Originally Posted by Toy Soldier (Post 8504993)

"If Steve's blood on my toes looks the ****, YOU MUST AQUIT!"

Originally Posted by Niamh. (Post 8504994)

:laugh:

If the blood on my toes makes me look filthy, then it's pretty obvious that Steve is NOT GUILTY!!

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier (Post 8505010)

"If you think blood on my toes makes me look a bit flirty, let's head to Avery's yard and start gettin' dirty"

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier (Post 8505012)

FFS who makes these things:

https://41.media.tumblr.com/e3917c10...1yd0o1_500.png

:joker:

Originally Posted by Niamh. (Post 8505013)

"If the Blood on my toes came from that Vial, then don't you agree Steve deserves a new trial?"

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier (Post 8505016)

"If Avery's blood's only where Avery goes,
how do you explain that it's coating my toes?
I'll tell you fine jurors; it came from a vial,
And THAT is why Avery should get a new trial.

Case dismissed drop the ****ing mic."

Originally Posted by Ammi (Post 8506767)

..if you had blood on your toes and it's not there anymore..don't worry, you'll probably find it on a RAV4...

Originally Posted by Ammi (Post 8503192)

..you know what I think (atm..)...and this a bit way out there, I know..(which is why I only voiced it privately to Drew a while ago and then said I would shoot him and burn his body if he ever said anything..)...

..I don't think that the police interfered as much as we think they did, I think they did go onto his property illegally and find Teresa's car so that's been suspicious..but I think that Steven killed Teresa and then himself 'planted evidence' and he did that because he wanted it to be the same as before/the conspiracies and the suspicions etc, so he had to remove evidence and then plant it...it's the most logical thing that the killer is the one who had her car key and I believe he killed her...the dna/sweat/blood..?..well...(those are all things he could get from himself and he seems like a bit of a sweaty person..)...and the charred bones obviously, although he may not have so much planted them later, as burned her body later....


...the 'psychology' I think is a little like I said in another post about Brendon, that he seemed to lead an 'invisible' life in terms of his family/social groups etc and the only pic I've seen him smiling in was one which was taken in prison, that maybe prison has given him something..?...and ok, well he wouldn't have smiled that much with what he was going through/nothing to smile about...but then what would there be to smile about in prison either and I've googled so many pics, not one of him smiling except that one...

..anyway, that's Brendon...with Steven, well not many people seemed to think of the whole family in anything but a negative way/that creepy weirdo family, type thing...and within the family environment itself..?...again, brother, cousins, nephews etc...all probably a little 'invisible'...so Steven was also a disturbed mind as well..(I think..)...had he have been convicted for the original 6 years for threatening his cousin with a gun/jumping out at her etc...he would have been a guilty man, serving a sentence, nothing more than that...as it was and because of an incompetent forensics person plus a police dept that were all too willing to believe he raped as well...he served 18yrs of a legitimate protested innocence...and the 'attention' that received, suddenly Steven Avery was someone and he was someone in a positive way, because he was an innocent man..people fought for him..'his supporters', he had the full attention of his parents, it became his life for 18yrs and in a perverted, disturbing way..something he likes....he was 'Steven Avery' an innocent man....so I think it became his 'comfort zone' almost but also gave him 'fame'...he killed Teresa I think because, he is a disturbed person, he's a killer...but being a guilty man would give him nothing that he'd been given before and nothing that he 'craved', so he had to try to become an innocent man and 'interfere' himself....


..I guess what I'm thinking as well, is of killers like Mark David Chapman who killed John Lennon, he wanted to be 'famous' and obviously an unwell mind...with Steven I don't think that he wanted to or craved until it came to him through incompetence and a conviction that was wrongful...through that, he got so much attention and I think that was a world that he wanted to live in again....so many people out her, fighting pleading his innocence and focusing on him...

Originally Posted by jet (Post 8509759)

Thanks for the link to this thread Ammi....I've now watched it all and read most everything here. Another addict!
I'm not sure about that theory Ammi. If Avery killed Theresa so he could once again be the 'framed' innocent man wasn't he taking an enormous risk by going overboard with his 'planted evidence' to the extent that he wouldn't seem even slightly innocent at all, but glaringly guilty?
Not just planting the key himself and planting his sweat and blood in her car, but leaving her car on his premises, not removing her remains from the fire pit and drum etc, planting a bullet in his garage etc? How would any of that point to any doubt at all as to his guilt, in his own mind? There would have been no innocent man wrongly convicted, but a guilty man locked away for life.
He wouldn't have known beforehand that the Manatowoc county guys would enter his premises when they shouldn't have, therefore throwing particular suspicion on them (given the past history) for planting the key, bullet, blood etc. Once they had entered a few times, I believe Steve and his family weren't allowed back on their premises for some time? so maybe he couldn't have planted the key/bullet later. I'm pretty sure the bullet at least was found when the family were holed up somewhere else and it hadn't been in the garage when searched many times previously. He wouldn't have wiped the key clean of Teresa's dna and left his own on it if he wanted it to appear he was framed.

Also, the millions that were about to be his....he wouldn't have been a 'nobody' but a very rich man in his community... with all the clout that comes with that for many people. He and his family had been poor all their lives, looked down upon - wouldn't he have felt how good it would be to rub his riches in the faces of those who had looked upon them as 'scum'? Why kill someone at THAT time just for the attention of a dubious 'innocent man wrongly convicted' storyline again?

On the other hand, if he killed her because he is evil or perverted, not for the innocent man wrongly convicted tag, why would he leave her car on the premises and burn her body in his own firepit? What about the stench of a burning body?
Or if he burned her body somewhere else, why would he move it to his firepit? Why partially cover the car with some branches so instead of hiding it, it only made it stand out among the other cars? Why not drive her car with the body in it somewhere well away and dispose of it instead of leaving both right there practically in his own backyard? He doesn't seem crazy or stupid enough for that.
So although I dislike the man a lot, at the moment I'm thinking innocent.
And that poor Brendan was just used by police. I've no idea how any jury could have found him guilty beyond reasonable doubt...

Originally Posted by jet (Post 8509931)

Josy, the blood in the trailer/garage question - My thoughts.....Wasn't the only evidence they found that caused death a gunshot to the head? I'm thinking Teresa's throat wasn't slit at all as anything Brendan said could be put down to police trying to get details out of him and unfortunately for them some of it didn't fit as he was making it up 'to please them'. As the only place her blood was found (if I remember correctly) was in her car, then after such a supposedly violent death (stabbing, shooting) then she couldn't have met her end that way in Steve's trailer or garage.
Once Brendan had told the police on tape and video that is where it happened, they had to go with that. I'm amazed the jury let the blood question go unanswered. I couldn't have found him guilty on that point alone.

As we only have Brendan's story about the throat slitting and shooting, and I think he is innocent and he wasn't there at all, then there would be no blood in those area's, as there wasn't.
Which means Steve didn't kill her, or he killed her elsewhere.
Which doesn't help lol and as I'm new to this thread all this may have been said before....

Originally Posted by jet (Post 8509759)

Thanks for the link to this thread Ammi....I've now watched it all and read most everything here. Another addict!
I'm not sure about that theory Ammi. If Avery killed Theresa so he could once again be the 'framed' innocent man wasn't he taking an enormous risk by going overboard with his 'planted evidence' to the extent that he wouldn't seem even slightly innocent at all, but glaringly guilty?
Not just planting the key himself and planting his sweat and blood in her car, but leaving her car on his premises, not removing her remains from the fire pit and drum etc, planting a bullet in his garage etc? How would any of that point to any doubt at all as to his guilt, in his own mind? There would have been no innocent man wrongly convicted, but a guilty man locked away for life.
He wouldn't have known beforehand that the Manatowoc county guys would enter his premises when they shouldn't have, therefore throwing particular suspicion on them (given the past history) for planting the key, bullet, blood etc. Once they had entered a few times, I believe Steve and his family weren't allowed back on their premises for some time? so maybe he couldn't have planted the key/bullet later. I'm pretty sure the bullet at least was found when the family were holed up somewhere else and it hadn't been in the garage when searched many times previously. He wouldn't have wiped the key clean of Teresa's dna and left his own on it if he wanted it to appear he was framed.

Also, the millions that were about to be his....he wouldn't have been a 'nobody' but a very rich man in his community... with all the clout that comes with that for many people. He and his family had been poor all their lives, looked down upon - wouldn't he have felt how good it would be to rub his riches in the faces of those who had looked upon them as 'scum'? Why kill someone at THAT time just for the attention of a dubious 'innocent man wrongly convicted' storyline again?

On the other hand, if he killed her because he is evil or perverted, not for the innocent man wrongly convicted tag, why would he leave her car on the premises and burn her body in his own firepit? What about the stench of a burning body?
Or if he burned her body somewhere else, why would he move it to his firepit? Why partially cover the car with some branches so instead of hiding it, it only made it stand out among the other cars? Why not drive her car with the body in it somewhere well away and dispose of it instead of leaving both right there practically in his own backyard? He doesn't seem crazy or stupid enough for that.
So although I dislike the man a lot, at the moment I'm thinking innocent.
And that poor Brendan was just used by police. I've no idea how any jury could have found him guilty beyond reasonable doubt...

Originally Posted by Ammi (Post 8511144)

....hmmm, but with all of that evidence as it is right now, he isn't glaringly guilty though, that's the thing..?..(if that theory were true, which I'm not totally convinced of myself, the case is too complicated/wouldn't that mean that he more or less got it just right/'planting in stages etc'..he couldn't be found innocent and not convicted and he couldn't be a guilty man either...and that's where we're at right now..?..)...there is probably no doubt that the person who murdered her had her car key and no doubt that he had his own DNA to 'plant', rather than more complicated and corruption explanations...

..yeah, I do understand what you're saying about him being a rich man, making him 'someone' in his mind..?...but then, that would also be a 'sound/logical mind' thought ..maybe in his unhealthy and disturbed mind, that would have just given him 'the same nobody but with money'..?...more about the genuine respect/support he felt in his thoughts, that being an 'innocent man' gave him in those 18yrs...(actually if it were a true theory, it really would be 'the making of a murderer' in that he was made that murderer in prison...


..I guess my train of thought with the theory anyway, came from the thing that we don't know for sure anything other than Teresa was shot in the head and her body burned...and a shot to the head feeling to me more like an 'execution'...for some reason that's really bugging me and not the 'profile' of this sort of murder...so if we look at the potential suspects but count out Steven as being innocent, but being framed..?...why then when that murderer would want everything to point to Steven would they burn the body...they had planted the car on his property, they pretty much knew he would be the number 1 suspect, so why not leave her body in the car/leave the keys in the car etc...?..surely a risk to start 'planting' when they could have just driven away after leaving all evidence in one place and be pretty certain he would be convicted..?...and also that 'murderer' going back to the property to plant after a time when they would know that the property would surely have had police/forensics around constantly..a huge risk of being found putting her remains outside the garage, in a full open area..also his van/trailer where he lived, being something that seems to be a place that could be easily seen with people going in and out of...so are we saying that the police themselves actually murdered someone because of the lawsuit he was about to win..?..hmmm, that would be hard to believe tbh, corruption possibly but murder...

..one of the things that's really bugging me as well is the whole timing...oh how convenient that he should be convicted of murder just before he was about to win....but how 'convenient' also that Teresa be killed/that anyone be murdered just before as well ..in a county that was meant to have comparatively little serious crimes like that...

Originally Posted by jet (Post 8511400)

I think the theory that he framed himself only fits 'after the fact' - it fits in well with what transpired after the murder, but could it fit if it was 'planned'? Could he have been smart enough to get it all right, could everything he hoped would happen fall beautifully into place? There are too many things that could have gone wrong. What if he was arrested within days and couldn't plant the key, and later, the bullet? (I wish I knew when he and the family were removed from their home and weren't allowed back for 6 weeks.) What if someone had seen him moving her body to the firepit to be burnt? etc. Now it is being reported that Teresa had a BUNCH of keys, not just one, and they have never been found. :conf:
And all those years in prison when nothing is happening for long long periods between appeals etc. No attention, no real hope. He already had experience of that for 18 yrs...at his age would he want all that again? I wouldn't. But then he might have been very disturbed, as you say, and I'm of a sound mind. IMO. :hehe: AND he did seem very laid back and unperturbed when convicted again, almost as if he was enjoying it, so....it's all a bit of a mind **** isn't it? :shrug:

What do you think of the police/Bobby Dassey/Scotty T theory that was linked back on page one?

The fact her body was burnt is the one thing that convinces me she was raped. If her body was found intact, there would have been an autopsy and evidence of the rapist's dna would have been found. This, to me, points to Bobby Dassey and Scotty T. They were the ones that said they saw Teresa talking to Steve. They only had alibis for each other. Bobby had scratches on his back. They gave some unconvincing evidence at the trial. They could have kidnapped her, taken her into the woods and raped her, then like many rapists before them, shot her so she couldn't tell. They burn her body in the woods, put the remains in the drum and throw them into Steve's firepit. They drive the car to the yard, put some branches around it so it would stand out among the other cars (for it wasn't exactly camouflaged, was it?)

Now....what if the police knew or strongly suspected the 2 of them. They could have found something incriminating that they didn't reveal - not even to Dassey and Scotty T themselves. That would account for why they didn't even bother to take fingerprints, dna samples etc from them, or anyone else around the yard for that matter. They didn't want them to be found out - they wanted Steve. And they go on to plant the key, the bullet, the blood etc as outlined in that linked theory.

Do you think we will ever know? I read there is going to be a retrial with a new lawyer...

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier (Post 8511413)

Also... No... Sadly I don't think we'll ever know what happened to the girl. If Avery and Brendan are found not to have done it and released, even proven conclusively to be innocent, they will still never be able to charge anyone else with the murder. Any ability to investigate further, and more evidence there might once have been, will have been gone or tainted for years by now.

Originally Posted by MTVN (Post 8512340)

Yep, and I also think it's not worth speculating over really. Saying that Teresa's ex or her brother might have done it on the basis that they look 'dodgy' is the same sort of thinking that meant Avery never had a chance of a fair trial. I don't think that Avery did it and I don't think there was enough evidence to convict him but there was a heck of a lot more than there is for Bobby Dassey or anyone else. Sad truth is probably that no one will ever know for sure what happened and who was responsible.

Originally Posted by GiRTh (Post 8512852)

Its a bit more that that. The fact Bobby and Scotty alibied each other and Bobby's reaction to the conviction; the quote 'This is the best decision ever' is a strange reaction to a family member being convicted even if they think he did it. Also, the saga with the cell phone that her BF 'guessed' her password was never investigated even though it was clear someone had deleted messages.

The fact Bobby and Scotty were never considered suspects beggers belief considering the supposed obsession the police had with the Avery family.

One thing that I'm still not sure about; why was Jodi not allowed to drink? She said she'd be arrested if she drank. I never quite got that.

Originally Posted by MTVN (Post 8512916)

The alibi thing is a bit strange but its still a leap to suppose they're guilty because of it and if that is the sort of evidence that suggests guilt then there's more that can be applied to Steven than to anyone else. Also that quote was from Scott and it might be that from his point of view Steven is responsible for his step son still rotting in jail right now. Scott is still campaigning for Brendan's release and has been since the conviction. Big part of the documentary really was that people have a right to be presumed innocent and anyone suggesting otherwise should have to be 'swimming upstream' in an attempt to prove it. There just isn't enough to say that any of Bobby/Scott/the ex are guilty apart from a couple of questionable statements. Easy to forget that these are all people who have their own lives and families now and a load of armchair detectives talking about them being murderers must be pretty horrible. In fairness I am guilty of this as well because I've got pretty into all the various theories and everything but it just struck me reading a 'where are they now' article how Bobby now has a wife and kids, Theresa's brother has a standard city job etc. they've all tried to get on with their lives and suddenly they've not only become worldwide names but also suspects.

Originally Posted by MTVN (Post 8512916)

The alibi thing is a bit strange but its still a leap to suppose they're guilty because of it and if that is the sort of evidence that suggests guilt then there's more that can be applied to Steven than to anyone else. Also that quote was from Scott and it might be that from his point of view Steven is responsible for his step son still rotting in jail right now. Scott is still campaigning for Brendan's release and has been since the conviction. Big part of the documentary really was that people have a right to be presumed innocent and anyone suggesting otherwise should have to be 'swimming upstream' in an attempt to prove it. There just isn't enough to say that any of Bobby/Scott/the ex are guilty apart from a couple of questionable statements. Easy to forget that these are all people who have their own lives and families now and a load of armchair detectives talking about them being murderers must be pretty horrible. In fairness I am guilty of this as well because I've got pretty into all the various theories and everything but it just struck me reading a 'where are they now' article how Bobby now has a wife and kids, Theresa's brother has a standard city job etc. they've all tried to get on with their lives and suddenly they've not only become worldwide names but also suspects.