I'm not saying that in fact I've repeated that it doesn't apply to everyone so I'm not generalising. I know some very hard working families that I absolutely think deserve extra help and they struggle to get a break in life sometimes. But I also know (and actually quite a lot) of people who refuse to do anything to try and change their situation because it would affect their entitlements (thats their description - entitled!!) And they appear to have much more than I do - so can you blame me. I don't think anyone entitled. It may be more complicated and expensive but means testing is a fairer way and you cant always just take the easiest route. I wouldn't deny that most people should have some material possessions but no one needs them more than someone else and (and I am only talking about people on benefits who appear to have every gadget going) how am I supposed to feel when I cant afford these things and I work and pay my taxes and always have. I cant afford lots of luxories yet am being told I'm better off. Don't forget the 44k plus also gets nearly 50% of their income taken away in tax and insurance before they start. And they dont get Family Credits that other do. Like I said things have to BE SEEN to be fair. There are people with low incomes that absolutely deserve to get more and there are people with higher incomes who I think deserve it too. And if they just put it away for their kide Uni fees I'm fine with that too because thats our future.

They should not be complaining. It is A LOT of money to earn that per year. I know there are people out there.. who probably do work long long hours and get very stressed and deserve the amount of money they are getting but things need to change. The richer and getting richer. The poor are getting poorer :( It needs to be balanced out a bit!

If you can't afford to have more than 2 kids then you shouldn't have them. Why the f uck do I have to work and pay for other people's sprogs?? Disgusting.

I do feel sorry for people who genuinely out of a job though and are desperately looking for another one. I have been in that position too! Once you get a job.. you feel ever so grateful! :)

I know people who earn a lot of money and are stupid with their money.. they have to get the latest this.. the latest "designer gear" this that and the other.. people having loans on bloody sofa's!! If you can't afford something.. you should not have it alltogether!!!!

The government need to sort out the anomaly of a two parent working family where mum and dad earn, say £40,000 per year each - total income £80,000 and are still entitled to receive child benefit,and a one parent family earning £45,000 and no child benefit. If they're going to do this it needs to be done fairly.

Any idiot knows it was the banks that got us into this mess, if anything Labour are to blame for adopting Tory policy and allowing the financial sector to go unregulated...The main problem with the child benefit cuts is a family earning over 80 K will still be entitled to it but a family earning 44 k will lose out....I wouldnt trust Osbourne to do my 6 year olds maths homework

Spin it however you want, any IDIOT knows it was LABOUR that left this country in the worst economic mess it has ever been in - THEY were the ones in charge for 13 years so why try to apportion blame elsewhere? Labour couldn't organise a piss up at a brewery.

As regards child benefit it should be means tested and only the very poorest families should receive it, I would say with an income under £30k, and then only for the first two to stop feckless parents having kids they can't afford to look after. All child benefits should be scrapped for economic migrant's children NOT living in the UK. At least this government is making a start, but they need to implement much more savage cuts, especially in the bloated public sector.

It's time to pay the piper after 13 years of Labour profligacy.

People should have to pay taxes to the government for having kids, not getting tax BREAKS for having kids. This is a step in the right direction.

For every child you have, you should be forced to pay exponentially more taxes, after all how much of our tax dollars/pounds go towards schools and education? How much of our tax money is spend on roads, hospitals etc. It's the people having more kids that puts more people on the roads, schools, hospitals.

People having kids should pay more tax because they are putting more burden on the system.

It's the childless people that should get the tax breaks, we are the ones being responsible.

Such sense - I'll vote for you Angus 58 - the banks got us into it did they - it was Labour Governmet who bailed the banks out and did they specify where the cash had to go to NO they effing didnt so what did the banks do - they gave it to the staff in bonuses that was our taxes and Labour just handed it over without any conditions then tried to say it was amoral when millions of pounds where put into Cheif executives pockets - Labour gave it to them - MORONS

They'd save a lot of money by axing child tax credits, people solely on benefits can even claim tax credits and they don't work!! the benefits system is so messed up

In this day and age with a burgeoning population we should not be encouraging people to have more children by paying them for it. Some feckless parents see having kids and living off benefits as a career choice these days. What's more councils shove them to the top of the housing queue. So blame the system that encourages irresponsibility, fecklessness and idleness.

What staggers me is that you still get people defending the indefensible - a socialist government in power for 13 years who in fact created MORE poverty by their reckless spending and misdirection of funding to greedy banks. Their manifesto was a work of complete fiction and they have merrily led this country to the brink of disaster. They weren't too shy about dipping their hands in the till themselves either were they?

Labour has encouraged a cradle to the grave welfare system that rewards the bone idle, the scroungers and the scammers whilst those in real need are forced to jump through hoops to get any help. Some people see living off benefits as a right, even though they have never paid a penny into the system or done a day's work in their lives.

What choice does the new Government have but to rein in spending and implement savage cuts?

Labour may have been in charge but its de regulation and unfettered greed (Thatchers baby) that got us in this mess and ordinary hard working people that are picking up the tab! Bloated public sector? you have obviousley never worked for the public sector have u.

And families on 30k shouldnt have to pay for this mess either, £30k is **** all for a family living in London or other areas down south when they have ever increasing housing costs/childcare costs etc

the utter savagery of these cuts is ideological and less about paying off the deficit and tax evaders and bankers need to be paying a higher share

oh lets all follow that logic and find ourselves old and alone with noone to support us, without children our future is ****ed

what a sad life you must live if the most meaningful thing you ever did was have sex and dumped out a child from yur crotch.

...and we wonder why society is in decline with attitudes like this?

having children has nothing to do with how alone you feel. if you rely on yur children to not feel alone, i feel sorry for your children. you sound very needy and dependant.

Well I know plenty of people who do just fine on far less than £30,000 AND they don't go down the social with their hands out, AND they limit their families to the amount of kids they can afford to have so what bloody planet do you live on if you think £30k is **** all? I also live practically on top of Lewisham, probably one of the ****tiest boroughs in London, so don't give me a load of BS about how tough it is to live in London compared to elsewhere. London wages are proportionately higher for the same job done elsewhere in the country, it's called London Weighting. As for never having worked in the public sector, you know nothing about me whatsoever. I worked as a civil servant at the Home Office for 9 years so keep your useless assumptions to yourself. And public sector workers have no more right than those in the private sector to wage increases, pensions, bonuses etc, never mind their jobs. Why should their jobs and wages be protected over and above those working in the private sector?

As regards the bankers - well it was the LABOUR party that chucked everyone's hard earned cash at them wasn't it? Oh, and plenty of Labour voters and Labour MPs alike displayed plenty of "unfettered greed" and took full advantage to enhance their own lifestyles. Hypocrites? Much.

Yet here you are, still trying to shift the blame for the useless and incompetent arseholes finally kicked out of power after THIRTEEN long years, during which they achieved virtually nothing except to leave us all in the ****. Or is that the signature whinge of every socialist? That it's always someone else's fault.

As for the "utter savagery of the cuts" - they don't go nearly far enough IMO, and that's from someone whose income is far, far less than £30k a year!

How sad to have children with the intention that in your old age you expect them to support you and keep you company. Children are not possessions or insurance policies for old age. If you have worked hard all your life you should have provided for your own old age and not expect your kids to look after you. Both mine have enough on their plates as it is without having to support me as well! I want them to get on and live their own lives without having to worry about me!

Use your brain Im not talking about me as an individual Im talking about society, do you understand how a society works?...no well you've got Thatcher to thanks for that...everyman for himself.... If we start penalising families and we all stopped having kids this country would go to the dogs when we're all old

....as I said Labour adopted Tory policy there mate and that was a costly mistake, Thatcher was right New Labour was the best thing she ever did and if you cant see that, thats your problem....Im not shifting the blame Im just pointing out where it all started and you still seem to think its fair to make ordinary hard working families suffer when it wasnt their doing. £30k is **** all for a family in London I dont care what you say, why should hard working Dr's Nurses Teachers Police Firemen (people who save lives and protect you) not have a decent standard of living while bankers are still getting massive bonuses and STILL taking the same risks as they always were?

Miss NettoAsdaWalmart Star

Even the Guardian polls support these Cuts.

Wake Up

Im not talking about me as an individual Im talking about the importance of children and families as a whole for society...if you cant see that your a bit limited upstairs

"without children our future is ****ed "


You need to watch the DVD or BluRay
Surrogates starring Bruce Willis.

Life In The Fast Lane.

I really couldnt care less how many people have swallowed the bull****e Arista

You need a Full Body Massage

get out of it man...you can all work like bitches for a pittance so bankers can carry on as per and swallow it, me Im a bit pissed off

Well if you are saying you're unable to articulate your meaning in a lucid way that can be understood by others that is YOUR problem, not mine. However, your meaning was quite clear, so your backtracking is pretty pathetic and transparent. Having read other posts of yours on other threads it's obvious to me that I'm not the one who's a few slices short of a loaf.:rolleyes:

And who has said anything against the importance of children and families? - it's you that needs to read posts properly before mouthing off. If people want more than a couple of kids, let THEM pay for their own offspring and not expect others to. The children of feckless workshy benefit scroungers are unlikely to learn anything from their parents other than how to milk the system. Hardly an asset to the country.

I'm not your mate, nor ever likely to be with someone with such strange views. Nobody put a gun to Labour's metaphorical head and insisted they adopt "tory" policies. Once again you are making excuses and trying to shift the blame for Labour's OWN policies and decisions. Typical socialist deflection tactics. And as for £30k not being enough for a family to live on, once again I will ask you, what planet are you on? £30k would be riches to my son and his family who have to live in rented accommodation because they cannot get on the housing ladder. The workers you mention get subsidised housing don't they, just one of the perks eh?

There are just as many HARDWORKING people in the private sector, many of whom earn a lot less than £30k. Oh, and I'm supposed to be grateful to the workers you mention who CHOSE their professions and are equally free to CHOOSE to leave them any time they like if they don't like the pay and conditions - but they won't will they because they're bloody well paid compared to some in the private sector who are just as HARDWORKING and also have families to support. And that's coming from someone whose mother was a nurse, and whose ex husband was a fire officer. No-one is MORE entitled to a good standard of living just because they work in those professions. What you are preaching is job discrimination - pretty damn hypocritical from a socialist.

I blame Labour's ridiculous "lets end child poverty" scheme.

The irony

A government that pledges to end child poverty at ALL costs (personal responsibility, empowering people to help themselves, children being able to get brought up by good role models, little things like that) and they leave office with social mobility in Britain considerably worse than it was 13 years prior.

Spot on - but still some will attempt to defend the indefensible. At last this government have said what we all think - people have no right to carry on breeding in the expectation that other people will pay for their offspring. There's a case in the papers today of a jobless couple with 10 kids raking in £95,000 nett in benefits and living in a luxury house courtesy of the taxpayer. It's bloody outrageous.

Ok let me break it down nice and simple for you, Im so sorry factual information is so baffling and strange to you

1. We're not talking about benefit cheats we're talking about hard working people bringing up the next generation and it being a travesty attacking hard working parents for *peanuts (*peanuts being the revenue generated from your suggestion) when there are billions of pounds lost in tax evasion every year and the richest 10% have got wealthier during the recession and so called period of austerity

2. If that doesnt make you angry theres something wrong with you

3. The so called bloated public sector is being made a scapegoat (along with benefit cheats) to deflect attention away from the real issues. Labours spending barely changed and was sometimes lower than the last Tory govts (aside from a cash injection for crumbling schools and hospitals etc)

4. noones saying the public sector shouldnt take some of the burden but the scale of the cuts on the table is alarming you might want to look into that

5. the lowest paid (public and private sector) without access to affordable housing (still waiting on that one) are living in poverty and thats a travesty. subsidized housing? what planet are you on? Oh and the people that go into nursing, teaching etc value people over money and are not responsible for the state of the lowest paid in the private sector.

6. If you think for one second it would have been different on a Tory watch your quite deluded

I can't have a serious debate with someone who thinks £30k a year is peanuts. I and plenty of people I know live on far less, AND in London, AND doing long hours, AND don't expect bloody handouts because they CHOSE to have kids. How dare you sneer at such a wage. You really are living in cloud cuckoo land. I have two sons both in full time employment and one supporting a family of four without handouts, and he is on nowhere near £30k.
You need to get your head out of your arse and join the real world where HARDWORKING people work rather than scrounge and make sensible choices about whether or not they can afford to have children.

So take your elitist opinions and shove them where the sun don't shine.

As for your last point, you can only speculate my dear, so you're the deluded one, going on about what might have been, instead of what actually happened. A bit hypocritical of you isn't it if you want to discuss actual FACTS. You lose the argument already, because here you are whingeing about necessary cuts in public spending which at least the TORIES are tackling. What did you expect after that socialist shower of useless incompetents mortgaging this country for the foreseeable future because of their profligacy? Labour are guilty in the first degree for encouraging feckless, lazy, bone idle benefit scroungers, to the extent that those in genuine need get pushed to the back of the queue, and are forced to jump through hoops to get their entitlements, because they are honest and don't know how to play the system. Why should pensioners who have worked and contributed to the system all their lives be living in poverty whilst layabouts who've never had a job have loads of kids they can't afford to keep themselves? I can't see their offspring being the saviours of this country when they grow up either:rolleyes:

Your so called "facts" are laughable - lifted straight from the Labour Book entitled "Do as I say, Not what I do". Lucky you, to be on a salary of over £30k - if you can't manage on that there's something wrong with YOU.

Let's hope the government keeps the cuts coming and end this dependancy culture once and for all.

Agree on all points Angus has made,why do so many people think this country owes them a living,far too many lazy buggars scrounging off the state,far too many ministers helping themselves to the coffers and banks who gorge on money handed to them like it's going out of fashion and paying all this ?is the poor sods who can actually bother to get up and work and pay taxes,Good for Mr Cameron,at last a PM who is doing something that the lazy sods will hate.!!

What I can't get my head round is that there are so many people (voters) out there who still believe that Labour did a great job and lay blame anywhere else other than where it lies. Labour is a benefit government and always has been. Everytime they are voted in they leave the country in huge debt. The elderly who have worked hard their whole lives, have in some cases fought for their country are left to rot by the country they fought for. People who find themselves alone to raise their families because of the death of a partner or being abandoned find it difficult to claim anything to get them back on their feet while others who choose not to work have higher incomes handed out to them than the rest of us can earn by working. The Labour government have made sure people are so comfortable on benefits and have catered for their every need, they've taken away any incentive for them to work. Labour have manipulated unemployment figures by taking on extra government employees on 'fixed term' contracts to lower the figures - contracts which are due to end in March 2011 so it ties in nicely with their loss of power - and they've been employed in the Department of Work and Pensions to cope with the extra work involved in the increased benefits they pay out. There is less money invested in education and healthcare than ever. There is less money in pensions for people who have worked hard their entire lives. My partner and I have been unemployed in the past and thank god we have survived these bad times with the help of our families. We have never claimed a benefit of any kind in our lives, even when we were entitled because I've always felt there are worse off people who need it more. And there are, but they are not the ones the Labour favour.
I cannot believe there are people out there who believe otherwise.

On 'This Morning' right now some pathetic couple with 7 children, living on benefits. She say's its her 'right' as a woman to have children (but not her right to pay for them apparently) He says he can't get a job that he would 'like' doing so he wont bother coming off benefits but he might think about it if he found a job he would enjoy. She says she'll have 20 children if she wants its her right. What *******ing planet - have them castrated - These 'adults' are children and Labour is their parent!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Glad I missed that or I would probably have thrown something at the television:mad: This is the sort of mindset that Labour has encouraged.

I'm done debating with idiots still apportioning blame everywhere except where it belongs. LABOUR had THIRTEEN years in power, so why are people still making excuses for this morally bereft government, who cynically "imported" voters - which unfortunately for them didn't work for them this time did it?

My sons will probably never be able to get on the housing ladder, so my heart isn't bleeding for a lot of people in the public sector cushioned from the realities the rest of us have to cope with. If they don't like it, let them try finding work in the private sector. It's disgusting that 80% of new jobs created whilst Labour were in power have gone to immigrants. So much for working hard ALL MY LIFE and paying my taxes and national insurance contributions, bringing up my sons, as a single parent for many years, without claiming handouts, and instilling in them a sense of responsibility and independence, only to find that they are the ones shoved to the back of the queue whilst newcomers to this country muscle their way to the front.

Silly me, I should have just let them run wild, impregnate little slags, and allow other people to pick up the bill for their fecklessness.:rolleyes:

I agree I had already come to the conclusion that 'being a good role model' is a thing of the past. My mum used to tell me 'cheats don't prosper' - we can't say that to our kids because all around them its quite obvious they do. Hard work, conscientiosness, honesty - all a thing of the past. Scams and scroungers - our future? So sad but so true. However I'm proud of my kids and that they work and pay taxes and are self sufficient for what thats worth these days

I saw that. Bet it made a lot of people very angry. The guy seemed ok but the woman had a really warped sense of reality. God knows what her kids are like.

Again you keep going back to lazy scroungers (which isnt everyone on benefits and also Labour didnt introduce the welfare state in 1997 lol) ...we are NOT talking about that here, we are talking about HONEST WORKING CONTRIBUTING people.

Im sorry but your anecdotal evidence isnt universally applicable, its not a black and white world and whilst many families on 30 k will be comfortable, with the current lack of affordable housing and high childcare costs some wont easliy afford a drop. lets face it 30 k is the combined income of two parents on an unskilled/semi skilled wage (eg/ a support worker and a binman...hardly middle class)...or a single parent paying high rent charges and childcare costs may struggle...particularly those that have to commute a distance to work. claiming child support when you are a contributing member of society is not scrounging, it is what we pay our taxes for, that and a decent education for our kids, a decent healthcare system, police protection etc etc...

http://england.shelter.org.uk/profes...spects_of_life

And the main point is cutting vital services and support for the ordinary working people of Britain whilst ignoring the huges loss in govt income from tax avoidance and the fact that the financial sector have paid little consequence for their actions and are free to carry on as before is a CRIME. And they might want to tackle the disproportionate gap between the highest earners and lowest in the private sector too

http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Documents/PCSTaxGap.pdf

Labours public spending record....hardly any difference from the previous Tory govt (prior to the global finacial crisis and the drop in tax revenue since that time)

http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/uk...ebt_chart.html

You are a totally deluded labour apologist who will not accept that 13 years of mismanagement and incompetence has led us once again to a precipice from which the incoming government are left to try and pull us back. No doubt you also support strike action too that always affects the ordinary HARDWORKING folk in this country. Personally, I hope the government fight the selfish and greedy unions, since no one sector of the workforce in this country should be able to hold the rest of us to ransom. I have no time for avaricious union bosses encouraging (one would even say forcing) members to strike to cause the maximum disruption and upset for the rest of us, out of some selfish determination to preserve jobs and privileges for their own, with no thought as to who will pick up the tab. I have always loathed and detested trade unions and I can still remember the Callaghan government when the unions practically ruined this country. Let's hope this government take them on and defeat them.

And don't try and twist my words - both my sons are HARDWORKING and in FULL TIME EMPLOYMENT, one of whom supports a family of 4, and both are on a lot less than £30k. Neither of them were brought up to think the world OWES them a living. They contribute to society and pay their taxes so what the hell are you on about?

Furthermore, Labour HAS encouraged the workshy, feckless, scrounging layabouts we see all about us with their hordes of kids that other people pay for, so don't deny it. Cut their benefits and force them to take any job and CONTRIBUTE instead of sitting on their fat arses and expecting others to keep them. You seem to think the world owes everybody a living! Well it doesn't. These are hard times and people should be glad they've even got a job these days. It's about time that welfare benefits were reined in for all but the truly needy, not seen as a lifestyle choice for lazy gits.

It's pointless trying to debate with a dyed in the wool socialist who puts the blame everywhere but where it deserves to be, and what's more discriminates in favour of those working in the public sector as if they are somehow MORE important than the rest of us.

Oh, and what about all the above issues you mention that need addressing? Ask yourself why Labour, who had THIRTEEN long years in power, DID NOTHING, and in fact left us in a worse state, yet here you are still defending them and their appalling record. This present government's immediate concerns is to cut spending and most normal, sensible, reasonable people with even a basic grasp of economics and housekeeping know that it has to be done.

I can't be arsed to respond to any more of your posts - I've made my position clear, and we will never agree in a million years.

It's the government's right to change the law. Cut the scroungers off their benefits and see what happens then ;)

Then they should have their children taken away if they can't feed or shelter them properly!

Disgusting woman!