Should the two James Bulger killers be in prison?

[andyman]

Feb 1993 in bootle, merseyside, a two year old boy leaves his mum side as she is in the butcher's. There he meets two evil 10 year old boys, Jon Venables and Robert Thompson. They killed the child for fun! Beaten the child to death to pass the time, even wanted to push another child under a bus to see what happens. Both evil vile scum of the earth killers are out of prison and living with new identities! Is that fair? Is that true justice for the murder of a small two year old boy who was loved by all? It seems like the evil killers are the victims!

[rayheartbliss]

killing a child for fun? :O

are they even humans

[*mazedsalv**]

How the f have they been released?? Bastards!!

[lily.]

No, it's not justice. I remember this when it happened and I still say it's outrageous that those boys are allowed to lead an almost normal life after what they did, and their identities are protected. They've basically been given the legal right to sweep it under the carpet. They were released about 8 years after the crime.


Here's the wiki page on this subject:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_James_Bulger

[andyman]

Human right laws only aply to the few... The wrong few! Justice?? What fking justice, i hope one day the two evil ***** are found! Then its justice!

[lily.]

The law in this country is a joke.

[rayheartbliss]

what they did will always haunt them......

[pinkmichk]

Originally posted by Freyja
The law in this country is a joke.
totally agree made worse by the fact the country then goes onto give them new identities and protection etc

[rayheartbliss]

thats just not right!

[andyman]

Originally posted by rayheartbliss
what they did will always haunt them...... I doubt they even care! To do what they did they dont have souls... Just pure evil! The law failed us and will continue to do so, drugs and not paying tax is seen as a worse crime :bored:

[rayheartbliss]

Originally posted by andyman
Originally posted by rayheartbliss
what they did will always haunt them...... I doubt they even care! To do what they did they dont have souls... Just pure evil! The law failed us and will continue to do so, drugs and not paying tax is seen as a worse crime :bored:
yerh...
and this is so wrong!

[lily.]

When you delve deeper though, you find that the law failed long before the boys killed.

Both boys were from destructive/abusive homes where they faced abuse and neglect every single day. Yet nothing was ever done to protect them from it. They showed signs of problems at school etc, and nothing was ever done to find out why. Have a good read at the wiki article I posted.

I'm not excusing or condoning their actions. However, once again, the social services failed to protect vulnerable children. In this instance those children turned into cold-blooded killers. In the instance of Baby P for example, the failure to protect led to him being killed.

So, you have to ask yourself if this could all have been prevented had someone actually sat up and took notice of the quality of life these boys had.

However, now that the deed is done, if it were up to me, they'd be behind bars for the rest of their lives. I think they're damaged, and I fear that one day they'll kill again.

[andyman]

They would kill if anybody knew what they did... But yeah its true what you say.

[Sticks]

The law and the professionals are privy to information we are not

[supernoodles!]

I always thought they tied him to a railway track?is this someone else I`m thinking of?

[andyman]

Originally posted by Sticks
The law and the professionals are privy to information we are not I'm sure the truth will come out one day.

[andyman]

Originally posted by supernoodles!
I always thought they tied him to a railway track?is this someone else I`m thinking of? Yes they did that and many other awfull acts to the two year old boy.

[Hugo]

Originally posted by supernoodles!
I always thought they tied him to a railway track?is this someone else I`m thinking of?

They took him on like a 5 mile walk and tortured him along the way by putting paint in his eyes and beating him up. Then they laid him down on the tracks so it would look like he had wondered off and got hit by a train.

-------------------------------------------------------

Anyway, no I don't think that the should still be in prison. I am not defending what they did by the way before I start this.
Anyone that says that these to men have normal lives now they are out of prison are wrong. They have to report to a probhation officer every week for the rest of their lifes. They are constantly changing identities. Don't get to make friends or have/see any family. They have restricted movements ect.
I don't think that you can put an 10 year old in prison for life and thats it. There are so many arguments against it. Can an 10 year old determine for themself what is right or wrong? Have they been abused, brought up very badly? Is it a childs fault they are brought up a certain way which leads to this horrific stuff? You have to look at the bigger picture, even though what they did was evil and disgusting you cannot put and 10 year old away for life. You just can't. No matter what.

[andyman]

10yr old not 8. And you have just defended them! :nono:

[Hugo]

I haven't defended them. I have defended their case.

[lily.]

I see where you are coming from Hugo. You aren't defending them as such, but you are looking at the bigger picture.

It's very difficult to determine what is the right course of action. It's easy for me and others to sit here and say what we would do, but given the responsibility of that decision, maybe we would take into account the fact that they were so young and had such miserable lives prior to this.

It's also difficult for me (and probably others here) as a parent to forgive what they did, or to want anything good for them in light of what they did.

The people who make the decisions about the release etc, have to not make it personal. I can't do that.

[andyman]

Originally posted by HUGO
I haven't defended them. I have defended their case. Same thing! Plus both was nearly 11years old... Awww poor them. Sick!

[Spike]

Prison is pointless for people like them, they need to be taught a real lesson
I would like them to be tortured and killed, I wouldn't mind doing it.

[supernoodles!]

Originally posted by HUGO
Originally posted by supernoodles!
I always thought they tied him to a railway track?is this someone else I`m thinking of?

They took him on like a 5 mile walk and tortured him along the way by putting paint in his eyes and beating him up. Then they laid him down on the tracks so it would look like he had wondered off and got hit by a train.

-------------------------------------------------------

Anyway, no I don't think that the should still be in prison. I am not defending what they did by the way before I start this.
Anyone that says that these to men have normal lives now they are out of prison are wrong. They have to report to a probhation officer every week for the rest of their lifes. They are constantly changing identities. Don't get to make friends or have/see any family. They have restricted movements ect.
I don't think that you can put an 10 year old in prison for life and thats it. There are so many arguments against it. Can an 10 year old determine for themself what is right or wrong? Have they been abused, brought up very badly? Is it a childs fault they are brought up a certain way which leads to this horrific stuff? You have to look at the bigger picture, even though what they did was evil and disgusting you cannot put and 10 year old away for life. You just can't. No matter what.

Oh i see,i thought train tracks came into it somewhere I remember my mam telling me about James when I was very very young,He would have been my age now If he was still alive:sad:I really feel for his family,its a parents worst nightmare

[lily.]

Originally posted by Spike
Prison is pointless for people like them, they need to be taught a real lesson
I would like them to be tortured and killed, I wouldn't mind doing it.

Doesn't that make you as evil as they are though? It doesn't make it right. And, you'd have to live with it. Could you live with killing another, even if it was someone you deemed to be evil?

[JOSHUAH!]

Todays criminal justice is a joke. There are too leanient at giving sentences, and the thing that makes me more mad is that once in jail, the prisoners think of it like a youth club - they get TV, Snooker tables, they have a laugh etc.

It shouldn't be like that at all, especially not TV's in their cells etc.
On the topic of this thread though, Its not right for those two to be on new identites. There was a known criminal in my town with a new identity a few years ago, but after a few months and many threats made, they moved the person on. It kind of shows we aint dumb and we shouldn't be giving criminals the right to live and work in our society where they could strike again.

[lily.]

Mary Bell was also given a new identity. Some of you may not be familiar with her.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Bell

[Red Moon]

May be the should have hanged for the crime?

I'm sure a lot of the general public would go with that... an eye for an eye and all that.

[Sticks]

And that achieves?

An eye for an eye only makes everyone blind - Mahatma Ghandi

[ange7]

Originally posted by Sticks
And that achieves?

An eye for an eye only makes everyone blind - Mahatma Ghandi
I'm with you Sticks! ... I would have ripped Red a new one for comment like that... "eye for an eye" OMG.....

but you quoted Ghandi ... lol nice work

[AndyJK]

Originally posted by andyman
Feb 1993 in bootle, merseyside, a two year old boy leaves his mum side as she is in the butcher's. There he meets two evil 10 year old boys, Jon Venables and Robert Thompson. They killed the child for fun! Beaten the child to death to pass the time, even wanted to push another child under a bus to see what happens. Both evil vile scum of the earth killers are out of prison and living with new identities! Is that fair? Is that true justice for the murder of a small two year old boy who was loved by all? It seems like the evil killers are the victims!

What they did was evil no question, however you have to ask yourself would Venables and Thompson have murdered James Bulger had they come from stable homes. As with a lot of deliquents from broken homes with violent Fathers they fail to distinguish between right and wrong. So the two boys' parents are just as much to blame for the death of James Bulger due to their failure as parents.

[letmein]

These two obviously have mental illness and borderline personality disorder. The prison system messes young kids up even more. It's an extremely sad situation, especially if they came from extremely abusive families. It all fits. These kids didn't even have a chance.

You would have to be EXTREMELY certain that they weren't a danger to society. I would say, keep them locked up until they were at least in their 30s. Getting out sooner, they are still growing, and that could make the outside world even worse for them and could make them end up straight back into prison. That isn't to say that if they were released in their 30s that they couldn't end up straight back into prison. But at least by your 30s, you're a person who has reached full set adulthood.

It's just extremely sad, and these cases are heartbreaking. I'm not sure if these two feel any remorse and anything period for that matter. They sound like extremely broken individuals with an extremely screwed up home life. Their families should also be locked up!

If they are extremely mentally debilitated, they may never be ready to see the outside world again. Who knows? Perhaps mental illness runs in the family, thus ensuring that their families were going to be abusive and destructive from the get go.

What these two did was inexcusable. But a ten-year-old is not rational. The brain is not fully developed. That's just a fact. They still need to pay for what they did though. What punishment is enough, I haven't the answer.

I'm not against giving them new identities if they ever get out though. They will most surely get killed by someone for what they did. If they pay their debt to society, they at least deserve to make a fresh start without being attacked for something they did when they were ten-years-old. They should probably just leave the country.

[30stone]

Not sure if this is the same baby, but the 2boys that stole a baby from the supermarket were released.

They beat the baby, threw bricks at it and eventually left it on a train track thats what i thought anyway.

[AngRemembered]

The animals that killed James Bulger should have been put to death.

Justice by means of the death penalty leaves nobody blind as we only take the lives of those who have chosen to kill another human being, they pay the price for justice with there own life.

Simple, but it dont solve every problem, not that the death penalty claims to either.
However it does achieve more than the woefully inept procedure we have now, namely these animals being set free within 15 years!!! (oringinally the judge wished them 8 years in a secure hospital) It solves the problem of these killers being able to kill again, like so many so called lifers HAVE killed again after serving there LIFE sentance.

15 years for taking away 70+ years from a healthy 2 year old boy, and now 2 more heartless killers walk our streets, they could be your neibour (we have no right to know that).. till these bas*ards kill again.

Now how many would rather be alive and blind rather than perfectly sighted and seeing yourself or a loved one snatched, tortured and brutally killed and slung away like garbage on a railway line?

[andyman]

Can anybody forgive those that murder a loved one?

[AngRemembered]

Originally posted by andyman
Can anybody forgive those that murder a loved one?

I'm sure they can, I could too,

its just I'd rather do my forgiving for them at there own funeral.
Better late, than never... I'm sure Ghandi said that too

[letmein]

Angiebabe, take an extra dosage, will ya?

They were ten. You want 10-year-olds put to death? :rolleyes:

Yes, killing another human being is going to bring another one back. Justice does not mean "evening the score". You simply don't seem to be mature enough to handle this topic. That's not justice.

[30stone]

Originally posted by letmein
Angiebabe, take an extra dosage, will you?

They were ten. You want 10-year-olds put to death? :rolleyes:

Yes, killing another human being is going to bring another one back. Justice does not mean "evening the score". You simply don't seem to be mature enough to handle this topic. That's not justice.

pretty much 2 wrongs dont make a right you may feel better for a day or 2 but you still wont have your baby.

[Locke.]

Originally posted by andyman
Feb 1993 in bootle, merseyside

That's where I live.

Anyway, I think they should both be tortured.

[rayheartbliss]

Originally posted by 30stone
Originally posted by letmein
Angiebabe, take an extra dosage, will you?

They were ten. You want 10-year-olds put to death? :rolleyes:

Yes, killing another human being is going to bring another one back. Justice does not mean "evening the score". You simply don't seem to be mature enough to handle this topic. That's not justice.

pretty much 2 wrongs dont make a right you may feel better for a day or 2 but you still wont have your baby.
thats made me feel uncomfortable!
10 or not, how can they even THINK of "KILLING" a person!
i mean they are 10, they must have been possesed or something!

you absolutely right! the mother of the person they killed will wake up in the morning and not be able to say good moring to her kids!

[30stone]

Originally posted by rayheartbliss
Originally posted by 30stone
Originally posted by letmein
Angiebabe, take an extra dosage, will you?

They were ten. You want 10-year-olds put to death? :rolleyes:

Yes, killing another human being is going to bring another one back. Justice does not mean "evening the score". You simply don't seem to be mature enough to handle this topic. That's not justice.

pretty much 2 wrongs dont make a right you may feel better for a day or 2 but you still wont have your baby.
thats made me feel uncomfortable!
10 or not, how can they even THINK of "KILLING" a person!
i mean they are 10, they must have been possesed or something!

you absolutely right! the mother of the person they killed will wake up in the morning and not be able to say good moring to her kids!

I know its no excuse at all but apprently they had seen a movie that influenced them and when kids are young they take in things like that hence the reason for age restrictions on movies and games.

Don't know how you could still.

[andyman]

How many kids come from broken homes? How many kids have seen a horror movie?.... How many of them enjoy killing a 2year old boy For FUN?!?! Our system is all out the human rights of those that do the crime! Just think if 2 evil thugs take away your loved on! The law protect too much evil while the good have to keep on suffering...

[30stone]

Originally posted by andyman
How many kids come from broken homes? How many kids have seen a horror movie?.... How many of them enjoy killing a 2year old boy For FUN?!?! Our system is all out the human rights of those that do the crime! Just think if 2 evil thugs take away your loved on! The law protect too much evil while the good have to keep on suffering...

Lol dont shoot the messanger lol.

i was just saying what i knew and like i said its no excuse. Just what i have heard about it

[GiRTh]

I remember reading that one of Bulgers killers had totally reformed and was now a genuinely upstanding citizen.

It bring back the old question of whether prison exists to punish or to rehabilitate.

[NettoSuperstar!]

The Lynch mob are out in force again I see! It really saddens me that people are talking about hanging ten year olds! Almost as much as it saddened me about that little boy dying the way he did.

Anyone seen Boy A? Its supposed to be based on the bulger case, sad really really sad. You treat people like animals from the day they are born they're gonna behave like animals!

[ange7]

Originally posted by NettoSuperstar!
The Lynch mob are out in force again I see! It really saddens me that people are talking about hanging ten year olds! Almost as much as it saddened me about that little boy dying the way he did.

Anyone seen Boy A? Its supposed to be based on the bulger case, sad really really sad. You treat people like animals from the day they are born they're going to behave like animals!
isn't hilarious ... there calling for death penalty for children. Don't dare argue against them or you'll be seen as supporting murders.... It's mind blowing how reductive some of these positions are. Everything is so black and white when you couldn't be a$$ed thinking about it and your motivated more by hate rather than making a difference. They want to copy a US criminal sentencing policy... hard on crime!! rah rah rah!! hehe mean while the US has 1 out of every 130 behind bars....well over 2 milion.. Lol yeah that works.

I think people who scream about harder sentences are motivated more by the prospect of wagging their fingers at the world from the moral high ground rather than doing the hard yards by coming up with a real solution. "Tough on crime" has been tried over and over again.

[ange7]

Originally posted by andyman
How many kids come from broken homes? How many kids have seen a horror movie?.... How many of them enjoy killing a 2year old boy For FUN?!?! Our system is all out the human rights of those that do the crime! Just think if 2 evil thugs take away your loved on! The law protect too much evil while the good have to keep on suffering...
They were 10!! ... they were idiots and they were damaged. But that's too mush hard work for you to get your head around so you reduce it to "they are evil". This speaks greater about you than it does them. What's the solution andyman... did you want them murdered?...are you hungry for blood? Do you agree with Angiebabe how wants them killed ..."eye for an eye" but on another said that under NO circumstance should anyone ever take another person's life.

[letmein]

Originally posted by andyman
How many kids come from broken homes? How many kids have seen a horror movie?.... How many of them enjoy killing a 2year old boy For FUN?!?! Our system is all out the human rights of those that do the crime! Just think if 2 evil thugs take away your loved on! The law protect too much evil while the good have to keep on suffering...

Most children who come from broken abusive homes, become criminals, and serial killers. Yes. Equating seeing horror movies, with being abused sadistically by your parents, just shows you're not mature to be discussing this. 10-year-olds do not have the brain of an adult. It's that simple.

[letmein]

Originally posted by David
Originally posted by andyman
Feb 1993 in bootle, merseyside

That's where I live.

Anyway, I think they should both be tortured. Yes. Go torture and abuse them like their parents. Your mentality is the same as those who are serial killers. You don't torture 10-year-olds. Jesus!

[lily.]

I'm with you Ange. I've previously said in this thread that I wouldn't like to be in the position of making the decision on how to punish those boys, because I couldn't do it without letting emotion get involved, and the people who have to make that decision must be able to make it reasonably.

Angiebabe, I can't believe a mother would support killing children - no matter what their crime was.

[ange7]

Originally posted by letmein
Originally posted by David
Originally posted by andyman
Feb 1993 in bootle, merseyside

That's where I live.

Anyway, I think they should both be tortured. Yes. Go torture and abuse them like their parents. Your mentality is the same as those who are serial killers. You don't torture 10-year-olds. Jesus!
it's like they couldn't be bothered working it out all the angles of the problem and would rather out do themselves in shows of moral repugnance. They're aren't motivated by the need to solve this in a social sense but rather need to to SHOW how much they ARE NOT like these two kids. It's funny because in out doing themselves they become more like those that they revile. It's all for show... they are saying " I want to be seen as this type of person who is sooo morally upright ... hmmm how do I do that... I know.. 'I want those kids burned alive' ".

[ange7]

Originally posted by Freyja
I'm with you Ange. I've previously said in this thread that I wouldn't like to be in the position of making the decision on how to punish those boys, because I couldn't do it without letting emotion get involved, and the people who have to make that decision must be able to make it reasonably.

Angiebabe, I can't believe a mother would support killing children - no matter what their crime was.

Yeah it would be horrific. But the judges deal with that every day only to have people on the sides lines who couldn't be bothered sitting through the months of evidence just scream "Our system is all about the human rights of those that do the crime". This line wouldn't make sense to anyone except a crazed lynch mob full of self righteous grandstanders with a blood lust.

[Novo]

Originally posted by letmein
Originally posted by David
Originally posted by andyman
Feb 1993 in bootle, merseyside

That's where I live.

Anyway, I think they should both be tortured. Yes. Go torture and abuse them like their parents. Your mentality is the same as those who are serial killers. You don't torture 10-year-olds. Jesus!

His mentality is not the same as serial killers thats the worst thing i've ever heard on here :joker:

don't you think your defending them a bit to much now

if it was me i'd lock them up for good so they could never repeat what they did again

[M X]

Why the **** were those scumbags released?

[ange7]

Originally posted by TheMichaelO
Why the **** were those scumbags released?
yeah!!!.... what do you think should be done to them?

[NettoSuperstar!]

Originally posted by Spike
Prison is pointless for people like them, they need to be taught a real lesson
I would like them to be tortured and killed, I wouldn't mind doing it.

Oh the Irony!

[NettoSuperstar!]

your dealing with 10 year olds here at the end of the day! 10 year olds!! 10 year old CHILDREN who have been tortured and beaten themselves! Are you people not grasping this simple fact!? And yes to want to torture and murder them yourselves makes you as bad!

[AngRemembered]

Originally posted by Freyja


Angiebabe, I can't believe a mother would support killing children - no matter what their crime was.

I support proper justice, not killing children... Its because I care for the lives of children I dont and cant find excuses for murder.. It should not happen, and the only sure way to stop people who murder from murdering again IS to properly stop them.
Oh, and I'm not the only one either, the powers that be know full well if WE were given a vote on this the DEATH penalty WOULD be brought back and soon.

These monsters ceased to become 'children' the moment they PLANED!!!! (lets never forget that)
these monsters actually went out that day to kill someones child, James Bulger was the SECOND child that morning they led away, the first escaped when the child started crying.

Thats why the first inept waste of space attempt at justice, a judge ordered they spend just 8 years!!! (8 years is that all an innocent childs life is worth now) locked away was CORRECTLY thrown out, and they were made to stand trial as adults accused of murder.

I cant believe any mother who wouldnt want justice done the only way possible for these two beasts, and that is to kill them... at the very least it stops them killing again.
Maybe people like this first judge orta stick down thier name to volanteer breaking the news to a future mother who's innocent child is snatched, tortured and killed by these pair, when it happens again.

Because it will happen again, especially when our courts give murderers a slap on the wrist and ask them not to do it again... instead of finding excuses for them and there crimes how about for once actually think of the family of those lives they take and ruin, James Bulger's mother WAS in support of the death penalty, sadly her oppinion counted for nothing.. we knew best so we further insulted James and his memory by letting these monsters go free to live a full life, which is what they enjoy now, ALL of which is at our (taxpayers) cost, is that anywhere near justice?

I suppose only a mother could and would know what best suites justice in hideous crimes like these, because it sure as hell is not what an old male judge considers just and fair, thats for sure.

[Locke.]

Originally posted by letmein
Originally posted by David
Originally posted by andyman
Feb 1993 in bootle, merseyside

That's where I live.

Anyway, I think they should both be tortured. Yes. Go torture and abuse them like their parents. Your mentality is the same as those who are serial killers. You don't torture 10-year-olds. Jesus!

:laugh2: :laugh3: :joker: :laugh2: :laugh3: :joker: :laugh2:
:laugh3: :joker: :laugh2: :laugh3: :joker: :laugh2: :laugh3:

[lily.]

But Angie, I'm a mother, and I have a different viewpoint.

I don't like that they are free. I don't think they should be free, but I still can't support killing children, no matter their crime.

I know how horrendous their crime was. I was an adult at the time, so I remember it very well. However, I just can't agree with you on this one at all. I feel very strongly against the death penalty and it's not on religious grounds, it's based on the fact that I view "taking a life" as wrong, no matter what the reason.

We, the public don't have that right (in my view) to decide the fate of these boys.

On a personal level, if someone harmed my child, I would harm them, and I'd pay the consequences for it. But that would be a personal offence to me and my family, so I'd take retribution.

I know my post is a complete contradiction, but I think it's dangerous to be allowed to make a judgement call on a crime which didn't personally affect you or yours.

[AngRemembered]

Originally posted by Freyja
But Angie, I'm a mother, and I have a different viewpoint.

I don't like that they are free. I don't think they should be free, but I still can't support killing children, no matter their crime.

I know how horrendous their crime was. I was an adult at the time, so I remember it very well. However, I just can't agree with you on this one at all. I feel very strongly against the death penalty and it's not on religious grounds, it's based on the fact that I view "taking a life" as wrong, no matter what the reason.

We, the public don't have that right (in my view) to decide the fate of these boys.

On a personal level, if someone harmed my child, I would harm them, and I'd pay the consequences for it. But that would be a personal offence to me and my family, so I'd take retribution.

I know my post is a complete contradiction, but I think it's dangerous to be allowed to make a judgement call on a crime which didn't personally affect you or yours.


Thats a very honest and balanced argument Freyja, I appreciate that espeicially your honesty, and ironicly I would'nt take retribution on anyone harming my family I'd leave it to the proper authorities, maybe thats why we may disagree.

I suppose I'd be happier if a life sentance meant just that, anything so these 2 killers are NEVER allowed to kill again... or be the victims of an equally sadistic and misguided vigilante group hell bent on meting out a punishment similar to their sick act.

[30stone]

Also arent the 21 now?

[AngRemembered]

Originally posted by 30stone
Also arent the 21 now?

I think they are both 26 now

[lily.]

Yeah, they'll be around 25 or 26..

I'd like proper life sentences imposed on certain offenders.

The powers that be used to say it wasn't fair to keep Myra Hindley locked up indefinitely when others got out within 8 or 10 years, but I view it the other way around. I think it's ridiculous to let them out in a short time and I wish more offenders were kept indefinitely.

But, it's always going to come down to money in the end, and prison over-crowding. I'd much rather my tax money went on protecting society from murderers and paedophiles than building fancy parliament buildings for bad decisions to be made in.

[Z]

I think people overlook the potential for reform, here. There is no excusing what they did, but they were children themselves at the time. It was cold, calculated murder, yes - but did they really understand what it was they were doing? Children have impulses to hurt other people (ever had a temper tantrum before?) but in this case, these two children picked on a toddler. I'd just like to clarify that I'm not defending them, before I continue.

They spent enough years in prison to miss out on their teenage years, to be away from the influences of society that can often turn an "innocent" person into somebody quite corrupt and potentially harmful. With these two boys, it's the reverse effect, they've been removed from society and clearly had reformed enough to be deemed fit to live in society again. Nobody but those who were involved in the case can truly say whether they'd reformed or if it was an act, but I would imagine those two guys must live in fear of retribution from a member of the public, and will be keeping a low profile for the rest of their lives.

[30stone]

So have they come out under new names or somthing as id think that if they like come back into society there would be people who like damaged their house n that.


Bet the mother of the 2 boys had a really hard time now i think about it..

[lily.]

They weren't related Ben. They were friends. And they do have new identities now. So do some of their families, because of it.

[ange7]

Originally posted by Zee
I think people overlook the potential for reform, here. There is no excusing what they did, but they were children themselves at the time. It was cold, calculated murder, yes - but did they really understand what it was they were doing? Children have impulses to hurt other people (ever had a temper tantrum before?) but in this case, these two children picked on a toddler. I'd just like to clarify that I'm not defending them, before I continue.

They spent enough years in prison to miss out on their teenage years, to be away from the influences of society that can often turn an "innocent" person into somebody quite corrupt and potentially harmful. With these two boys, it's the reverse effect, they've been removed from society and clearly had reformed enough to be deemed fit to live in society again. Nobody but those who were involved in the case can truly say whether they'd reformed or if it was an act, but I would imagine those two guys must live in fear of retribution from a member of the public, and will be keeping a low profile for the rest of their lives.
agree but that argument contradicts what alot of people here think and that is that these kids are "the devil" lol ... seriously. They think the evil they did came from within them and wasn't a product of their upbringing , eviroment etc. It's alot easier to just say " they are evil! .. kill them!, they can't be reformed!" rather than to delve into what social condition these act are a product of. Honestly this thread sounds like a mob of which burners from the 1600's. Lol and then they try cheap shots like " you all don't understand it like I do because I'm a mother ...." OMG!

[ange7]

Originally posted by David
Originally posted by letmein
Originally posted by David
Originally posted by andyman
Feb 1993 in bootle, merseyside

That's where I live.

Anyway, I think they should both be tortured. Yes. Go torture and abuse them like their parents. Your mentality is the same as those who are serial killers. You don't torture 10-year-olds. Jesus!

:laugh2: :laugh3: :joker: :laugh2: :laugh3: :joker: :laugh2:
:laugh3: :joker: :laugh2: :laugh3: :joker: :laugh2: :laugh3:

lol... why stop at 14? I've noticed a correlation between the scale of the over use of emoticons by a user and the complete OWNAGE they've suffered.
hehe
oh wait ... or do you plane to torture them with cute lil'emoticons? :tongue:

[AngRemembered]

Originally posted by Zee
I think people overlook the potential for reform, here. There is no excusing what they did, but they were children themselves at the time. It was cold, calculated murder, yes - but did they really understand what it was they were doing? Children have impulses to hurt other people (ever had a temper tantrum before?)

Yes, these animals DID know what they were doing and they did know right from wrong.
Do you honestly think they would have gone to trial 8 months after arrest without being evaluated by child phycologists to ascertain there state of mind?

To suggest the parralell with a childs 'temper tantrum' is laughable at best and quite insulting at worst.
These two quaint little lambs woke up that day met up and decided to KILL a child (thats there admission, not my oppinion) they failed in there first attempt that morning but later succeeded with James Bulger.
They did not lead him away and quickly stab the boy, they walked a 2 year old at least 2 miles away before torturing the scared lad and then strangling him to death.
They had the best part of 5-6 hours to let him go but they chose not to, these wernt your average naughty boys if so the first Judge (the right honourable thick tw*t) who thought 8 years in a youth offenders institute (or Pontins as its also known as by your above average naughty boy) would have been sufficient.
However on appeal it was again proven to this excuse for a judge that these two were an exceptional case based on the crime they had committed in full knowledge of exactly what they were doing and therefore a more substantial (still woefully short of proper justice) sentance was handed down to them.

These two callous killers had the help and understanding of every expert and agency watching out for them over ALL the time they were arrested till trial they were treated more than fairly here, the victim was afforde NO dignity at all by these two in return.
You wont reform people as sadistic as this NO matter how much you try, we have had over 50 years of trying, reforming, youth camps with brand new sports equipment, adventure holidays, and 3 good wholesome meals a day yet the net result of all this pampering to the accused is they get more viscious more sadistic with each victim they kill.

When will the balance swing in favour of the innocent victim just once would be nice, save all this wasted money on 1, a rope 2, a hangman, and if that sounds way to wicked then how about a life sentance meaning life in prison, not just for a few Christmas's.
Has the justice system got so lame now, all one has to do is ask for proper consideration for a victim of crime to be labelled some sort of freak?
Maybe when these two kill again things might change, but in many other similar cases where that has happened already, I doubt it.
And then people wonder why so many join vigilante groups, thats what happens when justice is not seen to be done.

[NettoSuperstar!]

"You wont reform people as sadistic as this NO matter how much you try, we have had over 50 years of trying, reforming, youth camps with brand new sports equipment, adventure holidays, and 3 good wholesome meals a day yet the net result of all this pampering to the accused is they get more viscious more sadistic with each victim they kill."

This is completely unfounded. We are talking about 10 year old children here not hardened psychopaths. They were taken from their environment that YES did turn them into animals, and deemed to have been rehabilitated by experts. We are not experts in this area though some claim to be! Their behaviour was sickening and abhorrent but they are not the spawn of the devil they were extremely damaged young CHILDREN who had been abused themselves. These are not excuses it is just a sad fact and hanging children is as abhorrent as what they did!

[AngRemembered]

Originally posted by NettoSuperstar!


This is completely unfounded. We are talking about 10 year old children here not hardened psychopaths. They were taken from their environment that YES did turn them into animals, and deemed to have been rehabilitated by experts. We are not experts in this area though some claim to be! Their behaviour was sickening and abhorrent but they are not the spawn of the devil they were extremely damaged young CHILDREN who had been abused themselves. These are not excuses it is just a sad fact and hanging children is as abhorrent as what they did!

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/convicted-murderer-killed-again-after-release-706972.html

http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/2214214.sentenced_to_life_freed_to_kill_again/

Just 2 of the many cases found on a simple google search for "killers who kill again after serving a life sentance"

So its not so "unfounded" and proves at least (there are hundreds more) 2 innocent people would still be alive today had these wonderfully reformed young men served (at leat) the sentance they were given at trial.
How many more times must the "prison reforms people" argument fail before we start giving a thought to the REAL victims of crime?

Yet increbibly, it is the deluded libral thinking who are most genuinely shocked when equally deluded groups of vigilantes go out to seek justice of there own.
Whats so wrong with prison being a punishment and a place where one spends 50 years (minimum) for a crime such as murder?
In the above cases the 2 people not getting killed by "lifers" are going to be happier, and on the other hand your going to feel easier knowing that the feformation of these poor mistaken charectors is going to take 35 years longer to achieve better results, what harm could that do?

Oh, and to say the hanging of the James Bulger killers is "as abhorent as what they did" is no fact.
Hanging perpertrators of muder would be a punishment for a crime worthy of such severity.
On the other hand torturing a 2 year old and slowly strangling what little life he had left at the time all because he strayed away from his mother whilst she was being served in a shop is a punishment only the "spawn of the devil" who contemplate, if not i dread to think what is.

[NettoSuperstar!]

Originally posted by Angiebabe
Originally posted by NettoSuperstar!


This is completely unfounded. We are talking about 10 year old children here not hardened psychopaths. They were taken from their environment that YES did turn them into animals, and deemed to have been rehabilitated by experts. We are not experts in this area though some claim to be! Their behaviour was sickening and abhorrent but they are not the spawn of the devil they were extremely damaged young CHILDREN who had been abused themselves. These are not excuses it is just a sad fact and hanging children is as abhorrent as what they did!

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/convicted-murderer-killed-again-after-release-706972.html

http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/2214214.sentenced_to_life_freed_to_kill_again/

Just 2 of the many cases found on a simple google search for "killers who kill again after serving a life sentance"

So its not so "unfounded" and proves at least (there are hundreds more) 2 innocent people would still be alive today had these wonderfully reformed young men served (at leat) the sentance they were given at trial.
How many more times must the "prison reforms people" argument fail before we start giving a thought to the REAL victims of crime?

Yet increbibly, it is the deluded libral thinking who are most genuinely shocked when equally deluded groups of vigilantes go out to seek justice of there own.
Whats so wrong with prison being a punishment and a place where one spends 50 years (minimum) for a crime such as murder?
In the above cases the 2 people not getting killed by "lifers" are going to be happier, and on the other hand your going to feel easier knowing that the feformation of these poor mistaken charectors is going to take 35 years longer to achieve better results, what harm could that do?

Oh, and to say the hanging of the James Bulger killers is "as abhorent as what they did" is no fact.
Hanging perpertrators of muder would be a punishment for a crime worthy of such severity.
On the other hand torturing a 2 year old and slowly strangling what little life he had left at the time all because he strayed away from his mother whilst she was being served in a shop is a punishment only the "spawn of the devil" who contemplate, if not i dread to think what is.

These are not children. 10 year old minds are not fully formed enough to be pathological. If someone is deemed to be a psychopath and incapable of redemption they should stay in prison I agree there. These boys didnt fall in to that category.

[NettoSuperstar!]

Liberal thinking is not deluded it is based on careful and rational thought on all the facts! the other extreme is based on nothing more than hate and retribution

[GiRTh]

Originally posted by NettoSuperstar!
Originally posted by Angiebabe
Originally posted by NettoSuperstar!


This is completely unfounded. We are talking about 10 year old children here not hardened psychopaths. They were taken from their environment that YES did turn them into animals, and deemed to have been rehabilitated by experts. We are not experts in this area though some claim to be! Their behaviour was sickening and abhorrent but they are not the spawn of the devil they were extremely damaged young CHILDREN who had been abused themselves. These are not excuses it is just a sad fact and hanging children is as abhorrent as what they did!

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/convicted-murderer-killed-again-after-release-706972.html

http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/2214214.sentenced_to_life_freed_to_kill_again/

Just 2 of the many cases found on a simple google search for "killers who kill again after serving a life sentance"

So its not so "unfounded" and proves at least (there are hundreds more) 2 innocent people would still be alive today had these wonderfully reformed young men served (at leat) the sentance they were given at trial.
How many more times must the "prison reforms people" argument fail before we start giving a thought to the REAL victims of crime?

Yet increbibly, it is the deluded libral thinking who are most genuinely shocked when equally deluded groups of vigilantes go out to seek justice of there own.
Whats so wrong with prison being a punishment and a place where one spends 50 years (minimum) for a crime such as murder?
In the above cases the 2 people not getting killed by "lifers" are going to be happier, and on the other hand your going to feel easier knowing that the feformation of these poor mistaken charectors is going to take 35 years longer to achieve better results, what harm could that do?

Oh, and to say the hanging of the James Bulger killers is "as abhorent as what they did" is no fact.
Hanging perpertrators of muder would be a punishment for a crime worthy of such severity.
On the other hand torturing a 2 year old and slowly strangling what little life he had left at the time all because he strayed away from his mother whilst she was being served in a shop is a punishment only the "spawn of the devil" who contemplate, if not i dread to think what is.

These are not children. 10 year old minds are not fully formed enough to be pathological I totally agree.

Angie, can I ask you a personal question? How would you feel if on e of them was your child and people like yourself were as good as saying he should be killed for a crime he committed when he was a boy?

[andyman]

Yet again the dumb support the human rights of the killers... Its people like that who fk up the justice system.

Please don't call people dumb just because they don't have the opinion as you. You will just offend people. - Red

[NettoSuperstar!]

Originally posted by andyman
Yet again the dumb support the human rights of the killers... Its people like that who fk up the justice system.

Please don't call people dumb just because they don't have the opinion as you. You will just offend people. - Red

no it is you who are deaf dumb and blind to all the facts and base your opinion on hate and anger!

I understand you are upset my the last members post but it's best not to bother repying - Red

[GiRTh]

Originally posted by andyman
Yet again the dumb support the human rights of the killers... Its people like that who fk up the justice system. Who's suporting the human rights of the killers? Personally, I'm just not into killing children.

[andyman]

Originally posted by NettoSuperstar!
Liberal thinking is not deluded it is based on careful and rational thought on all the facts! the other extreme is based on nothing more than hate and retribution Hence human rights for killers :rolleyes:

[NettoSuperstar!]

Originally posted by andyman
Originally posted by NettoSuperstar!
Liberal thinking is not deluded it is based on careful and rational thought on all the facts! the other extreme is based on nothing more than hate and retribution Hence human rights for killers :rolleyes:

hence human rights for children who have been abused and brutalised from tiny toddlers themselves.

[Locke.]

Originally posted by ange7
Originally posted by David
Originally posted by letmein
Originally posted by David
Originally posted by andyman
Feb 1993 in bootle, merseyside

That's where I live.

Anyway, I think they should both be tortured. Yes. Go torture and abuse them like their parents. Your mentality is the same as those who are serial killers. You don't torture 10-year-olds. Jesus!

:laugh2: :laugh3: :joker: :laugh2: :laugh3: :joker: :laugh2:
:laugh3: :joker: :laugh2: :laugh3: :joker: :laugh2: :laugh3:

lol... why stop at 14? I've noticed a correlation between the scale of the over use of emoticons by a user and the complete OWNAGE they've suffered.
hehe
oh wait ... or do you plane to torture them with cute lil'emoticons? :tongue:

I wanted to make a nice pattern. And there was no 'OWNAGE' about it, just complete stupidity on his/her part (it did make me laugh though, so thanks for that.)

[andyman]

Originally posted by GiRTh
Originally posted by andyman
Yet again the dumb support the human rights of the killers... Its people like that who fk up the justice system. Who's suporting the human rights of the killers? Personally, I'm just not into killing children. I dont want children to be killed by the legal systen... Longer in prison!! And more support for the VICTIMS!

[GiRTh]

Originally posted by andyman
Originally posted by GiRTh
Originally posted by andyman
Yet again the dumb support the human rights of the killers... Its people like that who fk up the justice system. Who's suporting the human rights of the killers? Personally, I'm just not into killing children. I dont want children to be killed by the legal systen... Longer in prison!! And more support for the VICTIMS! Agreed.:thumbs:

[andyman]

Originally posted by NettoSuperstar!
Originally posted by andyman
Originally posted by NettoSuperstar!
Liberal thinking is not deluded it is based on careful and rational thought on all the facts! the other extreme is based on nothing more than hate and retribution Hence human rights for killers :rolleyes:

hence human rights for children who have been abused and brutalised from tiny toddlers themselves.

Post removed by Sunny_01 and warning issued for being rude to other members.

[AngRemembered]

Originally posted by GiRTh
I totally agree.

Angie, can I ask you a personal question? How would you feel if this was your child and people like yourself were as good as saying he should be killed for a crime he committed when he was a boy?

I would fight till my last breath for mercy for them, but fully understand and respect why socierty wished to carry out a proper and just punishment.

If it makes people any easier why not hang these when they are adults then?
or at the very least let them serve a sentance which properly compensates the life they took, surely not doing that is a travesty to the memory of the victim and there loved ones.

Yeah I'd fight hard to save my child from the death penalty but I'd die fighting to make sure justice was done if ever a child of mine became a victim of murder.
Whats really frightening (and more to the point) here is the fact mine and our children are (despite the statistics) much more likely to fall into the latter catergory ..and I dont feel comfortable feeling anyway thankul for that than falling into the former catergory.

[GiRTh]

Originally posted by Angiebabe
I would fight till my last breath for mercy for them, but fully understand and respect why socierty wished to carry out a proper and just punishment.

If it makes people any easier why not hang these when they are adults then?
or at the very least let them serve a sentance which properly compensates the life they took, surely not doing that is a travesty to the memory of the victim and there loved ones.

Yeah I'd fight hard to save my child from the death penalty but I'd die fighting to make sure justice was done if ever a child of mine became a victim of murder.
Whats really frightening (and more to the point) here is the fact mine and our children are (despite the statistics) much more likely to fall into the latter catergory ..and I dont feel comfortable feeling anyway thankul for that than falling into the former catergory. That's a very fair answer.:thumbs:

I think the severity of the crime sometimes over shadows the fact that it was committed when they were children. That is not an excuse but I feel its improtant to state when talking of the death penalty, that we're talking about a crime commited by two children. I'm for longer sentences and life should mean life but I'm not in favour of issuing the death penalty to a child.

[NettoSuperstar!]

Originally posted by andyman
Originally posted by NettoSuperstar!
Originally posted by andyman
Originally posted by NettoSuperstar!
Liberal thinking is not deluded it is based on careful and rational thought on all the facts! the other extreme is based on nothing more than hate and retribution Hence human rights for killers :rolleyes:

hence human rights for children who have been abused and brutalised from tiny toddlers themselves. Your reply is sick and twisted! You fairy weak far left wacko views fk up the system.

Lol you really have no clue do you? I am sick and twisted for putting my trust in the experts who have worked with these CHILDREN rather than siding with the hate mob!

[AngRemembered]

Originally posted by GiRTh
Originally posted by Angiebabe
I would fight till my last breath for mercy for them, but fully understand and respect why socierty wished to carry out a proper and just punishment.

If it makes people any easier why not hang these when they are adults then?
or at the very least let them serve a sentance which properly compensates the life they took, surely not doing that is a travesty to the memory of the victim and there loved ones.

Yeah I'd fight hard to save my child from the death penalty but I'd die fighting to make sure justice was done if ever a child of mine became a victim of murder.
Whats really frightening (and more to the point) here is the fact mine and our children are (despite the statistics) much more likely to fall into the latter catergory ..and I dont feel comfortable feeling anyway thankul for that than falling into the former catergory. That's a very fair answer.:thumbs:

I think the severity of the crime sometimes over shadows the fact that it was committed when they were children. That is not an excuse but I feel its improtant to state when talking of the death penalty, that we're talking about a crime commited by two children. I'm for longer sentences and life should mean life but I'm not in favour of issuing the death penalty to a child.

Neither am I, in favour of serving a death sentance on a child.
I'd sever it when they had reached 18.

I was always in favour of a life sentance meaning life ( a minimum 50 years before parol would be considered)
And for the more severe crimes (mass murder, serial killers) a life sentance without parol.

However, the problem with that I have is, why waste resourses on criminals like Ian Huntley, Peter Sutcliffe, Rose West ect... when it is most unlikely they will ever be given freedom?
Would it not be in everyones interest to re-instate the death penalty and give EVERYONE the proper right and chance for justice, this time however the victims famillies too get a look in, its long overdue and its a FACT it also saves lives, as "lifers" DO kill again.

[GiRTh]

Originally posted by Angiebabe

However, the problem with that I have is, why waste resourses on criminals like Ian Huntley, Peter Sutcliffe, Rose West ect... when it is most unlikely they will ever be given freedom?
Would it not be in everyones interest to re-instate the death penalty and give EVERYONE the proper right and chance for justice, this time however the victims famillies too get a look in, its long overdue and its a FACT it also saves lives, as "lifers" DO kill again. The problem is who gets the make the decison? Who decides that this one dies but that ones crime is not severe enough for them to die? This is my main problem with the death penalty for certain crimes. In principle its a fiar point but in reality some cases would go round and round in court for years.

[lily.]

Originally posted by andyman
Originally posted by NettoSuperstar!
Originally posted by andyman
Originally posted by NettoSuperstar!
Liberal thinking is not deluded it is based on careful and rational thought on all the facts! the other extreme is based on nothing more than hate and retribution Hence human rights for killers :rolleyes:

hence human rights for children who have been abused and brutalised from tiny toddlers themselves. Your reply is sick and twisted! You fairy weak far left wacko views fk up the system.

Seek help.

[NettoSuperstar!]

Originally posted by GiRTh
Originally posted by andyman
Originally posted by GiRTh
Originally posted by andyman
Yet again the dumb support the human rights of the killers... Its people like that who fk up the justice system. Who's suporting the human rights of the killers? Personally, I'm just not into killing children. I dont want children to be killed by the legal systen... Longer in prison!! And more support for the VICTIMS! Agreed.:thumbs:

longer in prison for adult psychopaths and serial killers and the like yes. When it comes to 10 year old children you have to put your trust in educated Psychologists and experts as to how long is long enough.

[AngRemembered]

Originally posted by GiRTh
The problem is who gets the make the decison? Who decides that this one dies but that ones crime is not severe enough for them to die? This is my main problem with the death penalty for certain crimes. In principle its a fiar point but in reality some cases would go round and round in court for years.

Well I'd be happy for those that murder and plead guilty to have there sentance commuted to life(either with or without parol) then you save needles pain again to victims famillys at long trials, and save socierty huge court costs (money that could be used for fighting crime)

For the accused who go through a full trial why not let a jury decide on its case merit, they have heard the evidence and are given the big descion of all whether the accused is guilty or not... why not let them also decided whether thier crime also warrents the death penalty or not.

[Sticks]

Two words

Steven Cusko

[andyman]

Originally posted by Sticks
Two words

Steven Cusko :shrug:

[Sticks]

This was a man convicted of a savage murder, because police withheld evidence that actually proved him innocent. He was locked up for several years before this came to light.

[andyman]

Originally posted by Sticks
This was a man convicted of a savage murder, because police withheld evidence that actually proved him innocent. He was locked up for several years before this came to light. Then the police lied... So do you want to give killers the benefit of the doubt due to a chance of he/she being innocent? ..... Death row helps.

[ange7]

Originally posted by andyman
Originally posted by NettoSuperstar!
Originally posted by andyman
Originally posted by NettoSuperstar!
Liberal thinking is not deluded it is based on careful and rational thought on all the facts! the other extreme is based on nothing more than hate and retribution Hence human rights for killers :rolleyes:

hence human rights for children who have been abused and brutalised from tiny toddlers themselves. Your reply is sick and twisted! You fairy weak far left wacko views fk up the system.

ahh!.... there's the andyman we all know ..

we're all "dumb" "sick" and "twisted". Having to resort to offensive slurs when your "argument" runs out is .... well it's you all over. Reminds me of "vile vile scum vile" ... you always through around.

Mate why not argue your point instead of getting nasty and attacking the very moral foundation of people who disagree with you. Surely if your position is so right you wouldn't need to resort to cheap shots. ... lol but you do so there you are.

[andyman]

So you are a far left wacko who supports the human rights of killers?

[ange7]

Originally posted by andyman
Originally posted by Sticks
This was a man convicted of a savage murder, because police withheld evidence that actually proved him innocent. He was locked up for several years before this came to light. Then the police lied... So do you want to give killers the benefit of the doubt due to a chance of he/she being innocent? ..... Death row helps.
lol ... point is in cases where the innocent are found guilty a death penalty would give no recourse. ... death row helps?

To answer your question YES ... it's how the criminal justice system works mate ... and has done so for over 400 years... lol. Your guilty ONLY when there is an absence of a "reasonable doubt". So your question is kind of funny given they've worked that one out centuries ago.

[andyman]

So you support human rights for killers?

[ange7]

Originally posted by andyman
So you are a far left wacko who supports the human rights of killers?
I support the rights of humans. I support the right of people to remain human and not feel as though they need to prove their goodness by bloodying their hands in the hate and bile that clearly motivates your life.

[ange7]

oh and the rights of an individual and af a citzen are NOT a far left philosophy but infact come from the right of the political spectrum so you kind of don't know what your talking about ...sorry.

[andyman]

So you agree that those that kill should still have their human rights? You for real or another trendy wacko far left view on life?

[andyman]

Originally posted by ange7
oh and the rights of an individual and af a citzen are NOT a far left philosophy but infact come from the right of the political spectrum so you kind of don't know what your talking about ...sorry. Hence the debate and if the law should change... Best you keep out the sun :bored:

[ange7]

Originally posted by andyman
So you agree that those that kill should still have their human rights? You for real or another trendy wacko far left view on life?
OMG... obviously those that are guilty should be put away ... so there right to freedom is one right that they no longer should have. Where did you get "so you agree that those that kill should still have their human rights?". Honestly? or was that another argument that was going on in your head? These sad assumption of " oh your from the far left" are hopeless... if your position is sooooo solid why do you need to resort to backdoor attacks like that. Please bring an argument or this will get very boring very quickly.

[andyman]

I dont want the death pen back in the uk but longer prison terms are needed... Any miscarage of justice been done then true justice will shine... Longer prison terms! Hence the OP. Oh and lets not forget the victims of crime.

[ange7]

Originally posted by andyman
Originally posted by ange7
oh and the rights of an individual and af a citzen are NOT a far left philosophy but infact come from the right of the political spectrum so you kind of don't know what your talking about ...sorry. Hence the debate and if the law should change... Best you keep out the sun :bored:
hehe another personal attack... lol at least I remember what the sun looks like bro hehe.
Your contention that the idea of the rights of the individual are a far left philosphy is wrong. They are from the right/liberal side of politics. So even your cheap backdoor " loony left" arguement is full of holes.

[andyman]

Then you agree with me, great.. Done!:devil:

[ange7]

Originally posted by andyman
I dont want the death pen back in the uk but longer prison terms are needed... Any miscarage of justice been done then true justice will shine... Longer prison terms! Hence the OP. Oh and lets not forget the victims of crime.
point 1
Sorry but you don't get to speak for the victim of the crime. How dare you assume your speaking for them. To think you'd use their pain as some kind of armour for a poorly thought out argument is shocking.

Point 2
Why do you think longer sentences will work given that in EVERY example in the past it has failed. The US strong laws plus a 3 strikes policy for minor crimes have not worked. The gaols are full...nearly 3 million prisoners, that's 1 in every 130 yanks. You want to copy that system?... is it working?. Is there another way?

I'm saying it's a hard nut to crack but a super simple answer like " longer sentences" not only doesn't work but it spoils a possibility of a true debate on the solution. I don't think you are motivated by a possibility of finding a solution because if you were you would have brought an argument that didn't use personal attacks and that didn't try to ride the coat tails of the grief of the victims families.

[ange7]

Originally posted by andyman
Then you agree with me, great.. Done!:devil:
lol... not so fast hehe
ps got to go .. 5pm here in Sydney I'm off home.

[andyman]

erm.... I'm sure i ment long term prison for very nasty crimes, i support human rights for those that do good and victims of crime. Is it wrong to protect the public?

[Red Moon]

I understand that this is a very emotiove subject and it will generate a vivacious debate, however there is no need for the exchange of personal insults.

Please remember we have a rule about no personal insults on this site. Which basically means that you are allowed to criticize ideas but not people posting those ideas.

When writing your messages, please use the same courtesy that you would show when speaking face-to-face with someone. It's fine to disagree strongly with opinions, ideas, and facts, but always with respect for the other person.

Red

[ange7]

Originally posted by andyman
erm.... I'm sure i ment long term prison for very nasty crimes, i support human rights for those that do good and victims of crime. Is it wrong to protect the public?
No it's not wrong... we both want that. Problem is your solution has been repeatedly tried through history and failed. That's not a hidden fact...it's well known. Longer sentences don't reduce crime fullstop! Politicians raise sentences to pander to, and ingratiate themselves with, the public who's understanding of the complexities of the criminal justice system is squeezed in between Deal or no Deal and a AB master ad. And real criminal justice reformers try to spend money on re-educating/reforming inmates people complain that too much money is spent on them already.

This whole argument between the 2 halves on this thread stems from one simple point.. how we see people. Are people who commit crimes:
a: "evil" to their very core and therefore impossible to reform or
b: have they performed evil acts that deserve incarceration but are capable of being reformed and lead normal healthy lives.

Do we think people are:
a: capable of redemption, capable of change OR
b: cast in stone and unchangeable.

If you think "a" then gaol will be seen as a place to be reformed and changed.... if on the other hand you think "b" then you probably see a gaol as a place where we all as a society can take revenge. This is incredible short sighted given that at some point they will come out... unreformed.... unchanged, and angry at the world.

[ange7]

oh and for the record andyman ... I reported you. Bring an arguement instead of calling those that have an alternate opinion to yours "dumb" "sick" and "twisted".

[NettoSuperstar!]

Originally posted by andyman
erm.... I'm sure i ment long term prison for very nasty crimes, i support human rights for those that do good and victims of crime. Is it wrong to protect the public?

No Its not wrong to protect the public, but its not your decision on whos dangerous or not, or any of ours. Its the people who are educated and trained in this area. Dangerous people who have no hope of reforming dont get let out ie/ Ian Huntley (He will rot in Jail, Do I care? NO, Keep him there!). And prison is, in my eyes there to protect the public and not to vent our anger.

Here we are talking about two damaged 10 year old children who were deemed to be reformed after spending over half their young lives in custody. I will respect the decision of educated and rational people and not people who are blinded by hate!

[ange7]

yeah!! hehe

anyhow
I remember watching this last year. .. comedian Stephen Colbert.
http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/182980/may-17-2007/randy-kearse

[NettoSuperstar!]

I cant watch that vid or am I missing the joke lol? Ah i saw some on youtube funny! The truthiness according to Andycapp haha better edit this or I'll be in forrit!

...and what a charming avatar!

[Sticks]

Originally posted by andyman
So you support human rights for killers?

I am pointing out that the law can make errors, leading to the villification of innocent people.

I remember this case, and in the hunt for the killers an innocent lad was questioned, and in the end he and his family had to me moved out of Mersyside for their own safety because people assumed he was guilty, because "why would the police question him if he wasn't and he needed to be lynched as soon as possible". He is still not safe to this day, because he was interviewed and people assume he is guilty.

In this case these two other children were guilty, but by your tone you are implying that everyone arrested or questioned by the police must be guilty and therefore must be executed forthwith.

This I believe is called the "Prosecutor's fallacy"

[NettoSuperstar!]

Originally posted by andyman
Originally posted by Sticks
This was a man convicted of a savage murder, because police withheld evidence that actually proved him innocent. He was locked up for several years before this came to light. Then the police lied... So do you want to give killers the benefit of the doubt due to a chance of he/she being innocent? ..... Death row helps.

There are plenty of people who are put away on faulty scientific evidence and then later released when science catches up eg/ the women who were wrongly accused of killing their children and later scientific research proved that cot death can run in families. And death row helps how exactly?? Is it a deterrant? NO, does it make society a safer place? NO

[robb]

IMO, yes, they were released way too early. AND FALSIFYING THEIR IDENTITY on release must also have cost taxpayers a packet.

[ange7]

Originally posted by Sticks
Originally posted by andyman
So you support human rights for killers?

I am pointing out that the law can make errors, leading to the villification of innocent people.

I remember this case, and in the hunt for the killers an innocent lad was questioned, and in the end he and his family had to me moved out of Mersyside for their own safety because people assumed he was guilty, because "why would the police question him if he wasn't and he needed to be lynched as soon as possible". He is still not safe to this day, because he was interviewed and people assume he is guilty.

In this case these two other children were guilty, but by your tone you are implying that everyone arrested or questioned by the police must be guilty and therefore must be executed forthwith.

This I believe is called the "Prosecutor's fallacy"
lol ... it's andy's armour. If you disagree with him he can accuse you of being "soft on crime" or supporters of the James Bulger murderers. It's just another backdoor argument designed to short circuit any real argument into criminal justice reform.

[andyman]

Some intrest... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1095624/james-bulgers-mother-condemns-lib-dem-leader-turning-sons-murder-political-football.html

Kind of related to the topic.

[Z]

Originally posted by Angiebabe
Originally posted by GiRTh
Originally posted by Angiebabe
I would fight till my last breath for mercy for them, but fully understand and respect why socierty wished to carry out a proper and just punishment.

If it makes people any easier why not hang these when they are adults then?
or at the very least let them serve a sentance which properly compensates the life they took, surely not doing that is a travesty to the memory of the victim and there loved ones.

Yeah I'd fight hard to save my child from the death penalty but I'd die fighting to make sure justice was done if ever a child of mine became a victim of murder.
Whats really frightening (and more to the point) here is the fact mine and our children are (despite the statistics) much more likely to fall into the latter catergory ..and I dont feel comfortable feeling anyway thankul for that than falling into the former catergory. That's a very fair answer.:thumbs:

I think the severity of the crime sometimes over shadows the fact that it was committed when they were children. That is not an excuse but I feel its improtant to state when talking of the death penalty, that we're talking about a crime commited by two children. I'm for longer sentences and life should mean life but I'm not in favour of issuing the death penalty to a child.

Neither am I, in favour of serving a death sentance on a child.
I'd sever it when they had reached 18.

I was always in favour of a life sentance meaning life ( a minimum 50 years before parol would be considered)
And for the more severe crimes (mass murder, serial killers) a life sentance without parol.

However, the problem with that I have is, why waste resourses on criminals like Ian Huntley, Peter Sutcliffe, Rose West ect... when it is most unlikely they will ever be given freedom?
Would it not be in everyones interest to re-instate the death penalty and give EVERYONE the proper right and chance for justice, this time however the victims famillies too get a look in, its long overdue and its a FACT it also saves lives, as "lifers" DO kill again.

I'm just reiterating that I don't support the release of the two guys, I read your reply to my post, but I'm quoting this one :).

By deferring a death penalty until they are 18 years old, you are giving them a few years being "pampered" as you said before under a system that does very little to reform them, something else you said (I can't remember the exact quote.) Surely it would be better to just kill them straight away, instead of wasting resources on people that under your idea, you do not see the point in reforming? I can't truly understand your point of view because I'm not a parent, but I think if you're going to introduce the death penalty again, there shouldn't be an age restriction on it - it'll give psychotic kids the idea that they can commit a crime and get away with it, and not have to deal with the consequences until they are older.

My original point was that those two boys grew up in a juvenile center somewhere, completely removed from society, and were under the most intense scrutiny from the media that two 10 year old boys have ever been before in the context of a murder trial. What they did was cruel and ridiculously evil, but we, the general public, have no real idea of what their upbringing was like - I find it hard to believe that two boys could be independently deranged like that and be friends: I believe that they had family lives that caused them to be like that.

Moving away from the nature/nurture argument that can never be resolved, I'd like to underline that because they were away from what I think was a horrific home life for so long: they have reformed enough to be released from jail and given a new identity. This is not because the legal system loves them or cares for them, but because it is protecting them from the mob mentality that has been displayed here. I doubt anybody on here would feel sorry for them that they had received their comeuppance, but not everybody would be "celebrating" either. These are, after all, two human beings, and just because they did something horrible when they were young boys, doesn't mean they don't deserve the same rights as the rest of us.

[Tom]

They deserve to rot in hell and they should be locked up and stripped of human rights. Death penalty is the easy way out.

[Sticks]

Such a lot of hate here :shrug:

[Tom]

Originally posted by Sticks
Such a lot of hate here :shrug:

So we should be indifferent about two lads who tortured a boy in some horrific ways just for fun?

[Sticks]

Originally posted by Tom
So we should be indifferent about two lads who tortured a boy in some horrific ways just for fun?

But for some it seems so personal as if it was their child and they come across as getting really worked up.

This case has been reviewed by those with more information than we have.

I remember when this case was live and mob rule went into overdrive, even attacking someone who was totally innocent. I see this same hate coming through all over again.

:sad:

[andyman]

Originally posted by Sticks
Originally posted by Tom
So we should be indifferent about two lads who tortured a boy in some horrific ways just for fun?

But for some it seems so personal as if it was their child and they come across as getting really worked up.

This case has been reviewed by those with more information than we have.

I remember when this case was live and mob rule went into overdrive, even attacking someone who was totally innocent. I see this same hate coming through all over again.

:sad: Maybe people feel let down by the law, mob rule can be very ugly, never nice.

[Harry!]

No they shold be Killed im afrad. Venables and Thompson's pictures send shivers down my back. In my opinion worse than Baby P.


-------|||------- :love::love::love:
-------|||-------Please
---|||||||||||||---post this
-------|||-------in loving
-------|||-------memory of
-------|||-------James Bulger
-------|||-------Sleep Tight
-------|||-------Little buddy!
----------------- :love::love::love:

[Sam!]

They should have got given what they gave the young boy. Simple.

[Dom:D]

This is awful they shouldn't be released that is a fu**ing joke!!

[Harry!]

Apparently one of them has KIDS of their OWN! One of them is also to be rumoured to be living in Australia/New Zealand

[mizzy25]

they shud never have been let out it was disgusting wot they did to that little boy and they knew wot they were doing.

[MarkWaldorf]

Originally posted by Madonna
Apparently one of them has KIDS of their OWN! One of them is also to be rumoured to be living in Australia/New Zealand

YEAH RIGHT. The justice system here is a joke, but they would never have been granted visa's to live in another country.

[Z]

Originally posted by Markus
Originally posted by Madonna
Apparently one of them has KIDS of their OWN! One of them is also to be rumoured to be living in Australia/New Zealand

YEAH RIGHT. The justice system here is a joke, but they would never have been granted visa's to live in another country.

I've heard that before too. I don't think it's so outlandish - at least living in a foreign country there's less chance people are going to recognise them.

[MarkWaldorf]

Originally posted by Zee
Originally posted by Markus
Originally posted by Madonna
Apparently one of them has KIDS of their OWN! One of them is also to be rumoured to be living in Australia/New Zealand

YEAH RIGHT. The justice system here is a joke, but they would never have been granted visa's to live in another country.

I've heard that before too. I don't think it's so outlandish - at least living in a foreign country there's less chance people are going to recognise them.

That's true, but it'd be an extremely stupid for another country to accept them. If their identities and whereabouts got out, it'd be real bad for the country - even though it's well in the past, people wouldn't want to be living with killers. And I doubt they're still seen as threats to the public if they've been released back into it.

I don't know if I'm right with this either, but wouldn't someone released from jail (or something similar) have to stay in their home country?

[KKBL]

this is the first i've haerd of this story,and i dont know much about what happened.obviously its sick and twisted,but they were only ten!they've been in prison and baisicly everyone on the planet hates them.why should they be punished any further if they've learnt that what they did is wrong and therefore are less likely to commit any crime such as this again then all of us?couldn't any child with a bad enough upbringing end up doing something like this?

[atieah2009]

They should at least talk to the mother and be sorry and at least do thousands of hours of community service.

[atieah2009]

No they shold be Killed im afrad. Venables and Thompson's pictures send shivers down my back. In my opinion worse than Baby P.


-------|||------- :love::love::love:
-------|||-------Please
---|||||||||||||---post this
-------|||-------in loving
-------|||-------memory of
-------|||-------James Bulger
-------|||-------Sleep Tight
-------|||-------Little buddy!
----------------- :love::love::love:

:(

[atieah2009]

That's true, but it'd be an extremely stupid for another country to accept them. If their identities and whereabouts got out, it'd be real bad for the country - even though it's well in the past, people wouldn't want to be living with killers. And I doubt they're still seen as threats to the public if they've been released back into it.

I don't know if I'm right with this either, but wouldn't someone released from jail (or something similar) have to stay in their home country?

They should do a coin toss, which involves one of them dying the same way James did.