another sooth sayer who has the ability to see into the future :idc:





who will win the national then?

Pointless tactic LT. We all make predictions or we wouldn't believe anything at all. I'm no more claiming to know the future than you are when you state that we would be better off out of Europe :shrug:.

I have not stated that in this thread :shrug:

Only one party is offering a referendum Josh. One. Only.

Put me down in a medieval stylie...

And only to win votes back from UKIP.

Well, you seem to have insights into all this that even the leaders don't have.

Anyway, that was to Josh, who seems to think everyone's offering a referendum.

It's because of Kirk, he's having an effect on the whole forum and making it more old fashioned. (He was born in medieval times, legend has it).

Forsooth, methinks you could be right.

Biblical, the word you were searching for was Biblical

:hehe:

Please tell me.........please, what is the fcuking point of having all these so called "European benefits" if one cannot get or have the following:-

Access to a Doctor
Access to a Dentist (NHS)
Roads and/or Motorways that are not constantly blocked
Less than a 5 hour wait at any A&E
A Hospital Bed
Hospital Operation in less than a year
Medication on NHS for all treatments incl Cancer therapies.
A School within 5 miles of where you live
Less than 30 classmates
English spoken as the primary language.
House prices low enough for first time buyers to get on the housing ladder
Proper Employment contracts that give job security (end to zero hr contracts)
End to influx of cheap eastern European labour that under cuts agreed UK wage levels.

If being in the flippin EU is so dam good for us then please explain after 40 years in this failed European Project why our quality of life has gone DOWN in nearly every area of our lives......

I shudder to think how we would be living now if we had not joined the Common market back in 1975.....

:shrug::shrug::shrug:

The City expressed significant alarm when the EU first mentioned a trading tax, something that the UK has managed to beat off for now, but it will come back - Thats one very good reason not to be within Europe

On the other side, we have completely free trade with european countries. So no import/export quotas - that sort of thing can have a huge effect on business. Businesses my well be forced to move out of european cities meaning our products are not being marketed with the same prominence and vigour.

The list goes on - there are huge consequences to business but lets not forget rural communities, farmers and the like who rely on europe.

I would really like to see some serious attempt at stacking up the pros and cons of the EU - none of our politicians have come close to attempting it yet.

Most of those things have absolutely nothing to do with EU membership. You can't just blame all of the UK's **** ups on Europe and pretend that everything would be perfect if we had stayed out... We've managed to create all of these inefficiencies and mismanagements all by ourselves.

Maybe ...maybe not, but to hear people go on and on about the benefits of being in Europe bearing in mind the state of the Country, I for one struggle to see how this so called benefit has translated itself into helping or increasing the quality of life of the man on the street.

I have listed in this post and others the negative effects of being in Europe and how this has had a detrimental effect on most peoples lives.

So where are the benefits....???? can someone list them .... Anyone.... :shrug::shrug:

Nope...

Ffs, you have listed random negative things about the country and attributed them to Europe / foreigners (when they have nothing to do with it) and willfully ignored anything positivite that has been listed (such as the free flowing trade that is WORTH BILLIONS).

Can YOU explain your reasoning? Can you explain how badly maintained roads, overcrowded classrooms, high house prices, or hospital waiting times would be magically solved by not being in the EU? Zero hour contracts, maybe? Availability of cancer therapies?

Can you explain why several other EU member countries manage to NOT have these problems at the same level we do, if it's all the fault of Europe?

I'm guessing not. Because it's all down to piss poor inefficient management OF THE UK BY THE UK. You're just taking the Farage route of using immigration and the EU as a scapegoat for absolutely everything. It becomes farcical.

I'm not sure we can trust your assessment of Europe anymore Livia, you stated that the US is a bigger trading partner than the EU as part of your reasoning and have yet to even acknowledge that you were indisputably incorrect :shrug:.

I'm not sure you're "discussing" anything are you TS? Looks like a long monologue of where everyone else is going wrong to me. :-)

Well OK then....I see by your logic being in Europe has had no effect on lots of EU Countries good or bad, the good Countries are good and the Bad ones bad regardless of European membership.

So if we as appears to be the case are one of the bad ones.......why the hell are we paying millions of pounds to Brussells just to make our Country even worse...!!!

Would it not be better to either get out of Europe completely or throw ourselves onto the feet of the EU as the basket case we obviously are and plead for Money........lots and lots of money to rebuild our Roads, Railways, Schools, hospitals....etc....etc....

Now that would make more sense.....

It's hard not to when all the other side of the debate amounts to is dubious figures and "blame game" farage-style scapegoating of every single pothole, late train or wait in A&E in the country on the EU and "unfettered" immigration. It's nonsense. Every single vaguely credible political force (yes, even the Tories) know that it's nonsense. The only reason they're offering an in/out referendum is, as I said, to appease potential UKIP defectors and because they know the results will most likely be "in".

You make me laugh.........you really do, with your patronising , morally superior , holier than thou attitude to this whole issue.

So you think everythings great in the garden do you ? and that the Main political parties have done such a great job in the last 50 years.

Nothing is wrong, everybody's happy and Britain is Best.... you need to get out a bit more and take a look around. do you think the people who now HAVE to use food banks to survive would agree with you.

Or the people forced to queue for work or work on zero hour Contracts also share you strangely rosy view of things.

Or young people who finally find employment need to work for 30 years just to save a deposit for a house they will never get a mortgage for.

Or the vast numbers forever living on benefits........

There are real problems with this Country and they are getting worse........Fact

The Main political parties do not give a dam in reality, why would they , to them it's a big game. why do they care they are all wealthy public school educated toffs , why would they really give a stuff.

So when a new party comes along like UKIP and says in true Emporer's new clothes style.......hang on wait a minute things are actually pretty bad

There are no jobs, no houses, full to bursting hospitals, full to bursting schools, congested roads, congested railways .......and 15 Million more people than 50 years ago....that is demonstrable, real NOT imagined.

If someone stands up and says why are we paying millions into the EU and then being forced to take millions of people and feed,house,school and give them free healthcare.........then why is that treated as a joke ??

Maybe it's time for a radical shakeup of our mainstream policies.......because I don't think the ones we have been using for the last few decades are working.

:nono: There are only unsubstantiated 'dubious figures' from the pro-EU lobby on here T.S., along with wildly fictional claims which have no basis in fact, such as those above; "blame game" farage-style scapegoating of every single pothole, late train or wait in A&E in the country on the EU and "unfettered" immigration."

The above claim is as you say "nonsense" but only in the context of you claiming that any of the 'anti-EU' members have stated as much, because NO ONE on here has claimed the above and I challenge you to corroborate your ludicrous statement with proof that they have.

False statements - like false claims - are easily rebutted, and it does not matter one fig how loudly or persistently such statements and claims are made, it does make them true nor persuade the intelligent reader of their validity.

I cannot believe some of the prejudiced views on here written by FM's who fervently believe that they - and only they - have a monopoly on the 'Truth' and that the rest of us are unintelligent, ill-read, naive idiots.

'Unfettered immigration' is just ONE of the reasons why I desperately want to see the UK quit the EU, but it is not THE reason as you constantly allege, and your persistent use of the term 'immigration' in your rants is 'Strawman'.

There is NOT ONE VALID reason for us to remain in the UK, but many VALID reasons for the UK to exit the EU as soon as possible because from the moment that the abhorrent and traitorous Ted Heath took us into the EU (Common Market) and deceived the nation by declaring that any fears we had that "we shall in some way sacrifice independence and sovereignty were completely unjustified", the EU has been an UNMITIGATED TROJAN HORSE of a DISASTER for this country.

If you have ONE VALID reason to support your PRO-EU stance, then please post it with corroborating evidence - genuine facts and data - and I will be really pleased to concede.

I can't see you agreeing with this but allowing free movement of people within the EU has proven to be very fruitful for our economy. And lets not forget that hundreds of thousands of Brits work or retire to other EU countries. There are as many Brits living in other EU countries as there are EU citizens living in Britain.

The Fiscal effects of immigration is an interesting read http://www.cream-migration.org/publ_.../CDP_22_13.pdf

There are many benefits of remaining in the EU and they are their for you to peruse if only you are interested enough to read them.

Well said TS

This will be long but I don't care really.
David Cameron with most of the Conservatives are in fact conning the public on this one.
he has no intention of holding an in/out refrendum and he is also keeping very quiet,in this campaign, as to his conditions for holding one in the first place.

He has said repeatedly and from the start if 'he and the conservatives' get an 'overall' majority then he will hold one.
He knows that is unlikely, it looked unlikely when he said this almost 2 and a half years ago now.

he would need a majority even greater than he has now with the Lib Dems to fend off any revolt from those in the Conservative party who would never support a referendum being held that looked like getting a no vote or that was too close to call.
He would then simply say he hasn't the parliamentary arithmetic to get a referendum bill through.

Had he however been really serious about having one, around 2 years ago he could have gone and done his re-negotiations,whatever they are, and then at the election in May been able to announce a referendum date, he could have even held it on the same day as the election.
He is doing what he always does, procrastinate,putting things off well into the future, hoping circumstances somehow magic it away.

Furthermore, a great number of Conservative MPs would never sit alongside UKIP MPs in parliament,again that would give him his 'theme' of not being able to deliver some policies,especially his 'false' referendum.

He could split the Conservative party wide open were he to enter any arrangement with UKIP.
There are many Conservative MPs,really decent ones too, who are that pro Europe,they would never risk a referendum that could take the UK out.
He well knows that too.

The Conservative party has never held any referenda on the EU, not even when they first took us in,in 1973,only Labour have delivered a referendum on the issue, and then only likely because they were sure they would get the yes result.
The Conservatives overall were even against that one being held really.

I agree with you, a Conservative/UKIP govt; in any arrangement would be a disaster for the UK and really,for me, doesn't bear thinking about but I am sure, it will a strong element in the Conservative party that would never support that move, and many would possibly even give up the Conservative whip to vote on their conscience in parliament.

Another nail in the referendums coffin, a referendum promise that he knows he can never keep because he really doesn't want to, it was made just to satisfy the noisier more militant elements of his 'nasty' Conservative party.

Anyone voting Conservative that really believes Cameron would or could hold a referendum somewhere near 3 years down the line, are frankly in my view, living in cloud cukoo land.
He has no intention of doing so and I have believed that right from when he said it over 2 years ago now.

He is the 'absolute' prime example of a political con man and I wouldn't trust his word on a single thing and certainly not on this in/out referendum.
Even Nigel Farage has said, he wouldn't trust a thing David Cameron says, that is one of the things Nigel Farage has got spot on right.

When did I say that things in the UK are great? They're not, they're ****.

I just don't buy into the propaganda that this is because of the EU or immigrants.

You're right, Livia figures weren't just dubious they were straight up false. You can verify this on the Office of national Statistics website. No articles, no propaganda, no bias, cold hard figures. The EU is our number one source of trade by a mile. Livia said it was the US. It's incorrect.

Which anti eu member has blamed every little NHS and road maintenance problem on the EU? Nedusa has, in several posts. There's one a few posts up. Have a read.

As for valid and corroborated reasons, again, the figures are right there. Unencumbered trade throughout Europe is a massive economic gain. GO and LOOK AT THE ONS DOCUMENTS. I am not going to sit and spoon feed them to you. Trade within Europe accounts for as near as half of our entire global trade, it is absolutely essential, it will continue to be absolutely essential, and being out of the EU would cost untold billions in revenue. Not one serious political party wants us out of the EU. There's a reason for that. They know what the cost would be. The only party that does want us out (ukip) has proven itself time and time again to be littered with scapegoating bigots.

Toy Soldier in any Serious Debates thread :worship:

That's your contribution to this debate then...???

:joker::joker:

Perhaps Toy Soldier should run for president then, he seems to have all the answers.... Lol

Wow,I am surprised at that answer, there are rarely ever situations where there are only negatives and no positives at all.
That is something you have always said before too which I have always respected you for saying too.

There must be strong reasons why big businesses want us in the EU, just from the business angle of things.
Some aren't bothered about the EU admittedly but I feel sure you know fine well the bulk of business want the easiest access to EU markets and the UK in the EU.

You really don't believe in this world as things are,that nations are better united and connected than being separatist.
You say there are no positives at all to the EU,that is a shocker really.

For me,being part of something is far better than watching it but never having any say in it at all, and that is why with such a strong and massive place like the EU in place, I see only danger in a nation like the UK not being in it.

I also am sure you know too, that to leave but to trade with the EU, the UK would still have to accept strict EU conditions to do so but being outside we would have no control over such conditions, or how they would be applied in the future either.

He maybe,with respect, just looks at both sides and knows things are rarely all black or white but there is lots of grey inbetween all that.
I agree with all he has said.

Nothing is all negative or all positive.

Indeed it is

Hope you enjoyed it

From the linked website you provide above Red:

"CReAM is an independent and interdisciplinary research centre located in the Department of Economics at University College London."

Oh My!, INDEPENDENT: that means 'IMPARTIAL', 'NO VESTED INTEREST' doesn't it?

And the authors and all the reasearch staff are all intellectuals based in a British University as well.

Then, Gee, their pro-immigration 50 page investigatory Paper entitled; "THE FISCAL EFFECTS OF IMMIGRATION TO THE UK" has to be scrupulously fair, hasn't it?

What's more, its conclusion that European immigrants to the UK have paid more in taxes than they received in benefits, helping to relieve the fiscal burden on UK-born workers and contributing to the financing of public services" must be true also.

I can't help but notice though that this 'investigatory research paper' only deals with immigration since 2005, and then only specifically with EUROPEAN immigrants, but 'Hey Ho' as my good friend Forrest says; "Independent is as impartial does".

So who are "Cream"? Let's have a look:

Christian Dustmann, Director

Jonathan Wadsworth, Deputy Director

Ian Preston, Deputy Research Director

Marco Alfano, Senior Research Officer

Thomas Cornelissen, Senior Research Officer

Anna Okatenko, Senior Research Officer

Joseph-Simon Görlach, Research Officer

Ines Helm, Research Officer

Luigi Minale, Research Officer

Anna Raute, Research Officer

Jerome Adda, Research Fellow

Samuel Berlinski, Research Fellow

Pedro Carneiro, Research Fellow

Francesco Fasani, Research Fellow

Tommaso Frattini, Research Fellow

Albrecht Glitz, Research Fellow

Steve Machin, Research Fellow

Suphanit Piyapromdee, Research Fellow

Imran Rasul, Research Fellow

Uta Schoenberg, Research Fellow

And for maximum balance, let's add 'The Coordinator',

Maria Lambrianidou

Independent/Impartial/No Vested Interest..... Mmmm. The last 'Independent' paper I read similar to this was: "Why Victorian London Needs Waif And Stray Children" and the authors were some guys called ...err... yeah that's it, Fagin and Bill Sikes.

Please excuse me while I burst into laughter, then I will post a response complete with several links to rebuttal articles - all from as equally educated and qualified academics, and with suitably impressive facts and data as the above 'independent' paper.

the EUSSR dream is over, half of the british public need to wake up, greece, italy,spain, where the poverty rate gets higher, and higher, greece is heading for a civil war, why should any country and its people, suffer for the sake of the eu state,

Ahhh, if only we were all as enlightened and completely confident of our opinions being 100% correct like you, TS.

There are around two million Brits living and working in Europe. There are about sixty four million citizens in the UK.

It's fair to say that there are also many benefits of leaving the EU if you yourself were interested enough to read them.

It really confuses me when people say things like this. If you aren't confident of your opinions, then why bother holding them as opinions at all? We could just have every SN&D thread start with a question or statement and then have every member come in and say "I dunno!"... But that would be pointless, boring and stupid.

I mean, I disagree with easily 80% of what Kirk has to say and literally 100% of what he has to say about terrorism, religion, the EU and immigration... And he is easily as sure of himself as I am if not moreso... But I still find many of his posts to be an interesting read.

Also... depending on the topic, you can be pretty sure of yourself too Ms Livia.

There's nothing wrong with it, I'd take it over a load of lily-livered "just my opinion and I might be wrong but it may be possible or may not but maybe..." any day.

3

What does this mean Josy?