I have to say I cried when I saw that lifeless baby being pulled out of the rubble of a house. :(

Sure
that's a battle going on
for some time now

i suggest just the first few minutes may help you..

Indeed, IMO there simply is no morally right side to take in this conflict politically. It's a MESS, it's been a mess for the better part of a century. The only victims in this are not "Palestine" or "Israel", they are the civilians from both countries who are suffering because of machinations they have no control over.

There's elements of that in every war and it has always been thus... however, in this, far more than most.

And the social media disinformation and "side taking" doesn't help matters... as well as being inappropriate, and crass to the point of being disgusting. Infested with the usual banal, shallow tribalism completely devoid of any hint of consideration or compassion.

you either wash your hands of it or you take a side in any war. Thats the way of war

I fundamentally reject this statement as anti-intellectual claptrap, sorry BOTS. It is absolutely possible to observe any conflict (be that between two of your pals or two world powers) from an as-objective-as-possible analytical standpoint whilst still empathising with anyone caught up in the carnage through no fault of their own.

It's the normal, human response.

meanwhile in Netherlands, in Urk to be more specific

https://nltimes.nl/2023/10/11/israel...homes-set-fire

https://nltimes.nl/sites/nltimes.nl/...jpg?h=d1cb525d

as for stranded dutch tourists in Israel

https://nltimes.nl/2023/10/11/defens...e-israel-today

they were being brought home today as we speak, there were still many hundreds of tourists trapped in Israel

with respect take a look at history. I don't go with pseudo intellectual clap trap

Take a look at what in history? It's not "pseudo-intellectual" to try to take an objective view of war, it's literally academic, and what the entire study of history is about. The idea that you have to "pick a side 'til it's over" before you can have a proper look at the political nuance involved is emotive garbage.

i agree with SB here


both sides have innocent victims



Hamas are evil scum yup, can't argue against that


but i personally don't think bombing the hell out of Gaza is the smartest thing to do from Israel, you'd know you also cause a lot of collateral damage like that, rather than precision attacks (tbh that is what the Mossad used to be very good at)

not all palestinians are hamas militants



and also cutting Gaza off from food, water supplies, like what the **** that is seriously unethical towards the innocents living there :umm2:


what the EU says too, Israel has a right to defend itself, with counter attacks, but cutting Gaza off from food, water and medical supplies shouldn't be allowed

so they bulldozed and paraglided in to do what exactly? what was the intention?

For the record I dont agree with cutting off vital supplies to civilians but Hamas are the key to starting this

what do you think Nato is? It is a side already picked. Do you think any Nato country is going to join Russia and attack Ukraine.

The world is based around partners you can trust .... taking a side

Just because they forced their way in and killed people doesn't make all the facts true especially when the facts were told by the enemy

The same Nato where tensions are intensifying between 2 of the nations?

pretty sure Hamas have themselves posted clips of carnage?

Are you saying this is a lie

An Israeli grandmother was murdered by Hamas terrorists with her killers posting it on her own Facebook account, her family has said.

Describing her as “pure and good”, the unnamed woman’s granddaughter Mor Bayder claimed the horrifying videos were shared publicly on social media, reportedly showing the elderly woman being slaughtered in her own home.

“A terrorist came home to her, killed her, took her phone, filmed the horror and published it on her Facebook wall,” Ms Bayder said. “This is how we found out.”

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world...0ee631b8&ei=11

What does NATO and any country's global political maneuvering have to do with an individual's opinion of a conflict or war in general? What does it have to do with individually "taking a side"? Unless you're suggesting that there's some patriotic necessity for individual opinion - or even mass public approval - to be on the same side as a nation's global political decision-making by default?

They are ENTIRELY separate discussions and, in fact, my opinion on the outcome that would be best for global stability has really nothing at all to do with any moral assessment of how a conflict has started. If Israel doesn't win this conflict and return to relative stability fairly quickly, from a western perspective (which I do indeed selfishly have to take, being a family man living in the west) we're in a very bad situation.

That has no bearing at all on any objective moral right or wrong in the situation.

Hamas is an organisation of religious extremists who have used unthinkable terrorist tactics.

Israel has increasingly become an apartheid borderline fascist state (also packed to the gills with religious ideology/a clear philosophy of supremacy) that has mistreated Palestine abysmally.

Everyone is free to believe differently, if they happen to believe differently, but no one "has to" support either by pretending anything else.

Sadly,
17 Britons missing in Israel

SkyNewsHD reports

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2023/10...7034265020.jpg

[Hamas has this afternoon launched
a fresh wave of rocket attacks across southern Israel,
including a child development centre,
even as Gaza holds its breath with
Israel's Defence Forces massing hundreds of
thousands of troops on its border.

Shocking images and videos out of
Israel's southern city of Ashkelon purportedly
showed how the Child Development wing of
the Barzilai Medical Centre suffered a direct hit
which reduced parts of the building to rubble.

A spokeswoman for the
centre said: ''The child development centre at
the Barzilai hospital in Ashkelon suffered
a direct hit by a projectile from Gaza,'
while Deputy Director Dr. Gili Givati told
Israeli public radio: 'The development centre was
completely destroyed.']

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...st-terror.html

You are too young to have experienced the UK at war. I experienced the Falklands war in my 20's. We all patriotically supported our country as individuals. It's what you do. Your side is picked and if you supported Argentina, you would be a traitor. Sides are pre-ordained depending on political allegiance with other countries. You cannot pretend otherwise

Which has nothing to do with what I said, try harder