But then I don't agree with keeping quiet because it doesn't conform to politeness. Suicide is a tragic thing to experience for both the person committing the act and those left behind.

I don't think it's something that has to be hushed and not discussed when it affects so many people just because it's impolite.

Selfish means to carry out actions for the good of ones self without thinking or caring about the consequences of others. So it is still the wrong word to use. How do we know that he hadn't put a lot of thought into his decision (I'm guessing he must have) and considered that he may have been a burden to his wife and others around him by being so depressed, which in turn could have left him feeling more depressed and taking his life would cease the burden he thought he may have been on people.

Yeah I agree. I could see good points and bad points in everyone's opinions though. And like I said, I think everyone reacts to it differently so you can't have a right or wrong.

Did you even read my post? I said that selfish isn't the right word.

It was more for the benefit of those using the word selfish. I was just expanding what you had written. :tongue:

I still don't like the word 'selfish' in this case..self preservation perhaps, I'm not sure. A loving father has a 'function' a 'purpose and role' to protect his children and his wife....some would say they would die for them..literally. This guy must have felt such a deep disappointment and dispair that he was unable to protect his son from the bullies..he was unable to prevent him from ending his life...perhaps, in his own feelings of failure he felt he was unable to help his wife in any way..maybe he just felt he made things worse.

I still believe this is not black and white and labels should not be attatched..if it where, then I would have to believe that the boy was selfish too...and I can't...he probably just couldn't find any other way out of his suffering and misery...grief and depression are all consuming for some

Yes, let's blame everyone else.

I will use the word selfish if I want, because that's my view: that the ACT, his final decision was selfish imo. So I would personally say 'selfish' is the correct word to use to describe his final actions.

Do that all you want, but selfish is not the correct word to use still.

Why does it beggar belief that anyone woudl voice it.

I'm an adult Shaun, like you and others on here discussing this. I dont' believe in hiding things under the carpet.

As I said earlier: people on here seem to be showing far more understanding and empathy toward the man who is dead - than the woman who is left having to try to deal with this.

No one's name is being sullied - some us are saying that it was a selfish act. We're hardly tarnishing the man, given that it is a personal opinoin on the act of suicide.

I'll say one thing here. You are being completely and utterly out of order with that comment. How dare you infer that people are being untruthful about their own personal situations.

In my view it is. You don't make the rules up on life UKTurtle. You aren't in the position to tell others what they wish to feel and whether they are wrong to feel such a way.

I wouldn't like to judge his situation but his wife is left to carry everything on her own and that's not right no matter how tough it is/was for him. This issue hasn't really been addressed by those defending his suicide, imo.

Maybe it's a minor point, but he's not really done his anti-bullying campaign any favours either. To me hes sending out a message that bullies win :conf2:

No, but I also understand the meaning of simple words Pyramid. The meaning of selfish does not fit here. I have already provided the meaning of selfish, and trust me, you do think about others before you do it and what you are doing to them whilst you are alive. You may not consider the long-term affect on them and you may see that you are relieving them of a burden by having to deal with you, hence you are considering others. In such a state of depression your thought process is not clear or concise.

You first part Fruitcake: believe me, I've tried to get others to focus on the wife and to not disassociate the impact on her: but seems that's not up for real consideration, and I agree with you - it doesnt' seem to focus much in taking into account the bigger picture. There is far more to suicide that just the person who chose that way out.

There is the view that the horrible thing is, it does seem the bullies won - hope they are all very happy with themselves.

I understand the meaning quite clearly of simple words, and I dont' need to be patronised by you either. I'll quote your own words:
You have no idea what went through the man's mind - whether he considered he may have been a burden to his wife or not: so let's stop pretending you know more about it than you do. NONE of us, including you, will ever know the answer to that.

It is my view that those who opt for suicide do not care about the consequences or the aftermath. That is my opinion and to be pefectly honest with you, given your mod status: I'm astounded that you are taking such a stance that I cannot have my own view without you telling me my view is wrong. Whatever happened to accepting and respecting someone else's opinions.

I'm very well aware of how depression affect, that's something else you don't have to break down to explain to me.

You seem to have blinkers on in that you feel that your view and your terminology used is only the correct one, any other is incorrect. On that, you are very wrong. We simply disagree on opposite views that we have.

I can completely see what you're saying Pyramid. It seems to me a lot are so lost in sympathy for the father that they can't see the people who are still left, still alone and still in need of help and sympathy.

On top of what she has already suffered, losing a child and now a husband, she presumably now has to arrange a funeral, inform the families and it wouldn't be unusual that she were put under scrutiny and questioned by anxious relatives and friend about his decision to take his own life.

What's more, as you quite rightly say, the bullies are probably quite happy with themselves now. She has to face them alone, with no support, knowing that they have destroyed her life and her family.

I do have sympathy for the father, but I don't agree with his decision to take his own life. I think maybe I'd describe it as a 'self-centred' rather than a 'selfish' act, as selfish implies to me that he has gone through some sort of conscious thought process when deciding to commit suicide.

My mod status has nothing to do with having a debate so stop trying to bring that into this.

I have no blinkers on at all. I do feel for the wife, as stated in my very first post in the thread, but to call this man's actions selfish is wrong. Like I have said, selfish means you do not think about others at all, only about yourself.

And when it comes to respecting people's opinions you are a fine one to comment on that. But that is for another time. But yes, I do believe that you and others who use the word 'selfish' in this context are wrong. That is my opinion. If you do not like it, tough. It isn't me being rude, it isn't me abusing my mod powers, it is my opinion, just like you have your set opinion that using that word is right.

It's not often I will take such a firm stance with an opinion, but on this one I do.

In my personal opinion, suicide is a desperate act by someone who is in excrutiating pain and the human response to pain is to want it to stop.
In the literal sense, that can be described as selfish..as the entire focus is on one's self. In the same way that there needs to be more help and awareness about bullying, I think there should also be more support for sufferers of depression...I believe it was this father's third suicide attempt, he had undergone psychiatric treatment, had spearheaded an anti bullying campaign...he had obviously made attempts to stop the pain. I can only assume that he felt unsuccessful in this.

I'm most certainly being far more respectful towards others on this thread are being: therefore your comment to me personally if not only unecessary, it's almost baiting - it has absolutely not one thing to do with this debate. Not a thing.

Regardless: you are a moderator, that is factual and in posting, for you to be taking the stance of telling others that the view they personally hold is wrong - is not upholding the rules that we are all asked to follow - be respectful of others opinions, argue them but accept them. You might not agree, but that does not make you right, and them wrong.

One persons opinion doesn't make another persons opinion wrong: which is what you have stated to me several times. Add to that, the way in which you have attempted to belittle another fm, by caustically telling them that you 'understand the meaning of simple words'. There is no need for that at all.

Hardly the way forward for good and healthy debate.

Like I said I believe you and others who use the word selfish are wrong. But bringing in my mod status has nothing to do with this, it just looks like a cheap shot to try and back up your opinions. And belittling FM's constantly? No, once AND ONLY ONCE did I say that I understand the meaning of simple words and that was in response to you saying that I don't make up the rules of life. You are right I don't, but the meaning of words I do understand and selfish does not fit this man's actions.

And in respecting people's opinions, I am. Not once have I insulted anyone for the opinion they hold, nor have I tried to bring in irrelevant points to try and 'outdo' them. I feel they are wrong and I have stated my opinion on a sensitive subject, if you do not like that then I'm afraid that is tough.

I am not arguing with you on this any more as I have nothing else to say. But feel free to respond back like you always do.

But couldn't the word selfish be used on both sides of the argument? Maybe he did think he was a burden and the release for the him and his family was suicide. But on the flip side he wasn't thinking about the hurt he would cause to his wife as Pyramid has pointed already struggled to adjust to the fact her son killed herself, to now have to go through that again and even more so, on her own?

I don't think it's fair to say someone's opinion is wrong just because you don't agree with it Ben.

My opinion is that those who use that word are wrong. It's no less fair than people calling this man selfish. I respect people's opinions if they choose to use that word, but to me it is wrong.

I didn't say you were belittling FMs constantly, I have no idea why you are makign an issue out of that with capital letters. (Actually I do, you didn't read correctly what I wrote). . Neither did I infer you have insulted anyone for their opinion. I respectfully suggest you re-read what I actually wrote and not what you think I wrote, or what you believe you read in the words I used.

You are wrong to assume your opinion is the correct one. Yo may believe it is:- which is understandable since it is subjective but that is not to say that yours is the only view to be had.

I will respond as I see fit - it is a public thread for all to participate in and I shall continue to do so, so I'm pretty sure I don't need to be told I'm free to respond back. That would be my choice to do so.

Ben. Surely you can understand the act of suicide is wrong?

I never said suicide was right. I just said it wasn't selfish. There is a huge difference.