]

I may have posted this, but this appears to be referencing a legal clarification (http://www.babiesnappies.co.uk/breastfeeding-in-public-the-laws-made-clear/) indicating that:



There is not, and never has been, any law that prohibits a woman from breastfeeding a child of any age in public, for example in a cafe.

[Sticks]

Originally posted by Fom
I think the women should respect the public around her, as long as she isnt flashing her boob out to everyone then its no problem... does it take that much to put a coat over or a pashmina or something. Even a quick trip to the toilets, but just popping it out infront of everyone is a bit rude and distasteful.

Actually they do not "flash" and are discrete

[Sticks]

There is an article in our local newspaper (http://www.journallive.co.uk/north-east-news/todays-news/2007/10/03/calendar-features-a-good-feed-every-day-61634-19884846/) about a calendar



AN enterprising group of North-East mothers is following in the footsteps of the Women’s Institute’s Calendar Girls.
Andrea Shemilt with baby Ottilie, who is raising awareness of breast feeding.

Mums from Newcastle have produced a 2008 calendar featuring photographs of themselves breast-feeding in unusual places.

The calendar shows mothers nursing their children in various places and situations from reading the latest Harry Potter novel to holidaying in Scandinavia.

Calendar coordinator Andrea Shemilt, of Benwell, said: “The Calendar Girls did a photo shoot and made it humorous.

“We want this to be fun but we took our own pictures. I wanted to show the freedoms that breast-feeding affords.”

She said the aim was to raise money for newly formed group The Breast-feeding Advocacy and Peer support (BAPS) made up of Newcastle mums and support workers.


It looks like someone had fun creating the name of the group in order to get the acronym

:blush:

Details on getting this calendar can be found on this website (http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/shemilt/breastfeeding_Newcastle.html)

[Sticks]

That website has now added my favourite coffee shop :thumbs:

[matchfit]

does anyone know what the milk is like is it nice

[Sticks]

Originally posted by Sticks
I did mention that I had wondered why McDonalds with it's declared pro policy did not have displayed the international breast feeding friendly symbol as it would avoid what happened in other McDonalds elsewhere, like Bournemouth and be good PR.

The view point from staff, seemed to be that although it is allowed, (corporate policy), they do not want to encourage it.

Is that the same as actively discouraging it - if so it does seem at variance with their stated policy

The female employee then kind of spoiled things by suggesting it would be easier if mothers bottle fed their babies as it would mean they would not have to expose themselves - Which mothers don't, I know because I once sat next to a mother feeding her son and she was very discrete I did point out, that the problem with botles is heating them up. This did seem like defeatest talk.

Anyway I have put my question to McDonalds about the symbol, and if they answer I will let you know.


As promised the official response (http://www.makeupyourownmind.co.uk/questions/16808?src=qa)




Firstly apologies for the delay in answering your question, the team has been very busy with all the questions that are pouring in and everybody is working hard to answer them all. At its heart, McDonald’s is a family restaurant that welcomes mothers that wish to breastfeed in any of its restaurants. Although the company does not display the international breastfeeding symbol this should not deter mothers from breastfeeding their children in the restaurant. If in the future you visit a McDonald’s restaurant that doesn’t make any customer comfortable about this natural practice, please contact the Customer Services team by phone on 08705 244 622, or email by using the 'Contact Us' link on www.mcdonalds.co.uk and the matter will be fully investigated.

[matchfit]

it's a thing everyone does it good to bring the kid close to mom

[ParentalAdvisory]

I breastfed my daughter. I was always discreet and never had any problems when I was out and about.

[Sticks]

The equalities bill should be coming up soon, anyone heard anything about the parlimentary timetable?

[Twilight]

Originally posted by KawaiiSakura1
Originally posted by Sticks
Originally posted by KawaiiSakura1
i hate Breastfeeding:bored:. no way will be Breastfeeding my baby when i have one. I'm to young to have one now:spin:

But according to the experts, it gives many benefits for both mother and child, and also is free. i don't give a s***t what the experts say i'm not doing it Omg ok guys KawaiiSakura1 is me before i forgot password

[Ninastar]

So you would rather let your baby not be as healthy as it can be then not breastfeed?

I agree it is disgusting but there is somethings you just have to do for others x

[WATERS]

I do it all the time.

[Dom:D]

Originally posted by WATERS
I do it all the time.
:joker:

[Twilight]

Originally posted by Ninastar
So you would rather let your baby not be as healthy as it can be then not breastfeed?

I agree it is disgusting but there is somethings you just have to do for others x Thing is though my nephew was breastfed and he gets ill alot so breastfeeding isn't has good has they make it out to be sadly

[Sticks]

Originally posted by Ninastar
I agree it is disgusting but there is somethings you just have to do for others x

Why do you say it is disgusting?



I think we are getting off topic here slightly.


It was about whether breastfeeding in public is allowed or even legal.

Some opinion, including a government minister says that it is. (Citations already given)

My thoughts were, until this is tested in court or parliament specifically legislates, this is just legal opinion rather than statement of law. Although some say the 1975 Sex discrimination act covers this.

[arista]

Well they can Breast Feed in front
of the MP Smiths beast of a husband
as his porn movies have stopped now
a good New Labour worker leaked the info.

[Harry!]

Its fine as long it is decrete imo.

[Sticks]

This issue has resurfaced in Nottingham (http://www.thisisnottingham.co.uk/homenews/Mum-told-stop-breastfeeding-pool/article-993133-detail/article.html)



WHEN Laura Whotton's 11-week-old son became hungry while her family were at John Carroll Leisure Centre in Radford she did the most natural thing in the world. She started breastfeeding him.
The 26-year-old, from Carrington, was by the side of the pool and both herself and little Joshua were wrapped in towels.
"There was nothing on show and it looked like I was just holding my baby," said Laura.
"People in bikinis were showing more skin and breast than I was."
However, that is not how the lifeguard on duty saw things.
He told Laura she could not feed by the poolside because it was a public area. He suggested she go to a private room instead.

[Sticks]

Further on this (http://www.thisisnottingham.co.uk/homenews/Council-change-breast-feeding-guidelines/article-999388-detail/article.html)



LEISURE centre staff will be given new guidelines after a mother complained she was asked to leave a pool while breast-feeding her son.
The Post reported how Laura Whotton, 26, from Carrington, was told she could not feed the boy at the poolside in the John Carroll Leisure Centre in Radford because it was a public area.
A city council spokeswoman later told the Post that breast-feeding breached its strict rule of no food and drink by the poolside.
But now David Trimble, the council's portfolio holder for leisure, culture and customers, has said: "I think we need to change this.
"We shouldn't be treating mothers the same as someone who's eating and drinking.

[arista]

Yes Poolside
no need to breast feed there.

[lily.]

There's a need to breastfeed wherever you are when the child is hungry.

Fact.

[Sticks]

The latest incident (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1253678/Young-mother-thrown-bus-accused-indecent-exposure-breastfeeding-baby.html)

A mother was accused of indecent exposure and thrown off a bus after breastfeeding her six-week-old baby.
Amy Wootten, 25, was travelling home when the driver stopped the bus and told her to stop feeding her daughter Emily.
When she objected, he threatened to call the police. He said another passenger had made a complaint about her behaviour and then ordered her out on to the pavement in the rain.

[WOMBAI]

Another story (http://www.portsmouth.co.uk/spare455/Breastfeeding-mother-is-thrown-out.2129356.jp)

Maybe it would be less hassle all round if mothers did this in the toilets:shrug:

How would you like to feed or be fed in the toilet?

[arista]

How would you like to feed or be fed in the toilet?


Yes Sticks has a Bible Attitude
so in the bogs for the women.

[WOMBAI]

Further on this (http://www.thisisnottingham.co.uk/homenews/Council-change-breast-feeding-guidelines/article-999388-detail/article.html)

Here, here. What is wrong with this prudish bunch? Breastfeeding is completely natural - why would anyone be offended by that? If they find it embarrassing - that is their problem!

I bet many of those objecting, particularly men, wouldn't object to some young stunner getting them out for the guys, yet they object to women using them for what nature intended them for, in front of them! Who cares what they think, frankly!

[arista]

Here, here. What is wrong with this prudish bunch? Breastfeeding is completely natural - why would anyone be offended by that? If they find it embarrassing - that is their problem!

I bet many of those objecting, particularly men, wouldn't object to some young stunner getting them out for the guys, yet they object to women using them for what nature intended them for, in front of them! Who cares what they think, frankly!



Having Sexual Intercourse is also Completely Natural,
but not to be done on a Bus.

[Crimson Dynamo]

anyone who objects to breastfeeding in public should be jailed for 6 months mandatory until they grow up.

after about a year the problem will miraculously have disappeared

[WOMBAI]

Having Sexual Intercourse is also Completely Natural,
but not to be done on a Bus.

You can't compare sexual intercourse to breastfeeding - that is ridiculous!

[Niamh.]

Maybe If the woman whips off her top completely and there's boobs all over the place it would be a bit much but generally speaking you would barley even be able to tell when a woman is breast feeding her baby, I wouldn't do it in public myself cos I personally wouldn't feel comfortable doing it but it is what your boobs are made for and it wouldn't bother me in the slightest if someone wanted to do it.

[Crimson Dynamo]

is the argument that rather than putting the mother and baby first in society that we should instead put the irrational feelings of prudes first?

[Crimson Dynamo]

Its a tricky one. I think I'm against it for the same reason I'm against topless sunbathing in public places because it can bring up questions in younger children that the parents won't be able to answer. But I see not much wrong with doing it in a bathroom.

For the life of me I cannot think of the question relating to breastfeeding that a single parent on God's earth could not answer?

apart from "Mum, what is the total expressed capacity of both breasts during one feeding session shown as centilitres?"

[Niamh.]

is the argument that rather than putting the mother and baby first in society that we should instead put the irrational feelings of prudes first?

seems so

[Twilight]

Yuk, i hate it when you get to see everything though. I was in KFC today and this woman just got her boobs out to start feeding her kid it wasn't pretty.
I was just like ew if ya gonna do it, try to make so that we can't see you boobs why were eating.

[CaraRawr]

I think it's okay in bathrooms/toilets/semi-private places like that but not out in the open and definately not in resteraunts etc.

[Niamh.]

I think it's okay in bathrooms/toilets/semi-private places like that but not out in the open and definately not in resteraunts etc.

It would be pretty gross to expect a mother to feed her baby in a smelly public toilet though, would you like it if you were made eat your lunch in a toilet?

[Crimson Dynamo]

I think it's okay in bathrooms/toilets/semi-private places like that but not out in the open and definately not in resteraunts etc.

unbelievable!

[CaraRawr]

It would be pretty gross to expect a mother to feed her baby in a smelly public toilet though, would you like it if you were made eat your lunch in a toilet?

that's a good point actually, i wasn't thinking like dirty ones out in the street, more ones inside resteraunts and that.

[Twilight]

I wouldn't expect them to go into a crappy public toilet.
Just don't go waveing you boobs in people faces when people are eating.

[Shasown]

Its a mutual respect thing, the woman shouldnt wave her paps about, and others should avoid looking for a quick flash of breast flesh.

You know you can always look away. I find not staring and drooling the best reaction.

[Niamh.]

I wouldn't expect them to go into a crappy public toilet.
Just don't go waveing you boobs in people faces when people are eating.

People usually don't wave there boobs around thought Emily, like I said previously, It can be done very discreetly and you would hardly even notice that that's what they were doing

[Niamh.]

that's a good point actually, i wasn't thinking like dirty ones out in the street, more ones inside resteraunts and that.

a toilet is a toilet though, people wee and poo in there, not the place for eating

[Twilight]

a toilet is a toilet though, people wee and poo in there, not the place for eating

Tbh the baby is eating from you, so its not like they are eating from the toilet LOL:P

[Niamh.]

Tbh the baby is eating from you, so its not like they are eating from the toilet LOL:P

Not eating from the toilet but in the toilet yes, it'd be like you getting a bag of chips and and sitting in a toilet and eating them, you mightn't mind doing that but I certainly would!

[Crimson Dynamo]

I think young people on Tibb (and beyond) cannot see a woman's breasts as anything other than a pair of.. titter.. boobs

This will change as they mature into adults

[Sticks]

How would you like to feed or be fed in the toilet?

You pick up on this post from 2008, but fail to notice my post immediately after that here (http://www.thisisbigbrother.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1151431&postcount=11) establishing context.

Originally posted by Sticks
Maybe it would be less hassle all round if mothers did this in the toilets:shrug:

Not that I am in favour of doing this, hence the :shrug: emoticon, but as store owners think they have to cater for the "majority" of their customers and don't want them "offended" that may be the only compromise, irrespective of what the law actually says.

Also you did not notice my later posts in support of mothers breastfeeding in public and I believe I have mentioned that what we ought to do is adopt into law in England and Wales the law in Scotland.

[Twilight]

I think young people on Tibb (and beyond) cannot see a woman's breasts as anything other than a pair of.. titter.. boobs

This will change as they mature into adults

I can, i just don't wanna see them when i'm trying to eat.

[Jack_]

Having Sexual Intercourse is also Completely Natural,
but not to be done on a Bus.

That should also be allowed.

On topic, it doesn't bother me. It's natural. It's a pair of tits. Let them get on with it.

[Crimson Dynamo]

I can, i just don't wanna see them when i'm trying to eat.

lol

I think you envisage a topless Mum with a naked baby

[Tom4784]

I believe in the philosophy of 'Don't like? Don't look'.

[Sophii3x]

I believe in the philosophy of 'Don't like? Don't look'.

This. I seriously can't stand people who moan about seeing mums breastfeed in public.. don't look then it's not that hard! There's no way a mother should have to feed a baby in toilets or go to somewhere more private to please other people.

[Vicky.]

I believe in the philosophy of 'Don't like? Don't look'.

Exactly.

I see a 50 stone man sitting in a restaurant with his buttcrack out, I find that disgusting....should I ask him to leave/make a scene/complain to the owner?

And those saying breastfeeding should be done in a toilet...its unhygienic. The baby could pick up all sorts of germs there, if you are that offended by seeing a pair of boobs...I take it you dont watch TV either?

[GypsyGoth]

I don't mind moms feeding their babies in public, it's natural.

[Twilight]

I don't make a scene or ask them the go,but its hard to keep you head down, or look the other way when eating you dinner with them right in front of you..

[Vicky.]

I don't make a scene or ask them the go,but its hard to keep you head down, or look the other way when eating you dinner with them right in front of you..

Would you prefer to sit and try to have a quiet meal with a baby screaming right infront of you?

[Twilight]

Would you prefer to sit and try to have a quiet meal with a baby screaming right infront of you?

Yeah tbh i would...
seeing some boobs puts me off my dinner.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Yeah tbh i would...
seeing some boobs puts me off my dinner.

then you have sexuality issues that you need to sort out.

[Vicky.]

then you have sexuality issues that you need to sort out.

Its quite rare I agree with you but this is spot on.

Its perfectly natural to breastfeed...and its only a boob...come on...

[Tom4784]

I don't make a scene or ask them the go,but its hard to keep you head down, or look the other way when eating you dinner with them right in front of you..

Unless they are thrusting it in your face it's quite easy to just not look at their general area for a few minutes if you're uncomfortable. I'd much rather that then screaming babies.

[Crimson Dynamo]

I would draw the line if say the child was above 10

[GypsyGoth]

I would draw the line if say the child was above 10

Or if there was a queque of people waiting to be next after the baby.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Or if there was a queque of people waiting to be next after the baby.

or if my milky coffee stopped off on route from the kitchen for a top up

[GypsyGoth]

or if my milky coffee stopped off on route from the kitchen for a top up

:shocked::laugh2:

[Crimson Dynamo]

http://www.whytraveltofrance.com/2007/06/09/human-breast-milk-cheese-made-in-france/

[Niamh.]

I don't make a scene or ask them the go,but its hard to keep you head down, or look the other way when eating you dinner with them right in front of you..

Emily I'm 31 years of age and in all those years of being on the planet I've never once seen a mother with her boobs hanging out all over the place feeding her baby, yes I've seen mothers breast feed but it is done so discreetly you really don't see anything at all infact you'd see more boobs walking down a city street on a Saturday night!

[Dr.Gonzo]

Emily I'm 31 years of age and in all those years of being on the planet I've never once seen a mother with her boobs hanging out all over the place feeding her baby, yes I've seen mothers breast feed but it is done so discreetly you really don't see anything at all infact you'd see more boobs walking down a city street on a Saturday night!

Yeh I agree, and believe me I've looked and looked and looked and I could hardly see a thing. Damn them!

[Twilight]

Well then your lucky aren't you, because i have,

[Niamh.]

Well then your lucky aren't you, because i have,

alright, well I can't argue with what you've seen but it is not the norm to be flashing boobs in peoples faces when breast feeding.

[Jords]

Ive never seen it happen I dont think?

[Enid]

Anything is better than a screaming baby.

If I was at a restaurant, I'd make sure I was sat at a table AWAY from children and babies.