Is a pair of jeans, a blue bedroom, and all the counselling in the world really going to help a girl who's gowing an adams apple and a deep voice. She would still be a 50 year old woman who was forced into the boy-man puberty cycle because she was denied the drug to slow that down, even though she knew she wanted this as a child. She will still look down on herself with resentment, and that would be her parents fault more than anything, they have the choice now more than ever.

Imagine what Lauren Harries or Kellie Maloney could look like if they had the male puberty cycle slowed down or stopped.. Forcing kids into a gender just seems so outdated to me.

I know or that it's an old fashioned notion not to think it's a normal way to handle the situation

Well I cant imagine the drug would be beneficial for 5 year olds... that wasnt my point. My point was if a 5 year old knows their gender, but was being forced through a different puberty cycle several years later, even though a perfectly suitable drug exists, the parent has ruined that kids life.

A blue bedroom and a pair of jeans? So your idea of what gender is, is all the stereotypes? That's pretty outdated thinking to me

Ugh no, that wasnt my point either. I was suggesting that these things would not be helpful. That is not what a boy is. Its deeper than that, and counselling isnt going to stop your hormones changing you into something you know you're not.

Why do Lauren Harries or Kellie Maloney's appearances have any bearing on this discussion at all?

Is gender reassignment a beauty contest now? People come in all shapes and sizes, some have physical beauty some don't. What are you saying here?

Are you also saying that parent are to blame if they don't give in to everything a child demands? What if someone's child doesn't like the look of ears and wants them removed at 7?

I'm saying, and I've heard Lauren Harries say this too in some documentary I watched about 10/15 years ago, that some aspects of puberty is irreversible. Lauren may be legally, and technically a woman, but when she still went through the male puberty cycle, she still became something she was not, she can't get rid of her adams apple etc. Girls growing up in boys bodies now have the chance to stop processes like this, forcing them into it simply because they are a child and might be confused is gross.

They are not an earless person in a person-with-ears body. Why do you keep making ****e comparisons, do you even understand the topic?! This is the same as your princess metaphor.

She also can't grow a womb and ovaries. Whether she has medication, surgery or not.

... so she should still be a boy to this point... so she should shut her whining and be happy.. no ovaries = adams apple, its one or the other, thats the rule...

I dont get your point. Seems more transphobic than anything.

First paragraph, you said all that not me.

And here we go with the labels and accusations. I don't agree with you therefore I must be some sort of phobic. Grow up.

Wrong wrong wrong. Even sop called 'harmless' puberty blockers...which are actually chemotherapy drugs.

One day we will look back on this as a child abuse scandal of massive proportions. At the moment though, too many are willing to bury their heads in the sand about it all. So many kids will be harmed by this. Even now there are a fair few kids who want to reverse the damage done to them. Its just ****ing wring and I don't understand how anyone can ever agree with it. Some idiot parents are asking for referrals for their 3 year olds to 'gender clinics' ffs. And transactivists are fighting for 'less gatekeeping'?! Really?!

Like 80% of kids with gender confusion effectively grow out of it, and when they are older most of these simply are gay adults. 'Transing kids' is nothing more than modern day eugenics. How there seems to be widespread support for this I don't know. Let them wear what they like, play with what they like and so on. Using chemo drugs to delay puberty is just bat****. Also, 'reversible' is only technically...as 100% of kids put on blockers move onto cross sex hormones, probably as halting puberty also halts brain development so they get stuck in the same mindset.

I agree with niamh. Its child abuse. On a huge scale. I don't doubt the parents are trying to do whats best for the kids (especially after having distorted suicide stats thrown at them by the likes of 'mermaids' who are meant to HELP families like this) but its all just so ****ing wrong.

I also think come 10-20years time, we will look back on this 'treatment regime' the same way we look back at lobotomies. But the damage will have already been done by then. The side effects of Lupron are horrendous, even when taken short term.

Can you try to discus this without insulting people please?

First paragraph? You think Lauren Harries should still be a man to this point? And I'm not allowed to call that transphobia? Can reiterate, what do you mean by first paragraph?

Sorry Niamh, I don't understand the point she was making here. If there is not a point, it is transphobia. That is the definition of transphobia. I am not insulting her. That is the correct adjective (if there was not a point to that post).

:clap1:

I agree 100% but apparently only my views and comments are under question so I'm off for a bit!

To clarify: Physical aspects of starting out as one sex were being promoted as a reason to give drugs to children. I was pointing out these aren't the only physical issues that can't be changed.

Its not really a crap metaphor though, but for sake of the conversation, I will bite here. What is the difference between someone who is transgender and transabled? Or in the case of that Rachel Dolezqal person, trans-racial? Really?

Transabled people are distressed by what they consider to be limbs that do not belong to them, they are disabled people trapped in able bodies. They have surgeries (if they can find doctors willing to do them) to correct this. In what way is this different to considering yourself a different sex than you are and having surgeries to 'fix' this?

My view on pretty much the whole topic is that adults should do whatever they feel will help them in their daily lives tbh (though studies show that 'transition' is not a cure as some think, as mental health a few years after the original honeymoon period actually goes downhill) but kids should be left well alone. We shouldn't be using kids in experimental treatments. There are enough 'detransitioners' to question this 'surgery or die' rhetoric that we are fed. Also the likes of mermaids should be ****ing ashamed for peddling this '50% of transkids kill themselves' nonsense. Scaring parents into medicating their children for life. When in MOST cases, the kid if just left to go through puberty would be perfectly happy as an adult, and in most cases simply gay. Yes, a handful of these kids will turn out to actually be transsexual when they are older, but I don't get why its seen as a good thing to treat ALL questioning kids with these powerful and dangerous drugs, on the offchance that they are one of the 20% (or less) who continue to question as adults.

Difference is, up to this date, only one of those things can be scientifically proven.... Theres also no evidence to being an earless person in a person with ears body either. So yeah crap lol. Unless of course I'm wrong and it can be scientifically proven that you can be an earless person, I didnt actually Google.

In theory maybe, but in practice it doesn't happen like that.

This is the only study done on this to date, so all we can really go on

http://dailysignal.com/2017/07/03/im...e-child-abuse/

The study, if you fancy reading it

http://www.pinktherapy.com/portals/0...ts_with_GD.pdf

What do you mean by this? :suspect: That males trapped in female bodies and vice versa can actually be scientifically proven?

Earless people, do exist apparently. I didn't know that either :laugh:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agenesis

Yes, there are several difference in the male and female brain. Off the top of my head, males have 7x more grey matter than females, and females have 10x more white matter than males, this leads to several behavioural differences and can be seen in frmi scanners. MTF brains very closely resemble a female brain and vice versa.
I'm not sure if transabled brains and transracial brains are currently being examined in similar ways, but I do look for articles on the topic regularly, it does interest me... to my knowledge, currently, theres no scientific foundation to people identifying this way being based on anything substantial.. yet.. (this might be controversial of me, but i dont think that evidence will ever exist).

Eta. Same goes for earless people trapped in ear-ful bodies... probably

There are differences in average female and male brains. There is no such thing as a male or female brain though, and most people cross over. Hell, black cab drivers have 'different' brains to the rest of the population simply because of their jobs. Brains are plastic, and there have never been any studies to actually prove this 'female brain in a male body' or anything. Ever. And I am fairly sure with the amount of cash thrown at this, if there was any proof, it would be shouted from the rooftops.

Transabled people have Body integrity identity disorder...which does show on brain scans. As...brains are plastic. So lived experiences will often show up. If a person convinces themselves a limb does not belong to them, the brain will adapt.

https://www.newscientist.com/article...n-brain-scans/

Trans is IMO, an extension of BIID. And similar to anorexia too (which also shows up in brain scans)


None of this has anything to do with the ethics of giving chemo drugs to children who don't need them though really. Which is the problem here. Adults can do whatever the hell they want to do to modify themselves, up to them.

I agree with no 'entirely male brain' but when a boy has a typical female brain, and when that can be seen on scanners, and when a parent would deny the child a drug that would stop that female turning into an adult male, its a bit.... wrong? Cruel? Dumb? Outdated? Especially if the child, or teen can verbally express that they know their gender, and this can be backed up.

I'll give your transabled link a read a little later on.. the main theory about that transracial woman is her link to her traumatic childhood.. details are hazy.. but I think her Uncle or father used to make her eat her own vomit, and researchers concluded that she may have wanted to identify as a race that were also poorly treated for that reason. I suppose it could be similar for transabled people? I dont think theres enough history on either topic for anyone to make conclusions.. unlike transgender, thats getting pretty solid now..

I think it's a good idea for when cases have been verified beyond a shadow of a doubt which they probably are for the most part since, like with all gender reassignment treatments, medical professionals will want to ensure that it's something the patient truly wants and is prepared for before they go ahead with it.

What a silly line of reasoning to discount medical advice on, like Kizzy said, you could say that to ignore pretty much every professional opinion of any field.