Kabaa the cube shrine of Mecca is believed to be centre of the earth, then would you convert to Islam

[farhad]

Sorry, guys it not a popaganda, its science.:bigsmile:

[18] The Kaaba was thought to be at the center of the world, with the Gate of Heaven directly above it. The Kaaba marked the location where the divine world intersected with the mundane, and the embedded Black Stone was a further symbol of this as a meteorite that had fallen from the sky and linked heaven and earth.[19]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaaba

In the world map Mecca is in the centre of earth if you just google through. In astronomy book it says Ka'bah in Mecca was a meteorite that hit Earth.

[rayheartbliss]

funcky!

[SexualHeroics]

Originally posted by farhad
Sorry, guys it not a popaganda.:bigsmile:



Lauren edit: Your comment could be interpreted as being racist/ignorant of faiths

[Lauren]

Stop falsely claiming these things farhad, it's seriously getting on my wick. You have absolutely no respect for people of other faiths/no faith at all.

We've discussed this in U2U's and you NEVER answer any questions. If you even dare suggest I convert to Islam - at least provide a valid argument.

Incase you lost your mind since then and now, I shall remind you of a few of the points I brought forward to you.

How do you know the modern translation of the Qu'ran that states this, is the same as ancient arabic texts that are difficult to translate anyway?
Validity of these texts as being "ancient" in severe disrepute. How can YOU explain to me that the Qu'ran and other Islamic texts are actually from THAT long ago?
You state things as "scientific facts" which in itself is a severe oxymoron. There is no such thing as a SCIENTIFIC FACT. The very basis of science is the falsify something alternative explanations, not to PROVE on explanation.
Not to mention the fact your apparently science is severely flawed.
A lot of your arguments are just copied and pasted extracts from previous internet discussions. I have caught you out a number of times on this; either you're part of a converting movement, or you actually have nothing valid to say.

[Arneldo]

Originally posted by Lauren
Stop falsely claiming these things farhad, it's seriously getting on my wick. You have absolutely no respect for people of other faiths/no faith at all.

We've discussed this in U2U's and you NEVER answer any questions. If you even dare suggest I convert to Islam - at least provide a valid argument.

Incase you lost your mind since then and now, I shall remind you of a few of the points I brought forward to you.

How do you know the modern translation of the Qu'ran that states this, is the same as ancient arabic texts that are difficult to translate anyway?
Validity of these texts as being "ancient" in severe disrepute. How can YOU explain to me that the Qu'ran and other Islamic texts are actually from THAT long ago?
You state things as "scientific facts" which in itself is a severe oxymoron. There is no such thing as a SCIENTIFIC FACT. The very basis of science is the falsify something alternative explanations, not to PROVE on explanation.
Not to mention the fact your apparently science is severely flawed.
A lot of your arguments are just copied and pasted extracts from previous internet discussions. I have caught you out a number of times on this; either you're part of a converting movement, or you actually have nothing valid to say.

Completly off topic but I just have to ask - Lauren, who's the fitty in your sig? :laugh:

[Lauren]

Originally posted by Arneldo

Completly off topic but I just have to ask - Lauren, who's the fitty in your sig? :laugh:

Only the most gorgeous man known to Earth :lovedup: (His name is Penn Badgley, he plays Dan Humphrey in Gossip Girl :love:).

[Arneldo]

Originally posted by Lauren
Originally posted by Arneldo

Completly off topic but I just have to ask - Lauren, who's the fitty in your sig? :laugh:

Only the most gorgeous man known to Earth :lovedup: (His name is Penn Badgley, he plays Dan Humphrey in Gossip Girl :love:).

He does look good....I must start watching this show :laugh:

[farhad]

Originally posted by Lauren
Stop falsely claiming these things farhad, it's seriously getting on my wick. You have absolutely no respect for people of other faiths/no faith at all.

We've discussed this in U2U's and you NEVER answer any questions. If you even dare suggest I convert to Islam - at least provide a valid argument.

Incase you lost your mind since then and now, I shall remind you of a few of the points I brought forward to you.

How do you know the modern translation of the Qu'ran that states this, is the same as ancient arabic texts that are difficult to translate anyway?
Validity of these texts as being "ancient" in severe disrepute. How can YOU explain to me that the Qu'ran and other Islamic texts are actually from THAT long ago?
You state things as "scientific facts" which in itself is a severe oxymoron. There is no such thing as a SCIENTIFIC FACT. The very basis of science is the falsify something alternative explanations, not to PROVE on explanation.
Not to mention the fact your apparently science is severely flawed.
A lot of your arguments are just copied and pasted extracts from previous internet discussions. I have caught you out a number of times on this; either you're part of a converting movement, or you actually have nothing valid to say.

Kaba being the centre of earth and it is in astronomic books that Kabaa was also a meteorite that hit the earth, how is that a false claim?

In regards to science, watch the video footage of nobal prize winners non-muslim famous scientist have said after they read shocking verses from the Quran, such as Professor Kieth Moore.:bigsmile:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73EfykhtXsE&feature=related

You have absolutely no respect for people of other faiths/no faith at all.


I do respect of other faith as Quran tells muslims to respect people of other like people of the book.

[SexualHeroics]

Originally posted by SexualHeroics
Originally posted by farhad
Sorry, guys it not a popaganda.:bigsmile:



Lauren edit: Your comment could be interpreted as being racist/ignorant of faiths

How so? Mixing the word popadum with (typo) popaganda is not racist to anyone, the OP specified that India was the subject and popadums are a native native food. It was a good joke.

Anyone interpreting it as racist would have to be extremely ignorant and deluded and what many to refer to as "the problem".

[Lauren]

Originally posted by SexualHeroics
How so? Mixing the word popadum with propaganda is not racist to anyone, the OP specified that India was the subject abd popadums are a native native food. It was a good joke.

Anyone interperating it as racist would have to be extremely ignorant and deluded.

Where was India mentioned? At all?

[SexualHeroics]

Originally posted by Lauren
Originally posted by SexualHeroics
How so? Mixing the word popadum with propaganda is not racist to anyone, the OP specified that India was the subject abd popadums are a native native food. It was a good joke.

Anyone interperating it as racist would have to be extremely ignorant and deluded.

Where was India mentioned? At all?

Mecca. (Saudi Arabia actually but the native food thing still applies)

[Lauren]

Originally posted by SexualHeroics
Originally posted by Lauren
Originally posted by SexualHeroics
How so? Mixing the word popadum with propaganda is not racist to anyone, the OP specified that India was the subject abd popadums are a native native food. It was a good joke.

Anyone interperating it as racist would have to be extremely ignorant and deluded.

Where was India mentioned? At all?

Mecca.

That's Saudi Arabia. That's why your comment could have (and did) cause offence to someone.

The food thing doesn't apply anymore.

[Lauren]

Farhad - in response to you - there's only a small hand-picked selection of "scientists" backing the claim. But my point still stands - how do we know the translation from ancient Arabic predicted this? People (including scientists, theologians, philosophers etc) have admitted a lot of the Qu'ran was wrongly translated to fit in with modern thinking.

Also how do we know that the supposed "ancient arabic" text, WAS ancient?

(Same goes for the bible).

[SexualHeroics]

Originally posted by Lauren
Originally posted by SexualHeroics
Originally posted by Lauren
Originally posted by SexualHeroics
How so? Mixing the word popadum with propaganda is not racist to anyone, the OP specified that India was the subject abd popadums are a native native food. It was a good joke.

Anyone interperating it as racist would have to be extremely ignorant and deluded.

Where was India mentioned? At all?

Mecca. (Saudi Arabia actually but the food thing still applies)

That's Saudi Arabia. That's why your comment could have (and did) cause offence to someone.

It's not offensive though. The Saudi Arabians love a nice popadum. Maybe not strictly a native word but they still eat em. The joke still works.

[Lauren]

Originally posted by SexualHeroics

It's not offensive though. The Saudi Arabians love a nice popadum. Maybe not strictly native but they still eat em.

:bored: Someone took offence because you confused two cultures ill-founded. Back on topic now, please. If you want to continue this discussion, take it to U2U.

[farhad]

Originally posted by Lauren
Farhad - in response to you - there's only a small hand-picked selection of "scientists" backing the claim. But my point still stands - how do we know the translation from ancient Arabic predicted this? People (including scientists, theologians, philosophers etc) have admitted a lot of the Qu'ran was wrongly translated to fit in with modern thinking.

Also how do we know that the supposed "ancient arabic" text, WAS ancient?

(Same goes for the bible).

They are one of the greatest scientist, I give the list of their names that back the Quran as the word of God. Professor Keeth Moore acquired more information on embryology (which was hitherto not known to him) from the Qur'an.

Prof. Keith Moore had earlier authored the book, "The Developing Human". After acquiring new knowledge from the Qur'an, he wrote, in 1992, a new edition, (the 3rd edition of the same book) for which he got an award for the best medical book written by a single author.

This book has been translated into several major languages of the world and is used as a text book of embryology in the first year of medical studies.

The greatest Scientists testify to scientific Facts in Quran.

These are short parts of many interviews with the Prominent Scientists in the TV-Program (it is the Truth) which organized by the World Organization of scientific miracles in the Quran, which was broadcast on the Qatari- Television for more than three consecutive hours..

This Program was made during the Eighth international Medical Conference in Saudi Arabia and other scientific Conferences at that Time.

The Scientists who were interviewed during this conference are:

1) professeur keith Moore (USA)
is an eminent Specialist in world fame in surgery and embryology. this professor wrote Anatomy Book named (the Human Development). this book was considered as the best Anatomy Book in the world, written by only one author.

2)Professeur Van Bersoud (canada)
is a professor of Anatomy, pediatry, and obstetrics-gynaecology and sciences of the reproduction at the University Manitoba in Canada. He was there the president of the Department of anatomy during 16 years. He is very recognized in his field. He is the author or the editor of 22 handbooks and he published more than 181 scientific articles. In 1991, he received price more distinguished allotted in the field of the anatomy in Canada, the J.C.B., Great Price of the Canadian Association of the Anatomists.

3)Professeur Joe Leigh Simpson (USA)
is a president of the Department of obstetrics-gynaecology, professor of obstetrics-gynaecology, and professor of human and molecular genetics in Baylor College of Medicine, in Houston, Texas, the United States.

4)Professor Marshal Jhonson
is a professor highly skilled of anatomy and biology related to the development at the university Thomas Jefferson on Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, the United States.

5)Professeur Gerald C (USA)
is a director of program and lecturer of medical embryology at the cellular Department of biology of the Medical school from the Georgetown University in Washington, the United States.

6)Professeur Youchedi Kuzane (Japan)
is a professor highly skilled at the University of Tokyo with Hongo, Tokyo, Japan, and he was already a director of the national astronomical Observatory with Mitaka, Tokyo, Japan.

7)Professeur Tejatat Tejasen (Thailand)
is president of Autopsy Department in the University Chiang Mai in Thailand.. he was a senior of the Faculty of Medicine of the same university.
He embraced islam after reading the Quran

8)Professor William W. Hay (USA)
is a very known maritime scientist. He is a professor of geological sciences at the University of Colorado with Boulder, Colorado, the United States. Previously, he was the senior of Rosenstiel School of Marine and Atmospheric Science at the University from Miami in Miami, Florida, the United States.

9)Professor Alfred kroner (Germany)
is one of the world's renowned geologists. He is Professor of Geology and the Chairman of the Department of Geology at the Institute of Geosciences, Johannes Gutenberg University, Mainz, Germany.

[SexualHeroics]

Originally posted by Lauren
Originally posted by SexualHeroics

It's not offensive though. The Saudi Arabians love a nice popadum. Maybe not strictly native but they still eat em.

:bored: Someone took offence because you confused two cultures ill-founded. Back on topic now, please. If you want to continue this discussion, take it to U2U.

I got the countries mixed up, but not cultures, it's still a fair joke. Millions of Indians go to Mecca. I had to crow bar it in somehow, it wouldn't work with the Saudi word "fatir". You caught me out afterwards on saying the OP mentioned India (when he actually mentioned Saudi), but the joke is still OK, not offensive and it's a shame to see people pander to claimed offence at good humour. If I had known Mecca was Saudi and not India (always assumed it was Indian, but that's my ignorance coming in) I would have still crow barred in the joke for the sake of a good pun. No one was insulted initially.

[Lauren]

Farhad, again - I appreciate your reply but you're ignoring my points again.

I'll just copy and paste my previous point to stop me from paraphrasing them again.

"how do we know the translation from ancient Arabic predicted this? People (including scientists, theologians, philosophers etc) have admitted a lot of the Qu'ran was wrongly translated to fit in with modern thinking.

Also how do we know that the supposed "ancient arabic" text, WAS ancient?"

:thumbs:

[farhad]

Originally posted by SexualHeroics
Originally posted by Lauren
Originally posted by SexualHeroics

It's not offensive though. The Saudi Arabians love a nice popadum. Maybe not strictly native but they still eat em.

:bored: Someone took offence because you confused two cultures ill-founded. Back on topic now, please. If you want to continue this discussion, take it to U2U.

I got the countries mixed up but it's still a great joke. I had to crow bar it in somehow, it wouldn't work with the Saudi word "fatir". You caught me out on saying he mentioned Indian (when he actually mentioned Saudi), but the joke is still a good one, not offensive and it's a shame to see people pander to claimed offence at good humour. If I had known Mecca was Saudi and not India (always assumed it was Indian, but that's my ignorance coming in) I would have still crow barred in the joke for good pun. No one was insulted.

Mecca isn't in India, Mecca is in Sadie Arabia, the holy place of Islam where people go for pilgrimage.

To go to heaven I think everyone should go to Mecca as the gates of heaven is directly above it, and this is where God lives in heaven, and muslim call Kabaa the house of God.

[farhad]

Originally posted by Lauren
Farhad, again - I appreciate your reply but you're ignoring my points again.

I'll just copy and paste my previous point to stop me from paraphrasing them again.

"how do we know the translation from ancient Arabic predicted this? People (including scientists, theologians, philosophers etc) have admitted a lot of the Qu'ran was wrongly translated to fit in with modern thinking.

Also how do we know that the supposed "ancient arabic" text, WAS ancient?"

:thumbs:

I agree some parts was wrong mis-translated as translaters are not scientist, but there is no error in Quran in Arabic, which scientist have said this Lauren? Also the Big Bang in the Quran was translated in English before the dsicovery of it. The embryology where Quran described that the initial stages of an embryo looks like a leech was discovered after when the verses of the Quran was shown to Keeth moore. the book of Developing Human which got nobal prize was from the help of Quran & hadith.

[SexualHeroics]

Originally posted by farhad
Mecca isn't in India, Mecca is in Sadie Arabia, the holy place of Islam where people go for pilgrimage.


Millions of Indians pilgrimage there, don't they? I bet they pack a few popadums for the journey too. Infact Mecca's culture is considered Indian culture isn't it, aswell as parts of other cultures.

There's also a Mecca bingo, where lonely women and homosexual people make pilgrimages to, hoping to realise their dreams. Both are very popular.

[Lauren]

Originally posted by farhad
Originally posted by Lauren
Farhad, again - I appreciate your reply but you're ignoring my points again.

I'll just copy and paste my previous point to stop me from paraphrasing them again.

"how do we know the translation from ancient Arabic predicted this? People (including scientists, theologians, philosophers etc) have admitted a lot of the Qu'ran was wrongly translated to fit in with modern thinking.

Also how do we know that the supposed "ancient arabic" text, WAS ancient?"

:thumbs:

I agree some parts was wrong mis-translated as translaters are not scientist, but there is no error in Quran in Arabic, which scientist have said this Lauren? Also the Big Bang in the Quran was translated in English before the dsicovery of it.

No, I didn't mean there were errors in the arabic Qu'ran, but I meant how do we know that it's actually ancient?

[Sticks]

Spurious point but I thought the center of the Earth was a molten iron core.

It was true, many centuries ago that the Holy lands, especially Jerusalem were the centre of maps, but since October 1884 the prime meridian has been at Greenwich Royal Observatory, and of course the lattitude 0 is at the equater.

So Geographically how is this place the center of the Earth

If you want to talk about the cultural centre of Islam being this place in Mecca, I would have no problem with that. Please be specific with your terms.

As for the talking heads, apparently supporting Islam, how can we be sure this is not just Quote Mining.

[Tom]

Scientific 'facts' are not always right. And as Sticks has already said the centre of the Earth is the core.

There is no such thing as the centre of the Earth as you're trying to put it across. If anything its going to be the equator (horizontally) or the 'GMT line' (no idea what its called, but the vertical one anyway). The Earth is round and theres no way to determine where the middle is. I'll tell you what its like. Pick up a football or a marble or something, and find the centre. Now if you're going to use the argument that where the equator and 'GMT line' meet, then thats somewhere in Africa.

[farhad]

Originally posted by Sticks
Spurious point but I thought the center of the Earth was a molten iron core.

It was true, many centuries ago that the Holy lands, especially Jerusalem were the centre of maps, but since October 1884 the prime meridian has been at Greenwich Royal Observatory, and of course the lattitude 0 is at the equater.

So Geographically how is this place the center of the Earth

If you want to talk about the cultural centre of Islam being this place in Mecca, I would have no problem with that. Please be specific with your terms.

As for the talking heads, apparently supporting Islam, how can we be sure this is not just Quote Mining.

Ka'bah in Mecca was a meteorite that hit Earth, this is a fact, this is when dinosaurs became extinct.

[Tom]

Why do you keep going on about a meteorite? That proves nothing about it being in the centre of the Earth. Meteorites have hit other parts of the world as well, are they also the centre of the Earth?

[Very_Nayce]

Correct me if im wrong but dont we now accept that the earth is a sphere? And not flat? Therefore how could any point on its surface claim to be the center? Its like drawing a dot on a football with magic marker and calling it the center. Its not.

Sticks is right , the molten core is the center.

[farhad]

Originally posted by Lauren
You have absolutely no respect for people of other faiths/no faith at all.



Quran tells muslim not abuse Gods of other religion:

[6:108] Do not abuse the idols they set up beside GOD, lest they blaspheme and abuse GOD, out of ignorance. We have adorned the works of every group in their eyes. Ultimately, they return to their Lord, then He informs them of everything they had done.

This verse says to muslims do not make a mockery of God of other religions as this is in itself blaspheming against God/Allah.

[Very_Nayce]

...so the mecca is NOT at the center of the earth.


Right?

[Sticks]

We will grant that it is the centre of Islam on a metaphoric level

[Tom]

Originally posted by farhad
Originally posted by Lauren
You have absolutely no respect for people of other faiths/no faith at all.



Quran tells muslim not abuse Gods of other religion:

[6:108] Do not abuse the idols they set up beside GOD, lest they blaspheme and abuse GOD, out of ignorance. We have adorned the works of every group in their eyes. Ultimately, they return to their Lord, then He informs them of everything they had done.

This verse says to muslims do not make a mockery of God of other religions as this is in itself blaspheming against God/Allah.

The first commandment is 'Thou shalt have no other Gods before me' (Exodus 20), meaning do not worship any other God. So which religion is the "right" one to follow and which God should be worshipped? Religions are contradictory to eachother. Proof that they're non existent? Possibly.

[farhad]

Originally posted by Tom
Originally posted by farhad
Originally posted by Lauren
You have absolutely no respect for people of other faiths/no faith at all.



Quran tells muslim not abuse Gods of other religion:

[6:108] Do not abuse the idols they set up beside GOD, lest they blaspheme and abuse GOD, out of ignorance. We have adorned the works of every group in their eyes. Ultimately, they return to their Lord, then He informs them of everything they had done.

This verse says to muslims do not make a mockery of God of other religions as this is in itself blaspheming against God/Allah.

The first commandment is 'Thou shalt have no other Gods before me' (Exodus 20), meaning do not worship any other God. So which religion is the "right" one to follow and which God should be worshipped? Religions are contradictory to eachother. Proof that they're non existent? Possibly.

In Quran it give people free choice to practise their own faith, No coumpulsion in Islam is stated, any forced conversion with the sword is totally forbidden in Islam. The teaching should be passed peacefully, not brutally.

[Kore]

Religions were written by ancient men and have been passed on and modified generation by generation. Each Religion has its faults and bad points.

Religion gives people hope and faith, but also creates hatred and war.

Are we better without religion whatsover?

[farhad]

Originally posted by Kore
Religions were written by ancient men and have been passed on and modified generation by generation. Each Religion has its faults and bad points.

Religion gives people hope and faith, but also creates hatred and war.

Are we better without religion whatsover?

What on earth are you talking about, the quran has remained in its original form, any differences can be due to mis-translations and reading it out of context. Religion isn't the problem, the certain followers are.

[Lauren]

Originally posted by farhad
Originally posted by Kore
Religions were written by ancient men and have been passed on and modified generation by generation. Each Religion has its faults and bad points.

Religion gives people hope and faith, but also creates hatred and war.

Are we better without religion whatsover?

What on earth are you talking about, the quran has remained in its original form, any differences can be due to mis-translations and reading it out of context. Religion isn't the problem, the certain followers are.

How do you know it's remained in its original form? How do we know what the original form was?

Who am I to believe the Qu'ran was a text given to Mohammed by Gabriel? Couldn't that be a myth in itself?

Also, Kore is right. It's been translated so much that some words don't have modern translation and so things have been modified to fit in.

[Lauren]

Originally posted by Sticks
We will grant that it is the centre of Islam on a metaphoric level

Which isn't scientific, which abolishes farhads point alltogether.

[Sticks]

Originally posted by Lauren
Which isn't scientific, which abolishes farhads point alltogether.

Unless you count anthropology as a science, although you may have a point.

[Tom]

Originally posted by farhad
Originally posted by Tom
Originally posted by farhad
Originally posted by Lauren
You have absolutely no respect for people of other faiths/no faith at all.



Quran tells muslim not abuse Gods of other religion:

[6:108] Do not abuse the idols they set up beside GOD, lest they blaspheme and abuse GOD, out of ignorance. We have adorned the works of every group in their eyes. Ultimately, they return to their Lord, then He informs them of everything they had done.

This verse says to muslims do not make a mockery of God of other religions as this is in itself blaspheming against God/Allah.

The first commandment is 'Thou shalt have no other Gods before me' (Exodus 20), meaning do not worship any other God. So which religion is the "right" one to follow and which God should be worshipped? Religions are contradictory to eachother. Proof that they're non existent? Possibly.

In Quran it give people free choice to practise their own faith, No coumpulsion in Islam is stated, any forced conversion with the sword is totally forbidden in Islam. The teaching should be passed peacefully, not brutally.

Then again you are going against Allah. The amount of threads you make on here and the way you put your points across as 'facts' isn't teaching peacefully to me, its kind of brutal.

You're not a very good follower of this religion are you :thumbs:

[farhad]

Originally posted by Lauren
Originally posted by farhad
Originally posted by Kore
Religions were written by ancient men and have been passed on and modified generation by generation. Each Religion has its faults and bad points.

Religion gives people hope and faith, but also creates hatred and war.

Are we better without religion whatsover?

What on earth are you talking about, the quran has remained in its original form, any differences can be due to mis-translations and reading it out of context. Religion isn't the problem, the certain followers are.

How do you know it's remained in its original form? How do we know what the original form was?

Who am I to believe the Qu'ran was a text given to Mohammed by Gabriel? Couldn't that be a myth in itself?

Also, Kore is right. It's been translated so much that some words don't have modern translation and so things have been modified to fit in.

Its because everybody during Prophet's time memorised the verses by heart, and and everything the Prophet revealed was immediately written down by the companions.

[Lauren]

Originally posted by farhad

Its because everybody during Prophet's time memorised the verses by heart, and and everything the Prophet revealed was immediately written down by the companions.

Says who? Am I meant to just blindly accept that?

This, for me, is the biggest downfall for any religion.

[farhad]

Originally posted by Tom
Originally posted by farhad
Originally posted by Tom
Originally posted by farhad
Originally posted by Lauren
You have absolutely no respect for people of other faiths/no faith at all.



Quran tells muslim not abuse Gods of other religion:

[6:108] Do not abuse the idols they set up beside GOD, lest they blaspheme and abuse GOD, out of ignorance. We have adorned the works of every group in their eyes. Ultimately, they return to their Lord, then He informs them of everything they had done.

This verse says to muslims do not make a mockery of God of other religions as this is in itself blaspheming against God/Allah.

The first commandment is 'Thou shalt have no other Gods before me' (Exodus 20), meaning do not worship any other God. So which religion is the "right" one to follow and which God should be worshipped? Religions are contradictory to eachother. Proof that they're non existent? Possibly.

In Quran it give people free choice to practise their own faith, No coumpulsion in Islam is stated, any forced conversion with the sword is totally forbidden in Islam. The teaching should be passed peacefully, not brutally.

Then again you are going against Allah. The amount of threads you make on here and the way you put your points across as 'facts' isn't teaching peacefully to me, its kind of brutal.



My job as a muslim is to convey the truth, the message of God and Islam peacefully by inviting people into knowledge, but if people want to reject the truth then Quran gives them free choice as forced physical conversion is forbidden.

You're not a very good follower of this religion are you :thumbs:

I do follow my faith very well thankyou.

[Lauren]

Originally posted by farhad

My job as a muslim is to convey the truth, the message of God and Islam peacefully by inviting people into knowledge, but if people want to reject the truth then Quran gives them free choice as forced physical conversion is forbidden.


Ok, then I fully reject Islam as the truth. And the Qu'ran. So far I have not learned anything factual as to where it came from, or it's reliability or validity.

[farhad]

Originally posted by Lauren
Originally posted by farhad

Its because everybody during Prophet's time memorised the verses by heart, and and everything the Prophet revealed was immediately written down by the companions.

Says who? Am I meant to just blindly accept that?

This, for me, is the biggest downfall for any religion.

Its been proved many times, we got one of the copies of Quran book published back in late 6th century.

[Lauren]

Originally posted by farhad
Originally posted by Lauren
Originally posted by farhad

Its because everybody during Prophet's time memorised the verses by heart, and and everything the Prophet revealed was immediately written down by the companions.

Says who? Am I meant to just blindly accept that?

This, for me, is the biggest downfall for any religion.

Its been proved many times, we got one of the copies of Quran book published back in late 6th century.

With full valid truth that those writings are the Prophet Mohammed's messages to Gabriel? I accept it's impossible to prove, but this is why I shan't blindly believe it.

[farhad]

Originally posted by Lauren
Originally posted by farhad

My job as a muslim is to convey the truth, the message of God and Islam peacefully by inviting people into knowledge, but if people want to reject the truth then Quran gives them free choice as forced physical conversion is forbidden.


Ok, then I fully reject Islam as the truth. And the Qu'ran. So far I have not learned anything factual as to where it came from, or it's reliability or validity.

Thats entirely upto you if you want reject the creator after showing numerous miracles, as Quran says in 109 verse 1-6

Say, "O you unbelievers I do not worship what you worship, Nor do you worship what I worship. Nor will I ever worship what you worship, Nor will you ever worship what I worship, To you is your religion or your way, and to me is my religion."

.


.

[farhad]

Originally posted by Lauren
Originally posted by farhad

My job as a muslim is to convey the truth, the message of God and Islam peacefully by inviting people into knowledge, but if people want to reject the truth then Quran gives them free choice as forced physical conversion is forbidden.


Ok, then I fully reject Islam as the truth. And the Qu'ran. So far I have not learned anything factual as to where it came from, or it's reliability or validity.

This is a documentary which was shown on History channel on where quran came from, hope that helps.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qc1qtoNpN5g

[Sticks]

My concern is like Mormonism, Islam fall foul of Galatians 1:6-9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians%201:6-9%20;&version=9;) as another gospel.

Jesus claimed to be the Son of God, but Islam just has him down as another prophet.

[Charleystar]

Originally posted by farhad
This is a documentary which was shown on History channel on where quran came from, hope that helps.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qc1qtoNpN5g

thanx for that. very interesting documentary, and pretty informative

[SexualHeroics]

The truth is, the centre of the earth is where Hitler lives.

The earth is actually hollow and people have lived in it for thousands of years, atleast, on the inside surface. When Germany fell after the second world war Hitler and his closest henchmen escaped in a submarine under the Antarctic ice caps. He joined a subterranean master race with whom he now travels, inside UFOs through the centre of the hollow earth.

Evidence:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=0h1VqraZYZY&feature=related

[Tom]

Originally posted by farhad

My job as a muslim is to convey the truth, the message of God and Islam peacefully by inviting people into knowledge, but if people want to reject the truth then Quran gives them free choice as forced physical conversion is forbidden.

The Qur'an can't be taken as the truth. There is no conclusive evidence to suggest that, and there is no conclusive evidence to suggest any religion exists. You can't put forward the Qur'an as fact because it hasn't been proven to be correct. It just cheapens your whole argument. Quotes do not mean anything if they have not been proven to be valid. Again, this is showing evidence of brutal "teaching", not peaceful teaching. I say that because its as though you are trying to force your opinion upon us, not try and persuade us that your opinion is correct.

If forced physical conversation is forbidden, are there any "rules" against written conversation? I'm sure the internet and conversation over the internet counts as "physical" conversation, and you force us with many threads on Islam.

I do follow my faith very well thankyou.

You have contradicted yourself time and time again. You have said that such a thing is forbidden yet you've done it anyway. To me thats not a very good follower.

[farhad]

Originally posted by Sticks
My concern is like Mormonism, Islam fall foul of Galatians 1:6-9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians%201:6-9%20;&version=9;) as another gospel.

Jesus claimed to be the Son of God, but Islam just has him down as another prophet.

Just simple, worship 1 god and do not associate partners or physical body as God, Islam stands for pure monethism.:thumbs:

[farhad]

Originally posted by Tom

[quote]The Qur'an can't be taken as the truth. There is no conclusive evidence to suggest that, and there is no conclusive evidence to suggest any religion exists. You can't put forward the Qur'an as fact because it hasn't been proven to be correct. It just cheapens your whole argument. Quotes do not mean anything if they have not been proven to be valid. Again, this is showing evidence of brutal "teaching", not peaceful teaching. I say that because its as though you are trying to force your opinion upon us, not try and persuade us that your opinion is correct.

Albert Einsteins quote: Quran is not a book of algebra or geometry but is a collection of rules which guides human beings to the right way, the way which the greatest philosophers are unable to decline it. Try looking up where the thory of relativity actually came from. http://groups.msn.com/14masumeen/quraninsayingsofnonmoslemscholars.msnw




I do follow my faith very well thankyou.

You have contradicted yourself time and time again. You have said that such a thing is forbidden yet you've done it anyway. To me thats not a very good follower.

What did I do that is forbidden?

[Tom]

Albert Einsteins quote: Quran is not a book of algebra or geometry but is a collection of rules which guides human beings to the right way, the way which the greatest philosophers are unable to decline it. Try looking up where the thory of relativity actually came from. http://groups.msn.com/14masumeen/quraninsayingsofnonmoslemscholars.msnw


To me that doesn't mean anything. The roots of the theory could have influenced him. But if by your logic if something big comes about from a big public figure then that could be easily turned around onto another religion. Take the 10 commandments for example. Now adapt them into every day British law, and adapt them into our moral laws too. Just because something comes about from a religious scripture it does not mean the scripture is true.

What did I do that is forbidden?



Forced conversation is forbidden. Although it states physical conversation, in some way this could be interpreted as physical conversation because obviously the Qur'an was written before the invention of the internet.
You say that the Qur'an says that you should respect the beliefs and religion of others. Throughout your many threads on this topic you clearly have no respect for the religion of others and you believe that you are right all of the time which leads on to my next point.
The way in which you present your opinions is stupid. You present them as 'facts'. There is no consolidated proof that what you are saying is 'fact' and its all open to interpretation. My point is that you say the Qur'an says you must be peaceful in your teachings. However the way in which you display your opinion is very aggressive and forceful. Its almost as though you won't take suggestions from others, you won't try to explain things and you think you are correct despite criticisms that other people offer. You simply state something and back it up with a quote. There is no proof that these quotes are no more valid than quotes from other religious scriptures, but you continue to put them across as facts.


Another point that also shows you contradicting yourself is about translations. You keep reiterating a point that it has remained in its original form. What proof do you have for this? Also, you said this

Originally posted by farhad

... the quran has remained in its original form, any differences can be due to mis-translations ....

That part of the post in itself is contradictory. I haven't taken it out of context but there you are clearly saying that there have been mis translations when in the exact same post, and in many others, you have said it remains in its original form.

And also, just a very very small grammatical point which makes my opinion of you as someone who follows Islam go even lower, you would know that 'Quran' is grammatically incorrect and as a good follower you would know it is 'Qu'ran'.

[farhad]

To me that doesn't mean anything. The roots of the theory could have influenced him. But if by your logic if something big comes about from a big public figure then that could be easily turned around onto another religion. Take the 10 commandments for example. Now adapt them into every day British law, and adapt them into our moral laws too. Just because something comes about from a religious scripture it does not mean the scripture is true.
http://www.muslimheritage.com/topics/default.cfm?TaxonomyTypeID=18&TaxonomySubTypeID=78&TaxonomyThirdLevelID=233&ArticleID=383

If you try looking at the link, the man who came with the theory first was Al-kindi in the 9ths century, he got the idea from the quran and he used that theory to prove the existence of God much like Einstein did at the end of his career.:thumbs:


Forced conversation is forbidden. Although it states physical conversation, in some way this could be interpreted as physical conversation because obviously the Qur'an was written before the invention of the internet.
You say that the Qur'an says that you should respect the beliefs and religion of others. Throughout your many threads on this topic you clearly have no respect for the religion of others and you believe that you are right all of the time which leads on to my next point.
The way in which you present your opinions is stupid. You present them as 'facts'. There is no consolidated proof that what you are saying is 'fact' and its all open to interpretation. My point is that you say the Qur'an says you must be peaceful in your teachings. However the way in which you display your opinion is very aggressive and forceful. Its almost as though you won't take suggestions from others, you won't try to explain things and you think you are correct despite criticisms that other people offer. You simply state something and back it up with a quote. There is no proof that these quotes are no more valid than quotes from other religious scriptures, but you continue to put them across as facts.


I didn't criticise anyone or any religion.

Another point that also shows you contradicting yourself is about translations. You keep reiterating a point that it has remained in its original form. What proof do you have for this? Also, you said this


Gods word were revealed in arabic, in the sense my point was none of the arabic text have been changed, but the only slight problem is the some of translational errors by scholars in english as Arabic like any other language have words with many meanings.

That part of the post in itself is contradictory. I haven't taken it out of context but there you are clearly saying that there have been mis translations when in the exact same post, and in many others, you have said it remains in its original form.

And also, just a very very small grammatical point which makes my opinion of you as someone who follows Islam go even lower, you would know that 'Quran' is grammatically incorrect and as a good follower you would know it is 'Qu'ran'.

Quran grammitically inncorrect, are you sure you read the quran in arabic?

[Tom]

Originally posted by farhad
http://www.muslimheritage.com/topics/default.cfm?TaxonomyTypeID=18&TaxonomySubTypeID=78&TaxonomyThirdLevelID=233&ArticleID=383

If you try looking at the link, the man who came with the theory first was Al-kindi in the 9ths century, he got the idea from the quran and he used that theory to prove the existence of God much like Einstein did at the end of his career.:thumbs:

That still doesn't prove that the Qur'an is correct, it just shows it is influential which I am not disputing, but it is influential in the way that all religious texts are influential. And if you're going to base some of your 'facts' with backups from science, there is plenty of evidence suggesting [a] God does not exist.

I didn't criticise anyone or any religion.

Not directly you might not have, but you appear to not be able to acknowledge/accept that other religions also have answers and responses that are deemed adequate. You are not open to suggestions at all.

Gods word were revealed in arabic, in the sense my point was none of the arabic text have been changed, but the only slight problem is the some of translational errors by scholars in english as Arabic like any other language have words with many meanings.

You're still contradicting yourself. Make your mind up whether you think it is still in its original form. If you think there have been slight translational errors because words have many meanings in Arabic, then it is not in its original form. Why can't you grasp that concept?

Quran grammitically inncorrect, are you sure you read the quran in arabic?

Well obviously not because I can't read Arabic but I'm sure grammatical rules in Arabic are different to those in English, and we are having this discussion in English. Any good follower of any religion knows that one of the main rules when discussing religion is to write the relevant religious texts in the correct grammatical way for example 'the Bible' (hence the capital).

[farhad]

Originally posted by Tom

[quote]If forced physical conversation is forbidden, are there any "rules" against written conversation? I'm sure the internet and conversation over the internet counts as "physical" conversation, and you force us with many threads on Islam.



Yes in Islam there is no compulsion in religion (Chapter 2 verse 256) Mahatma Gandhi said by learning Quran, every body will achieve revelation secrets and religion knowledge. In Quran we don’t see anything which allows using obligation to change others religion. This sacred book says in the simplest way: “there is no obligation in religion.”

Basically Ghandi's manners, mercifulness, prosperity was highly inspired by the Quran, which in India they seem to hide.

[farhad]

Originally posted by Tom
[quote]
That still doesn't prove that the Qur'an is correct, it just shows it is influential which I am not disputing, but it is influential in the way that all religious texts are influential. And if you're going to base some of your 'facts' with backups from science, there is plenty of evidence suggesting [a] God does not exist.

Theory of relativity is a vital tool that revolutionised the mathamatics and Physics, thats down to the holy Quran for giving this idea which helped Einstein and Al-Kindi to develop it.


Furthermore what those most famous respected non-muslims have said, this includes Einstein, Ghandi.:bigsmile:


[quote]1) Albert Einstein (1979-1955): Quran is not a book of algebra or geometry but is a collection of rules which guides human beings to the right way, the way which the greatest philosophers are unable to decline it.



2) Will Dorant (born in 1885): Religious treatments in Quran contain worldly treatment too and all of its affairs are sent from Allah by revelation. Quran contains rules such as: good manners, healthiness, marriage, divorce, treatments with children and animals and slaves, commercials, politics, unlawful profit, debt, contracts, recommendations, industrial affairs, wealth, amercments and punishments and war and peace. Quran creates simple beliefs in simple souls, which are free from bad traditions and worship of idols. Quran has established principles of union discipline and social unity between Moslems.



3) Napoleon Bonaparte (1769-1721): Quran takes the responsibility of man prosperity alone. I hope it will not be too late that time which I can unite all the scholars of all the countries together and establish a monotone society based on principles of Quran only which will guide people to prosperity.



4) Gandhi (1869-1948): By learning Quran, every body will achieve revelation secrets and religion knowledge. In Quran we don’t see anything which allows using obligation to change others religion. This sacred book says in the simplest way: “there is no obligation in religion.”



5) Dr. Johan Wolfgang Von Goethe (German Poet): In 1832 said, for long years, priests prevented us understanding Quran realities and greatness of its bringer, but by improvement of sciences this book will take human attention to it and become axis of thoughts.



6) Lion Tolstue (Russian philosopher): Quran contains clear realties and tenets and human beings can utilize it generally.



7) Bernard Shaw (English philosopher): He foretells that Europe will accept religion and book of Mohammad (PBUH).



8) DR. Marks (1818-1883): Quran contains all divine messages, which exist in all sacred books for all nations. There are verses in Quran that relates to learning science and thinking and discussing and training and I confess that this firm book has corrected many of the man mistakes.



9) Dr Shebly Shommyel (1853-1917) (Special student of Darvin): Prophet of Islam took attentions of human being wisdom towards him by Quran eloquence and made them unconscious against his book.



10) Charles Francis (American professor): Bible is a book which no one knows in America but Quran is a book which every Moslim knows and it is not a lie. But it should be mentioned that being unaware of bible is a good luck for religion.



11) P.H Corbin (France contemporary Islam knower): If Mohammad (PBUH) thought was superstitious and Quran was not revelation, he never dared to invite man to science. No thought and no person has invited human beings to science as Mohammad did. As we see that it has talked about science 950 times.


the quotations which are mentioned above are very little because of the briefness of this article, it doesn't refer to all of them and suggest the researches to research references.

[Lauren]

Originally posted by farhad
Originally posted by Lauren
Originally posted by farhad

My job as a muslim is to convey the truth, the message of God and Islam peacefully by inviting people into knowledge, but if people want to reject the truth then Quran gives them free choice as forced physical conversion is forbidden.


Ok, then I fully reject Islam as the truth. And the Qu'ran. So far I have not learned anything factual as to where it came from, or it's reliability or validity.

Thats entirely upto you if you want reject the creator after showing numerous miracles, as Quran says in 109 verse 1-6

Say, "O you unbelievers I do not worship what you worship, Nor do you worship what I worship. Nor will I ever worship what you worship, Nor will you ever worship what I worship, To you is your religion or your way, and to me is my religion."

.


.

See farhad, this is why I say you have no respect for people having other faiths/no faith.

You argue your point well, but ultimately when someone chooses to reject it you almost say they've made the wrong decision completely.

As of yet, I've witnessed no "miracles".

I accept that you have a different faith to me completely, and I do not try and convert you otherwise.

I just wish that you'd stick to teaching rather than attempting to convert people.

[Tom]

Originally posted by farhad

Yes in Islam there is no compulsion in religion (Chapter 2 verse 256) Mahatma Gandhi said by learning Quran, every body will achieve revelation secrets and religion knowledge. In Quran we don’t see anything which allows using obligation to change others religion. This sacred book says in the simplest way: “there is no obligation in religion.”

Basically Ghandi's manners, mercifulness, prosperity was highly inspired by the Quran, which in India they seem to hide.

Thats completely irrelevant and you are straying well away from the point. The point is if the Qu'ran [in other words] states that you should respect the faith of others, you clearly aren't doing that because you are forcing your opinions onto us as though you are right. You are trying to convert us all to Islam forcefully by putting your points across and not expanding very well (IMO). When someone refutes your claims you make no attempt to argue against it but just stick another quote in and a brief explanation. You are basically telling them they are wrong, and you are right. One of the main rules of debate is put your opinions and 'evidence' across in a way which will persuade people to switch sides and have the same trail of thought. If all else fails then at least you have attempted. IMO you have lost all credibility because of the way you argue. You do not acknowledge those of a different faith who put points across and you just do the same point but from an Islam point of view. You don't attempt to argue against, you think your 'proof' (which isn't even conclusive) is enough to do that and it isn't. The bottom line is that when discussing religion, nobody is correct. Sorry about my rant but back to the point, you are straying away from the point to bring yet another quote from the Qu'ran and you are making no attempt whatsoever to persuade me you are right. You are just stating it as fact and expecting me to believe it, and trying to deflect your initial contradiction onto something else.

As for the quotes from big figures in history, to me they do not mean anything. They are merely opinions that are just as valid as your opinion, and in turn they are just as valid as my opinion. Just because they are known for being clever it doesn't mean their opinion is automatically more valid than anyone elses.

Oh and finally, you need to learn how to quote properly.

[farhad]

Originally posted by Kore
Religions were written by ancient men and have been passed on and modified generation by generation. Each Religion has its faults and bad points.

Religion gives people hope and faith, but also creates hatred and war.

Are we better without religion whatsover?

So you dont believe in God, you think the world was created out of nothing?

[Tom]

Originally posted by farhad
Originally posted by Kore
Religions were written by ancient men and have been passed on and modified generation by generation. Each Religion has its faults and bad points.

Religion gives people hope and faith, but also creates hatred and war.

Are we better without religion whatsover?

So you dont believe in God, you think the world was created out of nothing?

The big bang theory? You're normally one to jump on the scientific theories bandwagon. If God created the world where did he come from in the first place? There has to be a start to everything, he can't have always just been there. Then before the world was created there is nothing around except him. God is omnipotent which means he can do anything and create something out of nothing. However, if God can do anything, can be make a stone thats too heavy for him to lift?

[farhad]

Originally posted by Tom
Originally posted by farhad
Originally posted by Kore
Religions were written by ancient men and have been passed on and modified generation by generation. Each Religion has its faults and bad points.

Religion gives people hope and faith, but also creates hatred and war.

Are we better without religion whatsover?

So you dont believe in God, you think the world was created out of nothing?

The big bang theory? You're normally one to jump on the scientific theories bandwagon. If God created the world where did he come from in the first place? There has to be a start to everything, he can't have always just been there. Then before the world was created there is nothing around except him. God is omnipotent which means he can do anything and create something out of nothing. However, if God can do anything, can be make a stone thats too heavy for him to lift?

God is uncreated, and regarding Big bang muslims believed in it since Quran was revealed.

[Tom]

Could you just explain to me the creation theory in the Qu'ran because I'm not familiar with it. Its just out of curiosity, if its the big bang then where does God fit in?

[farhad]

Originally posted by Tom
Could you just explain to me the creation theory in the Qu'ran because I'm not familiar with it. Its just out of curiosity, if its the big bang then where does God fit in?

I have to get of to work so I dont have time to provide everything myslef, these might help, a scholar of Islam, Bible and various other religion a doctor he is quite well known.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6xtmz21jYs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-hO1uGGdcE&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFVDTdVychs&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PmxxuArndU&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8KD-OmIXQ-E&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUZlb7BKuD0&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAV15rTXqAM&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oe7Dg31Ha8s&feature=related

[farhad]

The mystery of iron where it came from in Quran as well as the hidden message on the verse number and chapter the iron was mentioned is astonishing. For example chapter 57 of Quran is titled "The Iron", it is scientifically discovered that the iron came down to form the earth's core, Quran total chapter is 114, and chapter 57 is the middle chapter of Quran (114). The Iron has 26 atoms, in Arabic Iron is translated in "Haddid", in Arabic each letter has a numerical value, if you add up the value of each letter of that word, it equals to 26. Furthermore Quran says Iron came from outerspace by a great force physically.
http://www.55a.net/firas/english/?id=179&page=show_det

[Sticks]

Iron is ONE atom with 26 protons, hence it's atomic number of 26

See here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron)

Please get something right :bored:

[farhad]

Originally posted by Sticks
Iron is ONE atom with 26 protons, hence it's atomic number of 26

See here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron)

Please get something right :bored:

Thats what I meant that it is 26 protons, and the word used in arabic for iron is Haddid, the numerical value for the word is 26, have you ever done Arabic numeral, and the chapter number of iron appears in Chapter 57, right in the middle as Quran consist of 114 chap. This chapter was place in the middle to describe the the hidden miracle, meaning the core.

[Tom]

What relevance the atomic number of iron and the numerical value for 26 (which is purely coincidence, all languages name things after other things like that, its nothing to do with Islam) have to do with proving where the centre of the Earth is? You're veering right off the argument and clutching at straws to show us you are right.

I can't be bothered watching the creation thing either, I just wanted a brief explanation not a few clips.

[farhad]

Originally posted by Tom

I can't be bothered watching the creation thing either, I just wanted a brief explanation not a few clips.

Ok, Science says Earth was born out of fire and initial stage of universe was in a gasous state (Quran describes it as cloud of smoke or the Vapour) and dust then water was formed and living things originated or made from water. Quran explains all of these elements, it describes the Big Bang, the gas and the expanding Universe.

Then Allah turned to the Universe when it was smoke (Gasous state), and said unto it and unto the earth: Come both of you, willingly or loth. They said: We come, obedient.
(Quran, 41:11)


Arabic word Sama has three meanings which is heaven, Universe and Sky (space). Because the earth and the heavens above (the sun, the moon, stars, planets, galaxies, etc.) have been formed from this same ‘smoke,’ we conclude that the earth and the heavens were one connected entity. Then out of this homogeneous ‘smoke,’ they formed and separated from each other. God has said in the Quran:

Big Bang
"Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens (heavens here refers to the sun, the moon, stars, planets, galaxies, etc.)) and the earth were of one piece, then We seperated them, and we made every living thing of water? Will they not then"believe?(21:30)

The verse says earth and all the other plannets and space which refers to heaven were of 1 mass and then was seperated which is known the Big Bang.

When the quran says "do not those who disbelieve see", this doesn't mean that humans were present to see this happen, this talks to the scientist who will later on discover this fact which already is stated in Quran.

Expanding universe

We have constructed the Universe with might (means with power known as "The Dark Energy"), and verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it.... " (Surah 51:47).

Sama as it has three meanings which is Sky, universe or heaven (also means Universe), this translation refers to universe which is expanding, then again the translators are not scientist and it was a very good guess when they translated this verse expanding before the discovery of it.

The arabic word used for expanding is Vasia (توسع). If you look at any Arabic dictionary, you will see that the literal meaning of the arabic word "vasia" is "to enlarge, to widen, vastness to expand.

Today it is known there is seven astmospheric layers which was only dscovered few decades ago.

"It is He Who created everything on the earth for you and then directed His attention up to heaven and arranged it into seven regular heavens. He has knowledge of all things."
(The Qur'an, 2:29)

Heaven (Sama) here is used twice in this verse one to refer to entire universe and the other to refer to sky layers. Hope this helps.:thumbs:

This describes the atmosphereic layer.

Dr. Alfred Kroner is one of the world’s renowned geologists. He is Professor of Geology and the Chairman of the Department of Geology at the Institute of Geosciences, Johannes Gutenberg University, Mainz, Germany. He said: “Thinking where Muhammad came from . . . I think it is almost impossible that he could have known about things like the common origin of the universe, because scientists have only found out within the last few years, with very complicated and advanced technological methods, that this is the case.”2 (To view the http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_b1aUT6roEc&feature=related video of this comment click here ). Also he said: “Somebody who did not know something about nuclear physics fourteen hundred years ago could not, I think, be in a position to find out from his own mind, for instance, that the earth and the heavens had the same origin.”

[Tom]

Thanks for the description, and for the PM as well.

Very interesting theory and interpretation there. Not much more I can say really but I don't think its conclusive evidence that the Qu'ran is right ...

(I wasn't looking to pick holes in it btw or refute it, I was just genuinely interested in what the Islam version of the creation story is)

[farhad]

Originally posted by Tom
Thanks for the description, and for the PM as well.

Very interesting theory and interpretation there. Not much more I can say really but I don't think its conclusive evidence that the Qu'ran is right ...

(I wasn't looking to pick holes in it btw or refute it, I was just genuinely interested in what the Islam version of the creation story is)

Your welcome, I think the best way to understand the Quran is by going to scholars and imam, as well as learning Arabic, arabics like english or French word can have many meanings.

[farhad]

What a totally contradictory documentary of the Quran on Cahnnel 4. The verses they read out mainly on women being treated inferior isn't true, I agree some contradictory passages may have been mis-trasnlated due to words with many meanings.

[Sticks]

Originally posted by farhad
What a totally contradictory documentary of the Quran on Cahnnel 4. The verses they read out mainly on women being treated inferior isn't true, I agree some contradictory passages may have been mis-trasnlated due to words with many meanings.

I actually found this interesting, although technally off topic if you want to start one about that programme. I had heard the one before about that sura that says, "If you doubt your woman, remove her to the bedchamber, admonish her and beat her soundly"

They had a woman trying to justify it by saying it was a rebellious woman who wanted to do what she wanted etc. But that still does not amealiorate the fact it was commanding a man to physically assault a woman.

Contrast that with 1 Peter 3:7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=67&chapter=3&verse=7&version=31&context=verse)



Husbands, in the same way be considerate as you live with your wives, and treat them with respect as the weaker partner and as heirs with you of the gracious gift of life, so that nothing will hinder your prayers.


and Ephesians 5:25 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%205:25;&version=31;)


Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her


The bit about female circumcision was disturbing, where that Imman was justifying it on the grounds it keeps the women pure and all of the women in England were adulterous because it had not been done, yet another islamic scholar said it was nothing to do with Islam


The bit about the programme I liked was the results of the non-islamic Quranic scholars and the study of the earliest Quran which showed that earlier translations not in the modern one, made more sense. e.g, 72 virgins become 72 grapes. It comes across as an indictment, that one of the German scholars was afraid to appear in person.

Well done Channel 4

[Lauren]

Originally posted by farhad
What a totally contradictory documentary of the Quran on Cahnnel 4. The verses they read out mainly on women being treated inferior isn't true, I agree some contradictory passages may have been mis-trasnlated due to words with many meanings.

I agree, they focussed on the bad.

But the fact that some bad exists within the Qu'ran (and it's not just how you interpret it... some of the lines in the Qu'ran cannot be interpreted in any other way) shows that it's claim to pure good is refutable?

About female circumcision - you cannot take the blame away from Islam for that. The Qu'ran has been the instigator of damning regimes (Ayatollah Khomeini, for example), just like Christianity has been the instigator to damning groups (Westboro Baptist Church, for example).

Why do people constantly tell me religion is for peace, yet I see it being used for bad?

I'm interested in both Sticks' and farhad's point on this, WITHOUT quoting religious texts, please.

(As you see, I didn't go for the sensationalist perspective of 'Religion is not peaceful because people bomb for their religion' etc - because I feel the Ayatollah's regime was much more lasting and representative of the Qu'ran interpretation).

[farhad]

I actually found this interesting, although technally off topic if you want to start one about that programme. I had heard the one before about that sura that says, "If you doubt your woman, remove her to the bedchamber, admonish her and beat her soundly"

Basically the verse that talks about beat the word has many meanings, the word could mean to go forth or leave them for a whole if they come to her senses. Basically the translation is flawed because Prophet Mohammed hasn't never beat his 11 wives, this is many of the sayings of Prophet Mohammed in authentic Hadith where he made this type of thing unlawful.


Hadith - Bukhari 8:68 (Volume 8, Book 73, Number 68), Narrated 'Abdullah bin Zam'a

The Prophet said, "How does anyone of you beat his wife as he beats the stallion camel and then he may embrace (sleep with) her?"
Narrated Mu'awiyah al-Qushayri: "I went to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) and asked him: What do you say (command) about our wives? He replied: Give them food what you have for yourself, and clothe them by which you clothe yourself, and do not beat them, and do not revile them. (Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 11, Marriage (Kitab Al-Nikah), Number 2139)"

Hadith - Dawud, Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin
Habibah daughter of Sahl was the wife of Thabit ibn Qays Shimmas. He beat her and broke some of her part. So she came to the Prophet (Peace and Blessings of Allah be upon him- PBUH) after morning, and complained to him against her husband. The Prophet called on Thabit ibn Qays and said (to him): Take a part of her property and separate yourself from her. He asked: Is that right, Apostle of Allah? He said: Yes. He said: I have given her two gardens of mine as a dower, and they are already in her possession. The Prophet said: Take them and separate yourself from her.


Narrated Mu'awiyah ibn Haydah: "I said: Apostle of Allah, how should we approach our wives and how should we leave them? He replied: Approach your wife when or how you will, give her (your wife) food when you take food, clothe when you clothe yourself, do not revile her face, and do not beat her. (Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 11, Marriage (Kitab Al-Nikah), Number 2138)"

Abu Huraira (Allah be pleased with him) reported Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) as saying: "He who believes in Allah and the Hereafter, if he witnesses any matter he should talk in good terms about it or keep quiet. Act kindly towards woman, for woman is created from a rib, and the most crooked part of the rib is its top. If you attempt to straighten it, you will break it, and if you leave it, its crookedness will remain there. So act kindly towards women. (Translation of Sahih Muslim, The Book of Marriage (Kitab Al-Nikah), Book 008, Number 3468)"

Contrast that with 1 Peter 3:7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=67&chapter=3&verse=7&version=31&context=verse)



Husbands, in the same way be considerate as you live with your wives, and treat them with respect as the weaker partner and as heirs with you of the gracious gift of life, so that nothing will hinder your prayers.


Wife needs respect no matter how they are, I agree some passages in the quran do contradict like the verse on killing was actually talking about a war battle called "Battle of Badr"where the Pagan tribes broke their peace treaty and were oppressing and killing the muslim, christians and jews in the land of Madina, I think C4 didn't do a great job on actually analysing the crontadictory passages. The verse that says do not take Jews and Chrisitians as friend should of been translated as do not take them as allies to cheat your own people or bribe, its talking about tribes not corresponding to everyone as a whole as Quran allows u marry and befriend people of the book.

and Ephesians 5:25 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%205:25;&version=31;)


Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her


I agree:thumbs:

The bit about female circumcision was disturbing, where that Imman was justifying it on the grounds it keeps the women pure and all of the women in England were adulterous because it had not been done, yet another islamic scholar said it was nothing to do with Islam

Basically this practise in that country was already practised before Islam came to existance.


The bit about the programme I liked was the results of the non-islamic Quranic scholars and the study of the earliest Quran which showed that earlier translations not in the modern one, made more sense. e.g, 72 virgins become 72 grapes. It comes across as an indictment, that one of the German scholars was afraid to appear in person.

Well done Channel 4

I did agree with some of that but not all of their translation.

[Tom]

Originally posted by farhad
What a totally contradictory documentary of the Quran on Cahnnel 4. The verses they read out mainly on women being treated inferior isn't true, I agree some contradictory passages may have been mis-trasnlated due to words with many meanings.

I don't think some have been mis-translated at all, some will have been but on the whole it won't have been. I believe it would be contradictory in its original form. All religious texts are.

[farhad]

Originally posted by Lauren
Originally posted by farhad
What a totally contradictory documentary of the Quran on Cahnnel 4. The verses they read out mainly on women being treated inferior isn't true, I agree some contradictory passages may have been mis-trasnlated due to words with many meanings.

I agree, they focussed on the bad.

But the fact that some bad exists within the Qu'ran (and it's not just how you interpret it... some of the lines in the Qu'ran cannot be interpreted in any other way) shows that it's claim to pure good is refutable?

About female circumcision - you cannot take the blame away from Islam for that. The Qu'ran has been the instigator of damning regimes (Ayatollah Khomeini, for example), just like Christianity has been the instigator to damning groups (Westboro Baptist Church, for example).

Why do people constantly tell me religion is for peace, yet I see it being used for bad?

I'm interested in both Sticks' and farhad's point on this, WITHOUT quoting religious texts, please.

(As you see, I didn't go for the sensationalist perspective of 'Religion is not peaceful because people bomb for their religion' etc - because I feel the Ayatollah's regime was much more lasting and representative of the Qu'ran interpretation).

I dont think any bad exist in Quran its mainly some passages were translated differently and some of them totally taken out of context like sword fight if you read the whole chapter doesn't nowhere refer to humanity as whole, it refersto the Pagan tribes that broke their treaty whole killed not just muslims but chrisitians and jews, Prophet mohammed came and gave equal rights to Jews and chrisitian that were living in the land, C4 isn't best place to learn about quran. to understand the Quran you need read the whole chapters, genetle mutation does exist, niether wife beating which contradicts the Prophets action and word on authentic sayings. What they did is they were talking about womens rights, and they didn't mention anything about inheritance, womens in Islam are not allowed to forced into marriage, their divorce right, financail obligation, according to statistic 1/3 women convert to islam, I'm sure if Islam treated women badly then why would they even convert?

[farhad]

Originally posted by Tom
Originally posted by farhad
What a totally contradictory documentary of the Quran on Cahnnel 4. The verses they read out mainly on women being treated inferior isn't true, I agree some contradictory passages may have been mis-trasnlated due to words with many meanings.

I don't think some have been mis-translated at all, some will have been but on the whole it won't have been. I believe it would be contradictory in its original form. All religious texts are.

It was contradictory, the verse they quoted doesn't fit the sayings and doings of Prophet mohammed, and in various places they made mistakes in translations like the sword verses, If they for example interviewed something like Dr Zakir naik he would of made mincemeat of them.

[Lauren]

Originally posted by farhad

It was contradictory, the verse they quoted doesn't fit the sayings and doings of Prophet mohammed, and in various places they made mistakes in translations like the sword verses, If they for example interviewed something like Dr Zakir naik he would of made mincemeat of them.

But the verses they did quote, exist - right?

[farhad]

Originally posted by Lauren
Originally posted by farhad

It was contradictory, the verse they quoted doesn't fit the sayings and doings of Prophet mohammed, and in various places they made mistakes in translations like the sword verses, If they for example interviewed something like Dr Zakir naik he would of made mincemeat of them.

But the verses they did quote, exist - right?

I explained in previous posts that many of the verse they quoted was totally out of context, for example the sword verse was in noway refer to every non-muslim. If you read the chapter and look into historical context it talks about during the new religion Islam, Pagans were worshipping idols, and they saw Islam as a threat to their trade business of their Idol gods. The tribes didn't like that, they then wanted exterminate prophet and his people for years, the tribe were also racist, they owned black slave which prophet freed those slave like Black bilal. In context God gave muslims permission to fight against them to defend themselves and kill them when you encounter war on the field, but if they surrender and ask for peace then give them peace and end the fight, this verse wasn't even quoted which was next verse before it spoke of killing. In the War prophet Mohammed told his army that only kill those army, but dont kill their womens, children, elderly people. If Prophet asked his people to kill everyone who doesn't convert then why did he Marry a chirisitian called Marry and a Jew who both of them repsected the prophet.

They didn't quote the full verse they quoted part of it to justify that Quran is aginst humanity, they also didn't quote the next verse which gives them the answer, they quoted verse Chapter 2:191, but not 2:192 and 490 which gives them the answers.

[2:191] You may kill those who wage war against you, and you may evict them whence they evicted you. Oppression is worse than murder. Do not fight them at the Sacred Masjid, unless they attack you therein. If they attack you, you may kill them. This is the just retribution for those disbelievers.

Next two verse says:

[2:192] If they refrain, then GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.

[2:193] You may also fight them to eliminate oppression, and to worship GOD freely. If they refrain, you shall not aggress; aggression is permitted only against the aggressors.

Hmm they didn't quote these.

Plus another chapter says:

[4:90] Exempted are those who join people with whom you have signed a peace treaty, and those who come to you wishing not to fight you, nor fight their relatives. Had GOD willed, He could have permitted them to fight against you. Therefore, if they leave you alone, refrain from fighting you, and offer you peace, then GOD gives you no excuse to fight them.

I hope people dont fall for this docmentary, the narrator isn't a scholar who give valid info about islam. Quran in noway tells Islam to kill innocent people niether the wife beating is totally against the sayings and action of prophet Mohammed.

[farhad]

Originally posted by Tom
Originally posted by farhad
What a totally contradictory documentary of the Quran on Cahnnel 4. The verses they read out mainly on women being treated inferior isn't true, I agree some contradictory passages may have been mis-trasnlated due to words with many meanings.

I don't think some have been mis-translated at all, some will have been but on the whole it won't have been. I believe it would be contradictory in its original form. All religious texts are.

What Channel 4 did is they cut and eiditted the verses to twist its real meaning. The Beating of wife is merily as mis-translation of the word Daraba. Daraba basically can mean to beat or to go forth to next step like divorce, "avoid them", "leave them". For example Prophet Mohammed forbade wife beating according to auhtentic hadith:

Hadith - Bukhari 8:68 (Volume 8, Book 73, Number 68), Narrated 'Abdullah bin Zam'a The Prophet said, "How does anyone of you beat his wife as he beats the stallion camel and then he may embrace (sleep with) her?"

Narrated Mu'awiyah al-Qushayri: "I went to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) and asked him: What do you say (command) about our wives? He replied: Give them food what you have for yourself, and clothe them by which you clothe yourself, and do not beat them, and do not revile them. (Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 11, Marriage (Kitab Al-Nikah), Number 2139)"

Further more the verse talks about a cruel wife not all women as it talks about cruel husband in other verses and what a women should do to her unrighteous husband.

[lolester]

farhead get with it
its not the center of the earth the earth is a circle so it has no center apart form the core.

and no it isnt the metor that wirped out the dinosaures that metrorite is scintificclty located in mexico,

and the quran is misleading and that is why there is teroistits becuse they miss read the quran

[Lauren]

Originally posted by lolester

and the quran is misleading and that is why there is teroistits becuse they miss read the quran

No.

Terrorists don't exist because of the Qu'ran. ISLAMIC terrorists exist first, and then use the Qu'ran to mislead/support their issues toward others.

As much as I disagree with religion, it does not cause the problems - it's just used as support for them. The issue is with human fallacy, not the religion itself.

Furthermore, terrorists is not a term associated with Islam. It's a completely independent phrase that exists outside both Islam, AND religion. For example, IRA terrorists.
Also, a lot of Spanish terrorism and Russian terrorism is a result of politics, not religion.

[andyman]

saudi arbia and iran are pumping out there verison of islam all over the world which is a shame coz its giving other muslims a bad name... But the saudis have the money to pump there islam everywhere.

[Sticks]

Originally posted by Lauren


Why do people constantly tell me religion is for peace, yet I see it being used for bad?

I'm interested in both Sticks' and farhad's point on this, WITHOUT quoting religious texts, please.

People have a tendency to do what they want to do out of selfish motives, and as justification will twist what ever scriptures they can.

One of the letters in the New Testament mentions this, but as Lauren does not want religious texts quoted, I won't give the citation.

[Lauren]

Originally posted by Sticks
Originally posted by Lauren


Why do people constantly tell me religion is for peace, yet I see it being used for bad?

I'm interested in both Sticks' and farhad's point on this, WITHOUT quoting religious texts, please.

People have a tendency to do what they want to do out of selfish motives, and as justification will twist what ever scriptures they can.

One of the letters in the New Testament mentions this, but as Lauren does not want religious texts quoted, I won't give the citation.

I do agree with you Sticks, relaying to all religions - religion does not cause evil, but evil justifies itself by using religion.

What confuses me is that some quotes are easy to twist, like the ones in the C4 documentary about the Qu'ran. Sure they were taken out of context, but they still exist?

[Tom]

Originally posted by Lauren

What confuses me is that some quotes are easy to twist, like the ones in the C4 documentary about the Qu'ran. Sure they were taken out of context, but they still exist?

Maybe they believe a bad quote is justified when in context so we can see all sides to it? In fairness, we can't really judge whether another religion is right or wrong because of their customs because our morals are different to theirs. Of course we can have an opinion but my point is I don't think we're in a completely valid position to condemn an action unless its clearly using religous texts and twisting it to justify evil.

[farhad]

Originally posted by Tom
Originally posted by Lauren

What confuses me is that some quotes are easy to twist, like the ones in the C4 documentary about the Qu'ran. Sure they were taken out of context, but they still exist?

Maybe they believe a bad quote is justified when in context so we can see all sides to it? In fairness, we can't really judge whether another religion is right or wrong because of their customs because our morals are different to theirs. Of course we can have an opinion but my point is I don't think we're in a completely valid position to condemn an action unless its clearly using religous texts and twisting it to justify evil.

They did quote it intetionally out of context such as they were quoting part of the verse and taking its meaning from there, if they quoted the full verse then the verse would of said Fight those who fight you and kill those who attack you but if they surrender and ask for peace then give them peace, this would of explained the entire meaning that its was referring self-defence, notice when they quoted a line they didn't present the verse showing on the book. This is a reason why channel4 want to portray and twist the real teachings of Islam. Such as female mutation is in no way is connected to Islam, there is no authentics sayings from Prophet or the Quran that female mutation should e carried. They picked this one bad apple from one community because the community was an Islamic state and mixed it with religion. Genitle mution in that state in africa was already present before Islam.

Notice they spoke of stoning and homosexuality but didn't present a direct quote from quran regarding this, this is because these things are not even mentioned.:tongue:

[farhad]

This is some of Islamic source on women taken from Hadeeth and Quran, also its not often mentioned but Racism was first abolished by Mohammed, and example is when he freed a Black slave called Bilal from his brutal owner, these are the main things that the media or the western society never teach people about islam.

Muhammad the Feminist

I wonder how many men and women nowadays can digest the idea of calling Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) a "feminist".

That is, a feminist in the sense of one who always stood for the rights of women. In fact, he was just that, though the term applied to the Prophet could sound a bit quaint or anachronistic.



In a cultural milieu where baby girls were buried alive and wives were treated no better than chattel, the Prophet courageously liberated them and raised their status to equal that of men.



Muslims see Muhammad as living up to his God-appointed mission as the final messenger of God, standing up like a titan towering above the barbaric influences of the time to become the spiritual leader of the whole Muslim nation in Arabia as well as everywhere else Islam reached.




"The most valuable thing in the world is a virtuous woman."
- Prophet Muhammad

Literally, he rose to the high standards of leadership set by his own tradition: He was humble enough to listen to the complaints of his people and always hastened to meet their needs.


To the weakest among the people, he was compassionate, and considering the condition of women in those days, he was very responsive to their thoughts, feelings, and needs. He was particularly gentle, kind, and considerate toward them.



In this respect, he was very much unlike some of his Companions.

Umar ibn Al-Khattab once said:

One day I went to the Prophet and saw him smiling. "May God make you smile forever, O Messenger of God," I said and asked why he was smiling. "I smile at those women. They were chatting in front of me before you came. When they heard your voice, they all vanished," he answered, still smiling. On hearing this answer, I raised my voice and told them, "O enemies of your own selves, you are scared of me, but you are not scared of the Messenger of God, and you do not show respect to him." On hearing that, the women said, "You [Umar] are hard-hearted and strict." (Al-Bukhari )

Twin Halves of Men



The Prophet always listened to women with consideration and compassion as he valued their views and opinions not only about affairs that specifically concerned them, but also about matters of wider significance.



It was because the Prophet gave such encouragement to women that there were well-known instances in early Muslim history of some of them freely speaking out for their rights.



Following the injunctions in the Qur'an, the Prophet gave women the right to education and freedom in matters related to marriage, divorce, and property rights.




"Women are your mothers, daughters, aunts."
- Prophet Muhammad
The Prophet described women as "the twin halves of men," which emphasized the idea that their role in society is complementary to that of men. He declared that "the most valuable thing in the world is a virtuous woman."


He taught his followers that it is God's commandment to treat women with gentleness and affection because, he said, "they are your mothers, daughters, aunts."



Women Are Not the Devil



One typical Western criticism of the Prophet is about his marriages. Compared to the Christian conception of Jesus as the "Son of God", Muhammad (peace be upon him) appears so down-to-earth and human.



If Christianity celebrates celibacy, Islam definitely celebrates marriage. And the final prophet, like the Old Testament prophets such as Abraham, Moses, and David, has proved through his own example that women do not defile men.



Indeed, Islamic spirituality is not weakened by the body, as it transcends far above the demands of the body. Also Islam, unlike Christianity, does not view the woman as the cause of the fall of man.



Respecting Mothers



The respect given to women as mothers is another aspect of "the Prophetic vision, in which kindness and loyalty to the mother, a rahmah (= mercy) to reciprocate the rahmah they themselves dispensed, is seen as an almost sacramental act" (Murad).



The Prophet said, "Paradise lies beneath the feet of mothers" (Ahmad).




"He always joined in household work and would at times mend his clothes, repair his shoes, and sweep the floor."
- Lady Aishah
Once a man came to Prophet Muhammad and asked, "O Messenger of God, which person of all the people is best entitled to kind treatment and good companionship from me?" He answered, "Your mother." The man asked, "And then?" He said, "Your mother."

The man asked again, "And after her?" He said, "Your mother." The man asked for a fourth time, "And after her?" The Prophet said, "Your father" (Al-Bukhari).

The Perfect Husband

The Prophet was a perfect model for humankind in every aspect of our life. He was the kindest husband and the most loving and caring partner to his wives.


"The best among you is the one who is best toward his wife"
- Prophet Muhammad
According to Aishah, the Prophet used to help his wives with domestic chores: "He always joined in household work and would at times mend his clothes, repair his shoes, and sweep the floor. He would milk, tether, and feed his animals and do the household shopping."
He taught his followers: "The best among you is the one who is best toward his wife" (At-Tirmidhi).

We should remember that those were the days when women were treated like slaves and were punished for the silliest mistakes. The Prophet stopped all that and gave women the rights equal to those of men.

For instance, Islam gave a wife the right to acquire and possess wealth and keep it for herself, and she had no responsibility to share the family expenses with her husband. And the husband had no legal right to any of her belongings.

The Plight of Women

In ancient times when a man died, his widow was often denied all rights to his property and she was subjected to terrible humiliation and maltreatment.


Islam believes that the one who works for widows and orphans is like one who strives in the way of God.


In certain societies, there was a tradition of immolation of the widow on the funeral pyre of her husband. Even if she was permitted to live, she was denied the right to remarry and lead a normal life.
But the Prophet himself set the example of marrying widows and divorcees; his first wife was Khadijah, a widow 15 years senior to him. And after her death, he married only widows and divorcees with the exception of Aishah.

Islam believes that the one who works for widows and orphans is like one who strives in the way of God. And we must remember that in those primitive times, a woman who did not have the support of a man was lost and ruined.

The Prophet's mercy toward women was not surprising, because Almighty God had appointed him as a mercy for the whole of creation.

A Revolutionary Man

In the Madinah society after the emigration of Muslims from Makkah established by the Prophet, women were guaranteed personal respect, the right to education, the right to enter into legal contracts, and the political right to express their views concerning public affairs.

They were also given the right to choose a husband of their liking and to reject a marriage they did not like. At the time of marriage, a woman is entitled to a suitable present (in Arabic: mahr) from her bridegroom, and she is declared free of all domestic financial responsibilities, which are the responsibility of the husband.


The husband is not to keep his wife in a state of suspense, whether at home or abroad, for a long period of time except with her consent.
It is the duty of the husband to provide his wife and children with food, clothes, a home, and medical treatment according to his financial position and income. Muslim scholars have said that if a man does not support his wife financially, then she is entitled to get a divorce.
The Prophet said that the best charity (in Arabic: sadaqah) is that spent on one's wife: forgiveness in the case of disagreement, good manners, sweet words, a smiling face, a pleasing playfulness, and an amusing mien are but some facets of this "charity."

The Prophet said, "The world is delightful, and its greatest treasure is a good woman" (Muslim).

The husband is not to stay away from his wife or keep his wife in a state of suspense, whether at home or abroad, for a long period of time except with her consent. Unreasonably long separation on the part of the husband without prior arrangement with the wife is sufficient grounds for her to obtain divorce through a judge.

Indeed, the Prophet allowed women to engage in suitable work for earning an income like men, so long as such jobs did not infringe on their dignity. He permitted them even to participate in battles: specifically to nurse the wounded soldiers and to fight alongside men.



All this was indeed revolutionary, considering the prevailing socio-cultural paradigms defining the Arabs of the time. So it was not surprising that so soon after the Prophet's time, the vestiges of the pre-Islamic era, traditions from pre-Islamic Arabia slowly returned and gained somewhat of a foothold among Muslims.



Consequently something of the misogyny that previously existed returned, which reminds us of the need for reaffirming the noble example of the Prophet, whose compassion to his wives, daughters, and women companions cannot be forgotten.

[andyman]

which kind of islam you follow? Many shades out there.

Refrain from using text speech

[farhad]

Originally posted by andyman
which kind of islam you follow? Many shades out there.

Refrain from using text speech

The true sayings and teachings of Quran in Suni version, Shia's and Wahbism are not factual. If western women want to know what rights Prophet mohammed gave to womens you would be suprised that these rights that are present now were layed out 14 centuries ago in a Desert of mecca.

For example:

1. Womens were given the choice to fight during war and nurse the wounded soldiers, when did this practise came to west?

2.The female killing was hugely practised around the world at that time, especially in Arabia, Prophet came and abolished these practise.

3.a married women is entitled to keep her maiden name.

4. The women can refuse or choose her own life partner.

5.Women were given the right to vote, I agree nowadays in Iran and Saudie this is stopped but thats not the sayings of prophet.

6.a Divorced women can remarry if she wishes, Prophet Mohammed married many times not for lust but to give security to widows and divorcees, and during this age women had to be dependant on their husbands and fathers. The women he married were twice as older than him, would a lustful man marry someone who is over 50 as the west accuse him of.

7.Womens were allowed to be political leaders, such as there are female Leader of head of state in many islamic country.

8.A woman is allowed to work in the society if she wishes and get equal pay as those of a man, and her earnings is kept to herself and the man has no access to it as it is his reponsibility to provide for the family.

These are some of those things when Channel 4 discussing womens rights totally ignored and focussed on a contradictory passage that goes against the authentic sayings of prophet Mohammed.

[andyman]

text speech? When? Show me? I never used any!!! LOL.

[andyman]

the sufi :spin2:

[andyman]

You support iran and saudi arbia with there version of islam that is spreading like wildfire into the minds of young muslims?

[farhad]

Originally posted by andyman
You support iran and saudi arbia with there version of islam that is spreading like wildfire into the minds of young muslims?

When did I say I supported Iran and Saudie, I said Saudie isn't the same country 14 centuries ago, and iran are shia's who give bad name to Islam, by the way 90% of muslim population are suni's, Shaia's and Wahabist account for 5% each.

[andyman]

still its saudi money building the islamic schools to teach there islam. Maybe we need more sufi :spin2:

[Lauren]

Originally posted by andyman
text speech? When? Show me? I never used any!!! LOL.

I edited it, you said "u".

[andyman]

OH MY GOD!

[farhad]

Originally posted by andyman
still its saudi money building the islamic schools to teach there islam. Maybe we need more sufi :spin2:

If you want to study the rel history of prophet I suggest you look at Sahi Bhukari Hadith which is loaded on Internet, the Wahabist and Shia's reject hadith, Suni's not all follow hadith. You will get a better understanding then what edia and those fanatics teach. There is this great part in the Hadith called "Manumission of Slaves". http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/046.sbt.html

[farhad]

These are another sayings of Prophet to show all those losers who say Islam treats women with inferior manner an gives no right, this is a man who came to Prophet and lied that his wife committed illegal adultry, prophet sussed him out and got her divorced to this man, the man asked if he could have the dowrys he gave to his wife back, and listen what Mohammed says.

Volume 7, Book 63, Number 261:
Narrated Said bin Jubair:

I said to Ibn 'Umar, "If a man accuses his wife of illegal sexual intercourse (what is the judgment)?" He said, "Allah's Prophet separated the couple of Bani 'Ajlan (when the husband accused his wife for an illegal sexual intercourse). The Prophet said, 'Allah knows that one of you two IS a liar; so will one of you repent?' But they refused. He then again said, 'Allah knows that one of you two is a liar; so will one of you repent?' But they refused, whereupon he separated them by divorce." Aiyub (a sub-narrator) said: 'Amr bin Dinar said to me, "In the narration there is something which I do not see you mentioning, i.e. the husband said, "What about my money (Mahr)?' The Prophet said, "You are not entitled to take back money, for if you told the truth you have already entered upon her (and consummated your marriage with her) and if you are a liar then you are less entitled to take it back.

[farhad]

The mistakes of translators of Holy Quran can be attributed to God, thats why Arabic txt should bought by non-muslims and muslims and the translation version
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ii_W4UtQzlM

[Matt10k]

"Kabaa the cube shrine of Mecca is believed to be centre of the earth, then would you convert to Islam"

Can you explain what you mean by this? It didn't make much sense to me :puzzled:

The centre of the earth, is the 'core':

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth%27s_Core

[Matt10k]

Originally posted by farhad
Ka'bah in Mecca was a meteorite that hit Earth, this is a fact, this is when dinosaurs became extinct.

This is NOT a fact. The meteorite that potentially wiped out the dinosaurs is thought to have hit the gulf of Mexico- though there are now many other theories as to how the dinosaurs could have died out including- climate change.

Also, even if a meteorite hit the earth, this doesn't make it the 'centre of the earth'. The centre of the earth is and always will be the core.

[Matt10k]

Originally posted by farhad
What a totally contradictory documentary of the Quran on Cahnnel 4. The verses they read out mainly on women being treated inferior isn't true, I agree some contradictory passages may have been mis-trasnlated due to words with many meanings.

You say it isn't true that women are "treated inferior" because of Islam, but this simply isn't true in all countries.

Here is the first part of a documentary showing how women are treated in Afganistan:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WrGFzkFSaU

[farhad]

Originally posted by Matt10k
Originally posted by farhad
Ka'bah in Mecca was a meteorite that hit Earth, this is a fact, this is when dinosaurs became extinct.

This is NOT a fact. The meteorite that potentially wiped out the dinosaurs is thought to have hit the gulf of Mexico- though there are now many other theories as to how the dinosaurs could have died out including- climate change.

Also, even if a meteorite hit the earth, this doesn't make it the 'centre of the earth'. The centre of the earth is and always will be the core.

I got that wrong about dinosaurs, I meant it was the first meteorite that hit earth, accroding to astronimical books.

[farhad]

Originally posted by Matt10k
Originally posted by farhad
What a totally contradictory documentary of the Quran on Cahnnel 4. The verses they read out mainly on women being treated inferior isn't true, I agree some contradictory passages may have been mis-trasnlated due to words with many meanings.

You say it isn't true that women are "treated inferior" because of Islam, but this simply isn't true in all countries.

Here is the first part of a documentary showing how women are treated in Afganistan:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WrGFzkFSaU

Afghanistan is a third world country and I agree they do treat women badly, but these are not the word of prophet, Prophet never said a women cant go to school or open their own business or work in the community, please do a bit more research on rights of women layed out by Prophet Mohammed. i dont blame them for not reciving proper teachings of Islam, the Prophet Mohammed who revolutionised the world even according many non-muslims such as Michael Hart in the book of most influential person in the history, Professor keeth moore, and many countries Islam was spread without any sword because of the teachings of mohammed they loved.

[Matt10k]

Originally posted by farhad
Afghanistan is a third world country and I agree they do treat women badly, but these are not the word of prophet, Prophet never said a women cant go to school or open their own business or work in the community, please do a bit more research on rights of women layed out by Prophet Mohammed. i dont blame them for not reciving proper teachings of Islam, the Prophet Mohammed who revolutionised the world even according many non-muslims such as Michael Hart in the book of most influential person in the history, Professor keeth moore, and many countries Islam was spread without any sword because of the teachings of mohammed they loved.

You said women were not 'treated inferior' and in the context of Islam- I was just telling you this isn't true. And it is irrelevant as to whether or not you personally, think they are following the "proper teachings" of Islam. They do believe they are acting in the name of Islam and it is that, that is causing the damage. And can I just point out that although Afghanistan is probably the worst offender- it isn’t the only Muslim country to treat women badly in the name of Islam.

Maybe you should do a bit of research on that before you make such blanket statements? It's not about the 'original teachings'- it is how they are interpreted by people.

[farhad]

Originally posted by Matt10k
Originally posted by farhad
Afghanistan is a third world country and I agree they do treat women badly, but these are not the word of prophet, Prophet never said a women cant go to school or open their own business or work in the community, please do a bit more research on rights of women layed out by Prophet Mohammed. i dont blame them for not reciving proper teachings of Islam, the Prophet Mohammed who revolutionised the world even according many non-muslims such as Michael Hart in the book of most influential person in the history, Professor keeth moore, and many countries Islam was spread without any sword because of the teachings of mohammed they loved.

You said women were not 'treated inferior' and in the context of Islam- I was just telling you this isn't true. And it is irrelevant as to whether or not you personally, think they are following the "proper teachings" of Islam. They do believe they are acting in the name of Islam and it is that, that is causing the damage. And can I just point out that although Afghanistan is probably the worst offender- it isn’t the only Muslim country to treat women badly in the name of Islam.

Maybe you should do a bit of research on that before you make such blanket statements? It's not about the 'original teachings'- it is how they are interpreted by people.

Again I would advice you not to relate one particular minority with religion, there ar high crime rates in America and UK who break their law, does that mean I would put a stereotype that America and UK are intolerant country, simply no as those citizen have done something that is aginst the laws of their country, in the same way Afghanistan have broken the law of Prophet mohammed's laws and message. By the way to me, I think women are treated more inferior in the west than in an Islamic country.

[Matt10k]

I have some questions:

Are women in Saudi Arabia allowed to drive yet?

How would a gay person be treated in Saudi Arabia or any Muslim country?

How would a woman that cheated on her husband be treated there or in any Muslim country?

How would a woman that chose to wear something other than a religious garment be treated?

How would a woman or man, born in Saudi arabia be treated if they weren't Muslim?

All things that are, for the most part, pretty acceptable now in the west...

And you can think whatever you like about how badly you think women are treated in the west, as opposed to Muslim countries, but without any actual evidence to back up you idea, it becomes just another of you mute points.

[Matt10k]

Also, I heard women are not able to vote in Saudi Arabia or run in elections?

So how are women in the west treated worse? Do you honestly think a western woman would be happier living in Saudi Arabia, where she is no longer treated equally and told she must give up half of her rights!!? :sad:

[Matt10k]

You seem to be having trouble answering my questions so I will answer some of them for you:

Women are not allowed to drive in Saudi Arabia.

Gay people are treated very poorly in Saudi Arabia- being gay is a criminal offence and is punished severely- known gay people are often flogged, receive substantial prison terms and are sometimes even executed.

Not following the Islamic code is a criminal offence in Saudi Arabia. The law states all citizens must be Muslims. Religious freedom is non-existent.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status_of_religious_freedom_in_Saudi_Arabia


It's not looking that good is it?

[farhad]

Originally posted by Matt10k
I have some questions, I am not sure of:

[quote]Are women in Saudi Arabia allowed to drive yet

Womens were allowed to ride camels and horses during Prophets time, and there are many Islamic countries apart from Saudies and Iran which is dominated by shia's and Wahabist which dont make the majority of worlds Muslim population, Sunni makes 90% of woulds muslim population. Is there women who has served the head of state in America and Europe apart from Magrette Thatcher?

How would a gay person be treated in Saudi Arabia or any Muslim country?

Theres no such punishment prescribed by Quran or the most Authentic Hadith of muslim follow is Sahi Bhukari about the sayings of prophet that homosexual should be executed, the only punishment might be pescribed is in the afterlife or they might even be forgiven.

Plus Quran also believes in repentness.

How would a woman that cheated on her husband be treated there or in any Muslim country?

Women and Men are both get the same punishment for committing adultry in Sharia Law, both get stoned, but there was a saying from Prophet who cursed the husband who lied about his wife.

Sahi Bhukari Volume 7, Book 63, Number 261:
Narrated Said bin Jubair:

I said to Ibn 'Umar, "If a man accuses his wife of illegal sexual intercourse (what is the judgment)?" He said, "Allah's Prophet separated the couple of Bani 'Ajlan (when the husband accused his wife for an illegal sexual intercourse). The Prophet said, 'Allah knows that one of you two IS a liar; so will one of you repent?' But they refused. He then again said, 'Allah knows that one of you two is a liar; so will one of you repent?' But they refused, whereupon he separated them by divorce." Aiyub (a sub-narrator) said: 'Amr bin Dinar said to me, "In the narration there is something which I do not see you mentioning, i.e. the husband said, "What about my money (Mahr)?' The Prophet said, "You are not entitled to take back money, for if you told the truth you have already entered upon her (and consummated your marriage with her) and if you are a liar then you are less entitled to take it back.


How would a woman that chose to wear something other than a religious garment be treated?

Women and men both are suggested to dress modestly, Allah first gives a dress code for a man in the quran then for a women, but head covering isn't compulsory bit permissable and this is a sign of respect to women that doesn't look upon as sexual object, Islam calls every women those who they not married as sisters, how much more respect would a women need.

How would a woman or man, born in Saudi arabia be treated if they weren't Muslim?

Again I suggest you study the life of prophet Mohammed that non-muslims were required to be treated equally and practise their faith freely when living under a muslim government, and there are many signs in history where people of other faith were treated well under the rules of such as salladin, Mugals, moors, ottomons. And like I said Saudie are whabist, so i dont agree with most of their policy.

All things that are, for the most part, pretty acceptable now in the west...

And you can think whatever you like about how badly you think women are treated in the west, as opposed to Muslim countries, but without any actual evidence to back up you idea, it becomes just another of you mute points.

brother zakir will give you the answer, same views as min.:thumbs:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oG00Zw-FvkA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y69bL-aPthc&feature=related

Every day their a wide range of degradation of women in front covers, top shelf, the allow of mistresses, ponography.

[farhad]

Originally posted by Matt10k
Also, I heard women are not able to vote in Saudi Arabia or run in elections?

So how are women in the west treated worse? Do you honestly think a western woman would be happier living in Saudi Arabia, where she is no longer treated equally and told she must give up half of her rights!!? :sad:

Womens were give rights to vote 14 centuries ago, Women were not give rights to vote here till the late 19ths century, and you keep on bringing Saudie, i told you i dont agree with their policy and it is not the same country as it was before the wahabist took control and distorted the laws of the prophet. One great thing in saudie, i think women will be alot safer from the harrassment, according to statistics saudie has the lowest crime rate in the world.:bigsmile:

[farhad]

Originally posted by Matt10k
Women are not allowed to drive in Saudi Arabia.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status_of_religious_freedom_in_Saudi_Arabia


It's not looking that good is it?

Gay people are treated poorly in many european countries, homosexual was illegal in this country just about couple of decades ago.


Womens in islam and their rights.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_and_Islam

[Matt10k]

I can assure you women cannot drive in Saudi Arabia- I’m not sure what half of that long winded reply you gave on that subject meant regarding camels and whatnot- and yes there have been other female heads of state- and we have many female politicians- (at least it is allowed here)

You said women are treated worse in the west? How come they still can’t drive or vote in Saudi Arabia or be part of the electorate?

When you say they must dress modestly, what you actually mean is they MUST be Muslims- as do men. Not being Muslim is a criminal offence- there is no freedom of religion in Saudi Arabia.

Your point that gay people are treated poorly here. Hmm... hardly the same as getting lashed, executed or imprisoned for it, is it?!



Originally posted by farhad
Women and Men are both get the same punishment for committing adultry in Sharia Law, both get stoned
Oh great! :joker: sounds like a fantastically civil place to live then! Men and women are stoned to death for adultery. So... Still think women are treated worse in the west?



All you points on ‘used to be illegal in the west’ or ‘women used to not be able to vote’ does nothing for your point that women are NOW treated worse in the west. What is actually the case is that we abolished such archaic laws and Muslim countries DIDN'T meaning it’s those Muslim countries, which are now behind and where people are still oppressed and treated worse- especially women.

So your argument that women in the west are treated worse (if you even have one) is exceptionally weak...

[Lauren]

Originally posted by farhad
Originally posted by Matt10k
Women are not allowed to drive in Saudi Arabia.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status_of_religious_freedom_in_Saudi_Arabia


It's not looking that good is it?

Gay people are treated poorly in many european countries, homosexual was illegal in this country just about couple of decades ago.


Womens in islam and their rights.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_and_Islam

I'm not meaning to turn my argument into an anti-Islam argument, but I need to face this point imparticular.

My friend was born into a Muslim family, and visits the mosque each evening. However, he is gay, and cannot come out to his family because this puts him in danger. Never has he faced trouble from his peers for being who he is, but he cannot let anyone know within the Muslim circle that he is gay. Why is it that Islam looks down so badly at homosexuality?

You cannot bring the 'everywhere has homophobia' argument into it, because as I said he's faced no trouble from his peers.

Is it something in the Qu'ran that teaches this? Or is it just traditional thought?

[farhad]

Originally posted by Matt10k
I can assure you women cannot drive- I’m not sure what half of that long winded reply you gave on that subject meant regarding camels and whatnot- and yes there have been other female heads of state- and we have many female politicians- (at least it is allowed here)

You said women are treated worse in the west? How come they still can’t drive or vote in Saudi Arabia or be part of the electorate?

Such as degradation fo their soles, and honour through wild exposure, every day there is rape taken place in America, now if you implemented the sharia that if a man rapes a women then he will receive death penalty, would the rape increase or decrease? Camels and horses were the transports of that time.

When you say they must dress modestly, what you actually mean is they MUST be Muslims- as do men. Not being Muslim is a criminal offence- there is no freedom of religion in Saudi Arabia.

Modesty is a sign of respect, would you



Originally posted by farhad
Women and Men are both get the same punishment for committing adultry in Sharia Law, both get stoned
Oh great! :joker: sounds like a fantastically civil place to live then! Men and women are stoned to death for adultery. So... Still think women are treated worse in the west?[/quote]

So do you see that that men and women get equal punishmet? Sounds civil and fair and erases adultry, and marraige break up



All you points on ‘used to be illegal in the west’ or ‘women used to not be able to vote’ does nothing for your point that women are NOW treated worse in the west. What is actually the case is that we abolished such archaic laws and Muslim countries DIDN'T meaning it’s those Muslim countries, which are now behind and where people are still oppressed and treated worse- especially women.

Women i west are treated with inferiority and as sexual object. Their condition is much worse, daily a women is getting raped, prostitution is common. According to your perception muslim women are treated badly, but do you know out those of those who accept islam majority and 33% are muslims. In America after 9/11 1.5 million converted muslim, 33% of them are said to be women, if women are treated badly why the rate of converion of islam majority are women?

So your argument that women in the west are treated worse (if you even have one) is exceptionally weak...

Yes, IMO they have degrade the women by such things like top shel, lads mag, misstresses.

[Matt10k]

No, being stoned to death for adultery is anything but civil- I couldn’t give a toss whether or not it is "equal". If I started going around killing men and women ‘equally’ would that make it ok? Your arguments are useless!

“Modesty is a sign of respect”. So what! Women should be able to wear whatever they want and we should respect that.

And lads mags degrading women is the best you can do? The women choose to appear in them- I don’t find them particularly degrading- it’s part and parcel of having a free society- unlike Saudi Arabia, which is anything but free- having to be a Muslim for example- being executed for being gay- not being able to wear what you want.

Sorry, but I know where I’d rather live and I think I speak for a lot of people here too.

You tell a western woman she would be better off not being ‘degraded’ by the west anymore by moving to Saudi Arabia, where she will not be allowed to vote, drive, drink alcohol, wear what she wants, go out when she wants, practice whatever religious beliefs she wants and will be stoned to death if she cheats on her husband and see what she says to you!

I think you'll find it starts with a certain four letter word and ends with 'off' :joker:

[farhad]

Originally posted by Lauren
Originally posted by farhad
[quote]Originally posted by Matt10k
Women are not allowed to drive in Saudi Arabia.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status_of_religious_freedom_in_Saudi_Arabia


It's not looking that good is it?

Gay people are treated poorly in many european countries, homosexual was illegal in this country just about couple of decades ago.


Womens in islam and their rights.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_and_Islam

I'm not meaning to turn my argument into an anti-Islam argument, but I need to face this point imparticular.

My friend was born into a Muslim family, and visits the mosque each evening. However, he is gay, and cannot come out to his family because this puts him in danger. Never has he faced trouble from his peers for being who he is, but he cannot let anyone know within the Muslim circle that he is gay. Why is it that Islam looks down so badly at homosexuality?

You cannot bring the 'everywhere has homophobia' argument into it, because as I said he's faced no trouble from his peers.


According National Gay and Lesbian Task Force's (NGLTF) national conference in Detroit by Executive Director Matt Foreman.

"Folks, with 70 percent of the people in this country living with HIV being gay or bi (sexual), we cannot deny that HIV is a gay disease," Foreman told his audience. "We have to own that and face up to that."

According to the federal Centers for Disease Control, 70 percent of all cases of HIV occur among men who have sex with other men (MSMs), people who are bisexual (e.g., who have sex with both men and women, or those who inject illegal drugs with infected needles (previously used by MSMs).

If this practise would the spread of disease spread more or spread less. Quran says every sole is reponsible for their own action.


Is it something in the Qu'ran that teaches this? Or is it just traditional thought?

Homosexuality is much discussed in the Quran apart from the people of Lut where a man was being harrassed by another man, and according to that story allah cursed those people, thats about it.

In the same way how Islam looks down on alcohol.

[Matt10k]

Maybe we should do a survey?

How many of the women here are persuaded enough by Farhads argument, to pack their bags and go to live in a country like Saudi Arabia?!

His reasoning that you should leave is that you are degrading yourself by what you wear- and that you are more likely to be raped.

On the downside however, you must now wear full Muslim clothing, be a Muslim and follow all the Islamic code (whether you believe in it or not)- also, you must not be gay (or you could be killed- at best you will be jailed)- you cannot drink alcohol, you will not be allowed to listen to certain music and you will also not be allowed to drive or vote.

Also, if you have sex before marriage, you will be stoned to death.

Convinced?

[Sticks]

This thread has the potential to degenerate and seems to have gone off topic. I would suggest that it be locked for a while at least

[Matt10k]

Originally posted by Sticks
This thread has the potential to degenerate and seems to have gone off topic. I would suggest that it be locked for a while at least

It had degenerated from the very moment someone started trying to suggest their religious temple was the centre of the Earth, then spent the next 4 or 5 pages trying to convert everyone to their religion, whilst spouting a constant stream of false information.

[Lauren]

Originally posted by Sticks
This thread has the potential to degenerate and seems to have gone off topic. I would suggest that it be locked for a while at least

At the moment I think it's still on topic, as the title suggests people should convert to Islam and members are discussing the morality of the statement.

However, I would remind members to stay on topic, and respect other faiths when doing so.

[Matt10k]

Originally posted by Lauren
However, I would remind members to stay on topic, and respect other faiths when doing so.

It's all well and good saying I should be all PC and respect someone's religion- but the Saudi's believe they are acting in the name of their religion when they kill gay people or not afford women the same rights as men- and stone people to death for having sex before marriage or for adultery.

Why should I have to respect that?

If I said I did respect it, I would be lying.

[Lauren]

Originally posted by Matt10k
Originally posted by Lauren
However, I would remind members to stay on topic, and respect other faiths when doing so.

It's all well and good saying I should be all PC and respect someone's religion- but the Saudi's believe they are acting in the name of their religion when they kill gay people or not afford women the same rights as men- and stone people to death for having sex before marriage or for adultery.

Why should I have to respect that?

If I said I did respect it, I would be lying.

You don't have to respect the faith, but respect the right to the faith.

[Matt10k]

Originally posted by Lauren
Originally posted by Matt10k
Originally posted by Lauren
However, I would remind members to stay on topic, and respect other faiths when doing so.

It's all well and good saying I should be all PC and respect someone's religion- but the Saudi's believe they are acting in the name of their religion when they kill gay people or not afford women the same rights as men- and stone people to death for having sex before marriage or for adultery.

Why should I have to respect that?

If I said I did respect it, I would be lying.

You don't have to respect the faith, but respect the right to the faith.

The right to a faith which in Saudi Arabia and other Muslim countries practices such horrific acts?

I don't see why I should respect their right to do that either- since it is in the name of that particular faith that they commit such acts.

To me, that would just be splitting hairs.

[Sticks]

According to some experts on that Channel 4 programme some of the the things practised pre-dated Islam and were not part of it

FWIW

[Matt10k]

Originally posted by Sticks
According to some experts on that Channel 4 programme some of the the things practised pre-dated Islam and were not part of it

FWIW

Yes, no doubt, people were like that before Islam. Islam dates back thousands of years. People were more barbaric thousands of years ago.

What is surprising though, is how countries like Saudi Arabia seem to have made practically no progress in that time. Things like public stonings for sex before marriage, or for being gay, are acts of barbarity long since abandoned in western countries.

Of course they now say they are committing such acts in the name of 'Islam'. Whether it is true to Islam to kill gay people or people having sex before marriage or not is irrelevant- It’s the very fact that they are still doing it and calling themselves Muslims- in fact, wasn’t the original subject of this thread stating how Saudi Arabia IS the centre of Islam?! So I’d expect the way they act, very much IS excepted as Islamic and in the name of Islam!

And by defending their laws or actions- they are basically saying- it's ok to kill gay people/ adulterous people or those that have sex before marriage and that it's ok that women can't vote or drive and don‘t have half as many rights as men.

So I think most people would be able to see why I'd find it ridiculous that they then go on to say how much worse they think women are treated in the west.

[Sticks]

I vaguely remember that on the Isle of Mann, homosexuality was still illegal.

[Lauren]

Originally posted by Sticks
I vaguely remember that on the Isle of Mann, homosexuality was still illegal.

I just asked my friend who lives on IOM and he says there are no laws concerning homosexuality on the island?

[Sticks]

Originally posted by Lauren
I just asked my friend who lives on IOM and he says there are no laws concerning homosexuality on the island?

It was decriminalised in 1994

See here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_the_Isle_of_Man)


We now return you to your regular programming

[AngRemembered]

Muhammad was born in Mecca, Saudi Arabia in 570 AD. At that time Arabs practised a form of worship of Allah (God) that was centred in the Mecca valley, at the sacred site of the Ka'bah, a simple cubelike building where a black meteorite was revered.
According to Islamic tradition the Ka'bah was oringinally built by Adam (1st man of the Bible) according to a celestial prototype and after the great flood (In Noah's day) was rebuilt by Abraham and Ismael (also charectors of the Bible)

The centre of the earth was a figurative centre, not a litral geographical site(the earths core), it was believed the 'staircase to heaven' was found above it.
Muhammad grew up with these beliefs and his faith centred on there being one almighty and ever living God (Allah his name) his beliefs were in harmony with what is found within the scriptures we know as the Bible (a collection of Hebrew writings and Greek writings of the latter followers of Jesus Christ) With this faith in one God Muhammad struggled with ever increasing popular doctrine spreading within Christianity of a Trinity godhead, A Father, Son, and Holy spirit as same and as one, this belief would have been considered huge contradiction to the worshippers in Mecca including Mohammad. (It is also a belief which is not biblicly inspired or originated, but one which has grown from oppostate christian churches).

To such extent Mohammed now at the age of 40, believed whilst taking his daily meditation he was given a calling by God to become a prophet (a messanger of God) he claimed this message was brought to him by an angel Gabriel (another name found in the Bible)
His message was committed to memory as writing materials were scarce, and paper had yet to be widely used for taking notes. As the message was spread by word of mouth Arabs used the hide of there Camels or wood to help them memorise the teachings from Mohammed which lasted untill Muhammad's death in 632AD. These messages from God to Muhammad make up the entire Qu'ran as it is today, and is the cornerstone of the Islamic faith (Islam translated is surrender, or submission to God)
Initially his message caused a split in which Muhammad was rejected even by his own tribe and exiled to a place north of Mecca called Yathrib which became known as Medina (the city of the prophet)
Eventually Muhammad's converts grew to achieve total dominance and in 630 AD he and his army returned to a surrendered Mecca having won many battles along the way to gaining power and control.

All throughout this time the scriptures of the Hebrew part we now know as the Bible were widely available, as too were the message of the Greek scriptures, both would have been available and accessed by Muhammad and his followers. It was the false doctrine and the compromises made by the christian churches at the time to Roman power which rankled with the faithful scholars like Mohammad, and I believe inspired him to fight to bring back Gods original message.
The problem I have with the Qu'ran and Muhammad's message, is the fact we already had this message at the time from the same God. Although not combined into one neet collection of books we know as the Bible today, the essense of those same scriptures were all out there in readable script, God had already sent his message and the answer to mankinds questions in the form of his son, another miracle creation (like Adam) which was Jesus Christ.

Any follow up would have to be in harmony with the testomony found in the original scriptures, although Muhammad believed in them there was no need to form another religion unless they were considered erronous and ungodly.
You cannot accept Jesus as a prophet if you accept the holy scriptures which claim to be divinley written, in those scriptures Jesus is said to be the son of God, a charge which would be considered blaphemous and just like the Jewish faith found in Jesus's case, a charge which carries the death penalty.
Of course if you dont accept the holy scriptures which the same God inspired man to write for all time and found now in the 66 books of the Bible, then why do you have a religion which bases 75% of its writings on such a faulty and unacceptable premise.

[usaFtw]

Im not sure how much people know about this here, but I thought I might share this with everyone, seen as I only knew about it so recently.

I only found out recently that the English language is associated with indi, becuase its a Indo-European language. Im semetic (in the blue zone) , incase some might not like this post or whatever.

http://www.picbi.com/upload/images/yfme6cotd6istfezljl.jpg

Im not sure about race, but Iv always seen a connection between Indians and British people, apart from the skin colour, the same 'conservative' minds are in both Indians and British, like they derive from the same genetics, for example look at how England plays football compared to portugal? but I was thinking It could be possible if north europeans were "Albino Indians":-

http://www.shunya.net/Pictures/South%20India/Badami/PicnickingGirls01.jpg

the word "aryan" derives from India any way, and there are a mojority of white people that are close to Desi people (Pakistani, Indian, Bangladesh) such as Afganistan, who can be considered more "Whiter" than Italian people. If you research into images of Afgani people youll see. And also Iran, were the majority of them are white people with other colour eyes.

Also, I saw this video on Youtube of a albino chinese girl with "green eyes" chinese people dont have green eyes, and green eyes or other color eyes were always said to be a genetical mutation. But would this mean that North Europeans are hindu albinos with other color eyes like this chinese woman?:-


http://youtube.com/watch?v=wCppkabBh2A

Iv always noticed how some british people hate Indians specifically differently, for example the Shilpa shetty incident was clearly racism but I remember how BB would interview the public and passers by, were they would say no it wasnt racism... theres something between the two groups of people that im not part of which makes it harder to read. but i dont know, im not trying to offend anyone in any way whats so ever.

what are your opinions?

Im semetic white, by the way so I know some white aryan people might be abit "shocked" about this post:

Iranian Women:-
http://www.doomdam.com/archives/hijab.jpg

http://www.picbi.com/upload/images/eq7x3czsa30u9ib2b3x.jpg

iranian boy:-
http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r111/Sunshineenfred/bloneIran.jpg

Iraqi Women:
http://www.picbi.com/upload/images/90tyv3i814gfgfniebg.jpg

Afgan People
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pej0U4PPt88

afgan girl:-
http://afghanistanica.files.wordpress.com/2007/03/afghan1_1.jpg

afgan man:-
http://www.geocities.com/om_kranti/misc/guesswho1.jpg

iran revolutionary creator and sean connery:-
http://www.aref-adib.com/archives/khomeini_connery1.jpg

Afgan man during a British Raid:-
http://www.irishoriginsofcivilization.com/miscimages/afghanmansm.jpg

[usaFtw]

Also a note to Farhad, why is he attaching himself so much to arabic-ness.

Pakistani people are DESI people, meaning they are in the etchnic group of "Indians, Bangladeshis, Sri Lankans, etc".

Pakistani people speak Urdu and are of indian race (desi)

Arabs & Hewbews are semetic people, im white arabic (semetic) from Algeria. Jesus was semetic like me, he spoke Aramiac

[Matt10k]

Well, as I said in your other post- Europeans are not albino Indians. And Europe does not derive from India- or at least the majority of historians now agree that Europe would have been colonised before India when the first nomadic people left Africa (even geologically, this makes the most sense), so this would mean India, derives from Europe.

[usaFtw]

Originally posted by Matt10k
Well, as I said in your other post- Europeans are not albino Indians. And Europe does not derive from India- or at least the majority of historians now agree that Europe would have been colonised before India when the first nomadic people left Africa (even geologically, this makes the most sense), so this would mean India, derives from Europe.

Please look at the distance between Afganistan and India,

Afganistan - white

India/Pakistan - dark brown

Afganistan and India are closer than Europe and Africa, geo-logically that makes more sense.


http://www.worldlanguage.com/CountryMaps/1.gif

please explain to me the term aryan and where it comes from?


http://texasholdemblogger.files.wordpress.com/2007/12/swastika.png

hindu sign:-
http://tajonline.tolshop.com/v1/product_images/3775_large.jpg

[Matt10k]

Originally posted by usaFtw
Please look at the distance between Afganistan and India,

Afganistan - white

India/Pakistan - dark brown

Afganistan and India are closer than Europe and Africa, geo-logically that makes more sense.


Why Afganistan? People came out of Africa. I looked at the distance between where North Africa joins on to Israel and from there- Europe is much closer than India. France (well into europe) for example is around 2,500 miles, if you travel up through Israel, Lebanon and Syria- which is well into Europe. India is Nearly 3,000 miles...

[usaFtw]

Originally posted by Matt10k
Why Afganistan? People came out of Africa. I looked at the distance between where North Arfrica joins on to Israel and from there- Europe is much closer than India. France for example is around 2,500 miles, if you travel up through Israel, Lebanon and Syria- which is well into Europe. India is Nearly 3,000 miles...

lol - why Afganistan, Israel is a pheonician country SEMETIC, the hebrews (darker skin) people lived there until greeks came and invaded it POST civilization era.

now again, would reconsider "why afganistan", maybe look at the family groups....... :shrug:

israel and the middle east are SEMETIC people

Not Indo-European Like India, Pakistani and Germany, and Iran etc...

There are whites in North Africa and the Middle East, who are Semetic, like me..

They are not the same (even by facial features) as Indo-european whites

[Matt10k]

Originally posted by usaFtw
Originally posted by Matt10k
Why Afganistan? People came out of Africa. I looked at the distance between where North Arfrica joins on to Israel and from there- Europe is much closer than India. France for example is around 2,500 miles, if you travel up through Israel, Lebanon and Syria- which is well into Europe. India is Nearly 3,000 miles...

lol - why Afganistan, Israel is a pheonician country SEMETIC, the hebrews (darker skin) people lived there until greeks came and invaded.

now again, would reconsider "why afganistan", maybe look at the family groups....... :shrug:

israel and the middle east are SEMETIC people

Not Indo-European

You were talking pre civilisation. Since it is generally accepted that people moved out of Africa- Europe is closer than India and is now thought to have been reached first by ancient nomadic people- meaning India would have been moved to at a later time.

[usaFtw]

please define europe and where the "white" border line is... then come back and tell me if pakistan is closer than africa...



There are whites in North Africa and the Middle East, who are Semetic, like me..

They are not the same (even by facial features) as Indo-european whites

INDO-EUROPEAN = INDIANS (dark) AND GERMANS (mostly white)

SEMETIC ARABS (mostly white) AND SOMALIANS (dark)

etc etc....

I think your mistaken, your views are generally accepted in north europe.

[usaFtw]

also would you kindly define the term "Aryan", wikipedia it if you want

?


Aryan is an English word derived from the Sanskrit meaning "noble" or "honorable".

Now sanskrit means: -

Sanskrit is a classical language of the Indian Subcontinent


Source= wikipedia...

[Matt10k]

Originally posted by usaFtw
please define europe and where the "white" border line is... then come back and tell me if pakistan is closer than africa...



There are whites in North Africa and the Middle East, who are Semetic, like me..

They are not the same (even by facial features) as Indo-european whites

INDO-EUROPEAN = INDIANS (dark) AND GERMANS (mostly white)

SEMETIC ARABS (mostly white) AND SOMALIANS (dark)

etc etc....

I think your mistaken, your views are generally accepted in north europe.

Yes, NOW there are. Originally, those moving out of Africa would have been black. Those who moved to colder areas would have gradually become white. It is thought Europe was reached before India by these nomadic people.

Since then, people have moved about a lot- saying what colours and races are present there now and using it as proof of their pre-civilisational origin is messy and could be easily misleading.

Also, half of your points make little sense to me- or don't seem relevant. Is there any chance you could try and explain it a bit better?!

[Matt10k]

Originally posted by usaFtw
also would you kindly define the term "Aryan", wikipedia it if you want

?


Aryan is an English word derived from the Sanskrit meaning "noble" or "honorable".

Now sanskrit means: -

Sanskrit is a classical language of the Indian Subcontinent


Source= wikipedia...

So?

[usaFtw]

Originally posted by Matt10k
Yes, NOW there are. Originally, those moving out of Africa would have been black. Those who moved to colder areas would have gradually become white. It is thought Europe was reached before India by these nomadic people.

Half of your points make little sense to me- or don't seem relevant. Is there any chance you could try and explain it a bit better?!

OK assuming that man was born in kenya africa, as is the consensus, it is far more logical he got there to Pakistan faster than northern europe... by land, as post-ape man, couldnt invent a boat ..............

Originally posted by Matt10k
So?
nice studently responce... i dont know if i could be talking to a brick wall right now, but dont you think north europeans that are "Aryan" derive from where the word derives , needless to say the word was actually invented there.....

[Matt10k]

Originally posted by usaFtw
Originally posted by Matt10k
Yes, NOW there are. Originally, those moving out of Africa would have been black. Those who moved to colder areas would have gradually become white. It is thought Europe was reached before India by these nomadic people.

Half of your points make little sense to me- or don't seem relevant. Is there any chance you could try and explain it a bit better?!

OK assuming that man was born in kenya africa, as is the consensus, it is far more logical he got there to Pakistan faster than northern europe... by land, as post-ape man, couldnt invent a boat ..............

But you didn't say pakistan- you said INDIA! If they spread in both directions at roughly the same time- you will find that they would have even reached France before India by land as it is still closer than India!

[Matt10k]

Originally posted by usaFtw
nice studently responce... i dont know if i could be talking to a brick wall right now, but dont you think north europeans that are "Aryan" derive from where the word derives , needless to say the word was actually invented there.....

No. I'd say that was a very simplistic way of looking at where whole races derived from, as are all your arguments.

[usaFtw]

Originally posted by Matt10k
Originally posted by usaFtw
nice studently responce... i dont know if i could be talking to a brick wall right now, but dont you think north europeans that are "Aryan" derive from where the word derives , needless to say the word was actually invented there.....

No. I'd say that was a very simplistic way of looking at where whole races derived from, as are all your arguments.

the word derives from there, there fore if you live in a logical place,

logic then follows, calling my argument simplistic compared to your arguments is beyond me... lol i did feel like im talking to a brick wall sometime lol.

but any how.... logic always wins :) whether you like or not

[farhad]

Matt10K the reason I agree that punishment for Adultry for me is justfied because like Our muslim beloved Prophet Prophecised, he said: “Never does sexual perversion become widespread and publicly known in certain people without them being overtaken by plague and disease that never happened to their ancestors who came before them.”(Reported by Ibn Majah.) He (peace be upon him) also said: “Whenever adultery becomes a widespread phenomena among certain people, death will spread among them.”(Reported by Malik.)

The widespread aids in the western society is primarily due to adultry, sleeping with multiple people. Can you imagine how did he know about plague the black death disease which we call it as AIDS today. If this strict punishment is implmented would it be safer and healthy for the society. However Quran doesn't mention stoning but strict punishment like fine would be much better.

Furthermore to this miraculous statment how did Prophet know about this disease and our soceity will become how it is today.

[farhad]

Originally posted by Angiebabe
Muhammad was born in Mecca, Saudi Arabia in 570 AD. At that time Arabs practised a form of worship of Allah (God) that was centred in the Mecca valley, at the sacred site of the Ka'bah, a simple cubelike building where a black meteorite was revered.
According to Islamic tradition the Ka'bah was oringinally built by Adam (1st man of the Bible) according to a celestial prototype and after the great flood (In Noah's day) was rebuilt by Abraham and Ismael (also charectors of the Bible)

The centre of the earth was a figurative centre, not a litral geographical site(the earths core), it was believed the 'staircase to heaven' was found above it.
Muhammad grew up with these beliefs and his faith centred on there being one almighty and ever living God (Allah his name) his beliefs were in harmony with what is found within the scriptures we know as the Bible (a collection of Hebrew writings and Greek writings of the latter followers of Jesus Christ) With this faith in one God Muhammad struggled with ever increasing popular doctrine spreading within Christianity of a Trinity godhead, A Father, Son, and Holy spirit as same and as one, this belief would have been considered huge contradiction to the worshippers in Mecca including Mohammad. (It is also a belief which is not biblicly inspired or originated, but one which has grown from oppostate christian churches).

To such extent Mohammed now at the age of 40, believed whilst taking his daily meditation he was given a calling by God to become a prophet (a messanger of God) he claimed this message was brought to him by an angel Gabriel (another name found in the Bible)
His message was committed to memory as writing materials were scarce, and paper had yet to be widely used for taking notes. As the message was spread by word of mouth Arabs used the hide of there Camels or wood to help them memorise the teachings from Mohammed which lasted untill Muhammad's death in 632AD. These messages from God to Muhammad make up the entire Qu'ran as it is today, and is the cornerstone of the Islamic faith (Islam translated is surrender, or submission to God)
Initially his message caused a split in which Muhammad was rejected even by his own tribe and exiled to a place north of Mecca called Yathrib which became known as Medina (the city of the prophet)
Eventually Muhammad's converts grew to achieve total dominance and in 630 AD he and his army returned to a surrendered Mecca having won many battles along the way to gaining power and control.

All throughout this time the scriptures of the Hebrew part we now know as the Bible were widely available, as too were the message of the Greek scriptures, both would have been available and accessed by Muhammad and his followers. It was the false doctrine and the compromises made by the christian churches at the time to Roman power which rankled with the faithful scholars like Mohammad, and I believe inspired him to fight to bring back Gods original message.
The problem I have with the Qu'ran and Muhammad's message, is the fact we already had this message at the time from the same God. Although not combined into one neet collection of books we know as the Bible today, the essense of those same scriptures were all out there in readable script, God had already sent his message and the answer to mankinds questions in the form of his son, another miracle creation (like Adam) which was Jesus Christ.

Any follow up would have to be in harmony with the testomony found in the original scriptures, although Muhammad believed in them there was no need to form another religion unless they were considered erronous and ungodly.
You cannot accept Jesus as a prophet if you accept the holy scriptures which claim to be divinley written, in those scriptures Jesus is said to be the son of God, a charge which would be considered blaphemous and just like the Jewish faith found in Jesus's case, a charge which carries the death penalty.
Of course if you dont accept the holy scriptures which the same God inspired man to write for all time and found now in the 66 books of the Bible, then why do you have a religion which bases 75% of its writings on such a faulty and unacceptable premise.

The reason Bible Islam cannot accept in todays form is because of changes, and such like Pornographic material, the laughable terrible scientific errors and creation, terrible slander against women and Black people which are people of Ham, worshipping 3 Gods, cannot be attributed to almighty. Bible in its original form was like Quran but later on was changed and Quran IMOcame to correct it.

[AngRemembered]

Originally posted by farhad

The reason Bible Islam cannot accept in todays form is because of changes, and such like Pornographic material, terrible slander against women and Black people which people of Ham, worshipping 3 Gods, cannot be attributed to almighty.

So why does Islam accept passages of a Book inspired by the same God which within ITS text (not the churches of christianity) and not all of it?

Why do muslims accept Jesus as a same prophet like Muhammad yet the former called himself God's son and was rejected by the Jewish religious heirarchy the Pharisees and condemmed in the same manner Jesus would have been condemmed in Saudi Arabia today if he uttered the same message?

How do you account for these huge contradictions, and the fact that in his battle to take over Mecca Muhammad fought alone with an army of fellow converts and entirely without the divine help of God.
The Bible, to which Islam embraces as a book inspired by God clearly states that the world is in the powers of the evil one till such time God will call a time on its rulership and transform the earth to its heavenly paradis which was first intended in Adams day.

[farhad]

Originally posted by Angiebabe
Originally posted by farhad

The reason Bible Islam cannot accept in todays form is because of changes, and such like Pornographic material, terrible slander against women and Black people which people of Ham, worshipping 3 Gods, cannot be attributed to almighty.

So why does Islam accept passages of a Book inspired by the same God which within ITS text (not the churches of christianity) and not all of it?

Why do muslims accept Jesus as a same prophet like Muhammad yet the former called himself God's son and was rejected by the Jewish religious heirarchy the Pharisees and condemmed in the same manner Jesus would have been condemmed in Saudi Arabia today if he uttered the same message?

How do you account for these huge contradictions, and the fact that in his battle to take over Mecca Muhammad fought alone with an army of fellow converts and entirely without the divine help of God.
The Bible, to which Islam embraces as a book inspired by God clearly states that the world is in the powers of the evil one till such time God will call a time on its rulership and transform the earth to its heavenly paradis which was first intended in Adams day.

You misunderstood me, Islam accepts Bible that was give to Jesus, but believes later on it has become corrupted by men, the obvious scientific error cannot be attributed to all-knowing. It had to be changed. By the way Prophet Mohammed was clearly prophecised in the OT and NT as the final Prophet even by name.:bigsmile:

[AngRemembered]

Originally posted by farhad


You misunderstood me, Islam accepts Bible that was give to Jesus, but believes later on it has become corrupted by men, the obvious scientific error cannot be attributed to all-knowing. It had to be changed. By the way Prophet Mohammed was clearly prophecised in the OT and NT as the final Prophet even by name.:bigsmile:

No misunderstanding, the Bible has undergone many examinations to assertain its validity to both age and whether its text has changed, so far the Bible has wistood the test, it was written well before the advent of the Qu'ran and is yet to be proven erronous by both science and historians.

Man made christian doctrine orininating from the spread of the Roman empire making compromises with pagan worship of the captive natives is another matter, all these beliefs now found in Christendom are all as like that of the Islamic faith man made and full of contradictions to the original inspired truth.

Can you quote me the scripture where Muhammad is said to come by name? In the case of jesus's coming the bible has hundreds of proghecies to this momentous coming of Gods son, from his place of birth his family linage to David, his time of ministry, his capture by means of a traitor for 30 pieces of silver, his silence before trial, his death, and buried amondst the rich, and ultimately his ressurection after 3 days.
How could Muhammad be considered in the same light as a mere prophet and by using the same set of scriptures.

Like I say if you even use one scripture from the Bible to justify Islam, then because of its importance to Allah it must be a very reliable and holy book indeed.
But by doing so you must accept ALL of the bible or you fall into the same catergory of all those man made churches of christendom who have allowed such abominable practises within its faith, I cant see how Islam has done anything different in this respect by accepting exactly what they do and dont want to believe from the original holy scriptures.

[Shaun]

The fact there's 7 pages of incredibly boring and hair-splitting argument here gives me the reason to not bother with religion at all.

All it does is cause boring debate and pointless argument, not to mention war, injustice, violence...

[Tom]

Originally posted by Shaun
The fact there's 7 pages of incredibly boring and hair-splitting argument here gives me the reason to not bother with religion at all.

All it does is cause boring debate and pointless argument, not to mention war, injustice, violence...

Its not a cause of those, its those which justify themselves by religion.

I left this debate properly along time ago. It was debating the centre of the Earth, not Islam as a whole. Its just turned into farhad attempting to teach us about Islam and convert us.

[AngRemembered]

Originally posted by Shaun
The fact there's 7 pages of incredibly boring and hair-splitting argument here gives me the reason to not bother with religion at all.

All it does is cause boring debate and pointless argument, not to mention war, injustice, violence...

Spot on shaun< i'm trying to point out the pure hyposcricy here of mans beliefs muslim or christian.

Seems pretty simple to me, thou shalt not kill, but if you had any doubts to that message then Jesus (son of God or prophet said) to love others like I have loved you.
Jesus never so much as hit anyone let alone killed people on mass.

So what does man do when interpreting holy scripture? it defends so passionatley that is THE WORD OF GOD and not to be mocked or misquoted, even if in a harmless cartoon.
What respect do they all show consistantly once they get the inspired words from God.

You got it, they go out and slaughter anyone in sight no matter who or when
Muhammad got his message when he was 40, by 45 he was on the way to forming an army to slaughter people and take his homeland back.
Some people just go out and become phycopathic serial killers for everyone else they do it the easy way, start a new religion and everyones is fair game when it comes to mass slaughter, and then they have the gaul to call us infedels and ungodly, I prefer peace myself so Islam or any other faith just aint for me.

[farhad]

Originally posted by Angiebabe





Can you quote me the scripture where Muhammad is said to come by name? In the case of jesus's coming the bible has hundreds of proghecies to this momentous coming of Gods son, from his place of birth his family linage to David, his time of ministry, his capture by means of a traitor for 30 pieces of silver, his silence before trial, his death, and buried amondst the rich, and ultimately his ressurection after 3 days.
How could Muhammad be considered in the same light as a mere prophet and by using the same set of scriptures.



Quran said Prophet Mohammed was not only foretold in the Bible but also fortold in various hindu scripture even by name which i will show you as the coming of final prophet.:thumbs:

"And when Jesus son of Mary said: O Children of Israel! Lo! I am the messenger of Allah unto you, confirming that which was (revealed) before me in the Torah, and bringing good tidings of a messenger who cometh after me, whose name is Ahmad (the Praised One)." (Qur'an 61:6)

The liberation of Mecca (Paran) by 10,000 Muslims in the Bible:

Let us look at the following Verse from the King James Version Bible: "And Enoch [Idris in Arabic, one of Allah Almighty's Prophets peace be upon all of them to the people of Israel.] also, the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord came with ten thousands of his saints, to execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard [speeches] which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. (Jude 1:14-15)"

Let us also look at the following Verse: "And he said, The LORD came from Si'-nai, and rose up from Se'-ir unto them; he shined forth from mount Pa'-ran [Mecca in Arabic], and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them. (The King James Version Bible, Deuteronomy 33:2)" According to Islam's history, when Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him and his followers faced hostility from the people of Mecca (Paran), they had to leave the city. They fled to the City of "Yathrib" which was called later "Madina" where Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him continued to spread Islam to all of the Arabs and then later to the countries near by.

(Click here) See Proof that "Paran" in the Bible is "Mecca".

When Islam became complete and the number of the Muslims grew up, Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him decided to liberated the Holy City of Mecca, the city of our beloved father Abraham the father of Ishmael and Isaac peace be upon all of them who built the black cube building of Kaaba in the same city, the Holy House of GOD Almighty.

The army of the Muslims that conquered Mecca without any blood shed (peacefully) were exactly 10,000 men (From the book of "Muhammad the Prophet" by Maulana Muhammad Ali, pages 128-129). The Bible calls them "ten thousands of saints".

Also, the movie "The Message", which talks about the life of Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him, mentions that Mecca was liberated by 10,000 Muslim men.

As brother Abdul Haleem mentions below:

"Muhammad In World Scriptures," Volume I, Maulana Abdul Haq Vidyarthi (New USA Edition, 1999), p. 73.

"Paran" is a biblical name for the part of Arabia called Hejaz where prophet Muhammad [pbuh] was born. When prophet Ishmael and his mother were driven out by Sarah; they settled in the "Wilderness of Paran" (Genesis, 21:21). Prophet Ishmael happens to be the progenitor of prophet Muhammad [pbuh]. . . ."Muhammad [pbuh] In the Bible," Mohd Elfi Nieshaem Juferi, http://members.xoox.com/_XMCM/lordxarkun/Islam/habakkuk.html.


Internet links that have references and proofs of the 10,000 Muslim men liberating the city of Mecca in the Islamic history:

To see more go that site as i cant fit all in.:thumbs:
http://www.answering-christianity.com/predict.htm

[farhad]

Almighty God speaks to Moses in Book of Deuteronomy chapter 18 verse 18:

"I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and I will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him."

The Christians say that this prophecy refers to Jesus (pbuh) because Jesus (pbuh) was like Moses (pbuh). Moses (pbuh) was a Jew, as well as Jesus (pbuh) was a Jew. Moses (pbuh) was a Prophet and Jesus (pbuh) was also a Prophet.

If these two are the only criteria for this prophecy to be fulfilled, then all the Prophets of the Bible who came after
Moses (pbuh) such as Solomon, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Malachi, John the Baptist, etc. (pbut) will
fulfill this prophecy since all were Jews as well as prophets.

However, it is Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) who is like Moses (pbuh):


i)
Both had a father and a mother, while Jesus (pbuh) was born miraculously without any male intervention.

[Mathew 1:18 and Luke 1:35 and also Al-Qur'an 3:42-47]


ii)
Both were married and had children. Jesus (pbuh) according to the Bible did not marry nor had children.

iii)
Both died natural deaths. Jesus (pbuh) has been raised up alive. (4:157-158)

Muhammad (pbuh) is from among the brethren of Moses (pbuh). Arabs are brethren of Jews. Abraham (pbuh) had two sons: Ishmail and Isaac (pbut). The Arabs are the descendants of Ishmail (pbuh) and the Jews are the descendants of Isaac (pbuh).

Words in the mouth:

Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was unlettered and whatever revelations he received from Almighty God he repeated them verbatim.

"I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him."

[Deuteronomy 18:18]


iv)
Both besides being Prophets were also kings i.e. they could inflict capital punishment. Jesus (pbuh) said, "My kingdom is not of this world." (John 18:36).

v)
Both were accepted as Prophets by their people in their lifetime but Jesus (pbuh) was rejected by his
people. John chapter 1 verse 11 states, "He came unto his own, but his own received him not."

iv)
Both brought new laws and new regulations for their people. Jesus (pbuh) according to the Bible did not bring any new laws. (Mathew 5:17-18).

It is Mentioned in the book of Deuteronomy chapter 18:19

"And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not harken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him."


3.
Muhammad (pbuh) is prophesised in the book of Isaiah:

It is mentioned in the book of Isaiah chapter 29 verse 12:

"And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned."

When Archangel Gabrail commanded Muhammad (pbuh) by saying Iqra - "Read", he replied, "I am not learned".

4.
prophet Muhammad (pbuh) mentioned by name in the old testament:

Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is mentioned by name in the Song of Solomon chapter 5 verse 16:

"Hikko Mamittakim we kullo Muhammadim Zehdoodeh wa Zehraee Bayna Jerusalem."

"His mouth is most sweet: yea, he is altogether lovely. This is my beloved, and this is my friend, O daughters
of Jerusalem."

In the Hebrew language im is added for respect. Similarely im is added after the name of Prophet Muhammad
(pbuh) to make it Muhammadim. In English translation they have even translated the name of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) as "altogether lovely", but in the Old Testament in Hebrew, the name of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is yet present.

John chapter 14 verse 16:
Gospel of John chapter 15 verse 26:Gospel of John chapter 15 verse 26:

"But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which
proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me."

Gospel of John chapter 16 verse 7:
Gospel of John chapter 16 verse 12-14:

[AngRemembered]

"According to Islam's history, when Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him and his followers faced hostility from the people of Mecca (Paran), they had to leave the city. They fled to the City of "Yathrib" which was called later "Madina" where Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him continued to spread Islam to all of the Arabs and then later to the countries near by".

* your qoute above I am fully aware of and gave you this history before, it is a muslim belief not a bible one at all in any which way, can be attributed to Islam.


So basically there is no quote in bible text to the coming of Mohamed either by name or direct prophecy to his actions, unlike the prophecys of Jesus where it is foretold of his faimily line, ministry and death.
It is easy to use one or two bible qutes to interpret a multitude of things but this stretches a cryptic message to the extremes.
Unless of course you have nother biblical qoute Ive missed, there is non to Muhammad, and I dont recall Jesus expressing any mention of him coming either.

[farhad]

Originally posted by Angiebabe
According to Islam's history, when Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him and his followers faced hostility from the people of Mecca (Paran), they had to leave the city. They fled to the City of "Yathrib" which was called later "Madina" where Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him continued to spread Islam to all of the Arabs and then later to the countries near by.


So basically there is no quote in bible text to the coming of Mohamed either by name or direct prophecy to his actions, unlike the prophecys of Jesus where it is foretold of his faimily line, ministry and death.
It is easy to use one or two bible qutes to interpret a multitude of things but this stretches a cryptic message to the extremes.
Unless of course you have nother biblical qoute Ive missed, there is non to Muhammad, and I dont recall Jesus expressing any mention of him coming either.

Try analysing the text I provided, it says this prophet will be born in Paran (Mecca), Mohammeds name is mentioned in king Of solomon as Mahammadim. There are lose more like the liberation of 10000 comapnions of Mecca which Bible foretells. Comforter is the same meaning as name mohammed. Greeks named this Prophet Parakletos, which means praiseworthy which is the same meaning for Mohammed.


This clip is taken from passionate of Christ, Jesus mentions Mohammeds name in aramaic as Munahma which in Syriac means Praised one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0NDZxIIHb6w

[AngRemembered]

Still no mention of the name Muhammad, and even if there was, why do Muslims accept the word of the Bible yet still refute the claim in that divine inspired scripture that Jesus was the son of God, not a Prophet.

Why do Muslims see Jesus as a prophet yet clearly he is guilty of blasphemy? The Danish newspaper was condemmed by Islam for didpicting Allah in cartoon images yet still nowhere near the insult that Jesus himself made by HIS own claims.

You can accept one or the other, either the Bible is inspired Holy scripture or Jesus is a fraud, having both makes for yet another man made and incredibly hypocritical religion worthy of no substance whatsoever.

And what of Muhammads taking of Mecca the slaughter in dooing so, no work of God no miraculous victory just a stonger army with Muhammad working alone, like I have said all man made religions are for the sole purpose of man dominating man by death.
Whilst the Bible stays unchanged Gods lawa is and always has been thou shalt not kill, do muslims just ignore this command or just dont like it?

[farhad]

Originally posted by Angiebabe
Still no mention of the name Muhammad, and even if there was, why do Muslims accept the word of the Bible yet still refute the claim in that divine inspired scripture that Jesus was the son of God, not a Prophet.[/b]

We cant accept something that was tampered by men, changing Gods word, the laughable scientific errors, pornographic materials as described in the Bible, the treatment of slaves and saying white is superior to black (People of Ham), Islam cannot attribute these things to almighty and the merciful, we believe these things were not their in original Bible but later on it was changed by men. But Muslims believe there still remains some passages which haven't been tampered with like the prophecy of mohammed.


[quote]Whilst the Bible stays unchanged Gods lawa is and always has been thou shalt not kill, do muslims just ignore this command or just dont like it?

Lol I can find various places in the Bible which says those who dont accept chrisitanity then kill all of them, men, children and women. These things are not in the quran accept killing is permissable during when underaatack or ware but under strict circumstances.

Now your being ignorant, and denying the prophecy of Paran (Mecca) liberated by the 10000 which is in the Bible as well as this prophecy fulfilled when Mohammed arrived with 10,000 mens, which in bible describes as saint and conquered Mecca, I think you have not read information i provided you. Mohammads name was mentioned in king of Solomon, in Aramaic Bible, even the word Muslim appears in Aramaic bible, the language of jesus.


Claim: Mohammed Is Mentioned In Song of Songs
Another claim is made that in the book Song of Songs (Also called Song of Solomon), the coming of Mohammed is prophesied.

The verse in question (translation is the author's) is as follows:

Song of Songs 5:16 His mouth is most sweet; and he is altogether lovely. This is my beloved, and this is my friend, O daughters of Jerusalem.
The assertion is that chapter 5 is a prophecy of a prophet yet to come. But, if we take a look at a transliteration of the Hebrew text we will see what the real principle of the matter is:

Chiku mamtakim v'khulo machamadim zeh dodi v'zeh re'i b'not yerushalayim.
If you look at the word "machamadim" we can start to see the issue. Mohammed is a name that comes from the Hebrew root of "lovely" or "cute" or "desirable" and as such, Muslims try to use the word "lovely" in each instance to refer to Mohammed. These Muslims are making it so we can't use our own language without it somehow being a prophecy. In Hebrew Mohammed is pronounced as machamad, remove the c it becomes in Arabic Mohammed. Just like Joseph in Arabic is pronounced as Yousef.

[farhad]

Originally posted by Angiebabe
Still no mention of the name Muhammad, and even if there was, why do Muslims accept the word of the Bible yet still refute the claim in that divine inspired scripture that Jesus was the son of God, not a Prophet.

Why do Muslims see Jesus as a prophet yet clearly he is guilty of blasphemy? The Danish newspaper was condemmed by Islam for didpicting Allah in cartoon images yet still nowhere near the insult that Jesus himself made by HIS own claims.

You can accept one or the other, either the Bible is inspired Holy scripture or Jesus is a fraud, having both makes for yet another man made and incredibly hypocritical religion worthy of no substance whatsoever.

And what of Muhammads taking of Mecca the slaughter in dooing so, no work of God no miraculous victory just a stonger army with Muhammad working alone, like I have said all man made religions are for the sole purpose of man dominating man by death.
Whilst the Bible stays unchanged Gods lawa is and always has been thou shalt not kill, do muslims just ignore this command or just dont like it?

Islam is a monthiestic religion believing in one God which has no end and beginning, Jesus had a beginning, Jesus as well as Mohammed were men who came to deliver the message, Jesus only came to people of israel, he didn't come for every mandkind as stated in Bible and Quran, Mohammad the final prophet came for whole of humanity, and Quran is the final revelation of God.

[farhad]

Originally posted by Angiebabe
Still no mention of the name Muhammad, and even if there was, why do Muslims accept the word of the Bible yet still refute the claim in that divine inspired scripture that Jesus was the son of God, not a Prophet.

Why do Muslims see Jesus as a prophet yet clearly he is guilty of blasphemy? The Danish newspaper was condemmed by Islam for didpicting Allah in cartoon images yet still nowhere near the insult that Jesus himself made by HIS own claims.


Jesus using the word "Muslim" from Armaic bible in Luke 6:40:

Let us look at Luke 6:40 from my N.I.V. Bible "A student is not above his teacher, but everyone who is fully trained will be like his teacher."

Now taken from Aramaic Bible here it is in the language:

"Ein talmeed na'leh 'al rabbo; shekken kal adam she'MUSHLAM yihyeh k'rabbo."

Now Arabic translation of Luke 6:40 will be Translation in English: "No student can be above his teacher, but everyone that is a MUSLIM, can be as his teacher."

Important Note: The Hebrew word "Mushlam" comes from the root "Sh L M". "Shalom" which comes from the same root means "peace". The Arabic word "Muslim" comes from the root "S L M". "Salam" means "peace". "Salem" means "safe". Also taken from the Aramic Bible society online.

Just do a little bit of research Jesus was clearly a muslim and used the word Muslim which in Aramaic or Hebrew means Mushlam. To understand the Bible its best to learn to read hebrew, Jesus never spoke in english.

Ahmad changed to "Munahammana" and then to "Paraqleyta in Greek meaning the Praised one.


Mohammed fought in a war against tribes the Pagans of Mecca who were racist, idol worshippers, oppressors of their people, when he conquered mecca he did not kill any innocent human being, rather forgave the ones who tortured him and his people later on they converted to Islam.

[usaFtw]

Originally posted by Angiebabe
You can accept one or the other, either the Bible is inspired Holy scripture or Jesus is a fraud, having both makes for yet another man made and incredibly hypocritical religion worthy of no substance whatsoever.


Jesus spoke Aramiac, he was arabic/semetic. Not African, European, Or Desi (Pakistani, Indian, etc..). So making Jesus an identity just confuses you more after you realise facts, why becuase the media has installed on you what it wants you to be. In terms of politics.. Fighting for Jesus is not fighting for your identity, so stop being so stubborn and sticking to the point that "Oh muslims this that and the other, idenditfy and hog jesus just to become more Western". Jesus was a prophet in Islam come to speak the message of god, like the others, JESUS'S MESSAGE DOESNT SEEM TO BE WORKING EVIDENTLY END OF... mohammeds seems like is failing to work, thats why "everyone" is waiting for the next Messiah. in the bible he was something else, I DONT CARE!

Originally posted by Angiebabe

And what of Muhammads taking of Mecca the slaughter in dooing so, no work of God no miraculous victory just a stonger army with Muhammad working alone, like I have said all man made religions are for the sole purpose of man dominating man by death.

Whilst the Bible stays unchanged Gods lawa is and always has been thou shalt not kill, do muslims just ignore this command or just dont like it?

dont come saying Mohammed Killed and Christanity is all about "Thou Shall Not Kill" bullcrap, "Christanity" killed and enslaved African slaves for over 300 years. Not to mention millions of people killed all over the world in the name of Colonization and Christianity.

So go get your facts right before you go spew your hatred bull crap on others, just to be accepted in "Western Society" by preaching Jesus this Jesus that. Jesus was aramiac than he was African, european, desi or chinese.

Im tired of double standards coming up here, just becuase you see it in the media you think its ok to pull your crap out.


sorry but that had to be said, some people clearly have agendas beyond there scope. should be pointed out. :banana:

[farhad]

Originally posted by usaFtw
Originally posted by Angiebabe
You can accept one or the other, either the Bible is inspired Holy scripture or Jesus is a fraud, having both makes for yet another man made and incredibly hypocritical religion worthy of no substance whatsoever.


Jesus spoke Aramiac, he was arabic/semetic. Not African, European, Or Desi (Pakistani, Indian, etc..). So making Jesus an identity just confuses you more after you realise facts, why becuase the media has installed on you what it wants you to be. In terms of politics.. Fighting for Jesus is not fighting for your identity, so stop being so stubborn and sticking to the point that "Oh muslims this that and the other, idenditfy and hog jesus just to become more Western". Jesus was a prophet in Islam come to speak the message of god, like the others, JESUS'S MESSAGE DOESNT SEEM TO BE WORKING EVIDENTLY END OF... mohammeds seems like is failing to work, thats why "everyone" is waiting for the next Messiah. in the bible he was something else, I DONT CARE!

Originally posted by Angiebabe

And what of Muhammads taking of Mecca the slaughter in dooing so, no work of God no miraculous victory just a stonger army with Muhammad working alone, like I have said all man made religions are for the sole purpose of man dominating man by death.

Whilst the Bible stays unchanged Gods lawa is and always has been thou shalt not kill, do muslims just ignore this command or just dont like it?

dont come saying Mohammed Killed and Christanity is all about "Thou Shall Not Kill" bullcrap, "Christanity" killed and enslaved African slaves for over 300 years. Not to mention millions of people killed all over the world in the name of Colonization and Christianity.

So go get your facts right before you go spew your hatred bull c**p on others, just to be accepted in "Western Society" by preaching Jesus this Jesus that. Jesus was aramiac than he was African, european, desi or chinese.

Im tired of double standards coming up here, just becuase you see it in the media you think its ok to pull your c**p out.


sorry but that had to be said, some people clearly have agendas beyond there scope. should be pointed out. :banana:

Well said usaFtw, question to Angiebabe, what was Bible referring to when about the City of Paran conquered with him 10,000 saint. Which Prophecy and who is it talking about. We clearly se from Mohammeds history that when he conquered Mecca he came with 10,000 companions. Paran is said to in south Saudie arabia which is where the desert of mecca is located.

Yes according to language jesus spoke in was Aramaic/semetic language which is mainly spoken in Arabic.

[Matt10k]

What does all this mean to a none religious person?

If this thread was actually on subject- your original point that the Kabaa cube shrine of Mecca is the 'centre of the Earth' and so everyone should become a Muslim, is still rubbish- the centre of the Earth of course being the core.

Did you ever address this or will I have to sit through another 7 pages of religious quotations that mean absolutely nothing to me before I'll find out what the hell you meant when you said it was the centre of the Earth?

[farhad]

Originally posted by Matt10k
What does all this mean to a none religious person?

If this thread was actually on subject- your original point that the Kabaa cube shrine of Mecca is the 'centre of the Earth' and so everyone should become a Muslim, is still rubbish- the centre of the Earth of course being the core.

Did you ever address this or will I have to sit through another 7 pages of religious quotations that mean absolutely nothing to me before I'll find out what the hell you meant when you said it was the centre of the Earth?

I showed from the Bible that Islam and the final Prophet was clearly prophecised in the Bible, his name was mention in Hewbrew and bible or Aramaic as Munahma and Machammadim in King of Solon in hebrew. Jesus used the Word "Muslim" as "Mushlam" and said "if you are good mushlam", the story of 10,000 saints with the he who conquer the land of Paran forom, yathreb ( medina) clearly describes when Prophet conquered Mecca and got with him 10,000 companions, who was Bible talking about. Paran is said to be in Mecca today, just searche but Chrisitans deny this. It was a reply by the to the poster who wanted me to show where mohammed was mentioned in the Bible. If think i'm blabbering then you can check it.:thumbs:

[Matt10k]

Originally posted by farhad
Originally posted by Matt10k
What does all this mean to a none religious person?

If this thread was actually on subject- your original point that the Kabaa cube shrine of Mecca is the 'centre of the Earth' and so everyone should become a Muslim, is still rubbish- the centre of the Earth of course being the core.

Did you ever address this or will I have to sit through another 7 pages of religious quotations that mean absolutely nothing to me before I'll find out what the hell you meant when you said it was the centre of the Earth?

I showed from the Bible that Islam and the final Prophet was clearly prophecised in the Bible, his name was mention in Hewbrew and bible or Aramaic as Munahma and Machammadim in King of Solon in hebrew. Jesus used the Word "Muslim" as "Mushlam" and said "if you are good mushlam", the story of 10,000 saints with the he who conquer the land of Paran forom, yathreb ( medina) clearly describes when Prophet conquered Mecca and got with him 10,000 companions, who was Bible talking about. Paran is said to be in Mecca today, just searche but Chrisitans deny this. It was a reply by the to the poster who wanted me to show where mohammed was mentioned in the Bible. If think i'm blabbering then you can check it.:thumbs:

Nah it's ok, I'm not religious and wouldn't believe half of what I read in the bible anyway- it'd be like giving origin of the species to a diehard creationist :bigsmile:

[farhad]

Prophet Mohammed was also foretold in Hindu scripture even by name and foretells his history thousands of years earlier in their book, it also says Mohammed will come and speak the truth, this Prophecy was also confirmed by a famous hindu scholar Professor Pundit Vaid Parkash, that the scripture describes no one but Prophet Mohammed. You can see the book he did on this matter. http://www.answering-christianity.com/adeel_khan/Rebuttal_to_Faith_Freedom.htm

As the Quran said we have mentioned about him in their scriptures.

[farhad]

Originally posted by Matt10k
Originally posted by farhad
Originally posted by Matt10k
What does all this mean to a none religious person?

If this thread was actually on subject- your original point that the Kabaa cube shrine of Mecca is the 'centre of the Earth' and so everyone should become a Muslim, is still rubbish- the centre of the Earth of course being the core.

Did you ever address this or will I have to sit through another 7 pages of religious quotations that mean absolutely nothing to me before I'll find out what the hell you meant when you said it was the centre of the Earth?

I showed from the Bible that Islam and the final Prophet was clearly prophecised in the Bible, his name was mention in Hewbrew and bible or Aramaic as Munahma and Machammadim in King of Solon in hebrew. Jesus used the Word "Muslim" as "Mushlam" and said "if you are good mushlam", the story of 10,000 saints with the he who conquer the land of Paran forom, yathreb ( medina) clearly describes when Prophet conquered Mecca and got with him 10,000 companions, who was Bible talking about. Paran is said to be in Mecca today, just searche but Chrisitans deny this. It was a reply by the to the poster who wanted me to show where mohammed was mentioned in the Bible. If think i'm blabbering then you can check it.:thumbs:

Nah it's ok, I'm not religious and wouldn't believe half of what I read in the bible anyway- it'd be like giving origin of the species to a diehard creationist :bigsmile:

Bible is a miraculous Book but also tampered, just study look at those verse in the Bible then look into Wikipedia of Prophet Mohammeds history, you will se a clear prophecy. Furthermore just look at this short quote from Issaiah that talks about coming of this comforter:

It is mentioned in the book of Isaiah chapter 29 verse 12:

"And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned."

It is well-known in Islamic history Prophet was illerrate who could not read or write, he spoke what Angel revealed to him, which Quran means to recite. When Archangel Gabrail commanded Muhammad (pbuh) by saying Iqra - "Read", he replied, "I am not learned".

Just look at this verse, its kind of shocking.

[Nurse57]

"Just look at this verse, its kind of shocking."

No if you happen to believe it is all a load of old bollocks. There is no point quoting the bible to prove your point about the quran, as that is (imho) a load of bollocks too.

In fact, if the quran is the one true book to live your life by, then what are you doing quoting the bible to give it some validity? If the bible is not the "truth" then it must be a lie. So you are using a lie to give your "truth" some validity.
What gives?

If you are going to reply, can you please do so with your own words and not quotes from a book that has no meaning to me.

[Matt10k]

Farhad- I told you I wasn't religious, so why keep sending me u2u's- saying 'read this passage' or whatever!?

You won't convert me! :joker:

I already asked you to explain your points without quoting a load of religious passages that I don't believe or care about and you immediately wrote a load of stuff about the bible!

Is it a joke?

[farhad]

Originally posted by Nurse57
"Just look at this verse, its kind of shocking."

No if you happen to believe it is all a load of old ********. There is no point quoting the bible to prove your point about the quran, as that is (imho) a load of ******** too.

If you are going to reply, can you please do so with your own words and not quotes from a book that has no meaning to me.

"And when Jesus son of Mary said: O Children of Israel! Lo! I am the messenger of Allah unto you, confirming that which was (revealed) before me in the Torah, and bringing good tidings of a messenger who cometh after me, whose name is Ahmad (the Praised One)." (Qur'an 61:6)

Quran says Jesus said there is a messenger coming after him mentioned in Bible. and if you go back to the Bible, Jesus did say someone will come after him, and person he described exactly matches Mohammed. Jesus also said that prophet will be a descendent of Ishmael, and muslims believe Mohammed was descendatn of ishmael. the word Muslim is also mentioned hidden in the aramaic Bible. Sounds miraculous, and Jesus said in tat language he was a mushlam.

If the bible is not the "truth" then it must be a lie. So you are using a lie to give your "truth" some validity.
What gives?

You misunderstood me, yes I did say Bible was distorted but also said their some parts of the Bible hasn't changed, like the prophecy of the final Prophet.

[FrenchAffair]

Originally posted by farhad
Sorry, guys it not a popaganda, its science.:bigsmile:

[18] The Kaaba was thought to be at the center of the world, with the Gate of Heaven directly above it. The Kaaba marked the location where the divine world intersected with the mundane, and the embedded Black Stone was a further symbol of this as a meteorite that had fallen from the sky and linked heaven and earth.[19]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaaba

In the world map Mecca is in the centre of earth if you just google through. In astronomy book it says Ka'bah in Mecca was a meteorite that hit Earth.

The Kabaa has significance in other religions than Islam. It was a Pagan shrine... then Muhammad destoryed the idols in it except for Al'alah the Moon God of the Quarish.... which became the basis for the Islamic religion.

[FrenchAffair]

Kaba being the centre of earth and it is in astronomic books that Kabaa was also a meteorite that hit the earth, how is that a false claim?

No, the Kabaa was built by Abraham according to Islam. Only the one corrner stone that is black was supposed to be a meterorite... but even that is false.

In regards to science, watch the video footage of nobal prize winners non-muslim famous scientist have said after they read shocking verses from the Quran, such as Professor Kieth Moore.:bigsmile:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73EfykhtXsE&feature=related

Kieth moore hasn't won a nobel prize. He hasn't made any scientific achivement notable tbh.


I do respect of other faith as Quran tells muslims to respect people of other like people of the book.

Have you ever read the Qur'an?

"The infidels should not think that they can get away from us. Prepare against them whatever arms and weaponry you can muster so that you may terrorize them." Qur'an 8:59

"Those who reject [Islamic] Faith, Allah will not forgive them nor guide them to any path except the way to Hell, to dwell therein forever. And this to Allah is easy." Qur'an 4:168

"I shall terrorize the infidels. So wound their bodies and incapacitate them because they oppose Allah and His Apostle." Qur'an:8:12

Thousands of verses more like that bro from the Qur'an.

[FrenchAffair]

Originally posted by farhad
To go to heaven I think everyone should go to Mecca as the gates of heaven is directly above it, and this is where God lives in heaven, and muslim call Kabaa the house of God.

Then how come Muhammad was lifted into heaven in Jerusalem according to the Qur'an?

[FrenchAffair]

Originally posted by farhad
Originally posted by Lauren
You have absolutely no respect for people of other faiths/no faith at all.



Quran tells muslim not abuse Gods of other religion:

[6:108] Do not abuse the idols they set up beside GOD, lest they blaspheme and abuse GOD, out of ignorance. We have adorned the works of every group in their eyes. Ultimately, they return to their Lord, then He informs them of everything they had done.

This verse says to muslims do not make a mockery of God of other religions as this is in itself blaspheming against God/Allah.


Allah was a idol, it was one of hundreds of idols that the pagans of Arabia worships durring the time of muhammad. Muhammad being of the Quarish worshiped the Moon God Al'alalh. When Muhammad captured Mecca he destoryed all the idols except for Al'alalh, the Arabian moon God. This was the basis of "Allah" of the Qur'an.

[FrenchAffair]

Originally posted by farhad
Originally posted by Tom
Originally posted by farhad
Originally posted by Lauren
You have absolutely no respect for people of other faiths/no faith at all.



Quran tells muslim not abuse Gods of other religion:

[6:108] Do not abuse the idols they set up beside GOD, lest they blaspheme and abuse GOD, out of ignorance. We have adorned the works of every group in their eyes. Ultimately, they return to their Lord, then He informs them of everything they had done.

This verse says to muslims do not make a mockery of God of other religions as this is in itself blaspheming against God/Allah.

The first commandment is 'Thou shalt have no other Gods before me' (Exodus 20), meaning do not worship any other God. So which religion is the "right" one to follow and which God should be worshipped? Religions are contradictory to eachother. Proof that they're non existent? Possibly.

In Quran it give people free choice to practise their own faith, No coumpulsion in Islam is stated, any forced conversion with the sword is totally forbidden in Islam. The teaching should be passed peacefully, not brutally.

"O you People of the Book to whom the Scripture has been given, believe in what We have (now) revealed, confirming and verifying what was possessed by you, before We destroy your faces beyond all recognition, turning you on your backs, and curse you as We cursed the Sabbath-breakers, for the decision of Allah Must be executed." Qur'an 4:47

[farhad]

Originally posted by FrenchAffair
Originally posted by farhad
To go to heaven I think everyone should go to Mecca as the gates of heaven is directly above it, and this is where God lives in heaven, and muslim call Kabaa the house of God.

Then how come Muhammad was lifted into heaven in Jerusalem according to the Qur'an?

The Kabaa Shrine is mentioned in every major world religious scriptures, there was this painting of wilderness place, and you can see the cube on the painting, showing Abraham. Pilgrimage to Mecca is even mentioned in the Bible. According archeologist they believe before Islam Jews, Hindus and christians used to do pilgrim to Mecca. The docmentary is there. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzJKhaA47CA

[farhad]

Originally posted by FrenchAffair
Originally posted by farhad
Originally posted by Tom
Originally posted by farhad
Originally posted by Lauren
You have absolutely no respect for people of other faiths/no faith at all.



Quran tells muslim not abuse Gods of other religion:

[6:108] Do not abuse the idols they set up beside GOD, lest they blaspheme and abuse GOD, out of ignorance. We have adorned the works of every group in their eyes. Ultimately, they return to their Lord, then He informs them of everything they had done.

This verse says to muslims do not make a mockery of God of other religions as this is in itself blaspheming against God/Allah.

The first commandment is 'Thou shalt have no other Gods before me' (Exodus 20), meaning do not worship any other God. So which religion is the "right" one to follow and which God should be worshipped? Religions are contradictory to eachother. Proof that they're non existent? Possibly.

In Quran it give people free choice to practise their own faith, No coumpulsion in Islam is stated, any forced conversion with the sword is totally forbidden in Islam. The teaching should be passed peacefully, not brutally.

"O you People of the Book to whom the Scripture has been given, believe in what We have (now) revealed, confirming and verifying what was possessed by you, before We destroy your faces beyond all recognition, turning you on your backs, and curse you as We cursed the Sabbath-breakers, for the decision of Allah Must be executed." Qur'an 4:47

hanking, this refers to afterlife, and what this says, if after giving many signs of the truth, the existance of God, and people reject, then they will be accountable for their own action. But those who havven't never been shown signs and preached of oneness of God then Allah allows to go to heaven depending on their deeds.

[farhad]

Originally posted by FrenchAffair
Originally posted by farhad
Originally posted by Lauren
You have absolutely no respect for people of other faiths/no faith at all.



Quran tells muslim not abuse Gods of other religion:

[6:108] Do not abuse the idols they set up beside GOD, lest they blaspheme and abuse GOD, out of ignorance. We have adorned the works of every group in their eyes. Ultimately, they return to their Lord, then He informs them of everything they had done.

This verse says to muslims do not make a mockery of God of other religions as this is in itself blaspheming against God/Allah.


Allah was a idol, it was one of hundreds of idols that the pagans of Arabia worships durring the time of muhammad. Muhammad being of the Quarish worshiped the Moon God Al'alalh. When Muhammad captured Mecca he destoryed all the idols except for Al'alalh, the Arabian moon God. This was the basis of "Allah" of the Qur'an.

Allah is an arabic name for God, the word Allah has no plurals, defining one god, pagans worshipped hundereds whilst of Gods in the name of Allah.

[Matt10k]

Where does the flying spaghetti monster fit into all of this? :banana:

[FrenchAffair]

Originally posted by farhad
Originally posted by FrenchAffair
Originally posted by farhad
To go to heaven I think everyone should go to Mecca as the gates of heaven is directly above it, and this is where God lives in heaven, and muslim call Kabaa the house of God.

Then how come Muhammad was lifted into heaven in Jerusalem according to the Qur'an?

The Kabaa Shrine is mentioned in every major world religious scriptures, there was this painting of wilderness place, and you can see the cube on the painting, showing Abraham. Pilgrimage to Mecca is even mentioned in the Bible. According archeologist they believe before Islam Jews, Hindus and christians used to do pilgrim to Mecca. The docmentary is there. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzJKhaA47CA

That doesn't awnser my question. If the gates of heaven are directly above Mecca... why did Muhammad goto Jerusalem and be raised into heaven from there (according to the Qur'an)?

[FrenchAffair]

Originally posted by farhad
Originally posted by FrenchAffair
Originally posted by farhad
Originally posted by Lauren
You have absolutely no respect for people of other faiths/no faith at all.



Quran tells muslim not abuse Gods of other religion:

[6:108] Do not abuse the idols they set up beside GOD, lest they blaspheme and abuse GOD, out of ignorance. We have adorned the works of every group in their eyes. Ultimately, they return to their Lord, then He informs them of everything they had done.

This verse says to muslims do not make a mockery of God of other religions as this is in itself blaspheming against God/Allah.


Allah was a idol, it was one of hundreds of idols that the pagans of Arabia worships durring the time of muhammad. Muhammad being of the Quarish worshiped the Moon God Al'alalh. When Muhammad captured Mecca he destoryed all the idols except for Al'alalh, the Arabian moon God. This was the basis of "Allah" of the Qur'an.

Allah is an arabic name for God, the word Allah has no plurals, defining one god, pagans worshipped hundereds whilst of Gods in the name of Allah.

In modern Arabic, which evolved in a culture in which the only acceptable God was that of Islam.

In Arameic Al'alalh was the Pagan moon God of Mecca, the Qurarish tribe of which Muhammad was in high position with. When he conqured Mecca he destoryed all the idols of the Kabah except for the Idol which his tribe worshiped, Al'alalh... which turned into Allah... the "one" god.

[FrenchAffair]

Originally posted by farhad this refers to afterlife,

Which is never far away for an "infidel" around faithful muslims.

[farhad]

No, the Kabaa was built by Abraham according to Islam. Only the one corrner stone that is black was supposed to be a meterorite... but even that is false.

I can show you hidden verses from Bible and Torah showing clear proof Abraham built the Kaaba.



[/quote]

Kieth moore hasn't won a nobel prize. He hasn't made any scientific achivement notable tbh. [/quote]


I do respect of other faith as Quran tells muslims to respect people of other like people of the book.

Have you ever read the Qur'an?

"The infidels should not think that they can get away from us. Prepare against them whatever arms and weaponry you can muster so that you may terrorize them." Qur'an 8:59

Your Quoting out of context, If you read 8:58 it talks about a war that if the infidels betray or oppress you then you should also fight them and then read 8:61 it says if they resort to peace then you should stop immediately, Quran guides on how one should defend themselves.

[8:58] When you are betrayed by a group of people, you shall mobilize against them in the same manner. GOD does not love the betrayers.

[8:59] Let not those who disbelieve think that they can get away with it; they can never escape.

[8:60] You shall prepare for them all the power you can muster, and all the equipment you can mobilize, that you may frighten the enemies of GOD, your enemies, as well as others who are not known to you; GOD knows them. Whatever you spend in the cause of GOD will be repaid to you generously, without the least injustice.

[8:61] If they resort to peace, so shall you, and put your trust in GOD. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient.

This is some of, before you quote something please contextualise, dont quote part of a verse.

[farhad]

Originally posted by FrenchAffair
Originally posted by farhad this refers to afterlife,

Which is never far away for an "infidel" around faithful muslims.

Are you a believer?

[Matt10k]

Yay, a bizillion religious quotes to read through! Thanks again farhad!

I'm going to :devil: aren't I?



:joker:

Aww, you edited your post. Now it isn't as funny :sad:

[FrenchAffair]

Originally posted by farhad
No, the Kabaa was built by Abraham according to Islam. Only the one corrner stone that is black was supposed to be a meterorite... but even that is false.

I can show you hidden verses from Bible and Torah showing clear proof Abraham built the Kaaba.





Kieth moore hasn't won a nobel prize. He hasn't made any scientific achivement notable tbh. [/quote]


I do respect of other faith as Quran tells muslims to respect people of other like people of the book.

Have you ever read the Qur'an?

"The infidels should not think that they can get away from us. Prepare against them whatever arms and weaponry you can muster so that you may terrorize them." Qur'an 8:59

Your Quoting out of context, If you read 8:58 it talks about a war that if the infidels betray or oppress you then you should also fight them and then read 8:61 it says if they resort to peace then you should stop immediately, Quran guides on how one should defend themselves.

[8:58] When you are betrayed by a group of people, you shall mobilize against them in the same manner. GOD does not love the betrayers.

[8:59] Let not those who disbelieve think that they can get away with it; they can never escape.

[8:60] You shall prepare for them all the power you can muster, and all the equipment you can mobilize, that you may frighten the enemies of GOD, your enemies, as well as others who are not known to you; GOD knows them. Whatever you spend in the cause of GOD will be repaid to you generously, without the least injustice.

[8:61] If they resort to peace, so shall you, and put your trust in GOD. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient.

This is some of, before you quote something please contextualise, dont quote part of a verse. [/quote]

Out of context? Explain:

Qur'an:9:88 "The Messenger and those who believe with him, strive hard and fight with their wealth and lives in Allah's Cause."
Qur'an:9:5 "Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war."
Qur'an:9:112 "The Believers fight in Allah's Cause, they slay and are slain, kill and are killed."
Qur'an:9:29 "Fight those who do not believe until they all surrender, paying the protective tax in submission."
Ishaq:325 "Muslims, fight in Allah's Cause. Stand firm and you will prosper. Help the Prophet, obey him, give him your allegiance, and your religion will be victorious."
Qur'an:8:39 "Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah."
Qur'an:8:39 "So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world)."
Ishaq:324 "He said, 'Fight them so that there is no more rebellion, and religion, all of it, is for Allah only. Allah must have no rivals.'"
Qur'an:9:14 "Fight them and Allah will punish them by your hands, lay them low, and cover them with shame. He will help you over them."
Ishaq:300 "I am fighting in Allah's service. This is piety and a good deed. In Allah's war I do not fear as others should. For this fighting is righteous, true, and good."
Ishaq:587 "Our onslaught will not be a weak faltering affair. We shall fight as long as we live. We will fight until you turn to Islam, humbly seeking refuge. We will fight not caring whom we meet. We will fight whether we destroy ancient holdings or newly gotten gains. We have mutilated every opponent. We have driven them violently before us at the command of Allah and Islam. We will fight until our religion is established. And we will plunder them, for they must suffer disgrace."
Qur'an:8:65 "O Prophet, urge the faithful to fight. If there are twenty among you with determination they will vanquish two hundred; if there are a hundred then they will slaughter a thousand unbelievers, for the infidels are a people devoid of understanding."
Ishaq:326 "Prophet exhort the believers to fight. If there are twenty good fighters they will defeat two hundred for they are a senseless people. They do not fight with good intentions nor for truth."
Bukhari:V4B52N63 "A man whose face was covered with an iron mask came to the Prophet and said, 'Allah's Apostle! Shall I fight or embrace Islam first?' The Prophet said, 'Embrace Islam first and then fight.' So he embraced Islam, and was martyred. Allah's Apostle said, 'A Little work, but a great reward.'"
Bukhari:V4B53N386 "Our Prophet, the Messenger of our Lord, ordered us to fight you till you worship Allah alone or pay us the Jizyah tribute tax in submission. Our Prophet has informed us that our Lord says: 'Whoever amongst us is killed as a martyr shall go to Paradise to lead such a luxurious life as he has never seen, and whoever survives shall become your master.'"
Muslim:C34B20N4668 "The Messenger said: 'Anybody who equips a warrior going to fight in the Way of Allah is like one who actually fights. And anybody who looks after his family in his absence is also like one who actually fights."
Qur'an:9:38 "Believers, what is the matter with you, that when you are asked to go forth and fight in Allah's Cause you cling to the earth? Do you prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? Unless you go forth, He will afflict and punish you with a painful doom, and put others in your place."
Qur'an:9:123 "Fight the unbelievers around you, and let them find harshness in you."
Qur'an:8:72 "Those who accepted Islam and left their homes to fight in Allah's Cause with their possessions and persons, and those who gave (them) asylum, aid, and shelter, those who harbored them - these are allies of one another. You are not responsible for protecting those who embraced Islam but did not leave their homes [to fight] until they do so." [Another translation reads:] "You are only called to protect Muslims who fight."
Muslim:C9B1N31 "I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify to the fact that there is no god but Allah, and believe in me (that) I am the Messenger and in all that I have brought."
Bukhari:V9B84N59 "Whoever says this will save his property and life from me.'"
Qur'an:8:73 "The unbelieving infidels are allies. Unless you (Muslims) aid each other (fighting as one united block to make Allah's religion victorious), there will be confusion and mischief. Those who accepted Islam, left their homes to fight in Allah's Cause (al-Jihad), as well as those who give them asylum, shelter, and aid - these are (all) Believers: for them is pardon and bountiful provision (in Paradise)."
Tabari IX:69 "Arabs are the most noble people in lineage, the most prominent, and the best in deeds. We were the first to respond to the call of the Prophet. We are Allah's helpers and the viziers of His Messenger. We fight people until they believe in Allah. He who believes in Allah and His Messenger has protected his life and possessions from us. As for one who disbelieves, we will fight him forever in the Cause of Allah. Killing him is a small matter to us."
Qur'an:48:16 "Say (Muhammad) to the wandering desert Arabs who lagged behind: 'You shall be invited to fight against a people given to war with mighty prowess. You shall fight them until they surrender and submit. If you obey, Allah will grant you a reward, but if you turn back, as you did before, He will punish you with a grievous torture."
Qur'an:48:22 "If the unbelieving infidels fight against you, they will retreat. (Such has been) the practice (approved) of Allah in the past: no change will you find in the ways of Allah."
Qur'an:47:4 "When you clash with the unbelieving Infidels in battle (fighting Jihad in Allah's Cause), smite their necks until you overpower them, killing and wounding many of them. At length, when you have thoroughly subdued them, bind them firmly, making (them) captives. Thereafter either generosity or ransom (them based upon what benefits Islam) until the war lays down its burdens. Thus are you commanded by Allah to continue carrying out Jihad against the unbelieving infidels until they submit to Islam."
Qur'an:47:31 "And We shall try you until We know those among you who are the fighters."
Tabari VI:138 "Those present at the oath of Aqabah had sworn an allegiance to Muhammad. It was a pledge of war against all men. Allah had permitted fighting."
Tabari VI:139 "Allah had given his Messenger permission to fight by revealing the verse 'And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is all for Allah.'"
Qur'an:9:19 "Do you make the giving of drink to pilgrims, or the maintenance of the Mosque, equal to those who fight in the Cause of Allah? They are not comparable in the sight of Allah. Those who believe, and left their homes, striving with might, fighting in Allah's Cause with their goods and their lives, have the highest rank in the sight of Allah."
Ishaq:550 "The Muslims met them with their swords. They cut through many arms and skulls. Only confused cries and groans could be heard over our battle roars and snarling."
Qur'an:5:94 "Believers, Allah will make a test for you in the form of a little game in which you reach out for your lances. Any who fails this test will have a grievous punishment."
Ishaq:578 "Crushing the heads of the infidels and splitting their skulls with sharp swords, we continually thrust and cut at the enemy. Blood gushed from their deep wounds as the battle wore them down. We conquered bearing the Prophet's fluttering war banner. Our cavalry was submerged in rising dust, and our spears quivered, but by us the Prophet gained victory."
Tabari IX:22 "The Prophet continued to besiege the town, fighting them bitterly."
Tabari IX:25 "By Allah, I did not come to fight for nothing. I wanted a victory over Ta'if so that I might obtain a slave girl from them and make her pregnant."
Tabari IX:82 "The Messenger sent Khalid with an army of 400 to Harith [a South Arabian tribe] and ordered him to invite them to Islam for three days before he fought them. If they were to respond and submit, he was to teach them the Book of Allah, the Sunnah of His Prophet, and the requirements of Islam. If they should decline, then he was to fight them."
Tabari IX:88 "Abdallah Azdi came to the Messenger, embraced Islam, and became a good Muslim. Allah's Apostle invested Azdi with the authority over those who had surrendered and ordered him to fight the infidels from the tribes of Yemen. Azdi left with an army by the Messenger's command. The Muslims besieged them for a month. Then they withdrew, setting a trap. When the Yemenites went in pursuit, Azdi was able to inflict a heavy loss on them."
Ishaq:530 "Get out of his way, you infidel unbelievers. Every good thing goes with the Apostle. Lord, I believe in his word. We will fight you about its interpretations as we have fought you about its revelation with strokes that will remove heads from shoulders and make enemies of friends."
Muslim:C9B1N29 "Command For Fighting Against People So Long As They Do Not Profess That There Is No Ilah (God) But Allah And Muhammad Is His Messenger: When the Messenger breathed his last and Bakr was appointed Caliph, many Arabs chose to become apostates [rejected Islam]. Abu Bakr said: 'I will definitely fight against anyone who stops paying the Zakat tax, for it is an obligation. I will fight against them even to secure the cord used for hobbling the feet of a camel which they used to pay if they withhold it now.' Allah had justified fighting against those who refused to pay Zakat."
Muslim:C9B1N33 "The Prophet said: 'I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and they establish prostration prayer, and pay Zakat. If they do it, their blood and property are protected.'"
Muslim:C10B1N176 "Muhammad (may peace be upon him) sent us in a raiding party. We raided Huraqat in the morning. I caught hold of a man and he said: 'There is no god but Allah,' but I attacked him with a spear anyway. It once occurred to me that I should ask the Apostle about this. The Messenger said: 'Did he profess "There is no god but Allah," and even then you killed him?' I said: 'He made a profession out of the fear of the weapon I was threatening him with.' The Prophet said: 'Did you tear out his heart in order to find out whether it had professed truly or not?'"
Muslim:C20B1N4597 "The Prophet said at the conquest of Mecca: 'There is no migration now, but only Jihad, fighting for the Cause of Islam. When you are asked to set out on a Jihad expedition, you should readily do so.'"
Muslim:C28B20N4628 "Allah has undertaken to provide for one who leaves his home to fight for His Cause and to affirm the truth of His word; Allah will either admit him to Paradise or will bring him back home with his reward and booty."
Muslim:C28B20N4629 "The Messenger said: 'One who is wounded in the Way of Allah - and Allah knows best who is wounded in His Way - will appear on the Day of Judgment with his wound still bleeding. The color (of its discharge) will be blood, (but) its smell will be musk.'"
Muslim:C34B20N4652-3 "The Merit Of Jihad And Of Keeping Vigilance Over The Enemy: A man came to the Holy Prophet and said: 'Who is the best of men?' He replied: 'A man who fights staking his life and spending his wealth in Allah's Cause.'"
Muslim:C42B20N4684 "A desert Arab came to the Prophet and said: 'Messenger, one man fights for the spoils of war; another fights that he may be remembered, and one fights that he may see his (high) position (achieved as a result of his valor in fighting). Which of these is fighting in the Cause of Allah?' The Messenger of Allah said: 'Who fights so that the word of Allah is exalted is fighting in the Way of Allah.'"
Muslim:C53B20N4717 "The Prophet said: 'This religion will continue to exist, and a group of people from the Muslims will continue to fight for its protection until the Hour is established.'"
Bukhari:V5B59N288 "I witnessed a scene that was dearer to me than anything I had ever seen. Aswad came to the Prophet while Muhammad was urging the Muslims to fight the pagans. He said, 'We shall fight on your right and on your left and in front of you and behind you.' I saw the face of the Prophet getting bright with happiness, for that saying delighted him."
Bukhari:V5B59N290 "The believers who did not join the Ghazwa [Islamic raid or invasion] and those who fought are not equal in reward."
Qur'an:2:193 "Fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief) and religion is only for Allah. But if they cease/desist, let there be no hostility except against infidel disbelievers."
Qur'an:2:217 "They question you concerning fighting in the sacred month. Say: 'Fighting therein is a grave (matter); but to prevent access to Allah, to deny Him, to prevent access to the Sacred Mosque, to expel its members, and polytheism are worse than slaughter. Nor will they cease fighting you until they make you renegades from your religion. If any of you turn back and die in unbelief, your works will be lost and you will go to Hell. Surely those who believe and leave their homes to fight in Allah's Cause have the hope of Allah's mercy."
Qur'an:2:244 "Fight in Allah's Cause, and know that Allah hears and knows all."
Qur'an:2:246 "He said: 'Would you refrain from fighting if fighting were prescribed for you?' They said: 'How could we refuse to fight in Allah's Cause?'"
Ishaq:280 "The Apostle prepared for war in pursuance of Allah's command to fight his enemies and to fight the infidels who Allah commanded him to fight."
Qur'an:61:2 "O Muslims, why say one thing and do another? Grievously odious and hateful is it in the sight of Allah that you say that which you do not. Truly Allah loves those who fight in His Cause in a battle array, as if they were a solid cemented structure."
Bukhari:V4B52N61 "Allah's Apostle! We were absent from the first battle you fought against the pagans. If Allah gives us a chance to do battle, no doubt, He will see how bravely we fight."
Ishaq:398 "Ask them for their help. Thereby make the religion of Islam agreeable to them. And when you are resolved in the matter of religion concerning fighting your enemy you will have the advantage."
Qur'an:3:146 "How many prophets fought in Allah's Cause? With them (fought) myriads of godly men who were slain. They never lost heart if they met with disaster in Allah's Cause, nor did they weaken nor give in. Allah loves those who are firm and steadfast [warriors]."
Ishaq:393 "How many prophets has death in battle befallen and how many multitudes with him? They did not show weakness toward their enemies and were not humiliated when they suffered in the fight for Allah and their religion. That is steadfastness. Allah loves the steadfast."
Qur'an:3:153 "Behold! You ran off precipitately, climbing up the high hill without even casting a side glance at anyone, while the Messenger in your rear is calling you from your rear, urging you to fight. Allah gave you one distress after another by way of requital, to teach you not to grieve for the booty that had escaped you and for (the ill) that had befallen you."
Qur'an:3:154 "Say: 'Even if you had remained in your houses, those ordained to be slaughtered would have gone forth to the places where they were to slain."
Ishaq:440 "Helped by the Holy Spirit we smited Muhammad's foes. The Apostle sent a message to them with a sharp cutting sword."
Ishaq:470 "We attacked them fully armed, swords in hand, cutting through heads and skulls."
Qur'an:61:4 "Surely Allah loves those who fight in His Cause."
Qur'an:61:11 "Believers, shall I lead you to a bargain or trade that will save you from a painful torment? That you believe in Allah and His Messenger (Muhammad), and that you strive and fight in Allah's Cause with your property and your lives: That will be best for you!" Qur'an 61:12 "He will forgive you your sins, and admit you to Gardens under which rivers flow, and to beautiful mansions in Eden: that is indeed the Supreme Achievement. And another (favor) which you love: help from Allah for a speedy victory over your enemies."
Qur'an:8:5 "Your Lord ordered you out of your homes to fight for the true cause, even though some Muslims disliked it, and were averse (to fighting)."
Qur'an:24:53 "They swear their strongest oaths saying that if only you would command them. They would leave their homes (and go forth fighting in Allah's Cause). Say: 'Swear not; Obedience is (more) reasonable.'"
Qur'an:4:74 "Let those who fight in Allah's Cause sell this world's life for the hereafter. To him who fights in Allah's Cause, whether he is slain or victorious, We shall give him a reward."
Qur'an:4:75 "What reason have you that you should not fight in Allah's Cause?" [Another translation says:] "What is wrong with you that you do not fight for Allah?"
Qur'an:4:76 "Those who believe fight in the Cause of Allah."
Qur'an:4:77 "Have you not seen those to whom it was said: Withhold from fighting, perform the prayer and pay the zakat. But when orders for fighting were issued, a party of them feared men as they ought to have feared Allah. They say: 'Our Lord, why have You ordained fighting for us, why have You made war compulsory?'"
Qur'an:4:78 "Wherever you are, death will find you, even if you are in towers strong and high! So what is wrong with these people, that they fail to understand these simple words?"
Qur'an:4:84 "Then fight (Muhammad) in Allah's Cause. Incite the believers to fight with you."
Qur'an:4:94 "Believers, when you go abroad to fight wars in Allah's Cause, investigate carefully, and say not to anyone who greets you: 'You are not a believer!' Coveting the chance profits of this life (so that you may despoil him). With Allah are plenteous spoils and booty."
Qur'an:4:95 "Not equal are believers who sit home and receive no hurt and those who fight in Allah's Cause with their wealth and lives. Allah has granted a grade higher to those who fight with their possessions and bodies to those who sit home. Those who fight He has distinguished with a special reward."
Qur'an:4:100 "He who leaves his home in Allah's Cause finds abundant resources and many a refuge. Should he die as a refugee for Allah and His Messenger His reward becomes due and sure with Allah. When you travel through the earth there is no blame on you if you curtail your worship for fear unbelievers may attack you. In truth the disbelievers are your enemy."
Qur'an:4:102 "When you (Prophet) lead them in prayer, let some stand with you, taking their arms with them. When they finish their prostrations, let them take positions in the rear. And let others who have not yet prayed come - taking all precaution, and bearing arms. The Infidels wish, if you were negligent of your arms, to assault you in a rush. But there is no blame on you if you put away your arms because of the inconvenience of rain or because you are ill; but take precaution. For the Unbelieving Infidels Allah hath prepared a humiliating punishment."
Qur'an:4:104 "And do not relent in pursuing the enemy."


Hundreds of pages more where that came from too. And it's not like we are picking and chooseing... same verses Osama Bin Laden and ever other Muslim terrorist quotes. So obviously alot of muslims who disagree on you with "context".

[farhad]

Originally posted by FrenchAffair
Originally posted by farhad
Originally posted by FrenchAffair
Originally posted by farhad
To go to heaven I think everyone should go to Mecca as the gates of heaven is directly above it, and this is where God lives in heaven, and muslim call Kabaa the house of God.

Then how come Muhammad was lifted into heaven in Jerusalem according to the Qur'an?

The Kabaa Shrine is mentioned in every major world religious scriptures, there was this painting of wilderness place, and you can see the cube on the painting, showing Abraham. Pilgrimage to Mecca is even mentioned in the Bible. According archeologist they believe before Islam Jews, Hindus and christians used to do pilgrim to Mecca. The docmentary is there. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzJKhaA47CA

That doesn't awnser my question. If the gates of heaven are directly above Mecca... why did Muhammad goto Jerusalem and be raised into heaven from there (according to the Qur'an)?

Land of Jerusalem was one point the chosen nation, but after sending many Prophets to Jerusalem, Jews disobeyed them, Jesus was treated badly and they rejected him, in that point Allah decided to take that kingdom of them and then gave it to Arabia.

[FrenchAffair]

Originally posted by farhad
Originally posted by FrenchAffair
Originally posted by farhad this refers to afterlife,

Which is never far away for an "infidel" around faithful muslims.

Are you a believer?

Of the pagan moon god Al'alalh?

[FrenchAffair]

Originally posted by farhad
Land of Jerusalem was one point the chosen nation, but after sending many Prophets to Jerusalem, Jews disobeyed them, Jesus was treated badly and they rejected him,

As they were supposed to, God said himself that the Messiah would be rejected by his own people. The purpose of Jesus was not to redeem the Jews, but to open God's covanant to all man as he died for all their sins.



Originally posted by farhad in that point Allah decided to take that kingdom of them and then gave it to Arabia.

Jesus died in some odd 32ish AD.... Muhammad wasn't born for another 600 years. What was God doing in between?

And if that "kingdom" is not in Arabia... why is Jerusalem so important to Islam? Islams 3rd most holy site is there.

In fact.... after Muhammad the Islamic capith wasn't even centered in Arabia... it was centered in Syria... and then Iraq.

Do you ever know what your talking about mate? Up to 80 years ago Arabia wasn't much more than a giant desert with a few small settlements and a bunch of tribal nomads.

[farhad]

Originally posted by FrenchAffair
Originally posted by farhad
No, the Kabaa was built by Abraham according to Islam. Only the one corrner stone that is black was supposed to be a meterorite... but even that is false.

I can show you hidden verses from Bible and Torah showing clear proof Abraham built the Kaaba.





Kieth moore hasn't won a nobel prize. He hasn't made any scientific achivement notable tbh.


I do respect of other faith as Quran tells muslims to respect people of other like people of the book.

Have you ever read the Qur'an?

"The infidels should not think that they can get away from us. Prepare against them whatever arms and weaponry you can muster so that you may terrorize them." Qur'an 8:59

Your Quoting out of context, If you read 8:58 it talks about a war that if the infidels betray or oppress you then you should also fight them and then read 8:61 it says if they resort to peace then you should stop immediately, Quran guides on how one should defend themselves.

[8:58] When you are betrayed by a group of people, you shall mobilize against them in the same manner. GOD does not love the betrayers.

[8:59] Let not those who disbelieve think that they can get away with it; they can never escape.

[8:60] You shall prepare for them all the power you can muster, and all the equipment you can mobilize, that you may frighten the enemies of GOD, your enemies, as well as others who are not known to you; GOD knows them. Whatever you spend in the cause of GOD will be repaid to you generously, without the least injustice.

[8:61] If they resort to peace, so shall you, and put your trust in GOD. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient.

This is some of, before you quote something please contextualise, dont quote part of a verse. [/quote]

Out of context? Explain:

Qur'an:9:88 "The Messenger and those who believe with him, strive hard and fight with their wealth and lives in Allah's Cause."
Qur'an:9:5 "Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war."
Qur'an:9:112 "The Believers fight in Allah's Cause, they slay and are slain, kill and are killed."
Qur'an:9:29 "Fight those who do not believe until they all surrender, paying the protective tax in submission."
Ishaq:325 "Muslims, fight in Allah's Cause. Stand firm and you will prosper. Help the Prophet, obey him, give him your allegiance, and your religion will be victorious."
Qur'an:8:39 "Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah."
Qur'an:8:39 "So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world)."
Ishaq:324 "He said, 'Fight them so that there is no more rebellion, and religion, all of it, is for Allah only. Allah must have no rivals.'"
Qur'an:9:14 "Fight them and Allah will punish them by your hands, lay them low, and cover them with shame. He will help you over them."
Ishaq:300 "I am fighting in Allah's service. This is piety and a good deed. In Allah's war I do not fear as others should. For this fighting is righteous, true, and good."
Ishaq:587 "Our onslaught will not be a weak faltering affair. We shall fight as long as we live. We will fight until you turn to Islam, humbly seeking refuge. We will fight not caring whom we meet. We will fight whether we destroy ancient holdings or newly gotten gains. We have mutilated every opponent. We have driven them violently before us at the command of Allah and Islam. We will fight until our religion is established. And we will plunder them, for they must suffer disgrace."
Qur'an:8:65 "O Prophet, urge the faithful to fight. If there are twenty among you with determination they will vanquish two hundred; if there are a hundred then they will slaughter a thousand unbelievers, for the infidels are a people devoid of understanding."
Ishaq:326 "Prophet exhort the believers to fight. If there are twenty good fighters they will defeat two hundred for they are a senseless people. They do not fight with good intentions nor for truth."
Bukhari:V4B52N63 "A man whose face was covered with an iron mask came to the Prophet and said, 'Allah's Apostle! Shall I fight or embrace Islam first?' The Prophet said, 'Embrace Islam first and then fight.' So he embraced Islam, and was martyred. Allah's Apostle said, 'A Little work, but a great reward.'"
Bukhari:V4B53N386 "Our Prophet, the Messenger of our Lord, ordered us to fight you till you worship Allah alone or pay us the Jizyah tribute tax in submission. Our Prophet has informed us that our Lord says: 'Whoever amongst us is killed as a martyr shall go to Paradise to lead such a luxurious life as he has never seen, and whoever survives shall become your master.'"
Muslim:C34B20N4668 "The Messenger said: 'Anybody who equips a warrior going to fight in the Way of Allah is like one who actually fights. And anybody who looks after his family in his absence is also like one who actually fights."
Qur'an:9:38 "Believers, what is the matter with you, that when you are asked to go forth and fight in Allah's Cause you cling to the earth? Do you prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? Unless you go forth, He will afflict and punish you with a painful doom, and put others in your place."
Qur'an:9:123 "Fight the unbelievers around you, and let them find harshness in you."
Qur'an:8:72 "Those who accepted Islam and left their homes to fight in Allah's Cause with their possessions and persons, and those who gave (them) asylum, aid, and shelter, those who harbored them - these are allies of one another. You are not responsible for protecting those who embraced Islam but did not leave their homes [to fight] until they do so." [Another translation reads:] "You are only called to protect Muslims who fight."
Muslim:C9B1N31 "I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify to the fact that there is no god but Allah, and believe in me (that) I am the Messenger and in all that I have brought."
Bukhari:V9B84N59 "Whoever says this will save his property and life from me.'"
Qur'an:8:73 "The unbelieving infidels are allies. Unless you (Muslims) aid each other (fighting as one united block to make Allah's religion victorious), there will be confusion and mischief. Those who accepted Islam, left their homes to fight in Allah's Cause (al-Jihad), as well as those who give them asylum, shelter, and aid - these are (all) Believers: for them is pardon and bountiful provision (in Paradise)."
Tabari IX:69 "Arabs are the most noble people in lineage, the most prominent, and the best in deeds. We were the first to respond to the call of the Prophet. We are Allah's helpers and the viziers of His Messenger. We fight people until they believe in Allah. He who believes in Allah and His Messenger has protected his life and possessions from us. As for one who disbelieves, we will fight him forever in the Cause of Allah. Killing him is a small matter to us."
Qur'an:48:16 "Say (Muhammad) to the wandering desert Arabs who lagged behind: 'You shall be invited to fight against a people given to war with mighty prowess. You shall fight them until they surrender and submit. If you obey, Allah will grant you a reward, but if you turn back, as you did before, He will punish you with a grievous torture."
Qur'an:48:22 "If the unbelieving infidels fight against you, they will retreat. (Such has been) the practice (approved) of Allah in the past: no change will you find in the ways of Allah."
Qur'an:47:4 "When you clash with the unbelieving Infidels in battle (fighting Jihad in Allah's Cause), smite their necks until you overpower them, killing and wounding many of them. At length, when you have thoroughly subdued them, bind them firmly, making (them) captives. Thereafter either generosity or ransom (them based upon what benefits Islam) until the war lays down its burdens. Thus are you commanded by Allah to continue carrying out Jihad against the unbelieving infidels until they submit to Islam."
Qur'an:47:31 "And We shall try you until We know those among you who are the fighters."
Tabari VI:138 "Those present at the oath of Aqabah had sworn an allegiance to Muhammad. It was a pledge of war against all men. Allah had permitted fighting."
Tabari VI:139 "Allah had given his Messenger permission to fight by revealing the verse 'And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is all for Allah.'"
Qur'an:9:19 "Do you make the giving of drink to pilgrims, or the maintenance of the Mosque, equal to those who fight in the Cause of Allah? They are not comparable in the sight of Allah. Those who believe, and left their homes, striving with might, fighting in Allah's Cause with their goods and their lives, have the highest rank in the sight of Allah."
Ishaq:550 "The Muslims met them with their swords. They cut through many arms and skulls. Only confused cries and groans could be heard over our battle roars and snarling."
Qur'an:5:94 "Believers, Allah will make a test for you in the form of a little game in which you reach out for your lances. Any who fails this test will have a grievous punishment."
Ishaq:578 "Crushing the heads of the infidels and splitting their skulls with sharp swords, we continually thrust and cut at the enemy. Blood gushed from their deep wounds as the battle wore them down. We conquered bearing the Prophet's fluttering war banner. Our cavalry was submerged in rising dust, and our spears quivered, but by us the Prophet gained victory."
Tabari IX:22 "The Prophet continued to besiege the town, fighting them bitterly."
Tabari IX:25 "By Allah, I did not come to fight for nothing. I wanted a victory over Ta'if so that I might obtain a slave girl from them and make her pregnant."
Tabari IX:82 "The Messenger sent Khalid with an army of 400 to Harith [a South Arabian tribe] and ordered him to invite them to Islam for three days before he fought them. If they were to respond and submit, he was to teach them the Book of Allah, the Sunnah of His Prophet, and the requirements of Islam. If they should decline, then he was to fight them."
Tabari IX:88 "Abdallah Azdi came to the Messenger, embraced Islam, and became a good Muslim. Allah's Apostle invested Azdi with the authority over those who had surrendered and ordered him to fight the infidels from the tribes of Yemen. Azdi left with an army by the Messenger's command. The Muslims besieged them for a month. Then they withdrew, setting a trap. When the Yemenites went in pursuit, Azdi was able to inflict a heavy loss on them."
Ishaq:530 "Get out of his way, you infidel unbelievers. Every good thing goes with the Apostle. Lord, I believe in his word. We will fight you about its interpretations as we have fought you about its revelation with strokes that will remove heads from shoulders and make enemies of friends."
Muslim:C9B1N29 "Command For Fighting Against People So Long As They Do Not Profess That There Is No Ilah (God) But Allah And Muhammad Is His Messenger: When the Messenger breathed his last and Bakr was appointed Caliph, many Arabs chose to become apostates [rejected Islam]. Abu Bakr said: 'I will definitely fight against anyone who stops paying the Zakat tax, for it is an obligation. I will fight against them even to secure the cord used for hobbling the feet of a camel which they used to pay if they withhold it now.' Allah had justified fighting against those who refused to pay Zakat."
Muslim:C9B1N33 "The Prophet said: 'I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and they establish prostration prayer, and pay Zakat. If they do it, their blood and property are protected.'"
Muslim:C10B1N176 "Muhammad (may peace be upon him) sent us in a raiding party. We raided Huraqat in the morning. I caught hold of a man and he said: 'There is no god but Allah,' but I attacked him with a spear anyway. It once occurred to me that I should ask the Apostle about this. The Messenger said: 'Did he profess "There is no god but Allah," and even then you killed him?' I said: 'He made a profession out of the fear of the weapon I was threatening him with.' The Prophet said: 'Did you tear out his heart in order to find out whether it had professed truly or not?'"
Muslim:C20B1N4597 "The Prophet said at the conquest of Mecca: 'There is no migration now, but only Jihad, fighting for the Cause of Islam. When you are asked to set out on a Jihad expedition, you should readily do so.'"
Muslim:C28B20N4628 "Allah has undertaken to provide for one who leaves his home to fight for His Cause and to affirm the truth of His word; Allah will either admit him to Paradise or will bring him back home with his reward and booty."
Muslim:C28B20N4629 "The Messenger said: 'One who is wounded in the Way of Allah - and Allah knows best who is wounded in His Way - will appear on the Day of Judgment with his wound still bleeding. The color (of its discharge) will be blood, (but) its smell will be musk.'"
Muslim:C34B20N4652-3 "The Merit Of Jihad And Of Keeping Vigilance Over The Enemy: A man came to the Holy Prophet and said: 'Who is the best of men?' He replied: 'A man who fights staking his life and spending his wealth in Allah's Cause.'"
Muslim:C42B20N4684 "A desert Arab came to the Prophet and said: 'Messenger, one man fights for the spoils of war; another fights that he may be remembered, and one fights that he may see his (high) position (achieved as a result of his valor in fighting). Which of these is fighting in the Cause of Allah?' The Messenger of Allah said: 'Who fights so that the word of Allah is exalted is fighting in the Way of Allah.'"
Muslim:C53B20N4717 "The Prophet said: 'This religion will continue to exist, and a group of people from the Muslims will continue to fight for its protection until the Hour is established.'"
Bukhari:V5B59N288 "I witnessed a scene that was dearer to me than anything I had ever seen. Aswad came to the Prophet while Muhammad was urging the Muslims to fight the pagans. He said, 'We shall fight on your right and on your left and in front of you and behind you.' I saw the face of the Prophet getting bright with happiness, for that saying delighted him."
Bukhari:V5B59N290 "The believers who did not join the Ghazwa [Islamic raid or invasion] and those who fought are not equal in reward."
Qur'an:2:193 "Fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief) and religion is only for Allah. But if they cease/desist, let there be no hostility except against infidel disbelievers."
Qur'an:2:217 "They question you concerning fighting in the sacred month. Say: 'Fighting therein is a grave (matter); but to prevent access to Allah, to deny Him, to prevent access to the Sacred Mosque, to expel its members, and polytheism are worse than slaughter. Nor will they cease fighting you until they make you renegades from your religion. If any of you turn back and die in unbelief, your works will be lost and you will go to Hell. Surely those who believe and leave their homes to fight in Allah's Cause have the hope of Allah's mercy."
Qur'an:2:244 "Fight in Allah's Cause, and know that Allah hears and knows all."
Qur'an:2:246 "He said: 'Would you refrain from fighting if fighting were prescribed for you?' They said: 'How could we refuse to fight in Allah's Cause?'"
Ishaq:280 "The Apostle prepared for war in pursuance of Allah's command to fight his enemies and to fight the infidels who Allah commanded him to fight."
Qur'an:61:2 "O Muslims, why say one thing and do another? Grievously odious and hateful is it in the sight of Allah that you say that which you do not. Truly Allah loves those who fight in His Cause in a battle array, as if they were a solid cemented structure."
Bukhari:V4B52N61 "Allah's Apostle! We were absent from the first battle you fought against the pagans. If Allah gives us a chance to do battle, no doubt, He will see how bravely we fight."
Ishaq:398 "Ask them for their help. Thereby make the religion of Islam agreeable to them. And when you are resolved in the matter of religion concerning fighting your enemy you will have the advantage."
Qur'an:3:146 "How many prophets fought in Allah's Cause? With them (fought) myriads of godly men who were slain. They never lost heart if they met with disaster in Allah's Cause, nor did they weaken nor give in. Allah loves those who are firm and steadfast [warriors]."
Ishaq:393 "How many prophets has death in battle befallen and how many multitudes with him? They did not show weakness toward their enemies and were not humiliated when they suffered in the fight for Allah and their religion. That is steadfastness. Allah loves the steadfast."
Qur'an:3:153 "Behold! You ran off precipitately, climbing up the high hill without even casting a side glance at anyone, while the Messenger in your rear is calling you from your rear, urging you to fight. Allah gave you one distress after another by way of requital, to teach you not to grieve for the booty that had escaped you and for (the ill) that had befallen you."
Qur'an:3:154 "Say: 'Even if you had remained in your houses, those ordained to be slaughtered would have gone forth to the places where they were to slain."
Ishaq:440 "Helped by the Holy Spirit we smited Muhammad's foes. The Apostle sent a message to them with a sharp cutting sword."
Ishaq:470 "We attacked them fully armed, swords in hand, cutting through heads and skulls."
Qur'an:61:4 "Surely Allah loves those who fight in His Cause."
Qur'an:61:11 "Believers, shall I lead you to a bargain or trade that will save you from a painful torment? That you believe in Allah and His Messenger (Muhammad), and that you strive and fight in Allah's Cause with your property and your lives: That will be best for you!" Qur'an 61:12 "He will forgive you your sins, and admit you to Gardens under which rivers flow, and to beautiful mansions in Eden: that is indeed the Supreme Achievement. And another (favor) which you love: help from Allah for a speedy victory over your enemies."
Qur'an:8:5 "Your Lord ordered you out of your homes to fight for the true cause, even though some Muslims disliked it, and were averse (to fighting)."
Qur'an:24:53 "They swear their strongest oaths saying that if only you would command them. They would leave their homes (and go forth fighting in Allah's Cause). Say: 'Swear not; Obedience is (more) reasonable.'"
Qur'an:4:74 "Let those who fight in Allah's Cause sell this world's life for the hereafter. To him who fights in Allah's Cause, whether he is slain or victorious, We shall give him a reward."
Qur'an:4:75 "What reason have you that you should not fight in Allah's Cause?" [Another translation says:] "What is wrong with you that you do not fight for Allah?"
Qur'an:4:76 "Those who believe fight in the Cause of Allah."
Qur'an:4:77 "Have you not seen those to whom it was said: Withhold from fighting, perform the prayer and pay the zakat. But when orders for fighting were issued, a party of them feared men as they ought to have feared Allah. They say: 'Our Lord, why have You ordained fighting for us, why have You made war compulsory?'"
Qur'an:4:78 "Wherever you are, death will find you, even if you are in towers strong and high! So what is wrong with these people, that they fail to understand these simple words?"
Qur'an:4:84 "Then fight (Muhammad) in Allah's Cause. Incite the believers to fight with you."
Qur'an:4:94 "Believers, when you go abroad to fight wars in Allah's Cause, investigate carefully, and say not to anyone who greets you: 'You are not a believer!' Coveting the chance profits of this life (so that you may despoil him). With Allah are plenteous spoils and booty."
Qur'an:4:95 "Not equal are believers who sit home and receive no hurt and those who fight in Allah's Cause with their wealth and lives. Allah has granted a grade higher to those who fight with their possessions and bodies to those who sit home. Those who fight He has distinguished with a special reward."
Qur'an:4:100 "He who leaves his home in Allah's Cause finds abundant resources and many a refuge. Should he die as a refugee for Allah and His Messenger His reward becomes due and sure with Allah. When you travel through the earth there is no blame on you if you curtail your worship for fear unbelievers may attack you. In truth the disbelievers are your enemy."
Qur'an:4:102 "When you (Prophet) lead them in prayer, let some stand with you, taking their arms with them. When they finish their prostrations, let them take positions in the rear. And let others who have not yet prayed come - taking all precaution, and bearing arms. The Infidels wish, if you were negligent of your arms, to assault you in a rush. But there is no blame on you if you put away your arms because of the inconvenience of rain or because you are ill; but take precaution. For the Unbelieving Infidels Allah hath prepared a humiliating punishment."
Qur'an:4:104 "And do not relent in pursuing the enemy."


Hundreds of pages more where that came from too. And it's not like we are picking and chooseing... same verses Osama Bin Laden and ever other Muslim terrorist quotes. So obviously alot of muslims who disagree on you with "context". [/quote]

Again your quoting out of context your picking a verse and twisting it, to understand read the full chapter, the punishment are for those who reject mohammed after signs, punishment applies to those who do evil, weather muslim or non-muslim.

After you quoted 8:59, did look at 8:61 "If they resort to peace, so shall you, and put your trust in GOD. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient"

Now do you understand what context means? If the infidels oppress you, you should fight them, if they resort to peace you should terminate the fighting. This is same what C4 did, they didn't contextualise the verses.

[FrenchAffair]

Originally posted by farhad
Originally posted by FrenchAffair
Originally posted by farhad
No, the Kabaa was built by Abraham according to Islam. Only the one corrner stone that is black was supposed to be a meterorite... but even that is false.

I can show you hidden verses from Bible and Torah showing clear proof Abraham built the Kaaba.





Kieth moore hasn't won a nobel prize. He hasn't made any scientific achivement notable tbh.


I do respect of other faith as Quran tells muslims to respect people of other like people of the book.

Have you ever read the Qur'an?

"The infidels should not think that they can get away from us. Prepare against them whatever arms and weaponry you can muster so that you may terrorize them." Qur'an 8:59

Your Quoting out of context, If you read 8:58 it talks about a war that if the infidels betray or oppress you then you should also fight them and then read 8:61 it says if they resort to peace then you should stop immediately, Quran guides on how one should defend themselves.

[8:58] When you are betrayed by a group of people, you shall mobilize against them in the same manner. GOD does not love the betrayers.

[8:59] Let not those who disbelieve think that they can get away with it; they can never escape.

[8:60] You shall prepare for them all the power you can muster, and all the equipment you can mobilize, that you may frighten the enemies of GOD, your enemies, as well as others who are not known to you; GOD knows them. Whatever you spend in the cause of GOD will be repaid to you generously, without the least injustice.

[8:61] If they resort to peace, so shall you, and put your trust in GOD. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient.

This is some of, before you quote something please contextualise, dont quote part of a verse.

Out of context? Explain:

Qur'an:9:88 "The Messenger and those who believe with him, strive hard and fight with their wealth and lives in Allah's Cause."
Qur'an:9:5 "Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war."
Qur'an:9:112 "The Believers fight in Allah's Cause, they slay and are slain, kill and are killed."
Qur'an:9:29 "Fight those who do not believe until they all surrender, paying the protective tax in submission."
Ishaq:325 "Muslims, fight in Allah's Cause. Stand firm and you will prosper. Help the Prophet, obey him, give him your allegiance, and your religion will be victorious."
Qur'an:8:39 "Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah."
Qur'an:8:39 "So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world)."
Ishaq:324 "He said, 'Fight them so that there is no more rebellion, and religion, all of it, is for Allah only. Allah must have no rivals.'"
Qur'an:9:14 "Fight them and Allah will punish them by your hands, lay them low, and cover them with shame. He will help you over them."
Ishaq:300 "I am fighting in Allah's service. This is piety and a good deed. In Allah's war I do not fear as others should. For this fighting is righteous, true, and good."
Ishaq:587 "Our onslaught will not be a weak faltering affair. We shall fight as long as we live. We will fight until you turn to Islam, humbly seeking refuge. We will fight not caring whom we meet. We will fight whether we destroy ancient holdings or newly gotten gains. We have mutilated every opponent. We have driven them violently before us at the command of Allah and Islam. We will fight until our religion is established. And we will plunder them, for they must suffer disgrace."
Qur'an:8:65 "O Prophet, urge the faithful to fight. If there are twenty among you with determination they will vanquish two hundred; if there are a hundred then they will slaughter a thousand unbelievers, for the infidels are a people devoid of understanding."
Ishaq:326 "Prophet exhort the believers to fight. If there are twenty good fighters they will defeat two hundred for they are a senseless people. They do not fight with good intentions nor for truth."
Bukhari:V4B52N63 "A man whose face was covered with an iron mask came to the Prophet and said, 'Allah's Apostle! Shall I fight or embrace Islam first?' The Prophet said, 'Embrace Islam first and then fight.' So he embraced Islam, and was martyred. Allah's Apostle said, 'A Little work, but a great reward.'"
Bukhari:V4B53N386 "Our Prophet, the Messenger of our Lord, ordered us to fight you till you worship Allah alone or pay us the Jizyah tribute tax in submission. Our Prophet has informed us that our Lord says: 'Whoever amongst us is killed as a martyr shall go to Paradise to lead such a luxurious life as he has never seen, and whoever survives shall become your master.'"
Muslim:C34B20N4668 "The Messenger said: 'Anybody who equips a warrior going to fight in the Way of Allah is like one who actually fights. And anybody who looks after his family in his absence is also like one who actually fights."
Qur'an:9:38 "Believers, what is the matter with you, that when you are asked to go forth and fight in Allah's Cause you cling to the earth? Do you prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? Unless you go forth, He will afflict and punish you with a painful doom, and put others in your place."
Qur'an:9:123 "Fight the unbelievers around you, and let them find harshness in you."
Qur'an:8:72 "Those who accepted Islam and left their homes to fight in Allah's Cause with their possessions and persons, and those who gave (them) asylum, aid, and shelter, those who harbored them - these are allies of one another. You are not responsible for protecting those who embraced Islam but did not leave their homes [to fight] until they do so." [Another translation reads:] "You are only called to protect Muslims who fight."
Muslim:C9B1N31 "I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify to the fact that there is no god but Allah, and believe in me (that) I am the Messenger and in all that I have brought."
Bukhari:V9B84N59 "Whoever says this will save his property and life from me.'"
Qur'an:8:73 "The unbelieving infidels are allies. Unless you (Muslims) aid each other (fighting as one united block to make Allah's religion victorious), there will be confusion and mischief. Those who accepted Islam, left their homes to fight in Allah's Cause (al-Jihad), as well as those who give them asylum, shelter, and aid - these are (all) Believers: for them is pardon and bountiful provision (in Paradise)."
Tabari IX:69 "Arabs are the most noble people in lineage, the most prominent, and the best in deeds. We were the first to respond to the call of the Prophet. We are Allah's helpers and the viziers of His Messenger. We fight people until they believe in Allah. He who believes in Allah and His Messenger has protected his life and possessions from us. As for one who disbelieves, we will fight him forever in the Cause of Allah. Killing him is a small matter to us."
Qur'an:48:16 "Say (Muhammad) to the wandering desert Arabs who lagged behind: 'You shall be invited to fight against a people given to war with mighty prowess. You shall fight them until they surrender and submit. If you obey, Allah will grant you a reward, but if you turn back, as you did before, He will punish you with a grievous torture."
Qur'an:48:22 "If the unbelieving infidels fight against you, they will retreat. (Such has been) the practice (approved) of Allah in the past: no change will you find in the ways of Allah."
Qur'an:47:4 "When you clash with the unbelieving Infidels in battle (fighting Jihad in Allah's Cause), smite their necks until you overpower them, killing and wounding many of them. At length, when you have thoroughly subdued them, bind them firmly, making (them) captives. Thereafter either generosity or ransom (them based upon what benefits Islam) until the war lays down its burdens. Thus are you commanded by Allah to continue carrying out Jihad against the unbelieving infidels until they submit to Islam."
Qur'an:47:31 "And We shall try you until We know those among you who are the fighters."
Tabari VI:138 "Those present at the oath of Aqabah had sworn an allegiance to Muhammad. It was a pledge of war against all men. Allah had permitted fighting."
Tabari VI:139 "Allah had given his Messenger permission to fight by revealing the verse 'And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is all for Allah.'"
Qur'an:9:19 "Do you make the giving of drink to pilgrims, or the maintenance of the Mosque, equal to those who fight in the Cause of Allah? They are not comparable in the sight of Allah. Those who believe, and left their homes, striving with might, fighting in Allah's Cause with their goods and their lives, have the highest rank in the sight of Allah."
Ishaq:550 "The Muslims met them with their swords. They cut through many arms and skulls. Only confused cries and groans could be heard over our battle roars and snarling."
Qur'an:5:94 "Believers, Allah will make a test for you in the form of a little game in which you reach out for your lances. Any who fails this test will have a grievous punishment."
Ishaq:578 "Crushing the heads of the infidels and splitting their skulls with sharp swords, we continually thrust and cut at the enemy. Blood gushed from their deep wounds as the battle wore them down. We conquered bearing the Prophet's fluttering war banner. Our cavalry was submerged in rising dust, and our spears quivered, but by us the Prophet gained victory."
Tabari IX:22 "The Prophet continued to besiege the town, fighting them bitterly."
Tabari IX:25 "By Allah, I did not come to fight for nothing. I wanted a victory over Ta'if so that I might obtain a slave girl from them and make her pregnant."
Tabari IX:82 "The Messenger sent Khalid with an army of 400 to Harith [a South Arabian tribe] and ordered him to invite them to Islam for three days before he fought them. If they were to respond and submit, he was to teach them the Book of Allah, the Sunnah of His Prophet, and the requirements of Islam. If they should decline, then he was to fight them."
Tabari IX:88 "Abdallah Azdi came to the Messenger, embraced Islam, and became a good Muslim. Allah's Apostle invested Azdi with the authority over those who had surrendered and ordered him to fight the infidels from the tribes of Yemen. Azdi left with an army by the Messenger's command. The Muslims besieged them for a month. Then they withdrew, setting a trap. When the Yemenites went in pursuit, Azdi was able to inflict a heavy loss on them."
Ishaq:530 "Get out of his way, you infidel unbelievers. Every good thing goes with the Apostle. Lord, I believe in his word. We will fight you about its interpretations as we have fought you about its revelation with strokes that will remove heads from shoulders and make enemies of friends."
Muslim:C9B1N29 "Command For Fighting Against People So Long As They Do Not Profess That There Is No Ilah (God) But Allah And Muhammad Is His Messenger: When the Messenger breathed his last and Bakr was appointed Caliph, many Arabs chose to become apostates [rejected Islam]. Abu Bakr said: 'I will definitely fight against anyone who stops paying the Zakat tax, for it is an obligation. I will fight against them even to secure the cord used for hobbling the feet of a camel which they used to pay if they withhold it now.' Allah had justified fighting against those who refused to pay Zakat."
Muslim:C9B1N33 "The Prophet said: 'I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and they establish prostration prayer, and pay Zakat. If they do it, their blood and property are protected.'"
Muslim:C10B1N176 "Muhammad (may peace be upon him) sent us in a raiding party. We raided Huraqat in the morning. I caught hold of a man and he said: 'There is no god but Allah,' but I attacked him with a spear anyway. It once occurred to me that I should ask the Apostle about this. The Messenger said: 'Did he profess "There is no god but Allah," and even then you killed him?' I said: 'He made a profession out of the fear of the weapon I was threatening him with.' The Prophet said: 'Did you tear out his heart in order to find out whether it had professed truly or not?'"
Muslim:C20B1N4597 "The Prophet said at the conquest of Mecca: 'There is no migration now, but only Jihad, fighting for the Cause of Islam. When you are asked to set out on a Jihad expedition, you should readily do so.'"
Muslim:C28B20N4628 "Allah has undertaken to provide for one who leaves his home to fight for His Cause and to affirm the truth of His word; Allah will either admit him to Paradise or will bring him back home with his reward and booty."
Muslim:C28B20N4629 "The Messenger said: 'One who is wounded in the Way of Allah - and Allah knows best who is wounded in His Way - will appear on the Day of Judgment with his wound still bleeding. The color (of its discharge) will be blood, (but) its smell will be musk.'"
Muslim:C34B20N4652-3 "The Merit Of Jihad And Of Keeping Vigilance Over The Enemy: A man came to the Holy Prophet and said: 'Who is the best of men?' He replied: 'A man who fights staking his life and spending his wealth in Allah's Cause.'"
Muslim:C42B20N4684 "A desert Arab came to the Prophet and said: 'Messenger, one man fights for the spoils of war; another fights that he may be remembered, and one fights that he may see his (high) position (achieved as a result of his valor in fighting). Which of these is fighting in the Cause of Allah?' The Messenger of Allah said: 'Who fights so that the word of Allah is exalted is fighting in the Way of Allah.'"
Muslim:C53B20N4717 "The Prophet said: 'This religion will continue to exist, and a group of people from the Muslims will continue to fight for its protection until the Hour is established.'"
Bukhari:V5B59N288 "I witnessed a scene that was dearer to me than anything I had ever seen. Aswad came to the Prophet while Muhammad was urging the Muslims to fight the pagans. He said, 'We shall fight on your right and on your left and in front of you and behind you.' I saw the face of the Prophet getting bright with happiness, for that saying delighted him."
Bukhari:V5B59N290 "The believers who did not join the Ghazwa [Islamic raid or invasion] and those who fought are not equal in reward."
Qur'an:2:193 "Fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief) and religion is only for Allah. But if they cease/desist, let there be no hostility except against infidel disbelievers."
Qur'an:2:217 "They question you concerning fighting in the sacred month. Say: 'Fighting therein is a grave (matter); but to prevent access to Allah, to deny Him, to prevent access to the Sacred Mosque, to expel its members, and polytheism are worse than slaughter. Nor will they cease fighting you until they make you renegades from your religion. If any of you turn back and die in unbelief, your works will be lost and you will go to Hell. Surely those who believe and leave their homes to fight in Allah's Cause have the hope of Allah's mercy."
Qur'an:2:244 "Fight in Allah's Cause, and know that Allah hears and knows all."
Qur'an:2:246 "He said: 'Would you refrain from fighting if fighting were prescribed for you?' They said: 'How could we refuse to fight in Allah's Cause?'"
Ishaq:280 "The Apostle prepared for war in pursuance of Allah's command to fight his enemies and to fight the infidels who Allah commanded him to fight."
Qur'an:61:2 "O Muslims, why say one thing and do another? Grievously odious and hateful is it in the sight of Allah that you say that which you do not. Truly Allah loves those who fight in His Cause in a battle array, as if they were a solid cemented structure."
Bukhari:V4B52N61 "Allah's Apostle! We were absent from the first battle you fought against the pagans. If Allah gives us a chance to do battle, no doubt, He will see how bravely we fight."
Ishaq:398 "Ask them for their help. Thereby make the religion of Islam agreeable to them. And when you are resolved in the matter of religion concerning fighting your enemy you will have the advantage."
Qur'an:3:146 "How many prophets fought in Allah's Cause? With them (fought) myriads of godly men who were slain. They never lost heart if they met with disaster in Allah's Cause, nor did they weaken nor give in. Allah loves those who are firm and steadfast [warriors]."
Ishaq:393 "How many prophets has death in battle befallen and how many multitudes with him? They did not show weakness toward their enemies and were not humiliated when they suffered in the fight for Allah and their religion. That is steadfastness. Allah loves the steadfast."
Qur'an:3:153 "Behold! You ran off precipitately, climbing up the high hill without even casting a side glance at anyone, while the Messenger in your rear is calling you from your rear, urging you to fight. Allah gave you one distress after another by way of requital, to teach you not to grieve for the booty that had escaped you and for (the ill) that had befallen you."
Qur'an:3:154 "Say: 'Even if you had remained in your houses, those ordained to be slaughtered would have gone forth to the places where they were to slain."
Ishaq:440 "Helped by the Holy Spirit we smited Muhammad's foes. The Apostle sent a message to them with a sharp cutting sword."
Ishaq:470 "We attacked them fully armed, swords in hand, cutting through heads and skulls."
Qur'an:61:4 "Surely Allah loves those who fight in His Cause."
Qur'an:61:11 "Believers, shall I lead you to a bargain or trade that will save you from a painful torment? That you believe in Allah and His Messenger (Muhammad), and that you strive and fight in Allah's Cause with your property and your lives: That will be best for you!" Qur'an 61:12 "He will forgive you your sins, and admit you to Gardens under which rivers flow, and to beautiful mansions in Eden: that is indeed the Supreme Achievement. And another (favor) which you love: help from Allah for a speedy victory over your enemies."
Qur'an:8:5 "Your Lord ordered you out of your homes to fight for the true cause, even though some Muslims disliked it, and were averse (to fighting)."
Qur'an:24:53 "They swear their strongest oaths saying that if only you would command them. They would leave their homes (and go forth fighting in Allah's Cause). Say: 'Swear not; Obedience is (more) reasonable.'"
Qur'an:4:74 "Let those who fight in Allah's Cause sell this world's life for the hereafter. To him who fights in Allah's Cause, whether he is slain or victorious, We shall give him a reward."
Qur'an:4:75 "What reason have you that you should not fight in Allah's Cause?" [Another translation says:] "What is wrong with you that you do not fight for Allah?"
Qur'an:4:76 "Those who believe fight in the Cause of Allah."
Qur'an:4:77 "Have you not seen those to whom it was said: Withhold from fighting, perform the prayer and pay the zakat. But when orders for fighting were issued, a party of them feared men as they ought to have feared Allah. They say: 'Our Lord, why have You ordained fighting for us, why have You made war compulsory?'"
Qur'an:4:78 "Wherever you are, death will find you, even if you are in towers strong and high! So what is wrong with these people, that they fail to understand these simple words?"
Qur'an:4:84 "Then fight (Muhammad) in Allah's Cause. Incite the believers to fight with you."
Qur'an:4:94 "Believers, when you go abroad to fight wars in Allah's Cause, investigate carefully, and say not to anyone who greets you: 'You are not a believer!' Coveting the chance profits of this life (so that you may despoil him). With Allah are plenteous spoils and booty."
Qur'an:4:95 "Not equal are believers who sit home and receive no hurt and those who fight in Allah's Cause with their wealth and lives. Allah has granted a grade higher to those who fight with their possessions and bodies to those who sit home. Those who fight He has distinguished with a special reward."
Qur'an:4:100 "He who leaves his home in Allah's Cause finds abundant resources and many a refuge. Should he die as a refugee for Allah and His Messenger His reward becomes due and sure with Allah. When you travel through the earth there is no blame on you if you curtail your worship for fear unbelievers may attack you. In truth the disbelievers are your enemy."
Qur'an:4:102 "When you (Prophet) lead them in prayer, let some stand with you, taking their arms with them. When they finish their prostrations, let them take positions in the rear. And let others who have not yet prayed come - taking all precaution, and bearing arms. The Infidels wish, if you were negligent of your arms, to assault you in a rush. But there is no blame on you if you put away your arms because of the inconvenience of rain or because you are ill; but take precaution. For the Unbelieving Infidels Allah hath prepared a humiliating punishment."
Qur'an:4:104 "And do not relent in pursuing the enemy."


Hundreds of pages more where that came from too. And it's not like we are picking and chooseing... same verses Osama Bin Laden and ever other Muslim terrorist quotes. So obviously alot of muslims who disagree on you with "context". [/quote]

Again your quoting out of context your picking a verse and twisting it, to understand read the full chapter, the punishment are for those who reject mohammed after signs, punishment applies to those who do evil, weather muslim or non-muslim.

After you quoted 8:59, did look at 8:61 "If they resort to peace, so shall you, and put your trust in GOD. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient"

Now do you understand what context means? If the infidels oppress you, you should fight them, if they resort to peace you should terminate the fighting. This is same what C4 did, they didn't contextualise the verses. [/quote]

same verses Osama Bin Laden and ever other Muslim terrorist quotes. So obviously alot of muslims who disagree on you with "context".

[farhad]

Originally posted by FrenchAffair


[quote]As they were supposed to, God said himself that the Messiah would be rejected by his own people. The purpose of Jesus was not to redeem the Jews, but to open God's covanant to all man as he died for all their sins.

In Islam every sole is born sinless and they are judged according to their own action, and Jesus was a muslim, he mention the word in Aramaic hebrew Bible Mushlam, what do you they about this?

Jesus died in some odd 32ish AD.... Muhammad wasn't born for another 600 years. What was God doing in between?

Mohammed was prophecised in the Bible clearly even some chrisitian's and scholars admit this.

And if that "kingdom" is not in Arabia... why is Jerusalem so important to Islam? Islams 3rd most holy site is there.

Bible proves Islam, read into this: Jesus said to the Jews: "Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. (From the KJV Bible, Matthew 21:43)"

according Quran this is what is exactly what it says that kingdom of Jerusalem will be given to arab nation, see the Prophecy?

Read into history, further its important because most Prophet in Islam were sent to Israel nation

.

[farhad]

Originally posted by FrenchAffair


Kieth moore hasn't won a nobel prize. He hasn't made any scientific achivement notable tbh.

Your joking right? Awards
"Because of the success of Clinically Oriented Anatomy, the AACA awarded awarded Dr. Moore with their Honored Member Award (in 1994). In 2007, the American Association of Anatomists awarded him with the first Henry Gray/Elsevier Distinguished Educator Award"

and the requirements of Islam. If they should decline, then
same verses Osama Bin Laden and ever other Muslim terrorist quotes. So obviously alot of muslims who disagree on you with "context".

Osama isn't representative for islam, he like you are doing the same, picking verses and twisting it to put the point across.

Have a look at this verse and tell me what you think about it: [2:62] Surely, those who believe, those who are Jewish, the Christians, and the converts; anyone who (1) believes in GOD, and (2) believes in the Last Day, and (3) leads a righteous life, will receive their recompense from their Lord. They have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.

[farhad]

Originally posted by Matt10k
Maybe we should do a survey?

How many of the women here are persuaded enough by Farhads argument, to pack their bags and go to live in a country like Saudi Arabia?!

His reasoning that you should leave is that you are degrading yourself by what you wear- and that you are more likely to be raped.
.



Convinced?

Just to give you a quote to show even a bad muslim women deserved equal respect. Beloved Prophet said in the Quran: "Consort with them in kindness, for even if you deslike them, it may happen that you hate a thing wherein Allah hath placed much good." (Quran 4: 19)


"And they women have rights similar to those of men over them in kindness, and men are a degree above them in responsiblity to them. Allah is Mighty, Wise." (Quran 2:228)

Sex before marriage is forbidden about all religion.

[farhad]

Originally posted by Angiebabe

Seems pretty simple to me, thou shalt not kill, but if you had any doubts to that message then Jesus (son of God or prophet said) to love others like I have loved you.
Jesus never so much as hit anyone let alone killed people on mass.



Ok dear if Bible said thought shal not kill, what does these verse mean:

"Revelation 2:22-23

"Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.And I will kill her children with death;"

please explain why little children who have done nothing wrong should be killed.

(Matthew 10:34-39 NASB)
Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man's enemies will be the members of his household"

lol and thats not even from the quran its from the "peace loving gospel preaching " BIBLE

Surely those who believe and those who are Jews and the Sabeans and the Christians -- whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day and does good -- they shall have no fear nor shall they grieve. (Qur'an 5:69)

[Matt10k]

I like it how when you quote me, you miss nearly all of what I said out- leaving only the bits you like or selectively cut it to make it look like I don't have a point! :joker:

And I really couldn't give a stuff what the quran says or that sex before marriage is wrong in religion- I think religion is an absurd and outdated system of control.

And I only care about the end product and that is that women and men are being mistreated in Saudi Arabia and that punishment for things like sex before marriage is particularly barbaric there and I see no place for this in the 21st century. Religion is NOT an excuse. There is no excuse for such barbarity...

[farhad]

Originally posted by Matt10k
I like it how when you quote me, you miss nearly all of what I said out- leaving only the bits you like or selectively cut it to make it look like I don't have a point! :joker:

And I really couldn't give a stuff what the quran says or that sex before marriage is wrong in religion- I think religion is an absurd and outdated system of control.

And I only care about the end product and that is that women and men are being mistreated in Saudi Arabia and that punishment for things like sex before marriage is particularly barbaric there and I see no place for this in the 21st century. Religion is NOT an excuse. There is no excuse for such barbarity...

One who never believes in God never leads a successful life, that also in the afterlife.

[andyman]

farhad how old is the human race?

[Matt10k]

Originally posted by farhad
One who never believes in God never leads a successful life, that also in the afterlife.

What cr*p! :nono:

Many atheists lead successful lives. Doctors, teachers, policemen and women etc... and what you've said is an insult to them.

I wonder if- next time you or a family member of yours is in hospital and is given treatment by an atheist doctor, you think a bit more carefully about some of the utter drivel you come out with :conf2:

And for the record, I don't believe in an afterlife :thumbs:

[farhad]

Originally posted by Matt10k
Originally posted by farhad
One who never believes in God never leads a successful life, that also in the afterlife.

What cr*p! :nono:

Many atheists lead successful lives. Doctors, teachers, policemen and women etc... and what you've said is an insult to them.

I wonder if- next time you or a family member of yours is in hospital and is given treatment by an atheist doctor, you think a bit more carefully about some of the utter drivel you come out with :conf2:

And for the record, I don't believe in an afterlife :thumbs:

Scientist are saying there is life after death, so be aware of Allah in the afterlife.:wink:

[Matt10k]

Originally posted by farhad
Originally posted by Matt10k
Originally posted by farhad
One who never believes in God never leads a successful life, that also in the afterlife.

What cr*p! :nono:

Many atheists lead successful lives. Doctors, teachers, policemen and women etc... and what you've said is an insult to them.

I wonder if- next time you or a family member of yours is in hospital and is given treatment by an atheist doctor, you think a bit more carefully about some of the utter drivel you come out with :conf2:

And for the record, I don't believe in an afterlife :thumbs:

Scientist are saying there is life after death, so be aware of Allah in the afterlife.:wink:

Haha, ok. Well not the ones I'm listening to :wink:

And also, you make some pretty awful and discriminatory points, like the one you made on atheists just now- saying they can't lead a successful life. Do you stand by this? If so, I'm afraid from now on, you lost the last bit of respect I had for any of the things you posted and I just can’t take you seriously anymore :bigsmile: Sorry…

[farhad]

the Holy Qur'an in Surah Yunus (10:99) makes it quite plain:"IF IT HAD BEEN YOUR LORD'S WILL, THEY WOULD ALL HAVE BELIEVED, ALL WHO ARE ON EARTH. WILL YOU THEN COMPEL PEOPLE AGAINST THEIR WILL TO BELIEVE?"
Here, the Almighty makes it perfectly clear that humanity has free will that each individual must make up his or her mind according to their own free choice. But with freedom comes individual responsibility and personal consequences. So its up to people who want practise what they like, my job as a muslim is to convey the truth.:thumbs:

[farhad]

Originally posted by Matt10k
I have some questions:

Are women in Saudi Arabia allowed to drive yet?

How would a apostate would be treated?


On the issue of apostasy there is NOT a single mention of death penalty for apostates, and there is not a single case in the authentic hadiths in which the Prophet Muhammad (sas) had an apostate killed solely for apostatsy! These are hard facts! There is one narration of one witness according to sahi Hadith he thought he Prophet tell those who leave Islam they should be killed", however this is the only narrator made this statement, to be authentic there needs to be more than one narrator making it authentic. Prophet even once had an appostate, but he didn't even punish this person.

This is from sahi Bhukari Hadith in regards to apostacy, all the witnesses have said Prophet said one can denounce faith but they will be dealt in the afterlife. One person (who wasn't even a close companion of the prophet)saying he thought he heard, means a third party, doesn't make it authentic.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/084.sbt.html

"A bedouin gave the Pledge of allegiance to Allah's Apostle for Islam. Then the bedouin got a fever at Medina, came to Allah's Apostle and said, "O Allah's Apostle! Cancel my Pledge," But Allah's Apostle refused......The bedouin finally went out (of Medina) whereupon Allah's Apostle said, "Medina is like a pair of bellows (furnace): It expels its impurities and brightens and clears its good." [Sahih al-Bukhari, Vol. 9, #318] NO DEATH PENALTY HERE!!!

[Very_Nayce]

I am an atheist and I lead a fulfilling life. I gave up all hope of ever being sucked into Religion last year. I wanted to believe but could not, and im past all questioning of life now and I am able to properly live it without fear of doing things wrong. Religion has a hard on for suffering. Atheists have a hard on for accepting that this is the only life you are going to get, and live.

So party on! Thats the basis of my philosophy. Aint no narrow attacks or scripture quotes can ever change my mind. Life is just a ride.

I have seen members in this thread converse by exchanging what might well be lines from an X-Files script as if it were ABSOLOUTE truth and they were contacted DIRECTLY to have their opinion VALIDATED.

As Mario would say, true Billy Bullshiners.

[farhad]

Originally posted by Very_Nayce
I am an atheist and I lead a fulfilling life. I gave up all hope of ever being sucked into Religion last year. I wanted to believe but could not, and Im past all questioning of life now and I am able to properly live it without fear of doing things wrong. Religion has a hard on for suffering. Atheists have a hard on for accepting that this is the only life you are going to get, and live.

So party on! Thats the basis of my philosophy. Aint no narrow attacks or scripture quotes can ever change my mind. Life is just a ride.

I have seen members in this thread converse by exchanging what might well be lines from an X-Files script as if it were ABSOLOUTE truth and they were contacted DIRECTLY to have their opinion VALIDATED.

As Mario would say, true Billy Bullshiners.

According to statistics Athiesm coming to Islam is growing, if you dont believe me you can check amount of athiest who come to religion, is the path of Islam.

[Very_Nayce]

Originally posted by farhad
Originally posted by Very_Nayce
I am an atheist and I lead a fulfilling life. I gave up all hope of ever being sucked into Religion last year. I wanted to believe but could not, and Im past all questioning of life now and I am able to properly live it without fear of doing things wrong. Religion has a hard on for suffering. Atheists have a hard on for accepting that this is the only life you are going to get, and live.

So party on! Thats the basis of my philosophy. Aint no narrow attacks or scripture quotes can ever change my mind. Life is just a ride.

I have seen members in this thread converse by exchanging what might well be lines from an X-Files script as if it were ABSOLOUTE truth and they were contacted DIRECTLY to have their opinion VALIDATED.

As Mario would say, true Billy Bullshiners.

According to statistics Athiesm coming to Islam is growing, if you dont believe me you can check amount of athiest who come to religion, is the path of Islam.
And your point is?...

Im not a statictic. Im me. And im an atheist.

[FrenchAffair]

Originally posted by farhad


Just to give you a quote to show even a bad muslim women deserved equal respect. Beloved Prophet said in the Quran:

The same prophet that married and raped a 9 year old girl when he was no younger than 53 years old by his own account?

"Tell the men with you who have wives: never trust a woman." (Ishaq:584)

"Force not your slave-girls to *****dom (prostitution) if they desire chastity, that you may seek enjoyment of this life. But if anyone forces them, then after such compulsion, Allah is oft-forgiving." (Qur'an 24:34)

[farhad]

Originally posted by FrenchAffair
Originally posted by farhad


Just to give you a quote to show even a bad muslim women deserved equal respect. Beloved Prophet said in the Quran:

The same prophet that married and raped a 9 year old girl when he was no younger than 53 years old by his own account?

"Tell the men with you who have wives: never trust a woman." (Ishaq:584)

"Force not your slave-girls to *****dom (prostitution) if they desire chastity, that you may seek enjoyment of this life. But if anyone forces them, then after such compulsion, Allah is oft-forgiving." (Qur'an 24:34)

Your a lyer and your quoting Bible verses, the actual verse is 24:34. "We have already sent down to you verses making things clear, an illustration from (the story of) people who passed away before you, and an admonition for those who fear ((Allah))"

Where in that verse talks about slave girls and raping them?

Furthermore, Women in arabia had short life span, they died at the age of 35, so it was common sense they got married after they hit puberty. How did Prophet raped her when her parents offered her to him and she accepted it. Please stop quoting Bible verses.

"Tell the men with you who have wives: never trust a woman." (Ishaq:584)

Never heard of this, its not in the quran so stop quoting something that isn't there and provide source before doing it. Womens in Islam are respected and honoured and given right, the voting system for women was stolen from Prophet Mohammed's saying.

[farhad]

Islam believes in manumission of slave, hence marrying a poor women is a good deed, and by marrying them, your freeing them from slavery and given them a better life.

[Axiom]

Religion is the cause of several wars in the world and it is my belief that if there wasn't any religion or if there was just one religion then the world would be a more peaceful place. I myself don't believe in God or anything, but I respect those that do and those in other religions. And for you to say that you can't lead a succesfull life without believing in anything is UTTER BULLSHIT. My family is living proof.

[FrenchAffair]

Originally posted by horcrux92
Religion is the cause of several wars in the world and it is my belief that if there wasn't any religion or if there was just one religion then the world would be a more peaceful place. I myself don't believe in God or anything, but I respect those that do and those in other religions. And for you to say that you can't lead a succesfull life without believing in anything is UTTER BULLSHIT. My family is living proof.

Stalin, Mao, Lenin, Hitler, Pol Pot...... hundreds of millions dead at the hands of atheists and secularists in the last century. Religion isn't the problem, lack of religion & false religion (islam) is the problem.

[Axiom]

Originally posted by FrenchAffair
Originally posted by horcrux92
Religion is the cause of several wars in the world and it is my belief that if there wasn't any religion or if there was just one religion then the world would be a more peaceful place. I myself don't believe in God or anything, but I respect those that do and those in other religions. And for you to say that you can't lead a succesfull life without believing in anything is UTTER BULLSHIT. My family is living proof.

Stalin, Mao, Lenin, Hitler, Pol Pot...... hundreds of millions dead at the hands of atheists and secularists in the last century. Religion isn't the problem, lack of religion & false religion (islam) is the problem.

I see where you're coming from but I did say "several" wars not all wars. Such as the second world war (Hitler hated the Jews), the Iraq war (Al-Quaeda extremists brainwashed with Islam) and so on.

[FrenchAffair]

Originally posted by farhad
Your a lyer and your quoting Bible verses

Whats a lyer?

Furthermore, Women in arabia had short life span, they died at the age of 35, so it was common sense they got married after they hit puberty. How did Prophet raped her when her parents offered her to him and she accepted it. Please stop quoting Bible verses.

How old was Muhammads first wife when he married and raped ashia? How old was his 2nd wife, his 3rd wife, his 4th wife..... they were all over 30 mate.... yet he had to have a little 9 year old girl.

You know what that makes him, a pedophile.

"Tell the men with you who have wives: never trust a woman." (Ishaq:584)

Never heard of this, its not in the quran so stop quoting something that isn't there and provide source before doing it. Womens in Islam are respected and honoured and given right, the voting system for women was stolen from Prophet Mohammed's saying.

You have never hard of Ibn Ishaq and you call youself a Muslim? No wonder you are so unedcuated about Islam. He collected oral traditions that formed the basis of first biography of Muhammad.

[FrenchAffair]

Originally posted by horcrux92
Originally posted by FrenchAffair
Originally posted by horcrux92
Religion is the cause of several wars in the world and it is my belief that if there wasn't any religion or if there was just one religion then the world would be a more peaceful place. I myself don't believe in God or anything, but I respect those that do and those in other religions. And for you to say that you can't lead a succesfull life without believing in anything is UTTER BULLSHIT. My family is living proof.

Stalin, Mao, Lenin, Hitler, Pol Pot...... hundreds of millions dead at the hands of atheists and secularists in the last century. Religion isn't the problem, lack of religion & false religion (islam) is the problem.

I see where you're coming from but I did say "several" wars not all wars. Such as the second world war (Hitler hated the Jews), the Iraq war (Al-Quaeda extremists brainwashed with Islam) and so on.

Hitlers hatred of Jews had nothing to do with religion, his position was that "jew" was a inferior race. It had to do with secular science.

The very concept of evolution supports racism.

[Tom]

Originally posted by horcrux92
Religion is the cause of several wars in the world and it is my belief that if there wasn't any religion or if there was just one religion then the world would be a more peaceful place. I myself don't believe in God or anything, but I respect those that do and those in other religions. And for you to say that you can't lead a succesfull life without believing in anything is UTTER BULLSHIT. My family is living proof.

Religion is not the cause, religion is the justification. There is a fine line between the two. If there was one religion evil would still occur because people would find loopholes in scriptures in order to justify evil.

I'm semi-religious and come from a fairly religious background. The religion is my choice because I've only just recently gone "that way", obviously my background isn't, but I think it is rubbish when people say you can't live a successful life without religion. There are plenty of people who do live successful lives without religion, and on the flip side there are many religious people with rubbish lives. I feel that IF there is a God then the only way to impress *him* and go to heaven or have a good afterlife is to be a good person whilst you're here. IMO I don't think it matters if you believe or not, I think God will 'accept' anyone who has lead a peaceful life whilst abiding by most rules set out in the Bible, which ironically makes up a large bulk of British law.

[Axiom]

Originally posted by Tom
Originally posted by horcrux92
Religion is the cause of several wars in the world and it is my belief that if there wasn't any religion or if there was just one religion then the world would be a more peaceful place. I myself don't believe in God or anything, but I respect those that do and those in other religions. And for you to say that you can't lead a succesfull life without believing in anything is UTTER BULLSHIT. My family is living proof.

Religion is not the cause, religion is the justification. There is a fine line between the two. If there was one religion evil would still occur because people would find loopholes in scriptures in order to justify evil.

I'm semi-religious and come from a fairly religious background. The religion is my choice because I've only just recently gone "that way", obviously my background isn't, but I think it is rubbish when people say you can't live a successful life without religion. There are plenty of people who do live successful lives without religion, and on the flip side there are many religious people with rubbish lives. I feel that IF there is a God then the only way to impress *him* and go to heaven or have a good afterlife is to be a good person whilst you're here. IMO I don't think it matters if you believe or not, I think God will 'accept' anyone who has lead a peaceful life whilst abiding by most rules set out in the Bible, which ironically makes up a large bulk of British law.

I stand corrected! :thumbs:

[farhad]

Originally posted by horcrux92
Religion is the cause of several wars in the world and it is my belief that if there wasn't any religion or if there was just one religion then the world would be a more peaceful place. I myself don't believe in God or anything, but I respect those that do and those in other religions. And for you to say that you can't lead a succesfull life without believing in anything is UTTER BULLSHIT. My family is living proof.

So what did World war 1 and 2 had to do with religion?

[farhad]

Originally posted by FrenchAffair
Originally posted by horcrux92
Originally posted by FrenchAffair
Originally posted by horcrux92
Religion is the cause of several wars in the world and it is my belief that if there wasn't any religion or if there was just one religion then the world would be a more peaceful place. I myself don't believe in God or anything, but I respect those that do and those in other religions. And for you to say that you can't lead a succesfull life without believing in anything is UTTER BULLSHIT. My family is living proof.

Stalin, Mao, Lenin, Hitler, Pol Pot...... hundreds of millions dead at the hands of atheists and secularists in the last century. Religion isn't the problem, lack of religion & false religion (islam) is the problem.

I see where you're coming from but I did say "several" wars not all wars. Such as the second world war (Hitler hated the Jews), the Iraq war (Al-Quaeda extremists brainwashed with Islam) and so on.

Hitlers hatred of Jews had nothing to do with religion, his position was that "jew" was a inferior race. It had to do with secular science.

The very concept of evolution supports racism.

The vitanamese war, did that had anything to do with religion?

[farhad]

Originally posted by FrenchAffair
Originally posted by farhad
Your a lyer and your quoting Bible verses

Whats a lyer?

Furthermore, Women in arabia had short life span, they died at the age of 35, so it was common sense they got married after they hit puberty. How did Prophet raped her when her parents offered her to him and she accepted it. Please stop quoting Bible verses.

How old was Muhammads first wife when he married and raped ashia? How old was his 2nd wife, his 3rd wife, his 4th wife..... they were all over 30 mate.... yet he had to have a little 9 year old girl.

You know what that makes him, a pedophile.

Balah Blah Blah, Still it is well known that people in arabia and throughout the world had short life span, Girls in Britain were betrothed at the age of 4, that is what peadophelia is is when the child hasn't passed their puberty. Prophet Got engaged to Aisha at 9 and consumated at 13, some say 16, either way there is proof she might of been 27 at the time of Hijrah. Rape is something when you go aganst someones will, did Prophet go against her will or hit consented from her. Suppose your correct, than why would a sex greedy man marry someone who is well older than him, most of his marriage wasn't for lust, but for political reasons, such as widows. First Bring your proof and evidence then make the accusation.

You should take into account that people often didn't live past 40, so 9 years old would be the equivilent of our 17 or 18.


[quote]"Tell the men with you who have wives: never trust a woman." (Ishaq:584)

Never heard of this, its not in the quran so stop quoting something that isn't there and provide source before doing it. Womens in Islam are respected and honoured and given right, the voting system for women was stolen from Prophet Mohammed's saying.

You have never hard of Ibn Ishaq and you call youself a Muslim? No wonder you are so unedcuated about Islam. He collected oral traditions that formed the basis of first biography of Muhammad.

I think its you who dont know any history or anything about Islam, notice you quoted a secondary source over Quran. No books hold authority over Quran, that be it Hadith. Also before quoting something, first quote the full verse, I can see what your trying to do by quoting part of the line and not inserting the whole, so you could put your point across.

Something that isn't directly found in the quran or contradicts the Quran, the word of Allah, I will never take that source as authentic. I know who Ishaq is, then there are few of his things contradict the quran, or maybe it may have been fabricated. First bring your proof from the Quran first then bring the secondary sources, these books should not hold the candle of word of God which is the Quran. Either no other religion which could be said gave right to women, only Islam has. No religion spoke about freedom of faith whilst quran said "No Compulsion in Religion", a black equal to white was completely unheard of until couple of decades where racism here was made illegal, and 1400 centuries Prophet said a Black and white are all equal.

Much of the text of the Sirah Rasul Allah by Ibn Ishaq (Medina 85 A.H. - Bagdad 151 A.H.) was copied over by Ibn Hisham (Basra 1xy A.H. - Fustat, Egypt, 218 or 213 A.H.) into a work of his own. Ibn Hisham also "abbreviated, annotated, and sometimes altered" the text (Guillaume, at xvii). Interpolations of Ibn Hisham are recognizable and can be deleted, leaving as a remainder an "edited" version of Ibn Ishaq, whose original version is lost.

Its believe some of original works of Ishaq have been lost and altered by people. Either way if some these contradicts, we are guided to go back to the Quran, none of these books should hold candle to the word of God, Books like Hadith are word of people, some may be right some may misheard, some were heresay.

[Nurse57]

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a191/123andrew/2005-11-28.jpg

[Very_Nayce]

Originally posted by FrenchAffair
Originally posted by horcrux92
Religion is the cause of several wars in the world and it is my belief that if there wasn't any religion or if there was just one religion then the world would be a more peaceful place. I myself don't believe in God or anything, but I respect those that do and those in other religions. And for you to say that you can't lead a succesfull life without believing in anything is UTTER BULLSHIT. My family is living proof.

Stalin, Mao, Lenin, Hitler, Pol Pot...... hundreds of millions dead at the hands of atheists and secularists in the last century. Religion isn't the problem, lack of religion & false religion (islam) is the problem.
The inquest, the crusades, witch burnings. Any of it ring a bell, no? Religion kills too. Both are wrong. The only difference is the Atheists dont use a spectre in the sky to justify it.

Atheists these days tend to be the chaps across the street smoking pot listening to albums you dont hear in the charts. Their not a violent subculture by any means.

[Axiom]

Originally posted by farhad
Originally posted by horcrux92
Religion is the cause of several wars in the world and it is my belief that if there wasn't any religion or if there was just one religion then the world would be a more peaceful place. I myself don't believe in God or anything, but I respect those that do and those in other religions. And for you to say that you can't lead a succesfull life without believing in anything is UTTER BULLSHIT. My family is living proof.

So what did World war 1 and 2 had to do with religion?

Listen, I suggest you read my post AGAIN. I said SEVERAL not EVERY war has an element of religion involved.

[farhad]

Yes he married a 9/6year old because people in them days lived till they were like 35 to 44 therefore the 9 year old back in them days would be like 17 in these days, its just illogical and stupid to compare life of ancient time to now where things have been advanced so people could live longer. Marry gave birth to Jesus when she was 12 or 11, would this mean christian god raped her, or Jesus raped her as he is god to them.

[Very_Nayce]

Originally posted by horcrux92
Originally posted by farhad
Originally posted by horcrux92
Religion is the cause of several wars in the world and it is my belief that if there wasn't any religion or if there was just one religion then the world would be a more peaceful place. I myself don't believe in God or anything, but I respect those that do and those in other religions. And for you to say that you can't lead a succesfull life without believing in anything is UTTER BULLSHIT. My family is living proof.

So what did World war 1 and 2 had to do with religion?

Listen, I suggest you read my post AGAIN. I said SEVERAL not EVERY war has an element of religion involved.
You have to understand that these reigious folk dont like scope in an argument. They take things you or certani books [:wink:] say at litteral or face value.

[Axiom]

Originally posted by farhad
Yes he married a 9/6year old because people in them days lived till they were like 35 to 44 therefore the 9 year old back in them days would be like 17 in these days, its just illogical and stupid to compare life of ancient time to now where things have been advanced so people could live longer. Marry gave birth to Jesus when she was 12 or 11, would this mean christian god raped her, or Jesus raped her as he is god to them.

How could Jesus have raped Mary when he was her child??

[Nurse57]

"its just illogical and stupid to compare life of ancient time to now"

And yet you want people to follow a book written in ancient time. That is just illogical and stupid. Your words.

[Axiom]

Originally posted by Nurse57
"its just illogical and stupid to compare life of ancient time to now"

And yet you want people to follow a book written in ancient time. That is just illogical and stupid. Your words.

Exactly!

[farhad]

Originally posted by Nurse57
"its just illogical and stupid to compare life of ancient time to now"

And yet you want people to follow a book written in ancient time. That is just illogical and stupid. Your words.

We follow Quran because its the best guider, name me when was slavery abolished in the west, racism, the burning female widows or infant, women as political leaders, it through Quran which revolutioned and create equality all human weather it be muslim or non-muslim, most of the written human rights in the was already there. Quran abolished Slavery long before west was carrying out these Attrocity, Islam is the fastest growing religion because of its teachings, not followers.

[farhad]

Originally posted by horcrux92
Originally posted by farhad
Yes he married a 9/6year old because people in them days lived till they were like 35 to 44 therefore the 9 year old back in them days would be like 17 in these days, its just illogical and stupid to compare life of ancient time to now where things have been advanced so people could live longer. Marry gave birth to Jesus when she was 12 or 11, would this mean christian god raped her, or Jesus raped her as he is god to them.

How could Jesus have raped Mary when he was her child??

According Christian belief Jesus was the god of Torah.

[Nurse57]

You can't have it both ways. Either the ancient stuff is illogical and stupid or it is not. What one is it?

[Axiom]

Originally posted by farhad
Originally posted by Nurse57
"its just illogical and stupid to compare life of ancient time to now"

And yet you want people to follow a book written in ancient time. That is just illogical and stupid. Your words.

We follow Quran because its the best guider, name me when was slavery abolished in the west, racism, the burning female widows or infant, women as political leaders, it through Quran which revolutioned and create equality all human weather it be muslim or non-muslim, most of the written human rights in the was already there. Quran abolished Slavery long before west was carrying out these Attrocity, Islam is the fastest growing religion because of its teachings, not followers.

Muslims abolish slavery?! No. A friend of mine went to Egypt a few years ago, and 80% people there are muslims. Now, my friend and his family was walking through a street in Cairo, when a MUSLIM merchant walked up to my friend's parents and offered them two camels in exchange for my mate's sister as slave. So don't come up with this cr*p when slavery is more present in middle-eastern countries than western culture. Racism is also present in the middle east. Doesn't Osama Bin Laden have a hatred of America and the West?

[farhad]

Originally posted by FrenchAffair
[quote]Originally posted by farhad



Rape slave-girls



"Also (prohibited are) women already married, except those whom are slave-girls captive of war: Thus hath Allah ordained (Prohibitions) against you: Except for these, all others are lawful, provided ye seek (them in marriage) with gifts from your property,- desiring chastity, not lust, seeing that ye derive benefit from them, give them their dowers (at least) as prescribed; but if, after a dower is prescribed, agree Mutually (to vary it), there is no blame on you, and Allah is All-knowing, All-wise"

Where does Allah tell us to rape a slave-girl, Islam believes manumission of slave, marrying a slave or poor girl is an act of manumission of slave, like Prophet Mohammed said, but the marriage clearly says shouldn't be for lust, but for helping the helpless. In contrast the Bible says:

Titus 2:9 (NIV) Teach slaves* (*including young little girl slaves) to be subject to their masters in everything* (*and I mean, EVERYTHING without restrictions no matter how kinky!!!), to try to please them, not to talk back to them,* (*Hallelujah! Praise the LORD! Sweet Jesus! Please don’t judge me wrong here… I’m being sarcastic just to make a point!)

Exodus 21:7-8 (NIV) "If a MAN SELLS* (*for whatever reason even for being short of money) his DAUGHTER* (*NOT HIS SON but his daughter!!!) as a SLAVE, SHE is not to go free as male slaves do. If she does not please the master who has selected her for himself* (*for whatever kinky pleasure), he must let her be redeemed. He has no right to sell her to foreigners, because he has broken faith with her.

As you can see, which scripture endorses to rape their female slave, bibleor the Quran?

[farhad]

Originally posted by horcrux92
Originally posted by farhad
Originally posted by Nurse57
"its just illogical and stupid to compare life of ancient time to now"

And yet you want people to follow a book written in ancient time. That is just illogical and stupid. Your words.

We follow Quran because its the best guider, name me when was slavery abolished in the west, racism, the burning female widows or infant, women as political leaders, it through Quran which revolutioned and create equality all human weather it be muslim or non-muslim, most of the written human rights in the was already there. Quran abolished Slavery long before west was carrying out these Attrocity, Islam is the fastest growing religion because of its teachings, not followers.

Muslims abolish slavery?! No. A friend of mine went to Egypt a few years ago, and 80% people there are muslims. Now, my friend and his family was walking through a street in Cairo, when a MUSLIM merchant walked up to my friend's parents and offered them two camels in exchange for my mate's sister as slave. So don't come up with this cr*p when slavery is more present in middle-eastern countries than western culture. Racism is also present in the middle east. Doesn't Osama Bin Laden have a hatred of America and the West?

Quran and the Prophet abolished slavery, dont look at certain muslims, I can describe certian christians. There is that whole section in Sahi Bhukari called Manumission of Slave, and according to reports Prophet later on all-together freed over hundereds of slave. Another example is Black Bilal, who was brually treated badly by his own, Prophet heard about this and gave expensive money to buy Bilal of and then set him free. The section to that:section:http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/046.sbt.html

prophet muhammed said "No Arab is superior to a non-Arab, No non-Arab is superior to an Arab, No White person is superior to a Black person, and No Black person is superior to a White person. What do the ant-islamist have to say about that. Again these things were unheard of 14 centuries ago.

I agree in some parts there are racist arabs, there are also racist americans, that doesn't make it part of Prophet's teaching.

[Axiom]

Originally posted by farhad
Originally posted by horcrux92
Originally posted by farhad
Originally posted by Nurse57
"its just illogical and stupid to compare life of ancient time to now"

And yet you want people to follow a book written in ancient time. That is just illogical and stupid. Your words.

We follow Quran because its the best guider, name me when was slavery abolished in the west, racism, the burning female widows or infant, women as political leaders, it through Quran which revolutioned and create equality all human weather it be muslim or non-muslim, most of the written human rights in the was already there. Quran abolished Slavery long before west was carrying out these Attrocity, Islam is the fastest growing religion because of its teachings, not followers.

Muslims abolish slavery?! No. A friend of mine went to Egypt a few years ago, and 80% people there are muslims. Now, my friend and his family was walking through a street in Cairo, when a MUSLIM merchant walked up to my friend's parents and offered them two camels in exchange for my mate's sister as slave. So don't come up with this cr*p when slavery is more present in middle-eastern countries than western culture. Racism is also present in the middle east. Doesn't Osama Bin Laden have a hatred of America and the West?

Quran and the Prophet abolished slavery, dont look at certain muslims, I can describe certian christians. There is that whole section in Sahi Bhukari called Manumission of Slave, and according to reports Prophet later on all-together freed over hundereds of slave. Another example is Black Bilal, who was brually treated badly by his own, Prophet heard about this and gave expensive money to buy Bilal of and then set him free. The section to that:section:http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/046.sbt.html

prophet muhammed said "No Arab is superior to a non-Arab, No non-Arab is superior to an Arab, No White person is superior to a Black person, and No Black person is superior to a White person. What do the ant-islamist have to say about that. Again these things were unheard of 14 centuries ago.

I agree in some parts there are racist arabs, there are also racist americans, that doesn't make it part of Prophet's teaching.

I'm sorry I just can't agree. If the Qu'ran abolished slavery then why is it still present in Islamic countries?

[Nurse57]

I ask again.

You can't have it both ways. Either the ancient stuff is illogical and stupid or it is not. What one is it?

[farhad]

Originally posted by horcrux92
Originally posted by farhad
Originally posted by horcrux92
Originally posted by farhad
Originally posted by Nurse57
"its just illogical and stupid to compare life of ancient time to now"

And yet you want people to follow a book written in ancient time. That is just illogical and stupid. Your words.

We follow Quran because its the best guider, name me when was slavery abolished in the west, racism, the burning female widows or infant, women as political leaders, it through Quran which revolutioned and create equality all human weather it be muslim or non-muslim, most of the written human rights in the was already there. Quran abolished Slavery long before west was carrying out these Attrocity, Islam is the fastest growing religion because of its teachings, not followers.

Muslims abolish slavery?! No. A friend of mine went to Egypt a few years ago, and 80% people there are muslims. Now, my friend and his family was walking through a street in Cairo, when a MUSLIM merchant walked up to my friend's parents and offered them two camels in exchange for my mate's sister as slave. So don't come up with this cr*p when slavery is more present in middle-eastern countries than western culture. Racism is also present in the middle east. Doesn't Osama Bin Laden have a hatred of America and the West?

Quran and the Prophet abolished slavery, dont look at certain muslims, I can describe certian christians. There is that whole section in Sahi Bhukari called Manumission of Slave, and according to reports Prophet later on all-together freed over hundereds of slave. Another example is Black Bilal, who was brually treated badly by his own, Prophet heard about this and gave expensive money to buy Bilal of and then set him free. The section to that:section:http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/046.sbt.html

prophet muhammed said "No Arab is superior to a non-Arab, No non-Arab is superior to an Arab, No White person is superior to a Black person, and No Black person is superior to a White person. What do the ant-islamist have to say about that. Again these things were unheard of 14 centuries ago.

I agree in some parts there are racist arabs, there are also racist americans, that doesn't make it part of Prophet's teaching.

I'm sorry I just can't agree. If the Qu'ran abolished slavery then why is it still present in Islamic countries?

It would be nice if you read the links I rovided you so this misconception of prophet being an evil man can be removed, and look into Quran slavery in wiki compare this to the Bible. Furthermore you might of heard Islamic charity system called Zakat it is obligatory for abled muslims that every year they give charity or 2.5% of their earning to the needs. Again charity system was unheard of before Quran came and set a new system that every abled muslims should obey this and made it compulsory, muslims may enter hell if they dont follow this. Slaves in Islamic country are not being sold to other nations, rather the countires like bangladesh and Pakistan are poor.

“And he hath not attempted the ascent, and what will convey unto thee what the ascent is! It is the setting free of the slaves or the giving of food in the day of hunger to an orphan."(90:11-15).

“Alms are only for the poor and the needy and those who collect them and those whose hearts are to be reconciled and to free the captives and the debtors, for the cause of Allah” (9:60).

There is also human rights for non-muslims under Quran.

GOD in the BIBLE
- regrets! [Gen. 6:6 & 7]
- forgets! [Psalm 13:1] [Lam. 5:20]
- rides a naked female child!
- sleeps [Psalm. 4:23]
- abuses himself! [Jer. 10:18]
- goes to toilet! - he was human (jesus)
- needs food! he was human (jesus)
- makes women eat their innocent children! [Lam. 2:20]
- needs refreshing! [Exo. 31:17]
- is unjust! [Psalm 82:2]

ARE U SAYING THESE ARE WRONG?

[Axiom]

I don't say the prophet is an evil man. All I am saying is that if the Qu'ran is so important to these muslims why are they still permitting slavery?

[farhad]

Originally posted by horcrux92
I don't say the prophet is an evil man. All I am saying is that if the Qu'ran is so important to these muslims why are they still permitting slavery?

Ask them, but dont bring Quran into this because it simply is aginst it. All I'm stating is the abolishment of Slavery western country talk about was already abolished by Prophet Mohammed. Nowadays Muslim countries are poor, the poors need to work somewhere to survive, but Quran layout the guidlines how a slave should be treated, they must not be harmed or given job beyond their capability, a slave should be treated equally, a slave can also inherit according to Quran.

[farhad]

No should blame prophet muhammad aobut slavery, if anything prophet muhammad freed slaves like bilal who was beaten very badly with a heavy stone on his stomach to prophet Muhammad (p.b.u.h) BROUGHT bilal with his own earned MONEY by his good will to stop Bilal from gettin hurt and trying to make prophet sound bad about slavery its not half as bad as you americans who invented slavery in the 1stt palce.

[Nurse57]

I am still awaiting your reply from my previous question.

"already abolished by Prophet Mohammed."

"but Quran layout the guidlines how a slave should be treated"

So it is abolished but you have guidelines, just in case?

[Axiom]

Originally posted by farhad
No should blame prophet muhammad aobut slavery, if anything prophet muhammad freed slaves like bilal who was beaten very badly with a heavy stone on his stomach to prophet Muhammad (p.b.u.h) BROUGHT bilal with his own earned MONEY by his good will to stop Bilal from gettin hurt and trying to make prophet sound bad about slavery its not half as bad as you americans who invented slavery in the 1stt palce.

I didn't say it was the prophet's fault. Also, we are not americans.

[Nurse57]

"its not half as bad as you americans who invented slavery in the 1stt palce."

LOL. Sorry, I thought this was in the serious debate section.

Slavery can be traced to the earliest records, such as the Code of Hammurabi in Mesopotamia (~1800 BC), which refers to slavery as an already established institution.

Where as the slave trade in the US started in British North America around 1619 AD, when a Dutch ship brought 20 enslaved Africans to the Virginia colony at Jamestown. So I make that 3419 year gap.

Are you sure America invented slavery?

[Axiom]

Originally posted by Nurse57
"its not half as bad as you americans who invented slavery in the 1stt palce."

LOL. Sorry, I thought this was in the serious debate section.

Slavery can be traced to the earliest records, such as the Code of Hammurabi in Mesopotamia (~1800 BC), which refers to slavery as an already established institution.

Where as the slave trade in the US started in British North America around 1619 AD, when a Dutch ship brought 20 enslaved Africans to the Virginia colony at Jamestown. So I make that 3419 year gap.

Are you sure America invented slavery?

He is getting desperate to find explanations

[FrenchAffair]

Originally posted by Very_Nayce
Originally posted by FrenchAffair
Originally posted by horcrux92
Religion is the cause of several wars in the world and it is my belief that if there wasn't any religion or if there was just one religion then the world would be a more peaceful place. I myself don't believe in God or anything, but I respect those that do and those in other religions. And for you to say that you can't lead a succesfull life without believing in anything is UTTER BULLSHIT. My family is living proof.

Stalin, Mao, Lenin, Hitler, Pol Pot...... hundreds of millions dead at the hands of atheists and secularists in the last century. Religion isn't the problem, lack of religion & false religion (islam) is the problem.
The inquest, the crusades, witch burnings. Any of it ring a bell, no? Religion kills too. Both are wrong. The only difference is the Atheists dont use a spectre in the sky to justify it.

Atheists these days tend to be the chaps across the street smoking pot listening to albums you dont hear in the charts. Their not a violent subculture by any means.

Crusades were a defensive war that defended Europe from invadeing Muslim hords and the inqusition was responsible for the deaths of no more than 6000 people. harly a blip in terms of attrocities in human history.

[farhad]

Originally posted by FrenchAffair
Originally posted by Very_Nayce
Originally posted by FrenchAffair
Originally posted by horcrux92
Religion is the cause of several wars in the world and it is my belief that if there wasn't any religion or if there was just one religion then the world would be a more peaceful place. I myself don't believe in God or anything, but I respect those that do and those in other religions. And for you to say that you can't lead a succesfull life without believing in anything is UTTER BULLSHIT. My family is living proof.

Stalin, Mao, Lenin, Hitler, Pol Pot...... hundreds of millions dead at the hands of atheists and secularists in the last century. Religion isn't the problem, lack of religion & false religion (islam) is the problem.
The inquest, the crusades, witch burnings. Any of it ring a bell, no? Religion kills too. Both are wrong. The only difference is the Atheists dont use a spectre in the sky to justify it.

Atheists these days tend to be the chaps across the street smoking pot listening to albums you dont hear in the charts. Their not a violent subculture by any means.

Crusades were a defensive war that defended Europe from invadeing Muslim hords and the inqusition was responsible for the deaths of no more than 6000 people. harly a blip in terms of attrocities in human history.

When muslim empire entered in countries, they bought more peace and they didn't destroy everything, Moors and Salladin are great examples, Quran when you go into war, do not steal or destory a tree, or kill women, elders and children, only fight the fight force, whilst Bible calls for destruction and everything should be destroyed. By the way I found the Bible that was hidden mentions Prophet's Mohammed's name by Jesus as the coming of final Messiah, recorded by Barnbass, Jesus's close desciple.:bigsmile:

The verse reads:

"Jesus answered: `The name of the Messiah is admirable one, for God himself gave him the name when he had created his soul, and placed it in a celestial splendour. God said: "Wait Mohammed; for thy sake I will to create paradise, the world, and a great multitude of creatures, whereof I make thee a present, insomuch that whoso bless thee shall be blessed, and whoso shall curse thee shall be accursed. When I shall send thee into the world I shall send thee as my messenger of salvation, and thy word shall be true, insomuch that heaven and earth shall fail, but thy faith shall never fail." Mohammed is his blessed name.' Then the crowd lifted up their voices, saying: `O God, send us thy messenger: O Admirable One, come quickly for the salvation of the world!'" Barnabas 97:9-10. The Italian manuscript replaces "Admirable One" with "Muhammad" [3].

[Nurse57]

Are you just going to ignore every point I pick you up on?

[farhad]

Originally posted by Nurse57
Are you just going to ignore every point I pick you up on?

Its better if try and read the link I gave you.