Of course Livia, you are correct about the Torah and the fact that God gave the Ten Commandments to Moses on Mt Sinai. But this was the Decalogue - the 10 Commandments as a whole - and there is other evidence throughout the Old testament to suggest that various (if not all) Commandments were made known by God to the Hebrews prior to Moses.

Evidence to suggest that the 1st two Commandments; "You shall have no other gods before Me” and, “You shall not make for yourself a carved image etc" were known hundreds of years before Exodus 20:3-5, can be found with the patriarch Jacob;

“Then God said to Jacob, ‘Arise, go up to Bethel and dwell there; and make an altar there to God, who appeared to you when you fled from the face of Esau your brother.’ And Jacob said to his household and to all who were with him, ‘Put away the foreign gods that are among you, purify yourselves, and change your garments. Then let us arise and go up to Bethel; and I will make an altar there to God, who answered me in the day of my distress and has been with me in the way which I have gone.’ So they gave Jacob all the foreign gods which were in their hands, and the earrings which were in their ears; and Jacob hid them under the terebinth tree which was by Shechem” (Genesis 35:1-4).

Similarly, there is evidence to suggest in Job 1:5, that Job was aware of the 3rd Commandment; “You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain” (Exodus 20:7) and Job lived before Moses at around the time of Isaac:

Job was concerned that his children might have been taking God’s name in vain, and he knew that was wrong -- “So it was, when the days of feasting had run their course, that Job would send and sanctify them [his children], and he would rise early in the morning and offer burnt offerings according to the number of them all. For Job said, ‘It may be that my sons have sinned and cursed God in their hearts.’

More evidence that Moses - if not all the people - knew of the 10 Commandments , especially the 4th Commandment; "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy." (Exodus 20:8) can be found in Exodus 16:23-28, when God gave Israel manna to eat:

“Then he [Moses] said to them, ‘This is what the LORD has said: “Tomorrow is a Sabbath rest, a holy Sabbath to the LORD.”’ … Then Moses said, ‘Eat that today, for today is a Sabbath to the LORD; today you will not find it [manna] in the field. Six days you shall gather it, but on the seventh day, the Sabbath, there will be none.’

“Now it happened that some of the people went out on the seventh day to gather, but they found none. And the LORD said to Moses, ‘How long do you refuse to keep My commandments and My laws?’ -- So even before arriving at Mount Sinai, God expected the people to obey His commandments, including the Fourth Commandment.

Some evidence to suggest that God had already made known the 6th Commandment; “You shall not murder”(Exodus 20:13) can be found in Genesis 4:6-8: where God told Cain he was to rule over and avoid sin, as anger was in Cain’s heart. “So the LORD said to Cain, ‘Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.’ Now Cain talked with Abel his brother; and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother and killed him” Cain’s anger led to the sin of murder.

Also, after the Flood, people knew that God was against murder and demanded a penalty for it. “From the hand of every man’s brother I will require the life of man. Whoever sheds man’s blood, by man his blood shall be shed. For in the image of God He made man” (Genesis 9:5-6).

The 7th Commandment “You shall not commit adultery” (Exodus 20:14) - appears to have been known and understood by Joseph in Genesis 39:7-9:
“And it came to pass after these things that his master’s wife cast longing eyes on Joseph, and she said, ‘Lie with me.’ But he refused and said to his master’s wife, ‘Look, my master does not know what is with me in the house, and he has committed all that he has to my hand. There is no one greater in this house than I, nor has he kept back anything from me but you, because you are his wife. How then can I do this great wickedness, and sin against God?’

God also had warned Abimelech, king of Gerar, not to commit adultery with Sarah. “God came to Abimelech in a dream by night, and said to him, ‘Indeed you are a dead man because of the woman whom you have taken, for she is a man’s wife’” (Genesis 20:3).

The 9th and 10th Commandments; “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor” and, “You shall not covet” (Exodus 20:16-17), have been breached ever since Eve saw and coveted the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Adam ate of it as well (Genesis 3:6), and then both of them justified their actions (verses 10-13). The result of their disobedience to God was that they were kicked out of the Garden of Eden.

Job also knew that deceit and covetousness were sins against God: “If I have walked with falsehood, or if my foot has hastened to deceit, let me be weighed on honest scales, that God may know my integrity” (Job 31:5-6). Later, in verses 9-11, Job said, “If my heart has been enticed by a woman, or if I have lurked at my neighbor’s door. … that would be wickedness; yes, it would be iniquity deserving of judgment.”

I've had to re-visit the source of this info Livia because it's a long time since I read it and the above is abridged from it, but I think it provides some evidence (some more tenuous than others) that at least some of God's laws were known prior to Mt Sinai.

As for who drafted the 10 Commandments? Well you are correct again. According to Judaism and Christianity, God did, but I posed my question in such a way because I wanted to elicit the thoughts of non-believers on the subject.

I want to encourage civilised debate on this thread because I believe (there goes that phrase again!) that this is a fascinating subject and I further believe that I can learn from other viewpoints.

Finally, you are also correct when you write:

"The utopia you describe if everyone followed the laws to the letter would be great if human beings, both religious and non-religious, could function without greed and envy and rage and lust... but sadly, we can't."

Yet, this is just further substantiation of the points I tried to make in earlier posts; that we shouldn't blame 'God' for Man's evil.

Look no further than Traffic Lights and 'Sleeping Policemen' speed bumps when it comes to examples of Man and Law:

Humans are intelligent and learned, and as such, should be capable of driving sensibly and with reason. Yet, Man has also 'Free Will' and cannot be trusted to drive sensibly, so Man has drafted laws governing driving. Still, Man chooses to ignore these laws - even though though there are consequences for transgression. So Man implements Traffic Lights and Speed Bumps to help 'countermand' these transgressions. Despite this, there are still some people who choose to ignore speed bumps and speed over them, and others who choose to ignore Red Stop Lights and 'run' them anyway.

If the speedster should lose control of the car and it ploughs into a crowd of schoolchildren waiting to cross the road, or the 'red light runner' crashes into another car killing the occupants -- Is it the law giver's fault?

No. It is purely the fault of the one who chose to ignore the law.

It is no different with God's laws - the Commandments. The laws have been handed down to Man to ensure that by adherence to them, we not only attain personal spiritual 'heaven' when we pass on, but also that we enjoy the benefits of the 'utopian' society we will have created in this physical world whilst we are living.

it, it is hardly God's fault that we are incapable of complying.:wavey:

Exodus 21:1 “These are the laws you are to set before them:
Hebrew Servants
2 “If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything. 3 If he comes alone, he is to go free alone; but if he has a wife when he comes, she is to go with him. 4 If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the woman and her children shall belong to her master, and only the man shall go free.
5 “But if the servant declares, ‘I love my master and my wife and children and do not want to go free,’ 6 then his master must take him before the judges. He shall take him to the door or the doorpost and pierce his ear with an awl. Then he will be his servant for life.

7 “If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as menservants do. 8 If she does not please the master who has selected her for himself, he must let her be redeemed. He has no right to sell her to foreigners, because he has broken faith with her. 9 If he selects her for his son, he must grant her the rights of a daughter. 10 If he marries another woman, he must not deprive the first one of her food, clothing and marital rights. 11 If he does not provide her with these three things, she is to go free, without any payment of money.
…
20 “If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, 21 but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.

Lev 25:1 The LORD said to Moses on Mount Sinai…

Lev 25:39 ” ‘If one of your countrymen becomes poor among you and sells himself to you, do not make him work as a slave. 40 He is to be treated as a hired worker or a temporary resident among you; he is to work for you until the Year of Jubilee. 41 Then he and his children are to be released, and he will go back to his own clan and to the property of his forefathers. 42 Because the Israelites are my servants, whom I brought out of Egypt, they must not be sold as slaves. 43 Do not rule over them ruthlessly, but fear your God.

44 ” ‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

47 ” ‘If an alien or a temporary resident among you becomes rich and one of your countrymen becomes poor and sells himself to the alien living among you or to a member of the alien’s clan, 48 he retains the right of redemption after he has sold himself. One of his relatives may redeem him: 49 An uncle or a cousin or any blood relative in his clan may redeem him. Or if he prospers, he may redeem himself. 50 He and his buyer are to count the time from the year he sold himself up to the Year of Jubilee. The price for his release is to be based on the rate paid to a hired man for that number of years. 51 If many years remain, he must pay for his redemption a larger share of the price paid for him. 52 If only a few years remain until the Year of Jubilee, he is to compute that and pay for his redemption accordingly. 53 He is to be treated as a man hired from year to year; you must see to it that his owner does not rule over him ruthlessly.

54 ” ‘Even if he is not redeemed in any of these ways, he and his children are to be released in the Year of Jubilee, 55 for the Israelites belong to me as servants. They are my servants, whom I brought out of Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

The bible permits slavery with direct commandments from God. The rules are somewhat complicated, with differences between Hebrews vs. gentiles and men vs. women. The verses above are not all the rules on slavery, but they are direct quotes from God if you believe the bible to be literal.

For Hebrews, slavery was a way to pay off a debt. After 6 years of work, a Hebrew slave would be set free in the year of Jubilee – as long as the slave is male. A father has the right to sell his daughter into slavery. Exodus 21:7-11 describe rules for selling a daughter as slave, but the verses seem to interchange female slavery and marriage.

Exodus 21:20-21 permit slave owners to beat their slaves so that they are unconscious for 2-3 days!

Leviticus 25:44-45 describes how gentile slaves are to be treated, which is very different from Hebrew slaves. Gentile slaves are not to be set free in the year of Jubillee but are passed from father to son as an inheritance.

There you go guys and girls. You can have slaves if you want. God wills it.

Leviticus 20:13New International Version (NIV)

13 “‘If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

“A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.” (1 Timothy 2:11-14)

Know your place women.

Genesis 3:16 - "To the woman he said, "I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.""

Yeh, that'll teach you.

Genesis 6:6-7 - "The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth—men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air—for I am grieved that I have made them.""

Stop
its a Fable Book



There Is No God

http://www.tropic-of-freedom-books.c...d-delusion.jpg

Kyle
this is the Book you need

Hi kyle, i've never read the bible and have no intention to do so, imo the book should have on it's first page "This book is fictional".

I believe the bible was made to scare humanity into submission, i have visions of shepherds sitting writing short stories on their hillsides whilst they watch over their sheep and that's it, i think i'm on the same page as you as far as the bible goes:laugh:

I Have the God delusion on audio Arista you're preaching to the wrong person here.

I've started reading the bible recently so I can really get an idea of what it's about (and also steal a few ideas for some creative writing I want to do because it is quite interesting :laugh:) and I'm currently about to go on to numbers and I'm not even gonna go into what I think of it so far because at the end of the day this is other people's faith we are talking about. Apparently Deuteronomy is where it gets particularly tasty though so I can't wait to delve into that.

Morning Kizzy, I agree totally with you.

There is a thought that we are made up of about 7 (I think) levels of understanding which are enacted on within the body. Starting from the kundilini (the lower organs) upwards we have the solar plexus, (the tummy button), the heart, the throat, the forehead, the head and according to the Kuhuna tribes there is another level which is above the head but way from it. This is supposedly our higher self, the part which enables us to unite with a higher force. It is female and male in unison, soulmates.

For us to gain a level of understanding we have to unite the lower, the middle and the upper. If we dwell on each one singularly along with another being we are in tune with that person. Thus to avoid the very basic we can uplift ourselves and then we do not attract the negativity of the other person. Gets complicated eh but I do understand what the theory is. At the same time we are protecting ourselves.

The solar plexus is an interesting one as this one is where we can tune into anothers feelings, we feel the emotion within our stomach.

Basically we are our own minute "Gods" and we can be in control of our own destiny to a certain extent. We can experience or not. When we pray the theory is that we are really praying to our highest self, the one which is outside of the body and which is in touch with the greater energy of life.

Is it worth reading Kyle?

Jules, I'd rather forget about my embarrassing part in the events that transpired yesterday so I haven't gone back through the pages but what was it you asked me to read from your blog?

For me Arista I cannot imagine a "God" making something so precious and beautiful as the earth and the positive will of mankind. A true parent would have patience and try to teach. Mind you I guess if some wont listen and they go their own way but, at the end of the day, freewill was also invented much to the distress of the negativity of the world.

Honestly hand on heart I had difficulty following it. It was read partly by him and some woman who I assumed might have been his wife and I kept falling asleep cos I would lay in bed and listen.

Someone of a greater intellect than me would get more out of it than that's for sure so on that regard I would obviously recommend it on that part just for the fact you can see a different opinion from one of the world's most prominent atheist speakers. If you got it as a book I'm sure you would negate all the problems I had (got a low attention span so I can't read books :laugh:)

Thanks Kyle.

You certainly know the Bible better than I do Kyle.

I accept that the Bible is full of inconsistencies and shocking passages, and I accept - or rather suspect - that because it is Man who 'writ down God's word' , and Man, who in the form of successive organized religions, has selectively edited the text, re-wrote great tracts of it, and destroyed other huge parts of the original vital testimony, that to blindly and literally believe the Bible in its entirety, is certainly folly.

I'm not a conventional Christian in the accepted sense of the word - I am not devout, don't go to Church, and I live as normal a life as I can.

Two of my three children do not even share my belief that Christ is the Messiah or therefore, that God exists in some form, because I have not imposed my beliefs upon them. I encouraged them to read philosophy and explore various belief systems and religions, for the same reason I impressed upon them the importance of a sound education, and they listened to me but then 'made up their own minds' about God and religion. Thank God (oops) that they also listened to me about education because all three have graduated from uni.

However, in defence of the Bible, or what remains of the original text after Man's chicanery, I would point out just a few of the increasingly more frequent examples where new archaeological discoveries are proving biblical assertions which the scientific world previously dismissed:

1. King David Inscription

Sceptics and Atheists always maintained that King David (of 'Once In Royal David's City' fame) never existed and was 'pure myth'. Until, that is July 1993 when a 'stele' fragment of basalt was unearthed by archaeologists which bore an inscription mentioning 'The House of David'. Two other discoveries cemented King David as a real historical figure with inscriptions mentioning; 'David' 'King of Israel' . These finds have been dated to the 8th or 9th Century BC and were the first non-biblical reference to a biblical figure.

2. The Baruch Bulla

A 'Bulla' is a hardened clay seal impression and hundreds have been discovered in the past 100 years or so, but one stand out bulla which appeared in 1970 contained the name and stamp of the biblical prophet Jeremiah's scribe.

Another bears the inscription "Belonging to Seraiah (ben) Neriah." and Seriah was the "chief chamberlain" in the court of King Zedekiah (Jer 51:59).

3.The Pontius Pilate Inscription

In 1961, a dedicatory stone bearing the an inscription: Tiberieum/[Pon]tius Pilatus/[Praef]ectus Iuda[eae], "Tiberius [the Roman emperor of the period]/Pontius Pilate/Prefect of Judea." was discovered during excavations in Caesarea Maritima.

Pilate was the governor of Roman Judea, under whose governance Jesus of Nazareth was crucified.

4. Ossuary of Caiaphas

In the Bible, Caiaphas is the High Priest of The Sanhedrin whom Jesus was brought before for questioning, and in 1990 a tomb was discovered in Jerusalem which contained his ossuary.

(An ossuary is a stone box containing the bones of the deceased.)

5. The Pool at Shiloh

In 2004, the pool where Jesus performed the miracle of restoring a blind man's sight (Gospel of St John) was discovered by archaeologists digging south of the Temple Mount.

As stated, these are but a few of numerous archaeological discoveries which prove the Bible as so much more than a 'fictional book' (as one on here ridiculously claims.) Among these other discoveries are what is generally agreed to be the store cities 'Ramesess' and 'Pithon' of the Biblical Exodus - Store Cities which were hitherto denounced as myth by mainstream academics.

Personally, I absorb the parts of the Bible which I am logically persuaded by, and treat the rest with a degree of scepticism knowing that the hand of Man has been involved.

I am open minded but yet, cannot forget how I was taught 'Science' and 'History' by 'academics' in Grammar School. Part of these teachings dealt with how the coelacanth was as extinct as the Do-Do, and that the native American Indians were savages.

I have my reasons for believing in Jesus as the Christ and therefore God, and it has nothing to do with blind acceptance of 'fairy tales', or 'mumbo jumbo', but entirely to do with years of extensive research and study, cold analysis of the results of that research, and logical interpretation of the evidence and facts concerning Christ.

I believe what I believe, but will not, however, ever denigrate or lambaste any other person for not believing what I do, or for even believing in nothing at all.

To close, my post on the 10 Commandments was in specific answer to Livia's perfectly legitimate and civil query in her post, and was supplemental to my 'Food For Thought' post which prompted Livia's enquiry. It was not a blind acceptance of all biblical text as being 'literally true'.

I am grateful Kyle that you are approaching this complex subject with fairness even though you hold opposing views, because through civil, intelligent debate, we may both learn something.

I understand this is a difficult topic to discuss because at the end of the day I have decided to read the bible only to pick it apart and absorb the (in my opinion) mythology surrounding it.

Personally I will always have difficulty understanding how some parts of the bible can be readily accepted and others thrown away as conjecture when it's all there in a book which the writers have given no indication of which bits are to be taken literally and which have just come from imagination. It's just so ambiguous I can completely understand how there are so many denominations which take whatever meaning they want from the scriptures and use it to further their agenda.

Some like Joseph Smith just completely add extra books and scripture on top of that and before we know it we have huge pockets of America that follow the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

To me, and certainly from what I've seen so far this is just completely jumbled up bad code which means hee haw to me and doesn't give me a clear understanding of what on earth I should be doing. That doesn't sound to me like a Very clever God but that's just my impressions so far.

Kirk and Kyle you both put forward such great communication for us to consider, thank you both. You have put forward the two sides of the coin so where does it leave us?

Kirk I appreciate you very much but my views tend to be with Kyle, it is just great that we can all chat together and appreciate each others point of view. You have both gone to great levels to present your debate.

I acknowledge Kirk certainly knows his sh*t. (Pardon my French :hehe:) We have also had very interesting discussions privately too which is absolutely fascinating.

And to clarify, I mean he knows his stuff, not that it i think it's excrement or anything like that.

I accept that the Bible is full of inconsistencies and shocking passages, and I accept - or rather suspect - that because it is Man who 'writ down God's word' , and Man, who in the form of successive organized religions, has selectively edited the text, re-wrote great tracts of it, and destroyed other huge parts of the original vital testimony, that to blindly and literally believe the Bible in its entirety, is certainly folly.

I'm not a conventional Christian in the accepted sense of the word - I am not devout, don't go to Church, and I live as normal a life as I can.

Two of my three children do not even share my belief that Christ is the Messiah or therefore, that God exists in some form, because I have not imposed my beliefs upon them. I encouraged them to read philosophy and explore various belief systems and religions, for the same reason I impressed upon them the importance of a sound education, and they listened to me but then 'made up their own minds' about God and religion. Thank God (oops) that they also listened to me about education because all three have graduated from uni.

However, in defence of the Bible, or what remains of the original text after Man's chicanery, I would point out just a few of the increasingly more frequent examples where new archaeological discoveries are proving biblical assertions which the scientific world previously dismissed:
.................................................. ......................................


To me Kirk, this is the trouble, much has been taken out especially re the more pagan side. It is said that reincarnation and karma are two of the follies, had they been left in man would possible have a different view in the Western side of life. Look how the so called witches were treated at the will of others, many people didnt even have any craft to talk about.

I believe that they (reincarnation and karma) are part and parcel of many cultures therefore giving access if so desired, to a greater understanding of the whys and wherefores. Naturally I may be totally wrong but this is what I feel at the moment.

Well done to you and your youngsters you must be very proud.

I am very interested in the archaeological findings, they do give us an insight to a past life.

Hi Kirk and Kyle, have you ever studied the life of Jesus through the Essenes?

"At the time when the Master Jesus was present among his disciples, he had already named the Master St. John as the leader of and the person responsible for this inner and secret School. It is the Master St. John who was put in charge of teaching in this School and of ensuring that the exercises were done correctly.
Thereafter, the Master St. John continued his task, even after Jesus' departure. He remained faithful and opened inner Schools in most European countries. These Schools continued to exist in secret and have propagated themselves right up to our own time, keeping Christ's teaching pure, exactly as the Essenes had kept pure Moses' secret and authentic teaching. Today, parts of this Teaching and of its techniques are being extended to the outside world because a new time of harvesting and sowing has arrived."

This is interesting and this is how I see Jesus, I believe in him as a man but he studied at the Essenes. He had great mystical knowledge for it is a place of mysticism. I believe that he was crucified because the powers that be became wary of his knowledge and his teachings, they became afraid. He talks of the christ but to me the christ is within us all. His cry of "Lord why has though forsaken me" suggests that he had gone down to his lower level of thought but then he uplifted himself and put into play all his previous knowledge and faith.

Archaeology is putting forth great things of worth, many re the Egyptians and their way of life, the pyramids, why are they there? That which we find is truth but what was its purpose. Yes places existed we cannot deny it but is it proof? To me Jesus was a great man with a purpose in life. He tried to teach mankind how to survive for their own benefit, to think for themselves, to say the answers are within. x

An interesting thought Jesus supposedly travelled to Glastonbury the hymn "and did those feet on ancient grounds" was written in honour of this. It is upheld in Glastonbury today and there is an inscription to this effect.

The only thing I would query was the travel.....how did he travel, is there any proof of this factor?

"The Essenes recognized the equality of the sexes, and accorded to women, in the greatest secrecy, the place which was rightfully theirs. Thus, women were able to participate in all of the spiritual activities.
The Essenes studied an esoteric teaching on androgyny, which provided them with a perception of the soul beyond the dualistic conception of sex. The white-linen robe was a symbol of this vision of the soul's unity".

I love this bit as women through many of the ages have been thought to be inferiour to man, even now it is so in certain places and the mind of some men.

".............It is in this state of mind, with great lucidity and a sublime love, that she consecrated her child to God at the very moment he came into the world. In this way, she accomplished the ancient rite and the secular vow of the Nazarites. Jesus was born as an Essene, and the Virgin, from that moment, deployed her will so that he would receive the education and the transmission of the spiritual laws issued by the fraternity. This is how, at the age of twelve, he was able to astonish all the priests of the temple of Jerusalem . Nevertheless, she made sure that he was educated by a dissident and non-dogmatic branch of the fraternity. In fact, there were two Essene communities: one external and official, and the other more internal and quiet. One finds the same aspect in Christianity: on one side, there is the church of St. Peter , which takes care of the external side and which is very dogmatic and rigid; and, on another side, the church of St. John , which seeks, in liberty and love, to live Christ's teaching from the inside.

This will of the Virgin to remove Jesus from the external community was very difficult to live with because that community wanted to gain possession of the child for reasons that are very easy to understand. Finally, through negotiations, the Virgin succeeded in keeping the child with her and having him educated by the dissident group. She succeeded in this thanks to the help of the angels who were with her and who protected the Master Jesus. The Essenes were sensitive to the angels and were used to obeying them.

It is the Essenes who taught the Master Jesus to eat, to walk, to speak, to read, to write, to pray, and to unite himself with the One With No Name, with the Father and the Mother of the world.

The Virgin made sure that his education would be intensive because she wanted him to be almost an adult at the age of seven before leaving with the angels. But, in fact, at the age of seven, he met his inner being, his divine source, the people of God, his angel of light who made him experience the divine world in its pure manifestation and reality.

The Virgin supported her son all the time and she believed, for many years, that he was an angel come to the earth".
.................................................. ............................

Mother Mary was supposedly born into the Essenes and as such brought her son up as part of their teachings.

Do we believe in Angels, I have to admit that I do.........

"Archangel Gabriel

Gabriel is the Archangel connected to family, birth, and the mysteries of life within the soul and relations. He is found in the sacred texts of all religions. He is the Archangel who stood beside the Virgin Mary at the birth of Jesus.

He is connected to water in the Essene tradition:
- Water in nature: water from a source, water from a lake, water that gives life and quenches the thirst of Earth and man.
- Also, water in a more subtle aspect: a subtle water that runs between all beings through relations, exchanges and communication".

Now we seem to be getting somewhere :D it seems fitting that she would want some esoteric knowledge instilled in her child, not have his head rammed full of patriarchal fear laden text doesn't it?

So she in essence took her child out of 'assembly'.

I too believe in the theory of angels, due to the reproduction of imagery across the globe thousands of years before the birth of any prophet.

[QUOTE=Kyle;7321668]

"I understand this is a difficult topic to discuss because at the end of the day I have decided to read the bible only to pick it apart and absorb the (in my opinion) mythology surrounding it."

I've no problem here Kyle - in fact I welcome it, because if you're reading, you're informed, and don't spout irrelevant bollox like some, even if you're contesting my viewpoint.

"Personally I will always have difficulty understanding how some parts of the bible can be readily accepted and others thrown away as conjecture when it's all there in a book which the writers have given no indication of which bits are to be taken literally and which have just come from imagination. It's just so ambiguous I can completely understand how there are so many denominations which take whatever meaning they want from the scriptures and use it to further their agenda."

The Bible was written by many writers over a period thought to be a thousand years. During that time, various 'ruling bodies' have edited the original text to suit their own purpose. These range from the Roman's after Constantine's conversion to Christianity in 312 AD, to the latest alterations in the 2011 New International Version of the Bible (NIV), and then there may have been much text - the meaning of which has been 'lost in translation'.

I'm not too worried about any 'selective editing' though Kyle because I believe the 'essence' to be still basically intact, it's the text which has been removed and destroyed over the years which I'm pissed about - think what might have been there.

I don't even think there are many instances in the Bible which involve imagination - just attempts by relatively primitive man to convey in his own language real experiences which fell beyond the parameters of his knowledge and vocabulary.

"Some like Joseph Smith just completely add extra books and scripture on top of that and before we know it we have huge pockets of America that follow the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints."

With no offense intended to people of Mormon and Islamic persuasion, there is no independent corroboration of the 'divine' revelations which Joseph Smith - like the 'Prophet' Mohammed - claimed. We have only their word themselves that what happened actually happened.

Smith experienced his 'visions', when completely alone - first in a secluded wood in 1820 and later - again alone - when visited by an angel he called 'Moroni' in 1823.

Mohammed experienced a vision of the archangel Gabriel, who proclaimed him a prophet of God. whilst meditating in a cave outside of Mecca completely alone.

There is a lot more evidence which casts serious doubt as to the claims of both Smith, but especially Mohammed, but that's another story.

Suffice it to say that I examined these religions (among others) a long time ago and rejected them in favour of Jesus Christ for whom there is overwhelming evidence that he lived and died on the cross and very persuasive evidence from numerous contemporary sources that he resurrected. As incredible as it may seem to 'modern man' there is also what I regard as compelling forensic evidence to substantiate Christ's resurrection, but that also is another story.

"To me, and certainly from what I've seen so far this is just completely jumbled up bad code which means hee haw to me and doesn't give me a clear understanding of what on earth I should be doing. That doesn't sound to me like a Very clever God but that's just my impressions so far."

I'm being deadly sincere now Kyle; I can't blame you for being confused. I know from years of reading (worse now since the advent of the internet) that as soon as you read one 'authority' who makes claims as being 'Gospel' and feel swayed, you read another 'authority' who debunks the first authority and makes polar opposite claims as being 'Gospel'. It takes a hell of a lot of following up, cross referencing and digesting and analysing before you can reach any sort of conclusion which you feel satisfied by - if ever.

I'm not trying to 'convert' anyone and the subject is far too complex for me to comprehensively relate even my tiny knowledge for me to try to convince.

All that I am saying is that I am a normal, ordinary Yorkshire man born to working class parents of no religious persuasion, and I do not 'leap in' to anything without satisfying myself that it makes sense to do so. I experienced a 'catalyst' which convinced me that there was more to this (otherwise futile) existence than procreating and getting pissed, and I set off in search of answers.

Keep reading Kyle, you might surprise yourself and find some answers to questions you haven't even asked out loud.:wavey:

Someone should throw a word in for Polytheists. It's funny how the debate always leads back to the concept of one God. As this that's somehow less ridiculous than there being many Gods.

[QUOTE=kirklancaster;7321944]Over the years I've read huge chunks of it too, enough to make an informed opinion that it isn't for me.
I'm sure anyone schooled here has had enough stuffed down their throats at their 'institutions of learning' to get a grasp of Christian ideology too.

'The Bible was written by many writers over a period thought to be a thousand years.' which bible are you referring to here?

[QUOTE=Kizzy;7321969][QUOTE=kirklancaster;7321944]

Over the years I've read huge chunks of it too, enough to make an informed opinion that it isn't for me.

That's your prerogative. I've never stated otherwise.

I'm sure anyone schooled here has had enough stuffed down their throats at their 'institutions of learning' to get a grasp of Christian ideology too.

Then don't subscribe to this interchange of views between Kyle and myself. For myself, I attended schools with Religious Education and Assembly, but i never had anything 'stuffed down my throat' because I wasn't interested in it so didn't think about it, let alone believed in it at the time.

'The Bible was written by many writers over a period thought to be a thousand years.' which bible are you referring to here?

I'm referring to the Christian/Judeo Bible:

[U]Christianity Stack Exchange[/U]
We don't know exactly when the books of the Bible were written, but we can, through cross-referencing external sources, determine when the historical figures in the Bible lived. Either way, the common consensus is that the writing of the books of the Bible began some time after 1500 BC, and concluded prior to 100 AD. This would be a period of about 1600 years.

Biblica

The Bible was not written in one specific year or in a single location. The Bible is a collection of writings, and the earliest ones were set down nearly 3500 years ago.The New Testament was written during a much shorter period, i.e. during the last half of the first century AD.

Got Questions Kidz

The Bible was written over about 1,500 years from 1400 BC to AD 90.

Minster Book

When was the Bible written?

It was written over a period of some 1,500 years, from around 1450 B.C. (the time of Moses) to about 100 A.D. (following the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ).

Bible Bell

As to when "pen was put to paper," the oldest book (Job) was written c. 2150 BC. The youngest book (Revelation) was written c. 90 AD.
Thus, it took about 2200 years to write the 66 books of the Bible.

Thank you for your comments.

I agree InOne, why don't you 'start the ball rolling'? It's 'leading back to the concept of one God because the only people who are currently exchanging views are discussing that subject.

As a Monotheist, I cannot entertain the notion of polytheism, but I'll willing listen (so to speak) to your views.

I don't believe in any of it but I was just noting there's never long winded debates on the internet over Polytheism. It's always Christianity or Islam. I guess though that#s cos they shout the loudest.

I'm fascinated by your posts on this Jules. I'm familiar with some long-standing theories that Jesus was an Essene, but nothing which has had the wealth of detail in your posts. What is your source?

No problem InOne, though it may be because Polytheists are either thin on the ground, disinterested in airing their views, or both.

Possibly. But the harder Monotheists try they don't seem to get any closer to proving there's a God at all.

Yep - it all comes down to Faith in the end.

All that "rule of three" and "hearth and home" stuff isn't anything to do with real Paganism and everything to do with modern Wicca which as we know has been made up in bits and pieces over the last hundred years or so with bits borrowed from other more ancient religions, Celtic, Norse etc.. And no, there is no "bible" for Pagans because the religion was virtually wiped out by the Catholics about four hundred years ago. Same goes for Druidism. There are lots of books, lots of papers... but they're all safely tucked away in the Vatican. There is dark and light in everything, people are good and bad... don't imagine for a minute that people who think they're witches are all good and positive.

If you read the story of how the Ten Commandments came to be you wouldn't have to ask why I think there was disorder before then, but the laws were applicable to the Jews at that time.

Human beings can't exist without laws. It isn't laws that make people bad, it's their nature. As for laws being made just to manipulate the masses, that's a comment that could only come from someone living in a country where law and order is taken completely for granted.