finally an intelligent unbiased response.
its wholly irrelevant when looking at debt accrued over 30 to 40 years.
sadly this lot cant actually have a debate about anything as their nepotism always gets in the way

Oh don't worry the conservatives are getting us out of debt, like mags they are selling arms to despots, starving the most vulnerable and promoting venture capitalism...
What could go wrong?

What could go wrong?Mmm lets see,well we could vote labour back in and drown in debt once again,then some other party can take the flack and try and get us out of it again:hugesmile:

Do you still think the worldwide recession only happened here?
Ok then...
I agree that Blairs war was costly and wrong.
The point I was trying to make was that as a government the tories seem to be making similar decisions now as they did then.
But who benefits?

I find the Labour "it was a worldwide recession" excuse as annoying as the Conservative's "we're just trying to clear up Labour's mess". Yes it was global but that doesn't mean that Labour aren't guilty of mismanaging the economy, making some important mistakes and spending beyond our means. If you look at Canada they avoided the financial crises, and they're more likely than anyone to be affected by what was happening in America, but they were responsible with their budget and didn't allow things to get out of hand, it's why landing Mark Carney as the new Bank of England governor was actually a rare great move by Osborne

It's not an excuse though..
There was a worldwide recession.
What about the eurozone crisis, is that an excuse?
Have you seen the cuts faced by Ireland today in the Guardian?

Don't talk to me.......

Yes I acknowledged that, my point is that there being a worldwide recession didn't mean it was inevitable that our economy would be in as bad a state as it was or that it was completely out of our own hands, Labour are not blame free

So no thanks to nice Mr Major for joining the European Union?
Niamh, would you like to say thankyou?

ha, tbf most of our problems are down to our s**ty and corrupt politicians imo but the Euro hasn't been great for us either, that's for sure!

Oh you poor thing... Our politicians are great, salt of the earth types.
They even let small businessmen who contribute a small donation write their policies, Mr Wonga did one... It was fab! :joker:

:laugh: Did you know our Taoiseach is the 4th highest paid Politician in the world? I mean seriously, here we are getting squeezed for all we have, having to take bail outs from Europe and then they pay themselves more than almost every other county in the worlds politicians, it's sickening tbh

europe finally sunk labur imho....blair give up billions in our rebate for nothing in return, what an idiot....then gordon brown would still possibly have won the last election IF he had stood up to the eurocrats, that was his last chance saloon and sadly he failed to grasp his opportunity.

I'll just see if I can help us out, let me look at my bank account..

its important people know the true debt. not just the £1 trillion owed by the government but the $10.4 trillion owed in total by us all publicly and privately. the us DOES include all private and public debt in their $16trillion debt figure, the UK does not, so we are in fact lying about the true figures. its the second highest debt in the world and per head is higher than almost every nation on earth. I just want you to be aware of the true situation and let others know. when the titanic sinks will you stay on board with the band or look for the nearest lifejcket?

It's still irrelevant. You can't take on debt reduction when the economy is so bad. Cuts have shrunk the economy, not increased revenues. When times are bad, you invest in jobs and infrastructure. Get people into work, and then go from there.

Debt is never irrelevant, period, try telling those debtors it doesnt matter? Especially one as gargantuan as $10.4 trillion

Its simple to say invest in infrastructure and jobs in bad times, but how many people really do that and where would the money come from? I would add that I 100% agreed with Obama in taking that strategy, however americas gdp is way bigger than ours, they have diversified in way more areas than us...we idiotically put all our eggs in just one or 2 baskets, became over reliant on external nations for much of our energy too...a risky short term foolish strategy started by thatcher and continued by labour. in fact the gap between rich and poor under labour became bigger than since the days of oliver twist, what a disgraceful bunch of champagne socialists they turned out to be....they then tried to conceal their complete failure by buttering us up with gimmick issues like fox hunting and gay marriages, whilst thousands died in illegal wars over oil needed to save our economy, the biggest property crash ever, thousands froze in winter and tens of thousands died of abuses in hospitals and no military hospitals for injured war vets.

the US GDP in effect covers their debts...ours does not...Especially when we were in danger of losing our credit rating. Our low interest rates and the fact this government has at least taken some action to rectify a failing economy is the main reason weve kept the interest rates lower than almost all other european nations. Brown was right up to a point but he didnt act soon enough and he didnt sell his idea well enough.

I would add this government should have done way more. Its pathetic in fact how little they did. then again labour did nothing at all for small businesses in 13 years. Thats a disgraceful endictment of their ultimately failed government.

With the job market so saturated that it is driving down wages, the tax threshold being raised to £9'440 won't people be working for less pay and paying little or no tax?
How can there be growth from that?
Unless you see it as we are all productive little rats on a wheel running round for little reward till we drop dead... to be replaced by another rat........

that doesnt make sense? less tax means more money in the pockets of these people on the lower end of the scale and more money to spend in the economy and create more growth?
this is called the mulitplier effect, this increased spending reults in higher revenues at busninesses and higher profits and more tax on higher profits.
sadly the governments strategy totally contradicts itself by raising vat on fuel to 20% that has to be slashed urgently on all goods imho

But if the hourly rate of pay has fallen therefore more people have less disposable income to spend on goods and services, so to me it's a lose lose situation..
Workers have less dosh
They spend less dosh
They contribute less dosh...
Who benefits from this senario?

the hourly rate will rise if consumer spedning rises (as a result of tax breaks for the poorest) they spend more, shops take more revenue and profits and that goes towards increased wages. many businesses paya basic plus a commission...again a factor ignored by the militant left when preaching about minimum wages. the commission incentivizes workers to sell more and do a better job. thenthey get the rightful rewards. this in turn increases their chances of full time posts and promotions. Be honest , work harder and better and ultimately you will get your just rewards. And youll sleep better at night.

Poor people spend all the money they have. Commission is hardly ever a factor in lower paid jobs.

Just another point about that militant left, you keep on about. Without unions, kids were allowed to do manual jobs, employers could fire workers for no reason, pregnant women could be fired. Employers could have dangerous working practices etc.

When I worked for someone else, I was well paid through basic salary and commission + bonuses. I worked in sales. But the lower paid people in the office, like administrators never received the same bonuses that I did, and without them, I would have been unable to do my job as well.

Now I employ 2 people, and their whole salaries are based on commission. I pay them a basic, but they have to pay me back on a monthly basis before they start earning bonuses. Let's not pretend that commission is a universal thing that low wage workers get. They don't.

Unions like the welfare state and the nhs were created for all the right reasons by truly great men. Sadly theyve grown into something completely different. They became bloated ridddled with corruption, self interest and pojnt scoring. Virtually bankrupting us a few times over the years. The nursing and teaching union have become so much this way theyve failed to weed out the enormous incompetence and malpractice , this results in a minute fraction of bad teachers and bad nurses being weeded out , warned and sacked. in the end the masses suffer.


as for your point about commission.No one pretended it was universal? however there is commission, rewards, bonuses and promotions available to a vast majority of honest hard working decent people.

Would you say the same thing about the church? Unions protect workers, and that's what they do. They shouldn't be offering up pay cuts to rich corporations, just to make it so we don't have to hear about it on the news. It's a really sad and misguided opinion you have there.

No everyone has ambition, though, and commission isn't available to workers up and down the country. You won't find any manual workers earning commissions, rewards or bonuses. They will also have about 1 manager to a few hundred people. How often do you think the opportunity for promotion arises?

Oh great! the poorest get a tax break so they can spend more but ohno! the cost of energy has just risen pushing up food costs...
Commission, how many jobs are commission based?
Are you meaning performance related pay?