Originally Posted by Toy Soldier (Post 11149695)

I fundamentally disagree that those with any actual power pushing an agenda are motivated by "just bigotry" - it doesn't make sense, and to add to that, it's just never been the case. The motivation of those in power is maintaining and furthering power and using manipulative techniques to maintain control. Always has been, from the very first sparks of organised religion to any movement that exists now.

Are the likes of Trump USING bigotry as a tool to herd a passionate following? Absolutely, just as rulers and dictators have used God's and ideologies all throughout history to do the same.

They do not give the tiniest sliver of a **** about the actual issue. They do not care about their followers. They do not care what a woman is or who is or isn't trans. They don't believe in gods or messiahs.

If you can't see exactly the same tribalism and group-identity ideology being leveraged on the other side of the coin to the exact same ends then your eyes just aren't open, or your vision is being blurred by a drive towards empathy. Feeling that you MUST align with all aspects of trans rights campaigns "or else you're aligned with the likes of..." is all part of the same smoke and mirrors.

And in all honesty if you think that you don't "have to" align with ALL aspects of the campaign and ideology... I think you'll find that the vast majority of vocal trans rights activists will quickly disagree.

Originally Posted by Oliver_W (Post 11149699)

:joker:

Can't even a discussion about an invasion and possibility of impending world war not get detailed by trans stuff?

Originally Posted by glib (Post 11149704)

I can’t believe the fight against Russia is being compared to trans rights campaigners. What a joke.

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper (Post 11149700)

No issue with the first bit; I said how it's the same thing we've always seen, and I believe my opinions on that matter alone should already be well known. Of course it's "the other" that is the scary bogeymen, but it's always directed into the bigotry/fears of the people they are trying to reach. I understand why you would try and move this away from the bigots, and arrive at the general power destination, but all other oppressive movements, always come with both, and as an example, it wasn't enough that people were homophobic in the past, they had to legislate laws to criminalise it at the same time. The group - and the acts.

In fact, it's only the last two paragraphs where I believe we really differ, so let me expand on that.

Of course there is tribalism, I've never denied that. I even said that the rhetoric of pro-trans folks needed to be toned down (JK thread). Again though, we are looking at leaders and the media versus...? I'd also question the ultimate aims of the groups. One side is after acceptance and rights, the other...to scare and induce fear for personal gain.

I know that I would also be viewed as a problem, and yet I still find empathy for individuals going through heinous crap, with a ridiculous suicide/attempted suicide rate within their community. If I know I'm not getting a Christmas card from them, but yet can still be empathetic towards their struggle, then that should suggest I haven't arrived here with blurred vision.

It will always come down to humanity, and even the fact you feel as though

Originally Posted by glib (Post 11149704)

I can’t believe the fight against Russia is being compared to trans rights campaigners. What a joke.

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier (Post 11149710)

The boogeyman rhetoric is a mirror image though, unfortunately groups of people en masse don't really "do" nuance so it has to be. To someone who is genuinely anti-trans, any transperson is disingenuous and a danger. To a trans right activist, anyone with questions is complacent and a TERF. People are prone to seeing monsters in every corner, when of course the reality is that most people are neither. A big problem at the mkment though is that most people to SOME degree have questions, and there's a large section of Trans Rights Activism that views this as large scale persecution.

It gets even more complicated for me because I actually think that the genuine trans community that is the most vulnerable and at risk has been all but entirely usurped by "new gender ideology", and broad conflation of two things that actually under any scritiny have very little in common (and in fact are, in places, entirely contradictory ideologies).

I don't disagree that the current gender zeitgeist is a mental health minefield - especially for young people - but I'd be wary of putting all of that down to actual persecution. There's a lot at play. It's a hard concept to forge a reality out of and mental health problems are abundant when people struggle to define their reality. To compound that, it's a community that is often inherently attractive to young people who are already battling with mental health problems, anxiety and family issues.

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper (Post 11149716)

No rights have ever been given to a new minority group. Ever. They had to fight for them and take them, so I understand the antagonism through that prism.

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier (Post 11149721)

True but there also hasn't been a situation where the pursuit of those rights has so disproportionately affected the rights and safety of another group... let alone another group that wasn't even finished gaining them for themselves. This is the major reason that I think the conflation between trans rights and the history of gay rights/race issues etc. isn't helpful. There are clear and massive differences and the refusal to acknowledge those differences is fuelling the fire. I hear a lot of people saying, "no one will be pushed into extreme thinking if that thinking wasn't there already". Basic psychology and clear history shows that to be simply false. It might not be comfortable to acknowledge, but yes, enough frustration can make a bigot out of literally anyone, and quite easily out of most. In fact the only real defense against it is a willingness to engage in open discourse and non-judgemental questioning and self reflection. Most people don't have those skills. Those are just the facts. But beyond that you have people actively trying to discourage or outright disallow it across the board... it's a mess and one that, to me, is starting to look increasingly deliberate.

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper (Post 11149826)

Wait - I just need to clarify something. I thought the issue with trans rights wasn't the actual trans people, but rather people abusing access to these spaces to abuse/hurt women?

If that is the case, then how can you say that trans people seeking rights is a threat?

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier (Post 11149830)

This is not even vaguely complicated though? The rights being sought by trans rights activist groups (not that they might possibly seek - that they are currently seeking and in some cases have already achieved) make it easier for people with nefarious intent (or selfish intent) to access things like women's safe spaces (or women's sports/prisons/scholarship schemes intended for women etc.)

Whether that's intentional or not is entirely irrelevant, and where it's unintentional but there's a refusal to allow the work to be done to discover the extent of the risk, it becomes straight up hostile.

I will however say that the trans people or trans allies who refuse to engage or who simply don't care about the unintended outcomes are absolutely part of the issue. The harm caused doesn't need to be direct to be harm. "Wanting rights" is obviously understandable. "I want my rights no matter how it affects others so get out of the way" really is not.

The idea that trans people's mental health is somehow more important than or even close to being on a level with women's safeguarding is extremely dubious. There are other routes to supporting people's mental health. "We have to make these changes otherwise they might kill themselves" is not good mental health support in the slightest and in fact, if you bring it down to the individual level, if someone gives an "X needs to happen or else I might kill myself" ultimatum, the solution would NEVER be unquestioning compliance with the request.

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper (Post 11149841)

You're holding up positions that I don't hold, such as "trans MH over women's safety" and then knocking them down. I'm completely in favour of working through these things to find solutions. What is your actual opinion on the genuine existence of trans people? Do you think it's genuine, mass hysteria, a trend/fad? I need to know where you're coming from.

If you were given supreme power over the world, what would be your solution?

Do you think there is anything suspicious in the fact that 2 weeks ago, no one cared about women's swimming, but now a trans women, who is generally supported by her rivals, competitors, and the sport itself is the poster child of everything negative?

I agree that self ID around prisons is dangerous, but do you think trans athletes would put themselves through years of stigma, abuse, hormones etc just to get to the top of a sport? I'm asking generally because no doubt there will be a couple of individuals who would. What about trans men competing in sports? What is their motivation?

Is there any data that shows trans women annihilating all the competition, because just being born "male" obviously makes you superior, and is there any misogyny you think may also be wrapped up in that statement?


None of that is accusatory, I'm just trying to see where you're coming from and where your thinking is at.

Originally Posted by Niamh. (Post 11149850)

With all due respect Slim, you don't have to be into women's swimming to have an opinion on the unfairness of Lia Thomas a fully intact, previously ranked four hundred and something male swimmer in this sport. And this isn't just about swimming its women's sport in general and the integrity of it, it also isn't about just women's sport, its about women's rights in general.

Saying that "most of her rivals " support her is absolutely incorrect. Most of her rivals have to get their mouths shut and any that have spoken up have done so anonymously for fear of losing their sports careers. I'm surprised you are using this as something that's an injustice to transwomen rather than these women. That whole thing is outrageous in how blatantly unjust it is - and I mean towards women

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper (Post 11149852)

That's the problem though, Niamh. We've stopped talking about people, and it's been forced into the corner of sports and bathrooms, so I'm just participating in that. I was asking very specific questions to find out where TS was coming from.

On a wider point though, I don't understand why anyone oblivious to women's swimming two weeks ago, would suddenly care today. I'm using the most up to date examples so we all know what we're talking about. I'm not sure why you think I said it's an injustice to trans women.

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper (Post 11149852)

On a wider point though, I don't understand why anyone oblivious to women's swimming two weeks ago, would suddenly care today. I'm using the most up to date examples so we all know what we're talking about. I'm not sure why you think I said it's an injustice to trans women.

Originally Posted by AnnieK (Post 11149855)

To be fair Slim.....its not about swimming. As you have done, a lot of people have used Lia as an example of the unfairness....not just in swimming but in all sports. Lia has highlighted the difference between born males and born females. A mediocre born male athlete will out-perform the top level born female athletes in just about every sport. Bone mass, muscle density and hormone levels make it almost impossible for a horn female to be faster, stronger or more athletic than a born male. If born males who are not excelling in their fields can decide to switch to complete with born female counter parts there will eventually be virtually no born females at elite level.

I don't comment much on these threads as I have no interest in being called a bigot but the sports issue is a big one for female born athletes....tennis, track and field, swimming etc would be dominated by transwomen just because of their physiology

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper (Post 11149862)

I'll ask you the same question - do you think that trans athletes would go through the years of stigma, abuse, HRT etc, just to play sports?

Originally Posted by Niamh. (Post 11149854)

Can't stand Owen Jones, he's a total misogynist and gay rights never effected anyone else's rights.

Originally Posted by Oliver_W (Post 11149867)

Male people shouldn't be allowed to compete against females in sports, no matte what "ordeals" they've decided to inflict upon themselves. Whether or not they "transition" for the sole purpose of beating actual women in sport is irrelevant, they should only be competing against other males.

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper (Post 11149862)

That's the heart of my question - where is the data that shows all these trans athletes dominating all of the sports?

I'll ask you the same question - do you think that trans athletes would go through the years of stigma, abuse, HRT etc, just to play sports?


I've said I'm working things through and often the only way to do that is trying the ideas out, asking others where they're coming from, thought experiments and testing. I'm going to great lengths to engage, and yet look at the accusations I was hit with instantly.

Truly bizarre.