Listen to yourself! You are guilty of the same practices which you are critising others on here for.

Why do you believe that there were no tapes? The tapes did exist - numerous credible witnesses heard them, and if they never existed, then why were they seized by the Secret service and why did Otash lodge a law suite in 1966 to have them returned?

What are your sources for stating your theories with such conviction? Or should I be asking where do you keep your Time machine?

I personally welcome any debate on here but please don't attempt to belittle other people because they don't agree with you, and please don't respond to a post by merely ridiculing that post and reiterating your own viewpoints without also answering the original points with valid counterpoints supported by rational reasons for those counterpoints.

I'm not doing your friend's research for her. Tell her to Google Nembutal.

Again - why do you find it necessary to insist on proof from any Forum member who make statements which you take exception to, whilst simultaneously, you make statements which you present as gospel without yourself proffering any evidence to substantiate such statements?

What are your sources which justify your stance that you are 'right' and everyone else is wrong?

I believe Marilyn was murdered by Greenson at the behest of Robert Kennedy. I believe as much because of the years of research I myself have carried out, but I am not a bigot or an inflexible idiot, and I am here to be persuaded that my belief is wrong, but it is with logical argument supported by evidence that I will be convinced - not sweeping statements passed off as 'fact' without such evidence or substantive grounds. I also do not need to be patronised, and neither do my very intelligent and knowledgeable friends on here.

:joker::joker:

Oh Lord Marsh.

Don't diss my friend. :fist:

Hmm i wasn't trying to belittle anyone it's how i come across when i write on these type of forums, i have not said anything to insult anyone i'm not sure why you are getting so defensive? i made my points but you seem to have taken it out of context has me trying to say that i'm right and everyone is wrong, No that is not what i was doing...i just wanted to know why people are so easily swayed with believing these FACTS that do not show any real evidence to the contrary? you say that there were actual tapes of Marilyn's house being bugged so where are these tapes now... and who are these people saying that they had actually heard them, it seems odd that anyone can make these claims without showing any real evidence to back up their claims, and why would you believe those people if you had not heard the evidence for yourself?

Lets see, you must of read several murder theories provided by Clemmons who had actually changed his official eye witness statement on that death report? see i think it's very important to not get wrapped up in all these conspiracy books and read from the official police report stated in 1962, where do you see any of Clemmons evidence suggesting Marilyn's body had been moved and a missing glass or Mrs Murray washing bed sheets in that 1962 report? all these details had suddenly changed in a book written by murder theorist Robert Slatzer in the 1970's when he had contacted Clemmons, Slatzer who is a notorious liar a man who confessed that he was once married to Marilyn in 1952, this was certainly Not true which had been debunked by many of Marilyn's close friends?

I really think you have been HAD on why Clemmons had changed his official police testimony, this officer had actually been fired from the Police department on grounds of ill practices that went against all police rules, he then decides to give a tell all story to Robert Slatzer about missing evidence of Marilyn's body being moved and the mysterious bed sheets being washed? and all this right in front of other police officers at the scene who had Not even witness any of this going on?...i mean come on!!! it's all lies i'm afraid.

Source please.

I think you need to show your source's that those tapes at Marilyn's house did actual exist...and no need for you to be so defensive as you can not prove what you say is right?

Oh that's okay, because you wont be able to find anything relating to enema's being fashionable in the 1960's, so there goes your theory?

There were several witnesses who had heard these tapes on the Channel 5 documentary which you purport to have studied. How did you miss them? Ray Strait listened to over 11 hours of these tapes.

Fred Otash secreted the tapes but upon his death the Secret Service stripped all three properties which Otash owned and the tapes - along with other documents - disappeared never to be seen again. At the same time, a filing cabinet containing Otash's most sensitive material was taken from his apartment by his lawyer and the contents of that too was never seen again.

The evidence from varied sources that these tapes existed is compelling, which is one of the reasons why I personally believe that they existed. Fred Otash's 1966 law suite to have them returned is conclusive proof.

Because they existed, and because there is also compelling evidence that Otash did bug Marilyn's house (as he bugged Rock Hudson's and others) and because the witnesses who claim to have heard the tapes come across as honest and very credible, and because their links to Otash and Marilyn are proven, then I also believe what they say regarding the contents of the tapes.

Again Mazz - what source do you rely on for you not to believe all this very credible evidence and testimony?

Simply saying Oh well, you won't find anything anyway doesn't disprove my theory, it just means you either haven't looked, or you haven't looked in the right place. If your friend hasn't looked into Nembutal enemas, especially considering the toxicology report following Marilyn Monroe's death, then she's missing a great bit chunk of info.

I'm not being 'defensive' - I am sure of my position and the very real reasons behind it.

I am beginning to suspect that you are merely a troll because you will not answer one single question but instead just repeat yourself - that is not debate.

Some reearch for a book on the subject eh Livia? :shrug::shrug::shrug:

It's obviously a work of fiction.

:joker::joker::joker:

Riding Shergar with Elvis at the back of her and Lord Lucan shouting his support from the 92nd floor of a nearby vanilla skyscraper.

:joker::joker::joker:

That's my girl.

I'm not trying to cause any bad feelings but again why are you believing these people'' why has there not been any official report to back Otash claims of these tapes i'm sure he has also made alot of money from his stories, Marilyn had lived in her house for nearly six months how did these people gain access to her property how was that possible? how would they had carried out their bugging devices in the house because Marilyn had never left that house unattended for long when she went out to the film studio, seems odd that this had all happened under Marilyn's nose without any suspicion going on?

You keep saying these tapes existed but you have never seen them or even listened to them...? seems strange that you would believe such claims, i was hoping that the channel 5 program might of had some real actual evidence to prove that these theories were actually true, but that program set out to make people believe what they had found was going to be explosive, but sadly they couldn't show the tapes because they did Not even exist?

I think your own claims maybe fiction, :unsure:

But the point is you wont be able to find anything relating to it? meaning it was simply not that fashionable in the 60's as you had thought?

I'm merely stating FACTS which you don't agree with and that is fine, as you have also demonstrated that you now feel threatened by my posts? you have not been able to provide anything substantial has being real evidence so i think i will leave this discussion for now?

I'm not actually claiming anything though... just putting forward an alternative view that has as much credence as anything you've written so far.

And my point is... enemas and laxatives were fashionable in Hollywood for decades. They probably still are, along with the cabbage soup diet, bulimia, anorexia, diuretics, appetite suppressants and all the other things people have used to keep them thin.

Anyway, we're going round in circles. One of us may be right, all of us may be wrong. The difference is that I accept that.

You have opinions and conjecture formed from interpreting information written fifty years ago. You believing them doesn't make them facts.

yes and you maybe right as well, i wasn't on here trying to start fights :)

If you're so adamant your friend has never read up on these enemas - then they clearly haven't been doing very good research considering the subject is brought up in pretty much every speculation article on Marilyn's death. A brief Google search brings me to that conclusion.

You flatter yourself. I am most certainly not threatened by your posts because up to now you have not posted anything but contentions without any corroborating evidence in support of what you contend, and yet that does not stop you from repeatedly claiming those unsupported contentions as 'FACT'.

What's more, because of the above, this hasn't been a 'discussion' , and yet, I don't want you to 'leave it', I want you to debate in a proper manner, otherwise this 'round robin' of unanswered points and unsubstantiated theories repeatedly being passed off as 'facts', is futile.

Nor do I want to have a row with you - no one on here does.

I absolutely agree with you on that she died from the OD by her own hands, some of the conspiracy camp on here have not even read any of the information about the official autopsy report... if they had it would clear up alot of their misinformation?