really like hira

[StevieGeire]

she may be quiet so far but to me only proves how nice she is not being an attention seeking fake so i really like her .:thumbs:

[BIG-BRO-FAN]

She really hasn't been seen on the HL's at all since she arrived so I've yet to form an opinion on her.

[BJ]

Who?

[rayheartbliss]

shes not my fave, but then again i only started having faves 2 weeks ago, so she could be alright

your right though she doesnt seem like an attention seeker
if im right, she could be another shilpa

[Zippy]

Hira who?

Has she fallen down the plughole or what?

I'd say get her out but Im not even convinced she's actually in there!

[rusticgal]

Obviously a Rachel fan.... Nice sweet but totally boring.

[Thriller]

She will make a perfect Wife

[Dolphin-and-Whale]

Pointless housemate. Why did they put her in?

[Prole]

The woman's as dull as the day's long. Every time she opens her mouth (which isn't often) she says something monumentally stupid. Last night, when she was talking to Lisa about being gay, she said "Pakistan is a little conservative". LMAO... That's like saying Israel and Palestine have had a bit of a tiff.

[StevieGeire]

Originally posted by rayheartbliss
shes not my fave, but then again i only started having faves 2 weeks ago, so she could be alright

your right though she doesnt seem like an attention seeker
if im right, she could be another shilpa

true she reminds me of shilpa both stunners,lovely people and got pure klass.:thumbs:

[BJ]

Originally posted by LethalDealer
Pointless housemate. Why did they put her in?

Carole had done it before!

[Prole]

Originally posted by StevieGeire

true she reminds me of shilpa both stunners,lovely people and got pure klass.:thumbs:

Can't agree with that. Shilpa was cool, educated, beautiful and classy. Hira's pretty, and pretty dumb.

[BBmassive]

Naaaaah :nono:

[Thriller]

Originally posted by ViaVerde
The woman's as dull as the day's long. Every time she opens her mouth (which isn't often) she says something monumentally stupid. Last night, when she was talking to Lisa about being gay, she said "Pakistan is a little conservative". LMAO... That's like saying Israel and Palestine have had a bit of a tiff.

She might get into trouble with certain groups in her home country for her comments and making friends with a Lesbian.

[BBmassive]

Originally posted by StevieGeire
Originally posted by rayheartbliss
shes not my fave, but then again i only started having faves 2 weeks ago, so she could be alright

your right though she doesnt seem like an attention seeker
if im right, she could be another shilpa

true she reminds me of shilpa both stunners,lovely people and got pure klass.:thumbs: That maybe why i dont like her ,anyone who is like the spiteful vile fake Shilpa is no good in my book :mad:

[Prole]

Originally posted by Thriller
Originally posted by ViaVerde
The woman's as dull as the day's long. Every time she opens her mouth (which isn't often) she says something monumentally stupid. Last night, when she was talking to Lisa about being gay, she said "Pakistan is a little conservative". LMAO... That's like saying Israel and Palestine have had a bit of a tiff.

She might get into trouble with certain groups in her home country for her comments and making friends with a Lesbian.

Exactly. That's not a little conservative, is it. Chipping Sodbury is a little conservative... Pakistan is largely fanatical.

[maximusuk]

The woman's as dull as the day's long. Every time she opens her mouth (which isn't often) she says something monumentally stupid. Last night, when she was talking to Lisa about being gay, she said "Pakistan is a little conservative". LMAO... That's like saying Israel and Palestine have had a bit of a tiff.


Well its true only certain parts of Pakistan are coservative mainly northern pakistan dont beieve the image of pakistan given by the media most pakistan mainly karachi , islamabad and lahore and very liberal places

[Thriller]

Originally posted by maximusuk
The woman's as dull as the day's long. Every time she opens her mouth (which isn't often) she says something monumentally stupid. Last night, when she was talking to Lisa about being gay, she said "Pakistan is a little conservative". LMAO... That's like saying Israel and Palestine have had a bit of a tiff.


Well its true only certain parts of Pakistan are coservative mainly northern pakistan dont beieve the image of pakistan given by the media most pakistan mainly karachi , islamabad and lahore and very liberal places

Yes I know Pakisthanis who are moderately liberal,very liberal I do not agree.

[maximusuk]

Originally posted by ViaVerde
Originally posted by Thriller
Originally posted by ViaVerde
The woman's as dull as the day's long. Every time she opens her mouth (which isn't often) she says something monumentally stupid. Last night, when she was talking to Lisa about being gay, she said "Pakistan is a little conservative". LMAO... That's like saying Israel and Palestine have had a bit of a tiff.

She might get into trouble with certain groups in her home country for her comments and making friends with a Lesbian.

Exactly. That's not a little conservative, is it. Chipping Sodbury is a little conservative... Pakistan is largely fanatical.

The is completely false pakistan is not a fanatical country its just how the media gives the image of pakistan being a fanatical country over 80 percent of pakistan is liberal in their way of thinking and the proof is in the last election in pakistan few years back the religious parties were rejected by most of the people of Pakistan

[Beastie]

she seems a bit pointless at the moment! but so were some of the originals who lasted more than thier fair share of weeks! and some were not even as nice as hira!

[Thriller]

Originally posted by maximusuk
Originally posted by ViaVerde
Originally posted by Thriller
Originally posted by ViaVerde
The woman's as dull as the day's long. Every time she opens her mouth (which isn't often) she says something monumentally stupid. Last night, when she was talking to Lisa about being gay, she said "Pakistan is a little conservative". LMAO... That's like saying Israel and Palestine have had a bit of a tiff.

She might get into trouble with certain groups in her home country for her comments and making friends with a Lesbian.

Exactly. That's not a little conservative, is it. Chipping Sodbury is a little conservative... Pakistan is largely fanatical.

The is completely false pakistan is not a fanatical country its just how the media gives the image of pakistan being a fanatical country over 80 percent of pakistan is liberal in their way of thinking and the proof is in the last election in pakistan few years back the religious parties were rejected by most of the people of Pakistan

I did clearly mention-certain groups -not the majority of pakisthanis-taliban type groups which are no doubt present there.

[maximusuk]

Originally posted by Thriller
Originally posted by maximusuk
Originally posted by ViaVerde
Originally posted by Thriller
Originally posted by ViaVerde
The woman's as dull as the day's long. Every time she opens her mouth (which isn't often) she says something monumentally stupid. Last night, when she was talking to Lisa about being gay, she said "Pakistan is a little conservative". LMAO... That's like saying Israel and Palestine have had a bit of a tiff.

She might get into trouble with certain groups in her home country for her comments and making friends with a Lesbian.

Exactly. That's not a little conservative, is it. Chipping Sodbury is a little conservative... Pakistan is largely fanatical.

The is completely false pakistan is not a fanatical country its just how the media gives the image of pakistan being a fanatical country over 80 percent of pakistan is liberal in their way of thinking and the proof is in the last election in pakistan few years back the religious parties were rejected by most of the people of Pakistan

I did clearly mention-certain groups -not the majority of pakisthanis-taliban type groups which are no doubt present there.



this whole taliban being in pakistan is blown out of proportion and maybe there is max 15000 to 20,000 taliban in a country like pakistan of 160 million people and even those taliban are present mainly in northen pakistan near the borders of pakistan which is next to afghanistan , and the numbers of taliban in pakistan is on a decrease eveyday since the army of pakistan is fighting them

[Prole]

Originally posted by maximusuk
Originally posted by ViaVerde
Originally posted by Thriller
Originally posted by ViaVerde
The woman's as dull as the day's long. Every time she opens her mouth (which isn't often) she says something monumentally stupid. Last night, when she was talking to Lisa about being gay, she said "Pakistan is a little conservative". LMAO... That's like saying Israel and Palestine have had a bit of a tiff.

She might get into trouble with certain groups in her home country for her comments and making friends with a Lesbian.

Exactly. That's not a little conservative, is it. Chipping Sodbury is a little conservative... Pakistan is largely fanatical.

The is completely false pakistan is not a fanatical country its just how the media gives the image of pakistan being a fanatical country over 80 percent of pakistan is liberal in their way of thinking and the proof is in the last election in pakistan few years back the religious parties were rejected by most of the people of Pakistan

I wasn't talking about the Taliban. I was laughing at the fact that Hira thinks they're a 'little conservative'. Next time you're watching the news and they show something happening in Pakistan, play 'spot the woman' then come back and tell me, with a straight face, how liberal they are there.

[maximusuk]

The is completely false pakistan is not a fanatical country its just how the media gives the image of pakistan being a fanatical country over 80 percent of pakistan is liberal in their way of thinking and the proof is in the last election in pakistan few years back the religious parties were rejected by most of the people of Pakistan [/quote]

I wasn't talking about the Taliban. I was laughing at the fact that Hira thinks they're a 'little conservative'. Next time you're watching the news and they show something happening in Pakistan, play 'spot the woman' then come back and tell me, with a straight face, how liberal they are there. [/quote]


not being funny but if you read my posts carefully you will find i have already pointed out the media gives a negative image of pakistan to the world which does in no shape or form represent the most mianly liberal pakistan

[Thriller]

Originally posted by maximusuk
Originally posted by Thriller
Originally posted by maximusuk
Originally posted by ViaVerde
Originally posted by Thriller
Originally posted by ViaVerde
The woman's as dull as the day's long. Every time she opens her mouth (which isn't often) she says something monumentally stupid. Last night, when she was talking to Lisa about being gay, she said "Pakistan is a little conservative". LMAO... That's like saying Israel and Palestine have had a bit of a tiff.

She might get into trouble with certain groups in her home country for her comments and making friends with a Lesbian.

Exactly. That's not a little conservative, is it. Chipping Sodbury is a little conservative... Pakistan is largely fanatical.



The is completely false pakistan is not a fanatical country its just how the media gives the image of pakistan being a fanatical country over 80 percent of pakistan is liberal in their way of thinking and the proof is in the last election in pakistan few years back the religious parties were rejected by most of the people of Pakistan

I did clearly mention-certain groups -not the majority of pakisthanis-taliban type groups which are no doubt present there.



this whole taliban being in pakistan is blown out of proportion and maybe there is max 15000 to 20,000 taliban in a country like pakistan of 160 million people and even those taliban are present mainly in northen pakistan near the borders of pakistan which is next to afghanistan , and the numbers of taliban in pakistan is on a decrease eveyday since the army of pakistan is fighting them

Then why does the Christian minority feel persecuted in Pakisthan.I dont think they live in the Northern area.Have you read any of the Pakisthani Christian Websites or Newspapers.Why are some Pakisthani Christians seeking asylum in Britain.Why are Pakisthani christian girls converted to Islam and taken away from their guardians and married to Muslim men.I am not blaming you but these are facts.

[flemin]

I suspect BB put her in there as eviction fodder. Infact, I think all the newbies were brought in to keep the originals in longer.

[maximusuk]

Originally posted by Thriller
Originally posted by maximusuk
Originally posted by Thriller
Originally posted by maximusuk
Originally posted by ViaVerde
Originally posted by Thriller
Originally posted by ViaVerde
The woman's as dull as the day's long. Every time she opens her mouth (which isn't often) she says something monumentally stupid. Last night, when she was talking to Lisa about being gay, she said "Pakistan is a little conservative". LMAO... That's like saying Israel and Palestine have had a bit of a tiff.

She might get into trouble with certain groups in her home country for her comments and making friends with a Lesbian.

Exactly. That's not a little conservative, is it. Chipping Sodbury is a little conservative... Pakistan is largely fanatical.



The is completely false pakistan is not a fanatical country its just how the media gives the image of pakistan being a fanatical country over 80 percent of pakistan is liberal in their way of thinking and the proof is in the last election in pakistan few years back the religious parties were rejected by most of the people of Pakistan

I did clearly mention-certain groups -not the majority of pakisthanis-taliban type groups which are no doubt present there.



this whole taliban being in pakistan is blown out of proportion and maybe there is max 15000 to 20,000 taliban in a country like pakistan of 160 million people and even those taliban are present mainly in northen pakistan near the borders of pakistan which is next to afghanistan , and the numbers of taliban in pakistan is on a decrease eveyday since the army of pakistan is fighting them

Then why does the Christian minority feel persecuted in Pakisthan.I dont think they live in the Northern area.Have you read any of the Pakisthani Christian Websites or Newspapers.Why are some Pakisthani Christians seeking asylum in Britain.Why are Pakisthani christian girls converted to Islam and taken away from their guardians and married to Muslim men.I am not blaming you but these are facts.


these facts are totally false since no one converts anyone by force and im not talking about this kind of liberal im talking about being liberal in the lifestlye most people in pakistan live !

[Prole]

Originally posted by maximusuk
The is completely false pakistan is not a fanatical country its just how the media gives the image of pakistan being a fanatical country over 80 percent of pakistan is liberal in their way of thinking and the proof is in the last election in pakistan few years back the religious parties were rejected by most of the people of Pakistan

I wasn't talking about the Taliban. I was laughing at the fact that Hira thinks they're a 'little conservative'. Next time you're watching the news and they show something happening in Pakistan, play 'spot the woman' then come back and tell me, with a straight face, how liberal they are there. [/quote]


not being funny but if you read my posts carefully you will find i have already pointed out the media gives a negative image of pakistan to the world which does in no shape or form represent the most mianly liberal pakistan [/quote]

Yeah, I do understand what you're saying and I largely agree. The media gives a distorted view of every country. It was just that she made it sound a little bit 'Home Counties' when in fact, compared to the UK, or Dublin where Hira lives, it's not exactly known for tolerance of gay issues. That's all... I wasn't culture bashing... it just seemed a like a bit of an understatement.

[maximusuk]

not being funny but if you read my posts carefully you will find i have already pointed out the media gives a negative image of pakistan to the world which does in no shape or form represent the most mianly liberal pakistan [/quote]

Yeah, I do understand what you're saying and I largely agree. The media gives a distorted view of every country. It was just that she made it sound a little bit 'Home Counties' when in fact, compared to the UK, or Dublin where Hira lives, it's not exactly known for tolerance of gay issues. That's all... I wasn't culture bashing... it just seemed a like a bit of an understatement. [/quote]

anyway hire does seem not to get much view time so i have no real view of her yet

[Thriller]

Originally posted by maximusuk
Originally posted by Thriller
Originally posted by maximusuk
Originally posted by Thriller
Originally posted by maximusuk
Originally posted by ViaVerde
Originally posted by Thriller
Originally posted by ViaVerde
The woman's as dull as the day's long. Every time she opens her mouth (which isn't often) she says something monumentally stupid. Last night, when she was talking to Lisa about being gay, she said "Pakistan is a little conservative". LMAO... That's like saying Israel and Palestine have had a bit of a tiff.

She might get into trouble with certain groups in her home country for her comments and making friends with a Lesbian.

Exactly. That's not a little conservative, is it. Chipping Sodbury is a little conservative... Pakistan is largely fanatical.



The is completely false pakistan is not a fanatical country its just how the media gives the image of pakistan being a fanatical country over 80 percent of pakistan is liberal in their way of thinking and the proof is in the last election in pakistan few years back the religious parties were rejected by most of the people of Pakistan

I did clearly mention-certain groups -not the majority of pakisthanis-taliban type groups which are no doubt present there.



this whole taliban being in pakistan is blown out of proportion and maybe there is max 15000 to 20,000 taliban in a country like pakistan of 160 million people and even those taliban are present mainly in northen pakistan near the borders of pakistan which is next to afghanistan , and the numbers of taliban in pakistan is on a decrease eveyday since the army of pakistan is fighting them

Then why does the Christian minority feel persecuted in Pakisthan.I dont think they live in the Northern area.Have you read any of the Pakisthani Christian Websites or Newspapers.Why are some Pakisthani Christians seeking asylum in Britain.Why are Pakisthani christian girls converted to Islam and taken away from their guardians and married to Muslim men.I am not blaming you but these are facts.


these facts are totally false since no one converts anyone by force and im not talking about this kind of liberal im talking about being liberal in the lifestlye most people in pakistan live !

Are you saying that the Christian minority enjoys equal rights in the constitution of Pakisthan and do you think the Pakisthani christians not telling the truth in their media

[maximusuk]

Are you saying that the Christian minority enjoys equal rights in the constitution of Pakisthan and do you think the Pakisthani christians not telling the truth in their media [/quote]


everyone in pakistan enjoys great rights and the minorites in pakistan hold powerful position in the judiciary, civil services and other government departments like i said before the media to serve its own agenda gives a bad image of pakistan to the whole world im not trying to get one over you by saying that its a fact i should know i been there so many times if you dont believe me take a trip over there go to lahore, karachi etc you will know com on you cant trust the media

[Rodrigo2Win]

Originally posted by LethalDealer
Pointless housemate. Why did they put her in?


Token Muslim.

[Thriller]

Originally posted by maximusuk
Are you saying that the Christian minority enjoys equal rights in the constitution of Pakisthan and do you think the Pakisthani christians not telling the truth in their media


everyone in pakistan enjoys great rights and the minorites in pakistan hold powerful position in the judiciary, civil services and other government departments like i said before the media to serve its own agenda gives a bad image of pakistan to the whole world im not trying to get one over you by saying that its a fact i should know i been there so many times if you dont believe me take a trip over there go to lahore, karachi etc you will know com on you cant trust the media [/quote]

I do agree I have not been to Pakisthan.I hope to one day.But as person who was born in a Christian family I have concerns for christians around the world.There are places in the subcontinent were christians are persecuted-Below I am posting a media report about Pakisthan.

PAKISTAN (A-2, 3; B-1)*
Christians in Pakistan have increasingly come under attack by Islamic fundamentalists bent on avenging the deaths of Taliban and Al-Qaeda members killed in the US War on Terrorism. Since October of 2001, 39 Christians have been killed and more than 75 have been injured in grenade attacks on churches and other Christian-run institutions. Militant Muslims in Pakistan have also been known to rape, kidnap, and forcibly marry Christian women. Christians also suffer under the Pakistani legal system, which sentences Christians to death under blasphemy law 295c. At least eight Christians are currently imprisoned under the blasphemy law, which is often abused by those with a personal grudge against the Christian.

[AhmedFan2004]

Too exciting, unpredictable and entertaining for me.

[maximusuk]

Originally posted by Thriller
Originally posted by maximusuk
Are you saying that the Christian minority enjoys equal rights in the constitution of Pakisthan and do you think the Pakisthani christians not telling the truth in their media


everyone in pakistan enjoys great rights and the minorites in pakistan hold powerful position in the judiciary, civil services and other government departments like i said before the media to serve its own agenda gives a bad image of pakistan to the whole world im not trying to get one over you by saying that its a fact i should know i been there so many times if you dont believe me take a trip over there go to lahore, karachi etc you will know com on you cant trust the media

I do agree I have not been to Pakisthan.I hope to one day.But as person who was born in a Christian family I have concerns for christians around the world.There are places in the subcontinent were christians are persecuted-Below I am posting a media report about Pakisthan.

PAKISTAN (A-2, 3; B-1)*
Christians in Pakistan have increasingly come under attack by Islamic fundamentalists bent on avenging the deaths of Taliban and Al-Qaeda members killed in the US War on Terrorism. Since October of 2001, 39 Christians have been killed and more than 75 have been injured in grenade attacks on churches and other Christian-run institutions. Militant Muslims in Pakistan have also been known to rape, kidnap, and forcibly marry Christian women. Christians also suffer under the Pakistani legal system, which sentences Christians to death under blasphemy law 295c. At least eight Christians are currently imprisoned under the blasphemy law, which is often abused by those with a personal grudge against the Christian. [/quote]

this is an lenghty answer to what you have just stated but i will try to give you a brief answer hope it answers your concerns firstly what you just wrote

(1)yes its the nutters taliban who force ppl to do stuff and i have already mentioned the taliban according to the last survey carried out were between 15,000 to 20,000 thats in a country like pakistan with a population of 160 to 170 million people and the threat of taliban in pakistan is all hyped up

(2) miscarriage of justice to some degree extists in every country and discrimnation too but the point i was making pakistan to a large extent over 80 percent is a liberal country

(3) im a christan who was born in london but of pakistan heritage and i know what im talking about since i have been to pakistan many times and i can tell you with surety that minorities in pakistan do not get treated as badly as the media and the newpapers make out it to be , further most pakistan do not accept the taliban sick version of islam Taliban is the cancer that is affecting the world and needs to be got rid off !!!!

[Thriller]

Originally posted by maximusuk
Originally posted by Thriller
Originally posted by maximusuk
Are you saying that the Christian minority enjoys equal rights in the constitution of Pakisthan and do you think the Pakisthani christians not telling the truth in their media


everyone in pakistan enjoys great rights and the minorites in pakistan hold powerful position in the judiciary, civil services and other government departments like i said before the media to serve its own agenda gives a bad image of pakistan to the whole world im not trying to get one over you by saying that its a fact i should know i been there so many times if you dont believe me take a trip over there go to lahore, karachi etc you will know com on you cant trust the media

I do agree I have not been to Pakisthan.I hope to one day.But as person who was born in a Christian family I have concerns for christians around the world.There are places in the subcontinent were christians are persecuted-Below I am posting a media report about Pakisthan.

PAKISTAN (A-2, 3; B-1)*
Christians in Pakistan have increasingly come under attack by Islamic fundamentalists bent on avenging the deaths of Taliban and Al-Qaeda members killed in the US War on Terrorism. Since October of 2001, 39 Christians have been killed and more than 75 have been injured in grenade attacks on churches and other Christian-run institutions. Militant Muslims in Pakistan have also been known to rape, kidnap, and forcibly marry Christian women. Christians also suffer under the Pakistani legal system, which sentences Christians to death under blasphemy law 295c. At least eight Christians are currently imprisoned under the blasphemy law, which is often abused by those with a personal grudge against the Christian.

this is an lenghty answer to what you have just stated but i will try to give you a brief answer hope it answers your concerns firstly what you just wrote

(1)yes its the nutters taliban who force people to do stuff and i have already mentioned the taliban according to the last survey carried out were between 15,000 to 20,000 thats in a country like pakistan with a population of 160 to 170 million people and the threat of taliban in pakistan is all hyped up

(2) miscarriage of justice to some degree extists in every country and discrimnation too but the point i was making pakistan to a large extent over 80 percent is a liberal country

(3) im a christan who was born in london but of pakistan heritage and i know what im talking about since i have been to pakistan many times and i can tell you with surety that minorities in pakistan do not get treated as badly as the media and the newpapers make out it to be , further most pakistan do not accept the taliban sick version of islam Taliban is the cancer that is affecting the world and needs to be got rid off !!!! [/quote]

Praise the Lord Brother.I do agree these problems do exist in many countries.I do have pakisthani christian friends who attend the Urudu service who are very proud of Pakisthan.You are a good ambassador for Pakisthan.

[AhmedFan2004]

Originally posted by rusticgal
Obviously a Rachel fan.... Nice sweet but totally boring.
She's not nice or sweet though, she's just thick as pig sh*t and invisible.

[maximusuk]

PAKISTAN (A-2, 3; B-1)*
Christians in Pakistan have increasingly come under attack by Islamic fundamentalists bent on avenging the deaths of Taliban and Al-Qaeda members killed in the US War on Terrorism. Since October of 2001, 39 Christians have been killed and more than 75 have been injured in grenade attacks on churches and other Christian-run institutions. Militant Muslims in Pakistan have also been known to rape, kidnap, and forcibly marry Christian women. Christians also suffer under the Pakistani legal system, which sentences Christians to death under blasphemy law 295c. At least eight Christians are currently imprisoned under the blasphemy law, which is often abused by those with a personal grudge against the Christian. [/quote]

this is an lenghty answer to what you have just stated but i will try to give you a brief answer hope it answers your concerns firstly what you just wrote

(1)yes its the nutters taliban who force people to do stuff and i have already mentioned the taliban according to the last survey carried out were between 15,000 to 20,000 thats in a country like pakistan with a population of 160 to 170 million people and the threat of taliban in pakistan is all hyped up

(2) miscarriage of justice to some degree extists in every country and discrimnation too but the point i was making pakistan to a large extent over 80 percent is a liberal country

(3) im a christan who was born in london but of pakistan heritage and i know what im talking about since i have been to pakistan many times and i can tell you with surety that minorities in pakistan do not get treated as badly as the media and the newpapers make out it to be , further most pakistan do not accept the taliban sick version of islam Taliban is the cancer that is affecting the world and needs to be got rid off !!!! [/quote]

Praise the Lord Brother.I do agree these problems do exist in many countries.I do have pakisthani christian friends who attend the Urudu service who are very proud of Pakisthan.You are a good ambassador for Pakisthan. [/quote]



Thanks im going to bed now talk tomorrow if you want night

[Jayson]

I dont like her much.

[AhmedFan2004]

Originally posted by bbfanatic
she seems a bit pointless at the moment! but so were some of the originals who lasted more than thier fair share of weeks! and some were not even as nice as hira!
I'd have to agree, when Sree was running the show the likes of Dogface and Rodrigo were even more pointless, pathetic and thick than they are now.