Valid points. :thumbs:

Whatever uplifts and enables someone to go on in a positive vein eh! I agree smudgie.

Great post Kirk, there is always two sides to every coin this is why it is great to have an ever open mind.

Re the ego thing, for myself I do not have any as I respect everyones point of view. On the other hand I have been to a couple of churches, the Spiritualist being one of them. Because of their supposed qualities I thought they could teach me something but I soon realised that as some thought they had a gift, they expected their word to be the truth. Their egos were so great that they did not like being challenged. There was a great division at that time, my mind was with both but I was told I had to come down off of the fence and go on one side or the other. To me that wasnt at all spiritual so I left.

Many mediums are great but others do not seem to realise that they still have very far to go, there is still far more to perceive even at their misrepresented level of understanding.

It's not a great post at all, he provided no evidence at all against my points, he used the usual religious excuse "well you can't prove i'm wrong, so maybe you are wrong too!" he just repeated the same conspiracist "i'm smarter than everyone else, because i'm not a sheep" crap you can read every day on blog like AboveTopSecret and al the other dumb conspiracy websites, funny enough those conspiracy people have a lot in common with Religious nuts like followers of pat robertson and jerry fallwell, even though they claim to be polar opposites.

Do you believe in Unicorns or Minotaurs? if not, why not prove to me that a giant Minotaur doesn't control the planet. How do religious people not realize how stupid they sound?

The problem with people like him is he's too proud and/or dumb to just say "i don't know". The difference is, atheists freely say "i don't know" when they don't. but religious people say "I know the truth, and you are a jerk for asking me to tell you why, why should i have to explain it?".

it's enfuriating/. and deadly for many people./ especially gay people/.

As far as your last point Kirk, if it did turn out there was a GOD, and i found out that he was putting us through all this torture and suffering, i would try to ****ing kill that ****ing ASSHOLE. If there is a God then he is evil for what he has done to humanity.

I would never ask forgiveness from God, i would DEMAND that God beg ME for forgiveness. for all that he's done to me and the people i love, and to the entire human race.

If there is a God, shame on him.

I think the reasonable answer to this question is, everyone has their own ideals on what brings meaning to life, their life specifically.

Some may think God and religion is what brings ultimate meaning to a persons life and they'll devote themselves to following his every word and follow the words of the bible and that's okay.

Some people might think that being green and loving the planet to try and preserve natures beauty for future generations brings ultimate meaning to their life and that's okay.

Some people might think that money and success will bring them complete joy and make their lives happier and much easier, so they strive to gain all of their personal goals in order to reap the rewards and feel fulfilled, that's okay too.

Some people think that living a free life away from the stress of the modern day society is the way forward, being free from worry, free from the burden that today's world throws upon people on an everyday basis, just having to survive, with only love and hope to carry them through, that's more than okay if that's what suits those people.

I don't think there's any place for judging or criticising people's beliefs and their personal infrastructure, we are all different, we all see different things in the world, we all see beauty and meaning in different things, but at the end of the day, we're all the same, at the core of every being there is a longing for acceptance and love and ultimately happiness, whichever way people seem fit to seek happiness, as long as it's legal and it doesn't hurt or harm anyone, there's nothing wrong with it, everyone's life meaning is equal and just as important in the world as everyone else's.

Me? well i strive for the day when i can turn around and say that I have made my parents proud, that i've made myself proud, that I've become the best person i could possibly be, money and success mean nothing to me, the love of my family and friends is what drives me and that's what gives my life meaning because as long as i have that, then I'll always be happy.

Tbh Lostalex, I do believe that we do not have to be sheep, we have to think for ourselves and keep our minds open at all times. There is nothing that we can really prove for everyone. The things which I think today may, in a few years time, be proven to be wrong. I wont feel blue though as my mind is never closed.

There are so many thoughts about everything that I do not see the connection between "can you prove blah blah blah" as being a religious aspect. To me it is fact, I say this you say that, can you prove what you say, I cant tbh because they are my experiences which I will not deny. I say I am not religious but I find comfort in a lot of things which are connected to religion, ie I love hymns (not hers :dance: psst nothing wrong in loving hers :dance:).

Re Minatours and alike, for me I have to remember that all words are man made but I do not know and cannot prove whether a great being is in control. If so that being is energy something which we can all tap into to find a better understanding of life and purpose.

If life was diminshed and begun again, if a man was found upon a beach and he discovered a beano or a fairytale book, would he believe that that was the "bible" of sorts. The answer is we really do not know so for me we have to flip the coin for all/everything to be considered. :wavey:

I thnk we are finding out. because now that more and more children are raised without religion we also see that the next generations believe in it less, and religion is dying. because no one is born believing in god, it really is just brainwashing. The entire concept of God is just brainwashing by the churches that want to hold power over the people. Also we can see that the more educated people are in actual science and facts, the less likely they are to believe in God. and the opposite is also true, the less educated and less intelligent people are MORE likely to believe in God. Why does God choose the dumb people to believe in him? again, God sounds like an asshole.

That is a lovely post Liam you will always have love and that is such an important element to our being. :wavey:

I don't have a problem with people believing stupid things, along as they don't try to take MY rights away in the name of their crazy beliefs. If you wanna sit around worshipping God all day, praying five times a day in a certain direction, starving yourself on certain holidays, FINE, along as you don't try to take anyone else's rights away that's fine.

It's when religious people try to put it in their work, or their schools, or their governments, that's when I have a problem. Unfortunately, all the major religions seem to be obsessed with POLITICS!

My parents always made me go to Sunday School but they never went themselves :laugh: I think it was more to get my brother and I out of the way :laugh:

I have never pushed religion or my beliefs down my children and grandchildrens throats but have often asked what they believe in. Surprisingly enough they have good ethics. Just talking and explaining to them over the years are well within the reach of parents and grandparents. Their own life experiences give them an understanding that if they touch a hotplate, it burns.

Nobody is dumb though if they believe in God it is their way in life. Whilst things maybe changing now, there are many old school who will still be dogmatic about the whys and wherefores of their beliefs. So long as they make allowances for all then it is truly fine. :wavey:

I agree that there is nothing wrong with parents or grandparents sharing their beliefs with their children/grandchildren as long as it's an open dialogue, and not just a lecture. Do you encourage your children/grandchildren to question things and make up their own minds though? or did you intentionally try to influence them by giving or withholding love? Most parents/grandparents reward children when they agree or withhold love and affection when they challenge or disagree. It's a very passive aggressive way of forming their beliefs, especially while they are young.

It is hard Lostalex when we are going through our own trials, we can questions things as to why it is happening. To me this is why I do not believe in a god, I feel it is ok for me not to believe but I do believe in faith. Faith that we will have the courage to see ourselves through without suffering to much turmoil.

In my book we do have the answers within for our own survival. With my own troubles I used to sit down and write everything in a book, I could say what I wanted, I could get the anger out of myself, I uplifted myself as I suddenly realised that there was a healing power which was within me. I accepted it and have never looked back. It is a power for sharing.

I really do not know where you draw the above conclusions you do Alex based on your original post and my response to your original post - there really is no basis for such conclusions, they are delusional and misleading.

You did not post 'contentions' requiring 'evidence' in a response, merely your 'point of view' , so I responded civilly and quite reasonably with a counter point of view. This being so, before I respond to this post, I'd like to analyse just what you originally posted, and just what my response to that original posting was -- after which, I defy any sane, impartial reader to concur with your illogical rant above:

Firstly, you posted:

Original Post : "People always want to find "meaning" in everything. like the people that obsess about the beatles or Led zeplin, they play the records backwards and hear hidden messages."

My Response To Your Original Post: "I think that you omitted the word; 'Some' from the beginning of your first statement. Some people do always want to find "meaning" in everything. There are those who search for hidden messages in the lyrics of Helter Skelter from the Beatle's White Album, as there are those who 'suffer' from 'Pareidolia' and discern faces in clouds and trees etc.

Then there some others - myself included - who are essentially metaphysicists (in the true sense) and who seek answers to the genuine mysteries of life. We are not 'nutcases', delusional, and not given to 'blind' acceptance of dogma - from any source, nor do we exclude 'science' from the questions or answers."

Original Post: "Humans for some reason can't understand the concept of nothingness, of chaos, of just believing what you see."

My Response To Your Original Post:]"In part, you are absolutely correct here - at least as far as I am concerned - because I cannot accept the concept of nothingness, which is, after all, just another 'theory' -- as is 'Chaos', 'The Big Bang', String', and every other 'scientific proposition. I will ask again the following:

If life is 'accidental' - where did at all begin?
If there was nothing who introduced the something ?
If there was already something, who put the something there in the first place ?
If there is no meaning to life, and no after life, then we are no different to other animals.

If that is so, then where did our moral code come from?"


Original Post: "There must be order behind it, there must be something deeper, a secret. And people are rewarded when they think they have discovered something secret, it makes them feel superior to all the other "sheep", it makes them feel special and smart. It's pure ego."

My Response To Your Original Post: Some of the greatest scientific minds who ever lived - and still live - believe(d) in order behind the most seemingly random realities in life.

As for 'feeling superior/special/smart; the polar opposite is true. Any sane, rational man who does seek answers in a metaphysical sense, realises - before he has even set forth on his quest to try to find answers - just how insignificant Man really is in the 'grand scheme of things'. He is instantly humbled by the enormity of that quest.

Original Post: "What if it really is all just a Clusterfvc|k? could you handle that reality?"


My Response To Your Original Post: Yes, but the actual odds of being able to procure answers to the 'meaning of life' are so utterly overwhelming, that when all the most exhaustive scientific and philosophical searching is ended, I seriously doubt that Man will ever be left with anything other than a simple choice between 'Faith' and 'Atheism'.

I think you may as well reverse the question and ask: "What if it really is one day proved that there is a God and a higher purpose to life? Could you Atheists handle that reality? .

Analysing the above -- Just how did you drawn the conclusions you have in this post? How can you justify what you contend?

"It's not a great post at all, he provided no evidence at all against my points, he used the usual religious excuse "well you can't prove i'm wrong, so maybe you are wrong too!"

The above claims are just not valid because I never stated those words or even intimated them, and have answered this in my last post.

"he just repeated the same conspiracist "i'm smarter than everyone else, because i'm not a sheep" crap you can read every day on blog like AboveTopSecret and al the other dumb conspiracy websites, funny enough those conspiracy people have a lot in common with Religious nuts like followers of pat robertson and jerry fallwell, even though they claim to be polar opposites."

Again Alex; I never stated those words or even intimated them, and nowhere in my response to your post do I allude to 'conspiracist' theories or the websites for such, and I do not regard myself as "smarter than everyone else" nor have I stated as much or intimated as much. In fact, in other posts on this thread I have stated how complex a subject this is and how there are internet articles and books on the subject written by far more intelligent and knowledgeable minds than mine.

That said, I am educated and intelligent and articulate, so I am not going to deliberately write in pidgin English and to the standard of an illiterate ignoramus simply to prevent people from wrongly attacking me for being a 'clever clogs'. Lastly, I'm neither a 'conspiracy' person, or a 'religious nut', and I've never heard of 'pat robertson' or 'jerry fallwell'.

"Do you believe in Unicorns or Minotaurs? if not, why not prove to me that a giant Minotaur doesn't control the planet."

Well actually, no I don't believe in 'Unicorns' or 'Minotaurs', but I do believe that these mythological creatures - like all myths - have a basis in historical reality. However, my non belief in these creatures renders a response to your challenge redundant.

"How do religious people not realize how stupid they sound?"

'Religious people' is such a sweeping term and this sentence is far too generic and cryptic for me to address. Which particular 'religious people Alex? and just what have these 'religious people' specifically said which 'sounds so stupid'?

"The problem with people like him is he's too proud and/or dumb to just say "i don't know". The difference is, atheists freely say "i don't know" when they don't. but religious people say "I know the truth, and you are a jerk for asking me to tell you why, why should i have to explain it?"."

I'll ignore the personal insult from you. I'm neither 'too proud' nor 'too dumb' to just say "i don't know"- as a search through my posts on this thread will attest, because I never state anything I believe as fact, but always state it as a 'belief'. What's more, where I have been asked a question which I don't have an answer to, I simply state that "I don't know". Look at my responses to LeatherTrumpet and Kyle among others and you'll see the truth of this. Further; I have never shirked from answering any questions in civil posts so I do not know - again - why you make this claim in a post about me.

However, I am amused by the irony in your erroneous claim because, any honest, impartial reader who compares my posts on this thread with yours, cannot deduce anything other than the fact that it is you Alex who act as if your opinions are facts and you who state the scientific theories which you espouse as absolutes.

"it's enfuriating/. and deadly for many people./ especially gay people/."

I simply do not know what you mean by this, and cannot see where it fits into the context of the rest of your post.

My regards Alex anyway.

i think the meaning of life is this thread

I understand your anger at 'God' Alex, I really do. It's the age old question of why a supposedly loving, caring, creator God will stand back and allow terrible things to happen to an individual or humans in general. The answer is that I do not know Alex - I have cursed God myself in the past through my grief and asked him the same question.

The same question is posed throughout the Bible as well but i can't remember where or what the responses were.

Brilliantly written Liam and really balanced.

I agree.

Brilliant Ammi.

Food for thought #1. -- I welcome all responses.

In the Hebrew Bible, there are numerous instances of the 10 Commandments being in existence long before God handed them down to Moses on Mount Sinai, as recorded in Exodus.

But, to prevent argument, let's take God and 'religion' out of the equation - for the moment at least - other than for quotation purposes.

I maintain that whoever drafted the 10 Commandments was no ordinary Man, but some 'one' or 'thing' of an intellect and knowledge far beyond contemporary Man's.

Think about it:

The 10 Commandments are a 'blueprint' for living life - a blueprint which, if adhered to, guarantees the ascension to a state akin to 'paradise', though this is the 'ultimate' ascension of the species rather than any ascension to 'heaven' of any 'righteous' individual upon physical death.

It's as if some superior being said to primitive man; you're doing it all wrong. Here - do it this way, and one day you will reach paradise.

Crazy nonsense?

1) You shall have no other gods before Me.
2) You shall not make idols.
3) You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.
4) Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.

Adherence to the first 4 Commandments above, has many benefits - none more so than the fact that through Monotheism and a universal acceptance of One God instead of many different ones, it will put an end to religious wars and all the killing and suffering which they entail.

5) Honor your father and your mother.
6) You shall not murder.
7) You shall not commit adultery.
8) You shall not steal.
9) You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
10) You shall not covet your neighbors goods.

Adherence to the other 6 Commandments above, will put an end to stealing, murder and killing each other, as well as all the violence and strife which desiring your neighbours wives and possessions, and disrespecting others can lead to.

Keep thinking with an open mind. Imagine;

A society with no crime, no wars, and no civil unrest. A society, therefore, where Police and armies, and all the associated organisations, are ultimately unnecessary.

Think of all the cumulative trillions of zillions of pounds which are currently wasted on weapons, war, crime detection, being invested instead on medical and other 'scientific' research.

Wouldn't we eventually conquer cancer and other horrific diseases? Wouldn't we succeed in mastering new technological means of food production? We have already isolated the ant-ageing gene, so isn't it probable that we will have conquered ageing if not death itself as well?

Wouldn't we have mastered interplanetary if not interstellar space flight? Colonised the moon? Colonised other worlds? What a future. No dystopia just utopia.

A civilisation with no crime, no wars, and no civil unrest. A world without disease or illness. A world where starvation is unknown, and where citizens virtually live forever.

Isn't this one form of 'paradise'? A paradise which the entire human species can one day attain.

Who drafted the 10 Commandments so many thousands of years ago?

According to the Torah, the Ten Commandments were given to Moses by God on Mt Sinai. They are not mentioned in the Torah before then so I'm not sure where the instances of them previously being inexistence could be. As for who drafted them... well, according to Judaism, and to Christian religions (because Jesus said he upheld the laws of Moses), it was God.

The utopia you describe if everyone followed the laws to the letter would be great if human beings, both religious and non-religious, could function without greed and envy and rage and lust... but sadly, we can't.

The utopia you describe if everyone followed the laws to the letter would be great if human beings, both religious and non-religious, could function without greed and envy and rage and lust... but sadly, we can't. (Livia)

Sadly this is the truth of the matter Livia. I wonder if our makeup is due to present or past genes as in reincarnatio if one believes in it?

On the 23rd November 1987, after watching a TV programme on events in 1980, empathic thoughts made me consider two points of view, they came about with the murder of Jean Donovan, a young Catholic Missionery along with 3 American Nuns in El Salvador and the murder of a young lad from El Salvador. Two different sides but one side was trying to help and was killed, then we have retaliation whereby a young lad was also killed.

Two Points of View

"What a beautiful concept Jeannie did say,
When she spoke of the "Lord" at the end of the day.
She remarked "Lord" you promised to walk in my path every hour.
When I walk happy in the sand and I turn face about,
I see two sets of footsteps and I gleefully shout.
But Lord when I need thee and I turn around,
There is only one set of footsteps to be found.
So where are you?

The "Lord" replied in compassionate voice,
"But Jeannie when you see two you know I am there.
Your happiness and love I gladly share.
So when down at heart your faith should be strong,
To see only one set you are surely not wrong,
For that is when with the cloak of compassion,
I carry thee in true love and a heavenly passion".
.................................................. ..........

The above is the beginning of my story re the young lad who was killed in El Salvador, I wrote it after watching the programme so the words of Footsteps in the Sand are not true to the original, I did it by memory. It is a lovely piece and even if we do not believe in a "God" it gives us hope that we are not alone.