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I can see both sides because it's probably really frustrating when you have posts deleted - I remember once I noticed Vicky (I think) edited a post of mine, and she left a comment in the 'edit reason' bit, and I appreciated that, so yeah it's a good idea and everything... but I wonder if sometimes inviting a conversation around posts that have been deleted, through PM or in the thread itself, would sometimes lead to further derailment? And are there the mod resources to increase workload? I know it doesn't apply to everyone but a mod comment about a post being deleted could be seen by some as an invitation to discuss it more instead of drop it after seeing the comment. I don't know if a set rule is the way to go with it, but a judgement call on the part of the mod and maybe PMing them if you're not sure why posts have been deleted?
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Also what Jessica said.
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It can't just be....they are mods... so screw you. |
It's not their job though, it's something that they do in their free time. :shrug:
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At the end of the day none of us are paid to Moderate this forum and we all have lives and jobs outside of it. We take no real pleasure in giving infractions which often results in accusations of bias, abuse of power, pursuing a vendetta etc. etc. Sometimes we do get it wrong and I'm sure there's plenty of members on here who can say they've had an infraction/warning reversed when it was a result of a misunderstanding or after its been reviewed by other Mods/Admins. On the other hand the sheer lack of accountability and the refusal to admit any wrongdoing when some infractions are received often amazes me. The reason that posts are sometimes deleted without explanation has been touched on by a few people now but it does often just invite more focus on what's been deleted rather than moving on from it. People start asking what was deleted, they speculate about what happened, and it can also fuel misguided claims of bias. Like Dezzy said, if anyone wants to know why a post was deleted then PM one of the Mods and I'm sure they'd be happy to have a look at it. |
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In addition, WHY was I given a Warning for simply AND truthfully responding with; "My proof keeps on being removed" When YOU yourself invited proof to corroborate Jaxies claim that you were not 'playing by the rules' (or words to that effect) - which you were most certainly not Dezzy. Should a Moderator leap in and take sides in any debate which he was not previously involved in, by making UNTRUE allegations against one member in defence of another who is on the opposing side of an argument? WHERE are the lines drawn? On the subjects of pm's to Mods, I have only ever had the courtesy of TWO replies whenever I HAVE pm'd Mods with a grievance concerning Warnings, Infractions etc; and those have been one from Josy and the other from James. |
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I truly believe the PM system is designed to have a ripple effect on rapport... on forums I've been active on and forums I've modded, this worked better because both mods and reasonable users didn't require as many explanations... it means focus on the real hard cases... it also reduced nastygrams between both sides imo because the system tells you pretty much... write a professional alert to the user the decision... if they respond, reply the rule that is significant and why and leave it there. :laugh: Other than that, take it to the admin. I would not have my mods arguing back and forth with users with personal commentary (much less in threads). It can be very well intentioned and they could very well be in the right, but it just looks biased... they after all are only following the rules. The nice thing about PMs too from a mod perspective. Most complaints could be reduced down to accusations, which were harder to prove on the user end... so then easier to justify escalation (if even just to ourselves) as needed to infractions and possibly eventually be banned... eventually people give up and change their ways and move on.... make it personal and they will never give up. You'll have a counter forum developed behind your back and lots of drama could ensue off-site... I know this from experience! :laugh: On the front end, it will help filter between the reasonables, the unreasonables and the plain undesirables (trolls who you know will get themselves permabanned eventually). It invites a response, and by no means, does a mod have to respond to that response exhaustively, much do they need to respond to the response of the response... most places that did this, they left a note saying they would take their objections into consideration after the initial response... and if needed, reiterating a stated rule so that they understood that some decisions would be more final than others... nothing personal, nothing exhaustive. Because frankly, mods are a volunteer cast and they can't afford the time to provide an exhaustive explanation to how they mod the forum... most is based on personal judgement and a thick skin and you just sometimes hope you've made the right decision that won't cause too many problems with users. The work in my field is based on communication through the design of information. So for a living, I have to take into consideration the psychological behind the appearance and presentation of information on websites... small things like changing from infractions to a PM system feels more personal to the user and more inviting than merely leaving a time bomb in the explanation box... it depends on the situation though and eventually some users will exhaust their courtesy PM's and we move to an infraction and then eventually a ban situation... but in general, I think the system is good because it builds rapport with the core user... that's the main benefit from an administrative perspective... not to stop all dissension. |
In all of 2016 I have had two PMs asking about moderation on here and the most recent one was in March
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It's not about whether it is a paid position or volunteer. I volunteer on many organizations and committees in my city... and I still am accountable for my actions there...and have to address concerns from people there as well...and I do it as professionally as if it was my paid job
And I am personally tired of being told I am on a war path against the mods. I have said seversl times i wouldn't want to mod... because I realize it is a sucky job... but those doing it signed up to do so... so they are accountable for their actions in that position. I am against censorship, dictatorship, and abuse of authority. |
Just to give a bit of balance a thread I made got deleted a while back and I asked a mod why and they got back to me and as it happened it waspretty fair.
Also I've asked a few mods why I was infracted and gotten a satisfying reply. We all get passionate sometimes and make posts that could be seen as baiting or just causing drama in general. |
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I don't agree with your assessment of my state of mind when I posted, :laugh:Josy has agreed to discuss it and that's good enough for me :tongue: |
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I sent Josy a PM once about a warning... No reply.
https://66.media.tumblr.com/cac9cfbd...0ifto1_400.gif |
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Although don't try get me on weekends
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If you choose not to do that then that's on you. You agreed to follow a set of rules when you signed up, this 'right to reply' you keep mentioning isn't part of it. As the rules you agreed to stated, We are allowed to make changes without notifying you. It's up to you to get clarification on things you don't understand. Finally, mods are allowed to have an opinion on things, we're allowed to take part in discussions and that isn't going to change any time soon. |
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I actually keep forgetting that you are a mod. I am a grown man and can take my bruises, not only when I have deserved them, but also on quite a few occasions when I have not deserved them, but there is a REAL and recurring problem on this forum with unfairness, favouritism, and unethical behaviour from a Mod. Bitontheslide - an intelligent, knowledgeable and moderate member - has quit the forum because of it , despite my personal plea to him not to, and other 'Senior' members are genuinely so aggrieved by the above and feel so strongly about it, that they too are on the verge of quitting. For the most part, those who dismiss this problem, and who attack those complaining about it, are NOT even regular contributors to Serious Debates - the 'arena' where most complaints stem from, and they are also basing their dismissiveness and denials of such complaints, on the fact that that the Mod in question is a 'nice sweet guy' who plays games with them and holds similar political and other views. No ONE is saying that the Mod in question is NOT a nice guy, or that he is constantly at fault, but there ARE problems which need addressing. |
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Ugh, I don't want a notification every time a mod does something, that's so tedious.
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...no one is dismissing and no one is attacking anyone Kirk..and the bit in bold is simply not true at all...and it does actually insult members in saying it, that it factors in at all when we view things on the forum...we often do so as 'observers' in a thread ..(in any section..)...so participating is not really relevant.../in fact observing and non-participation often gives a more balanced perspective rather than involvement... |
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For the record posts asking why other posts have been removed will also be removed. If you haven't realised this by now... |
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I remember a time when we used the tools too much and there was so much complaint. Now it seems as if some establishments are afraid to use the tools, fearful of the outcry. There is no perfect solution, but I think that the mods need to be able to put to sleep matters effectively so that they can actually make headway with some of the larger issues in S&D... such as the constant verbal sniping and personal attacks... and not face dissession everytime for choosing a path... What would have to change to satisfy you and others? There are people who I have seen that float on your side (and often mine as my views are sometimes in line). LT being a big proponent for this (though not the only name I'd name), posting divisive commentary, openly trolling those they perceive to embody the core arguments of opposition and are making weaker arguments (when they are just another innocent user making courtesy commentary)... who are there clearly there purely to cause controversy, not to discuss... those users float hide behind myself and your comments when convenient... then attack others when the coast is clear... and that might be a big reason why you have potentially received infractions, because of a certain crowd.... Imo, not enough has been done about those users, and there needs to be give and take, both sides to resolve the problem... so Kirk, if they ban some of those users and have to act.... and you coincidentally receive infractions from a mod whose comments are not so eloquent, it may still potentially look very biased... but in fact, could be focused on other underlying problems in the forum... and I agree with you, a can of worms has been opened here because some very poor decision making and personal commentary has been made and cannot be undone... and that drives the discussion behind dissension. We need an agreement as to what the problems actually are so both sides feel safe to post... personally I avoid problem users and their threads like the plague and they're in my squished users list (ignore). It's possibly why I avoid infractions and why your posts are moderated... when we often have very similar viewpoints. |
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Edit: Unless you're talking about PM storage limits. Then whoops :laugh::laugh: |
You have to keep in mind a lot of the forums I've run or have been to are run by computer gurus and people who ran servers, did web development for a living ... so we used witchcraft sometimes when things weren't going our way :laugh:
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If I'm honest I really don't see the point in deleting posts - what are you trying to protect us from? We're all humans at the end of the day, humans argue, disagree and fight. Sometimes it's nasty but attempting to edit what we're saying because you either don't agree with it or it doesn't coincide with some, in a few cases, red tape type rules is parmount to Orwellian type behaviour imo.
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I always try to leave an edit note if I edit posts. And I tend to favour editing over deletions too. But when faced with a thread with 50 posts that are just bollocks arguments and sniping..much easier to delete in one go, which includes any posts quoting the argument. Which tends to then lead to 'why was my post deleted, I only said X' which starts it all up again thus making the deletions a bit pointless, which is why we delete posts of that nature too. Having said this, a fair few members prefer their posts to be deleted rather than edited. I have had hell on in PM many times for editing peoples posts :S |
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I really think that you need to stand back and take a more objective view of events just lately Ammi, because CLEARLY some people are being DISMISSIVE of our complaints, and still others are being PERSONALLY CRITICAL of us, and their comments amount to attacking us. I witnessed another thread yesterday, where decent, honourable, and long-serving members were subjected to a barrage of the most unnaceptable immature abusive comments AND mockery by supporters of the Mod in question. Opinions on here among a huge number of members are driven more by who they are 'friends with' and which 'Celebrity' they are fans of rather than any objective and dispassionate weighing of facts - in my opinion. Do you think that ANY ONE of us would 'conjure up' these problems which we have experienced just to make waves, when - as mature, intelligent adults - we KNOW that the ensuing tsunami will DROWN US? I'm sorry, but I really do not hate anyone on here - my life is too full of REAL living for that to be the case, yet I MUST stand up and be counted for what I KNOW is MY truth, and if that truth casts a friend of yours in an unfavourable light, and if you take umbrage because of it, then there is nothing that I can do. All I ask in REAL life, is that I am treated the same as the next person by those in authority - not better, not worse, but the same - and it is no different upon here. |
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