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Originally Posted by Jack_
(Post 9857146)
I don't really know where else to put this, and don't think it warrants its own thread - but I watched this the other night after it was shared onto my social media feed, and I think there's some really interesting reflections on (toxic) masculinity, intersectionality, anti-feminism, white nationalism, and the rise Trump - among others.
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I managed to get through it and it seems like a fairly genre view of gender relations in society. Maybe this is not supposed to be rigorous, and I gathered that, but I feel like compared to what I’ve even read, heard and seen on women’s studies, this was a little bit thin on supporting it's premise...
He seems to be able to "emote" his points well and seems quite analytical at other points, but his interpretations of gender traits and his description of how this supports his interpretation of toxic masculinity is a little thin on detail and very analog in supporting his premise. The way I interpreted it is he was saying, “Well, society has these issues and it's occurring between these groups disproportionately” ... ok... but he doesn't seem to be looking at the other side of the coin, of how his view of masculinity (which we don't apparently share) has played a role in shaping society in a positive manner (to all the same groups benefit). So it seems like a bit of a paradox, almost religious at some segments... an us versus them perspective, evil versus good, sort of view if you will. We have to convince men to “be our allies”, etc. Which means he apparently thinks they’re the enemy…
What he does a lot of in his speech is trying to latch onto what the viewer is feeling about their position in society. For example, if you’re a woman and you have yourself been taught you’ve lost in the genetic lottery, then you’re going to feel like his points speak to you and how you
feel about your placement in society. This doesn’t necessarily validate his argument(s) or yours and I’s experience.
The interviewer describes his views at sections as “inspiring” and “powerful”, which also clues us in right away this isn’t even a debate, but a call to arms for our empathy.
So the woman asks at about 9:15--I'll transcribe...
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“@And out of that group of men that sort of have—the men that have been centered in our society so far—come a lot of men that we would say are somehow problematic and are creating social problems. So you have studied amongst them, militia men, mass shooters, anti-feminist men, domestic terrorists… and in your new book, nazi’s and white supremacists. These are men who perhaps come out of your interest that your activism and your pedagogy is in line with your research. Today we describe them, even in popular culture, as toxic men. Men who are embodying a toxic masculinity. And that’s what I’ve been asked to sorta focus on for our talk today…
So can you first like—define masculinity for me—and talk about a little bit about the difference between masculinity and being a person with a male body… and then reflect on that idea of toxic masculinity?”
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“@Let me go back to the preface, the predicate of your question, um yes… I have focused on a lot of guys who are angry and complain a lot about masculinity. And the ones that think they’re not empowered—that they’re not privileged… and I do this for political reason… because we in the Gender Studies world—feminist studies world—come out of talking about um—masculinity as being powerful. And um-I think… I think that’s not men’s experience of this… and I think this is an interesting an important sort of entry point into this conversation… so like feminism basically offered women a symmetry between the social and the individual. The social observation was women as a group are not in power. And individually, women didn’t feel powerful. So feminism basically said let’s address both of those, the individual powerlessness and the social powerlessness. When you apply that same syllogism to men—men are in power—(everyone agrees)—but when you say, therefore men must feel powerful… they look at you cross-eyed, I don’t have any power, my wife bosses me around, my kids boss me around, my boss bosses me around. Now what happened as a result of that, so-so, with women have a kind of symmetry, with men you have asymmetry… no all of the power has not trickled down to individual men feeling powerful.”
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I mean that’s a lot to unpack. The interviewer did a terrible job of stopping him at several points in the middle of his monologues to see where this was going and how this exactly supports his premise of toxic masculinity?... it seemed like a very confusing answer and he failed to describe what masculinity even is (in his definition).
Also, “Women don’t feel powerful”. Those aren’t just generalities, he’s claiming to know how all women feel. Does it make this the rule? There used to be a blockage on women's rights, but in 2018, can we really say the same is true? Do they have all the power and can they exercise control over the group? Of course not. But this wasn’t the purpose of suffrage or feminism.
It seems like he's arguing that there’s a big black hole underneath our feet sucking away at the foundation of women-hood to keep us in place. It’s big, it’s treacherous and oh it’s there… and you would feel it there if we just
paid attention. Can we see how this is a problematic way to make any argument?
Personally speaking, I do think that men do tend to do a better relationship with the idea and word “power”, especially personal empowerment. Women, do tend to have more issues with personal power. It’s more common for women, but not necessarily the rule. Is this because of –grrr—evil socially constructed masculinity – or -- is this because of socially constructed femininity?
I'd argue--anecdotal of course--that I know more men (especially white men) that feel lost, disillusioned and disconnected from their personal power than I do women who feel lost and these things. The common link seems to be that these men are told they must be more feminine, must be more empathetic, must suppress their inner drive and not be aggressive...
I'd argue that a good case study should be done to examine the benefits of masculinity in women, but that it doesn't even have to be that. If women are being signaled in popular media that she is not in power, that she should be thin as a straw and etc in order to feel powerful... then someone out there will believe it. Just the same, they will also believe they are a victim if told enough... so our feelings are not a good indicator of what we need to do to tackle these divisions.
On the same token, what effect does popular culture have on men? I think this interview is very dis-compassionate (
thanks identity politics). I'll give it to him that he's admitted that he helps to perpetuate these stereotypes against men for political reasons, but can anyone but me see the problems with this? He's using the same tools the other side would use while arguing against them.
