[QUOTE=MTVN;3819362]Well lets hypothetically say that the Burqa is banned on security grounds. The result would be increased suspicion of Muslims (as the banning of the veil implies that all Muslims who wear it are instantly terror suspects), they will feel offended and discriminated, and our relations with Islam would be even worse than they are now. That is what could increase terrorism here.

Who cares if is isnt strictly speaking a religious requirement. Neither is wearing a crucifix for Christians, neither is wearing the kippah for Jews, yet they are entitled to wear them, and Muslims are entitled to wear the burqa.[/QUOTE]



No they are not - not if they contrevene security regulations! And I refuse to be held hostage to Muslim sensibilities! The burka poses a risk to security - a crucifix does not - to compare the two is ludicrous!

Any reasonable Muslim who is not trying to gain preferential treatment will understand and respect the security issue - if they don't - that is their problem not ours - and raises doubts as to their motives!

I'm not saying that the rare cases should be ignored, men shouldnt be allowed to force someone to wear a burqa, but if we are dictating their clothing to them and telling them what they can and cannot wear then surely we are just like them? We may not completely understand their reasons for wearing them, but its very important for some people and I just dont think we have the right to tell them not to wear it. Only about 2000 people wear them (apparently) so they arent exactly a prominent figure in our society and I dont think it's fair to ban them just in case a woman isnt wearing it out of her own free will

I would agree that for some it has become something of a fashion statement though.

[QUOTE=WOMBAI;3819571]It isnt a ridiculous comparison. You were making the argument that it is not a religous requirement, I was simply making the point that that does not mean it is not very important to some people, in the same way that a crucifix or a kippah is despite that not being a requirement of their religion.

As I said, I can see the argument against allowing burqas in schools or in an airport, thats a different matter, but if a woman is just walking down the street in a burqa or going shopping in one then they should have the right to do so. They should not be banned from wearing it just because you personally consider anyone in a veil to be a possible terror threat.

I don't know what your culture is - but mine is traditionally British of which I am proud - and why shouldn't I be - there is nothing wrong with traditional British culture and Christianity - it built this country!

British culture and female oppression are not bull - only maybe to men from a non-traditional British culture - which suggests exactly the same kind of single-minded bias you imply about the views of others!

But if it is a matter of security, we can tell them if they can wear it or not. It goes beyond any sort of Culture thing, we can't stop them wearing it for the sake of 'culture', but I'd rather a few women wore the more modest hijab, than to burka to prevent another 7/7.

[QUOTE=MTVN;3819591]Exactly..."possible terror threat"....This issue is treated like its a matter of significant national importance...exactly how many breaches of security have occured due to burkha wearing jihadi's?? And how many times has it been an issue-muslims refusing to identify themselves where neccesary??...its all an excuse for a bit of muslim bashing and usually accompanies a load of vitriol and misinformation... and it all being a threat to "our" culture

[QUOTE=MTVN;3819591]

It is - in relation to security - and security is what the thread is about! Even my 13 year old can see that a full-facial burka poses a security threat in places such as schools, universities, airports, banks etc and should not be allowed! Any item of clothing that covers the face is not acceptable!

[QUOTE=WOMBAI;3819608]yeh add your minor valid point in with the rest of it, we know the tactic...answer my questions?....wombat desperately searches the net looking for evidence lol

What is this "traditional British culture that built this country", define it for me?

There's that joke about our culture that I remember which says how being British is about driving in a German car to an Irish pub for a Belgian beer, then travelling home, grabbing an Indian curry or a Turkish kebab on the way, to sit on Swedish furniture and watch American shows on a Japanese TV

I couldnt really tell you what my culture is, and I dont care, I'm not going to be defined by some percieved and misguided concept of "British culture" which doesnt even really exist

But is the threat really that big? Can we really justify banning what is a religious garment of huge importance to some based on an irrational paranoia of terrorism. Like Netto said, how many cases of attempted terrorism have there actually been where the suspect has used the burqa? A ban on it wouldnt have prevented 7/7, and it doesnt necessarily have to compromise our security. Where appropiate measures could be introduced, at airports, schools etc. but a complete ban wouldn't be fair imo

Yep, agree completely.

It's not exactly of 'huge importance'. It's to do with their culture not religion. In the Quran is says to dress modest, doesn't go into detail.

To them it is of huge importance though, it isn't necessarily due to their culture, a lot of British-born Muslims will wear one, Muslims whos families have lived here for decades.

We're sorta going off topic, cos I'm pretty sure the burka hasn't been worn here for decades. Like you agreed with me earlier, it has become some what of a fashion statement.

No I'm saying that some of the people who wear it have had their families living here for decades, they're British born so it isnt so much a case of their culture enforcing it on them.

For some it is a fashion statement I think, for others it's considered an important peice of religious clothing, I dont understand why they want to wear it but I respect their right to do so.

Its true the Taliban did force women to wear it, but more the chadri version, with a grill netting over the eyes. But the history of veiling and the burka pre-dates the Taliban.

In a way it has, but then doesnt that sort of remove the oppression argument.

Incidentally:

Veiling predates Islam by centuries. Assyrian kings codified veiling laws around 1200 B.C., but veils were not commonly worn until around the 10th century A.D. They were considered a mark of wealth and status. The burka first appeared in the 19th century.

Read more: History of the Burka | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/facts_6167699_hi...#ixzz114o2pJca

I don't need to explain it - British culture is obvious to most Brits - read some history books! Every country has its culture and identity - despite some trying to dismiss and destroy traditional British culture - usually for their own ends!

haha...whos trying to destroy it and to what ends? Lets face it cultures evolve, change, influence each other over time, its life mate....noones trying to destroy your culture

Who cares if they would feel offended because we get our priorities right and put security before religious sensibilities! And are you seriously suggesting we bow down to the threat of terrorism by allowing such religious beliefs to override security issues - out of fear of reprisals! What a load of ****e! Talk about allowing terroists to dictate through fear and intimidation!

Judging by your obvious distain for all that is traditionally British - I assume you are not of British descent! :sleep:

Culture and tradition are what bind people together, give them a sense of pride and loyalty to their country and to their fellow citizens. Britain has a long and varied culture which has been contributed to by generations of immigrants who have come to this country, integrated and enriched our traditions and way of life as their cultures have been assimilated into ours. That does not mean the host nation should be expected to have their way of life superseded by cultures that evolved in different countries under different circumstances and different histories.

Many of the dissenters on this forum are bleating on about "it's their culture" as if that is sufficient reason for the host culture to submit. I have still had not a single FM comment on the cultural activities of some of the immigrants who come here which are not only immoral, but illegal.

How about honour killings, quite common in many middle eastern and asian cultures?
How about underage sex and marriage which we call paedophilia over here? Girls of 11 and 12 are married off in a lot of cultures.
How about polygamy? How about forced arranged marriages?
How about Sati (widow burning)? How about the eating of animals we consider domestic pets here?
In many foreign cultures, the "ownership" of females by their male relatives (modern day slavery?)
How about stoning women to death for adultery, while the man goes scot free?
How about muslim men being allowed to divorce their wives by simply saying "I divorce thee" (the woman has no such right).

In fact how about all of Sharia Law? Under Sharia Law women are prohibited from pursuing certain careers and occupations and are supposed to stay at home doing the housekeeping and tending the kids. No doubt the chauvinists and sexists on this forum see no problem with such primitive and unenlightened practises becoming part of our mainstream culture, decades after they have been all but eradicated.


According to some FMs' reasoning we are supposed to allow all immigrants the right to pursue their culture and traditions, even if they are at odds with our social and legal norms and practices. Is there anyone on here prepared to defend the indigeneous population's right to have OUR culture and traditions paramount as they have always been. Britain has always assimilated immigrant culture and tradition, which in turn has enriched ours, but NEVER at the expense of our national safety, security, morality, ethics or laws.

The wearing of the Burkha in public buildings, public transport and anywhere where the identification of the wearer should be apparent and obvious, should be banned forthwith - it is NOT a religious requirement, and is NOT even a cultural requirement within the home countries of the women who wear them, it is a garment of CHOICE, imposed by some men on their subjugated and demeaned women. The argument that we should all be allowed to wear what we want in public is ridiculous - try walking down the high street with nothing but your shoes on and see how far you get - yet nudity is a cultural norm in some countries.

I have no disdain for all that is British, Im of British descent and proud of our rich cultural heritage but I dont feel threatened by other cultural influences

You seem to want to concentrate on the problems with other cultures ALL the time...funny that..."at the expense of our national safety, security, morality, ethics or laws"? pleeease look out yer window and get your head out the Daily Mail, your being a tad irrational...like we condone any of the things your talking about JeeZ

Why not explain, what is it about our culture that means that the burqa is out of place? Why is it that, in a 21st century, secular and mulitcultural society, our so-called "culture" dictates that a woman cannot wear a religious garment out of her own free will?


Wow, that's ironic! You seriously think that allowing someone to wear the burqa is "allowing terrorists to dictate through fear and intimidation"?! It is banning the burqa that shows a country is being dictated by fear of terrorism if we are so paranoid that we instantly suspect anyone covering their face is a suicide bomber.

As I said, burqa wearers are a tiny minority within a minority, stop getting so worked up over something that is hardly a prominent figure in society :bored:

They do seem few and far between - probably because they just get shouted down with accusations of racism! More intimidation tactics!

Britain is a strong, powerful and economically successful country with its own distinctive culture and way of life - which seems to evoke a form of envy and jealousy in some! Just because Britain has been a welcoming country and encouraged the assimilation and integration of different cultures into its society, does not mean it has lost its own unique culture and identity!

I am sick of these rather insidious attempts by some to belittle Britain, its history, culture etc and their constant attempts to 'convince' us that Britain is no longer Britain as we know it - but just some hugh melting-pot of diversity with no identity of its own! Rubbish!

The fact that you equate wearing a burqa with nonour killings, stoning a woman and paedophillia is ridiculous. You fail to see the point:

Honour killings, stoning etc. would not be allowed in this country because they are oppressive, abhorrent and out of place in a 21st century, tolerant society

Wearing a burqa is none of the above. Allowing the burqa to be worn is not pandering to sharia law, it's nothing to do with that. I am simply acknowledging that in our secular and multicultural country then if someone feels necessary to wear a religious garment that covers their face then they have every right to do so, and we should not be dictating to them a certain clothing style.

You said it yourself, it is a garment of choice, that some woman feel is hugely important to their religion, and freedom of choice should be allowed. It may not technincally be a religious requirement but it is considered to be of huge importance to both their religion and often their culture by the people who wear it, and we should respect that instead of crying "terrorist" everytime you see somebody whos face is covered.

You do keep missing the point don't you! You are the one that said we should allow Muslim women to wear a burka, despite it posing a security risk - because it might damage relations and encourage more terrorist attacks! That is bowing down to intimidation! Simples! :nono:

Maybe you should stop getting so worked up and seeing every realistic attempt to keep our citizens safe as some some of attack on Muslims! It is Muslims that have a tendency to be oversensitive about things - and overreact - not us! :sleep:

Have you conveniently forgotten 9/11, 7/7 and the recent prevention by our security services of further planned attacks! These risks are very real - and noone should be allowed to wear clothing that hides their identity in public.

It isn't just national security either! In schools, colleges and universities - identity is an issue as far as attendance and cheating are concerned! What about exams - we can't have people sitting exams in burkas - it would leave the system wide open to abuse!

What exactly are we losing? Whos belittling anything?

Thats it keep ignoring any rational argument and concentrate on the irrational, keep it up wombat lol

Clearly isn't me doing that! :sleep: Sticks and stones dear - playground stuff!

I know you are but what are you, wondered when that tactic would rear its head...come on Wombat, what are we losing? Whos Belittling us?

The simpler and more effective solution is to simply start by banning any and all new Muslim immigrants who practice or agree with 'Sharia' laws.

One politician in the US (and I think a parallel in the UK) did write something up and the best I can recall the idea was simply along those lines of a pledge, declaration that everyone makes entering the UK:
"I promise to obey the laws of the UK etc etc... under her majesty etc.."
Okay.
But this is really a sort of amendment and just asks if the would-be immigrant/visitor considers 'shariah' the higher law?
If they say yes then they are turned away.

Now for people living here that agree with sharia being the higher law they would follow (which admits they do not agree to follow UK laws)?
Jail?
Expulsion?

Well you get the idea and it isn't really that complicated and we already do this sort of things anyways. It really just clarifies and included the whole Islam shariah laws sort of thing.

I wouldn't say this prevents leaders, speakers etc. maybe but diplomats and representatives would still be able to visit for whatever business or if captured and put on trial and along those lines.

This is just way more sensible than all this little petty adjustments going on all over the place.

The burka has been used by terrorists on several occasions - and does, without doubt, pose a security threat - you can't deny it!

http://frontpagemag.com/2010/04/22/the-burqa-bomb/

Oh yes, that has definitely happened with Muslims murdering innocent people or other rival Muslims.
Interestingly, I recall some Jews used this to assassinate some Muslim murderers. Does anyone remember that? I don't think it was in 'Munich' but maybe i saw it on a documentary.

But yeah, there are countries in the Arab world where women are (by law) to wear those.
So here it can be a similar thing. Like their own countries. where they had to wear them. Except here you are not allowed to wear the veil. It is a law. Same idea.
Not for religious law enforcement but in this case so Muslims can't murder people as easily.

[QUOTE=NettoSuperstar!;3820925]I know you are but what are you, wondered when that tactic would rear its head...come on Wombat, what are we losing? Whos Belittling us?[/QUOTE]

What is this "traditional British culture that built this country", define it for me?

There's that joke about our culture that I remember which says how being British is about driving in a German car to an Irish pub for a Belgian beer, then travelling home, grabbing an Indian curry or a Turkish kebab on the way, to sit on Swedish furniture and watch American shows on a Japanese TV

A pretty good example by MTVN!

[QUOTE=WOMBAI;3820933]Whats your problem? Do you feel belittled by that? What have you lost exactly?

Ahahaha bet you've been scouring for that day and night, very balanced I must say....well thats it lets ban it, theyve done it in pakistan, they'll do it here, its only inevitable, MTVN is rite we're pandering to terrorists, hysterics and right wing nuts

Took me all of two mins! :joker:

No - I think we are NOT pandering to terrorists, hysterics and religious nuts! And that doesn't include the left wing nuts!

[QUOTE=NettoSuperstar!;3820936]Nothing - that is my point! Britain has not lost its own culture and identity - despite suggestions to the contrary - and neither will it!

Sorry I forgot you are very familiar with anti muslim sites. Yes Wombai we are because theyre really isnt a major issue with a few 1000 women in this country wearing burqua's and identification, theyre just isnt, and to enforce an outright ban is a ludicrous overreaction and very very Un British

[QUOTE=WOMBAI;3820946]hahaha so what are you ****ing going on about?

No, I'm not saying thats the reason it should be banned, worse relations with Islam and a possible increased terror threat could be unintended consequences of banning it. The reason I'm saying it should be allowed is because it simply is not our right to dictate clothing style and tell someone they cannot wear a religious garment because of an irrational fear and paranoia of terrorism, or because "it isn't our culture".

That's belittling?? Why? I asked a genuine question and then told a well-known joke that is true to be honest.

Just 2 nights ago I went to see The Town, an American film at Showcase, an American cinema, and then I went to Chiquito, a Mexican restaurant before we drove home in a Toyota, a Japenese car.

Exactly, nail on the head.