I've made my feelings clear in multiple posts :laugh: I do think they are basically the same thing, and the hang-ups with people trying to say that bisexual people wouldn't be as open-minded, or are caught up with very concrete notions of what gender is, is hugely offensive to everyone who's ever identified as bi in the past.
The whole adventure in becoming more open-minded and laissez-faire when it comes to sexuality and gender is just fraught with tarnishing older labels.
I really don't care if someone chooses to say they're pan instead of bi, I just make a mental note of "...okay so they're bi, then" lol.
Ammi
09-02-2021 11:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vicky.
(Post 10997222)
OK this is no longer an issue. I told him he was being a ridiculous twat and to chill out. He now is in a strop it seems, and has not replied :laugh: Its really weird behaviour for him though..I kind of maybe suspect too much internetting during lockdown really. Hopefully anyway.
..that’s the huge thing as well, I think...we all have so little balance and diversion of thoughts atm etc...so the ‘weird’ is probably as much the behaviour of a pandemic and the times we’re in...
Niamh.
09-02-2021 11:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ammi
(Post 10997233)
..that’s the huge thing as well, I think...we all have so little balance and diversion of thoughts atm etc...so the ‘weird’ is probably as much the behaviour of a pandemic and the times we’re in...
Gav actually said last night, I don't even have anything to look up online anymore :fist:
Ammi
09-02-2021 11:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Niamh.
(Post 10997242)
Gav actually said last night, I don't even have anything to look up online anymore :fist:
...many of my friends who are generally so balanced and calm and level etc...are just so filled with anxieties atm, sadly....and as parents/problem and worry helpers and solvers etc as well...it’s a time of feeling quite helpless in a way that’s so unfamiliar and which takes away so much self value, if that makes sense...so we start to get really inwards with our thinking processes, which doesn’t keep a healthy balance...
user104658
09-02-2021 11:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ammi
(Post 10997214)
...condescension and patronising never did make for an open or healthy debate, TS...I’m sure you know that...neither does arranging posts to suit and fit...
I'll defer to your superior tactics of paraphrasing, misquoting, misrepresenting, selective quoting and strawmanning then Ammi :idc:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ammi
(Post 10997178)
...gosh, it’s gone to ‘being their only personality trait’ quite quickly...that escalated
Ammi
09-02-2021 12:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toy Soldier
(Post 10997284)
I'll defer to your superior tactics of paraphrasing, misquoting, misrepresenting, selective quoting and strawmanning then Ammi :idc:
...I was going to apologise, actually...(...not that I had misquoted because I didn’t and wasn’t quoting you...)...but for the condescending and patronising comment because I feel it was wrong and only feeding into and adding to not a good/healthy open debate....but I think I’ll just leave things as they are and absorb your judgement and opinion of me, very enlightening...and possibly true actually at some points, I think we’re all guilty of many things and don’t realise that we’re doing those things ourselves...in this case and on this day though, you’re wrong and I accept your apology and thank you for realising and making it...
GoldHeart
09-02-2021 01:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cherie
(Post 10997139)
If that is the case why is Vicky's friend trying to invalidate her identity and trying to push a label she doesn't need or want on to her
Tolerance should be a two way street
Exactly this
Plus it's a personal thing . But I think people like Courtney Act/ Shane J are just gay despite giving themselves the label of "pansexual" .
I noticed aswell some people seem to come out as bi first before it being clear they're gay .
But bisexuality is still a thing , but I've noticed even when someone is openly bi people still see them as gay for some reason . I know some have a preference and might date mostly men and vice versa but they're still bi :shrug: .
And I think pan is still another term for bi ,but because bi purely meant 2 people wanted another term for dating trans people I guess .
And whether you're attracted to only feminine men or masculine women it doesn't change the sexuality , because a masculine woman is still a woman and a feminine man is still a man etc. It's just a preference .
Just like some straight men might only date tomboys but they're still straight .
Tom4784
09-02-2021 02:48 PM
People can identify as whatever they want, but I've always considered pansexuality to essentially fall under the same umbrella as bisexuality. A lot of defining characteristics of pansexuality aren't really something that's exclusive to pansexuality. Plus there's the whole issue with the idea that bisexual, gay and straight people can only operate on a binary of attraction and gender, which is bull****.
Tom4784
09-02-2021 02:54 PM
As for trans people, anyone of any sex can be attracted to a trans person, the idea that only pansexual people can be attracted to trans people is just offensive on multiple levels. It suggests that other sexualities are less tolerant, but it also makes a point of pointing out trans people as an oddity, a commodity.
A straight woman can be attracted to, and sleep with, a trans man. A gay person can do the same with a trans man, bisexuals do not discount people because they are trans. this is because these people will consider a trans person as the gender they are, not who they were.
Withano
09-02-2021 05:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vicky.
(Post 10997118)
Answers from actual bisexual/pansexual people really looked for here mainly tbh :p. Obviously anyone can reply. But can this stay...debatey rather than descending into arguments and that? Big ask I know..also massive TLDR coming up really.. :ninja2:
--
OK I know we have had a ****load of threads similar to this, and I was a bit apprehensive of starting another..but here we go. I have just had a huge mouthful over facebook off my best friend..at ****ing 3am (well, best friend from ages back, not seen him in forever now really) because I refuse to redefine myself as pansexual. As for me, its not the label I feel applies to me, at all. Have always been bisexual, since I knew what sexuality was!
He asked if I would in theory sleep with a transperson. I said yes, BUT, I cannot blanket answer that as it depends on a few factors, to do with the actual person. Same as I couldn't just say I would sleep with a woman/man with X characteristics...I guess a way to describe this would be how...you know when you have friends say 'I know someone just your type' and while physically they are correct...you are cold towards them? I could never say I would sleep with someone without actually knowing that person. Theres more than just the physical, maybe is a better way of putting it. Well my refusal to blanket say yes to any and all transpeople, was also proof of my rampant transphobia?!(likely caused by 'outdated notions of bisexuality'...!) But this could 'potentially be fine' if I would be more likely to be attracted, than not. Which again, I cannot blanket answer honestly. But settled for, there are some transpeople I have found attractive in the past yes...which chilled him somewhat.
He now says this means I am pan. Not bi. As bi people only would be happy with masculine men, or feminine women (which also lowkey comes off as...saying only feminine women are women, and only masculine men are men?!). BUT, this is not the case at all for me? OR any other bi people I know either? Masculine/feminine doesn't come into it at all for me? And if it did, it would be..a preference, rather than part of a sexuality? Like how I tend to go for dark haired people in general it seems..preference, not part of sexuality.
I find this a really weird argument. To me, I have always kind of laughed off pan as a 'woke' way of saying bisexual (so in sme ways, might deserve this challenge now!) but thought not much more of it..pan seemed the 'trendy' way of saying bi these days, mainly to younger people who have possibly been convinced that bi is a dirty word. But this seems to be getting more..mainstream, that if I say I am bisexual, that means I am writing off all feminine men, masculine women, androgynous, all in inbetween extreme female barbies, and GI joe males?!
So, IS bisexual a way of saying you are basically unwilling to consider anyone besides barbie dolls and GI joes these days?!
Does anyone else who is bisexual, get pressure to redefine themselves as pan?
Does anyone who defines themselves as pan, think pan is different to bisexuality...and if so, how?
Does anyone actually think that bisexual is a label that automatically discounts all trans people, or people who ignore/defy stereotypes?! Where pan is the 'inclusive' way of saying it?
I actively try to avoid a lot of this kind of thing as have came to see it as fringe arguing..but, given its now seemingy reaching my life, am guessing its not fringe arguing anymore..
Have for now just told him to **** right off with trying to find anything in my sexuality thats..anything but my sexuality tbh. And have also asked him if, given he is homosexual, does this go for him also, meaning, he would only be atracted to masculine men...and if not, why not? Half expecting to be called homophobic at this stage. But I feel I have a point there (also please tell me if I am out of order, as seeing red a little tbf. But I feel the logic is there, if using his own logic towards me? I don't really think he cannot be gay if he likes feminine men of course, thats nonsense!)? If bi means only masculine men/feminine women, and masculine women/androgynous people/feminine men/trans people pf either sex, would mean I have to use pansexual, then surely, a homosexual man..it must be about masculine guys. And if he likes any other guys, that means he is also pan?
Not one to argue sexuality stuff generally. But I feel I should go down with this ship now as...its annoyed the hell out of me.
Addition thats not really ontopic as such
Spoiler:
As even more of a joke, he has used Buck Angel (this tweet, and his subsequent replies) as an example of the transphobic rhetoric that surrounds the word bisexual?! https://twitter.com/BuckAngel/status...40767813656584
Like, thats the tweet that set him off on the topic. He appears to think Buck is a 'cis man' which is just ridiculous to me as Buck has as his pinned tweet, that he is transsexual, and also is quite a 'big name' really in trans discussions, that I have seen anyway?! And. Some of Bucks own replies, make it very clear he is transsexual also. So using him as an example of transphobia, is also quite odd. Put quite simply, the initial message to me had that link, and 'so you always were bisexual, have you been enlightneed yet or not?' which rubbed me up wrongly to start with in honesty..
Appreciate answers to random questions I have asked throughout my above waffle, but my main question is...do YOU think bisexual 'signals' transphobia? And basically, if yes, why?
Will also delete this if it turns into...sniping and that. Meant as an actual discussion, as it seems a topic that gets alluded to a lot, but not actually...done. And I don't realy see it as 'another trans/gender thread' given the focus is..well bisexuality? Can remove if it offends many though I guess, its just...my thought process throughout this whole thing with my mate really. Wanna know if I am actually being crappy, before I tell him to go **** himself with his biphobia...really!
I’d sooner argue that you’re trisexual and that your friend doesn’t have the best grasp of pansexuality.
I low-key find it weird that you can see how completely out of order it is for him to not let you identify as you wish, yet you regularly debate that others shouldn’t identify as they wish. :whistle:
Vicky.
09-02-2021 05:53 PM
Trisexual?!
No issue with people identifying as they wish either really. Though I guess in a way, my 'pan is basically bi' view was kinda biting me on the arse so get THAT now..karma. People can identify as whatever they want. Its when..identities overtake..biological reality, that theres a problem for me really. And even then, only in certain circumstances.
Thinking on it, I dont think it was the not letting me 'identify' as I wish either..more the lack of logic in the stuff he was saying. Am rather annoyed I did not just '**** off twat' him straight off though (funnily enough, was the first two replies in here that pulled me round on that..). Very annoying I automatically went on defence and explaining!
Oliver_W
09-02-2021 06:59 PM
Isn't trisexual literally just a joke? Like, "I'd try anything sexual once, har har har!"
