I don't think ive ever heard such nonsense lol
we could have our own points system like every other nation
controlled borders, catch illegal immigrants
encourage legal people with skills but also have no space for legitimate assylm seekers
also wed be allowed to bring in anyone we like from outside the EU cartel

If immigration is considered a big enough issue, it will be controlled if we are out of the EU. Trade works both ways, the UK are one of the biggest purchasers in europe too, so no trade can be tied to free movement unless WE want it to be. It basically will all boil down to the economics of it at the end of the day. The government of the time will set the terms that are most advantageous, whereas now our hands are tied.

I agree. We probably wouldn't have control over immigration if we wanted to stay in the singe market but most Leavers accept that now and there are plenty of alternatives available where we could control immigration.

I'm voting Remain and nothing that I hear from the Leave side has made me question my decision but the EU as a whole needs to rethink the migration issue. It's basically accepted now that Schengen has failed but free movement also needs to be rethought if the EU is to expand more and more. IMO the PMs deal is a start in that, even if the brake on benefits doesn't affect migrations levels at least it is a logical start to reforming EU immigration and a sensible measure

We can bring in anyone from outside the EU now and indeed do,over 150,000 of them in the last year.

You are correct we could have a points system, could being the operative word, it is not a certainty and will in fact depend on what the EU demands from us as to any trading deal.
They are not just going to fall over and give us anything we want.

theyre irrelevant to those decisions. what you also fail to factor is brexit will hurt those unelected crooks. it will see heads roll and the whole farce will simply have to become more realitstic and more democratic and accountable. heck if they manage to get rid of the crooks and the 109 billion missing euros and actually get their accounts passed and get youth unemployment to below 40% one day we the most successful nation in Europe may consider rejoining a new Europe...my heart bleeds for the greeks the italians, the portugueses and millions of other dirt poor eu members absolutely ensvaled to the eu leaders and merkel in particular, who is allowed to run germany and the eu simultaneously...lol talk about conflict of interests...the whole thing will sink regardless.

:thumbs:

So being out of the EU won't change a thing, do you think brexiteers know this?

We will be able to CHOOSE who we want/need from anywhere on the globe whilst keeping immigration numbers sensible.Doctors,technicians,refugees etc etc.Rather than thousands of strawberry pickers,cleaners or benefits migrants who end up getting benefits to top up their incomes.We will have less unemployed as the people we select will be skilled and targeted for the areas they are needed and more jobs for us.

it will change a lot for those poor people still in this corrupt illegal cartel

it will enable us to do what we like trade all over the world let in who we want when we want and yes it will also help us allow some of the REAL desperate genuine refugees not zillions of illegal immigrants , many of whom bring no skills and refuse to integrate...some also are serious criminals and some are potential terrorists. if we select who we want we can bring in thousands of fantastic hard working people, we can vet those illegal people and we can help the real victims. oh and we can look after british people too who have paid into the system their whole lives. or is looking after our fellow brits now considered racist too?

Probably they do Kizzy but maybe do not want to acknowledge that fact.

We had a nett migration of 334,000 last year of which only 184,000 were from the EU.

If we come out of the EU and firmly refuse to do any deal with the EU that involves the free movement of EU citizens, then we would be able to stop people coming from the EU to the UK.

If that is, and for me it is a mighty big 'if' but also in my view probably impossible we could get any trading deal with the EU,where all the other 27 EU members would give us said deal, without the insistence of free movement of EU citizens.

Hypothetically,If I personally was one of the heads of those other 27 EU Nations we would be leaving behind in the EU.
I would not be looking to give the UK any easy deal whatsoever.

I frankly in that scenario, would not even be bothered likely what happened to the UK, and would hope most or even all the foreign investment there is in the UK would be moved to mainland Europe after the UK left too.

The full and real duty of the EU hierarchy will be to do the best for, and satisfy, the remaining EU member Nations, not run after a Nation 'choosing' to run away.

Then if you were the head of one of those 27 nations you would be massively losing out on a massive market for your country.
Those heads of state want and need a good deal with us and won't cut off their noses to spite their face.

This is where you and I differ strongly on this one,I see the UK as the one cutting off its nose to spite its face by leaving.
Which is why I am not taking that risk and will vote to remain.

If however as to your point, I was one of those 27 heads of an EU member remaining, I would take that risk and refuse to ratify any deal for the UK that did not insist on the UK accepting the free movement of EU citizens.
That would then be the UKs choice to make.

Even if we do leave however, I do in fact believe ayway that the UK govt in negotiation for a deal,will accept the free movement of EU citizens, saying that was the only way to get a substantial and good deal for the UK in the end.

There is not going to be any other referendum asking the UK voters again if they want to accept the negotiated deal made by the govt after an exit vote.
That decision will be the govts and the govts alone.

That's petty self defeatist self destructive and would bankrupt the eu even more lol
Don't you get it the eu is bust

Even if the government in power does'nt think that migration is too high now.At the rate it's coming it's not going to be all that long until we as a country have to put the brakes on or atleast take control of the numbers.This tiny island has its limits.Atleast out of the EU we have the option to do that when the sh1t really does hit the fan and one government will have to do that,It is inevitable.It's going to happen.As an EU member we are impotent to do anything.

NM if your reasons for voting to leave the EU hinge on migration levels, I'd humbly (since I'm a humble fellow) suggest that you've been mislead and will be disappointed (in the event of Brexit, when it has little impact on migration). If you have other solid reasons for wanting out of the EU, if you just think that on balance it's the right way to go, then that's one thing... but so many people are letting their thinking regarding the referrendum hinge on migration and it's a complete red herring.

Migration is 'a' reason i'm voting out.Not 'the' reason.
I don't like the whole concept of what it has become since becoming the EU.I think in the beginning the EEC was a good idea but it has become a totally different authoritarian beast.The people who put forward the laws to be pondered over by the EU parliament are not elected they are 'appointed'.They imo don't really like the concept of nations and only want what is good for their organisation and not the member states.You may argue that what is good for the EU is obviously good for its members but i believe that the interests of the member states are only second to the interests of this giant bloated company we know as the European Union.:laugh:

I don't necessarily disagree that there are plenty of serious flaws with the EU, however, I personally think there's plenty of scope for drastic reform into something great rather than just cashing in our chips and heading home. My main gripe really is that no one has tried particularly hard to achieve that. A few token gripes here and there but mostly just lumbering along, and then wondering why it isn't quite working.

I could understand the drive to dismantle it if we had been trying for years to find a better solution, failing to do so, and having no other option. As it stands, it all seems to be somewhat knee-jerk, ill thought out, and driven by misplaced economic and security concerns.

I think in order to reform it,It would take a consensus from all its members,Members all with different interests and i think a consensus would never be reached.
They can't even form a consensus on the recent refugee crisis so every nation has gone into panic mode and erected fences round their borders apart from Germany who invited the world with little thought for the surrounding countries.This is just one small example why the EU as a concept is deeply flawed.
All these different countries and cultures all want different things and jamming them all together under a common rule is destined to fail.
Everything takes years and years to sort out.Every treaty,trade deal,everything.
It is unworkable in my humble opinion and i think it is a sinking ship.Look at the Euro,What a mess.
We should don our life jackets and swim for dry land.Imo.

You don't know this.... that would be dependent on some points system that isn't even suggested anywhere is it?

Well it has actually been suggested.By the party that brought about this referendum in the first place but i cba to get into the rights and wrongs of UKIP.
I think an Australian style points system would be an excellent idea.Even if the governments we have are'nt suggesting it now it is a sensible option and could be taken onboard at a later date.The important thing is......

It would be our choice as a country to employ.

It's pure fantasy then?

I feel it will be necessary in the not too distant future.The people in power will have to drag their heads out of the sand eventually.It's just a question of when.

You have very valid points and I am one of the first to agree there is much wrong with the EU and a great deal needs to be changed.

Because I would like things to be reformed,then that is another reason I want the UK to remain, to help reform it.

I actually think reform of the EU would be harder with less members, I actually am one who thinks, rightly or wrongly,depending on what side of this issue anyone is on,that with many more Nations now in the EU, reform could be demanded and more likely achieved.

The eurozone is beginning to do better again and I do not think it is a sinking ship,probably not ever but certainly not for a long time to come.
hence why so many big Nations are seeking to set up trade deals with the EU.

However sinking ship or not, if it does sink and badly,then in or out, that will too have an effect on the UK,we cannot be immune to what happens in the eurozone, we do not ever need to join it,but in good times and bad times for the eurozone,it will affect the UK in some way.

You are right too in that you say trading deals take years to agree and set up too,that will apply to the UK too if we vote to leave with all the uncertainty that may entail as well.

I just am not a separatist and I believe change where change is needed is better achieved from within something rather than out of it.

Now, again, maybe I am foolish to do so and then again maybe I am not,however I do think the present PM we have has started a ball rolling slowly as to reforming the EU.
I also think the UK could begin to lead the way to more reform of the EU too.

So I will never change your mind nor you mine now but I would look for and hope for a better EU,with the UK helping lead the way in it, to that better way.
I respect your viewpoint and you make really valid points as to the make up of the EU being less than good.
I just have not heard a single thing as to out, that in any way convinces me that the UK can hold the status it has and certainly not do better out of the EU than what we are doing while in it as a full member.

If the out side could show me anyone in the EU saying the UK will not have to accept the free movement of EU citizens and also if they could present even one major nation, outside the EU, who is a friend or ally of the UK who are saying we should leave, and they will definitely step up to the mark for us if we do.
Then that would go some way to make me see 'out' differently.however there are none.

Yes but how does that relate to the immigration question regarding brexit?
Those advocating brexit have suggested will not only slow but stop... how?

I disagree.

However i respect your opinion on it and you make a very good argument.I may not agree on this but i learn much from your posts.