Well I think he did say he was checking information he'd been told didn't he, and also I think he just generally seized up on the stand. I wondered that about the license plates as well but was just relaying something I'd read elsewhere so not sure how US plates work. There is also the fact that the car had its plates removed when it was found so the theory that he was looking at it relies on him ditching the plates himself and I don't see why he would do that?

Another thing, he called in the license plate instead of radioing in. This implies he wasn't in a squad car and thus could have been off duty when it happened. Given the sensitive nature of the case and the involvement of the Manitowoc police, why was he checking plates off duty?

His lack of explanation for any of this is astonishing.

Was his off duty investigation whilst the Averys were still allowed on their property?

Kinda dangerous for him to be wandering around their 40 acre property with no squad car in the middle of nowhere with no warrant - especially when there was suspected murderers living on the property :conf:

It was two days before the car was found so the Averys would probably still have access to the property.

..I can't recall if it was said that Sherry Culhane, the state forensic examiner who messed up the test was the same person who got the DNA completely wrong in the first wrongful imprisonment case and said that a hair was Steven's, when it had been Gregory Allen's...

Culhane said DNA tests of a hair taken from the 1985 assault victim — one of the same hairs that Culhane had testified nearly two decades earlier was “consistent” with Avery’s — was in fact from another man, Gregory Allen, a dangerous sexual offender who had been on the radar of local police for years.

..I'm starting to think with the whole case that it was less conspiracy and more general incompetence...

..I've started to read some of the George Zipperer stuff and it is interesting because it would be feasible that he killed her..(shot her/thinking she was a trespasser..)...and then drove her car though the entrance near where it was found/also explaining the lack of blood everywhere at Avery's etc...and then the rest is history/type thing...the police illegally find the car when they shouldn't have been there, believed it was Avery and had to ensure his conviction/planted some DNA/the key...and also interesting that one of the things being said at the moment is that he's just torn his garage down..(where any evidence would have been..?..)...but then 10 years has passed so his garage was probably just past it's sell by date and needed replacing..:laugh:..I don't know, all of the potential suspects just all seem like dodgy characters/shifty to me, which is the problem...

..also with one of the Zipperer theories, is that the blooming dog did it, he had threatened to have his dog eat any trespasser on his land...so the dog killed her and he had to cover that up...

..Josy/Niamh..(I can't find the autopsy report online..)..have we seen that..?..


..I'm probably being dumb here but with only charred bones/teeth etc and no confession from Steven Avery, how was it known about hand and ankle cuffed/rape/torture/her throat slit ..?..which would mean no blood/dna evidence if those never happened but wouldn't mean he hadn't killed her/burned her body though...and the 'confession' from Brendon told them nothing that they weren't manipulating him to confess, so they already seemed to know these things had happened anyway but how..?..

The restraining, rape and throat (and hair) cutting are all purely from the "confession" of Brendan Dassey.

They manipulated the part about the rape because they needed to suggest a motive for Avery to have killed her. The throat cutting, purely and simply, is because they wanted Brendan to say that he saw Avery shoot her in the head and so they kept saying "What about the head, Brendan. Something about her head?" and two of his blatant GUESSES were that her throat was cut and that her hair was cut off.

So they had to write that ridiculous narrative that they cut her throat but she didn't die so they then also shot her. Because the throat cutting comment was already on tape.

The physical evidence proves two things ONLY about her death: she was shot in the head, and the body was burned. That's it.

...but didn't they 'suggest' specific things to Brendon first though, what they wanted to hear..so some pretty gruesome imaginations from those detectives...oh, yeah that'll do, she's suffered enough, we're happy with that.../I'm not being flippant, it's all pretty sick tbh...one of the things that I've been considering this whole time though, is no blood, no evidence of restraint etc and lack of forensics and how that's explained....and was Steven that 'clever' to clear everything up to the extent that some DNA had to be planted...but the likelihood is, that none of it was ever there in the first place so doesn't slant toward his possible innocence at all....

...being shot in the head, which is the only thing we know as cause of death would be more of an execution killing..?...which wouldn't be the 'profile' of this creepy/disturbed person that Steven has displayed signs of in burning the cat...

If Avery is as disturbed as he's been made out to be i wouldn't have thought a bullet to the head would be his type of style.. it's the easy/quick way to settle things. I guess if she was held alive for quite a while and Avery had got his pleasure from doing whatever he was doing & then wanted to get rid of her as quickly as possible then it could be considered.. but having her held alive for a long time would have been noticeable within the group of family members that live there.

It's just another situation where it looks more likely that someone else did do it or that shooting her in the head was the best and quickest option to kill her off if he was being set up by someone else..

...but then I keep coming back to 'most murders/murderers' are either someone close to the victim or the last person to be known to see her alive..?..and we have some possible suspects, on the Avery property or her brother or ex..?..and then we go into all of the 'conspiracies' and 'theories' with them and the things that could be seen to be shady etc...but the 'obvious' would be that Steven did kill her, it's the most logical in a way because her charred bones and her car were there and he was the last person to see her...and if it hadn't been for his 18yr wrongful conviction, would we all not be thinking that...but that's complicated it obviously because he's professed innocence again...and I do think that the police dept did illegally find her car on the property when they shouldn't have been there, so obviously there has been some covering up there, making it all look 'corrupt' and 'framed'..and they obviously manipulated some evidence as well, to try to place her in Steven's van and ensure his conviction...that's just Steven obviously, not Brendon...

Another thing that always bothered me about Theresa's ex was that he couldn't recall if he saw her in the morning, afternoon or evening on OCT 30th the day before she disappeared. This was the last time he saw a woman he had a five year relationship with, how can he not remember if it was morning or evening, yet he did remember the meeting took place in her house?

Ugh that guy really annoys me.

'I don't recall' 'I think' I believe..' like UGH TELL THE TRUTH.

When he was acting like he found it hard to recall how they found her voicemail password, I'd say it's pretty hard for an adult to forget something like that :umm2:

Well that was part of Kratz's argument that Brendan went into so much detail that it would have been hard for him to invent on the spot. He wasn't really responding to any prompts or suggestions when he gave the full account of her being restrained to the bed and Steven telling him to rape her before stabbing her. According to Brendan in his trial he got it all out of the book 'Kiss the Girls': http://www.bustle.com/articles/13344...ed-by-the-book

...yeah, the times were definitely weird also because it meant the difference between daylight and dark and how could you not recall that either...

..I've seen that movie/it's one of the Alex Cross/detective ones..I missed when Brendan said that in his trial/that it was something he read in the book....hmmm, so he was 'led by a book', he was 'led by Steven'.../both being 'led'/influenced...we know that he's vulnerable and his appearance is vulnerable as well, whereas Steven's appearance is creepy, so there isn't the same warming to him/empathies...but maybe Brendan could have raped her and with influence by the book, we didn't know of his mental health really...and then Steven could have shot Teresa to protect Brendan, an 'execution'/shot to the head..especially as he'd been through a trial and prison himself as well and burned her body, to cover it up..other members of the family could also have been involved or aware of it all, but the police dept were only interested in investigating Steven and using Brendan to help convict him, so the key was planted in Steven's van.../and any other family members only needed as eyewitnesses that Teresa was there...

..that 'theory' is based on this movie...:laugh:...

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0117381/combined


..if you don't want to know the movie end...

...just going back over Brendan's testimony again and his recounting of the day Teresa was there/which was his general routine everyday.....taking the bus to school with his older brother Blaine, who he had to share a bedroom with..had mixed lessons of mainstream and SEN, never did any school activities or seemed to socialise, taking the bus home again... while his brother went off with friends on Halloween, Brendan couldn't even play his video game while his brother was making his social arrangements on the phone and that taking priority..(all he had was TV and his vid games/that was his 'escape' world outside of lessons he probably struggled with ..)..watching his mum go off with Scott T, Steven phoning him to go help him..(even phoning again because Brendan didn't come quickly enough..).. and asking him to clean the garage floor for him...

..a school failing him, a family failing him, a mother failing him, a police and judicial system failing him..and then the picture of him at the end which was taken in prison and he was smiling, the first time that I've seen him smile ...as heart-breaking and sad as it is, maybe prison is giving him something that he's never had before in his life, maybe his vulnerabilities in there is giving him back a caring environment/nurturing/a really sad thought for someone who should never be there...:sad:...

How far along are you all in this. I've just finished episode 6 and although I've got a hunch Steve isn't going to get off, I don't for a minute feel he's guilty. How many more do I need to watch to catch up with this discussion?

I'd watch it all but after six episodes there is still plenty you can comment on.

What do you think to Steven burning a cat in his fire pit or him running a woman off the road in his car and threatening her with a gun?

What do you think to Brendans three interrogations without counsel or parents etc.

My emotional reaction, especially for the cat, is that he's a complete monster but my logical side says, what he did as a 16 years old shouldn't cloud my judgement on this murder case, especially when there appears to be so much false evidence.

Well this certainly would never happen in the UK and goes to show just how screwed up the American legal system is. Evidence was coerced out of Brendan, there's no doubt about that. Also, where the hell are the psychiatrists and psychologists? Its not unusual for people to make false statements and guilty pleas without being guilty.

The whole thing feels like a comedy of errors so far.

Many would say the cat incident goes toward a sociopathic man who's crimes escalated as he got older. Avery seems like the kind of person who could have committed a rape and murder.

Also, the timeline of Averys compensation trial and the murder always seems too good to be true. To start the depositions in October of a case that he was almost certainly gonna win then he allegedly he rapes and murders someone before the month is even over does seem an unlikely thing for anyone to do.